Did Bullet CE399 Deposit "Too Many Fragments" Inside John Connally? Hardly....

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David Von Pein

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Jan 7, 2007, 8:23:58 PM1/7/07
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MANY/MOST CONSPIRACY THEORISTS SEEM TO BE OF THE OPINION THAT THE
STRETCHER BULLET (CE399) COULD NOT HAVE POSSIBLY DEPOSITED ALL OF THE
FRAGMENTS THAT WERE SEEN INSIDE GOVERNOR JOHN CONNALLY'S BODY ON
11/22/63.

ARE THOSE CONSPIRACISTS CORRECT?

HARDLY.....

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Warren Commission Exhibit #CE399 (the "Stretcher Bullet" found by
Darrell Tomlinson inside Parkland Hospital prior to 2:00 PM on the
afternoon of November 22nd, 1963) has been a major focus of controversy
since JFK's murder in Dallas.

Conspiracy advocates claim that the bullet's missing grains of lead
(which totalled approximately 2.2 grains, when an "average"/"median"
weight of an unfired WCC/MC 6.5mm bullet like CE399 is used as a
comparison) are less than the weight of the bullet fragments that were
discovered inside the body of Texas Governor John B. Connally on
11/22/63.

But is this a reasonable conclusion for anyone to come to? In other
words, did Governor Connally really have MORE than approximately 2.2
grains of bullet lead/fragments inside his body prior to being operated
on by Parkland physicians on November 22nd?

Well, let's examine the official record concerning that important
question.....

With respect to Connally's wrist injury, there is the following Warren
Commission testimony from the doctor at Dallas' Parkland Hospital who
was in charge of that particular wound (Dr. Charles F. Gregory):

ARLEN SPECTER -- "Will you describe, as specifically as you can, what
those metallic fragments are by way of size and shape, sir?"

DR. CHARLES GREGORY -- "I would identify these fragments as varying
from five-tenths of a millimeter in diameter to approximately two
millimeters in diameter. And each fragment is no more than a half
millimeter in thickness. They would represent, in lay terms,
flakes...flakes of metal."

MR. SPECTER -- "What would your estimate be as to their weight in
total?"

DR. GREGORY -- "I would estimate that they would be weighed in
micrograms, which is {a} very small amount of weight. I don't know how
to reduce it to ordinary equivalents for you. It is the kind of
weighing that requires a micro-adjustable scale; which means that it is
something less than the weight of a postage stamp."

MR. SPECTER -- "For the purpose of this consideration, I am interested
to know whether the metal which you found in the wrist was of
sufficient size so that the bullet which passed through the wrist could
not have emerged virtually completely intact or with 158 grains intact,
or whether the portions of the metallic fragments were so small that
that would be consistent with having virtually the entire
6.5-millimeter bullet emerge?"

DR. GREGORY -- "Well, considering the small volume of metal as seen by
X-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was recovered,
I think several such fragments could have been flaked off of a total
missile mass without reducing its volume greatly."

~~~~~~

Regarding Governor Connally's chest injuries:

ARLEN SPECTER -- "Was any metallic substance from the bullet left in
the thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the
Governor's body?"

DR. ROBERT SHAW -- "No. We saw no evidence of any metallic material in
the X-ray that we had of the chest, and we found none during the
operation."

~~~~~~

Regarding Connally's superficial thigh wound:

DR. CHARLES GREGORY -- "A fragment of metal, again microscopic,
measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by two millimeters, lies
just beneath the skin, about a half-inch on the medial aspect of the
thigh."

ARLEN SPECTER -- "What is your best estimate of the weight of that
metallic fragment?"

DR. GREGORY -- "This again would be in micrograms, postage stamp weight
thereabouts. Not much more than that."

~~~~~~

In addition, we have this very interesting comment from Dr. Gregory:

DR. GREGORY -- "I think again that bullet, Exhibit 399, could very well
have struck the thigh in a reverse fashion and have shed a bit of its
lead core into the fascia immediately beneath the skin, yet never have
penetrated the thigh sufficiently so that it eventually was dislodged
and was found in the clothing.

I would like to add to that we were disconcerted by not finding a
missile at all. Here was our patient with three discernible wounds, and
no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them, and
we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other
areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found,
rather."

~~~~~~

Therefore, in total, we have the following "Connally Bullet Fragments
Inventory":

1.) The very small fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist (of
microscopic "postage stamp" weight). The preoperative X-ray of
Connally's wrist (CE690) shows the fragments and reflects the very
small nature of all the fragments that were deposited by the bullet in
the wrist (remember, this is PREoperative, so all TOTAL fragments are
visible in the wrist):

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0187a.htm

CE691 (another preoperative X-ray) shows the wrist fragments from a
different angle. Again, the fragments are very small in size:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0187b.htm

2.) Zero metallic fragments discovered in Goveror Connally's
chest/thorax. CE681 is the 11/22/63 chest X-ray of JBC:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0182b.htm

3.) One extremely-tiny bullet fragment in JBC's thigh (again "postage
stamp" type of weight). CE694 shows the thigh (preoperative):

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0189a.htm

~~~~~~

In Addition........

Dr. John Lattimer did an experiment with a WCC/MC bullet (just like
CE399), whereby he squeezed the bullet in a vise to extrude approx. 2
grains of lead from the base of the missile (to match the approximate
amount of lead that was missing from CE399, which, in point of fact,
was slightly more than 2 grains).

Lattimer's two grains of Mannlicher-Carcano bullet yielded 41 separate
small, sliced fragments (any one of which looks larger than ANY of the
fragments that were deposited in John Connally's body by the bullet
that struck him on November 22, 1963).

Have a look:

http://tinypic.com/2s7vnk0.jpg

Via Dr. Lattimer's book:

"Some critics have contended that the four bullet fragments in Governor
Connally are too many to be accounted for by the two grains of lead
missing from bullet 399. In our experiments we were able to make
forty-one such fragments from the two-grain piece of lead that extruded
from our test bullet. It can safely be said, therefore, that four
fragments are by no means too many to be accounted for by the two
grains missing from bullet 399." -- J.K. Lattimer; "Kennedy And
Lincoln"; Pages 276-277

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.html/ref=cm_rdp_dp/103-9597227-6764635?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0151522812&authorID=A1FDW1SPYKB354&store=yourstore&reviewID=R2Y8HMTWRF6L2Q&displayType=ReviewDetail

~~~~~~

Given the above evidence, which verifies beyond all reasonable doubt
that the total amount of bullet fragments that existed in all of John
Connally's body on 11/22/63 most certainly did not (and COULD NOT) have
exceeded the missing 2.2 grains of Bullet CE399, I cannot understand
why so many JFK conspiracy proponents continue to soldier on in their
efforts to prove that Bullet CE399 is a missile that could not possibly
have been inside Governor Connally based on the "Amount Of Missing
Lead" factor.

But, then too, I've never been able to figure out the (il)logic of
CTers as a whole either. So, there's nothing new there I guess. ;)

David Von Pein
January 2007

cdddraftsman

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Jan 7, 2007, 10:41:23 PM1/7/07
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Indeed ! Another impossibility claimed by Conspiracy Apologists who
cannot
conceive of this happening , willingly or otherwise , but apparently
can't count
either ..........................TL

curtj...@hotmail.com

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Jan 8, 2007, 11:30:35 AM1/8/07
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David Von Pein wrote:
> MANY/MOST CONSPIRACY THEORISTS SEEM TO BE OF THE OPINION THAT THE
> STRETCHER BULLET (CE399) COULD NOT HAVE POSSIBLY DEPOSITED ALL OF THE
> FRAGMENTS THAT WERE SEEN INSIDE GOVERNOR JOHN CONNALLY'S BODY ON
> 11/22/63.
>
> ARE THOSE CONSPIRACISTS CORRECT?
>
> HARDLY.....
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

And let's not forget about what might have been left in JFK as well?
And of course they NEED to use the bullet found in Parkland because it
couldn't have belonged to any others. Anyway, one needs to look at
everything involved and reading this, one will see how they did have to
come up with this wacky theory as their first theorizing did not seem
to work.


http://www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk/The%20Wounding%20of%20John%20Connally.htm

CJ

curtj...@hotmail.com

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Jan 8, 2007, 11:38:09 AM1/8/07
to
cdddraftsman wrote:
> Indeed ! Another impossibility claimed by Conspiracy Apologists who
> cannot
> conceive of this happening , willingly or otherwise , but apparently
> can't count
> either ..........................TL
>

And we can't have crafty complaining of nothing to read either..can we?

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/PGchp5.html

CJ

David Von Pein

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Jan 8, 2007, 3:32:07 PM1/8/07
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>>> "And let's not forget about what might have been left in JFK as well?" <<<


Even if you added in more than 30 "JFK fragments" of this size....

http://tinypic.com/2s7vnk0.jpg

....in order to account for anything left inside JFK's body from CE399
(which totalled either ZERO fragments or some amount of lead so tiny
that none of the fragments were even noticed by James Humes and other
people when they looked at JFK's X-rays at the autopsy on
11/22/63)....you'll still have absolutely NO CASE at all in the "TOO
MANY FRAGMENTS WERE LEFT INSIDE THE VICTIMS" regard.

Good luck finding over 30 fragments of this size inside Kennedy (or
Connally for that matter)....

http://tinypic.com/2s7vnk0.jpg

lazu...@webtv.net

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Jan 8, 2007, 4:28:12 PM1/8/07
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What about the five or six fragments removed from JBC's wrist? According
to nurse Audrey Bell, who held these in the palm of her hand, the larger
of these was about the "size of a matchhead". That alone is much more
than is missing from CE 399. The wrist shot, at the very least, was not
the result of CE 399. Then there's the fragment lodged against JBC's
left femur, which remains in his body to this day. Seen on X ray, it
could very well be larger than the missing portion of CE 399.

David Von Pein

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Jan 8, 2007, 4:52:54 PM1/8/07
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>>> "What about the five or six fragments removed from JBC's wrist?" <<<

I guess that must be why Dr. Gregory said this to the WC:

"There were two fragments of metal retrieved in the course of dealing
with this wound surgically. .... I thought I had retrieved two of them.
.... I would estimate that they would be weighed in micrograms, which
is {a} very small amount of weight. .... It is something less than the
weight of a postage stamp. .... Considering the small volume of metal


as seen by X-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was
recovered, I think several such fragments could have been flaked off of

a total missile mass without reducing its volume greatly." -- DR. C.F.
GREGORY

All lies, I guess. Right?

I guess Nurse Bell knows more about the number of fragments (and their
weight) than does the doctor who removed them, huh? Pffttt.


>>> "Then there's the fragment lodged against JBC's left femur, which remains in his body to this day. Seen on X ray, it could very well be larger than the missing portion of CE 399." <<<

That must be why Dr. Gregory said this to the WC:

"A fragment of metal, again microscopic, measuring about five-tenths of
a millimeter by two millimeters, lies just beneath the skin, about a

half-inch on the medial aspect of the thigh. .... This again would be


in micrograms, postage stamp weight thereabouts. Not much more than

that." -- DR. C.F. GREGORY

~~~~~

CTers haven't a leg (or a bullet fragment) to stand on in this regard.
The "Too Many Fragments Were In Connally" myth has persisted long
enough. And it's just flat-out ridiculous. And dead-wrong.

curtj...@hotmail.com

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Jan 8, 2007, 7:36:57 PM1/8/07
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There are a lot of things Jeff. The average shots are going to lose
around .7 grams in the barrell as the bullet leaves. Didn't seem to
want to deal in real statistics. Even when a lot of the docs were
coached as obvious evolution of testimony showed, they still couldn't
put the fragments in any organizational or logical way as coming from
CE 399. That showed in their 'off the record' episodes with Specter.
Also, how is one of the strongest, densist bones in the body which was
broken completely not going to show considerable bullet damage?

CJ

lazu...@webtv.net

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Jan 9, 2007, 4:09:48 PM1/9/07
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The Xray of JBC's thigh shows the bullet fragment close to the femur a
couple inches into muscle and fascia, not just "under the skin". If it
were truly that close to the surface, why wasn't it removed?
Why would Audrey Bell lie about having about five fragments in her hand?
She mistook two for five? And she grossly exaggerated the size when she
distinctly said "size of a match-head"? I don't see how she could have
been that mistaken.

lazu...@webtv.net

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Jan 9, 2007, 4:15:29 PM1/9/07
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I find it amusing that you nutters will fall over isolated statements by
one of the Parkland doctors, such as Dr. Gregory in this instance, when
it suits your LN fancies, but when the vast majority of Parkland medicos
state there was a large, avulsive posterior headwound in JFK, these same
doctors suddenly become a bunch of incompetent kooks.

curtj...@hotmail.com

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Jan 10, 2007, 12:05:28 PM1/10/07
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Why in the SBT does a bullet seem to behave so oddly that it acts like
a full metal jacketed one through JFK, and then have the tendenices of
a frangible bullet when it gets to JBC?

CJ

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