Limo photo....blobs of tissue
Vern Pascal
inch screen for my Web TV, I'm probably able to see more detail than on
an ordinary PC screen. The tissue masses apparent on the rear seat are
very interesting. I'd like to see a blowup of the top of the seat back
near Jackie's position, where it appears there are streaks of blood and
possibly brain tissue as well.
However, the blobs which you've circled near the Connolly's jumpseats
appear to me to be only flowers, rather than tissue blobs.---Vern
Barb Junkkarinen
detailed color photos of the interior of the limo I have ever seen.
Russ copied them at the Archives.
I scanned one in and sent it to Bill Hamley who has been kind enough
to put it (and a zoom) up on his website. Unfortunately, scanning it
in doesn't do it justice.....things appear rather washed out and the
fullness of the blobs is pretty much lost. But, I did a zoom and
circled some of the major blobs....that helped a bit, but it is still
not as startling as in the copy of the photo I received from Russ.
The blobs that are circled are pinky colored masses...not just colored
smears. One on the backseat (right on the front edge of the backseat)
is good-sized....probably twice as big as the buttons on the back of
the limo seat. These blobs are clearly tissue....but I can't tell if
it's all brain or if any bone can be accounted for here. Note the
blobs in the Connally seats area as well.
Here's the url:
http://members.home.net/bhamley/limodebris.htm
Thanks to both Russ and Bill.
Barb ;-)
Vern Pascal
Wish you could zoom in further on those seat blobs. I suspect that a
couple of them may be red roses from Jackie's bouquet, yet there are no
stems that I can make out, so I would like a little higher resolution
blow-up in order to make any substantive determination. OTOH, besides
the obvious profusion of blood, there apparently are masses of tissue
present. And as I mentioned in my previous post,there also appears to
be a great deal of blood staining on the top portion of the seat back
towards Jackie's side, and right where the posterior part of JFK's head
would have been positioned after being slammed backwards,following the
headshot(s). Wish we could see the car trunk just to the rear of the
seat in this area. Anyway, IMHO, the amount of blood visible on the top
of the seatback is inconsistent with a blowout of the rt.side/front of
the head, but is quite consistent with a blowout in the rear of the
head.
Maybe you can enlist Sam McClung's services. He has kindly posted great
enlargements upon request in the past. His blowups are of such a quality
that we'll be able to identify cerebral and/or cerebellar tissue! Well,
that may be
a slight exaggeration, but he's good. Regards, Vern
Barb Junkkarinen
Pascal) wrote:
Hi Vern,
>Barb;
>
>Wish you could zoom in further on those seat blobs.
Me too. :-( Will try again, but any additional zoom seemed to give me
nothing identifiable....only giant pixels. You know, the squares that
some, including one "photo expert", occasionally refers to as proof of
tampering.<g>
> I suspect that a
>couple of them may be red roses from Jackie's bouquet
Not these, Vern...no roses here. Definitely pinkish flesh colored
blobs.
>, yet there are no
>stems that I can make out, so I would like a little higher resolution
>blow-up in order to make any substantive determination. OTOH, besides
>the obvious profusion of blood, there apparently are masses of tissue
>present. And as I mentioned in my previous post,there also appears to
>be a great deal of blood staining on the top portion of the seat back
>towards Jackie's side, and right where the posterior part of JFK's head
>would have been positioned after being slammed backwards,following the
>headshot(s). Wish we could see the car trunk just to the rear of the
>seat in this area. Anyway, IMHO, the amount of blood visible on the top
>of the seatback is inconsistent with a blowout of the rt.side/front of
>the head, but is quite consistent with a blowout in the rear of the
>head.
It's so dark, all my staring at the trunk lid has yielded nothing, but
Frazier did testify at the Shaw trial that the trunk lid was covered
with lots of gore.
>
>Maybe you can enlist Sam McClung's services. He has kindly posted great
>enlargements upon request in the past. His blowups are of such a quality
>that we'll be able to identify cerebral and/or cerebellar tissue! Well,
>that may be
>a slight exaggeration, but he's good. Regards, Vern
Good idea. Why don't both you and Sam send me your snail mail
addresses and I will get color photocopies made and send them to you.
I'd like some zooming in on a couple of things to see if there is
anything identifiable as bone.....particulary one whit "thing" amongst
the blobs on the Connally seats.
Bests,
Barb :-)
>
AnthonyMarsh
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
Barb Junkkarinen
wrote:
>Can you tell if it is cerebral or cerebellar tissue?
Nope. But that doesn't mean someone couldn't. I want to see if I can
get better blowups and then work on that. Offhand....if any particular
blob is a loop, then it's cerebral.....too big for cerebellar. But, if
it's blown up bits, or if the definition just isn't good enough, then
anything is possible, I reckon.
Barb :-)
DAnde9348
>From: bar...@ix.netcom.com (Barb Junkkarinen)
>Date: Fri, 02 July 1999 04:04 PM EDT
>Message-id: <377d1680...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
>> I suspect that a
>>couple of them may be red roses from Jackie's bouquet
>
>Not these, Vern...no roses here. Definitely pinkish flesh colored blobs.
Hello Barb.....
I haven't seen the photo in question identified, but I believe you are
referring to the colored print of CE 353.....
If this pic was taken at the Whitehouse garage after the car was flown back to
Wash. D.C. do you think the "brain tissue" would still be pink after 10 hours
of exposure to air?? I believe those pink blobs must be flower petals.
I've been trying for a long time to get more researchers to look at CE 353.
Can you see the little toy stuffed mouse in the ( passenger side) far left
corner of the seat? I believe that is the "little dog" that Jean hill caught
a fleeting glimpse of .....
There is an object lying in a fold of the leather upholstery that looks very
much like a spent bullet.... I hope somebody can blow up the pic to reveal if
the object is in fact a bullet. The " bullet" is located on the rearmost fold
of the seat cushion about two or three inches to the right of the center
button.
Regards ....Walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Fri, 02 July 1999 03:17 PM EDT
>Message-id: <23168-37...@newsd-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
> And as I mentioned in my previous post,there also appears to
>be a great deal of blood staining on the top portion of the seat back
>towards Jackie's side, and right where the posterior part of JFK's head
Hello Vern,
I can't be sure what you are looking at but if you are looking at Ce 353 then
you should be able to see that the trunk lid of the car is free of blood or
brain tissue ( it is shiny) Yo should also be able to determine that most of
the gore is forward of the back seat.
walt
RAWalker
The resolution of those photographs aren't good enough to say it's even brain
tissue, let alone cerebrum or cerebellum.
Robert A. Walker, Ph.D.
Head, Department of Anatomy
New York Chiropractic College
Seneca Falls, New York
Joe Riehl
AnthonyMarsh
>
> >Can you tell if it is cerebral or cerebellar tissue?
>
> The resolution of those photographs aren't good enough to say it's even brain
> tissue, let alone cerebrum or cerebellum.
>
> Robert A. Walker, Ph.D.
> Head, Department of Anatomy
> New York Chiropractic College
> Seneca Falls, New York
Correct. That was my point. It is likewise possible for the most well
trained physician to make a mistake when only glancing at brain tissue
at a distance.
Barb Junkkarinen
wrote:
>RAWalker wrote:
>>
>> >Can you tell if it is cerebral or cerebellar tissue?
>>
>> The resolution of those photographs aren't good enough to say it's even brain
>> tissue, let alone cerebrum or cerebellum.
>>
>> Robert A. Walker, Ph.D.
>> Head, Department of Anatomy
>> New York Chiropractic College
>> Seneca Falls, New York
>
>Correct. That was my point. It is likewise possible for the most well
>trained physician to make a mistake when only glancing at brain tissue
>at a distance.
What "distance", Tony? These photos are not in the same ballpark as a
physician looking at brain tissue on a cart right in front of his
eyes. Especially the eyes of a neurosurgeon who does more than glance.
Look up the difference between cerebral and cerebellar tissue.
I agree that cerebral vs cerebellar is impossible to
tell......certainly for any of us with who knows what generation of
photo. I do not agree that it cannot be identified as body tissue.
Hopefully, color copies I have made will be as clear as the copies I
received. These are not pieces of red rose petals...wrong color, wrong
shape, wrong texture, imo.
Walt asked about the color......tissues turn a rather yucky gray color
not too long after being placed in formalin (some gallbladders have
and maintain a somewhat glistening oil on water rainbow look). I don't
see any reason why moist blobs of tissue would lose their pinky color
in a matter of a very few hours...especially when stored and
transported in a very cool manner. I've seen tissue out for a number
of hours without changing color......not to be confused with whole
bodies, of course, which rapidly turn a rather ghastly color).
Barb :-)
DAnde9348
>Date: Sun, 04 July 1999 02:16 PM EDT
>Message-id: <377fa1db....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
>Walt asked about the color......tissues turn a rather yucky gray color
>not too long after being placed in formalin (some gallbladders have
>and maintain a somewhat glistening oil on water rainbow look). I don't see any
reason why moist blobs of tissue would lose their pinky color in a matter of a
very few hours..
Hello Barb.... I'll bow to your expertise in the area of the color.... and I
agree that whatever those things are they certainly do look like blobs of
flesh.... I was basing my assessment of the color on my experience with meat.
As a hunter I have often left deer meat exposed to the air for several hours
and it always darkens a short time after exposure.... I don't save the brain
so I have no experience with brain tissue and can't say that brain tissue would
darken like muscle tissue.
Walt
JOHN WOODS,II
The photograph showing the full length view of the windshield following
removal from the frame
of the car, shows massive end to end organic
matter on the screen.
The truck area etc was probable clean at Parkland Hospital so that the
roof of the car
could be place back on for shipment back to
D.C.
A blow-up of a Stoughton photograph {?]
shows the damage done to the windshield.
I recall that the FOIA was sign by Johnson
on 4 July but the year escapes me {around 1967}.
Sincerely yours,
John R. Woods
"I speak truth, not so much as I would,
but as much as I dare; and I dare a little the more as I grow older."
{Montaigne}
AnthonyMarsh
>
> Hi Walt
>
> The photograph showing the full length view of the windshield following
> removal from the frame
> of the car, shows massive end to end organic
> matter on the screen.
>
I'd like to see what you are talking about. Please cite which photo you
mean and where I can see it. If you mean CE 351, I see no brain tissue,
just a few drops of blood on an otherwise clean windshield. If you mean
the HSCA photo, please remember that there was something dripped onto
the driver's side of the windshield years after the assassination. It is
not organic, not blood or tissue.
> The truck area etc was probable clean at Parkland Hospital so that the
> roof of the car
> could be place back on for shipment back to
> D.C.
>
We see no evidence that anyone tried to clean the outside of the
limousine.
> A blow-up of a Stoughton photograph {?]
> shows the damage done to the windshield.
>
Again, which photo? There are many Stoughton photos.
> I recall that the FOIA was sign by Johnson
> on 4 July but the year escapes me {around 1967}.
>
> Sincerely yours,
> John R. Woods
>
>
> "I speak truth, not so much as I would,
> but as much as I dare; and I dare a little the more as I grow older."
>
> {Montaigne}
--
AnthonyMarsh
times during the past few years. The little "mouse" you are talking
about
was identified by the FBI examination team as a boquet of
chrysanthemums. Those are flowers.
DAnde9348 wrote:
>
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
> >From: bar...@ix.netcom.com (Barb Junkkarinen)
--
David Wimp
Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 12:17:56 -0700 (PDT), lazu...@webtv.net (Vern
> Pascal) wrote:
>
> Hi Vern,
>
> >Barb;
> >
> >Wish you could zoom in further on those seat blobs.
>
> Me too. :-( Will try again, but any additional zoom seemed to give me
> nothing identifiable....only giant pixels. You know, the squares that
> some, including one "photo expert", occasionally refers to as proof of
> tampering.<g>
>
> > I suspect that a
> >couple of them may be red roses from Jackie's bouquet
>
> Not these, Vern...no roses here. Definitely pinkish flesh colored
> blobs.
Can you tell in the original where the edge of the jump seat is? It
would appear that the closer circled spots would be on the seat back if they
are actually on the seat.
....
--
Dave
Define thine enemy and speak for him!
DAnde9348
>Date: Sun, 04 July 1999 07:54 PM EDT
>Message-id: <377FF407...@quik.com>
>
>Walt, please try to pay attention.
Shove it Marsh.......
We have been over this hundreds of times during the past few years. The little
"mouse" you are talking about was identified by the FBI examination team as a
boquet of
>chrysanthemums. Those are flowers.
>
Marsh, if this was posted by a respected researcher I would reconsider my
observation... but since it comes from an idiot who don't know the difference
between a cartridge and a projectile, and believes there is a PROJECTILE that
fits only the 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano I won't bother to take another look at
that little mouse in the corner of the seat.
Walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Sun, 04 July 1999 03:36 PM EDT
>Message-id: <28804-37...@newsd-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>Hi Walt
>
>The photograph showing the full length view of the windshield following
removal from the frame of the car, shows massive end to end organic matter on
the screen.
Hello John....I've seen some pics of the windshield in B &W ....there is
sometime that appears to be blood on it.... i believe this confirms the
evidence of CE 353 which shows most of the gore which became airborne is
forward of the back seat.
>
>The truck area etc was probable clean at Parkland Hospital so that the roof of
the car
>could be place back on for shipment back to D.C. A blow-up of a Stoughton
photograph {?] shows the damage done to the windshield.
>
I've seen photos of buckets ( of water?) sitting beside the limo at Parkland
but I have never seen a single photo showing the car being cleaned.
I believe if the car was washed at Parkland that activity would surely have
attracted a news photographer interest. If anybody can direct me to a pic of
the car being cleaned I would sincerely appreciate it.
Walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Sun, 04 July 1999 07:51 PM EDT
>Message-id: <377FF366...@quik.com>
> If you mean
>the HSCA photo, please remember that there was something dripped onto
>the driver's side of the windshield years after the assassination. It is
>not organic, not blood or tissue.
Marsh how the hell can you tell from a photograph if the substance on the
windshield is not organic.... you dumb ass..
"organic"... means containing carbon compounds...
Walt
Barb Junkkarinen
>><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
Hi Walt,
I can't explain the color, Walt...don't know what kind of tissue it is
or what would be expected...just know it's pinkish blobs in the photo
and it sure do look like body tissue to me.
In a post I seem to have lost, you asked about the "little mouse" in
the corner. After a long time of believing that Jackie had a little
stuffed lambykins in her hands in film shot at love Field....complete
with ears and eyes...sigh....I must say that I have since seen a photo
that shows that what she had in her hands was mums. Amazing what a
photo can do. I was pretty well convinced it was flowers afterall,
then my husband went to Dallas on business and got a couple hours to
go to DP and the 6th floor. Somewhere up there he saw a blowup of a
photo taken at Love Field in which Jackie is decidedly holding mums
in her hand below the red roses. He wrote down the name of who took
the photo, but I can't remember who it was now.
Anyway.....lamby-mousey-stuffykins seems to have been mums. And, yes,
what looks like a couple of squished mums is in the JFK corner of the
seat in the photo.
As to fluffy white flowers vs fluffy white stuffed animal, it really
doesn't make any difference, of course.....Jean Hill noted and
commented on seeing something fluffy and white back there and in that
she was correct. Personally, I liked thinking it was a lambykins....oh
well, live and learn.
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
Hi Dave,
Can't see the front edge of a jumpseat in either photo. Can only see
the back of the seat JBC sat in in the photo that got posted. To me it
looks like that material there is on the floor....like maybe Nellie's
seat is folded up and the blobs there are on the floor between and
maybe just a bit behind the jumpseats.
Send me your snail address if you want color photocopies....you too,
Walt. I've been told Kinko's does a good job with their color
copies....I hope so. Will be eager to hear other's opinions.
Barb ;-)
Bill Hamley
Hi Barb,
I have a photo of the backseat that does show a bouquet of flowers in the corner,
I think that is what Walt was alluding too. I agree that lamby was a bouquet of
flowers yet given the photo from one of the films I can also see how it could
interpreted to be lamby. I think that there is an important lesson here thou, for
those who believe that photos are the best evidence, things don't always turn out
to be what they apppear to be.
Bill
JOHN WOODS,II
The photograph showing the removal of the windscreen from end to end
with the organic material was published in the HSCA Hearings. I believe
it was either the medical evidence hearings or Volume 6 the photographic
hearings.
I send a Xerox copy of this page to Marion Johnson at the National
Archives. He check his files and came up empty. There was a CE number
attached with this photograph but it too turn up nothing.
The close-up of the windscreen showing the damage maybe CE 351. The
number has been worn off the slide mount.
Regrettably, just because the picture has not been published or even
exposed does not insure the fact that the truck was not clean at
Parkland. If I was the agent having to take the limousine top out of
the trunk, I would have the lid clean off before proceeding with this
operation.
The Stoughton photograph was used as a CE.
I'm sorry I kept forgetting about the size of my collection and I just
assume that everyone is aware of the photographic evidence that is
available for research.
JOHN WOODS,II
You are qouted as say, "..please remember that there was something
dripped onto the driver's side of the windshield years after the
assassination".
You lost me on that one? Please explain.
Barb Junkkarinen
wrote:
Hi Bill,
Yup. I argued long and hard for lambykins....sure looked like a
stuffed animal in that footage from Love Field. This photo shows the
flowers in the corner, though I guess in the one I sent you to put up
on your website, it doesn't show much. The other photo is taken from
the other side of the car right toward that corner of the seat.
Barb :-)
DAnde9348
>Date: Mon, 05 July 1999 08:23 AM EDT
>Message-id: <3780A3A5...@connix.com>
Hello Barb & Bill
If I could see the "mums" that you two see i would gladly acknowledge an
error....But I see a little gray mouse with a lavender and yellow dress.....
I'm sorry .. That's what I see and I will not compromise. I don't wish to get
into a argument about this but I have never seen any documentation that there
were "Chrysanthemums" in the car. I believe there were only yellow roses for
Mrs. Connally and red roses for Mrs. Kennedy...
Walt
JOHN WOODS,II
There is about one dozen color views of the limousine taken in the
basement garage back in D.C. The stills should be available at the
National Archives 11.
Or you may want to try Andy at the Last Hurrah Bookshop as I sold a
number of these sets, including blow-ups of the limousine. He may still
have the other sets available I process for him.
Anything new?
JOHN WOODS,II
I took another look at the photographs and really I can not tell either
way.
Your right, Kennedy was given red roses but she was also given a stuff
animal (toy!!) at Love Field Airport. I believe it shows up in a few
frames from the WFAA-TV footage. You have to search for these frames
really s-l-o-w....
AnthonyMarsh
>
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
Your paranoid ramblings won't help you here. You are probably the only
person on this planet who can look at the photos of the limousine in the
Washington garage and see a mouse. Several people in this newsgroup who
used to think that it was Lambchop now admit that it is chrysanthemums.
And lying about my positions does your cause no great honor. What I told
you about the M-C bullet is not what you are claiming that I said. You
are intentionally lying about what I said in a desperate attempt to
discredit me. What I said was that the bullet and fragments found are
UNIQUELY WCC M-C ammo. Again I will challenge you and know that you can
not meet the challenge to find any other bullets with EXACTLY the same
characteristics as the bullet and fragments found which match any other
ammo than the WCC M-C ammo. Other similar bullets from other
manufacturers may be close, but they have other weights, other
cannelures, other thicknesses of jackets, etc. Again, that is how
Frazier was so quickly able to identify the bullet and fragments as
coming from 6.5 mm WCC M-C ammo. You seem to be the only person in the
world who is not able to understand basic forensic facts like this.
AnthonyMarsh
>
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
> >Date: Sun, 04 July 1999 03:36 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <28804-37...@newsd-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
> >
> >Hi Walt
> >
> >The photograph showing the full length view of the windshield following
> removal from the frame of the car, shows massive end to end organic matter on
> the screen.
>
> Hello John....I've seen some pics of the windshield in B &W ....there is
> sometime that appears to be blood on it.... i believe this confirms the
> evidence of CE 353 which shows most of the gore which became airborne is
> forward of the back seat.
> >
> >The truck area etc was probable clean at Parkland Hospital so that the roof of
> the car
> >could be place back on for shipment back to D.C. A blow-up of a Stoughton
> photograph {?] shows the damage done to the windshield.
> >
> I've seen photos of buckets ( of water?) sitting beside the limo at Parkland
> but I have never seen a single photo showing the car being cleaned.
> I believe if the car was washed at Parkland that activity would surely have
> attracted a news photographer interest. If anybody can direct me to a pic of
> the car being cleaned I would sincerely appreciate it.
>
> Walt
>
> >I recall that the FOIA was sign by Johnson
> >on 4 July but the year escapes me {around 1967}.
> >
> >
> >John R. Woods
> >
> >
> > "I speak truth, not so much as I would,
> >but as much as I dare; and I dare a little the more as I grow older."
> >
> > {Montaigne}
> >
> >
> >
> >
No one was allowed to get close enough to the limousine to take a photo
of the agent cleaning out the back seat of the limousine. All we can see
is an agent leaning into the back seat. Maybe he was only picking up
something. Maybe someone ordered the limousine to be cleaned, but
someone else countermanded those orders. But there is a photo showing
one bucket next to the limousine and there is testimony that someone
ordered someone to go clean out the limousine. Maybe instead of that
they decided to not clean out the limousine, but place the bubbletop on
the limousine to preserve the evidence and prevent people from seeing it
and photographing it.
AnthonyMarsh
>
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
> >Date: Sun, 04 July 1999 07:51 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <377FF366...@quik.com>
>
> > If you mean
> >the HSCA photo, please remember that there was something dripped onto
> >the driver's side of the windshield years after the assassination. It is
> >not organic, not blood or tissue.
>
> Marsh how the hell can you tell from a photograph if the substance on the
> windshield is not organic.... you dumb ass..
> "organic"... means containing carbon compounds...
>
> Walt
>
Hello! English here please. As usual you ignore qualifiers I place in
sentences and falsely report only what you want to snip out. Why did I
bother writing ",blood or tissue." Precisely because I wanted to make it
clear that I was referring to organic material such as blood or tissue.
And that is what the National Archives stated, that the dripped material
was not blood or tissue from the assassination, but debris which had
dripped onto the exhibit from a roof leak. Unless it was carefully
analyzed it could have even contained pigeon droppings, which would
certainly be organic. But again, you ignore the central point that this
stain had nothing to do with the assassination. You do this continually,
misquoting and lying about what I say and ignoring the facts I present.
Your only interest is in making personal attacks as if you think that
chipping away at me will make your bizarre theories sound more
reasonable. Just stick to the facts.
Pamela McElwain-Brown
i appreciate your posting those photos; i have them also, but have not been able to
look at them yet in any detail.
i believe my jfk limo web page takes a good stab at the issue of what was in the
back seat of the limo at the time of the assassination; it is ironic that prior to the
photos being taken at the white house garage, the yellow and red roses were removed,
but the little white asters were not...
pamela
http://www.primenet.com/~pamelam/jfk.html
Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jul 1999 12:23:18 GMT, Bill Hamley <bha...@connix.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
> >>
> >> On 04 Jul 1999 18:51:10 GMT, dand...@aol.com (DAnde9348) wrote:
> >>
> >> >><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
> >> As to fluffy white flowers vs fluffy white stuffed animal, it really
> >> doesn't make any difference, of course.....Jean Hill noted and
> >> commented on seeing something fluffy and white back there and in that
> >> she was correct. Personally, I liked thinking it was a lambykins....oh
> >> well, live and learn.
> >>
> >> Barb :-)
> >
> >Hi Barb,
> >
> >I have a photo of the backseat that does show a bouquet of flowers in the corner,
> >I think that is what Walt was alluding too. I agree that lamby was a bouquet of
> >flowers yet given the photo from one of the films I can also see how it could
> >interpreted to be lamby. I think that there is an important lesson here thou, for
> >those who believe that photos are the best evidence, things don't always turn out
> >to be what they apppear to be.
> >
> >Bill
>
Pamela McElwain-Brown
asters are a kind of chrysanthemum, the petals are a bit longer i
believe; i'm not a gardener...the photographs of the limo taken in the white
house garage show no traces of the red and yellow roses given to jackie and
nellie at love field. the diagram that anthony posted also shows no rose
petals in the car by the time it was drawn. the fbi wh garage photos were
supposedly taken between 1 and 4 am on 11/23; the ss photos were suppposedly
taken at 4pm on 11/23.
i just read stavis ellis' statement in _no more silence_ and he talks
very poignantly about seeing puddles of blood in the back seat and on the
floorboard of the limo as it sat at parkland, and the most memorable thing
to him was seeing a red rose lying in one of the puddles.
imho, a great deal of evidence was removed from the car prior to any
photos being taken...
pamela
http://www.primenet.com/~pamelam/jfk.html
Vern Pascal wrote:
> Pamela McElwain-Brown wrote in pat:
>
> "--It is ironic that prior to the photos being taken at the White House
> garage, the yellow and red roses were removed, but the little white
> asters were not."
>
> Hi Pam;
>
> Now you've done it! I'm confused even more than usual. "White asters"?
> What happened to the white chrysanthemums? Did they morph?
> Or were the white flowers never mums?
>
> What is your source for stating the red and yellow roses were removed
> PRIOR to the photos being taken? If this is true, then what we are
> dealing with re: Barb's "blobs" has at least been narrowed down to
> human tissue and white asters(?). Until I get the straight documented
> scoop from you, I'm still hesitant about calling those nearest blobs in
> the photo (the ones I think are on the floor between the jumpseats)
> anythiing other than what they appear to be, roses. Since I can't make
> out any stems, I'm reserving judgment until I see good blowups.
>
> By the way, do you know at what time the photo(s) were taken? Thanks,
> Vern
AnthonyMarsh
Please don't misunderstand. We know that there was a bunch of light
lavender chrysanthemums from Love Field to the Washington garage. But I
also believe Lambchop was real and was given to Jackie when the limo was
still at Love Field. What she did with it and where she placed it is a
different question. After Love Field I can not see Lambchop appearing
anywhere. I have even offered the solution that perhaps Lambchop was
made out of the chrysanthemums.
AnthonyMarsh
>
> Hi Anothony-
>
> dripped onto the driver's side of the windshield years after the
>
> You lost me on that one? Please explain.
>
On the driver's side of the windshield you can see vertical stains as
seen in the HSCA photo. Those happened after the assassination when the
windshield was in storage. Several years ago one of the networks did a
story about the National Archives moving its JFK exhibits from the old
building to the new building in College Park. It might have been some
show like Good Morning America or one of its rival or something like
Dateline NBC. A friend saw this show and said that they discussed the
windshield. The archivist said that the windshield had been damaged
during storage. He said that people had asked what the stains were,
wondering if they were blood and the Archivist said that no, it was not
blood, but something that dripped down when they had a roof leak.
Several other researchers I have talked to have said that the National
Archives had stated that these stains were caused during storage due to
something leaking down onto the exhibit. I don't think anyone has
cleaned it off or tested it to see what it was.
> Sincerely yours,
> John R. Woods
>
>
> "I speak truth, not so much as I would,
> but as much as I dare; and I dare a little the more as I grow older."
>
> {Montaigne}
--
DAnde9348
>lavender chrysanthemums from Love Field to the Washington garage. But I
>also believe Lambchop was real and was given to Jackie when the limo was
>still at Love Field. What she did with it and where she placed it is a
>different question. After Love Field I can not see Lambchop appearing
>anywhere. I have even offered the solution that perhaps Lambchop was
>made out of the chrysanthemums.
>
>--
>Anthony Marsh
Tony it pains me to have to agree with you but right is right, and I just
stumbled across a colored pic of the limo as it was leaving Love field, and
there is what appears to be a bouquet of lavender chrysanthemums lying on the
seat between JFK and Jackie.
So that documents the presence of Lavender mums in the car. They are the same
color as the dress on the little gray mouse in the corner of the seat in CE 353
so eventhough I still see a gray mouse I'm compelled to agree that the "mouse"
is actually chrysanthemums....
However that does not dispell the picture on page 11 of TKOAP. On page 11 JFK
and Jackie are both looking at a little stuffed animal that Jackie is holding
up in front of her.
Walt
Vern Pascal
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, 06 July 1999 03:31 PM EDT
>Message-id: <7348-378...@newsd-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>
> I'm still hesitant about calling those nearest blobs in the photo (the ones I
think are on the floor between the jumpseats)
>anythiing other than what they appear to be, roses. Since I can't make out any
stems, I'm reserving judgment until I see good blowups.
>
>
Hello Vern.... I'm inclined to agree with you that those "blobs" are in fact
rose petals....
Since you seem to have a pretty good copy of the colored pic I'm wondering if
you can see what appears to be a spent bullet ( projectile) lying in the
rearmost fold of the seat. It is just to the right of the center upholstery
button.
Walt
Vern Pascal
any white mums also, as reported?), and now with Pam's post, white
asters. So, is this the final entry in this floral display? And how
much of it is solid beyond the two rose bouquets?
A rose by any other name is-----------a blob?
Vern
Vern Pascal
The only photo I was going by was the one Barb posted at the beginning
of this thread, but I will probably be receiving a good copy soon. I'll
let you know if I see your bullet.---------Vern
Pamela McElwain-Brown
au contraire, monsieur...we have 12 red roses, 12 yellow roses and a
small bouqhet of pale lavender asters (aka chrysantemums, aka 'white
'mums')...
pamela
http://www.primenet.com/~pamleam/jfk.html
Pamela McElwain-Brown
from the small gif barb posted this am under the new thread 'limo photos are
up' it seems evident to me that the object in the corner of the seat is the
lavender-white asters (aka mums)...
pamela
http://www.primenet.com/~pamelam/jfk.html
DAnde9348 wrote:
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
> >From: Bill Hamley <bha...@connix.com>
> >Date: Mon, 05 July 1999 08:23 AM EDT
> >Message-id: <3780A3A5...@connix.com>
>
Pamela McElwain-Brown
AnthonyMarsh wrote:
> Vern Pascal wrote:
> >
> > Pamela McElwain-Brown wrote in pat:
> >
> > "--It is ironic that prior to the photos being taken at the White House
> > garage, the yellow and red roses were removed, but the little white
> > asters were not."
> >
> > Hi Pam;
> >
> > Now you've done it! I'm confused even more than usual. "White asters"?
> > What happened to the white chrysanthemums? Did they morph?
> > Or were the white flowers never mums?
> >
> > What is your source for stating the red and yellow roses were removed
> > PRIOR to the photos being taken? If this is true, then what we are
> > dealing with re: Barb's "blobs" has at least been narrowed down to
> > human tissue and white asters(?). Until I get the straight documented
> > scoop from you, I'm still hesitant about calling those nearest blobs in
> > the photo (the ones I think are on the floor between the jumpseats)
> > anythiing other than what they appear to be, roses. Since I can't make
> > out any stems, I'm reserving judgment until I see good blowups.
> >
> > By the way, do you know at what time the photo(s) were taken? Thanks,
> > Vern
>
> Petals from both of the bunches of roses could have and probably did
> fall off before they were taken out of the limousine. There could well
> have been petals on the floor.
>
> --
> Anthony Marsh
> The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
anthony,
i agree that after the assassination there had to be rose petals and
leaves thrown about the back seat of the limo; the yellow roses tumbled over
nellie after the fatal head shot, and the red roses slid to the floor as
jackie reached over to pull the president down. however, in this photo the
color and shape of the debris on the floor match that on the back seat, which
indicates to me that this is also flesh and blood and not rose petals...
pamela
Pamela McElwain-Brown
Sam McClung wrote:
> Pam,
>
> Also, it seems few, if any, loose petals would have been in the limo,
> either loose or attached to the original stems, after the high speed trip
> to the hospital in the open air limousine.
>
> Sam
sam,
that's a good point, that things would have flown out of the car once it
accelerated. it is surprising, in fact, that the yellow roses did not fly out the
back of the car, as they tumbled over nellie when she dropped down after z-313.
however, to whatever extent the bouquets stayed in the car, i tend to think debris
related to them, might have as well, if for no other reason than the 'puddles of
blood' on the floor and on the back seat, as described by stavis ellis when he
viewed the limo at parkland, as documented in _no more silence_.
pamela
Pamela McElwain-Brown
Vern Pascal wrote:
> Thanks, Pam;
>
> I'm not a gardener either, but asters and chrysanthemums are of
> different genera and unrelated.. I can tell them apart, and I'll go with
> mums here. Regardless, these flowers would be quite wilted by the time
> the W.H. garage pics. were taken early the following a.m., as appears to
> be the case with the flowers in the corner of the rear seat. Yet you say
> that the red and yellow roses were removed earlier along with the bone &
> bullet fragments, etc. Presumably, the roses whch had been strewn about
> the rear compartment would have been removed in order to facilitate the
> search especially for bullet fragments, If that's the case, why I
> wonder, leave gross (by gross, I mean large) blobs behind, as evidenced
> by Barb's photo showing what superficially appears to me to be roses
> lying next to the jumpseats? Anyway, are you absolutely sure that by
> the time this photo in question was taken, that the roses had already
> been removed? Regard. Vern
vern,
i am not saying that 'bone and bullet fragments were removed' by the
time the photos were taken, although that may have been the case. in the
frazier diagram that anthony posted in this thread, the back seat fragments
are identified, as well as the aster/mums and a few rose petals. i am not
seeing anything that looks like rose petals here, and, in addition, they are
shown to be closer to the back seat than to the jump seat...i am saying that
for one reason or another the yellow and red roses, as well as any petals or
stems o leaves that may have been in the car were not visible in the
photographs, and therefore imho were removed by someone...
pamela
DAnde9348
I just looked at the GIF that you posted. The notes taken during the
examination of the presidents Lincoln are revealing and startling…..
I'm sure you examined this document before posting it, so you must be aware of
the contradictions it presents to the official FBI version of the evidence
about the pieces of bullets that were found in the limo.
The document is very difficult to read as I received it on my computer.
However I was able to enlarge and clarify it so I could read it. There are
only a couple of words that are too scribbled to read but otherwise it is quite
legible.
It says…………………………………………………………. DC 78243
1:30 A.M. 11 / 22 / 63
DC Secret Service (Gov ?) Lincoln….. Presid. Limosine
Chrome strip dent ( photo taken ) …..no direction indicated.
Blood, tissue, or bone fragments scattered over interior of car and on hood and
visors. ( Both sides of right visor )
3 fragments of lead found on rear floor board. …… 2 on rug, 1 in seat hinge
channel ( jump seat)
No other fragments found in car
No bullet holes found
Inside the sketch of the car there are three notations and a depiction of where
the lead fragments were found.
On the left hand side of the rear seat is the single word "blood" .
On the floor in front of the rear seat is the note " red rose petals" and on
the right side of the rear seat is the note chrysanthemum bouquet
All notes match with the colored photo (CE 353) of the back seat of the car.
Here's what I find at odds with the official version of the event.
A) The investigator said that no direction was indicated for the bullet that
made the dent in the chrome strip. The photo he took became CE 364 and that
photo clearly indicates the bullet was fired from behind the car.
B) He said that the blood, bone, and tissue, was scattered over the interior
and onto the HOOD. It was particularly heavy on the right hand sun visor.
C) There were red rose petals on the floor ( this must be what appears to be
blobs of flesh )
D) There was a chrysanthemum bouquet on the rear seat. ( this must be what
appears to be a little gray mouse)
E) He said there were three fragments of LEAD found on the rear floorboard. He
depicted where those three fragments were found by indicating the location with
three dots on the diagram. The dots indicate that one of the fragments was
found in the hinge channel of the seat Nellie Connally was sitting in and the
other two were found under that same seat.
F) He said no other fragments were found in the car and there were no bullet
holes found.
Since Nellie Connally was sitting in that seat during the shooting one has to
wonder how the fragment could have got into the hinge channel. That hinge
and channel is at the front of the seat which allows the seat to be folded
forward. Her skirt and legs would have covered that channel during the
shooting.
A far more serious question is raised by his description of the bullet
fragments as LEAD fragments….. The bullet fragments that were allegedly found
in the car were (according to the W. R.) found in the FRONT seat and they had
copper jackets. They were given exhibit numbers CE 567 and CE 569. Since the
note that you posted says …… "No other fragments found in car" … one has to
wonder where the jacketed pieces of bullets came from?
walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, 06 July 1999 04:25 PM EDT
>Message-id: <7350-378...@newsd-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>
>So we have red roses, yellow roses, LAVENDAR chrysanthemums (were there
>any white mums also, as reported?), and now with Pam's post, white
>asters. So, is this the final entry in this floral display? And how
>much of it is solid beyond the two rose bouquets?
>
>A rose by any other name is-----------a blob?
>Vern
>
>
Hello Vern,
Tiny Marsh has posted a very interesting document regarding the interior of the
car as it was found when it was examined at 1:30 A.M. 11-23-63. I just posted
the info in that document on this thread......
walt
Barb Junkkarinen
>><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
>>From: lazu...@webtv.net (Vern Pascal)
>>Date: Tue, 06 July 1999 03:31 PM EDT
>>Message-id: <7348-378...@newsd-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>>
>>
>
>> I'm still hesitant about calling those nearest blobs in the photo (the ones I
>think are on the floor between the jumpseats)
>>anythiing other than what they appear to be, roses. Since I can't make out any
>stems, I'm reserving judgment until I see good blowups.
>>
>>
>Hello Vern.... I'm inclined to agree with you that those "blobs" are in fact
>rose petals....
>
>Since you seem to have a pretty good copy of the colored pic I'm wondering if
>you can see what appears to be a spent bullet ( projectile) lying in the
>rearmost fold of the seat. It is just to the right of the center upholstery
>button.
>
>Walt
Hi Walt,
I think I see what you are looking at....looks shiny on one end and
sort of pointed? I can't tell what it is though.
Barb :-)
Martin Shackelford
Martin
DAnde9348 wrote:
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
> >From: AnthonyMarsh <ama...@quik.com>
> >Date: Sun, 04 July 1999 07:54 PM EDT
> >Message-id: <377FF407...@quik.com>
> >
> >Walt, please try to pay attention.
>
> Shove it Marsh.......
>
> We have been over this hundreds of times during the past few years. The little
> "mouse" you are talking about was identified by the FBI examination team as a
> boquet of
> >chrysanthemums. Those are flowers.
> >
> Marsh, if this was posted by a respected researcher I would reconsider my
> observation... but since it comes from an idiot who don't know the difference
> between a cartridge and a projectile, and believes there is a PROJECTILE that
> fits only the 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano I won't bother to take another look at
> that little mouse in the corner of the seat.
>
> Walt
--
Martin Shackelford
"You're going to find that many of the truths we
cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
-Obi-Wan Kenobi
"You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
AnthonyMarsh
>
> Pamela McElwain-Brown wrote in pat:
>
> "--It is ironic that prior to the photos being taken at the White House
> garage, the yellow and red roses were removed, but the little white
> asters were not."
>
> Hi Pam;
>
> Now you've done it! I'm confused even more than usual. "White asters"?
> What happened to the white chrysanthemums? Did they morph?
> Or were the white flowers never mums?
>
> What is your source for stating the red and yellow roses were removed
> PRIOR to the photos being taken? If this is true, then what we are
> dealing with re: Barb's "blobs" has at least been narrowed down to
> human tissue and white asters(?). Until I get the straight documented
> the photo (the ones I think are on the floor between the jumpseats)
> anythiing other than what they appear to be, roses. Since I can't make
> out any stems, I'm reserving judgment until I see good blowups.
>
Sam McClung
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, 06 July 1999 10:21 PM EDT
>Message-id: <3782b958....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
>Hi Walt,
>
>I think I see what you are looking at....looks shiny on one end and
>sort of pointed? I can't tell what it is though.
>
>Barb :-)
>
>
Hello Barb,
You are describing the object that I see.
It appears to be silvery- copper colored and it has what appears to be a
cannelure groove around it. If it is a bullet it is nearly pristine just like
CE 399......
walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, 06 July 1999 08:33 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990706203330...@ng-fe1.aol.com>
>
>
> 1:30 A.M. 11 / 22 / 63> I was able to enlarge and clarify it so I could read
it. There are
>only a couple of words that are too scribbled to read but otherwise it is
>quite
>legible.
>
>It says…………………………………………………………. DC 78243
>
> 1:30 A.M. 11 / 22 / 63
>
THE DATE IS A TYPO ERROR BY ME.
The date on the document is 11 /23 / 63
Sorry .....
Walt
Sam McClung
> sam,
> that's a good point, that things would have flown out of the car once it
> accelerated. it is surprising, in fact, that the yellow roses did not fly out the
> back of the car, as they tumbled over nellie when she dropped down after z-313.
> however, to whatever extent the bouquets stayed in the car, i tend to think debris
> related to them, might have as well, if for no other reason than the 'puddles of
> blood' on the floor and on the back seat, as described by stavis ellis when he
> viewed the limo at parkland, as documented in _no more silence_.
>
> pamela
Pam,
I'll add I found the photos of the back seat quite graphic,
and reminiscent of an extremely similar scene I saw once
of a car in Germany which struck a tree head on at around
90 miles per hour.
Some of the driver's brain matter was on the back seat and
looked very much like the matter on the back seat in the limo
photos.
Sam
Vern Pascal
stuffed animal.
It was sitting in JFK's lap during the motorcade. It was
radio-controlled and when the limo reached DP Lambykins fired a
paralyzing self-absorbing dart into JFK's throat. It was then designed
to self destruct into what appeared to be a bunch of flowers.
Well, I said it was an explanation. I didn't say it was any
good.----------------------------------Vern
Barb Junkkarinen
<pam...@primenet.com> wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------53E6AF69308FBD68D8BE9180
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Absolutely...I agree.
Barb :-)
>
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>
>begin: vcard
>fn: Pamela McElwain-Brown
>n: McElwain-Brown;Pamela
>org: in broad daylight research
>email;internet: pam...@primenet.com
>note: visit my website at http://www.primenet.com/~pamelam/index.html, also my JFK site at http://www.primenet.com/~pamelam/jfk.html
>x-mozilla-cpt: ;0
>x-mozilla-html: FALSE
>version: 2.1
>end: vcard
>
>
>--------------53E6AF69308FBD68D8BE9180--
>
Vern Pascal
Barb Junkkarinen
Hi Vern,
Seems to me I recall one Parkland person...physician or
nurse...commenting on how sad it was to see the bloodied roses in
TR1...and that someone picked them up and put them in the trascan in
there.
Anybody else recall that?
The roses were *quite* red....not pinkish like the blobs in the photo.
Do you still think they may be rose petals and not tissue?
Bests,
Barb :-)
>
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, 06 July 1999 08:42 AM EDT
>Message-id: <3781F9C8...@primenet.com>
>walt,
> from the small gif barb posted this am under the new thread 'limo photos
>are
>up' it seems evident to me that the object in the corner of the seat is the
>lavender-white asters (aka mums)...
>pamela
Hello Pam,
Yes, I agree that what I see as a little gray mouse dressed in a lavender and
yellow dress is probably the bouquet of mums that can be seen lying on the rear
seat between JFK and Jackie in the car at Love field.
Walt
Martin Shackelford
with the flowers, as she gets into the limousine.
Martin
AnthonyMarsh
>
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
Cannelure? Please, get serious.
AnthonyMarsh
>
> Pamela McElwain-Brown wrote in pat:
>
> "--It is ironic that prior to the photos being taken at the White House
> garage, the yellow and red roses were removed, but the little white
> asters were not."
>
> Hi Pam;
>
> Now you've done it! I'm confused even more than usual. "White asters"?
> What happened to the white chrysanthemums? Did they morph?
> Or were the white flowers never mums?
>
> What is your source for stating the red and yellow roses were removed
> PRIOR to the photos being taken? If this is true, then what we are
> dealing with re: Barb's "blobs" has at least been narrowed down to
> human tissue and white asters(?). Until I get the straight documented
> scoop from you, I'm still hesitant about calling those nearest blobs in
> the photo (the ones I think are on the floor between the jumpseats)
> anythiing other than what they appear to be, roses. Since I can't make
> out any stems, I'm reserving judgment until I see good blowups.
>
> By the way, do you know at what time the photo(s) were taken? Thanks,
> Vern
Petals from both of the bunches of roses could have and probably did
fall off before they were taken out of the limousine. There could well
have been petals on the floor.
--
AnthonyMarsh
>
> Hello Tony,
>
> I just looked at the GIF that you posted. The notes taken during the
> examination of the presidents Lincoln are revealing and startling…..
>
> I'm sure you examined this document before posting it, so you must be aware of
> the contradictions it presents to the official FBI version of the evidence
> about the pieces of bullets that were found in the limo.
>
> The document is very difficult to read as I received it on my computer.
> only a couple of words that are too scribbled to read but otherwise it is quite
> legible.
>
> It says…………………………………………………………. DC 78243
>
> 1:30 A.M. 11 / 22 / 63
>
>
> Chrome strip dent ( photo taken ) …..no direction indicated.
>
> Blood, tissue, or bone fragments scattered over interior of car and on hood and
> visors. ( Both sides of right visor )
>
> 3 fragments of lead found on rear floor board. …… 2 on rug, 1 in seat hinge
> channel ( jump seat)
>
> No other fragments found in car
> No bullet holes found
>
> Inside the sketch of the car there are three notations and a depiction of where
> the lead fragments were found.
>
> On the left hand side of the rear seat is the single word "blood" .
> On the floor in front of the rear seat is the note " red rose petals" and on
> the right side of the rear seat is the note chrysanthemum bouquet
>
> All notes match with the colored photo (CE 353) of the back seat of the car.
>
> Here's what I find at odds with the official version of the event.
>
> A) The investigator said that no direction was indicated for the bullet that
> made the dent in the chrome strip. The photo he took became CE 364 and that
> photo clearly indicates the bullet was fired from behind the car.
>
It is obvious even to a kindergartner that the bullet hit the chrome
strip from behind, so that was never an issue. The direction the bullet
came from could have been an issue. Did the bullet come from above or
below? Did it come from the left or the right? If that could be
determined, it could potentionally be very important in piecing together
the scenario of the shooting. If the direction was from the left and
above that would surely indicate another shooter shooting from a
different location. If the bullet came from above and to the right, that
could be the missed shot. If the bullet came from below and to the right
it could be one of the bullets which hit Kennedy or Connally and failed
to exit the limousine. Etc. What Frazier was saying was that a cursory
examination could not determine where the bullet came from which caused
the dent. So his observation is correct.
> B) He said that the blood, bone, and tissue, was scattered over the interior
> and onto the HOOD. It was particularly heavy on the right hand sun visor.
>
Yes? What seems strange to me is that there should be blood and tissue
on the hood, but only a few drops of blood on the windshield.
> C) There were red rose petals on the floor ( this must be what appears to be
> blobs of flesh )
Could be. But we need better color control on the processing of the
photos to start to analyze the suspect bits.
> D) There was a chrysanthemum bouquet on the rear seat. ( this must be what
> appears to be a little gray mouse)
Yes, And I often wonder why it was left on the back seat when other
things were taken out.
> E) He said there were three fragments of LEAD found on the rear floorboard. He
> depicted where those three fragments were found by indicating the location with
> three dots on the diagram. The dots indicate that one of the fragments was
> found in the hinge channel of the seat Nellie Connally was sitting in and the
> other two were found under that same seat.
I can't find any discrepancies there.
> F) He said no other fragments were found in the car and there were no bullet
> holes found.
>
No obviously visible bullet holes. People suspect that there was a
bullet hole in the carpet.
> Since Nellie Connally was sitting in that seat during the shooting one has to
> wonder how the fragment could have got into the hinge channel. That hinge
> and channel is at the front of the seat which allows the seat to be folded
> forward. Her skirt and legs would have covered that channel during the
> shooting.
>
One possibility is that the fragments were on Connally's clothes or in
his body and fell into the channel when he was removed from the
limousine.
> A far more serious question is raised by his description of the bullet
> fragments as LEAD fragments….. The bullet fragments that were allegedly found
> in the car were (according to the W. R.) found in the FRONT seat and they had
> copper jackets. They were given exhibit numbers CE 567 and CE 569.
Yes, I think the three little fragments were from the base of a bullet,
only the lead core. And remember that one of the fragments found in the
front seat area was ONLY a jacket. It was missing its lead core. That
lead core had to go somewhere. Part of it may have been deposited in
Connally or fell onto Connally.
Since the
> note that you posted says …… "No other fragments found in car" … one has to
> wonder where the jacketed pieces of bullets came from?
>
Very shortly after (I don't remember the exact time) the limousine was
parked back in the WH garage, the Secret Service agents found the two
large fragments in the front seat compartment. So those were already in
evidence before the FBI started its examination at about 1 AM.
No one has ever explained where the rest of that bullet went, nor found
any of it.
> walt
AnthonyMarsh
>
> >Please don't misunderstand. We know that there was a bunch of light
> >lavender chrysanthemums from Love Field to the Washington garage. But I
> >also believe Lambchop was real and was given to Jackie when the limo was
> >still at Love Field. What she did with it and where she placed it is a
> >different question. After Love Field I can not see Lambchop appearing
> >anywhere. I have even offered the solution that perhaps Lambchop was
> >made out of the chrysanthemums.
> >
> >--
> >Anthony Marsh
>
> Tony it pains me to have to agree with you but right is right, and I just
> stumbled across a colored pic of the limo as it was leaving Love field, and
> there is what appears to be a bouquet of lavender chrysanthemums lying on the
> seat between JFK and Jackie.
> So that documents the presence of Lavender mums in the car. They are the same
> color as the dress on the little gray mouse in the corner of the seat in CE 353
> so eventhough I still see a gray mouse I'm compelled to agree that the "mouse"
> is actually chrysanthemums....
>
> However that does not dispell the picture on page 11 of TKOAP. On page 11 JFK
> and Jackie are both looking at a little stuffed animal that Jackie is holding
> up in front of her.
>
> Walt
Correct. And the newsreel footage at Love Field shows Jackie receiving
the little cloth puppet. Don't be confused by the name Lambchop. That is
just the nickname that several researchers gave to it out of a fondly
affectionate remembrance of Shari Lewis and her favorite hand puppet
named Lambchop. The one given to Jackie was probably supposed to be a
dog. If Jackie kept it in the limousine throughout the motorcade, it
could not be seen from Jean Hill's angle. And by the time the limousine
got back to the Washington garage it appears that several things were
taken out of the limousine. The only thing left in the back seat by the
time the photos were taken was the boquet of chrysanthemums. So we can't
be sure when Lambchop was taken out. Jackie may have given it to an aide
before leaving Love Field. Or Lambchop could have been buried under all
the flowers.
This is also a reminder that we need to find all the evidence so that we
don't overlook any clues. There must have been dozens of people with
movie cameras at Love Field and perhaps one of them accidentally caught
a scene of Jackie giving Lambchop to an aide. That may seem a trivial
point to most researchers, but it might be a vital clue to some
researchers who are interested in this aspect.
DAnde9348
>Date: Fri, 09 July 1999 08:34 PM EDT
>Message-id: <378694FC...@quik.com>
>
>
>DAnde9348 wrote:
>>
>> >Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
>> >From: bar...@ix.netcom.com (Barb Junkkarinen)
>> >Date: Tue, 06 July 1999 10:21 PM EDT
>> >Hi Walt,
>> >
>> >I think I see what you are looking at....looks shiny on one end and
>> >sort of pointed? I can't tell what it is though.
>> >
>> >Barb :-)
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Hello Barb,
>>
>> You are describing the object that I see.
>>
>> It appears to be silvery- copper colored and it has what appears to be a
>> cannelure groove around it. If it is a bullet it is nearly pristine just
>like
>> CE 399......
>>
>> walt
>
>Cannelure? Please, get serious.
>
>--
>Anthony Marsh
Tony, If you can't see the oject in question then go pick buggers or entertain
yourself in some other manner..... we don't need your sarcastic remarks.....
Walt
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Tony Pitman wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Jul 1999 23:54:22 GMT, AnthonyMarsh <ama...@quik.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Walt, please try to pay attention. We have been over this hundreds of
> >times during the past few years. The little "mouse" you are talking
> >about
> >was identified by the FBI examination team as a boquet of
> >chrysanthemums. Those are flowers.
>
> Wouldn't a boquet of chrysanths look somewhat bigger than a "little
> mouse"?
>
> Tony
>
> >
> >
> >DAnde9348 wrote:
> >>
> >> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: Limo photo....blobs of tissue
> >> >From: bar...@ix.netcom.com (Barb Junkkarinen)
> >> >Date: Fri, 02 July 1999 04:04 PM EDT
> >> >Message-id: <377d1680...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
> >>
> >> >> I suspect that a
> >> >>couple of them may be red roses from Jackie's bouquet
> >> >
> >> >Not these, Vern...no roses here. Definitely pinkish flesh colored blobs.
> >>
> >> Hello Barb.....
> >>
> >> I haven't seen the photo in question identified, but I believe you are
> >> referring to the colored print of CE 353.....
> >>
> >> If this pic was taken at the Whitehouse garage after the car was flown back to
> >> Wash. D.C. do you think the "brain tissue" would still be pink after 10 hours
> >> of exposure to air?? I believe those pink blobs must be flower petals.
> >>
> >> I've been trying for a long time to get more researchers to look at CE 353.
> >>
> >> Can you see the little toy stuffed mouse in the ( passenger side) far left
> >> corner of the seat? I believe that is the "little dog" that Jean hill caught
> >> a fleeting glimpse of .....
> >>
> >> There is an object lying in a fold of the leather upholstery that looks very
> >> much like a spent bullet.... I hope somebody can blow up the pic to reveal if
> >> the object is in fact a bullet. The " bullet" is located on the rearmost fold
> >> of the seat cushion about two or three inches to the right of the center
> >> button.
> >>
> >> Regards ....Walt
> >
> >--
> >Anthony Marsh
> >The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
--
Tony Pitman
Pamela McElwain-Brown
this is a small bouquet of lavender asters imho (like mums with longer petals) and
only part of it is still visible in ce353...good point -- where did the rest of THAT
go?
pamela
http://www.primenet.com/~pamelam/jfk.html