Miscellaneous Information on the MANNLICHER- CARCANO
Raymond
Adam Consolidated (CRESCENT FIREARMS)
"Three American firms entered the competition for the 91s that the
Italian Defense Ministry was selling. Adam Consolidated, in
conjunction with the Feldsott brothers,who won the bidding with a
total offer of $ 1,776,OOO for the approximately 570,000 guns."
"...
Some 5300 kilos (approx. 1200 Pounds) of parts were included in the
contract price. Adam also purchased 2,608,704 rounds of
ammunition, which were picked up and paid for as items separate from
the surplus weapons, on three occasions."
Aug. 8, 1960 ....................653,176 cartridges 6.5 mm
July 31, 1961.................... 1,304,352 same
June 6, 1962 ..................... 652,176 same
The price was $13.57 per thousand, or somewhat more than a penny per
bullet.
---- THE GUN - Henry S. Bloomgarden
Apparently, thousands of these Italian rifles were sold in the US
before Crescent won the above bid. Klein's was selling the 7.35 mm as
early as the spring of 1958 In their ad of 4-58, the MANNLICHER HIGH
POWER RIFLE sold for $12.95- Good outside, very good inside. A very
good outside-Excellent inside sold for $14.95 and an Excellent inside
and outside cost $16.95. For 98 cents, a leather sling was available
and a cleaning rod cost 79 cents. Military ammo in clips of six-12
for 98 cents- 48 for $2.98.
The following month-the same ad, but the sling and rod were included
free. From 7-58 until 10-60, Klein's did not advertise any MCs.
Then, in 10-60 appeared their ad for the CUSTOM
SPORTERIZED MODEL for $19.88.
In 3-62 the 6.5 mm was advertised for $11.88. AMERICAN RIFLEMAN . In
1958, Congressman Morano was pleading : "Let's find out where some of
these Carcano rifles have gone." Macy's and Sears Roebuck , as well
as sporting supply stores, discount stores and Army-and-Navy-surplus
stores sold the weapon and the ammo.
Some of these guns came from Finland:
"During the first winter of the war with Russia, Finland procured from
Sweden approximately 15,000
Swedish 6.5 mm M 96 Mausers and 6.5 mm ammunition which Finland
decided to manufacture for these weapons during WW II. Finland
received, in addition, a supply of Italian M38, 7.35 mm carbines via
Germany during WW II. Both weapons saw limited service as they were
relegated to use by the stationary troops, such as guards on bridges,
airfields, railways, waterworks, etc. Today , the greater portion of
the M 38 carbines Finland received can be traced to the U.S. market as
surplus war goods."
----- FROM- BOOK OF RIFLES
I have noticed that there is an interest in the Carcano, its costs,
and also questions about the ammunition. Do yourselves a favor and see
you can still buy this book -THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON.The book was
produced by Gary Nivaggi, in Dec. 1994. In the late 50's and early
60's, many varieties, styles and calibers of the MC rifles were
offered at low prices. ( I recently sold my copy on eBay.)
Nivaggi has photo-copied, from he pages of "American Rifleman" the
marketing of the weapon for the years 1958-1964. Included are full
sized copies of Klein's Sporting Goods ads . Also, ads from various
other dealers and distributors, all selling MCs and MC ammo. The book
contains questions regarding the MC; various ammo loads for it; its
clip, and other great information about the stopping and "knockdown"
capabilities of firearm projectiles. All from the pages of American
Rifleman.
Many questions being asked will all be answered if you own THE
MARKETING OF A WEAPON.
Another book that will provide valuable information that comes from a
real expert on the Carcano. Contact Richard Hobbs, 3958 Cambridge Rd.
# 162, Cameron Park, CA 95682. (Last address I have of Hobbs) Search
bio on Hobbs
Hobbs is a collector of Carcanos since 1945 and probably knows more
about the weapon than anyone in this country. His book: THE CARCANO
Italy's Military Rifle.(About $18.00) He is not a JFK "BUFF."- but he
sure knows that weapon. If you own these two books, you will hardly
ever have a question about the Carcano again.
Also see: http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/armindex.htm
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc.htm
http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/carcano.
"The sling is not a standard rifle sling but appears to be a musical
instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera bag." 3H
397 SA Frazier, FBI.
The sling on the TSBD rifle was a part of a U.S. Air Force holster
and harness set, patented by Norris N. Murray, on March 6, 1956,
patent
No. 2,819,830. ( see U.S. Military Holsters and Pistol cartridge
Boxes By Edward Scott Meadows, 1987 , 376.)
And, the alleged Oswald (TSBD) rifle was not just another Italian
surplus Carcano. The rifle was part of a small lot of rifles that
were specially ordered to be the rifles of the Guardie del Duce, an
elite
group of one hundred men charged with the job of guarding Mussolini .
The stocks were thinner, lighter and were dyed black. ( R.HOBBS, The
Carcano, Italy's Military Rifle)
And, it was not the rifle that LHO had delivered in the spring of
1963. The TSBD weapon was a longer rifle by four inches with sling
swivels on the side of the rifle. The backyard photo rifle had the
swivels on the bottom . The problem!! The rifle delivered from
Klein's had the serial number C-2766. So did the TSBD rifle . That
can't be, unless someone changed the number, which would have been
very easy to do. This weapon had the serial number on the back end of
the barrel, where it screws into the receiver . A simple matter of
minutes to remove and not much more to remove and replace the serial
number. Which means, if I am right, the rifle in the National
Archives has a number that it did not have prior to 11-22-63.
From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination community.:
"Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle? I do!!!
About six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed to
read
C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite simple" (Oh,
by the way, my MC is a 36") If I wanted to frame somebody - I would
get the serial number of their gun - registered to them - find a
duplicate and change to their SN. I would then leave it at the scene
of the crime"
Martha Moyer
Numerous people have compared the photos taken by Marina with photos
of the murder weapon and agree that they are not the same weapon.
SEE THE SECOND CARCANO
http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html
Its a matter of record that there was another MC rifle with the
#2766, that found its way from Montreal to Chicago.The Chicago vendor
was
Alden's. This was the only MC with that number. Italy used the same
numbering system as Germany
The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking
system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,
manufacturing plant, etc.. It began with a three digit serial number,
progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then
began a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through
the
alphabet -A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by
looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's
in Feb. 1963. See Warren - Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain ,
since there were hundreds of thousands of rifles, many would have the
same number, however the prefix would be different. The FBI did
locate a rifle with the serial number 2766, while the LHO rifle was
C-2766.
Numbering system information is from BOOK OF RIFLES by W.H.B.Smith
and Joseph Smith Forward by J.B. Sweet Brig,
Gen,USA Ret, senior editor Copyright 1948 by The
National Rifle Association (Great book to own)
The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited ,in Montreal
Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used Italian
rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156 was
furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the FBI.
ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines
Received by Century Arms, Inc, from Empire: Serial number 2766
appears on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103)
See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 # 13 Warren Report
It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have
identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I
suspect was done in Dallas to frame LHO)
Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time, didn't
understand the numbering system or the Canada connection.
By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on
the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place.
John Cahill, in VA, has four Carcanos and two serial numbers are on
the
receiver, two on the barrel.
There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos
were made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni
may
not have been made there. They could have been made in a small plant
elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in small
plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name .
Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the
manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock of some weapons so the
troops knew what ammo to use.
Want to bet that it is a different rifle than the one bought in the
spring to kill Walker? Want to bet that the serial number now on that
weapon is not the original number? I do. And I would ask Ruth Paine
just who entered her garage and removed the old MC of Oswalds after
he left for work so it would never be found and traced to the murder
that was to happen at 12:30 downtown from Irving. Ask Ruth if the
person
was her friend SA Bardwell "Bard" D. Odum who was waiting in the
empty
house next door to the Paines (used to monitor the Oswalds) and left
her light on in the garage when he left? Ruth knows.
Simple, easy. Anyone could do the same thing with a weapon to change
a serial number and frame another person. And with simple acid
chemicals, the original serial number can be revealed. Lee was a
patsy after all and it will be the weapon in the Archives that will
someday
prove it. Do it now or do it later,- history will use the Archives MC
to prove that the whole assassination was a planned murder of Kennedy
by the people who hated him the most and had the most to
lose..-----.The oil companies, the Mafia and the Pentagon
Walt
You've presented a mish-mash of information.....most of it worthless
as it doesn't serve an purpose concerning the murder of JFK. The
really important information about the way the rifle operates was not
included.
Many so called "experts" think that the rifle can be used as a single
shot rifle.... by placing one cartridge at a time in the rifle and
firing it as is possible with the vast majority of bolt action rifles.
The Mannlicher Carcano CANNOT be used as a single shot rifle NOR CAN
IT BE USED WITHOUT AN AMMUNITION CLIP. The clip loaded with
cartridges is an integral component of the rifle. The clip holds the
cartridges so they can be served up to the bolt as the bolt is
retracted. The spring follower beneath the cartridges pushes the
cartridges up out of the clip until the last round is stripped from
the clip by the forward stroke of the bolt, whereupon the clip becomes
free to drop out of the bottom of the rifle, and the magazine is ready
to accept a new clip od six live rounds.
Here's why this information is critical....... IF that rifle had been
fired from the so called "Sniper's Nest" at the time of the murder
that clip should have been laying on the floor with the spent shells.
The FBI and the Warren Commission said that Oswald had fired three
rounds in 5.6 seconds and killed JFK. The rifle CANNOT be accuraely
fired that fast..PERIOD!! But more important is the fact that NO CLIP
was found on the floor of the so called "Sniper's Nest". IF there
were four cartridges in a Mannlicher Carcano (as the FBI claimed) and
three of them are fired and the fourth is chambered in the firing
chamber then there is NOTHING to hold the clipin the rifle. At the
moment that last round is stripped from the clip by the closing of the
bolt that clip drops out of the rifle. Since three spent rounds were
found on the floor the bolt had to have been opened to extract the
third round, and by this action the fourth and last round would have
been stripped from the clip.
The FBI knew all of this .....but lead the Warren Commission to
believe the rifle had been the murder weapon by LYING about how the
weapon operates.
Raymond
'
' Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to
learn.'
---- Ben Franklin
Walt. You haven't done your homework.
For one thing. The clip is not supposed to fall out when the last
round is chambered to fire.
regardless of wht has been reported.
Any original Italian clip remains in the weapon until another loaded
clip is inserted into the
weapon and it pushed the empty clip out of the bottom of the magazine.
An article, written by CLIP EXPERT Charles H.Yust,Jr. (Some
Interesting Clips)
appeared in the June 1960 issue of American Rifleman. On P.47, a
photo and description of the clip operation appears. As follows:
ITALY- Clip for Model 1891 6.5 mm. Mannlicher Carcano rifle and
carbine employing Mannlicher-type magazine. Holds 6 cartridges. Made
of brass and tinned blued Parkerized and cadmium - plated steel, clip
is held in magazine until last round is used, and then PUSHED OUT
BOTTOM of magazine when new clip is forced in from top. Clip was also
used with Vetterli rifles and carbines altered during World War 1 to
6.5 mm Mannlicher-type magazine. In 1938, when Italy increased
caliber of rifle and carbine to 7.35 mm.,same magazine and clip were
retained.
The original FACTORY FILLED clip (SMI) should not fall out when last
round is chambered as reported. However, numerous clips were made to
accommodate surplus ammo when an original Italian clip was not
available. Some were even homemade. The Dallas clip was in the weapon
when found. It was empty and a round was found in the chamber. The
clip did not fall out. It was an original Italian clip which had been
emptied at some point and refilled with the Western ammo. Probably
because, by 1963, there were reports of misfires with the Italian
ammo. If you are on a mission to kill the most powerful man in the
world, I think it wise to use more reliable ammo.
The rifle's six-round cartridge clip was removed by Lieutenant Day
in the Dallas Police Crime Laboratory
Although poorly documented, the clip was with the rifle when
it was recovered, and remained in evidence.
A little research would have turned up plenty of evidence that the
clip was found with the rifle. Numerous still photos of Lt. J.C. Day
taking the rifle out of the Depository show the clip in the rifle. One
of them, shot by William G. Allen of the Dallas Times Herald
And Day did indeed document the discovery of the clip. A report, dated
11/22/63 and signed by him, mentions one live round in the barrel,
three spent hulls, and and notes that "THE CLIP IS STAMPED SMI 952."
This is the notation on the clip that resides to this day in the
National Archives in College Park, Maryland
Thus, while the paper trail may be less than complete, there simply is
no doubt that the clip was in the rifle when it was recovered in the
Depository, and no reason to doubt that it was in the rifle while
Oswald, or someone else, was shooting it.
Another mistake you made;
The MC does not use a FOLLOWER. It uses an ELEVATOR, which is an
entirely different procedure for moving the rounds up through the
magazine
See Book of Rifles (Hardcover)
~ W. H. Smith (Author), Joseph Smith (Author)
J. Edgar Hoover sent J.Lee Rankin (W.Comm) a letter dated June 2,
1964, regarding the marks made on the shell casings found in the
TSBD, along with marks made on the live round in the weapon that was
found. All, except CE 543, the dented casing found on the floor with
the other two casings, had marks made by the MAGAZINE FOLLOWER,
indicating that they all had been loaded and extracted numerous times
since a follower normally touches only the bottom round in the six
round clip. SEE CE No. 2968.
Hoover's reference to the magazine follower is confusing since the
magazine of the Carcano does not use a follower. It is one of the few
rifles that uses an ELEVATOR instead of a follower. It is possible
that Hoover did not know the difference , but there is a distinct
difference.They both do the same operation of pushing the rounds up
through the clip, but an elevator would make entirely different marks
than would a follower. The magazine of a MC is the projection
Mannlicher type, formed by a continuation forward of the trigger
guard. And, the elevator bears directly on the bottom cartridge in
the clip and does not carry a follower. This is possible because the
cartridge is rimless and permits the use of a straight clip. I don't
believe that C 6, also designated as CE 543 (the dented casing), was
fired from the M/C that day, which means that only two shots were
fired from the Carcano and from the TSBD.
The Warren Commission also considered the possibility that only two
rounds were fired and an empty casing , CE 534, was carried in the MC
and ejected before firing at the motorcade.
SEE page 110 -111 of the WR.
Hoover ended his letter with this sentence: It is pointed out that if
two or more cartridges are loaded into the clip of C 14, only the
bottom cartridge will be marked by the MAGAZINE FOLLOWER
MC Ammo, Clips and Primers
After WWII, Albania was the only European nation to go Communist
without having been invaded by the Soviet Union. It was also Europe's
poorest country and the only one with a Muslim majority. As a result,
it became part of the American policy to assist Italy in the
destruction of the Albanian government. Italy had occupied Albania
throughout WWII.
On March 23, 1964, Mr.R.W. Botts, District Manager, Winchester-
Western Division of Olin, told the FBI that the Western Cartridge
Company had manufactured a quantity of 6.5 mm Mannlicher Carcano
ammunition for the Italian Government during WWII." At the end of the
war the Italian Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type
ammunition, was sold to the United States gun brokers and
dealers and was eventually distributed by direct sales to
wholesalers,
retailers, and individual purchasers." (CE.No.2694)
By the time that the US decided to overthrow the Hoxha government,
there was very little Italian ammo for MC's left in Italy, so Western
was contracted to supply the necessary ammo. When the attempt failed,
the ammo was put into storage . It reappeared when the plans were in
progress to invade Cuba. Both the surplus rifles and Italian ammo
were used as well as some of the Western ammo.
John Masen, owner of Masen's Gun Shop, in Dallas, bought 10 boxes of
Western ammo from John Brinegar, owner of The Gun Shop, also in
Dallas. He sold the 10 boxes to individuals. All of this ammo had a
military load. Later, in the summer of 1963, he bought 10 more boxes
of Western from Brinegar. Since this ammo was used mostly for deer
hunting, he "pulled" the bullets in the last batch and reloaded it
with a hunting type bullet (lead nose).Brinegar testified that "the
6.5 mm rifle was rather common in the Dallas area and he felt that
the larger gun dealers, pawn shops, sporting goods, and H.L.Green
Company Stores would have handled the 6.5 mm MC Western
ammo, as he recalled seeing ads for this 6.5 western ammo."
( CE Ex. No. 2694.)
Al Yeargan, who was manager of the fourth floor Gun Dept. , at
Green's , testified that he sold both the rifle and the Italian ammo,
but never did sell any of the Western ammo.
Some researchers wondered why LHO did not buy his ammo from Klein's.
It could be that Klein's policy warned buyers that "Hand gun orders,
and orders with ammo , are shipped express, charges collect. "
Surely , Lee knew that he could get ammo in Dallas without the
express shipping and the charges. Also. I'm sure that Lee knew about
the aging Italian ammo and the misfires, and also knew about the
better
Western ammo.
The Italian ammo was all military loaded and not desired by hunters,
so many dealers reloaded the shells with soft point projectiles.
The MC ammo came in preloaded clips. This ammo quickly disappeared
and these casings could not be reloaded because all ammo, other than
American, used the Berdan primer. All Western had the American Boxer
primer. Because so many MCs were sold in America, there was a need
for Carcano rounds, and since none was being manufactured, a company
in Sweden, NORMA by name, began selling 6.5 mm ammo to Carcano
owners.
The NORMA ammo contained a "soft-point" bullet and it used the Boxer
primer, so the consumer could do his own reloading. The round is
identifiable by the Norma name on the bottom of the shell rim, along
with the 6.5 mm marking
Raymond
'Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; an argument an exchange of
ignorance.'
--- Robert Quillen
Wrong Walt; It is possible to use the MC as a single shot weapon.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Mr. Frazier, will you give your name and position?
Mr. Frazier.
Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation,
assigned to the FBI Laboratory, Washington, D.C.
We examine ammunition of various types to identify it as to its
caliber, its specific designation, and the type or types of weapons in
which it can be fired, and we make comparisons of bullets to determine
whether or not •they were fired from a particular weapon and make
comparisons of cartridge cases for the purpose of determining whether
or not they were fired in a particular weapon, or for determining
whether or not they had been loaded into or extracted from a
particular weapon.
That training course lasted for approximately 1 year. However, of
course, the experience in firearms is actually part of the training
and continues for the entire time in which you are engaged in
examining firearms.
Briefly, that is the summary of the firearms training I have had.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Could you estimate the number of examinations you have made of
firearms to identify the firearms?
Mr. Frazier.
Thousands, I would say--firearms comparisons--I have made in the
neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000.
Mr. Mccloy.
Have you written any articles on this subject?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes. I have predated an article for the "FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin"
on firearms identification, which is published as a reprint and
provided to any organization or person interested in the general field
of firearms identification.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page391.php
Mr. Mccloy.
Can you use that rifle without the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes; you can.
Mr. Mccloy.
What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. Frazier.
It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one
shot at a time.
Mr. Mccloy.
The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. Mccloy.
When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with
the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Mccloy.
The same as the .30-06?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page398.php
-----------------------------------------
Walt
I'll make you a deal Raymond .......I'll bet you $100.00 that the
Mannlicher Carcano is designed so that the clip falls out of the rifle
when the last round is stripped from the clip by the forward stroke of
the boltt. here's how I'll prove it to you....You get on a plane and
fly to my house and we'll take one of my Mannlicher Carcanos out to
the rifle range and test it to see if the clip falls out when the last
round is chambered. If it doesn't fall out as I've said. I'll pay
your plane fare and $100.00 .... But if it does fallout when the last
round is chambered...you pay for your planr fare and pay me $100.00.
Ithink you can see that I don't give a damn about what is reported by
the "experts"...I KNOW from experience..... I own many Carcanos and
you can select any one of them for the test.
I hope you will take me up on my offer .....I could use an extra C
note.....
Walt
Obviously you are one confused dude.... You don't know what the hell
you belioeve....one minute you're arguing as if Oswald was the
killer.... and the next breath you're arguing that he was not.
the killer. You certainly don't know much about Mannlicher Carcanos