remington fireball .221 xp-100
Sam McClung
can upload here or to me in e-mail? thanx
Sam McClung
Greg Jaynes
>
> p.s. preferably one with the related scope mounted on it
Sam,
I have a picture of a Remington Fireball .221 xp-100
but the picture was altered by John Rademacher to say
.222 because he was the guy who found the .222 shell
casings in Dealey plaza. He had this theory that an
xp-100 that fired .222 shells was used to shoot president
Kennedy. Sounds similar to the Files story I know but
it was a completely different theory and he was pushing
it before Files came out talking about using a Fireball.
Since you asked for a picture of a .221 you probably know
that the gun did not fire .222 shells normally but can be
modified to fire the .222.
If the Files story were true it looks like an amazing
coincidence that the guy who found the .222 shell casings
correctly guessed the right gun to use in his theory.
You see, there is no reason to have associated a .222
shell casing with the Remington Fireball which fired .221
when they were first released. The new ones fire 7mm.
http://www.flash.net/~jaynes/xp-100.jpg
I got this picture from Dave Perry's website.
--
Greg Jaynes
http://www.flash.net/~jaynes
THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
Sam McClung
Thanks for the photo. You wouldn't also happen to have a photo of the
same pistol with scope, only showing the pistol as someone looks at it
from the front? If not, maybe someone else reading this does.
Sam
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
The Remington .221 Fireball uses what is a shortened Remington .222 case.
Before Remington had the ammunition made specifically for the weapon, or for
those that didn't care to buy the Remington ammo, all that was needed to
adapt the .222 to .221 was to shorten it and make a new neck on the case.
Easily done. The current US M-16/AR-15 ammunition can be altered also in this
manner. A full length .222 Remington will -not- fit in the .221 Remington
chamber of the XP-100.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
I had a Fireball in 7IHMSA caliber... .300 Savage shell full-length, necked
down to 7mm. It was nearly impossible to fire this weapon holding it like a
pistol, out in front of me. It was heavy, and needed two hands to point
poorly at a stationary target. The recoil was enough to tell me I didn't want
that twice. Fired from the Creedmore position (supine, barrel rested on the
right side of the right leg) it was accurate and easy to shoot. But as a
choice to assassinate anyone, it would be my last choice. And firing from
where it is said to have been fired at JFK is flatly impossible. With a scope
and the inherent difficulties of aiming that, -and- the problems of holding
the pistol at all, Files' story is fantasy. And there's no medical evidence
to back him up, had he been there.
John Ritchson
[snip]
> The Remington .221 Fireball uses what is a shortened Remington .222 case.
> Before Remington had the ammunition made specifically for the weapon, or for
> those that didn't care to buy the Remington ammo, all that was needed to
> adapt the .222 to .221 was to shorten it and make a new neck on the case.
> Easily done. The current US M-16/AR-15 ammunition can be altered also in this
> manner. A full length .222 Remington will -not- fit in the .221 Remington
> chamber of the XP-100.
>
Greetings, Wayne Leek invented the Fireball XP-100, all of the
prototype weapons being *Originally* chambered for the Remington .222
cartridge which was subsequently modified by Leek to the .221 because
in his own words, "The .222 cartridge used a bit more powder than was
necessary for a weapon with a 10-3/4 inch barrel."
I no longer recall the actual number, but according to Remington's
own records, a number of the original .222 Fireballs were in fact
sold prior to the conversion to the .221 cartridge.
With Regard,
John Ritchson(SSGT. 499th TC USATC HG US Army Class of 69)
(GunSmith/Ballistician,Black Eagle Gun Works)
(Survivor, SE Asian Games, 11BRAVO7,Tet 1970)
************************************************************
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that
heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it) but
"That's Funny..." Isaac Asimov
************************************************************
John Ritchson
[snip]
> I had a Fireball in 7IHMSA caliber... .300 Savage shell full-length, necked
> down to 7mm. It was nearly impossible to fire this weapon holding it like a
> pistol, out in front of me. It was heavy, and needed two hands to point
> poorly at a stationary target. The recoil was enough to tell me I didn't want
> that twice. Fired from the Creedmore position (supine, barrel rested on the
> right side of the right leg) it was accurate and easy to shoot. But as a
> choice to assassinate anyone, it would be my last choice. And firing from
> where it is said to have been fired at JFK is flatly impossible. With a scope
> and the inherent difficulties of aiming that, -and- the problems of holding
> the pistol at all, Files' story is fantasy. And there's no medical evidence
> to back him up, had he been there.
Greetings, Simply because you have difficulty managing your modified
Fireball has no bearing on the Files scenerio.
I found the .222 version to be quite manageable with one hand, having
no more recoil than my .44 magnum, and in a 2 handed combat stance it
can thread a needle at 150 yards.
Up to those ranges, the Fireball would by a perfect choice for
an assassination weapon if portability and concealability were at
issue.
Bob Vernon
When we interviewed Fireball inventor Wayne Leek, he took us to a firing
range in Arizona. There he had a shooter demonstrate the XP-100 firing at
metal silhoutettes (spelling?). We were amazed at the power and accuracy
and at the slight, SLIGHT, wisp of smoke that it exhibited. Furthermore the
man who demonstrated the weapon appeared to be crippled and used crutches or
something like that to support himself. He had no trouble at all firing the
XP very accurately.
Further, we talked with a man named Joe Valentine in LA. Mr. Valentine is a
Remington XP-100 bench rest champion and we talked with other XP champion
shooters in Texas and Alabama. All informed us the XP could certainly have
been utilized in the JFK hit and that the accuracy of the weapon, and power,
were both amazing.
Sarge, you're right on the money.....as usual.
Bob Vernon
John Ritchson <jo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
3638E7...@worldnet.att.net...
r...@iname.com
Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
> Sam McClung wrote:
> >
> > p.s. preferably one with the related scope mounted on it
>
> Sam,
>
> I have a picture of a Remington Fireball .221 xp-100
> but the picture was altered by John Rademacher to say
> .222 because he was the guy who found the .222 shell
> casings in Dealey plaza. He had this theory that an
> xp-100 that fired .222 shells was used to shoot president
> Kennedy. Sounds similar to the Files story I know but
> it was a completely different theory and he was pushing
> it before Files came out talking about using a Fireball.
>
> Since you asked for a picture of a .221 you probably know
> that the gun did not fire .222 shells normally but can be
> modified to fire the .222.
>
> If the Files story were true it looks like an amazing
> coincidence that the guy who found the .222 shell casings
> correctly guessed the right gun to use in his theory.
>
> You see, there is no reason to have associated a .222
> shell casing with the Remington Fireball which fired .221
> when they were first released. The new ones fire 7mm.
>
> http://www.flash.net/~jaynes/xp-100.jpg
Once again, Mr. Jaynes fails to do research.
I suggest you ask Sarge John Ritchson about the history of the Fireball. Mr.
Jaynes has it wrong.
Mr. Jaynes also totally fabricates Mr. Rademacher's dicovery of the casings on
the knoll.
Perhaps when Mr. Jaynes learns to read and to understand what he reads, he
will improve.
Until then, please forgive him.
He seems like such a nice man on the phone.
Bob Vernon‰
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Greg Jaynes
>
> pjb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > The Remington .221 Fireball uses what is a shortened Remington .222 case.
> > Before Remington had the ammunition made specifically for the weapon, or for
> > those that didn't care to buy the Remington ammo, all that was needed to
> > adapt the .222 to .221 was to shorten it and make a new neck on the case.
> > Easily done. The current US M-16/AR-15 ammunition can be altered also in this
> > manner. A full length .222 Remington will -not- fit in the .221 Remington
> > chamber of the XP-100.
> >
> Greetings, Wayne Leek invented the Fireball XP-100, all of the
> prototype weapons being *Originally* chambered for the Remington .222
> cartridge which was subsequently modified by Leek to the .221 because
> in his own words, "The .222 cartridge used a bit more powder than was
> necessary for a weapon with a 10-3/4 inch barrel."
> I no longer recall the actual number, but according to Remington's
> own records, a number of the original .222 Fireballs were in fact
> sold prior to the conversion to the .221 cartridge.
This is contrary to the information I obtained from Remington.
They mailed me a sheet outlining the type and number of
xp-100's sold from 1963. None of those were .222's.
In fact I asked Remington's customer support and was told
they never released a .222. Bob Vernon had it on his web site,
maybe still does.
You usually sound like you know what your talking about so
I'm confused by this contradiction.
>
> With Regard,
> John Ritchson(SSGT. 499th TC USATC HG US Army Class of 69)
> (GunSmith/Ballistician,Black Eagle Gun Works)
> (Survivor, SE Asian Games, 11BRAVO7,Tet 1970)
> ************************************************************
> The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that
> heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it) but
> "That's Funny..." Isaac Asimov
> ************************************************************
--
Greg Jaynes
As I just posted to John, isn't what he is saying
a contradiction of that information they gave me
that you seemed so excited about?
John Ritchson
[snip]
> This is contrary to the information I obtained from Remington.
> They mailed me a sheet outlining the type and number of
> xp-100's sold from 1963. None of those were .222's.
> In fact I asked Remington's customer support and was told
> they never released a .222. Bob Vernon had it on his web site,
> maybe still does.
>
> You usually sound like you know what your talking about so
> I'm confused by this contradiction.
Greetings, I suppose that would be technically correct as Remington
didn't put their name to the Fireball XP-100 until Wayne Leek released
the final .221 version in late 62.
The records I saw related the sales to various military organizations
who were interested in the Fireball's potential as a portable,
concealable sniper system. However, I no longer have access to the file
but I suspect it was never intended for public consumption.
A gunsmith of the caliber of Wayne Leek would hardly need to make
nearly 100 prototypes in order to refine the weapon. Hell, he probably
had it down after the first. So ask yourself, what happened to the
other 98 or so? A few were destroyed during testing, but the bulk
were transfered to special interest groups for field evaluation.
The file I saw, plus the fact that Leek never did account for
the disposition of all of the original .222 Fireballs, leads me
to believe that they in fact were transfered in a somewhat neferious
manner.
Bob Vernon
Mr. Jaynes is not very in-depth in his research here but that is often the
case. He does get lucky, at least once that I know of.......
As usual Sarge, you're right on the money.
Wayne Leek was a fountain of information, perhaps the most interesting story
he told us was about the call he received from the CIA one day in 1961 or 62
to inform him that a man would be arriving at Remington the following day
and to give him anything he wants. Sure 'nough, the next day the man
arrived and was given a tour of the available weapons. The guy bought over
a million dollars worth of weapons with his signature. The purchase
included Remington rifles, ammo, XP-100 .221s and PROTOTYPE .222s. A few
weeks later Leek and others in the factory received gifts. They were
packages of cigarettes in expensive gold foil wrappers stampled with the
initials of the sender - LBJ.
Mr. Leek told us they particularly liked the "fleschettes" which left their
victims looking like hamburger meat. From what we learned fleschettes
contained tiny razor like metal objects that cut into their victims like a
meat grinder at high speed. Not a pretty site, I'm sure.
The document Mr. Jaynes accidently secured from Remington is a valuable
document to our case for it proves the year that Mr. Files Fireball was
made. You see, Sarge, and this will be the first time Mr. Jaynes probably
understands, we have tracked down the gun Mr. Files used on 11/22/63.
As the CIA backed writer Posner once bragged..."Case Closed" - not yet Mr.
Posner, not yet....but much to your dismay and to the dismay of your
sponsors at Langley...we're very close now. VERY close.
Bob Vernon
John Ritchson <jo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
363986...@worldnet.att.net...
r...@iname.com
Greg Jaynes
>
> Sarge:
>
> Mr. Jaynes is not very in-depth in his research here but that is often the
> case. He does get lucky, at least once that I know of.......
>
> As usual Sarge, you're right on the money.
>
> Wayne Leek was a fountain of information, perhaps the most interesting story
> he told us was about the call he received from the CIA one day in 1961 or 62
> to inform him that a man would be arriving at Remington the following day
> and to give him anything he wants. Sure 'nough, the next day the man
> arrived and was given a tour of the available weapons. The guy bought over
> a million dollars worth of weapons with his signature. The purchase
> included Remington rifles, ammo, XP-100 .221s and PROTOTYPE .222s. A few
> weeks later Leek and others in the factory received gifts. They were
> packages of cigarettes in expensive gold foil wrappers stampled with the
> initials of the sender - LBJ.
> The document Mr. Jaynes accidently secured from Remington is a valuable
> document to our case for it proves the year that Mr. Files Fireball was
> made. You see, Sarge, and this will be the first time Mr. Jaynes probably
> understands, we have tracked down the gun Mr. Files used on 11/22/63.
Wait a minute. Files said the gun he claimed to have used was a MODIFIED .221.
Why would his people have to modify a .221 if there were already .222's available?
Remember? The .221's kept blowing up in their faces according to Files.
So what difference does it make that there were pre production RFXP-100's
chambered for the .222? Files did not say his Fireball was a PROTOTYPE.
gm...@jfk.org
someone modify it by making it thinner and, therefore, weaker?
--
Gary Mack
Archivist
The Sixth Floor Museum
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
> John Ritchson wrote:
> > I no longer recall the actual number, but according to Remington's
> > own records, a number of the original .222 Fireballs were in fact
> > sold prior to the conversion to the .221 cartridge.
>
> They mailed me a sheet outlining the type and number of
> xp-100's sold from 1963. None of those were .222's.
> In fact I asked Remington's customer support and was told
> they never released a .222. Bob Vernon had it on his web site,
> maybe still does.
>
> You usually sound like you know what your talking about so
> I'm confused by this contradiction.
>
It's lapses like that, and the strange story of the scope interfering with
the fixed sights and other indications of "gun-shop blow-hard expertise" that
keep a lot of us from paying all that much attention to John's
pronouncements.
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
the Files story is still in beta-test. Once all these obvious inconsistencies
are glossed over (it's been what, 5 years now), the "truth
hahahahahahahahaahha
Atlasrecrd
Greg, had you ever heard of a Fireball before this?
I hadn't. If Files had not had experience with one,
where he have gotten all his knowledge of it?
Bob Vernon
not there. Relax.
Mr. Jaynes: Files did not say IN THE VIDEO that the gun was a prototype.
He told us that in our numerous interviews and communications with him. He
also made it perfectly clear that the weapon he used was a .221 MODIFIED to
shoot .222 shells. He had his "gun geek" for lack of a better word -
WOLFMAN - was his name - prepare 6 (six) mercury loaded shells for the
Dallas trip. According to Files, he and Wolfman MODIFIED weapons all the
time and they kept their stash in the Bally pinball warehouse in Chicago.
THey had about 40 weapons according to Files.
Make no mistake. Sarge Ritchson was also right about the .222 Fireballs
that were made as far as we know and that is what I was agreeing with. I am
checking now to see if we can locate some numbers on those weapons if indeed
they do exist or existed. Understand again....Files told us the gun he used
was a PROTOYPYE and that is was a .221 MODIFIED. I want it to be clear to
you.
What you must understand Mack is that the modificiation is ever so slight,
not much more than a finger nail file will probably do it. You simply
"carve out" or "file out" if you will - the actual spot at the end of the
chamber so that the slightly longer .222 casing/bullet fits into the
standard .221 chambered Fireball.
Regardless of what Files or any shooter thinks about the weapon or it's
barrell strength or anything else about it, there's really only one thing to
consider, it's one damn powerful accurate weapon.
The addition of the mercury loaded shell not only appears to give the bullet
more impact - more explosive impact - but I would think - and I refer to
Sarge Ritchson on this - I would think that the bullet would be more likely
to hit solid and NOT TO RICOCHET which was also another downside of the
FIreball, to my understanding. What say, Sarge?
When you can clearly come to understand that, you are now ready to move on
the do what we are doing.....examine the gun he used. It is a Remington
.221 MODIFIED.
Thank you for asking questions. I can tell that I've got your full
attention.
Bob Vernon
<gm...@jfk.org> wrote in message 71cq37$vj1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>And if the barrel of a .221 is not strong enough and blows up, why would
>someone modify it by making it thinner and, therefore, weaker?
>
>--
>Gary Mack
>Archivist
>The Sixth Floor Museum
>
Bob Vernon
Bob Vernon
<pjb...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
71cqc5$vuu$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <363954...@flash.net>,
> Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
>> John Ritchson wrote:
>> > I no longer recall the actual number, but according to Remington's
>> > own records, a number of the original .222 Fireballs were in fact
>> > sold prior to the conversion to the .221 cartridge.
>>
>> This is contrary to the information I obtained from Remington.
>> They mailed me a sheet outlining the type and number of
>> xp-100's sold from 1963. None of those were .222's.
>> In fact I asked Remington's customer support and was told
>> they never released a .222. Bob Vernon had it on his web site,
>> maybe still does.
>>
>> You usually sound like you know what your talking about so
>> I'm confused by this contradiction.
>>
>> --
>> Greg Jaynes
>>
>> http://www.flash.net/~jaynes
>> THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
>>
>
>It's lapses like that, and the strange story of the scope interfering with
>the fixed sights and other indications of "gun-shop blow-hard expertise"
that
>keep a lot of us from paying all that much attention to John's
>pronouncements.
>
Bob Vernon
before you leap. If you think Files is still in "beta" you must call the
Mississippi River a stream.
Another idiot with an IQ of less than 40?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Bob Vernon
<pjb...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message 71cqn5$fe$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <3639CC...@flash.net>,
>> --
>> Greg Jaynes
>>
>> http://www.flash.net/~jaynes
>> THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
>>
>
>the Files story is still in beta-test. Once all these obvious
inconsistencies
>are glossed over (it's been what, 5 years now), the "truth
>hahahahahahahahaahha
>
Atlasrecrd
>It's lapses like that, and the strange story of the scope >interfering with
the fixed sights and other indications of >gun-shop blow-hard expertise"
It seems you're picking on factoids in much the same
manner you accuse CTrs of. None of your above
statements mean a thing if the gun did indeed exist;
which it appears it did.
e...@opus.co.tt
Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
> John Ritchson wrote:
> >
> > pjb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > The Remington .221 Fireball uses what is a shortened Remington .222 case.
> > > Before Remington had the ammunition made specifically for the weapon, or
for
> > > those that didn't care to buy the Remington ammo, all that was needed to
> > > adapt the .222 to .221 was to shorten it and make a new neck on the case.
> > > Easily done. The current US M-16/AR-15 ammunition can be altered also in
this
> > > manner. A full length .222 Remington will -not- fit in the .221 Remington
> > > chamber of the XP-100.
> > >
> > Greetings, Wayne Leek invented the Fireball XP-100, all of the
> > prototype weapons being *Originally* chambered for the Remington .222
> > cartridge which was subsequently modified by Leek to the .221 because
> > in his own words, "The .222 cartridge used a bit more powder than was
> > necessary for a weapon with a 10-3/4 inch barrel."
>
> > own records, a number of the original .222 Fireballs were in fact
> > sold prior to the conversion to the .221 cartridge.
>
> This is contrary to the information I obtained from Remington.
> They mailed me a sheet outlining the type and number of
> xp-100's sold from 1963. None of those were .222's.
> In fact I asked Remington's customer support and was told
> they never released a .222. Bob Vernon had it on his web site,
> maybe still does.
>
> You usually sound like you know what your talking about so
> I'm confused by this contradiction.
A *prototype* weapon isn't something that gets "released", Greg.
>
> >
> > With Regard,
> > John Ritchson(SSGT. 499th TC USATC HG US Army Class of 69)
> > (GunSmith/Ballistician,Black Eagle Gun Works)
> > (Survivor, SE Asian Games, 11BRAVO7,Tet 1970)
> > ************************************************************
> > The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that
> > heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it) but
> > "That's Funny..." Isaac Asimov
> > ************************************************************
>
> --
> Greg Jaynes
>
> http://www.flash.net/~jaynes
> THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Greg Jaynes
No I had not heard of it. But I am not a gun enthusiast either.
Other than my pump 12 gauge and and a couple of Saturday night
specials I have I don't pay too much attention to guns.
I have a friend who is a real gun nut and he knew all about
the Fireball when I asked. And they have been on the market
since 1963 so I don't think it would be too tough to get
information on if you were interested in it.
e...@opus.co.tt
atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>
> Greg, had you ever heard of a Fireball before this?
> I hadn't. If Files had not had experience with one,
> where he have gotten all his knowledge of it?
>
There's an earlier post where Greg seems to be saying that the guy who found
the shell in the grass, Rademacher (sp) had come up with some theory
involving a fireball.
Bob Vernon
the case of the .221 PROTOTYPES, the military and CIA boys were the
"testers." They loved it.
<e...@opus.co.tt> wrote in message 71d1gt$ab8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>> --
>> Greg Jaynes
>>
>> http://www.flash.net/~jaynes
>> THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
>>
>
Bob Vernon
reason Jaynes and Mack and the Dallas Krewe of Kennedy seem to think that
Rademacher perpetrated some sort of hoax, it was transferred to Joe West,
and then to James Files. Shall we call it "Tinkers to Evers to Chance" for
lack of a better description.
IT DID NOT HAPPEN.
What Mr. Jaynes and pals can't seem to grasp is this:
DO THEY THINK I"M AN DAMN IDIOT? We've crossed that road a thousand times,
it has been investigated and when I say investigated, I mean
INVESTIGATED.....upside down, sideways, from behind, Jesus, INVESTIGATED.
IT DID NOT HAPPEN.
IT DID NOT HAPPEN.
FORGET IT.
It didn't happen.
End of story.
Bob Vernon
<e...@opus.co.tt> wrote in message 71d47k$e64$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <19981030105105...@ng156.aol.com>,
> atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>>
>> Greg, had you ever heard of a Fireball before this?
>> I hadn't. If Files had not had experience with one,
>> where he have gotten all his knowledge of it?
>>
>
>There's an earlier post where Greg seems to be saying that the guy who
found
>the shell in the grass, Rademacher (sp) had come up with some theory
>involving a fireball.
>
>
John Ritchson
[snip]
> Make no mistake. Sarge Ritchson was also right about the .222 Fireballs
> that were made as far as we know and that is what I was agreeing with. I am
> checking now to see if we can locate some numbers on those weapons if indeed
> they do exist or existed. Understand again....Files told us the gun he used
> was a PROTOYPYE and that is was a .221 MODIFIED. I want it to be clear to
> you.
>
> What you must understand Mack is that the modificiation is ever so slight,
> not much more than a finger nail file will probably do it. You simply
> "carve out" or "file out" if you will - the actual spot at the end of the
> chamber so that the slightly longer .222 casing/bullet fits into the
> standard .221 chambered Fireball.
>
> Regardless of what Files or any shooter thinks about the weapon or it's
> barrell strength or anything else about it, there's really only one thing to
> consider, it's one damn powerful accurate weapon.
>
> The addition of the mercury loaded shell not only appears to give the bullet
> more impact - more explosive impact - but I would think - and I refer to
> Sarge Ritchson on this - I would think that the bullet would be more likely
> to hit solid and NOT TO RICOCHET which was also another downside of the
> FIreball, to my understanding. What say, Sarge?
Greetings, you are correct. Without getting into a disertation on
ballistic theory, loading the weight of a mercury load into an otherwise
hollow-point bullet will tend to move its center of gravity forward and
along with the gyroscopic effect, there will be a change in the
flowfield structure which will, if I'm thinking straight, move the
Magnus Force's center of pressure, which is a function of the flowfield
structure, behind the bullet's center of gravity resulting in a
condition of stability that would not otherwise exist. This condition
of stability exists because the Magnus Force in this case, tends to
decrease the yaw angle by moving the bullet's axis opposite to the
direction of the yaw angle.
Light weight, high velocity, spin-stabilized spire-point FMJs/JHPs
tend to easily destabilize. Even transversing different air masses is
usually sufficient to produce such a result. This is because in such
bullets, the center of pressure of the Magnus Force lays in front of the
bullet's center of gravity resulting in a tendency to increase the yaw
angle leading to destabilization.
I know this all sounds rather complex but I just don't know any way
of keeping it simple. In fact I may be over-simplifing the process
somewhat as it is.
Bob Vernon
I don't understand a thing you said but I will print this one out and keep
it.
Bob Vernon
John Ritchson <jo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
363A21...@worldnet.att.net...
drt...@my-dejanews.com
In article <363A08...@flash.net>,
Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
> Atlasrecrd wrote:
> >
> > Greg, had you ever heard of a Fireball before this?
> > I hadn't. If Files had not had experience with one,
> > where he have gotten all his knowledge of it?
>
> No I had not heard of it. But I am not a gun enthusiast either.
> Other than my pump 12 gauge and and a couple of Saturday night
> specials I have I don't pay too much attention to guns.
>
> I have a friend who is a real gun nut and he knew all about
> the Fireball when I asked. And they have been on the market
> since 1963 so I don't think it would be too tough to get
> information on if you were interested in it.
>
> --
> Greg Jaynes
Men with a paramilitary/hitman background don't need to read gun books. Those
are for gun enthusiasts and hobbyists! They get their experience from using
such a weapon in their line of work. Like James Files did. He was known for
head shots. He liked a .45 but for the Dallas hit, he chose the weapon that
best suited the job. He chose the Fireball.
Folks like John Rademacher who are not gun enthusiasts and hobbyists turn to
gun books for info. That's how Rademacher gained ANY knowledge about the
.221/.222 Fireball and the .222 rifles that he spoke of. He had no idea that
he was close to the truth. He had no idea about James Files. Neither did
Joe West. AFTER Joe died, the truth came out.
When you get past that stumbling block Greg, you will begin to understand the
importance of what we've uncovered.
Good luck.
Bob Vernon‰
Sam McClung
>And if the barrel of a .221 is not strong enough and blows up, why would
someone modify it by making it thinner and, therefore, weaker?
--
Gary Mack
Archivist
The Sixth Floor Museum
Wasn't the .222 shell LONGER than the .221, instead of having a larger diameter?
Another question for the experts, WHO was capable of making the modification of a .221 to a .222 Fireball, prior to 11-22-63?
e...@opus.co.tt
"Bob Vernon" <kers...@ecis.com> wrote:
> You're putting words in my mouth. You're reading something into it that is
> not there. Relax.
>
> Mr. Jaynes: Files did not say IN THE VIDEO that the gun was a prototype.
> He told us that in our numerous interviews and communications with him. He
> also made it perfectly clear that the weapon he used was a .221 MODIFIED to
> shoot .222 shells. He had his "gun geek" for lack of a better word -
> WOLFMAN - was his name - prepare 6 (six) mercury loaded shells for the
> Dallas trip. According to Files, he and Wolfman MODIFIED weapons all the
> time and they kept their stash in the Bally pinball warehouse in Chicago.
> THey had about 40 weapons according to Files.
>
> that were made as far as we know and that is what I was agreeing with. I am
> checking now to see if we can locate some numbers on those weapons if indeed
> they do exist or existed. Understand again....Files told us the gun he used
> was a PROTOYPYE and that is was a .221 MODIFIED. I want it to be clear to
> you.
>
> What you must understand Mack is that the modificiation is ever so slight,
> not much more than a finger nail file will probably do it. You simply
> "carve out" or "file out" if you will - the actual spot at the end of the
> chamber so that the slightly longer .222 casing/bullet fits into the
> standard .221 chambered Fireball.
>
> Regardless of what Files or any shooter thinks about the weapon or it's
> barrell strength or anything else about it, there's really only one thing to
> consider, it's one damn powerful accurate weapon.
>
> The addition of the mercury loaded shell not only appears to give the bullet
> more impact - more explosive impact - but I would think - and I refer to
> Sarge Ritchson on this - I would think that the bullet would be more likely
> to hit solid and NOT TO RICOCHET which was also another downside of the
> FIreball, to my understanding. What say, Sarge?
Mercury loaded. Interesting. Something just crossed my mind while picturing
a mercury loaded bullet slamming into someone's head. I wonder if those two
trails that were reported in the xray of JFKs head were really lead, or could
they have been mercury? Those trails always bothered me.
> When you can clearly come to understand that, you are now ready to move on
> the do what we are doing.....examine the gun he used. It is a Remington
> .221 MODIFIED.
>
> Thank you for asking questions. I can tell that I've got your full
> attention.
>
> Bob Vernon
>
> <gm...@jfk.org> wrote in message 71cq37$vj1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> >In article <3639CC...@flash.net>,
> >> --
> >> Greg Jaynes
> >>
> >> http://www.flash.net/~jaynes
> >> THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
> >>
> >And if the barrel of a .221 is not strong enough and blows up, why would
> >someone modify it by making it thinner and, therefore, weaker?
> >
> >--
> >Gary Mack
> >Archivist
> >The Sixth Floor Museum
> >
> >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
gm...@jfk.org
strong enough and kept blowing up.
If the inside of a barrel is resized to fire a bigger bullet, doesn't the
barrel become even weaker than before?
--
Gary Mack
Archivist
The Sixth Floor Museum
In article <363A21...@worldnet.att.net>,
jo...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Bob Vernon wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Make no mistake. Sarge Ritchson was also right about the .222 Fireballs
> > that were made as far as we know and that is what I was agreeing with. I am
> > checking now to see if we can locate some numbers on those weapons if indeed
> > they do exist or existed. Understand again....Files told us the gun he used
> > was a PROTOYPYE and that is was a .221 MODIFIED. I want it to be clear to
> > you.
> >
> > What you must understand Mack is that the modificiation is ever so slight,
> > not much more than a finger nail file will probably do it. You simply
> > "carve out" or "file out" if you will - the actual spot at the end of the
> > chamber so that the slightly longer .222 casing/bullet fits into the
> > standard .221 chambered Fireball.
> >
> > Regardless of what Files or any shooter thinks about the weapon or it's
> > barrell strength or anything else about it, there's really only one thing to
> > consider, it's one damn powerful accurate weapon.
> >
> > The addition of the mercury loaded shell not only appears to give the bullet
> > more impact - more explosive impact - but I would think - and I refer to
> > Sarge Ritchson on this - I would think that the bullet would be more likely
> > to hit solid and NOT TO RICOCHET which was also another downside of the
> > FIreball, to my understanding. What say, Sarge?
>
Bob Vernon
Mack what I said was:
> Regardless of what Files or any shooter thinks about the
weapon or it's
> barrell strength or anything else about it, there's really only one thing
to
> consider, it's one damn powerful accurate weapon.
>
It was not a BIGGER bullet, only the casing is slightly - SLIGHTLY longer -
the bullet itself - I believe - is the same size. it was a more powerful
bullet. By using the more powerful bullet, Files insured the accuracy and
the NON-RICOCHET ability of the weapon..
As to whether or not Files was concerned about the barrell blowing up in his
face.....OBVIOUSLY - he wasn't.
And guess what? It didn't.
NO one has ever said or reported that the XP-100 barrell blew u-p EVERY TIME
it was shot. It was only reported that SOMETIMES there was that problem.
Maybe the age of the gun has somehting to do with it. I really don't know.
Ask the Sarge. His expertise is far superior to any of ours.
Accept the truth. It's always right. No matter how simple it may be.
Bob Vernon
<gm...@jfk.org> wrote in message 71dgpn$2e4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
Greg Jaynes
>
> In article <19981030130810...@ng154.aol.com>,
> Oswald, and found at his work station after shooting JFK.
> But John's version of it doesn't exist.
> Would you care to see a true photo of the sight orientation on the Carcano?
> One that shows the scope -can't- interfere with the fixed sights?
On my web site under the tab GRAND RAPIDS you can see pictures of Steve Barber,
Dale Myers , Todd Vaughan, John McAdams and me firing Todd's Carcano. Identical
to Oswalds in every way, it even came from Klein's.
I looked through the scope and could have used it to aim
with but I prefered the iron sights. The scope in no way
interefered with the use of the iron sights. Shooting at a more
distant target, I might have prefered the scope.
> When clangers like that one get out from a self-proclaimed "expert", there's
> little reason to pay all that much attention to the other "revelations" that
> don't resemble what people with experience know to be true.
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
Greg Jaynes
>
> Allow me to clearly explain this - hoepfully for the last time - for some
> reason Jaynes and Mack and the Dallas Krewe of Kennedy seem to think that
> Rademacher perpetrated some sort of hoax, it was transferred to Joe West,
> and then to James Files.
Since I have no proof that Joe West took Rademachers story
and modified it for Files I have not directly made the accusation.
But since you have so eloquently explained it, I will say yes
that is what I suspect happened.
My impression goes like this:
Rademacher finds the .222 shell casings
Rademacher developes his theory involving the Remington Fireball.
Passes around pictures of one that has been altered to say .222
to match his shell casings
The Roscoe White thing did not pan out for Joe West
So West by chance gets the lead about Files from the FBI guy
West and Files meet, hit it off and plan the scam
maybe not all in one sitting.
West knows about Rademacher finding the casings
and about the Remington Fireball story because
both are friends with Gary Shaw, also of Roscoe
White fame and co owner of the AIC.
West knows he can count on Malcolm Summers to say
anything he wants as he had already claimed to have
seen Roscoe white and was part of Rademacher's original
theory.
Whoever heard of John Rademacher so West doesn't
even consider the likleyhood of Dave Perry sitting
in Jim Marr's UTA class and saving the handouts
that Rademacher passed around.
West takes parts of Rademacher's story and
patches Files into the scenario. A scenario that
may have been similar to tales Files had been telling.
I don't question Files Chicago mob ties but mob rumors
had been around even before the HSCA. But the HSCA put
mob theories on the map with Blakey's book and John
Davis Mafia Kingfish and other books. Files mob story
is really not new.
West and Files get the story cooked.
Bob Vernon gets brought in to promote the story.
To market it somehow.
(BlockBuster video deal and maybe now a movie)
Joe West dies and Vernon takes over.
Vernon faces critics of the story that neither
he or West were expecting. (Dave Perry and Gary Mack
who are the same researchers who busted the Ricky White
fraud despite Vernon's claims that it was Joe West-
stand by for a "BlockBuster" expose on Joe West's
involvement in pushing the Roscoe White story.
Story loses credibility due to Files lies on the video
a.) motorcade route change
b.) how much he got paid
c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
to have been block with barriers
etc;
They also were not expecting the Paschall film which
is going to show there were two people behind the
fence. In Files story he tells it like he was the only
one in that area.
Additionally good copies of the Paschall film which
are not in circulation yet will show the vehicles
directly behind the corner of the picket fence and
along both legs of the fence.
I asked Bob Vernon to have Files describe and draw a map
of the layout and types of vehicles that were there.
If he was there then he should know.
We'll see.
-end of my impression
Bob Vernon
Files. Whoever this guy is, he's a liar.
When I went on Compuserve, it was to inform the people of the USA of what we
had discovered. Just like here, Compuserve is full of idiots who either
have a hidden agenda or fabricate reality like this person Burke or whatever
his name might be. Don't get me wrong, there are also plenty of fine
people, real Americans that truly care. This guy is not in that category.
This fellow has no idea about the importance of our discovery.
Just another jerk off.
Bob Vernon
<pjb...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
71dkss$7h4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <19981030105105...@ng156.aol.com>,
> atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>>
>> Greg, had you ever heard of a Fireball before this?
>> I hadn't. If Files had not had experience with one,
>> where he have gotten all his knowledge of it?
>>
>
>He got a lot of his "knowledge" of the Fireball thru Vernon, from me. 1994
>the Vernon's were hyping a pay-per-view tv thingie, and trolling on
>Compuserve for people to help them get around the problems with Files..
i.e.
>make his fantasies real. I got sucked there for awhile, and tried to help,
>until it became clear that all that was happening was Files' "information"
>got better the more he got from me. Sleazy operators, the entire bunch.
Like
>here, numerous aliases...
Bob Vernon
Bob Vernon
<pjb...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
71dlg7$8bk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <363A21...@worldnet.att.net>,
> jo...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>> Bob Vernon wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> > Make no mistake. Sarge Ritchson was also right about the .222
Fireballs
>> > that were made as far as we know and that is what I was agreeing with.
I am
>> > checking now to see if we can locate some numbers on those weapons if
indeed
>> > they do exist or existed. Understand again....Files told us the gun he
used
>> > was a PROTOYPYE and that is was a .221 MODIFIED. I want it to be clear
to
>> > you.
>> >
>> > What you must understand Mack is that the modificiation is ever so
slight,
>> > not much more than a finger nail file will probably do it. You simply
>> > "carve out" or "file out" if you will - the actual spot at the end of
the
>> > chamber so that the slightly longer .222 casing/bullet fits into the
>> > standard .221 chambered Fireball.
>>
>
>Amazing gunsmithery, John. Finger-nail to ream the chamber to accept the
>longer .222 Remington case. And you accepted this! Amazing!
>
>
>> Greetings, you are correct. Without getting into a disertation on
>> ballistic theory, loading the weight of a mercury load into an otherwise
>> hollow-point bullet will tend to move its center of gravity forward and
>> along with the gyroscopic effect, there will be a change in the
>> flowfield structure which will, if I'm thinking straight, move the
>> Magnus Force's center of pressure, which is a function of the flowfield
>> structure, behind the bullet's center of gravity resulting in a
>> condition of stability that would not otherwise exist. This condition
>> of stability exists because the Magnus Force in this case, tends to
>> decrease the yaw angle by moving the bullet's axis opposite to the
>> direction of the yaw angle.
>>
>
>
>What nice big words! I wonder what they'd sound like if they were used in
the
>-correct- context!
>
>
>> With Regard,
>> John Ritchson
Bob Vernon
The information we are discussing regarding the XP-100 has been gained
through an investigtion and through personal experience.. We have not read
any gunbooks as has Mr. Burke, or whatever his name is, for we have relied
on people who have had hands on experience in all types of situations with
the actual weapon itself. A reamer can be used as well as any instrument -
a file or otherwise - to modify a chamber to fit the .222 into a .221.
Mercury does indeed change the way the bullet "feels" as it leaves the
chamber, but most importantly, it causes an explosion when it hits and blood
and brain matter spurt immeidately into the air with a harsh impact. Does
that sound familar to you? Have you seen that picture before? It's like a
tiny little bomb!
Now take Mr. Burke here.....has he ever fired a gun? Has he ever modified a
weapon? Has he ever modified a Fireball? Has he ever killed a man at close
range? Maybe he'll tell us. Of course, then, he'll have to prove it.
Has he ever read a book? I read a book once. It was called the Warren
Report. Got through a couple of volumes before I realized the truth.....the
book was a lie.
Just like Mr. Burke.
Bob Vernon
<pjb...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
71dpjq$dj1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <363A3911...@flash.net>,
> sa...@flash.net wrote:
>>
>> --------------3420E5E8A27EC17AF3E3DEC7
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>> gm...@jfk.org wrote:
>>
>> > >And if the barrel of a .221 is not strong enough and blows up, why
would
>> > someone modify it by making it thinner and, therefore, weaker?
>> > --
>> > Gary Mack
>> > Archivist
>> > The Sixth Floor Museum
>> >
>>
>> Wasn't the .222 shell LONGER than the .221, instead of having a larger
>diameter?
>>
>> Another question for the experts, WHO was capable of making the
modification
>of a
>> .221 to a .222 Fireball, prior to 11-22-63?
>>
>
>
>
>The .222 Remington case is 1.700 inches long. The .221 Fireball is 1.400
>inches long. Imagine carving the chamber larger with a nail file. Real
>gunsmiths would chose a hardened steel chamber reamer.
>
>From the HORNADY Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, 3rd Edition:
>
>"The Fireball is a shortened version of the 222 Remington case that was
>introduced in the XP-100 action in 1963; The XP-100 action is a shortened
and
>modified version of the Model 600 action."
>
>So we two facts. The XP-100 first existed as a .222, and needn't have been
>modified at all... and it's a shortened version of a standard Remington
action
>that handles much stronger rifle cartridges.
>
>So this bullshit about "prototype" actions, rechambering, etc. is exactly
>that, BULLSHIT! And that the -smaller- cartridge "blew up" the weapon while
>the larger didn't is reason to add bullshit^2 to the story. And hollowing
out
>a very small bullet to add "mercury"... Mercury weighs 3.5% less than lead.
>NOTHING is accomplished by this action, presuming it were possible (it
isn't)
>in the first place. This whole story reeks of ignorance and cupidity!
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>
> Greg, had you ever heard of a Fireball before this?
> I hadn't. If Files had not had experience with one,
> where he have gotten all his knowledge of it?
>
He got a lot of his "knowledge" of the Fireball thru Vernon, from me. 1994
the Vernon's were hyping a pay-per-view tv thingie, and trolling on
Compuserve for people to help them get around the problems with Files.. i.e.
make his fantasies real. I got sucked there for awhile, and tried to help,
until it became clear that all that was happening was Files' "information"
got better the more he got from me. Sleazy operators, the entire bunch. Like
here, numerous aliases...
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
> >pjb...@my-dejanews.com
>
> >It's lapses like that, and the strange story of the scope >interfering with
> the fixed sights and other indications of >gun-shop blow-hard expertise"
>
> It seems you're picking on factoids in much the same
> manner you accuse CTrs of. None of your above
> statements mean a thing if the gun did indeed exist;
> which it appears it did.
>
Well, naturally the gun exists. It was after all bought by Oswald, used by
Oswald, and found at his work station after shooting JFK.
But John's version of it doesn't exist.
Would you care to see a true photo of the sight orientation on the Carcano?
One that shows the scope -can't- interfere with the fixed sights?
little reason to pay all that much attention to the other "revelations" that
don't resemble what people with experience know to be true.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
> With Regard,
> John Ritchson
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
e...@opus.co.tt
jo...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Bob Vernon wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Make no mistake. Sarge Ritchson was also right about the .222 Fireballs
> > that were made as far as we know and that is what I was agreeing with. I am
> > checking now to see if we can locate some numbers on those weapons if indeed
> > they do exist or existed. Understand again....Files told us the gun he used
> > was a PROTOYPYE and that is was a .221 MODIFIED. I want it to be clear to
> > you.
> >
> > What you must understand Mack is that the modificiation is ever so slight,
> > not much more than a finger nail file will probably do it. You simply
> > "carve out" or "file out" if you will - the actual spot at the end of the
> > chamber so that the slightly longer .222 casing/bullet fits into the
> > standard .221 chambered Fireball.
> >
> > barrell strength or anything else about it, there's really only one thing to
> > consider, it's one damn powerful accurate weapon.
> >
> > The addition of the mercury loaded shell not only appears to give the bullet
> > more impact - more explosive impact - but I would think - and I refer to
> > Sarge Ritchson on this - I would think that the bullet would be more likely
> > to hit solid and NOT TO RICOCHET which was also another downside of the
> > FIreball, to my understanding. What say, Sarge?
>
> ballistic theory, loading the weight of a mercury load into an otherwise
> hollow-point bullet will tend to move its center of gravity forward and
> along with the gyroscopic effect, there will be a change in the
> flowfield structure which will, if I'm thinking straight, move the
> Magnus Force's center of pressure, which is a function of the flowfield
> structure, behind the bullet's center of gravity resulting in a
> condition of stability that would not otherwise exist. This condition
> of stability exists because the Magnus Force in this case, tends to
> decrease the yaw angle by moving the bullet's axis opposite to the
> direction of the yaw angle.
>
> tend to easily destabilize. Even transversing different air masses is
> usually sufficient to produce such a result. This is because in such
> bullets, the center of pressure of the Magnus Force lays in front of the
> bullet's center of gravity resulting in a tendency to increase the yaw
> angle leading to destabilization.
>
> I know this all sounds rather complex but I just don't know any way
> of keeping it simple. In fact I may be over-simplifing the process
> somewhat as it is.
Bottom line is you're saying that the redesign of the bullet by loading it
with mercury at the front is likely to stabalise the bullet further, aside
from the stability against tumbling produced by the bullet spinning, right?
[The Magnus Force by the way, would that be referring to the effect force
against the bullet due to the air pressure at the front and be a function of
the shape of the bullet head? I think I gather from what you're saying is
that by loading the front of the bullet with mercury, you bring the center of
mass of the bullet closer to the front, where the average air pressure forces
appear to act, so that slight variations of air pressure on one side or the
other at the front have less turning effect?]
> With Regard,
> John Ritchson(SSGT. 499th TC USATC HG US Army Class of 69)
> (GunSmith/Ballistician,Black Eagle Gun Works)
> (Survivor, SE Asian Games, 11BRAVO7,Tet 1970)
> ************************************************************
> The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that
> heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it) but
> "That's Funny..." Isaac Asimov
> ************************************************************
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
e...@opus.co.tt wrote:
>
> Mercury loaded. Interesting. Something just crossed my mind while picturing
> a mercury loaded bullet slamming into someone's head. I wonder if those two
> trails that were reported in the xray of JFKs head were really lead, or could
> they have been mercury? Those trails always bothered me.
>
Do you realize what a -small- amount of material (mercury -or- lead) is
involved here? There are 438 grains in an ounce. The typical bullet in this
caliber weighs 55 to 60 grains. A lot of that is the outer casing. Mercury
weighs 3.5% -less- than the lead it is supposed to replace. This is
completely insignificant in terms of -anything- remotely related to the idea.
Which is lunacy compounded by sleaze, to start with. The ballistic
"improvements" John lists come from too many Coors.
John Ritchson
[snip]
> Bottom line is you're saying that the redesign of the bullet by loading it
> with mercury at the front is likely to stabalise the bullet further, aside
> from the stability against tumbling produced by the bullet spinning, right?
Greetings, that is absolutely correct. In all spire-point bullets
the center of gravity lays further back on the bullet producing an
inherent condition of instability. The base is heavier than the nose
and the principal force that prevents its tumbling is the gyroscopic-
effect.
Adding a bit of weight to the nose moves the center of gravity towards
the nose, away from the base and increases inherent stability.
> [The Magnus Force by the way, would that be referring to the effect force
> against the bullet due to the air pressure at the front and be a function of
> the shape of the bullet head? I think I gather from what you're saying is
> that by loading the front of the bullet with mercury, you bring the center of
> mass of the bullet closer to the front, where the average air pressure forces
> appear to act, so that slight variations of air pressure on one side or the
> other at the front have less turning effect?]
Correct again. Shape plays a critical role in determining the
flow structure which along with other factors determines whether
or not the Magnus Force's center of pressure lays to the front or
rear of the bullet's center of gravity. Anything one can do to move
a bullet's center of gravity forward will tend to improve its
inherent ballistic stability, such as filling a hollow-point bullet
with mercury.
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
e...@opus.co.tt
From the "Sarge" hiself:
> > Greetings, you are correct. Without getting into a disertation on
> > ballistic theory, loading the weight of a mercury load into an otherwise
> > hollow-point bullet will tend to move its center of gravity forward and
> > along with the gyroscopic effect, there will be a change in the
> > flowfield structure which will, if I'm thinking straight, move the
> > Magnus Force's center of pressure, which is a function of the flowfield
> > structure, behind the bullet's center of gravity resulting in a
> > condition of stability that would not otherwise exist. This condition
> > of stability exists because the Magnus Force in this case, tends to
> > decrease the yaw angle by moving the bullet's axis opposite to the
> > direction of the yaw angle.
> >
> > Light weight, high velocity, spin-stabilized spire-point FMJs/JHPs
> > tend to easily destabilize. Even transversing different air masses is
> > usually sufficient to produce such a result. This is because in such
> > bullets, the center of pressure of the Magnus Force lays in front of the
> > bullet's center of gravity resulting in a tendency to increase the yaw
> > angle leading to destabilization.
> >
>
Edy's very cogent comments:
> Bottom line is you're saying that the redesign of the bullet by loading it
> with mercury at the front is likely to stabalise the bullet further, aside
> from the stability against tumbling produced by the bullet spinning, right?
>
> [The Magnus Force by the way, would that be referring to the effect force
> against the bullet due to the air pressure at the front and be a function of
> the shape of the bullet head? I think I gather from what you're saying is
> that by loading the front of the bullet with mercury, you bring the center of
> mass of the bullet closer to the front, where the average air pressure forces
> appear to act, so that slight variations of air pressure on one side or the
> other at the front have less turning effect?]
>
Ok, here's the way it works. For a projectile to be stable in flight, the
center of pressure of the aerodynamic forces must be behind the center of
gravity of the projectile. It's this distance between the two that provides
what stability in flight there is, after the spin stability due to the
rifling. In a round-nosed bullet, the c.p. and c.g. are very close to each
other. A small stabilizing moment. In a spitzer (pointed) bullet, the c.g.
and c.p. are more seperated. Like with an arrow, the fat part is to the rear.
(Just like airplanes!)
(The "Magnus" force comes from Volume 15 of the BULLSHITTERS Primer.)
This makes for more stability over a round-nosed bullet. Which is why all
-modern- bullets used to kill people are spitzers. They're also more efficient
(less drag)so they go faster with the same input energy at firing.
The military seems to feel that spitzers are the way to go for better bullets,
since about 1896...
So these "experts" by somehow removing a minute amount of lead from the nose
of a .22 bullet and replacing it with an even smaller amount of mercury
(lighter than lead) are NOT moving the c.g. forward, they're moving it AFT!
Closer to the c.p. This is making this imaginary bullet less stable at the
very start.
Then somehow this mercury, which is a liquid of NO tensile strength at all
makes this deadly bullet more "explosive". And "powerful". RIGHT!
Of course this poor mangled thing is really a butchered hollow-point, which in
this size and usual velocity expands to the point of explosion anyway.
Rocket scientist's these guys ain't!
Mostly career criminals (that's an indication of intelligence, I'm shure),
wanna-b rauds and experienced bullshitters.
Bob Vernon
here is you Mr. Burke.
State your credentials or stand down.
Bob Vernon
<pjb...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
71ff44$esv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
K.B.
wrote:
>Bob Vernon wrote:
>>
>> Allow me to clearly explain this - hoepfully for the last time - for some
>> reason Jaynes and Mack and the Dallas Krewe of Kennedy seem to think that
>> Rademacher perpetrated some sort of hoax, it was transferred to Joe West,
>> and then to James Files.
>
>Since I have no proof that Joe West took Rademachers story
>and modified it for Files I have not directly made the accusation.
>But since you have so eloquently explained it, I will say yes
>that is what I suspect happened.
>
>
>My impression goes like this:
>
>Rademacher finds the .222 shell casings
>
>Rademacher developes his theory involving the Remington Fireball.
>Passes around pictures of one that has been altered to say .222
>to match his shell casings
At the time we are talking about, or any time, the shell, case,
cartridge, whatever you want to call it, that was fired out of a .221
Fireball could have very well been marked as .222. The shell itself
can be modified to fit. This works both ways. With reloading dies, a
221 could be stretched to fit the .222 or a .222 could be shortened
for the .221. A 30.06 case can be modified to fire out of a 25.06.
Keith Bruner
Just another memory free humanoid.
Bob Vernon
You're just a idiot.
I thought you had some sense.
Nothing - let me be clear - NOTHING - that you stated happened.
You are truly a fool.
Don't waste my time anymore.
Bob Vernon
K.B. <root@*webquay.com> wrote in message
363b5836....@cnews.newsguy.com...
John Ritchson
[snip]
> Well, naturally the gun exists. It was after all bought by Oswald, > used by Oswald, and found at his work station after shooting JFK.
Of course your proof of this is rock solid.(LOL)
> But John's version of it doesn't exist.
Are you saying there is no such thing as a Moschettieri del Duce
Carcano?
> Would you care to see a true photo of the sight orientation on the
> Carcano? One that shows the scope -can't- interfere with the fixed > sights?
By all means post your proof. Snipers, Craig Roberts, and Gunny
Hathcock will be most interested to see that they had it wrong all
this time.
> When clangers like that one get out from a self-proclaimed "expert", there's
> little reason to pay all that much attention to the other "revelations" that
> don't resemble what people with experience know to be true.
Spoken like a true nobody from nowhere.com hiding behind deja new's
firewall.
John Ritchson
>
[snip]
> Ok, here's the way it works. For a projectile to be stable in flight, the
> center of pressure of the aerodynamic forces must be behind the center of
> gravity of the projectile. It's this distance between the two that provides
> what stability in flight there is, after the spin stability due to the
> rifling. In a round-nosed bullet, the c.p. and c.g. are very close to each
> other. A small stabilizing moment. In a spitzer (pointed) bullet, the c.g.
> and c.p. are more seperated. Like with an arrow, the fat part is to the rear.
> (Just like airplanes!)
Just enough truth to make the crap you are spewing sound plausable.
This is a common dis-information tactic BTW. One that I have seen
used numerous times on this and other forums.
> (The "Magnus" force comes from Volume 15 of the BULLSHITTERS Primer.)
No sir, the Magnus Force comes from the German physicist, Heinrich-
Gustav Magnus 1802-1870.
For the edification of the readers, I will expand on this subject:
"Generally, the wind force is the dominant aerodynamic force. However,
there are numerous other smaller forces which play a part, of which
the *Magnus force* turns out to be very important for bullet stability.
Because of the bullet's spin, the flowfield turns out to become
asymmetric. Molecules of the air stream adhere to the bullet's surface.
Air stream velocity and the rotational velocity of the body add at
one point and subtract at another. Thus one can observe a lower
flowfield velocity at the point of addition and a higher streaming
velocity at the point of subtraction. However, according to Bernoulli's
rule, a higher streaming velocity corresponds with a lower pressure and
a lower velocity with a higher pressure. Thus, THERE IS A PRESSURE
DIFFERENCE, WHICH RESULTS IN A DOWNWARD DIRECTED FORCE, WHICH IS SAID
TO BE THE MAGNUS FORCE."
> This makes for more stability over a round-nosed bullet. Which is why all
> -modern- bullets used to kill people are spitzers.
Ah hell! Now you've gone and done it. All of those military snipers
who use 220 grain round-nosed brush busters for certain shots, under
certain field conditions are going to have to go back to Quantico
for retraining in basic ballistics.
Hell Mr. Burke, we're going to have to carve your proclamations in
stone to preserve for all time, the profound (Cough) truths you have
so graciously provided.
> They're also more efficient
> (less drag)so they go faster with the same input energy at firing.
> The military seems to feel that spitzers are the way to go for better bullets,
> since about 1896...
As I said before, mix a little truth with the crap and you get
a more plausable pile of crap.
> So these "experts" by somehow removing a minute amount of lead from the nose
> of a .22 bullet and replacing it with an even smaller amount of mercury
> (lighter than lead) are NOT moving the c.g. forward, they're moving it AFT!
> Closer to the c.p. This is making this imaginary bullet less stable at the
> very start.
First of all professor, in the case we are discussing, the bullets
at issue are already jacketed *Hollow-Points* to begin with. So this
kind of blows your case out of the water from the get-go.
> Then somehow this mercury, which is a liquid of NO tensile strength
at all
> makes this deadly bullet more "explosive". And "powerful". RIGHT!
Have you ever seen the effects of liquid metal splattering inside
of a live body at ballistic velocities? I doubt it, otherwise you
wouldn't be making such off the wall statements.
Roberts and Hathcock are busting a gut right now.
Hell, if you had any real knowledge of the subject matter you would
know that the mercury loaded bullet was the trademark of the Corsican
Assassin, Lucien Sarti who was BTW, in country on Nov 22, 1963.
> Of course this poor mangled thing is really a butchered hollow-point, which in
> this size and usual velocity expands to the point of explosion anyway.
The only thing getting mangled here is the crap dripping off your
typwriter.
> Rocket scientist's these guys ain't!
Never claimed to be. I am a tradesman with nearly 30 years in this
business, with a public address and varifiable credentials, while
you are a nobody operating out of nowhere.com who at the very least
possesses an over-inflated sense of self-importance.
>
> Mostly career criminals (that's an indication of intelligence, I'm shure),
> wanna-b rauds and experienced bullshitters.
It takes one to know one I would say.
John Ritchson
[snip]
> At the time we are talking about, or any time, the shell, case,
> cartridge, whatever you want to call it, that was fired out of a .221
> Fireball could have very well been marked as .222. The shell itself
> can be modified to fit. This works both ways. With reloading dies, a
> 221 could be stretched to fit the .222 or a .222 could be shortened
> for the .221. A 30.06 case can be modified to fire out of a 25.06.
Greetings, you are right on the money here, *Fire-Forming* is a
common technique used by reloaders and wildcatters the world over and
was perfected by the greatest wildcatter of them all, old man Weatherby
himself. Hell, just concider what he managed to do with the 300&375-
Holland&Holland cartridges.
Atlasrecrd
> Well, naturally the gun exists. It was after all bought by >Oswald, used by
Oswald, and found at his work station >after shooting JFK.
I was refering to the Fireball. How did Files know so
much about the weapon unless he used one?
Atlasrecrd
>> a.) motorcade route change
>> b.) how much he got paid
>> c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
>> to have been block with barriers etc;
Once again, this is like the garbage LNuts try to pick
apart stuff with. The motorcade thing isn't something
Files would need to know about anyway; the payment- it would be odd if any
gangster was ever truthful about what
he'd been paid; and the exiting-Files might have been mistaken, big whoop. Not
all streets were blocked that
day. The point is, even if he's in error on minutia like this
you can't exlain how he knew about the gun, the bullet
casing, his mob background, his 82nd expeience, etc.
If you're going to try and say he's lying you're going to
need to convincingly refute those issues.
K.B.
wrote:
>K.B. wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> At the time we are talking about, or any time, the shell, case,
>> cartridge, whatever you want to call it, that was fired out of a .221
>> Fireball could have very well been marked as .222. The shell itself
>> can be modified to fit. This works both ways. With reloading dies, a
>> 221 could be stretched to fit the .222 or a .222 could be shortened
>> for the .221. A 30.06 case can be modified to fire out of a 25.06.
>
> Greetings, you are right on the money here, *Fire-Forming* is a
>common technique used by reloaders and wildcatters the world over and
>was perfected by the greatest wildcatter of them all, old man Weatherby
>himself. Hell, just concider what he managed to do with the 300&375-
>Holland&Holland cartridges.
>
Hi John. I am a fan of the 300 Weatherby Magnum. 10 times the bullet
that a 7 mm Remington Mag is IMO. Is not the 378 Weatherby Mag a
totally different case then the 375 H&H though?
>
> With Regard,
> John Ritchson(SSGT. 499th TC USATC HG US Army Class of 69)
> (GunSmith/Ballistician,Black Eagle Gun Works)
> (Survivor, SE Asian Games, 11BRAVO7,Tet 1970)
>************************************************************
>The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that
>heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it) but
>"That's Funny..." Isaac Asimov
>************************************************************
Keith Bruner
K.B.
>In article <363954...@flash.net>,
> Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
>> John Ritchson wrote:
>> > I no longer recall the actual number, but according to Remington's
>> > own records, a number of the original .222 Fireballs were in fact
>> > sold prior to the conversion to the .221 cartridge.
>>
>> This is contrary to the information I obtained from Remington.
>> They mailed me a sheet outlining the type and number of
>> xp-100's sold from 1963. None of those were .222's.
>> In fact I asked Remington's customer support and was told
>> they never released a .222. Bob Vernon had it on his web site,
>> maybe still does.
>>
>> You usually sound like you know what your talking about so
>> I'm confused by this contradiction.
>>
>> --
>> Greg Jaynes
>>
>> http://www.flash.net/~jaynes
>> THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
>>
>
>It's lapses like that, and the strange story of the scope interfering with
>the fixed sights and other indications of "gun-shop blow-hard expertise" that
>keep a lot of us from paying all that much attention to John's
>pronouncements.
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Hey Paul, I think you really know better then that. I know you have a
lot of knowledge, and I am always interested in reading what you have
to say......but I have a bit of knowledge as well and John Ritchon has
sure proven to be bang on with his wealth of expertise.
Greg Jaynes
I already answered that. They have been being sold
since 1963. Anyone into guns could know about the Fireball.
Greg Jaynes
> >cartridge, whatever you want to call it, that was fired out of a .221
> >Fireball could have very well been marked as .222. The shell itself
> >can be modified to fit. This works both ways. With reloading dies, a
> >221 could be stretched to fit the .222 or a .222 could be shortened
> >for the .221. A 30.06 case can be modified to fire out of a 25.06.
> >>
> >> b.) how much he got paid
> >> c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
> >> to have been block with barriers
> >>etc;
> >>
> >>is going to show there were two people behind the
> >>fence. In Files story he tells it like he was the only
> >>one in that area.
> >>
> >>Additionally good copies of the Paschall film which
> >>are not in circulation yet will show the vehicles
> >>directly behind the corner of the picket fence and
> >>along both legs of the fence.
> >>
> >>I asked Bob Vernon to have Files describe and draw a map
> >>of the layout and types of vehicles that were there.
> >>
> >>If he was there then he should know.
> >>
> >>We'll see.
> >>
> >>-end of my impression
> >Just another memory free humanoid.
Yeah, you just have Files describe the features and layout
of those vehicles behind that fence.
We will see who is the fool.
Greg Jaynes
>
> >Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> >> a.) motorcade route change
> >> b.) how much he got paid
> >> c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
> >> to have been block with barriers etc;
>
> apart stuff with. The motorcade thing isn't something
> Files would need to know about anyway;
Watch the video. Files is the one that said they
were informed of the change. The motorcade route
was not changed.
> the payment- it would be odd if any
> gangster was ever truthful about what
> he'd been paid;
Whatever, he lied about it and Vernon tripped him up
by pressing him on it.
> and the exiting-Files might have been mistaken, big whoop. Not
> all streets were blocked that
> day.
The part of Houston street that Files said he drove away on
was blocked with barricades near the TSBD and at Record street.
It's a fact.
> The point is, even if he's in error on minutia like this
> you can't exlain how he knew about the gun, the bullet
> casing
Once again, the gun had been sold since 1963.
Lot's of people know about it and are experts on it.
> his mob background,
I don't question Files mob connections. I don't know
it to be true but I will stipulate that it is for the
sake of discussion. Mob theories are nothing new though.
> his 82nd expeience, etc.
I'm not challenging this part of the story.
I don't have the info to form a conclusion on this.
> If you're going to try and say he's lying you're going to
> need to convincingly refute those issues.
I have convincingly refuted the parts of the story I mentioned
but if you think not then tell me what you need. I can be very much
more specific on the Barricades, the motorcade route being changed
and how many people were actually behind the fence.
Bob Vernon
Dr. Truth
<pjb...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
71gksp$ttm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <363b9daa....@cnews.newsguy.com>,
> root@*webquay.com (K.B.) wrote:
>>
>> Hey Paul, I think you really know better then that. I know you have a
>> lot of knowledge, and I am always interested in reading what you have
>> to say......but I have a bit of knowledge as well and John Ritchon has
>> sure proven to be bang on with his wealth of expertise.
>> Keith Bruner
>> Just another memory free humanoid.
>>
>Based on what I've seen from Richtson here, I would be sore afraid to be
near
>him and a firearm, as he does a mischief to himself and the surrounding
>countryside.
>It takes more than a lifetime subscription to Weekly World News Ballistics
to
>know something about real weapons.
Bob Vernon
Of, course, fools like you don't really know the difference between sheep
dung and cottonseed.
Shame.
Dr. Truth
<pjb...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
71gl28$u84$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <19981031180916...@ng135.aol.com>,
> atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>> >Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> a.) motorcade route change
>> >> b.) how much he got paid
>> >> c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
>> >> to have been block with barriers etc;
>>
>> Once again, this is like the garbage LNuts try to pick
>> apart stuff with. The motorcade thing isn't something
>> Files would need to know about anyway; the payment- it would be odd if
any
>> gangster was ever truthful about what
>> he'd been paid; and the exiting-Files might have been mistaken, big
whoop. Not
>> all streets were blocked that
>> day. The point is, even if he's in error on minutia like this
>> you can't exlain how he knew about the gun, the bullet
>> casing, his mob background, his 82nd expeience, etc.
>> If you're going to try and say he's lying you're going to
>> need to convincingly refute those issues.
>>
>>
>
>The "gun" exists as a reality in Dealey Plaza only in the fantasies of
Files
>and the people he has fooled. Anyone with a lot of time to read, and
>certainly a career criminal has that, between times -out- of jail, can make
>up any story he wishes...and obviously find some fool to buy it, or at
least
>try to peddle it. It's been a miserable failure in the market place though,
>for years.
John Ritchson
[snip]
> Hi John. I am a fan of the 300 Weatherby Magnum. 10 times the bullet
> that a 7 mm Remington Mag is IMO. Is not the 378 Weatherby Mag a
> totally different case then the 375 H&H though?
Greetings, Me to. My improved MK-5 will thread a needle at one klick
and still have enough punch to knock down a bull elk. By improved,
I mean I super-polished the action and barrel using a special polish
of my own make to a uniform .0001 tolerance. Makes for a very smooth
action and a barrel slicker than owl-shit on a tin roof.
Anyway, you're correct about the 378, Roy used the old .416 Rigby case
without the belt as a template. He wanted a beefier case for the
increased powder load and felt blowing up the 375 H&H case that much
further would be stretching it a bit thin.
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
root@*webquay.com (K.B.) wrote:
>
> Hey Paul, I think you really know better then that. I know you have a
> lot of knowledge, and I am always interested in reading what you have
> to say......but I have a bit of knowledge as well and John Ritchon has
> sure proven to be bang on with his wealth of expertise.
> Keith Bruner
> Just another memory free humanoid.
>
Based on what I've seen from Richtson here, I would be sore afraid to be near
him and a firearm, as he does a mischief to himself and the surrounding
countryside.
It takes more than a lifetime subscription to Weekly World News Ballistics to
know something about real weapons.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
> >Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> >> a.) motorcade route change
> >> b.) how much he got paid
> >> c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
> >> to have been block with barriers etc;
>
> Once again, this is like the garbage LNuts try to pick
> apart stuff with. The motorcade thing isn't something
> Files would need to know about anyway; the payment- it would be odd if any
> gangster was ever truthful about what
> he'd been paid; and the exiting-Files might have been mistaken, big whoop. Not
> all streets were blocked that
> day. The point is, even if he's in error on minutia like this
> you can't exlain how he knew about the gun, the bullet
> casing, his mob background, his 82nd expeience, etc.
> If you're going to try and say he's lying you're going to
> need to convincingly refute those issues.
>
>
The "gun" exists as a reality in Dealey Plaza only in the fantasies of Files
and the people he has fooled. Anyone with a lot of time to read, and
certainly a career criminal has that, between times -out- of jail, can make
up any story he wishes...and obviously find some fool to buy it, or at least
try to peddle it. It's been a miserable failure in the market place though,
for years.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
r...@iname.com
> > >> b.) how much he got paid
> > >> c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
> > >> to have been block with barriers
> > >>etc;
> > >>
> > >>is going to show there were two people behind the
> > >>fence. In Files story he tells it like he was the only
> > >>one in that area.
> > >>
> > >>Additionally good copies of the Paschall film which
> > >>are not in circulation yet will show the vehicles
> > >>directly behind the corner of the picket fence and
> > >>along both legs of the fence.
> > >>
> > >>I asked Bob Vernon to have Files describe and draw a map
> > >>of the layout and types of vehicles that were there.
> > >>
> > >>If he was there then he should know.
> > >>
> > >>We'll see.
> > >>
> > >>-end of my impression
> > >> Greg Jaynes
> > >>
> > >>http://www.flash.net/~jaynes
> > >> THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
> > >
> > >Just another memory free humanoid.
>
> of those vehicles behind that fence.
>
> We will see who is the fool.
> --
> Greg Jaynes
Can't figure it out, Jaynes? Too hard?
Look in a mirror.
Bob Vernon‰
r...@iname.com
Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
> > >> b.) how much he got paid
> > >> c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
> > >> to have been block with barriers etc;
> >
> > apart stuff with. The motorcade thing isn't something
> > Files would need to know about anyway;
>
> were informed of the change. The motorcade route
> was not changed.
>
> > gangster was ever truthful about what
> > he'd been paid;
>
> by pressing him on it.
>
> > all streets were blocked that
> > day.
>
> was blocked with barricades near the TSBD and at Record street.
> It's a fact.
>
> > you can't exlain how he knew about the gun, the bullet
>
> Once again, the gun had been sold since 1963.
> Lot's of people know about it and are experts on it.
>
> > his mob background,
>
> I don't question Files mob connections. I don't know
> it to be true but I will stipulate that it is for the
> sake of discussion. Mob theories are nothing new though.
>
> > his 82nd expeience, etc.
>
> I'm not challenging this part of the story.
> I don't have the info to form a conclusion on this.
>
> > need to convincingly refute those issues.
>
> but if you think not then tell me what you need. I can be very much
> more specific on the Barricades, the motorcade route being changed
> and how many people were actually behind the fence.
>
> --
Gee, too bad youi weren't around for the Warren Commission.
They could have used you.
Bob Vernon
r...@iname.com
> > > Well, naturally the gun exists. It was after all bought by >Oswald, used
by
> > Oswald, and found at his work station >after shooting JFK.
> >
> > I was refering to the Fireball. How did Files know so
> > much about the weapon unless he used one?
>
> I already answered that. They have been being sold
> since 1963. Anyone into guns could know about the Fireball.
>
Once again, Jaynes researches with his eyes closed. No wonder he hangs around
with Gary Mack. They make a good couple.
The military had their protoypes in 1962.
That's when Files was given his.....by David Atlee Phillips.
Dr. Truth
Atlasrecrd
>It takes more than a lifetime subscription to Weekly World News >Ballistics to
know something about real weapons.
This is just pointless flaming. The guy's a veteran, P.J. What the
hell do you know about firearms that makes you qualified to
critique him?
Sam McClung
Furthermore, our country trusted him enough
to work on our arms (better specify weapons here, some
may think I'm calling him a medic or M.D.), and
we are our country : )
And now for a little humor:
Has anyone given any thought as to what gravity,
the moon's gravity, the effect of drains north of the equator swirling
in a different direction than drains south of the equator, the unending
repercussions of the big bang, and the magnetic fields of the earth had
on all them bullets? And what about time / space relativity? And who can
forget the aliens at Roswell? They may have all had an effect.
Bob Vernon
All pjburke has to do is state his credentials and perhaps someone will take
him seriously.
Since he has no credentials to state, he goes down the tube with the rest of
the Lone Nuts or maybe its with the No Nuts. Either way fits.
Bob Vernon
.
Atlasrecrd <atlas...@aol.com> wrote in message
19981101024052...@ng-fc2.aol.com...
e...@opus.co.tt
atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
> >Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> >> a.) motorcade route change
> >> b.) how much he got paid
> >> c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
> >> to have been block with barriers etc;
>
> Once again, this is like the garbage LNuts try to pick
> apart stuff with. The motorcade thing isn't something
From the transcript at http://www.geocities.com/~bobkatmusic/confession2.htm
===quote=== Johnny Rosselli said well they only made one change.(13) That was
when he informed me they was coming off of Main Street on to Elm or on to
Houston there...they made the zig-zag, the little turn that they should have
never made. But when they ===unquote=== What he actually said in the
transcript was that Rosselli made mention of some change. Like you said,
Files wouldn't even have known about that himself.
> Files would need to know about anyway; the payment- it would be odd if any
> gangster was ever truthful about what
It's not clear what the $30,000 he received was for. It leads me to
speculate: The thing I wonder about is whether he had actually done TWO jobs
and when he got the $30,000 he took it to mean it was $15,000 for the Kennedy
thing and $15,000 for the other thing. If that were the case I can
understand why if asked how much he recieved for the Kennedy job, he would
respond "$15,000" then have to hedge on the details to explain that the
envelope actually contained $30,000; I'm suspecting there's another story in
there unrelated to the Kennedy killing.
> he'd been paid; and the exiting-Files might have been mistaken, big whoop. Not
> all streets were blocked that
> day. The point is, even if he's in error on minutia like this
> you can't exlain how he knew about the gun, the bullet
> casing, his mob background, his 82nd expeience, etc.
> If you're going to try and say he's lying you're going to
> need to convincingly refute those issues.
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
e...@opus.co.tt
That's right. He tries to argue that the issue is to remove lead from a
bullet and then replace it with mercury which is less dense, when it's hollow
point bullets being discussed. The matter is already settled: loading the
hollow point bullet with mercury makes it more stable.
> > Then somehow this mercury, which is a liquid of NO tensile strength
> at all
> > makes this deadly bullet more "explosive". And "powerful". RIGHT!
>
> Have you ever seen the effects of liquid metal splattering inside
> of a live body at ballistic velocities? I doubt it, otherwise you
> wouldn't be making such off the wall statements.
>
> Roberts and Hathcock are busting a gut right now.
>
> Hell, if you had any real knowledge of the subject matter you would
> know that the mercury loaded bullet was the trademark of the Corsican
> Assassin, Lucien Sarti who was BTW, in country on Nov 22, 1963.
>
> > Of course this poor mangled thing is really a butchered hollow-point, which
in
> > this size and usual velocity expands to the point of explosion anyway.
>
> The only thing getting mangled here is the crap dripping off your
> typwriter.
>
> > Rocket scientist's these guys ain't!
>
> Never claimed to be. I am a tradesman with nearly 30 years in this
> business, with a public address and varifiable credentials, while
> you are a nobody operating out of nowhere.com who at the very least
> possesses an over-inflated sense of self-importance.
> >
> > Mostly career criminals (that's an indication of intelligence, I'm shure),
> > wanna-b rauds and experienced bullshitters.
>
> It takes one to know one I would say.
>
> With Regard,
> John Ritchson(SSGT. 499th TC USATC HG US Army Class of 69)
> (GunSmith/Ballistician,Black Eagle Gun Works)
> (Survivor, SE Asian Games, 11BRAVO7,Tet 1970)
> ************************************************************
> The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that
> heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it) but
> "That's Funny..." Isaac Asimov
> ************************************************************
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
e...@opus.co.tt
sa...@flash.net wrote:
>
> --------------9AAD911E429A158254414048
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Atlasrecrd wrote:
>
> > >PJ Burke huffed:
> >
> > >It takes more than a lifetime subscription to Weekly World News >Ballistics
to
> > know something about real weapons.
> >
> > This is just pointless flaming. The guy's a veteran, P.J. What the
> > hell do you know about firearms that makes you qualified to
> > critique him?
>
specify
> weapons here, some may think I'm calling him a medic or M.D.), and we are
our
> country : )
>
> And now for a little humor:
>
> Has anyone given any thought as to what gravity, the moon's gravity, the
effect of
> drains north of the equator swirling in a different direction than drains
south of
> the equator, the unending repercussions of the big bang, and the magnetic
fields of
> the earth had on all them bullets? And what about time / space relativity? And
who
> can forget the aliens at Roswell? They may have all had an effect.
Hmmm. Well since you ask such a serious on topic question let's see....
let's say shooting from 100 yards with a 2000 ft per sec bullet
that's 300ft at 2000 ftps
that's approx 0.15 seconds
The vertical displacement due to gravity (ie how much it drops vertically off
the target being aimed at) would be:
5 x (0.15)^2 metres
= 0.1125 metres
[ouch! that's a lot more than I expected!]
that's about 10 cm at 100 yards.
Tony Pitman
Steve Keating
John Ritchson wrote:
> By all means post your proof. Snipers, Craig Roberts, and Gunny
> Hathcock will be most interested to see that they had it wrong all
> this time.
Greg has indicated that he already has it posted. What he is saying is that rifles ordered from Kleins equipped with the same scope and
mount worked fine for both the scope and iron sight choice.Your veiled attempts to prove that LHO could not have used either the scope or
the iron sight ring hollow. He did, plain and simple. We will never know which he used, nor do we need to at this point.
Steve K.
gm...@jfk.org
root@*webquay.com (K.B.) wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 21:00:48 -0600, Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Bob Vernon wrote:
> >>
> >> Allow me to clearly explain this - hoepfully for the last time - for some
> >> reason Jaynes and Mack and the Dallas Krewe of Kennedy seem to think that
> >> Rademacher perpetrated some sort of hoax, it was transferred to Joe West,
> >> and then to James Files.
> >
> >Since I have no proof that Joe West took Rademachers story
> >and modified it for Files I have not directly made the accusation.
> >But since you have so eloquently explained it, I will say yes
> >that is what I suspect happened.
> >
> >
> >My impression goes like this:
> >
> >Rademacher finds the .222 shell casings
> >
> >Rademacher developes his theory involving the Remington Fireball.
> >Passes around pictures of one that has been altered to say .222
> >to match his shell casings
>
> At the time we are talking about, or any time, the shell, case,
> cartridge, whatever you want to call it, that was fired out of a .221
> Fireball could have very well been marked as .222. The shell itself
> can be modified to fit. This works both ways. With reloading dies, a
> 221 could be stretched to fit the .222 or a .222 could be shortened
> for the .221. A 30.06 case can be modified to fire out of a 25.06.
Keith, you misunderstand. The handout John Rademacher gave us in Jim Marrs'
non-credit class came from a gun book. The caption said the shell was a .221
but someone changed the "1" to a "2" so it would read .222, which matched the
two shells John claimed to have found.
John brought copies of his handout, which he distributed to class members. He
ran out before I received mine, but Dave Perry got one and kept it. It's
posted on Greg's web page.
Gary Mack
> > a.) motorcade route change
> > b.) how much he got paid
> > c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
> > to have been block with barriers
> >etc;
> >
> >They also were not expecting the Paschall film which
> >is going to show there were two people behind the
> >fence. In Files story he tells it like he was the only
> >one in that area.
> >
> >Additionally good copies of the Paschall film which
> >are not in circulation yet will show the vehicles
> >directly behind the corner of the picket fence and
> >along both legs of the fence.
> >
> >I asked Bob Vernon to have Files describe and draw a map
> >of the layout and types of vehicles that were there.
> >
> >If he was there then he should know.
> >
> >We'll see.
> >
> >-end of my impression
> >--
> > Greg Jaynes
> >
> >http://www.flash.net/~jaynes
> > THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
>
> Keith Bruner
> Just another memory free humanoid.
>
--
Gary Mack
Archivist
The Sixth Floor Museum
Bob Vernon
First, there is no Dallas PD evidence that Oswald fired a rifle on 11/22/63.
Secondly, you're saying Ozzie did fire a rifle that day.
Then ask Roberts why he didn't help his good old buddy John Stockwell in
Blue, Texas.
And tell him hello for me.
Bob Vernon
Steve Keating <jkea...@lucent.com> wrote in message
363D792E...@lucent.com...
drt...@my-dejanews.com
So what? Rademacher is entitled to an opinion, just like anyone. WHat
matters i the truth and what Jaynes says happened here is a lie.
NEVER HAPPENED.
Forget it.
Bob Vernon
> ‰
e...@opus.co.tt
I figured it out in another thread. The vertical drop of the bullet due to
gravity can be compensated by using a sniper scope with horizontal marks
corresponding to range. You estimate the range of the target and use the
appropriate horizontal mark through the scope when you're firing.
Bob Vernon
>.221 or .222, both could have been fired from the Fireball. What the
>shell case says means nothing. Except for shell length, they are the
>same bullet and either could have been modified to work in which ever
>modification of the Fireball was being used. I understand that you and
>Greg are trying to say Files changed his story to match the caliber of
>shell casing found, right? Also Greg at least is having a hard time
>with the statement that the gun itself gave problems?
>Accepting that Files was a bit of a hitman, he would know, based on
>the other things he says, that the shell itself could be modified to
>fit the particular caliber. So why come out with an elaborate lie, ie
>gun modified? Doesn't make sense. Some times a gun or a car is a
>lemon. Maybe the .221 Files had was no good so they went back to the
>original chambered weapon which was tried and proven. It would be very
>easy to make a Fireball, which was a sawn off Model 600 Remington
>chambered for .222, why not just say that is what he used? This area
>where he seemingly lies, kind of says he is actually speaking the
>truth, to me.
>The .222 Remington fired out of a rifle is an incredibly accurate
>round and is a favorite of target shooters and varmint hunters all
>over the world. The Fireball as a long barrelled pistol continues with
>that tradition and is a favorite of competitive shooters. As an
>assassanation weapon, in the pistol range of choices, it is without
>peer.
>Bob Vernon says it is powerful. it really isn't if compared with any
>of the .30 calibre choices or even a .270 or 25-06 but it has plenty
>of power to kill a man and with a bit of mercury or water in the nose,
>is pretty explosive.
>Maybe Rademacher is the problem here, I don't know. Has he been
>checked out....did he know Files?
Honest question, honest answer. John Rademacher is a good guy. He's worked
hard all his life. He's supported a family and put a kid or two through
school doing lawn services work. He's NEVER lied to me or to any of our
team.
I've literally picked him up by the neck over the Files .222 casing stuff.
Ask him. He'll tell you.
There is no way on God's green earth that Rademacher fabricated or is
involved with any hoax of any type regardng James Files. He found a casing
and he found another one. He had his own personal opinions and he issued
them to the public. He has that right, you know. This is America. But let
me assure you and then let me reassure you, John Rademacher is a simple
American God fearing man with a heart and a special soul. He has fabricated
nothing. He means no harm. And, And, And, he has agreed to take a lie
dectector test as per the FBI's request. Guess what? They didn't give him
one.
I mean calling West a conspirator
>with Files is easy with no Joe West left alive to defend himself. And
>what is Files motive for making this confession? Immunity? Profits
>from proceeds of book or movie? Notoriety? Heck, he could write a
>book about his life and get lots of notoriety.
James Files has NEVER asked for anyhting except to be left alone. He DOES
not desire a "place in history."
>If he is a liar as you beleive, why not support the vote to get him
>before a grand jury? Let the courts prove he is a liar. You and Greg
>and whoever else that does not put any credibility in Files would be
>vindicated. Or the opposite. Which if it was proven in a court of law
>he was a shooter on that day, would satisfy your needs as a
>researcher. If Files were to be found guilty in a court of law, it
>would prove conspiracy. Then you serious researchers could get busy
>and prove who gave the orders....the real fun would begin. Or even
>better, find out just who the heck Oswald really was.
A VERY sensible observation. You are to be commended, Sir.
>And while I have your attention Bob Vernon, have you looked for or
>found "wolfman"?
You can book it. Here's what happened. James FIles called Wolfman to
Joliet and TOLD Wolfman that he (Files) had talked to Joe West about the
"JFK thing." Files asked Wolfman to talk to Joe. About a week or so later,
Wolfman died. We do not know the cause of his death.
Thank you, Sir......for getting down.......to the truth.
Bob Vernon
K.B.
checked out....did he know Files? I mean calling West a conspirator
with Files is easy with no Joe West left alive to defend himself. And
what is Files motive for making this confession? Immunity? Profits
from proceeds of book or movie? Notoriety? Heck, he could write a
book about his life and get lots of notoriety.
If he is a liar as you beleive, why not support the vote to get him
before a grand jury? Let the courts prove he is a liar. You and Greg
and whoever else that does not put any credibility in Files would be
vindicated. Or the opposite. Which if it was proven in a court of law
he was a shooter on that day, would satisfy your needs as a
researcher. If Files were to be found guilty in a court of law, it
would prove conspiracy. Then you serious researchers could get busy
and prove who gave the orders....the real fun would begin. Or even
better, find out just who the heck Oswald really was.
And while I have your attention Bob Vernon, have you looked for or
found "wolfman"?
>> >
Sam McClung
HYPOTHESES ABOUT FIRING BULLETS IN GUNS THEY ARE NOT MADE FOR
Keith Bruner, excellent discussion. A thought just hit me while reading
your text.
I believe a .38 (or is it a .38 special? for that matter, I forget the
difference between a .38 and a .38 special) round can be fired from a
.357 gun (but not vice-versa)...I wonder if a .221 (Fireball) round can
be fired from a .222 Fireball gun (but not vice-versa), further
complicating the possibilities to be discussed.
(I also believe if the difference in the round length is too great (like
a 9 mm parabellum vs. a 9 mm Largo), the shorter round cannot be fired
in the longer round gun, but the difference between a .221 vs. a .222
seems miniscule...time to call on the experts...... : )
Sam
gm...@jfk.org
Yes it matters, because someone, presumably John, changed the caption from
.221 to .222. Why? At that time, he didn't know anything about the XP-100
other than the standard info in gun books. Those books refer to stock models
as either .221 or .223...there's no mention of a .222 whichis the shell he
found.
> both could have been fired from the Fireball.
I don't know that and I'd like to hear it from someone other than Vernon.
The important thing is that Files claims to have used a modified weapon
because the .221 barrel wasn't strong enough for the .222 and it kept blowing
up in the shooter's face (as in serious injury or death!)
So the Files story has him using a modified weapon that held a BIGGER bullet.
But if you hollow out the barrel even more, you weaken it. This makes no
sense. You weaken the barrel to make it stronger?
> What the
> >shell case says means nothing. Except for shell length, they are the
> >same bullet and either could have been modified to work in which ever
> >modification of the Fireball was being used. I understand that you and
> >Greg are trying to say Files changed his story to match the caliber of
> >shell casing found, right?
I'm not trying to do anything. I just notice discrepancies in his story.
> Also Greg at least is having a hard time
> >with the statement that the gun itself gave problems?
> >Accepting that Files was a bit of a hitman, he would know, based on
> >the other things he says, that the shell itself could be modified to
> >fit the particular caliber. So why come out with an elaborate lie, ie
> >gun modified? Doesn't make sense.
For unknown reasons, Rademacher decided the .222 shell came from an exotic
weapon. As he told us on several occasions, he searched the gun magazines
until he found one. But what he found, the XP-100, only fired .221 or .223
ammo. The clipping John distributed to the class had .221 changed to .222.
Check out Greg Jaynes' website to see Rademacher's clipping.
> Some times a gun or a car is a
> >lemon. Maybe the .221 Files had was no good so they went back to the
> >original chambered weapon which was tried and proven. It would be very
> >easy to make a Fireball, which was a sawn off Model 600 Remington
> >chambered for .222, why not just say that is what he used? This area
> >where he seemingly lies, kind of says he is actually speaking the
> >truth, to me.
> >The .222 Remington fired out of a rifle is an incredibly accurate
> >round and is a favorite of target shooters and varmint hunters all
> >over the world. The Fireball as a long barrelled pistol continues with
> >that tradition and is a favorite of competitive shooters. As an
> >assassanation weapon, in the pistol range of choices, it is without
> >peer.
> >Bob Vernon says it is powerful. it really isn't if compared with any
> >of the .30 calibre choices or even a .270 or 25-06 but it has plenty
> >of power to kill a man and with a bit of mercury or water in the nose,
> >is pretty explosive.
> >Maybe Rademacher is the problem here, I don't know. Has he been
> >checked out....did he know Files?
He probably did not know Files, but his story was in The Dallas Morning News
and on KTVT television here and it could have been brought to Files'
attention.
>
> Honest question, honest answer. John Rademacher is a good guy. He's worked
> hard all his life. He's supported a family and put a kid or two through
> school doing lawn services work. He's NEVER lied to me or to any of our
> team.
>
> I've literally picked him up by the neck over the Files .222 casing stuff.
>
> Ask him. He'll tell you.
>
> There is no way on God's green earth that Rademacher fabricated or is
> involved with any hoax of any type regardng James Files. He found a casing
> and he found another one. He had his own personal opinions and he issued
> them to the public.
If he didn't fabricate the calibre in that clipping, does he know who did?
> He has that right, you know. This is America. But let
> me assure you and then let me reassure you, John Rademacher is a simple
> American God fearing man with a heart and a special soul. He has fabricated
> nothing. He means no harm. And, And, And, he has agreed to take a lie
> dectector test as per the FBI's request. Guess what? They didn't give him
> one.
>
> I mean calling West a conspirator
> >with Files is easy with no Joe West left alive to defend himself. And
> >what is Files motive for making this confession? Immunity? Profits
> >from proceeds of book or movie? Notoriety? Heck, he could write a
> >book about his life and get lots of notoriety.
>
> James Files has NEVER asked for anyhting except to be left alone. He DOES
> not desire a "place in history."
Who was going to receive the money from the NBC/James Files special that got
canceled?
>
> >If he is a liar as you beleive, why not support the vote to get him
> >before a grand jury? Let the courts prove he is a liar. You and Greg
> >and whoever else that does not put any credibility in Files would be
> >vindicated. Or the opposite. Which if it was proven in a court of law
> >he was a shooter on that day, would satisfy your needs as a
> >researcher. If Files were to be found guilty in a court of law, it
> >would prove conspiracy. Then you serious researchers could get busy
> >and prove who gave the orders....the real fun would begin. Or even
> >better, find out just who the heck Oswald really was.
>
> A VERY sensible observation. You are to be commended, Sir.
>
> >And while I have your attention Bob Vernon, have you looked for or
> >found "wolfman"?
>
> You can book it. Here's what happened. James FIles called Wolfman to
> Joliet and TOLD Wolfman that he (Files) had talked to Joe West about the
> "JFK thing." Files asked Wolfman to talk to Joe. About a week or so later,
> Wolfman died. We do not know the cause of his death.
>
> Thank you, Sir......for getting down.......to the truth.
>
> Bob Vernon
>
>
--
Gary Mack
Bob Vernon
<gm...@jfk.org> wrote in message 71nejo$lvo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
Amazing....Mack debunked himself in one paragraph just like Jaynes. It
doesn't take a nuclear scientist to figure out that if a guy reads that
there are .221 shells and then .223 shells and he finds a .222 shell, well
guess what....RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE. So then John started talking to experts
and reading more gunbooks and soon learned that the .221 and .222 and .223
could be used in an XP-100. No consipracy there, folks.
>
>> both could have been fired from the Fireball.
>
>I don't know that and I'd like to hear it from someone other than Vernon.
>The important thing is that Files claims to have used a modified weapon
>because the .221 barrel wasn't strong enough for the .222 and it kept
blowing
>up in the shooter's face (as in serious injury or death!)
>
>So the Files story has him using a modified weapon that held a BIGGER
bullet.
>But if you hollow out the barrel even more, you weaken it. This makes no
>sense. You weaken the barrel to make it stronger?
>
>> What the
>> >shell case says means nothing. Except for shell length, they are the
>> >same bullet and either could have been modified to work in which ever
>> >modification of the Fireball was being used. I understand that you and
>> >Greg are trying to say Files changed his story to match the caliber of
>> >shell casing found, right?
>
>I'm not trying to do anything. I just notice discrepancies in his story.
Debunked yourself again. Have you cosndiered a vacation? Read this
carefully: YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT FILES' TOTAL CONFESSION IS.......are you
clear on that yet?
YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT FILES TOTAL CONFESSION IS. Come to grips with it.
Debunked again folks. There was no mention of the dents found in the .222
casing in either the newspaper or the TV story.
Come to grips with it.
>
>>
>> Honest question, honest answer. John Rademacher is a good guy. He's
worked
>> hard all his life. He's supported a family and put a kid or two through
>> school doing lawn services work. He's NEVER lied to me or to any of our
>> team.
>>
>> I've literally picked him up by the neck over the Files .222 casing
stuff.
>>
>> Ask him. He'll tell you.
>>
>> There is no way on God's green earth that Rademacher fabricated or is
>> involved with any hoax of any type regardng James Files. He found a
casing
>> and he found another one. He had his own personal opinions and he issued
>> them to the public.
>
>If he didn't fabricate the calibre in that clipping, does he know who did?
First I will find my ORIGINAL copy of the stuff John Rademacher gave me.
ANd let me say this....if it does not have the .221 changed to a .222, Mack
there is only one answer.....someone else changed it......Now I WONDER who
that someone might be.....?
>
>> He has that right, you know. This is America. But let
>> me assure you and then let me reassure you, John Rademacher is a simple
>> American God fearing man with a heart and a special soul. He has
fabricated
>> nothing. He means no harm. And, And, And, he has agreed to take a lie
>> dectector test as per the FBI's request. Guess what? They didn't give
him
>> one.
>>
>> I mean calling West a conspirator
>> >with Files is easy with no Joe West left alive to defend himself. And
>> >what is Files motive for making this confession? Immunity? Profits
>> >from proceeds of book or movie? Notoriety? Heck, he could write a
>> >book about his life and get lots of notoriety.
>>
>> James Files has NEVER asked for anyhting except to be left alone. He
DOES
>> not desire a "place in history."
>
>Who was going to receive the money from the NBC/James Files special that
got
>canceled?
Oh, you mean the one that you did everything in your power to kill.
Well, for startes, Mrs. West would have had the money to pay off the medical
bills of Joe West which are almost $200,000. The rest was shared fairly
between the producers who did the work.
Our total share would have left us about $200,000 in the hole BUT, we are
long past the point of making money. We are focused on the truth.
We leave all the money making to your circus in Dallas.
>
>>
>> >If he is a liar as you beleive, why not support the vote to get him
>> >before a grand jury? Let the courts prove he is a liar. You and Greg
>> >and whoever else that does not put any credibility in Files would be
>> >vindicated. Or the opposite. Which if it was proven in a court of law
>> >he was a shooter on that day, would satisfy your needs as a
>> >researcher. If Files were to be found guilty in a court of law, it
>> >would prove conspiracy. Then you serious researchers could get busy
>> >and prove who gave the orders....the real fun would begin. Or even
>> >better, find out just who the heck Oswald really was.
>>
>> A VERY sensible observation. You are to be commended, Sir.
>>
>> >And while I have your attention Bob Vernon, have you looked for or
>> >found "wolfman"?
>>
>> You can book it. Here's what happened. James FIles called Wolfman to
>> Joliet and TOLD Wolfman that he (Files) had talked to Joe West about the
>> "JFK thing." Files asked Wolfman to talk to Joe. About a week or so
later,
>> Wolfman died. We do not know the cause of his death.
>>
>> Thank you, Sir......for getting down.......to the truth.
Ho-hum........
Bob Vernon
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
root@*webquay.com (K.B.)
Can you explain to all the superiority of mercury over lead in a bullet?
What mechanical property does mercury have to make it the insert of choice?
Why do only alleged assassins use this substance?
How is the switch from lead to mercury accomplished?
How much is inserted into the .22 caliber bullet?
What keeps the mercury in the hollow-point bullet?
What keeps the mercury from boiling out of the hollow-point bullet when the
bullet is heated during the firing sequence?
What characteristic of 'explosion' is mercury capable of at the target?
Can a substance with no mechanical strength actually do what is claimed?
How do you know this?
pjb...@my-dejanews.com
The difference between the .222 Remington and the .221 Fireball IS
significant. The Fireball case is .3 inches shorter. It might be capable of
being chambered in a .222 action, but the cartridge is intended to headspace
on the shoulder, which would be .3 inches back from the shoulder in the .222
chamber. It might just be driven forward when the primer is struck by the
firing pin. If it ignites, the case front end would expand if not fracture due
to the lack of support at the shoulder and the neck. Not something anyone
should attempt to determine.
K.B.
wrote:
>Caveat to readers: DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TEST ANY OF THE FOLLOWING
>HYPOTHESES ABOUT FIRING BULLETS IN GUNS THEY ARE NOT MADE FOR
>
>Keith Bruner, excellent discussion. A thought just hit me while reading
>your text.
>
>I believe a .38 (or is it a .38 special? for that matter, I forget the
>difference between a .38 and a .38 special) round can be fired from a
>.357 gun (but not vice-versa)...I wonder if a .221 (Fireball) round can
>be fired from a .222 Fireball gun (but not vice-versa), further
>complicating the possibilities to be discussed.
>
>(I also believe if the difference in the round length is too great (like
>a 9 mm parabellum vs. a 9 mm Largo), the shorter round cannot be fired
>in the longer round gun, but the difference between a .221 vs. a .222
>seems miniscule...time to call on the experts...... : )
>
>
>Sam
>
Hi Sam, good question, and I will give my qualified answer while
waiting for the experts. I do not beleive the .221 could be fired from
a .222 chambered gun safely. As I see part of the problem with this
whole discussion........Bob Vernon does not strike me as too
knowledgable about guns and some of his answers may be assumptions. A
direct line to Files would be kewl.
K.B.
wrote:
Bob, the way this is going, I hope you have some documentation about
"wolfmans" visit to the prison and his death. If Files is telling the
truth, or part of the truth, then there is going to be a smear
campaign and possibly his life will be in danger even more. Because he
has stated that he fired a shot that hit JFK and all the other things
he has said then it is incumbent upon the A.G. to get him up before a
jury to find the complete truth. Have you shown Files any of the pics
that Jack White has of Oswald and tried to determin which Oswald Files
knew?
Steve Keating
"K.B." wrote:
>
> Bob, the way this is going, I hope you have some documentation about
> "wolfmans" visit to the prison and his death. If Files is telling the
> truth, or part of the truth, then there is going to be a smear
> campaign and possibly his life will be in danger even more.
A better question to ask yourself is "why would Files confess to the murder of
the century if it would place him in great danger and possibily get him
executed?"
Steve K.
Jean Davison
> In article <19981031180916...@ng135.aol.com>,
> atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
> > >Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
> >
> > >> b.) how much he got paid
> > >> c.) driving away on houston street which turns out
> > >> to have been block with barriers etc;
> >
> > apart stuff with. The motorcade thing isn't something
>
> From the transcript at http://www.geocities.com/~bobkatmusic/confession2.htm
> ===quote=== Johnny Rosselli said well they only made one change.(13) That was
> when he informed me they was coming off of Main Street on to Elm or on to
> Houston there...they made the zig-zag, the little turn that they should have
> never made. But when they ===unquote=== What he actually said in the
> transcript was that Rosselli made mention of some change. Like you said,
> Files wouldn't even have known about that himself.
The point is, fellows,.... there WAS no change in the parade
route. From the first day that the route was announced, Elm
Street was included. So how could Roselli be describing
a zigzag from Main Street to include Elm, when that didn't
happen?
The "last-minute change" in the motorcade route is a myth that
appears in a number of conspiracy books, so I can't say for sure
where he got it, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't from Johnny Roselli.
Jean
<snip>
Bob Vernon
knowledge.
I'm busy right now with something important but I will return to show her
the truth and prove that she is as full of chicken droppings as are Mack and
Jaynes.
Believe me. Hang in there.
Dr. Truth
Jean Davison <dav...@together.net> wrote in message
01be0770$c6682c40$Loca...@NS1.together.net...
r...@iname.com
pjb...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <363e46ca....@cnews.newsguy.com>,
> root@*webquay.com (K.B.)
> Can you explain to all the superiority of mercury over lead in a bullet?
No. Never needed one.
> What mechanical property does mercury have to make it the insert of choice?
Have no idea. Do you?
> Why do only alleged assassins use this substance?
I give up. Never killed a person.
> How is the switch from lead to mercury accomplished?
No switch. Mercury is loaded into hollow point then capped with wax.
> How much is inserted into the .22 caliber bullet?
Enough to fill up the whole I guess.
> What keeps the mercury in the hollow-point bullet?
Wax. Is there an echo in here?
> What keeps the mercury from boiling out of the hollow-point bullet when the
> bullet is heated during the firing sequence?
Air? Centrifugal force...?
> What characteristic of 'explosion' is mercury capable of at the target?
Have you seen the Z film?
> Can a substance with no mechanical strength actually do what is claimed?
I guess. You tell me.....after you state your credentials and they are
verified.
> How do you know this?
Highly trained covert assassins and professional gunsmiths have told me.
Any more questions? No?
Thank you,
Bob Vernon
‰
Tony Pitman
It turns out that the 6.5 MC round does indeed drop around 10cm or just
over 4ins for the first 100yds.
A sniper scope will indeed make assessing the drop much easier because
of the markings but, alas, LHO's scope was far from one of those.
Tony
Sam McClung
Tony Pitman wrote:
> Basically they are mainly only of use when you want a small caliber
> round to do a big round's job and the smaller the caliber the quieter,
> at least wiht rifles usually. This is without getting into sonic booms.
>
> Tony
...as in, all bullets are supersonic, and make a "super sonic crack", and
the more powerful the round, the louder the "crack" ?
...meaning a smaller round that will have the same explosive impact will be
quieter?
Sam
Jean Davison
> What this lady lacks - if it is a lady - is common sense and investigative
> knowledge.
Why do you keep implying that I'm using a fake ID? Your
investigators should've checked the Dallas Morning News, 11/19/63,
page 1, where they could see that the motorcade route on
the day it was first announced included Elm Street, by name.
> I'm busy right now with something important but I will return to show her
> the truth and prove that she is as full of chicken droppings as are Mack and
> Jaynes.
Is that right? How are you going to do that, Bob? Jean
Bob Vernon
Jean Davison <dav...@together.net> wrote in message
01be084a$d1d434e0$Loca...@NS1.together.net...
e...@opus.co.tt
What makes you pretty sure?
> <snip>
>
The Point, Jean, as you so aptly put it, is that Files statement does Not
alledge that there was any motocade route change.
You think Mafia Hitman Roselli is gonna rely on the daily newspaper for
directions? He musta had a tentative route, lair and weapon, weeks in advance
and the information he received on the day of the hit was the final.