Madeleine Brown and the infamous Murchison party
Jim Hargrove
Assassination writers from Penn Jones to Harrison Livingstone have long
suggested that a party held at Texas oilman Clint Murchison's home on
November 21, 1963 was actually a cover for a final meeting on the
assassination of John Kennedy. Livingstone writes that he has verified the
attendance of, among others, J. Edgar Hoover, Lyndon Johnson, H.L. Hunt, and
John J. McCloy. He also wrote that Madeleine Brown, an LBJ mistress,
confirmed Penn Jones' published report that Richard Nixon attended the
party. [_Killing the Truth_, 484]
Citing a personal interview with Brown, Livingstone writes that Johnson
arrived late to the party (and therefore may have attended only part of the
closed-door session that included some or all of the above-named men). As
she was about to leave the Murchison home, Johnson emerged from the private
meeting and told her and others standing near her: "After tomorrow, that's
the last time those goddamned Kennedys will embarrass me again." [Ibid, 486]
Does anyone know of earlier published reports of this well-known anecdote?
Since Brown indicated that others also heard Johnson make the statement, is
anyone aware of reports from others at the party confirming or debunking her
story?
--Jim Hargrove
The letters "KILLSPAM" were added to my address as an anti-spam measure.
If you wish to send me email, remove "KILLSPAM" from my address before sending.
Greg Jaynes
Roger Craig made up the story. Penn Jones got it from him.
Who knows what point Madeline came up with it? Craig told
the story to Penn Jones. He said he was working as a stocker
at a grocery store and one of the other stockers told Craig
that his mother attended this party.
Madeline say's the party occured at Clint Murchison's
home in Dallas. That is not likely because Murchison
did not live in Dallas in 1963.
Greg Jaynes
Fathom
> Roger Craig made up the story.
How on earth can you make such an assertion? Did Craig tell you that?
I have heard from one researcher that he heard of this from Brown before
it was ever published. Conceivably, Brown could have made it up, but you'd
better find a motive for her to do so before tossing off your accusations.
--
To reply by e-mail, please address to fat...@sonic.net
8 8 8 8 8 8 8
These opinions are not my own--I am channeling them from the Higher Realms.
Disagree at your peril.
Martin Shackelford
Greg:
Former Dallas reporter Connie Kritzberg did some research on the
party for her book in collaboration with Madeleine, Dallas Did It!.
The remark about Kennedy was made at the party, but privately to
Madeleine.
Val Imm, Dallas Times Herald Society Editor, attended the main
party, as did Jeanne Barnes, an editor at the Dallas Morning News.
Others identified as present were J. Edgar Hoover, John J.
McCloy, Clint Murchison Sr., R.L. Thornton, Peter O'Donnell, George
Brown, other Brown & Root executives, and--arriving late--LBJ. There was
a private 20 minute meeting among the men, then they rejoined the main
party, at which time LBJ made his private comment to Madeleine.
Val Imm wrote a column about the party on the women's page, but
it didn't appear in all editions. In later years, she intially confirmed
her attendance at the party. Then she married Parkland doctor Fauod
Bashour, and began denying she had attended it.
Contacted by researcher Larry Howard, Jeanne Barnes confirmed
her attendance at the gathering.
Jane Wolfe's book The Murchisons, mentioned that in the early
1960s, Murchison moved out of "the big house" in Dallas, living mainly
in East Texas. The house went to his son John, but John mostly lived in
New York, so the family used the house for Dallas social gatherings,
even though that wasn't their regular residence.
Martin
Greg Jaynes
Fathom wrote:
>
> In article <34B592...@flash.net>, Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> > Roger Craig made up the story.
>
> How on earth can you make such an assertion? Did Craig tell you that?
No. Roger Craig told Penn Jones and his former wife L.A. Jones.
L.A. Jones told me.
Jim Marrs gave me a lead about the driver who allegedly
drove Nixon to the alleged party. He said Penn Jones
had told him the story but refused to reveal his source.
I wanted to ask Penn Jones what the deal was and why he
was being so coy. But Jones was too ill to talk to me. So I got
the phone number of his ex wife L.A. from the people who
bought the Midlothian Mirror newspaper from Jones and called her
to ask if she could shed any light.
She knew all about it and told me about Craig
telling her and her husband the story.
> I have heard from one researcher that he heard of this from Brown before
> it was ever published.
Before Penn Jones published it?
>Conceivably, Brown could have made it up, but you'd
>better find a motive for her to do so before tossing
>off your accusations.
She probably heard it somewhere. I don't know where or when.
I have no responsibility to provide motivations for Madeline.
Key parts of her story cannot be true. Clint Murchison, Sr.
jack white
ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE OWNER OF THE DALLAS COWBOYS DID NOT LIVE IN DALLAS????
BETTER PROVE THIS, GREG!
JACK
>
> Greg Jaynes
Fathom
In article <694bbo$8...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
bar...@ix.netcom.com(Barb Junkkarinen) wrote:
> BTW, Madeleine Brown has never said LBJ knew about the assassination in
> advance. That is the interpretation others put on what LBJ said to
> her....hindsight being better than 20/20 and all. There was alot of
> politicking and posturing going on in Texas at that time and during
> that trip....any number of possibilities exist as to what LBJ may have
> meant by that line.
My usually-fertile imagination is failing me, Barb.
Can you or anyone come up with a hypothetical explanation for such a remark--
that is, assuming it is reported correctly--
that would be innocent of foreknowledge of the assassination?
Pearl Gladstone
Jim Hargrove wrote:
>
> Assassination writers from Penn Jones to Harrison Livingstone have long
> suggested that a party held at Texas oilman Clint Murchison's home on
> November 21, 1963 was actually a cover for a final meeting on the
> assassination of John Kennedy. Livingstone writes that he has verified the
> attendance of, among others, J. Edgar Hoover, Lyndon Johnson, H.L. Hunt, and
> John J. McCloy. He also wrote that Madeleine Brown, an LBJ mistress,
> confirmed Penn Jones' published report that Richard Nixon attended the
> party. [_Killing the Truth_, 484]
>
> Citing a personal interview with Brown, Livingstone writes that Johnson
> arrived late to the party (and therefore may have attended only part of the
> closed-door session that included some or all of the above-named men). As
> she was about to leave the Murchison home, Johnson emerged from the private
> meeting and told her and others standing near her: "After tomorrow, that's
> the last time those goddamned Kennedys will embarrass me again." [Ibid, 486]
>
> Does anyone know of earlier published reports of this well-known anecdote?
>
> Since Brown indicated that others also heard Johnson make the statement, is
> anyone aware of reports from others at the party confirming or debunking her
> story?
>
> --Jim Hargrove
> The letters "KILLSPAM" were added to my address as an anti-spam measure.
> If you wish to send me email, remove "KILLSPAM" from my address before sending.
This is just a bit of info on the big oil friendship with Johnson from
"A Texan Looks at Lyndon" by J. Evetts Halley. Halley says that many of
the big oil men of Texas supported Johnson in '64 despite the Dem. Party
platform that included the feared repeal of the oil depletion tax break.
That party is such a fascinating, (and likely) scenario. All of the
players were in the vicinity.
I saw Brown interviewed on TV awhile back. I don't believe she mentioned
the party, but she did say that Johnson told her it was a conspiracy.
More details on her story would be interesting. These guys who play with
power can be mighty careless. The need to show machismo is not to be
minimized.
Barb Junkkarinen
>Who knows what point Madeline came up with it? Craig told
>the story to Penn Jones. He said he was working as a stocker
>at a grocery store and one of the other stockers told Craig
>that his mother attended this party.
>
>Madeline say's the party occured at Clint Murchison's
>home in Dallas. That is not likely because Murchison
>
Hi Greg,
Correct about Clint Murchison not living there at that time. However,
the house *was* still in the family and used for entertaining.
As for the earlier question about Madeleine Brown, I had a friend ask
her today to clarify the statement she says LBJ made after coming out
of the closed door meeting...here is a statement I received from Connie
Kritzberg this evening (Connie was a reporter for the Dallas Times
Herald at the time of the assassination and spoke to both Perry and
Clark on the phone that day, btw).....
QUOTE: Madeleine Brown repeated to me today, 1-8-98, that Lyndon
Johnson came out
and said to her, but in a tone that others could have heard, words to
this
effect: "After tomorrow, the *&** Irish Mafia Kennedys will never
embarrass
me again." Brown says he was cursing, so the words are not exact.
Val Imm denied to me that she attended such a party, and even at first
that
she knew Madeleine Brown, but with her memory refreshed, admitted that
she
knew and had been hired to make "voice over" commercials by Brown.END
QUOTE
Val Imm was the society page editor for the Dallas Times Herald. As
Connie wrote in DALLAS DID IT, "She [Madeleine] remember's that Val's
column about the party appeared on the front page of the women's
section in its customary position. Having mislaid the column some
thirty years later, Madeleine called Val and asked if she had a copy.
Val told Madeleine that she was going on vacation but would look it up
when she returned. After her return, Val (now married to Dr. Faoud
Bashour, a member of the Parkland team which worked on the dying
President, decided that she hadn't been there afterall. Madeline was
surprised because she vividly remembered the column, and searched for
the column at the Dallas library. The edition saved on microfilm did
not carry the column, a matter that has frustrated Madeleine for
years."
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
In <no-spam-0801...@d113.pm3.sonic.net> no-...@sonic.net
>
>
before
you'd
>better find a motive for her to do so before tossing off your
accusations.
I agree. :-) The Craig story sounds pretty dubious to me. Madeleine
Brown and I have a good mutual friend in common...and I have spoken to
and corresponded with Madeleine Brown. I don't know when the first
"party story" was put in print...but I'm sure it was after Madeline
first told anyone about it. :-)
BTW, Madeleine Brown has never said LBJ knew about the assassination in
advance. That is the interpretation others put on what LBJ said to
her....hindsight being better than 20/20 and all. There was alot of
politicking and posturing going on in Texas at that time and during
that trip....any number of possibilities exist as to what LBJ may have
meant by that line. Unfortunately, there are people who seem to feel
the need to "kill the messenger" where Brown is concerned...or at least
trash her.
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
In <34B5BC...@flash.net> Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> writes:
[...]
>She probably heard it somewhere. I don't know where or when.
>I have no responsibility to provide motivations for Madeline.
>Key parts of her story cannot be true. Clint Murchison, Sr.
>did not live in Dallas in 1963.
>
>Greg Jaynes
Hi Greg,
You seem to decide alot based on Clint Murchison not living in Dallas
at the time. :-)
From DALLAS DID IT:
QUOTE
According to Jane Wolfe, author of THE MURCHISONS, in the early 1960s
Clint Sr. had decided that the "big house" was more than he and his
wife, Ginny, needed since the boys were grown. John Dabney Murchison,
his youngest son, and family were in too small a home (for the
Murchisons) -- ergo, the two families should swap homes. Never mind
that John's wife, Lupe, had other ideas. The switch was made. In coming
years, Clint Sr. lived more often in East Texas and John soon became an
almost full time New York City resident. That left the "big house"
available for social events. The party that night was one such event.
END QUOTE
Barb :-)
Greg Jaynes
jack white wrote:
>
> Greg Jaynes wrote:
> >
> > Fathom wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Roger Craig made up the story.
> > >
> > > How on earth can you make such an assertion? Did Craig tell you that?
> >
> > L.A. Jones told me.
> >
> > Jim Marrs gave me a lead about the driver who allegedly
> > drove Nixon to the alleged party. He said Penn Jones
> > had told him the story but refused to reveal his source.
> >
> > I wanted to ask Penn Jones what the deal was and why he
> > was being so coy. But Jones was too ill to talk to me. So I got
> > the phone number of his ex wife L.A. from the people who
> > bought the Midlothian Mirror newspaper from Jones and called her
> > to ask if she could shed any light.
> >
> > She knew all about it and told me about Craig
> > telling her and her husband the story.
> >
> > > it was ever published.
> >
> >
> > >better find a motive for her to do so before tossing
> > >off your accusations.
> >
> > I have no responsibility to provide motivations for Madeline.
> > Key parts of her story cannot be true. Clint Murchison, Sr.
> > did not live in Dallas in 1963.
>
> BETTER PROVE THIS, GREG!
>
> JACK
No. The owner of the Dallas Cowboys was Clint Murchison Jr.
He lived on Forest Lane in Dallas in a high tech home that
he designed.
Madeline did not say she attended a party at Clint Jr.'s house.
She specifically say's the party was at the home of Clint Sr. whom
she say's she knew. She said the party was at the house the Clint Sr.
built which was where the old polo grounds had been.
She told me that she did not know Clint Jr.
Greg Jaynes
> >
> > Greg Jaynes
John McAdams
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
: Greg:
: Former Dallas reporter Connie Kritzberg did some research on the
: party for her book in collaboration with Madeleine, Dallas Did It!.
: The remark about Kennedy was made at the party, but privately to
: Madeleine.
: Val Imm, Dallas Times Herald Society Editor, attended the main
: party, as did Jeanne Barnes, an editor at the Dallas Morning News.
: Others identified as present were J. Edgar Hoover, John J.
: McCloy, Clint Murchison Sr., R.L. Thornton, Peter O'Donnell, George
: Brown, other Brown & Root executives, and--arriving late--LBJ. There was
: a private 20 minute meeting among the men, then they rejoined the main
: party, at which time LBJ made his private comment to Madeleine.
: Val Imm wrote a column about the party on the women's page, but
: it didn't appear in all editions. In later years, she intially confirmed
: her attendance at the party. Then she married Parkland doctor Fauod
: Bashour, and began denying she had attended it.
Martin, does the article in the DALLAS TIMES HERALD identify (1) J. Edgar
Hoover, (2) Richard Nixon, and (3) Lyndon Johnson as being there?
And if not, why not?
Manchester, for example, has LBJ at the hotel in Fort Worth on this
evening. Further, the Vice President was not the sort who could just slip
out unnoticed -- he had a civil service detail and a staff, for example.
You understand, don't you, that this sounds like a real party that got
"enhanced" by the addition of very important guests.
.John
Greg Jaynes
Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>
> In <34B5BC...@flash.net> Greg Jaynes <jay...@flash.net> writes:
>
> [...]
>
> >I have no responsibility to provide motivations for Madeline.
> >Key parts of her story cannot be true. Clint Murchison, Sr.
> >did not live in Dallas in 1963.
> >
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> You seem to decide alot based on Clint Murchison not living in Dallas
> at the time. :-)
Hello,
Well, there is also the fact that she claims Nixon was
at the party when in fact he was publicly visible
in the same audience as Joan Crawford at a dinner
theater on the evening of Nov 21, 1963.
>
> From DALLAS DID IT:
>
> QUOTE
>
> According to Jane Wolfe, author of THE MURCHISONS, in the early 1960s
> Clint Sr. had decided that the "big house" was more than he and his
> wife, Ginny, needed since the boys were grown. John Dabney Murchison,
> his youngest son, and family were in too small a home (for the
> Murchisons) -- ergo, the two families should swap homes. Never mind
> that John's wife, Lupe, had other ideas. The switch was made. In coming
> years, Clint Sr. lived more often in East Texas and John soon became an
> almost full time New York City resident. That left the "big house"
> available for social events. The party that night was one such event.
>
> END QUOTE
>
> Barb :-)
Clint Murchison wanted that home to stay in the family
for sentimental reasons.
John Murchison's wife Lupe did not want the house
because it was designed in the very gawdy style
of the Texas oil baron, ie in poor taste.
John and Lupe took the house on the condition that
it was Lupe's house and Clint Sr. had no say in the
way it was run. Lupe was hostess of that home, she owned
it and would not have Clint Sr. entertaining there. I believe
you can read this in the book by Jane Wolf that you have used
as a reference.
Greg Jaynes
Jim Hargrove
Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>As for the earlier question about Madeleine Brown, I had a friend ask
>her today to clarify the statement she says LBJ made after coming out
>of the closed door meeting...here is a statement I received from Connie
>Kritzberg this evening (Connie was a reporter for the Dallas Times
>Herald at the time of the assassination and spoke to both Perry and
>Clark on the phone that day, btw).....
>
>QUOTE: Madeleine Brown repeated to me today, 1-8-98, that Lyndon
>Johnson came out
>and said to her, but in a tone that others could have heard, words to
>this
>effect: "After tomorrow, the *&** Irish Mafia Kennedys will never
>embarrass
>me again." Brown says he was cursing, so the words are not exact.
>
>Val Imm denied to me that she attended such a party, and even at first
>that
>she knew Madeleine Brown, but with her memory refreshed, admitted that
>she
>knew and had been hired to make "voice over" commercials by Brown.END
>QUOTE
Thanks for this, Barb. Sounds like Livingstone retold the anecdote
accurately. Do you or does anyone else know if Ms. Brown remembers any of
the people standing near enough to her at the time to have overheard
Johnson's statement? Corroboration would be fascinating, but I've never
heard of any.
Interpretation of the remark is another question, no doubt, but it is
intriguing.
>Val Imm was the society page editor for the Dallas Times Herald. As
>Connie wrote in DALLAS DID IT, "She [Madeleine] remember's that Val's
>column about the party appeared on the front page of the women's
>section in its customary position. Having mislaid the column some
>thirty years later, Madeleine called Val and asked if she had a copy.
>Val told Madeleine that she was going on vacation but would look it up
>when she returned. After her return, Val (now married to Dr. Faoud
>Bashour, a member of the Parkland team which worked on the dying
>President, decided that she hadn't been there afterall. Madeline was
>surprised because she vividly remembered the column, and searched for
>the column at the Dallas library. The edition saved on microfilm did
>not carry the column, a matter that has frustrated Madeleine for
>years."
Curiouser and curiouser. Does the Dallas Times Herald still exist?
Barb Junkkarinen
In <34b638bb...@news.wwa.com> ji...@KILLSPAMwwa.com (Jim Hargrove)
writes:
Hi Jim,
Yes, looks like he got it right....Livingstone has heard Madeleine
speak of this incident many times. Madeleine denies ever having spoken
to Penn Jones, btw.
> Do you or does anyone else know if Ms. Brown remembers any of
>the people standing near enough to her at the time to have overheard
>Johnson's statement? Corroboration would be fascinating, but I've
never
>heard of any.
I don't know if she remembers who else may have heard it, but she does
remember some of the Dallas people present at the party....and perhaps
something can be done with that to at least corroborate the party and
the partiers.
>
>Interpretation of the remark is another question, no doubt, but it is
>intriguing.
>
>>Val Imm was the society page editor for the Dallas Times Herald. As
>>Connie wrote in DALLAS DID IT, "She [Madeleine] remember's that Val's
>>column about the party appeared on the front page of the women's
>>section in its customary position. Having mislaid the column some
>>thirty years later, Madeleine called Val and asked if she had a copy.
>>Val told Madeleine that she was going on vacation but would look it
up
>>when she returned. After her return, Val (now married to Dr. Faoud
>>Bashour, a member of the Parkland team which worked on the dying
>>President, decided that she hadn't been there afterall. Madeline was
>>surprised because she vividly remembered the column, and searched for
>>the column at the Dallas library. The edition saved on microfilm did
>>not carry the column, a matter that has frustrated Madeleine for
>>years."
>
>Curiouser and curiouser. Does the Dallas Times Herald still exist?
It does not...but I do not recall when it ceased publication.
Barb :-)
Howpl
Didn't she just come out with an autobiography? I saw it but didn't have time
to browse. Next time I looked for it, it was gone. Has anyone read it? Does
she repeat the claim there?
- Howard P
Greg Jaynes
John McAdams wrote:
>
> Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
> : Greg:
>
> : Former Dallas reporter Connie Kritzberg did some research on the
> : party for her book in collaboration with Madeleine, Dallas Did It!.
> : The remark about Kennedy was made at the party, but privately to
> : Madeleine.
> : Val Imm, Dallas Times Herald Society Editor, attended the main
> : party, as did Jeanne Barnes, an editor at the Dallas Morning News.
> : Others identified as present were J. Edgar Hoover, John J.
> : McCloy, Clint Murchison Sr., R.L. Thornton, Peter O'Donnell, George
> : Brown, other Brown & Root executives, and--arriving late--LBJ. There was
> : a private 20 minute meeting among the men, then they rejoined the main
> : party, at which time LBJ made his private comment to Madeleine.
> : Val Imm wrote a column about the party on the women's page, but
> : it didn't appear in all editions. In later years, she intially confirmed
> : her attendance at the party. Then she married Parkland doctor Fauod
> : Bashour, and began denying she had attended it.
>
> Martin, does the article in the DALLAS TIMES HERALD identify (1) J. Edgar
> Hoover, (2) Richard Nixon, and (3) Lyndon Johnson as being there?
>
> And if not, why not?
This is an excellent question!
Greg Jaynes
Greg Jaynes
Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>
> In <no-spam-0801...@d113.pm3.sonic.net> no-...@sonic.net
> (Fathom) writes:
> >
> wrote:
> >
> >> Roger Craig made up the story.
> >
> >How on earth can you make such an assertion? Did Craig tell you that?
> >
> before
> you'd
> >better find a motive for her to do so before tossing off your
> accusations.
>
If you are so doubtful then why don't you duplicate
my method and call L.A. Jones for yourself?
Then if you think it is dubious, you could have
some standing as opposed to to having an ill
founded and "dubious" opinion.
Then, I could tell you about my conversation
with Peter O'Donnell.
> Madeleine Brown and I have a good mutual friend in common...and I have
> spoken to and corresponded with Madeleine Brown.
I've been to her house a few times.
> I don't know when the first
> "party story" was put in print...but I'm sure it was after Madeline
> first told anyone about it. :-)
Just sort of a gut feeling, huh?
> BTW, Madeleine Brown has never said LBJ knew about the assassination in
> advance. That is the interpretation others put on what LBJ said to
> her....hindsight being better than 20/20 and all. There was alot of
> politicking and posturing going on in Texas at that time and during
> that trip....any number of possibilities exist as to what LBJ may have
> meant by that line. Unfortunately, there are people who seem to feel
> the need to "kill the messenger" where Brown is concerned...or at least
> trash her.
>
> Barb :-)
First of all, I know Madeline and I like her very much.
But my interest is in the truth. She has told me things
that I have verified, that turned out to be very
helpful. But the party story is BS. IMHO
Greg Jaynes
Barb Junkkarinen
In <19980109222...@ladder02.news.aol.com> ho...@aol.com
Howard,
I first read Madeleine's manuscript a couple of years ago. The title is
TEXAS IN THE MORNING and, yes, it has now been published. I *think* it
is still available through Andy at Last Hurrah...perhaps through JFK
Lancer too, but I am not sure.
Madeline tells of her experience at the party in TEXAS IN THE MORNING
as well as in a self-published short collaborative work by Madeleine
and Connie Kritberg a little over a year ago called DALLAS DID IT.
Anything Madeleine has ever said over the years has never changed as
far as I know.
Barb :-)
Jim Hargrove
Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>Hi Jim,
>
>Yes, looks like he got it right....Livingstone has heard Madeleine
>speak of this incident many times. Madeleine denies ever having spoken
>to Penn Jones, btw.
Which, of course, suggests independent confirmation.
>I don't know if she remembers who else may have heard it, but she does
>remember some of the Dallas people present at the party....and perhaps
>something can be done with that to at least corroborate the party and
>the partiers.
According to Livingstone writing in 1992 or '93, this remains pretty
dangerous territory, but do you have her list of people present, and, if so,
could you just, uh... er... uh... just post it here? I've provided some
space below for the list, and I'd be more than happy to send more if you
need it. <g>
No one needs to live forever! <g>
John McAdams
Jim Hargrove <ji...@KILLSPAMwwa.com> wrote:
: Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
: >Hi Jim,
: >
: >Yes, looks like he got it right....Livingstone has heard Madeleine
: >speak of this incident many times. Madeleine denies ever having spoken
: >to Penn Jones, btw.
: Which, of course, suggests independent confirmation.
: >I don't know if she remembers who else may have heard it, but she does
: >remember some of the Dallas people present at the party....and perhaps
: >something can be done with that to at least corroborate the party and
: >the partiers.
: According to Livingstone writing in 1992 or '93, this remains pretty
: dangerous territory, but do you have her list of people present, and, if so,
: could you just, uh... er... uh... just post it here? I've provided some
: space below for the list, and I'd be more than happy to send more if you
: need it. <g>
I've been reading this thread, and I've seen *nothing* in the way of
independent confirmation for Brown's story. There was an article in the
paper that (conveniently) has entirely disappeared.
Does *anybody* have independent confirmation of (1) the party, and (2) the
presence of J. Edgar Hoover, Richard Nixon, and LBJ?
.John
Barb Junkkarinen
In <no-spam-0801...@d54.pm15.sonic.net> no-...@sonic.net
(Fathom) writes:
>
>In article <694bbo$8...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>bar...@ix.netcom.com(Barb Junkkarinen) wrote:
>
in
>> advance. That is the interpretation others put on what LBJ said to
>> her....hindsight being better than 20/20 and all. There was alot of
>> politicking and posturing going on in Texas at that time and during
>> that trip....any number of possibilities exist as to what LBJ may
have
>> meant by that line.
>
>Can you or anyone come up with a hypothetical explanation for such a
remark--
>that is, assuming it is reported correctly--
>that would be innocent of foreknowledge of the assassination?
There was alot of infighting going on in the Democratic Party down
there just then, LBJ was afraid of being dumped off the ticket,
etc....with all the game playing that goes on in politics, I don't
doubt there could have been any number of plans/schemes cooked up to
insure LBJ's place on the ticket for re-election or some other
political desire....none of which would necessarily involve
assassination. Would seem a pretty careless remark for someone aware
that there would be an assassination the next day, no? But then LBJ was
pretty self assured.
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
>> (Fathom) writes:
>> >
>> >In article <34B592...@flash.net>, Greg Jaynes
<jay...@flash.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Roger Craig made up the story.
>> >
>> >How on earth can you make such an assertion? Did Craig tell you
that?
>> >
>> >I have heard from one researcher that he heard of this from Brown
>> before
>> >it was ever published. Conceivably, Brown could have made it up,
but
>> you'd
>> >better find a motive for her to do so before tossing off your
>> accusations.
>>
>> I agree. :-) The Craig story sounds pretty dubious to me.
>
>If you are so doubtful then why don't you duplicate
>my method and call L.A. Jones for yourself?
>Then if you think it is dubious, you could have
>some standing as opposed to to having an ill
>founded and "dubious" opinion.
Hi Greg,
No need to be testy. :-) My "dubious" opinion is based on Madeleine
Brown. She was the one at the party, the one having the afair with LBJ,
and the one who has told her story about the party. I don't have any
reason to doubt her.
>
>Then, I could tell you about my conversation
>with Peter O'Donnell.
Okay.
>
>
>> Madeleine Brown and I have a good mutual friend in common...and I
have
>> spoken to and corresponded with Madeleine Brown.
>
>I've been to her house a few times.
Good. Then, you no doubtedly know that Madeleine is not the lying kind.
And this is not the sort of thing one would be mistaken about...the
party, that LBJ was there, etc. Why do you doubt her?
>
>> I don't know when the first
>> "party story" was put in print...but I'm sure it was after Madeline
>> first told anyone about it. :-)
>
>Just sort of a gut feeling, huh?
See above. I have no reason to doubt Madeleine. Your only reason seems
to be because others told you it came down a different way ..... you
believe them because of a "gut feeling" or is there some other reason?
Aside from Clint Sr. not living in Dallas, preferably..because that
really is not an issue.
>
>> BTW, Madeleine Brown has never said LBJ knew about the assassination
in
>> advance. That is the interpretation others put on what LBJ said to
>> her....hindsight being better than 20/20 and all. There was alot of
>> politicking and posturing going on in Texas at that time and during
>> that trip....any number of possibilities exist as to what LBJ may
have
>> meant by that line. Unfortunately, there are people who seem to feel
>> the need to "kill the messenger" where Brown is concerned...or at
least
>> trash her.
>>
>> Barb :-)
>
>First of all, I know Madeline and I like her very much.
>But my interest is in the truth. She has told me things
>that I have verified, that turned out to be very
>helpful. But the party story is BS. IMHO
I like Madeleine too....neat lady. But why do you believe the party
story is BS?
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
In <34b812fb...@news.wwa.com> ji...@KILLSPAMwwa.com (Jim Hargrove)
writes:
>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>
>>Hi Jim,
>>
>>Yes, looks like he got it right....Livingstone has heard Madeleine
>>speak of this incident many times. Madeleine denies ever having
spoken
>>to Penn Jones, btw.
>
>Which, of course, suggests independent confirmation.
Hi Jim,
I'm not sure how independent of confirmation it would be...if Madeleine
was the original source on both counts.
>
>>I don't know if she remembers who else may have heard it, but she
does
>>remember some of the Dallas people present at the party....and
perhaps
>>something can be done with that to at least corroborate the party and
>>the partiers.
>
>According to Livingstone writing in 1992 or '93, this remains pretty
>dangerous territory, but do you have her list of people present, and,
if so,
>could you just, uh... er... uh... just post it here? I've provided
some
>space below for the list, and I'd be more than happy to send more if
you
>need it. <g>
Uh, uh....I'm just a patsy.<g> I don't know that she has made any list,
but she does remember the names of some people who were there....I
don't know who they are and can't really say what Madeleine or any
researcher intends to do about it. Sorry. :-)
She does have a clear recollection of the column that appeared in the
paper, and the society editor, at first, seems to have remembered it as
well. The paper put out more than one edition, but the library only
kept one edition each day on microfilm from what Connie Kritzberg has
told me. If anybody has copies of the Dallas Times Herald from the
right date.....maybe we could come up with the edition that carried the
story, eh?
[.....]
>No one needs to live forever! <g>
Very cute.<g>
Barb :-)
Martin Shackelford
Barb:
Penn Jones first published the "party" story in 1969 in the
Midlothian Mirror, and at the end of that year, it was included in
Forgive My Grief III.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Greg:
Nixon isn't on the list presented in Dallas Did It? Penn Jones
reported in 1969 that Nixon was there, though.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Jim:
The Dallas Times Herald folded a few years ago.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Howard:
Yes, Madeleine's autobiography has been published. You can get it
through the JFK book dealers, Last Hurrah, Lancer, etc.
Martin
Greg Jaynes
This was how I came to investigate the party
story. Jim Marrs told me that Penn Jones told
him that Peter O'Donnel drove Nixon to the party.
But for whatever reason Jones refused to disclose
his source.
Harry Livingstone sat in O'Donnels office all
afternoon and finally left without speaking to him
because O'Donnel was giving him the chump treatment.
In case you are not familar with exactly who O'Donnel
is:
At the time of the JFK murder he was the Dallas County
Republican Party Chairman.
He went on to become the State of Texas Republican
Party chairman.
He was the guiding force behind the political careers of
George Bush who was really just an outsider who moved to
Texas but had important east coast connections. Under the
guidance of O'Donnel , Bush ran for Congress a couple of
times but could not get elected dog catcher. Bush finally
made his way to the Presidency relying on his own
connections, ie getting appointed director of CIA then
ultimately riding in on Reagan's coat tails.
O'Donnel also was very effective in promoting the career
of John Tower. O'Donnel practically built the Texas
Republican party as we know it and Tower was his star.
Tower was elected to the Senate and became Chairman of
the Senate Armed Services Committee. Tower went on to
become chairman of the Tower Commission investigating
the Iran - Contra affair of the Reagan Administration.
The Tower Commission investigation marked the first time
in history that the National Security Council was
investigated by an outside agency.
There are many other Texas State Republicans that you
probably never heard of that were guided by O'Donnel.
He was and is a classic behind the scene kingmaker.
I finally got in touch with O'Donnel and talked to
him as if my interest was in the history of the Republican
Party in Texas. It was he who mentioned the JFK murder and
the effect it had in wiping out many of the gains the
Republicans had made to that point.
Ultimately, I did not ask him about the so called party
because I did not want him to clam up until I could speak
with him more. I told Gary Mack about the progress I had
made in just getting to speak to O'Donnel. Then Gary called
O'Donnel's office and asked to speak with him but he would
not talk. Gary asked O'Donnel's secretary if she could get
O'Donnel to comment on the possibility of the party.
When Gary called back for a response the secretary relayed
to Gary that " Mr. O'Donnel did not recall meeting with
Vice President Nixon at that time."
I know it sounds pretty much like a weak denial. And I
really don't believe that Nixon would be in town and not
meet with O'Donnel. But that is where the O'Donnel
angle is at this time.
Finally, I had enough of all this sneaking around.
I wanted to know what Penn Jones source was and if Jones
was really interested in the truth, why he would not
disclose his source to Jim Marrs. But of course Penn Jones
was too sick to speak with anyone. This is what led me to
ask the people who run the Midlothian Mirror newspaper
how to get in touch with Jones ex wife L.A. Jones.
She knew all about the party story and told me that
Roger Craig had told it to her and Penn Jones.
She said Craig was working as a stocker in a grocery
store and that one of the other stockers told Craig
that his mother had attended a party at Clint Murchisons
home and Hoover, Nixon, H.L. Hunt, LBJ and Peter O'Donnel
were in attendance.
It did not occur to me at the time to ask her when Craig
came up with this story maybe she could set the record
straight on who was the first to talk about this party.
BTW, Martin, Madeline told me personally that Nixon was
at the party. Are you saying now that she is omitting him
from the group?
Greg Jaynes
Greg Jaynes
The Dallas Times Herald was purchased by A.H. Belo corporation.
A.H. Belo also owns the Dallas Morning News. Belo closed the
Times Herald and now the Morning News is the only Dallas daily
paper.
tomnln
Martin Shackelford wrote in message <34B8827E...@concentric.net>...
>Jim:
>
> The Dallas Times Herald folded a few years ago.
>
>Martin
>
The Dallas Times Herald did NOT "FOLD".
It was bought out by The Dallas Morning News.
jerrymac
Greg Jaynes wrote in message <34B8E9...@flash.net>...
Greg,
Noel Twyman (Bloody Treason pg. 850) has published an interview he had with
Madeline Brown on 11/24/96. She confirmed that Nixon was at the party in
that interview.
jerrymac
jack white
IT IS NOT NECESSARY THAT A STORY HAVE ONLY ONE SOURCE.
IF 20 PERSONS SAW NIXON AT THE PARTY, EACH OF THEM MIGHT
HAVE TOLD FRIENDS, WHO REPEATED IT, ETC. THUS SEVERAL
PERSONS COULD BE THE **SOURCE** OF THE SAME STORY.
JUST USE A LITTLE LOGIC, PLEASE.
JACK
Barb Junkkarinen
In <34B989...@flash.net> jack white <jw...@flash.net> writes:
>
>IT IS NOT NECESSARY THAT A STORY HAVE ONLY ONE SOURCE.
>IF 20 PERSONS SAW NIXON AT THE PARTY, EACH OF THEM MIGHT
>HAVE TOLD FRIENDS, WHO REPEATED IT, ETC. THUS SEVERAL
>PERSONS COULD BE THE **SOURCE** OF THE SAME STORY.
>JUST USE A LITTLE LOGIC, PLEASE.
>
>JACK
Exactly, Jack. And there is no doubt Nixon was in Dallas that
week...attending the Pepsico convention.
Barb :-)
Jim Hargrove
>I'm not sure how independent of confirmation it would be...if Madeleine
>was the original source on both counts.
But, then, where did Penn Jones get the information (Livingstone writes that
it is in _Forgive My Grief_ v. 3, which I don't have)?
>Uh, uh....I'm just a patsy.<g> I don't know that she has made any list,
>but she does remember the names of some people who were there....I
That's the list I was hoping to get. <g>
>don't know who they are and can't really say what Madeleine or any
>researcher intends to do about it. Sorry. :-)
I'm sorry also. Dr. McAdams is asking for confirmation that the party
itself ever happened, and it looks to me like we have no one but Ms. Brown
willing to remember it. As Pearl Gladstone and Jack White have pointed out,
all the named principals were in or near Dallas that night (that's pretty
strange in its own right), but we're not going to get anywhere on just Ms.
Brown's statements. They need to be corroborated by someone, anyone for
starters.
In 35 years, hasn't she asked any of her friends and acquaintances about it?
Are none of them still alive and willing to speak out?
(My sincere apologies for the pointed questions, but you were the one who
responded with some recent info. This is the thanks you get. <g>)
Barb Junkkarinen
In <34bea244...@news.wwa.com> ji...@KILLSPAMwwa.com (Jim Hargrove)
writes:
>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>>In <34b812fb...@news.wwa.com> ji...@KILLSPAMwwa.com (Jim
Hargrove)
>>writes:
>
>>I'm not sure how independent of confirmation it would be...if
Madeleine
>>was the original source on both counts.
>
>But, then, where did Penn Jones get the information (Livingstone
writes that
>it is in _Forgive My Grief_ v. 3, which I don't have)?
Hi Jim,
I don't have that too. Does stand to reason that there would be other
sources for there having been a party...and who the attendees were. No
quibble from this girl.
>
>>Uh, uh....I'm just a patsy.<g> I don't know that she has made any
list,
>>but she does remember the names of some people who were there....I
>
>That's the list I was hoping to get. <g>
I know.<g>
>
>>don't know who they are and can't really say what Madeleine or any
>>researcher intends to do about it. Sorry. :-)
>
>I'm sorry also. Dr. McAdams is asking for confirmation that the party
>itself ever happened, and it looks to me like we have no one but Ms.
Brown
>willing to remember it. As Pearl Gladstone and Jack White have
pointed out,
>all the named principals were in or near Dallas that night (that's
pretty
>strange in its own right), but we're not going to get anywhere on just
Ms.
>Brown's statements. They need to be corroborated by someone, anyone
for
>starters.
>In 35 years, hasn't she asked any of her friends and acquaintances
about it?
>Are none of them still alive and willing to speak out?
I agree. And if she has...I don't know about it, and if she hasn't...I
don't know why. See what a big help I am?<g> But, tell ya what...I will
find out and get back to you on it, okay? And I'll ask if she'd like to
toss any names out.
Hoover was supposed to be there too...in fact wasn't it supposed to
have been a birthday party of sorts for him? Is there documentation
that Hoover was in town...and does anybody know when his birthday was?
>
>
>(My sincere apologies for the pointed questions, but you were the one
who
>responded with some recent info. This is the thanks you get. <g>)
No prob.<g> *I* wasn't at the party...so I don't have to worry about
her naming me. I was home doing my homework that night...I swear.<g>
Barb :-)
Martin Shackelford
Greg:
I'm only saying that Nixon wasn't on the list in "Dallas Did It!"
Martin
Barb Junkkarinen
In <34B88134...@concentric.net> Martin Shackelford
And does he believe it? This would have been before Madeleine went
public...but not necessarily before she told any friends about the
party.
Thanks,
Barb :-)
Martin Shackelford
Barb:
There is no attribution to the story in Forgive My Grief, but Greg
Jaynes reports that Jones' ex-wife identified the source as Roger Craig.
Martin
Barb Junkkarinen
In <34BB2C3D...@concentric.net> Martin Shackelford
Thanks, Martin. I saw Greg's post...was hoping that perhaps the issue
was footnoted in his work. Oh well.
Barb :-)
Daeron
According to Livingstone ('Killing the Truth', p. 484):
"She (Madeleine Brown) verified Jones's published report that Richard
Nixon, who was in Dallas that day, was at the party, driven there by
Peter O'Donnell."
He goes on to note in conjunction with *why* the party was held (ibid.):
"Some typify the party as a coming together of the financial interests
of the eastern Establishment and those of the Texas oilmen. Kennedy's
threat to remove the oil depletion allowan that made them all rich was
the straw that broke the camel's back, though there was much else he was
doing that they didn't like."
"George Healy told me 'They believed Kennedy was going to flood the
country with cheap money, and they were not going to get any more money
for their oil, except for what might go up as a result of inflation.
Inflation always catches up with oil and gas products later. They
considered the flushing of money through the Federal Reserve an act of
treason."
Lest anyone think for a second this is arrant or baseless speculation,
please consult Donald Gibson's superb monograph: 'Battling Wall Street -
The Kennedy Presidency' , Sheridan Square Press, 1994, p. 106:
"In the early 1970s, banking and oil interests, interwoven at the core
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of the U.S. establishment's economic power, rocked the U.S. economy
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
with stunning increases in the cost of energy and money, probably the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
two most important items in a modern economy."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
--
"We can have democracy or we can have great wealth concentrated
in the hands of a few. We cannot have both."
- Justice Louis Brandeis.
Martin Shackelford
Barb:
Penn didn't use footnotes in his Mirror articles, reprints of which
were what constituted the volumes of Forgive My Grief. Some VERY
interesting material in those volumes, though. I wish someone would put
out a one-volume edition, but not condensed as the Whitewash compilation
was.
Martin
Barb Junkkarinen
In <34BC5DC5...@concentric.net> Martin Shackelford
his volumes. Forgive *my* grief.<g>
Barb :-)
dli...@earthlink.net
Reading this thread on the party is a somewhat depressing experience.
Obviously, a lot of people would like to believe such a gathering
occured, and maybe it did. But. . .
I do not understand how it is possible for a party like this to have
occurred without it being mentioned, *at the time*, in either the Dallas
Morning News or the Dallas Times Herald. Is the implication that all
these important people were gathered in one room, and no journalist knew
about it?
Moreover, it seems (to me, anyway) there wouldn't be any reason NOT to
publish the fact that there was such a party since (as far as I
understand) it was not overtly conspiratorial. So---assuming it
occurred---it would appear to be "just one of those coincidences". So
the news story might read: "Ironically, just the night before, so and so
was in town, and. . " etc.
So how come there is no contemporaneous news coverage? In a town whose
newspapers were publishing all sorts of tidbits about everything, not a
single reporter knew about this?
For J. Edgar Hoover to be in Dallas on that evening, and at a
social event; would be news. Big news. Especially once the assassination
had occurred.
And not a single mention?
Does anyone who believes that this party occurred have any explanation
for the lack of contemporaneous news report either of the party itself,
or of Hoover's presence in Dallas? (And another matter: where did Hoover
stay? Did he wake up Friday morning, November 22, in Dallas, and then fly
back to Washington? If so, aboard what aircraft? And from what airport?
If not, is he supposed to have flown back to Washington on Thursday
night, November 21?)
Comments, anayone?
David Lifton
BELOW---snipped out.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Jim Hargrove
>>But, then, where did Penn Jones get the information (Livingstone
>writes that
>>it is in _Forgive My Grief_ v. 3, which I don't have)?
>
>Hi Jim,
>
>I don't have that too. Does stand to reason that there would be other
>sources for there having been a party...and who the attendees were. No
>quibble from this girl.
I looked at the "Murchison Party" section in _Killing the Truth_ again...
someone posted part of it also. Livingstone writes: "I have verified that
at least the following were at the party: J. Edgar Hoover...."
But he only names Penn Jones, Ms. Brown, and society columnist Val Imm, "and
she had no memory of being there," according to Livingstone. With the
wonders of the Infobahn and all, we're getting nowhere really, really fast!
>>>Uh, uh....I'm just a patsy.<g> I don't know that she has made any
>list,
>>>but she does remember the names of some people who were there....I
>>
>>That's the list I was hoping to get. <g>
>
>I know.<g>
Cute.
[....]
>>In 35 years, hasn't she asked any of her friends and acquaintances
>about it?
>>Are none of them still alive and willing to speak out?
>
>I agree. And if she has...I don't know about it, and if she hasn't...I
>don't know why. See what a big help I am?<g> But, tell ya what...I will
>find out and get back to you on it, okay? And I'll ask if she'd like to
>toss any names out.
Great! I hope you and she agree that this confirmation business is just par
for the course on these contentious fairways. Lack of independent
recollections supporting her case does not necessarily mean Ms. Brown was
hallucinating.
>Hoover was supposed to be there too...in fact wasn't it supposed to
>have been a birthday party of sorts for him? Is there documentation
>that Hoover was in town...and does anybody know when his birthday was?
I never heard it was supposed to be a birthday party for Hoover.
According to Compton's Encyclopedia, he was born New Year's Day, 1795.
(Just kidding--actually Jan. 1, 1895, which is ancient enough without the
hyperbole.)
There are plenty of references in the WC docs indicating he was in
Washington the next day--don't know about the night in question, though.
That info sounds like it might be possible to dig up--unless he had the
foresight to bury it at the time. Hmmmm.
>>(My sincere apologies for the pointed questions, but you were the one
>who
>>responded with some recent info. This is the thanks you get. <g>)
>
>No prob.<g> *I* wasn't at the party...so I don't have to worry about
>her naming me. I was home doing my homework that night...I swear.<g>
Will anyone help you prove that? <g>
I was in New York.
Jim Hargrove
dli...@earthlink.net wrote:
>Reading this thread on the party is a somewhat depressing experience.
>Obviously, a lot of people would like to believe such a gathering
>occured, and maybe it did. But. . .
Why does this depress you? I made the original post, summarized the
Livingstone/Brown anecdote, and asked if anyone was aware of independent
support for the allegation. On that score, we're getting nowhere fast, and
this may well turn out to be another dead end, but you of all people should
be sympathetic to the notion that things are not always what they seem to
be.
The questions you pose below are logical and well taken, and I don't have
satisfying answers for them, but this area seems as legitimate a realm of
inquiry as, say, counting Zapruder frames for the 10,000th time.
Nothing new below.
Barb Junkkarinen
In <34bd135...@news.wwa.com> ji...@KILLSPAMwwa.com (Jim Hargrove)
writes:
>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>>In <34bea244...@news.wwa.com> ji...@KILLSPAMwwa.com (Jim
Hargrove)
>>writes:
>
>>>But, then, where did Penn Jones get the information (Livingstone
>>writes that
>>>it is in _Forgive My Grief_ v. 3, which I don't have)?
>>
>>Hi Jim,
>>
>>I don't have that too. Does stand to reason that there would be other
>>sources for there having been a party...and who the attendees were.
No
>>quibble from this girl.
>
>I looked at the "Murchison Party" section in _Killing the Truth_
again...
>someone posted part of it also. Livingstone writes: "I have verified
that
>at least the following were at the party: J. Edgar Hoover...."
>
>But he only names Penn Jones, Ms. Brown, and society columnist Val
Imm, "and
>she had no memory of being there," according to Livingstone. With the
>wonders of the Infobahn and all, we're getting nowhere really, really
fast!
Indeed. Doesn't sound like any verification to me. Sigh.
>
>>>>Uh, uh....I'm just a patsy.<g> I don't know that she has made any
>>list,
>>>>but she does remember the names of some people who were there....I
>>>
>>>That's the list I was hoping to get. <g>
>>
>>I know.<g>
>
>Cute.
Thank you. :-)
>
>[....]
>
>>>In 35 years, hasn't she asked any of her friends and acquaintances
>>about it?
>>>Are none of them still alive and willing to speak out?
>>
>>I agree. And if she has...I don't know about it, and if she
hasn't...I
>>don't know why. See what a big help I am?<g> But, tell ya what...I
will
>>find out and get back to you on it, okay? And I'll ask if she'd like
to
>>toss any names out.
>
>Great! I hope you and she agree that this confirmation business is
just par
>for the course on these contentious fairways. Lack of independent
>recollections supporting her case does not necessarily mean Ms. Brown
was
>hallucinating.
Absolutely. I don't doubt that a party occurred...Madeleine does not
seem the type to make something up out of whole cloth...she could be
mistaken about timing or attendees or whatever, though I have no reason
to assume that. But, these were very big names...important people, and
while there was a bigger fish in the area taking up news space, there
should be a way to confirm or debunk whether or not certain people were
even in town...and if they were, possibly their whereabouts that night
if they were at some other function.
>
>>Hoover was supposed to be there too...in fact wasn't it supposed to
>>have been a birthday party of sorts for him? Is there documentation
>>that Hoover was in town...and does anybody know when his birthday
was?
>
>I never heard it was supposed to be a birthday party for Hoover.
Gee, maybe I created a factoid.<g> I hope not...thought that's what I'd
heard at one time or another. That would seem to have called for some
splashy news though, wouldn't it?
One thing to consider is that this party was said to have taken place
on the night of the 21st....the assassination got virtually all the
coverage after 1230 the next day. Perhaps not odd if no article can be
found about this on the 22nd.....but maybe later, even a couple of
weeks when retrospective interest piece kind of things might have been
being put out. Eh?
Okay, who wants to go read two weeks worth of every edition available
on microfilm of all the Dallas papers? :-)
>
>According to Compton's Encyclopedia, he was born New Year's Day, 1795.
>(Just kidding--actually Jan. 1, 1895, which is ancient enough without
the
>hyperbole.)
>
>There are plenty of references in the WC docs indicating he was in
>Washington the next day--don't know about the night in question,
though.
>That info sounds like it might be possible to dig up--unless he had
the
>foresight to bury it at the time. Hmmmm.
>
>>>(My sincere apologies for the pointed questions, but you were the
one
>>who
>>>responded with some recent info. This is the thanks you get. <g>)
>>
>>No prob.<g> *I* wasn't at the party...so I don't have to worry about
>>her naming me. I was home doing my homework that night...I swear.<g>
>
>Will anyone help you prove that? <g>
Hmmmm. I think all my official witnesses are probably long gone...or
senile. But they were nuns if that counts for anything.<BG>
>
>I was in New York.
Oh sure. :-)
Barb :-)
jack white
FOLKS...I THINK THE WORD **PARTY** IS BEING MISAPPLIED AS IF THIS WERE
SOME BIG SOCIAL EVENT, WITH INVITATIONS, PRESS COVERAGE, ETC. I THINK
IT WAS MORE OF A GATHERING OF PEOPLE WHO WERE ASKED TO DROP BY FOR DRINKS,
NOT A FORMAL PARTY. A LOT OF THE ATTENDEES WERE THERE FOR THE BOTTLERS
CONVENTION. AS I RECALL, JOAN CRAWFORD AND NIXON WERE AMONG THEM.
DON*T YOU IMAGINE, IF CONSPIRATORIAL PLANS WERE AFOOT, THAT IN FACT
THE GATHERING WOULD HAVE BEEN KEPT VERY LOW PROFILE? WHY WOULD THE
CONSPIRATORS INVITE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD BLAB? BUT OF COURSE,
APPARENTLY MADELEINE AND SOME OTHERS DID.
HOOVER WAS A CLOSE PERSONAL FRIEND OF MURCHISON. MURCHISON HAD PRIVATE
JET PLANES AT HIS DISPOSAL. HOOVER COULD PROBABLY BE IN WASHINGTON,
IN DALLAS, AND BACK TO WASHINGTON ALL WITHIN THE SAME DAY. LBJ WAS IN
FORT WORTH THAT NIGHT, ONLY 30 MINUTES AWAY BY CAR.
AND THE NEXT DAY A BIG NEWS EVENT KNOCKED ALL OTHER STORIES OUT OF PRINT!
I BELIEVE MADELEINE. OTHERS CAN BELIEVE WHAT FITS THEIR AGENDA.
JACK
PS. ALONG THESE LINES, ABOUT A WEEK BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION, THE FORT
WORTH PRESS RAN A PHOTO ON THE FRONT PAGE OF LBJ HOSTING AN INTERESTING
VISITOR AT THE LBJ RANCH. IT WAS ALLEN DULLES. HMMMMMMM?
Daeron
jack white wrote:
> DON*T YOU IMAGINE, IF CONSPIRATORIAL PLANS WERE AFOOT, THAT IN FACT
> THE GATHERING WOULD HAVE BEEN KEPT VERY LOW PROFILE? WHY WOULD THE
> CONSPIRATORS INVITE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD BLAB?
Exactly so. If indeed, this was a 'Command Control' event, as
Livingstone maintains, then why on earth bruit it about - or publicize
it in *any* way? That would make no sense at all. If anything, I would
be highly suspicious if I saw say, any number of books coming out with
'information' about this party.
I am - rather, more inclined to believe it, given the above, with a few
*consistent* voices (among whom were actually there) like Ms. Brown.
What we must bear in mind, is that there will be many facets of this
case - such as the Murchison event, which are not confirmed as we would
like them to be. But that does not make it any less plausible or likely
that they occurred.
If anything, the 'powers behind that event' would do everything
possible to destroy or eliminate any other evidence - or testimony, that
might support Ms. Brown's. This plays into their overarching purpose
throughout: 'entice a situation of condition in which anything can be
believed and nothing known'.
Once more, we return to what I call a condition of epistemological
complementarity.
> I BELIEVE MADELEINE. OTHERS CAN BELIEVE WHAT FITS THEIR AGENDA.
Exactly. It makes sense - she is consistent, all the 'pieces' fit, all
the 'players' fit. All that is left is to connect the dots -as we must
do in many other areas, until all the information is forthcoming via
file release, or 'deathbed' confessions of perps.
> PS. ALONG THESE LINES, ABOUT A WEEK BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION, THE FORT
> WORTH PRESS RAN A PHOTO ON THE FRONT PAGE OF LBJ HOSTING AN INTERESTING
> VISITOR AT THE LBJ RANCH. IT WAS ALLEN DULLES. HMMMMMMM?
>
Hmmmmmm, is right. Why oh why am I not the least bit surprised? Anyway,
thanks for this info.
Jim Hargrove
jack white wrote:
>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>> Indeed. Doesn't sound like any verification to me. Sigh.
Well, according to a post by Martin Shackelford a few days ago,
"Val Imm [Times Herald] wrote a column about the party on the women's page,
but it didn't appear in all editions. In later years, she intially confirmed
her attendance at the party. Then she married Parkland doctor Fauod
Bashour, and began denying she had attended it."
Therefore, it might be possible for a Dallas researcher merely to look at
the women's page of a few editions of the _Times Herald_, though microfiche
records might not reproduce the necessary edition.
Martin also wrote, "Contacted by researcher Larry Howard, Jeanne Barnes
confirmed her attendance at the gathering." Sounds like a pretty good stab
at independent confirmation--at least of the party--to me.
>FOLKS...I THINK THE WORD **PARTY** IS BEING MISAPPLIED AS IF THIS WERE
>SOME BIG SOCIAL EVENT, WITH INVITATIONS, PRESS COVERAGE, ETC. I THINK
>IT WAS MORE OF A GATHERING OF PEOPLE WHO WERE ASKED TO DROP BY FOR DRINKS,
>NOT A FORMAL PARTY. A LOT OF THE ATTENDEES WERE THERE FOR THE BOTTLERS
>CONVENTION. AS I RECALL, JOAN CRAWFORD AND NIXON WERE AMONG THEM.
>
>DON*T YOU IMAGINE, IF CONSPIRATORIAL PLANS WERE AFOOT, THAT IN FACT
>THE GATHERING WOULD HAVE BEEN KEPT VERY LOW PROFILE? WHY WOULD THE
>CONSPIRATORS INVITE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD BLAB? BUT OF COURSE,
>APPARENTLY MADELEINE AND SOME OTHERS DID.
According to the reports I've read, there was a "closed door" session during
the party. LBJ was the one who broke the code and blabbed, if these reports
are accurate.
>HOOVER WAS A CLOSE PERSONAL FRIEND OF MURCHISON. MURCHISON HAD PRIVATE
>JET PLANES AT HIS DISPOSAL. HOOVER COULD PROBABLY BE IN WASHINGTON,
>IN DALLAS, AND BACK TO WASHINGTON ALL WITHIN THE SAME DAY. LBJ WAS IN
>FORT WORTH THAT NIGHT, ONLY 30 MINUTES AWAY BY CAR.
Thanks for that info.
>AND THE NEXT DAY A BIG NEWS EVENT KNOCKED ALL OTHER STORIES OUT OF PRINT!
Even before the assassination, a Presidential visit was big, big news.
>I BELIEVE MADELEINE. OTHERS CAN BELIEVE WHAT FITS THEIR AGENDA.
I'm trying hard not to have an agenda here, though it sure is difficult when
we've all been lied to for so long in this case.
>
>PS. ALONG THESE LINES, ABOUT A WEEK BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION, THE FORT
>WORTH PRESS RAN A PHOTO ON THE FRONT PAGE OF LBJ HOSTING AN INTERESTING
>VISITOR AT THE LBJ RANCH. IT WAS ALLEN DULLES. HMMMMMMM?
That is weird. At the time, Dulles had no official position in the
government, correct? He soon would have, though, on the WC.
>> >I never heard it was supposed to be a birthday party for Hoover.
>> Gee, maybe I created a factoid.<g> I hope not...thought that's what I'd
>> heard at one time or another. That would seem to have called for some
>> splashy news though, wouldn't it?
Yeah, but let's forget about this one--especially since Jan. 1 was Hoover's
birthday.
>> One thing to consider is that this party was said to have taken place
>> on the night of the 21st....the assassination got virtually all the
>> coverage after 1230 the next day. Perhaps not odd if no article can be
>> found about this on the 22nd.....but maybe later, even a couple of
>> weeks when retrospective interest piece kind of things might have been
>> being put out. Eh?
>>
>> Okay, who wants to go read two weeks worth of every edition available
>> on microfilm of all the Dallas papers? :-)
Just check the women's page of the _Times Herald_ for a few weeks--and try
to get different microfilm productions, since the story apparently appeared
in only some editions.
>> Hmmmm. I think all my official witnesses are probably long gone...or
>> senile. But they were nuns if that counts for anything.<BG>
Sure, if they had truthful habits!
>> >I was in New York.
>>
>> Oh sure. :-)
My lone witness was my gym teacher, who called me over and said, "They shot
Kennedy." Obviously, I wan't thinking at the time. If only I had said,
"Who? Who are **they?**"
But no. . . . .
Mike Sheppard
> Reading this thread on the party is a somewhat depressing experience.
> Obviously, a lot of people would like to believe such a gathering
> occured, and maybe it did. But. . .
>
> BELOW---snipped out.
Yeah.
That does seem funny. Here's a list from my archive of the guests at the
party.
Alleged Attendees:
J. Edgar Hoover
Lyndon Johnson
H.L. Hunt
John Curington
George Brown (of Brown & Root)
Bruce Alger (Republican Congressman from TX)
John J. McCloy
Richard M. Nixon (driven by Peter O道onnell)
Madelein Brown (LBJ Mistress)
Clint Murchison
Val Imm (society writer for Dallas Newspaper) Imm denies her attendance
I would think that with all this power in Dallas SOME of these people
would gather at one location. I'm not as convinced of the attendence at
the Murchison's of this whole list.
Needless to say, this isn't a full guest list, just the important people.
It would seem there would be conventional ways to track down the
whereabouts of some of these people as David suggests.
Barb Junkkarinen
In <34bd484...@news.wwa.com> ji...@KILLSPAMwwa.com (Jim Hargrove)
writes:
>jack white wrote:
>>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>
>
>"Val Imm [Times Herald] wrote a column about the party on the women's
page,
>but it didn't appear in all editions. In later years, she intially
confirmed
>her attendance at the party. Then she married Parkland doctor Fauod
>Bashour, and began denying she had attended it."
>
>Therefore, it might be possible for a Dallas researcher merely to look
at
>the women's page of a few editions of the _Times Herald_, though
microfiche
>records might not reproduce the necessary edition.
Hi Jim,
I posted this info too...how soon they forget.<g> I quoted it from
Daddas Did It and also got a statement from Connie Kritzberg. I thought
it was clear that I am a Madeleine believer. :-) My statement above had
to do with Livingstone's documentation/verification (or was it
Jones?...either way) not really being documentation or verification at
all.
As for the newspaper column...Val Imm initially told MB she'd get it
for her when she came home from vacation, then came back and said she
didn't remember being at any such event at all, according to Mdaeline
Brown, and when Connie Kritzberg talked to Val Imm, Imm said she didn't
even remember Brown, then Connie reminded her that it was Madeliene who
used to hire her to do voice overs and then Imm said she remembered
Madeleine but not the party. I don't even wanna reread that sentence
because I'm certain it sucks but hopefully you got the drift.<BG>
Madeleine went to the library to see if she could find the column in
the paper....but was told that only one edition was kept on
microfilm....and it wasn't the right one. Sigh. Anyway, if anybody has
papers saved from the 22nd....early editions, maybe we could get lucky.
Or, as I posited in another post, editions even weeks later might be
retrospectively referring to some such thing.
>
>Martin also wrote, "Contacted by researcher Larry Howard, Jeanne
Barnes
>confirmed her attendance at the gathering." Sounds like a pretty good
stab
>at independent confirmation--at least of the party--to me.
I must have missed that one....who is/was Jeanne Barnes? I'll run that
name by Connie and Madeleine.
>
>>FOLKS...I THINK THE WORD **PARTY** IS BEING MISAPPLIED AS IF THIS
WERE
>>SOME BIG SOCIAL EVENT, WITH INVITATIONS, PRESS COVERAGE, ETC. I
THINK
>>IT WAS MORE OF A GATHERING OF PEOPLE WHO WERE ASKED TO DROP BY FOR
DRINKS,
>>NOT A FORMAL PARTY. A LOT OF THE ATTENDEES WERE THERE FOR THE
BOTTLERS
>>CONVENTION. AS I RECALL, JOAN CRAWFORD AND NIXON WERE AMONG THEM.
>>
>>DON*T YOU IMAGINE, IF CONSPIRATORIAL PLANS WERE AFOOT, THAT IN FACT
>>THE GATHERING WOULD HAVE BEEN KEPT VERY LOW PROFILE? WHY WOULD THE
>>CONSPIRATORS INVITE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD BLAB? BUT OF COURSE,
>>APPARENTLY MADELEINE AND SOME OTHERS DID.
>
>According to the reports I've read, there was a "closed door" session
during
>the party. LBJ was the one who broke the code and blabbed, if these
reports
>are accurate.
Exactly. Madeline was surprised to see LBJ arrive...she was not
expecting him at all. And as soon as he came in, the "boys" disappeared
behind closed doors for awhile.
[....]
>Just check the women's page of the _Times Herald_ for a few weeks--and
try
>to get different microfilm productions, since the story apparently
appeared
>in only some editions.
We need a Dallas volunteer. Anybody? :-)
>
>>> Hmmmm. I think all my official witnesses are probably long
gone...or
>>> senile. But they were nuns if that counts for anything.<BG>
>
>Sure, if they had truthful habits!
HA!<g> Well, they had BIG ones....worked for us kids...we didn't wanna
tangle with 'em.<g>
>
>>> >I was in New York.
>>>
>>> Oh sure. :-)
>
>My lone witness was my gym teacher, who called me over and said, "They
shot
>Kennedy." Obviously, I wan't thinking at the time. If only I had
said,
>"Who? Who are **they?**"
>
>But no. . . . .
Obviously, you had the conspiracy cornered right there in the gym and
blew it. So. This is all *your* fault.<BG>
Barb :-)
Martin Shackelford
David:
What do you mean no journalists knew about it?
If you've read the thread, you know that Val Imm and Jeanne
Barnes attended the party, and Val Imm wrote about it. At various times,
both later confirmed the event.
Journalist Penn Jones also learned about the party from another
source.
That's not "no journalists," that's three of them.
Journalist Connie Kritzberg also learned details of the party.
Martin
dli...@earthlink.net
TO ALL:
The reason I said reading this thread was "somewhat depressing" is
because it is an excellent example of a lot of people wanting to believe
something which, if it actually occurred, would have generated a
contemporaneous record. That record does not exist. So skepticism should
be rampant. Instead, there seems to be a will to believe. I think the
word "depressing" came to mind because I personally went through this
entire record, so I know how many reporters were covering this thing, and
the minutiae (sp?) they wrote about.
Here's what my scanning activities consisted of:
Back in 1967, shortly after I made the initial discoveries concerning
surgery on the body, I methodically organized a "media" project---that
is, collecting a reading every single newspaper on microfilm (or, in some
cases, on paper) from anywhere in the country whose coverage was
pertinent to any parts of my overall thesis. I made extensive use of
Interlibrary Loan, and the project went on for years---a bit at a time.
Early on, I located a 10 reel collection of microfilm which had the
assassination coverage of every single paper in the United States, for
that four day period; and in addition I ordered, read, kept notebooks on,
and printed out articles from, each of the 10 Texas newspapers (2 from
each of the 5 cities on the JFK itinerary), not only for November 1963,
but for October 63 (and sometimes before) and December 63.
In many cases (as in the case of the Dallas Times Herald and the Dallas
Morning News) I actually purchased my own copy of the microfilm for
November.
Having read all of these papers---every single one of them---and scanning
for various categories of information (an interview with a Dallas doctor,
anything having to do with trip planning, anything having to do with a
casket team member etc.) I can report that there is no article whatsoever
about this party during that time frame.
Moreover, not only did I examine the print media, I went through all the
hours of Dallas radio station broadcast tapes at the National Archives.
Again, nothing; and one of my categories was "Comings and
Goings"---which, for example, turned up the fact that former CIA director
Dulles had been in Dallas (as I recall) in October 1963. Another example:
I found the DRE story cited by the LaFontaines, back in 1967.
It seems to me that if Hoover had been in Dallas or any kind of social
function such as this occurred, there would be some record. It would be
known. It would be talked about. (And McCloy was supposed to be in Dallas
the night before, and he ends up on the Warren Commission, and that
doesn't get mentioned? Oh, c'mon now.)
It matters not to me that years later someone *says* they attended a
party. Where is the contemporaneous record?
In this regard, I find it particularly amusing that Schakelford, the
compuslive agnostic, is on the bandwagon in this case, toting up the
stories that were generated years later---I stress "years later"---and
calling that "the journalistic evidence"; or subscribing to the notion
that the story was written up that day, but just happened not to make the
microfilmed record. Give me a break. I know that record. I spent hour
upon wearying hour plowing through it, week after week, month after
month, year after year.
I'm sorry. On this one, I'm from Missouri.
David Lifton
[major sni]
From previous post:
> That does seem funny. Here's a list from my archive of the guests at the
> party.
>
> Alleged Attendees:
>
> J. Edgar Hoover
> Lyndon Johnson
> H.L. Hunt
> John Curington
> George Brown (of Brown & Root)
> Bruce Alger (Republican Congressman from TX)
> John J. McCloy
> Richard M. Nixon (driven by Peter O1Donnell)
> Madelein Brown (LBJ Mistress)
> Clint Murchison
> Val Imm (society writer for Dallas Newspaper) Imm denies her attendance
DSL ADDENDUM:
You left out Santa Claus.
dli...@earthlink.net
Martin:
Instead of telling us about the existence of journalists who "wrote about
it" "at various times" and who "later confirmed the event", please do
supply us with a single story, published in the year 1963 (or even 1964)
which mentions this party.
Looking forward to your producing such important and historic evidence.
David Lifton
PS Remember the Zen statement, "What would be the sound of one hand
clapping?" Well, I would suggest that the sound of a lot of people
claiming years later that a sensational gathering like this took place
without any contemporaneous written evidence is a lot of noise and a lot
of wishful thinking without very much validity.
PPS See my other post on this thread reporting on my own scanning of all
newspapers---including 10 Texas newspapers---for this period.
BELOW: Previous Schackelford post snipped.
Bill Michel
Some confirmation is also given by Chuck Giancana in Double Cross:
"Mooney[Giancana]said 'both Richard Nixon and Lyndon Johnson knew about the
whole damned thing,' having met with him in Dallas immediately prior to the
assassination. What exactly was discussed between these men, Mooney didn't
say".
This is not exactly confirmation, but it gives the party story a little more
credence. What I have been looking for, for a while is similar stories and
names of those involved coming from different sources. Chuck Giancana's book
names a lot of the players and shooters, and they closely match
Livingstone's theories that he extracted from Dallas.
What I find interesting is that there has been evidence and theories
regarding the following groups:
Chicago Mob
Teamsters
Military intelligence
CIA
LBJ
Nixon
FBI/Hoover
New Orleans Mob
Texas Oil Money
Anti Castro Cubans
Dallas Police
In reality, elements of all of the above groups had a hand in the
assassination, and Livingstone and Giancana show how they all fit together.
What I like about the above authors is that instead of just presenting
facts, they actually put their theories in writing, and named names. The
theories of Livingstone and Giancana make a lot of sense, and are very
difficult to refute. I, personally, believe that they make a lot of sense,
and are about as close as anyone has gotten to the answer.
Martin Shackelford wrote in message <34BDC4C7...@concentric.net>...
dli...@earthlink.net
TO ALL:
Yes, the Ft. Worth Press does show such a picture---Allen Dulles and
either Ladybird or LBJ (one of them on a horse)---on page one of the Fort
Worth Press of approximately November 14, 1963; and when I first saw it I
thought it was terribly significant, but years later (and I do not
remember when I learned this) I either ascertained or was told that that
picture was taken in the summer of 1960, when Allen Dulles was an
overnight guest at the LBJ ranch in connection with his being the CIA
briefer of the (vice-presidential) candidate.
In other words, it was a picture used to illustrate a story relating that
LBJ and Ladybird entertained at the ranch---and not to show who was
visiting at that time; i.e., that particular week. Sorry I can't be more
specific, but I'm doing this from memory.
David Lifton
BELOW HERE: Excerpt from previous post
In article <34BD49...@ix.netcom.com>,
Daeron <sta...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
PS. ALONG THESE LINES, ABOUT A WEEK BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION, THE FORT
WORTH PRESS RAN A PHOTO ON THE FRONT PAGE OF LBJ HOSTING AN INTERESTING
VISITOR AT THE LBJ RANCH. IT WAS ALLEN DULLES. HMMMMMMM?
> Hmmmmmm, is right. Why oh why am I not the least bit surprised? Anyway,
> thanks for this info.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
jack white
dli...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
> TO ALL:
>
> Yes, the Ft. Worth Press does show such a picture---Allen Dulles and
> either Ladybird or LBJ (one of them on a horse)---on page one of the Fort
> Worth Press of approximately November 14, 1963; and when I first saw it I
> thought it was terribly significant, but years later (and I do not
> remember when I learned this) I either ascertained or was told that that
> picture was taken in the summer of 1960, when Allen Dulles was an
> overnight guest at the LBJ ranch in connection with his being the CIA
> briefer of the (vice-presidential) candidate.
>
> In other words, it was a picture used to illustrate a story relating that
> LBJ and Ladybird entertained at the ranch---and not to show who was
> visiting at that time; i.e., that particular week. Sorry I can't be more
> specific, but I'm doing this from memory.
David...I may have to try to find my copy of this (difficult, since I have about a
dozen boxes of old newspapers and magazines). My memory of it is that the cutline under
the photo is very time-specific...that is, it mentions when the Dulles visit occurred.
I could be wrong, but that is how I remember it. I have the paper somewhere. It might
be easier to go to the library and look up the microfilm.
Jack
>
> David Lifton
>
> BELOW HERE: Excerpt from previous post
>
> In article <34BD49...@ix.netcom.com>,
> Daeron <sta...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> PS. ALONG THESE LINES, ABOUT A WEEK BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION, THE FORT
> WORTH PRESS RAN A PHOTO ON THE FRONT PAGE OF LBJ HOSTING AN INTERESTING
> VISITOR AT THE LBJ RANCH. IT WAS ALLEN DULLES. HMMMMMMM?
>
Fathom
In article <69ng2q$6...@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>, "Bill Michel"
<bmiche...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> What I find interesting is that there has been evidence and theories
> regarding the following groups:
>
> Chicago Mob
> Teamsters
> Military intelligence
> CIA
> LBJ
> Nixon
> FBI/Hoover
> New Orleans Mob
> Texas Oil Money
> Anti Castro Cubans
> Dallas Police
>
> In reality, elements of all of the above groups had a hand in the
> assassination, and Livingstone and Giancana show how they all fit together.
For another arcane but eye-opening discussion of how these groups fit
together, I'm reading P.D. Scott's _Deep Politics adn the Death of JFK_.
He shows a lot of connections that Livingstone and Giancana neglect.
--
To reply by e-mail, please address to fat...@sonic.net
8 8 8 8 8 8 8
These opinions are not my own--I am channeling them from the Higher Realms.
Disagree at your peril.
dli...@earthlink.net
Jack:
There is nothing I would like more than to be able to demonstrate that
former CIA director Allen Dulles was an overnight guest at the LBJ ranch
just a week or so before Dallas; and, taking the Fort Worth Press picture
at face value, that is what I originally believed.
Unfortuantely, so much time has passed that I do not today remember the
details of why I had to abandon this position---but somehow it was
ascertained that the picture was a file photo from the summer of 1960.
Sorry I can't be more specific.
I would be most surprised if a check of the microfilm revealed internal
evidence re-establishing my original belief. If you or anyone should
turn up such evidence, please let me know.
Thank you.
David
BELOW HERE. . . snipped
Michael Beck
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:21:04 -0600, dli...@earthlink.net wrote:
>Jack:
>
>There is nothing I would like more than to be able to demonstrate that
>former CIA director Allen Dulles was an overnight guest at the LBJ ranch
>just a week or so before Dallas; and, taking the Fort Worth Press picture
>at face value, that is what I originally believed.
What does that have to do with JFK's assassination?
>
>Unfortuantely, so much time has passed that I do not today remember the
>details of why I had to abandon this position---but somehow it was
>ascertained that the picture was a file photo from the summer of 1960.
>Sorry I can't be more specific.
>
>I would be most surprised if a check of the microfilm revealed internal
>evidence re-establishing my original belief. If you or anyone should
>turn up such evidence, please let me know.
Perhaps its buried in a microdot within the Moorman photograph??
John McAdams
On 13 Jan 1998 07:56:14 -0600, "Bill Michel"
<bmiche...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Livingstone does in "Killing the Truth", but he is recognizing the anonymity
>of his source.
>
Sure. So we have a "source" of questionable reliability, and another
that Livingstone *says* confirms the tale, but whom he conveniently
can't identify.
And we have reliable sources placing LBJ and Nixon elsewere, and *not*
at this particular party.
>>
>>I've been reading this thread, and I've seen *nothing* in the way of
>>independent confirmation for Brown's story. There was an article in the
>>paper that (conveniently) has entirely disappeared.
>>
>>Does *anybody* have independent confirmation of (1) the party, and (2) the
>>presence of J. Edgar Hoover, Richard Nixon, and LBJ?
>>
>>
jack white
John McAdams wrote:
>
> On 13 Jan 1998 07:56:14 -0600, "Bill Michel"
> <bmiche...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Livingstone does in "Killing the Truth", but he is recognizing the anonymity
> >of his source.
> >
>
> Sure. So we have a "source" of questionable reliability, and another
> that Livingstone *says* confirms the tale, but whom he conveniently
> can't identify.
>
> And we have reliable sources placing LBJ and Nixon elsewere,
I HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH SOURCES. PLEASE CITE YOUR SOURCES.
JW
John McAdams
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:28:33 -0600, jack white <jw...@flash.net>
wrote:
The Dallas papers for Nixon, and Manchester for Johnson.
What soures do you have besides Madeleine Brown?
.John
Martin Shackelford
David:
As you will know from following this thread, I have not seen nor
claimed to have seen any such article. The question was which sources
reported such a party, and I was listing them. That's all.
Martin
Jim Hargrove
John McAdams wrote:
>jack white wrote:
>>> And we have reliable sources placing LBJ and Nixon elsewere,
>>I HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH SOURCES. PLEASE CITE YOUR SOURCES.
>The Dallas papers for Nixon, and Manchester for Johnson.
A word to the wise--
Dr. McAdams has added no new information
with his post above. It has been stated
previously in this thread that Nixon was
in Dallas for a Pepsi convention (Do the
Dallas newspapers say otherwise?) and
Johnson, according to William Manchester
and many others, was at a hotel in
neighboring Fort Worth. Therefore, both
men certainly could have attended a
Dallas party sometime during the evening
of November 21, 1963, unless information
more difinitive than the above is
presented.
However, in a previous post, Dr. McAdams
added his moderated/censored newsgroup,
alt.assassination.jfk, to the newsgroups
distribution list, meaning HE AND HIS
CO-MODERATORS CONTROL WHETHER YOUR REPLY
EVER WILL APPEAR IN **EITHER** NEWSGROUP.
If he so chooses, he can prevent your reply
from disseminating beyond your local net
provider's news server in his newsgroup AND
IN THIS NEWSGROUP AS WELL! This is the way
Network News Transport Protocols (NNTP)
have worked throughout Usenet's history in
regard to posts made simultaneously to both
moderated and unmoderated newsgroups.
Dr. McAdams and his co-moderator/censors
cannot prevent this post from appearing in
alt.conspiracy.jfk, but only because I have
removed alt.assassination.jfk from the
newsgroup list for my post. Most modern,
graphical newsreaders make this task quite
simple. Unix shell users can also do this
easily enough, although they may need to
look at specific newsreader help docs to
learn the procedure.
If you want to be CERTAIN your reply will
appear to everyone in alt.conspiracy.jfk,
reply to my post. If you wish to put Dr.
McAdams in charge of distributing your
reply (or killing it), reply to either of
his two posts above in this thread.
>What soures do you have besides Madeleine Brown?
Ms. Brown's lone description of the Dallas party is one more source than you
have so far presented supporting your position that Johnson and Nixon were
somewhere else the entire evening. If you reply, please list citations and
include direct quotes indicating Johnson or Nixon (or Hoover) were
demonstrably somewhere else the entire evening.
George Lamm, Jr.
Jim...
I'm not quite sure i understand what you are saying... i only read and
post to the alt.conspiracy.jfk NG... i personally have no use for a
moderated NG... are you saying McAdams and the other moderators of the
moderated NG can prevent my posts to the alt.conspiracy.jfk NG???
later... george
Lisa Pease
Barb Junkkarinen (bar...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <34B88134...@concentric.net> Martin Shackelford
: <msh...@concentric.net> writes:
: >
: >Barb:
: >
: > Penn Jones first published the "party" story in 1969 in the
: >Midlothian Mirror, and at the end of that year, it was included in
: >Forgive My Grief III.
: >
: >Martin
: >
: Thanks for the info, Martin. And who does Jones attribute the story to?
He doesn't. Jim and I tracked this down a while back. He sources it to
someone whose name he specifically refuses to mention. For this reasons,
among others, I have never found this story credible.
--
Lisa Pease
"It is as if the final price for winning the Cold War is our confinement
to a permanent childhood where reassuring fantasies and endless
diversions protect us from the hard truth of our own recent history."
--Robert Parry, THE CONSORTIUM, 2/17/97
Check out my Real History Archives @ http://www.webcom.com/lpease
Visit the site of Probe Magazine at http://www.webcom.com/ctka
Lisa Pease
Martin Shackelford (msh...@concentric.net) wrote:
: Barb:
: There is no attribution to the story in Forgive My Grief, but Greg
: Jaynes reports that Jones' ex-wife identified the source as Roger Craig.
: Martin
And you're going to believe Greg Oswald-did-it-Oswald-didn't-do-it Jaynes
on this?
Lisa Pease
jack white (jw...@flash.net) wrote:
: FOLKS...I THINK THE WORD **PARTY** IS BEING MISAPPLIED AS IF THIS WERE
: SOME BIG SOCIAL EVENT, WITH INVITATIONS, PRESS COVERAGE, ETC. I THINK
: IT WAS MORE OF A GATHERING OF PEOPLE WHO WERE ASKED TO DROP BY FOR DRINKS,
: NOT A FORMAL PARTY. A LOT OF THE ATTENDEES WERE THERE FOR THE BOTTLERS
: CONVENTION. AS I RECALL, JOAN CRAWFORD AND NIXON WERE AMONG THEM.
: DON*T YOU IMAGINE, IF CONSPIRATORIAL PLANS WERE AFOOT, THAT IN FACT
: THE GATHERING WOULD HAVE BEEN KEPT VERY LOW PROFILE? WHY WOULD THE
: CONSPIRATORS INVITE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD BLAB? BUT OF COURSE,
: APPARENTLY MADELEINE AND SOME OTHERS DID.
Would conspirators talk in front of a single non-conspirator? I find that
extremely unlikely.
Lisa Pease
Martin Shackelford (msh...@concentric.net) wrote:
: David:
: What do you mean no journalists knew about it?
: If you've read the thread, you know that Val Imm and Jeanne
: Barnes attended the party, and Val Imm wrote about it. At various times,
: both later confirmed the event.
That there was "a" party is not the issue. Whether the party included the
topic and guests Madeleine Brown has claimed is the issue.
There were probably many parts of important rich people on any given
night of the week. :) Happens in LA all the time.
Lisa Pease
dli...@earthlink.net wrote:
: Early on, I located a 10 reel collection of microfilm which had the
: assassination coverage of every single paper in the United States, for
: that four day period;
I just wanted to add that people should check their own libraries.
Whenever I'm in another city, I like to visit the library. You'd be
amazed how many of them carry such a collection.
Lisa Pease
Bill Michel (bmiche...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Some confirmation is also given by Chuck Giancana in Double Cross:
: "Mooney[Giancana]said 'both Richard Nixon and Lyndon Johnson knew about the
: whole damned thing,' having met with him in Dallas immediately prior to the
: assassination. What exactly was discussed between these men, Mooney didn't
: say".
: This is not exactly confirmation, but it gives the party story a little more
: credence.
Not when you consider the source. That book is designed to promote a
mob-did-it theory, one that cannot explain the medical evidence, the
alteration of the Zapruder film and other events. So to take that as
confirmation would not be a very discerning act.
Jim Hargrove
George Lamm, Jr. wrote:
>Jim...
>
> I'm not quite sure i understand what you are saying... i only read and
>post to the alt.conspiracy.jfk NG... i personally have no use for a
>moderated NG... are you saying McAdams and the other moderators of the
>moderated NG can prevent my posts to the alt.conspiracy.jfk NG???
>later... george
Yes, if you create or follow-up a post directed to both the moderated and
unmoderated newsgroups. Dr. McAdams often adds his moderated group to the
newsgroup list when he follows up on a post. That gives him control of all
followups to his post, unless alt.assassination.jfk is removed manually.
nk...@sfo.com
Lisa,
DOUBLE CROSS is not a "mob-did-it" book. The Giancanas finger the
CIA
primarily, a well as members of the Mafia, Texas Oil interests,
"politicians" (Nixon and Johnson), and the DPD.
Cliff Varnell
Martin Shackelford
Lisa:
Someone here talked with Penn Jones' ex-wife, who identified Roger
Craig as Penn's source on the party.
Martin
Lisa Pease wrote:
> Barb Junkkarinen (bar...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : In <34B88134...@concentric.net> Martin Shackelford
> : <msh...@concentric.net> writes:
> : >
> : >Barb:
> : >
> : > Penn Jones first published the "party" story in 1969 in the
> : >Midlothian Mirror, and at the end of that year, it was included in
> : >Forgive My Grief III.
> : >
> : >Martin
> : >
> : Thanks for the info, Martin. And who does Jones attribute the story to?
>
> He doesn't. Jim and I tracked this down a while back. He sources it to
> someone whose name he specifically refuses to mention. For this reasons,
> among others, I have never found this story credible.
>
Bill Michel
If you read Giancana's book, you'll find that Chuck Giancana claims that the
Mafia and the CIA were one and the same, and this is borne out over and over
again. Blaming just the CIA is way too simplistic, and fails to account for
reams of hard evidence pointing in other directions. How did the CIA control
a military autopsy? It wasn't CIA agents who took JFK's body out of Parkland
at gunpoint. What was Eugene Hale Brading doing in Dealy Plaza? Why was
David Ferrie at Carlos Marcello's trial? What about Guy Bannister's
connections to Giancana and Marcello? What about Jack Ruby and his Mob ties
to Giancana?What was Brading doing visiting the offices of Hunt Oil? Why did
Marina Oswald visit those same offices? What about Charles Harrelson? He is
clearly one of the tramps in the photo, but he doesn't trace back to the
CIA, he traces back to Hunt Oil, and LBJ.
Was the CIA involved? You bet. There is clear evidence pointing at CIA
leadership. But we also have hard evidence that points in a lot of different
directions - the Mob, the CIA, Military Intelligence, Texas Oil Money, LBJ,
Dallas PD, the FBI, the Pentagon. In reality, it was all of the above, and
Livingstone, Prouty and Giancana acknowledge this. The CIA had the means to
pull off the assassination, but they did not have the power to get the
President's security dropped in DP without the complicity of the Secret
Service and Military Intelligence. The CIA also did not appoint the WC,
Johnson did. Johnson is guilty as hell. Who ordered the limo dismantled?
The CIA could not prevent Hoover from investigating the crime and covering
it up so thoroughly, he did it on his own. What about the Dallas PD's
investigation and cover up of the Tippit shooting?
And another thing - the CIA as an organization did not kill JFK. That would
involve thousands of employees. What we had were elements of the CIA
providing disinformation planning and mechanics. Why is it that you keep
screaming about the CIA but never, ever name names? Why do you fail to
acknowledge any evidence, no matter how factual, that points in any
direction other than the CIA? I believe that your approach is doing the
entire JFK assassination research community a disservice. At times you're
worse than McAdams because you represent the conspiracy side, but you ignore
so much evidence that doesn't fit "The CIA Did IT" theory, and you taunt
that moron and engage him in mindless arguments that confuse the real
issues. The quickest way to stop a tug of war is to drop the rope.
Repeat after me...The CIA could not have done this alone...
Lisa Pease wrote in message ...
>Bill Michel (bmiche...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
>: Some confirmation is also given by Chuck Giancana in Double Cross:
>: "Mooney[Giancana]said 'both Richard Nixon and Lyndon Johnson knew about
the
>: whole damned thing,' having met with him in Dallas immediately prior to
the
>: assassination. What exactly was discussed between these men, Mooney
didn't
>: say".
>
>: This is not exactly confirmation, but it gives the party story a little
more
>: credence.
>
>Not when you consider the source. That book is designed to promote a
>mob-did-it theory, one that cannot explain the medical evidence, the
>alteration of the Zapruder film and other events. So to take that as
>confirmation would not be a very discerning act.
>
Bill Michel
You obviously haven't read this book. Giancana makes it very clear that the
CIA and the Mob were in bed together.
Bill Michel
Why is it that you challenge any evidence that runs counter to the "CIA Did
It" theory? If you check Madeline's story out more carefully, I'll think
you'll find that there were representatives from the CIA there as well. The
party happened.
Which leads to another discussion - How can you rule out the participation
of the Mafia in the assassination? Of course they didn't have the means to
cover up their tracks, but it doesn't mean that they weren't involved. Of
course the CIA was involved, heavily, before, during and after, But how
could the CIA do it by themselves? There are clear indications that the
Dallas PD, the FBI and LBJ all squelched any serious investigations, and
were active participants in the cover up. Are you telling us that the CIA
had the Dallas PD, Hoover, and LBJ on their payroll? Lisa, your "the CIA did
it because I say so" rhetoric is doing this entire newsgroup and the
research community a grave disservice.
Lisa Pease wrote in message ...
>jack white (jw...@flash.net) wrote:
>
>: FOLKS...I THINK THE WORD **PARTY** IS BEING MISAPPLIED AS IF THIS WERE
>: SOME BIG SOCIAL EVENT, WITH INVITATIONS, PRESS COVERAGE, ETC. I THINK
>: IT WAS MORE OF A GATHERING OF PEOPLE WHO WERE ASKED TO DROP BY FOR
DRINKS,
>: NOT A FORMAL PARTY. A LOT OF THE ATTENDEES WERE THERE FOR THE BOTTLERS
>: CONVENTION. AS I RECALL, JOAN CRAWFORD AND NIXON WERE AMONG THEM.
>
>: DON*T YOU IMAGINE, IF CONSPIRATORIAL PLANS WERE AFOOT, THAT IN FACT
>: THE GATHERING WOULD HAVE BEEN KEPT VERY LOW PROFILE? WHY WOULD THE
>: CONSPIRATORS INVITE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD BLAB? BUT OF COURSE,
>: APPARENTLY MADELEINE AND SOME OTHERS DID.
>
>
>Would conspirators talk in front of a single non-conspirator? I find that
>extremely unlikely.
>
Lisa Pease
nk...@sfo.com wrote:
: Lisa,
: DOUBLE CROSS is not a "mob-did-it" book. The Giancanas finger the
: CIA
: primarily, a well as members of the Mafia, Texas Oil interests,
: "politicians" (Nixon and Johnson), and the DPD.
In other words, everyone did it. Not too valuable, and not a very
credible book either.
Lisa Pease
Martin Shackelford (msh...@concentric.net) wrote:
: Lisa:
: Someone here talked with Penn Jones' ex-wife, who identified Roger
: Craig as Penn's source on the party.
: Martin
And you are going to believe that purely on Greg Jaynes "say-so. I cannot.
I've known and talked to several who knew Roger Craig, some of whom
interviewed him extensively. For all he ever had to say, and it was quite
a lot, this info never surfaced anywhere else. What kind of a researcher
would give credence to an unsupportable statement by someone on the
Internet? Seriously, Martin - I never pegged you for that weak a researcher!
Lisa Pease
Bill Michel (bmiche...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Was the CIA involved? You bet. There is clear evidence pointing at CIA
: leadership. But we also have hard evidence that points in a lot of different
: directions - the Mob, the CIA, Military Intelligence, Texas Oil Money, LBJ
What is the "hard evidence"?
The only hard evidence I've seen BEFORE the assassination points squarely
to the CIA. AFTER the assassination quite a number jumped on the bandwagon.
What is this "hard evidence"? Have I missed something? Please elucidate.
Lisa Pease
Bill Michel (bmiche...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Why is it that you challenge any evidence that runs counter to the "CIA Did
: It" theory? If you check Madeline's story out more carefully, I'll think
: you'll find that there were representatives from the CIA there as well. The
: party happened.
I HAVE checked it out. There was a time when I thought hey, where there's
that much smoke there must be fire. I looked. I read. I have yet to find
any reason to believe the woman. Like Judith "the government wants me to
talk again" Exner, her story of attendees at this so-called party is ever
expanding, and therefore not reliable. I'm surprised she has the
following that she has, given the lack of evidence to support anything
she has claimed.
Martin Shackelford
Lisa:
I know Greg Jaynes. I have found him generally reliable in the
past, particularly when he has direct knowledge of something. In this
case, he interviewed Penn's ex-wife, and was simply reporting what she
told him I don't have any reason to disbelieve him on that point. As
Penn was the one who published the story, and his wife was working
closely with him at the time, I consider the source pretty strong for
that particular information.
Martin
Bill Michel
There is clear evidence that all of these parties were involved in the
assassination.
1. Jack Ruby was MAFIA. He reported to Sam Giancana. Do you mean to tell me
that this is not indicative of Mafia involvement? Ruby was Not an employee
of the CIA.
2. Eugene Hale Brading, with an organized crime rap sheet a mile long was
arrested in DP and released. He also worked heavily with Hunt Oil. Brading
was Not an employee of the CIA.
3. On November 22nd 1963, David Ferrie wa attending the trial of Carlos
Marcello in New orleans. Jim Garrison thoroughly documents Ferrie's
involvement in the assassination. WHat's Ferrie doing with Marcello?
4. Why did HL Hunt buy an original copy of the Zapruder film?
5. Johnson's finger prints are all over the setup and the coverup. Who lured
JFK to Dallas? Who helped decide the motorcade planning? Who appointed the
Warren Commission? Who ordered that the Limo be dismantled? It's common
knowledge that there were extensive pre-assassination meetings at Johnson's
ranch prior to the assassination.
6. WHat was Marina Oswald doing in HL Hunt's offices after the
assassination?
7. What was Jack Ruby doing in Hunt's offices before and after the
assassination?
8. Charles Harrelson, convicted hit man, who confessed to killing JFK, is a
dead ringer for one of the tramps in the photos. He doesn't trace back to
the CIA. He does trace back to Texas Oil Money and LBJ.
Lisa Pease wrote in message ...
>nk...@sfo.com wrote:
>: Lisa,
>
>: DOUBLE CROSS is not a "mob-did-it" book. The Giancanas finger the
>: CIA
>: primarily, a well as members of the Mafia, Texas Oil interests,
>: "politicians" (Nixon and Johnson), and the DPD.
>
>
>In other words, everyone did it. Not too valuable, and not a very
>credible book either.
>
>
Greg Jaynes
Lisa Pease wrote:
>
> Bill Michel (bmiche...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
> : Why is it that you challenge any evidence that runs counter to the "CIA Did
> : It" theory? If you check Madeline's story out more carefully, I'll think
> : you'll find that there were representatives from the CIA there as well. The
> : party happened.
>
> I HAVE checked it out. There was a time when I thought hey, where there's
> that much smoke there must be fire. I looked. I read. I have yet to find
> any reason to believe the woman. Like Judith "the government wants me to
> talk again" Exner, her story of attendees at this so-called party is ever
> expanding, and therefore not reliable. I'm surprised she has the
> following that she has, given the lack of evidence to support anything
> she has claimed.
>
> --
> Lisa Pease
I'm impressed. Well said Lisa.
tom guiliano
> Assassination writers from Penn Jones to Harrison Livingstone have long
> suggested that a party held at Texas oilman Clint Murchison's home on
> November 21, 1963 was actually a cover for a final meeting on the
> assassination of John Kennedy. Livingstone writes that he has verified the
> attendance of, among others, J. Edgar Hoover, Lyndon Johnson, H.L. Hunt, and
> John J. McCloy. He also wrote that Madeleine Brown, an LBJ mistress,
> confirmed Penn Jones' published report that Richard Nixon attended the
> party. [_Killing the Truth_, 484]
>
> Citing a personal interview with Brown, Livingstone writes that Johnson
> arrived late to the party (and therefore may have attended only part of the
> closed-door session that included some or all of the above-named men). As
> she was about to leave the Murchison home, Johnson emerged from the private
> meeting and told her and others standing near her: "After tomorrow, that's
> the last time those goddamned Kennedys will embarrass me again." [Ibid, 486]
>
> Does anyone know of earlier published reports of this well-known anecdote?
>
> Since Brown indicated that others also heard Johnson make the statement, is
> anyone aware of reports from others at the party confirming or debunking her
> story?
