CE399 -- A Mountain Climber's Nightmare (If You're A Conspiracy Theorist)

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David Von Pein

Oct 22, 2007, 8:28:38 PM10/22/07
>>> "...There is a huge controversy about the authenticity of the bullet that was found....at Parkland hospital. You make it appear as if there is no debate about the Parkland bullet (CE 399), but you know damned well there is." <<<

The "huge controversy" surrounding CE399 is only "huge" because of the
CTers of the world who want to think that somebody placed that bullet
into the official record of the murder case of an assassinated U.S.
President in order to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for that murder.

But such a notion is just plain silly. It's also a notion that is very
extraordinary in nature. And is there really and truly a good reason
in this case to believe in any type of "extraordinary" theory with
respect to Bullet CE399 (i.e., a conspiracy theory that has some
unknown person or persons placing CE399 into the official record of
the JFK case in a desire to frame Lee Harvey Oswald for the
President's murder), when so many additional, corroborative pieces of
physical and circumstantial evidence ALSO lead down that same "IT WAS
OSWALD" path?

Given this "corroboration" regarding the evidence in the case, the
theory that has Bullet 399 being "tainted" in some fashion is highly
improbable (even if the bullet did, indeed, have a very weak "chain of
custody" or "chain of possession") -- Because CE399 is a bullet which

CE399 is a bullet that came out of the VERY SAME GUN that is also
positively linked to the bullet fragments found in the Presidential
limousine and the very same gun that is also positively linked to the
three cartridge cases found on the Book Depository's sixth floor (the
same floor where the weapon that was linked to all of these pieces of
ballistics evidence was also found).

If CE399 had been the ONLY piece of ballistics evidence that was found
after the shooting, then the CTers would have a much better argument
for that bullet being "planted", or "substituted", or whatever.*

* = But even in such a make-believe scenario, those CTers could still
never in a million years "prove" that the bullet had been planted (or
placed into evidence by one or more evil "conspirators"), but at least
the suspicious conspiracists would have had a better argument, because
in such a hypothetical instance, CE399 would have been the ONLY piece
of bullet-related evidence connected with Oswald's rifle.

But since there's so much OTHER stuff (bullet-wise and shell-wise)
that links Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano to the assassination, CTers who
continue to want to believe that CE399 didn't really come out of
Oswald's rifle when JFK's car passed through Dealey Plaza on November
22nd have a very large mountain to climb in order to advance the "399
Is A Fraud" conspiracy theory.

Because if CE567 and CE569 (the two front-seat bullet fragments linked
conclusively to Oswald's rifle) are the Real McCoy (i.e., genuine
evidence that wasn't tampered with in some manner)....

And: if the three bullet shells that were found by the police
underneath the sniper's window on the sixth floor are also genuine....

Then common sense (plus the overall ODDS) would certainly indicate
that it's very, very likely that Bullet #399 was ALSO a "genuine"
article as well, with that whole bullet exiting Lee Harvey Oswald's
gun at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63 in Dealey Plaza.

And if the CTers wish to travel down the "ALL OF THE CARCANO (C2766)
BULLET EVIDENCE IS TAINTED" road, then they've got THREE "This
Evidence Is Tainted" mountains to climb -- the "CE567/569" mountain;
the "Shells In The Window" mountain; and the large hill marked "CE399"

I hope those CTers are in good shape and are really good mountain
climbers. Because getting to the top of just ONE of those three Mount
Everests is likely to give an average (and reasoned-thinking) person a

But that hasn't stopped certain conspiracy theorists from heading up
that unclimbable series of peaks. Has it?


Gil Jesus

Oct 22, 2007, 8:36:49 PM10/22/07
You deleted this posting once before when I tried to respond so let's
try it again:

The keystone of the Warren Commission's case against Lee Harvey
was what became known as "The Single Bullet Theory".

This theory (which has never been proven) was necessitated by the
timing of the shots as recorded by the Zapruder film, and the number
of shells (3) that were found in the Texas School Book Depository.

The Single Bullet Theory maintains that one shot hit JFK in the head,
the other missed the car completely striking the curb and causing a
piece of concrete or bullet to strike James Tague in the face, and
third was "the single bullet" that was responsible for all of the
fatal wounds in President Kennedy and Governor Connally.

It is this bullet, Commission Exhibit No. 399, which the Commission
claimed was the one that caused all of the non-fatal wounds in both
The Commission reported that this bullet had been found on Governor
Connally's stretcher at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

However, not only was this bullet not found on the Governor's
stretcher, there is strong evidence that this bullet was not fired in
Dealey Plaza and thus had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK
or the wounding of Governor Connally.

First, let's take a look at the discovery of the bullet.


When the presidential limousine arrived at Parkland Hospital, the
Governor was taken into Trauma Room 2 (The President was taken to
Trauma Room 1) in the hospital's emergency room. After being examined
by the doctors, he was taken, on the same stretcher, to a second
operating room. There he was removed from the stretcher and placed on
an operating cart. An orderly, R.J.Jimison, then rolled the stretcher
onto an elevator, leaving it unattended.
(WC Report, pp. 80-81)

Senior Hospital Engineer Darrell Tomlinson discovered the stretcher
the elevator and placed it next to a stretcher located in a corridor
on the ground floor at about 1:12 PM. Despite the Commission's
contention that "a few minutes later he bumped one of the stretchers
against a wall and a bullet rolled out", Tomlinson actually left the
stretcher unattended for almost 40 minutes. He discovered the bullet
sometime between 1:45 and 1:50 PM. (Ibid., 81)
Tomlinson stated that, "I bumped the the wall and a spent cartridge
bullet rolled out that apparently been lodged under the edge of the
mat." (WC Hearings VI, p. 130)

Tomlinson, being the person that found the bullet, was the only
of information about its location when found. As such, he was
subjected to a series of leading questions by WC Counsel Arlen
Bullet Theory" Specter. Tomlinson later told a researcher that he had
been unhappy with Specter's line of questioning. Originally certain
that the bullet came from a stretcher that had no connection to the
case, Tomlinson finally admitted that the bullet may have come from
Connally's stretcher after being hounded by Specter.

But publicly, Tomlinson maintained his position that the bullet he
found came from a stretcher other than Connally's.


If Tomlinson was unhappy with Specter, the Commission was quite
It concluded that " although Tomlinson was not certain whether the
bullet came from the Connally stretcher or an adjacent one, the
Commission has concluded that the bullet came from Governor
stretcher." (Ibid. VI, 130-34; Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas,
WC Report, 81)

Tomlinson was certain that the bullet was on a stretcher that was not
Governor Connally's and had nothing to do with the assassination.
However, even if the only witness was uncertain, the Commission
concluded on its own and with no proof to support it, that the bullet
came from Connally's stretcher.
In the realm of American jurisprudence, this conclusion would be
laughable if the case hadn't involved a murder.
Such stupidity would have been thrown out of "Judge Judy's "
for sure !

But that's not the end of this bizarre tale--there's more !


Neither Tomlinson, nor the man he gave the bullet to, O.P. Wright,
personnel director of security at the hospital, would identify CE 399
as the bullet found on the stretcher. In November 1966, Wright was
interviewed by researcher Josiah Thompson and told him, in the
prescence of two witnesses, that CE 399 was definitely NOT the bullet
that Tomlinson handed him. Wright procured a pointed .30 caliber
bullet and told Thompson that the bullet resembled it.
(Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas, p. 175-76)

Wright's revelation suggests that after he turned over to the Secret
Service the bullet that Tomlinson found, it was substituted for a
bullet that could be ballistically matched to Oswald's rifle.
And that Western Cartridge bullet that was fired from Oswald's rifle
after the assassination and used to replace the bullet that Tomlinson
found, became Warren Commission Exhibit 399--what I call, "the Not-
Magic Bullet".

The substitution of CE 399 for the stretcher bullet is more than
possible : the facts support it.

The stretcher bullet was never taken seriously by either the FBI or
the Secret Service as evidence in the case. When O.P. Wright tried to
get the FBI to come look at the bullet on the stretcher, they were
uninterested. Then he contacted a Secret Service agent who refused to
view it. The bullet was never photographed in its position of
discovery. So Wright picked it up and carried it over to SS Agent
Richard Johnson, who put it in his pocket without putting any
identifying marks on it.
Apparently, none of the Federal agencies were interested in
evidence at the time.

The chain of possession of this particular piece of evidence
that it was the FBI, and not the Secret Service, that made the
substitution from the stretcher bullet to CE 399. The stretcher
went from SA Johnson to SS Chief James Rowley, who turned it over to
Elmer Todd of the FBI who then gave it to Robert Frazier of the FBI
lab. (WC Hearings, XVIII, pp. 799-800)

Tomlinson and Wright, the only men who saw the bullet on the
stretcher, would not identify CE 399 as being that bullet.
Also, SS Chief Rowley and SA Johnson also would not identify CE 399
the stretcher bullet. (Ibid., XXIV, p. 412)

So here we have four witnesses within the chain of possession of the
evidence that say that CE 399 was NOT the bullet found on the
stretcher at Parkland Hospital. And yet, some time between Rowley's
handing it to Todd and Todd giving it to Frazier, the stretcher
became CE 399.

How do I know it was the FBI that substituted the bullet ? Because
Rowley refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet that he gave to the
FBI. Which means that CE 399 was NOT the bullet that he gave to them.
He handed the REAL stretcher bullet to Todd. Agent Todd received the
real stretcher bullet and while this bullet was in the possession of
the FBI, because it had no bearing on the case against Oswald, it was
replaced by a bullet that had been fired from Oswald's rifle--that
bullet we now know as CE 399.


Upon receiving CE 399, Robert Frazier examined it and said that the
bullet did not have ANY microscopic particles from Kennedy's shirt or
coat or Connally's shirt, coat, or trousers, despite having allegedly
gone through all five garments.
(WC Hearings III, pp 428-31)

He further went on to say that had the bullet gone through coarse
cloth or leather, he would have expected to see microscopic particles
of those fabrics on the bullet. Why ? Because, ALL bullets pick up
microscopic particles from ANY fabric that they travel through and he
expected to see particles of fabric from the victim's clothing on CE
But this was not the case when he examined this bullet.

What Frazier is saying here is this: based on his experience with
bullets travelling through clothing, CE 399 did not go through either
Kennedy's shirt and coat, or Connally's shirt and coat. Nor did it
pass through his trousers.

Without particles of clothing on the bullet, the only way that CE 399
could have travelled through both men was if they had taken their
shirts and coats off before they were shot. And that didn't happen.

The lack of microscopic particles of the President's clothing or
Governor Connally's clothing on CE 399 is further evidence that this
bullet had nothing to do with the assassination of President John F.
Kennedy or the wounding of Governor John B. Connally. The additional
fact that four eyewitnesses refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet
found on the stretcher at Parkland Hospital further supports my
that CE 399 had nothing to do with the assassination of President
Kennedy and the wounding of Governor Connally.

But that's not the only thing missing from this bullet.

There was no blood or bone particles on CE 399 when examined, despite
it allegedly having gone through two good-sized men. This bullet was
alleged to have caused seven wounds: two in Kennedy and five in
Connally. It blew out four inches of the Governor's fifth rib,
pulverizing it into dust, broke the radial bone in his right wrist
ended up in his thigh and yet--no blood, no bone.
(WC Hearings III, pp 428-31)

If the witnesses' refusal to identify CE 399 as the stretcher bullet,
the lack of microscopic particles from the victim's clothing on CE
399, and the lack of bone or blood on CE 399 hasn't convinced the
reader yet that CE 399 had nothing to do with the assassination of
and the wounding of JBC, let's consider the Neutron Activation
Analysis that was performed on CE 399 and the fragments removed from
Governor Connally's wrist.


Let me preface this section by saying that every manufacturer of
ammunition has his own mixture of elements when making lead. In
addition, every manufacturer uses the same mixture in every one of
bullets, regardless of the caliber. Only by measuring those elements
can Law Enforcement investigators determine which manufacturer made a
particular bullet. In a single ammunition-type scenario, all of the
elements of recovered bullets and bullet fragments will be identical.
Conversely, ANY variation of the percentage of any one element,
indicates that the bullets and bullet fragments were made from
different manufacturers.

The significance of all of this is that only one manufacturer,
Cartridge Company, made ammunition for the Mannlicher-Carcano, the
alleged murder weapon. Since only one manufacturer made the
ammunition, all of the bullets and bullet fragments should have the
exact same percentage of each element. Conversely, if the percentages
differed even slightly, it would indicate that some of the bullets or
bullet fragments originated from ammunition made by a manufacturer
other than Western.
If the elements do not match ANY manufacturer, chances are that
someone melted down the lead from bullets and made their own
"reloads". We will examine that possibility later.

If the ammunition came from a source other than Western, the weapon
that fired it could not have been Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle,
or for that matter, ANY Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, because Western was
the only one that made the ammo for that rifle.

Having said all of that, investigators would be looking to compare CE
399, the Single Bullet that the FBI alleged had created all of the
fatal wounds in president Kennedy and Governor Connally, with the
bullet fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist. If the
elements were exactly the same, like a fingerprint, it would be solid
evidence that CE 399 was the same bullet that hit Governor Connally
the wrist. In addition, in this particular test, they compared CE 399
(which they knew WAS ammo for a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle) with the
Kennedy head fragments and the fragments found in the limousine.
( To try to prove that one gun made all of the shots)

The method used to examine the bullets and bullet fragments was the
Neutron Activation Analysis. It is a procedure whereby objects are
bombarded with nuclear radiation. The irradiated objects will display
different levels of radiation according to their chemical
Each of the chemical elements composing the object will emit gamma
rays, which can be measured in amounts as small as one-billionth of a
gram. Each Western Cartridge bullet is made up of copper, lead,
silver, antimony, bismuth, zinc, and traces of other elements. In
test, only silver and antimony were measured.

The results of the test for silver and antimony indicated that CE 399
did NOT match the Connally wrist fragments.
In addition, CE 399 was compared to the Kennedy head fragments and
limousine fragments. It matched neither. The Kennedy head fragments
contained 20% less silver and 40% less antimony than CE 399.
(FBI Results of Neutron Activation Analysis, 72-page report dated 6
May 1964, FBI papers)

Since CE 399 was a Western Cartridge round and did not match the
Kennedy head fragments or the limousine fragments, the test proved
that the bullets that caused these fragments were NOT Western
Cartridge ammunition and thus had NOT been fired from a Mannlicher
Carcano rifle.
More importantly, it proved that the Kennedy head shot did NOT come
from a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.

The test was so conclusive, that the FBI did not waste their time
measuring any of the other elements.


In September 1977, the House Select Committee on Assassinations had
another NAA test done on CE 399 and the Connally wrist fragments. Its
expert, Dr. Vincent P. Guinn of the Chemistry Department at the
University of California at Irvine, conducted the test.
Dr. Guinn found that the Connally wrist fragment contained 25% more
silver and 850% more copper than CE 399. It also contained 2400% more
sodium and 1100% more chlorine and it contained 8.1 parts per million
of aluminum, while CE 399 contained none.
(HSCA Hearings, I, p.538)

However, there were evidentiary problems with Dr. Guinn's test. The
wrist fragments that were originally tested in 1964 had vanished by
the time Guinn began his work for the HSCA. (I HSCA, p. 562) The
fragments he received from the National Archives were NOT the same
fragments tested in 1964. The description of the 1964 fragments did
not match the fragments he received in 1977.

When he weighed the fragments, not one of the fragments that he was
given matched the weight on record of a 1964 fragment.
Guinn told the HSCA that the Archives assured him that the fragments
they gave him were "the only bullet-lead fragments from this case
still present in the Archives". Guinn stated: "Presumably those are
existence somewhere..but where they are, I have no idea." He also
the committee that the wrist fragments would not have been destroyed
by testing in 1964.

To this day, no one knows what happened to the original Connally
fragments. (I HSCA, p. 562)

The implication here is obvious: Sometime between the completion of
the original test in 1964 and the time Dr. Guinn received the
fragments from the National Archives in 1977, the 1964 wrist
were substituted with fragments from CE 399.

In a tape recorded interview in the hallway after his testimony to
HSCA, Dr. Guinn posed the possibility of substitution in explaining
why two different tests resulted in two different conclusions. He
said, "Possibly they would take a bullet, take out a few little
and put it in the container, and say, 'This is what came out of
Connally's wrist'. And naturally, if you compare it with 399, it will
look alike....I have no control over these things."
Which explains why Dr. Guinn concluded that the Connally wrist
fragments and CE 399 were a match, despite the overwhelming evidence
to the contrary and the indication that the fragments that he tested
in 1977 were not the original Connally wrist fragments.

He had no control over his conclusions.


I believe that I've made a pretty good case for throwing out CE 399
evidence. That's what would have been done to it if it had been
introduced as evidence in any murder case in any court in the US.
garbage ! It's manufactured evidence and has no bearing on the
assassination of President Kennedy and the wounding of Governor

Even though it contained ballistic markings that matched it to
Oswald's rifle, there is no proof that CE 399 was fired on November
22, 1963. There is substantial proof, however, that CE 399 was fired
at a later date when the rifle was in the hands of the FBI. CE 399
lacked clothing fibers from either victim. It lacked blood and bone
particles from either victim. Four eyewitnesses who possessed the
stretcher bullet refused to identify CE 399 as that bullet.

The Neutron Activation Test conducted by the Atomic Energy Commission
1964 found differences in the silver and antimony between the
wrist fragments and CE 399, proving that CE 399 was NOT the bullet
that struck Governor Connally's wrist.

And Dr. Vincent Guinn's test, comparing CE 399 to the wrist fragments,
for the House Select
Committee on Assassinations in 1977, is useless because (by his own
admission) he did not test the original wrist fragments.

More significant, is that the above evidence shows that since CE 399
WAS a Western Cartridge bullet, and it didn't match ANY of the
fragments in Connally's wrist, the President's head, or the
and since Western was the only company that made ammunition for the
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, the evidence also proves that a Mannlicher-
Carcano rifle did not cause ANY of Connally's wounds or Kennedy's

All of the above reasons support my theory that CE 399 was not part
the Kennedy Assassination in any way. It really was the "Not-So-
Bullet", because it never did anything magical.
In fact, it never did anything at all.


Oct 22, 2007, 8:57:24 PM10/22/07

An interesting copy and paste. Who's the author?


Oct 22, 2007, 9:08:10 PM10/22/07
On Oct 22, 5:36 pm, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
> (Snipped)

It sure is a nightmare for CTer's and the mountain of evidence
that proves it is the only solution that satisfy's all the available
evidence is still growing to Mt. Everest proportions to this very
day ! :


** http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt2.gif
Download the forensic animation :
Download (190x144 916 K) :
Download (320x256 936 K) :

*** Even Tom Rossley admits now that it's true :

**** The Single Bullet Theory :

***** The people who rendered a opinion as to the
source of the shots were tabulated by the HSCA ,
this is the most precise tabulation to date , here
are the results :

Direction of where shots originated :

53.8 % TSBD ( Concures w/ WCR )
33.7 % grassy knoll
4.8 % 2 directions
7.7 % other

The number of shots :

76.7 % 3 Shots exactely (Concures w/ WCR )
10.5 % 1 or 2 shots
8.7 % 4 or more
4.1 % 2 or 3 Shots

This tabulation is indicative of only one conclusion ,
besides backing what the WCR said . There was
confusion as to the source of the shots . No one on
the day of the assassination reported they saw a
man with a gun on the grassey knoll firing . It's just
not in any of the primary sources and that's a fact ! .


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