Friends and Family with BT: I have been ripped off.
Tristán White
could help me I would be delighted.
I was always under the impression that if you don't inform BT of your
Friends & Family (10% discount) numbers and "Best Friend" (20% discount), it
was simply worked out by computer. They worked out the 10 most used numbers,
the most used International, and the "Best Friend"... all automatically.
At least, years ago when I joined BT, I got a letter to this effect, listing
my most used numbers, saying that if they did not hear to the contrary,
those numbers would be used. Basically, they used the most common numbers.
I then left BT as I was living with a family member. When my wife and I
bought our house in 1998 we rejoined BT. I foolishly assumed that BT had
chosen the Friends and Family numbers again automatically as, on the bill,
there was always a "Discount/Benefit" section where it would say "Your call
allowance of up to Ł5.40 includes local, national, international, etc.. "
which I assumed included F&F, Best Friend, etc. Especially as on the front
of the bills it would say "BT Standard: Your benefits include 10% discount
with Friends & Family, 20% discount on your BestFriend".
Fairly obvious assumption, surely.
So every quarter, my bill would be between Ł140 and Ł180 and they'd take off
between Ł4 and Ł5 worth of "Your Benefits" or "Your Allowances" or
occasionally "Your Call Discounts/Allowances".
Anyway, between October and January I worked a lot from home, so was
connected to the Internet (a local rate 0845 number) for 269 hours 30
minutes (a total of 262 calls) rather than usual the Internet at work as I
usually do. I was under the impression, and who can blame me, that Friends &
Family / Best Friend etc was set up.
I got my bill. Sweet Lord, it was Ł498.48 (the Internet bit for just an
ordinary 56K modem dial-up came to Ł359.17 before tax, ie. Ł421.83 including
tax). But I was expecting it to be big.
But I was also expecting the discount to be big. No, it was not!! It was
Ł5.34. I then realised that "Your benefits" does not mean Friends & Family
/ BestFriend, even though on the front of the bill it always says that "Your
benefits include 10% discount with F&F, 20% discount on BestFriend, etc
etc".
Basically, this is a lie. It doesn't include it as it was not set up. They
could easily have said, if they really wanted to give good value service, on
the bill, that unless you sort out the numbers yourself, Your Benefits do
NOT include F&F, BestFriend, etc. Or at least it could say something along
the lines of, Did you know your Friends & Family / BestFriend are not set up
yet?? But no: in a way to fleece you as much as possible, they hide these
facts under mentions of Your Benefits, Your Allowances, Your Discounts....
and then even on the front have the audacity to say that Your Benefits
includes 10%..... blah blah blah. What they don't say is that it is 10% and
20% of Ł0.00.
It was only getting this huge bill, and seeing the same discount as before,
that I copped on to the fact that it is no longer automatic. How much money
have I lost?!?! I've paid an extra Ł84.36 (incl.of tax) for the BestFriend
Internet account ALONE. This coupled with International, plus the calls to
my wife's mobile, and we would be looking at at LEAST Ł100 off the last
bill. As for the previous 2-3 years, well my god, some of those bills were
over Ł200, particularly when my wife was phoning Ireland a lot. And my
Internet bill is always Ł45+.
I reckon I'm owed by BT maybe as much as Ł500 over the period, and this is
because of LOYALTY to them. I came to them at a time when other companies
were offering other deals. No, I'd stick with BT.
Had it not been for the fact that this bill was so big that I realised that
the discount was unchanged, I would still be without Friends & Family.
PLEASE HELP/ADVISE. As you will see from the scan, it's very very unclear.
Thank you.
TRISTÁN
Does anyone
My wife, who rings Ireland a lot, spends sometimes Ł50 or more a bill on
calls to Ireland. And my 0845 Internet account is not amongst the excluded
numbers for BestFriend.
I rang up BT, got through the various automated bits, and finally got
through to a human being, who lost my call immediately (hung up on me before
answering). So sent a cheque off for the full amount of Ł498.48 (rather than
quibble beforehand... at least it shows responsibility) and went on to the
automated service to tell it that I had paid my bill.
I then redialled, got through to a girl, who said yes, my BestFriend number
is indeed the 0845 number but it's not activated. She also rattled off the
most dialled international and mobile number, and this took her a second, no
more. It WAS AUTOMATIC but I hadn't activated it! Well blow me down and slap
my face with a codpiece, if I am looking for value for money from BT I would
assume that it was automatic, like before, having not seen any adverts or
received any information to the contrary. Oh Mr White, she says, we can't
contact all 25 million of our customers, it's just tough luck I'm
sorry....... SORRY!! I'll give you sorry!! This is hundreds of pounds
we're talking about. I ask her why it's not automatic. Oh no Mr White, you
may have been calling your plumber a lot over one period and that would have
meant you'd always have your plumber down as your best friend Mr White and
you may never need to ring him again see? we want to give the best service
to all our customers bla bla blah feckin bla
Best service???? If they want to give the best service, they should NOT
pretend on the bill that they are already including Friends & Family and
BestFriend. Which they do!! I have scanned in the front of the latest bill
on http://www.rcslt.org/tw/bt.jpg (have blacked out my number and some
personal writing).
The girl went on Well Mr White it's now switched on and you've saved a lot
of money on your bill...
my heart lifted
Really?
But no, she was referring to the current bill, which is currently at Ł50 or
so, which will be paid for in a couple of months. What about the last bill?
Because that's the biggie! This one will be Ł140-Ł180 like the old ones....
No, she said, she can't do that.... (best service MY ARSE!!)
She told me she didn't have the authorisation to do it and that she would
have to put me through to Bill Payments or something, as only they have the
authorisation. So I said fine, and the put me on hold and lost me
immediately.
So back to the automated service, got through to a guy this time, went
through the whole spiel and he couldn't have been old enough to remember BT
ever automatically assigning Friends & Family (sheesh it wasn't that long
ago) but told me I had to go through to Billing again.
This time I did get through to someone, she then said she'd have to put me
on hold, my heart sank but it was too late, the words CLEARED had already
appeared on the LCD display. Yep, she'd lost me.
So basically, what can I do?? My last bill, assuming F&F had indeed been
switched on, would have been loads less.
Peter Kirby
Trista...@rocketmail.com says...
> A bit of a shock! And I need some advice. If any of you have any ideas that
> could help me I would be delighted.
As I remember it, they were really promoting F&F big-time when it was a
new thing. They used to ring me up every other month 'suggesting' better
combinations of numbers they could setup for me. However I am certain
this was just a hand-holding phase to get everyone used to the new
system.
I now frequently change mine via the website. I think you are going to
have to write this one off (although you could be right about the
situation I'll not say for certain). Just set yourself up on the BT
website. It has a little feature to tell you your most used numbers
(upto now or maybe the last billing phase) however it does not mind-read
so if you are planning on using a particular number a lot - then you
need to change F&F prior to using it.
If it's any consolation.. My bill is Ł550 SO FAR! (billing phase lasts
till next month).. And Only a small chunk is gonna be work.
/ME wonders if you can get a mortgage for a phone bill.
tanya
> have to write this one off (although you could be right about the
> situation I'll not say for certain). Just set yourself up on the BT
> website. It has a little feature to tell you your most used numbers
> (upto now or maybe the last billing phase) however it does not mind-read
> so if you are planning on using a particular number a lot - then you
> need to change F&F prior to using it.
>
> till next month).. And Only a small chunk is gonna be work.
>
Have you tried writing to Watchdog? THis is the sort of thing they would
love to sink their teeth into
Dave
Tristán White <Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:a3p1pn$19069d$1...@ID-47752.news.dfncis.de...
> A bit of a shock! And I need some advice. If any of you have any ideas
that
> could help me I would be delighted.
As it stands, all friends and family numbers must be nominated to attain
discount. The only exception is BT Working Together (BTWT), whereby you can
elect to have F&F numbers nominated on a quarterly basis (called F&F Gold
Manager - note, only available to people on BTWT - you can't pay a separate
fee for it). Additionally, call allowances are a separate discount product
to F&F.
I've had the same argument with BT before, and the basic response was 'we
print the numbers on your bill, the onus is on you to check it'. Just
because you didn't bother looking at the rest of the bill, you can't say
that they're lying. They haven't done anything wrong because you've
incorrectly assumed something. Looking on the BT web page, it says (for best
friend):
"Everyone has someone they call more than anyone else, nominate their number
as your BestFriend number and you will save 20% on every direct dialled UK
call you make to that special person's number."
Notice the word 'nominate'.
As a sidepoint, BT cannot make payments to prevent you from taking your
business elsewhere - Oftel & DTI do audit, and if BT breach their licence in
this manner (unfair trading) I believe that they can be fined up to 10% of
worldwide profits (before tax!).
As other people have mentioned, if you're spending that much on Internet
calls, get some sort of unmetered access, or ADSL if you can(!).
Dave
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
ta...@spamegg.scnproperties.com "tanya" writes:
Why? The guy was fuckwitted enough to make assumptions about how F&F
works, was hopeless wrong, and got stung.
(Oh, and you're not replying to the original punter, but to someone else
who DOES know how the system works, and is [not un]happy with having a
GBP500 bill; I suggest you learn to use a newsreader so that you reply to
the relevant poster.)
Many MANY people complained that BT were selecting numbers for F&F that
were not those most advantageous to the customer[1]: whilst some other
telco's schemes have automatically used the best discount method, with BT
it has ALWAYS been the customer's responsibility to choose the numbers
that THEY want to be considered for the discounts.
Therefore BT will now wait for the instruction from the customer. The
discount that has been showing on this bill is that for the line rental
scheme that this user has. He needs to learn to read the BT PriceList,
available on-line, which is THE definitive statement of costs and
discounts.
All the same, he would have been MUCH better off with an ISP that gives
24/7 service for some flat-rate.
[1] This was particularly true when 0845 numbers were in their infancy,
since many customers (and not a few BT staff) were under the impression
that 0845 numbers were not eligible for F&F (or BF). They are, and most
Internet users have had one such as their Best Friend (sad, innit?) for
some time. It used to be better still when Premier Line still existed:
35% discount on all my calls to Demon for GBP24/year.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} b...@dsl.co.uk
"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of
distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr-
easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs
Trouser Trout
<Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
<big snip>
>
>But I was also expecting the discount to be big. No, it was not!! It was
>£5.34. I then realised that "Your benefits" does not mean Friends & Family
>/ BestFriend, even though on the front of the bill it always says that "Your
>benefits include 10% discount with F&F, 20% discount on BestFriend, etc
>etc".
>
>
Interesting, I heard there was a rat's foot stuck in one of BT's
billing computers.
James Keeley
"Tristán White" <Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:a3p1pn$19069d$1...@ID-47752.news.dfncis.de...
that
> could help me I would be delighted.
>
> I was always under the impression that if you don't inform BT of your
> Friends & Family (10% discount) numbers and "Best Friend" (20% discount),
it
> was simply worked out by computer. They worked out the 10 most used
numbers,
> the most used International, and the "Best Friend"... all automatically.
>
> At least, years ago when I joined BT, I got a letter to this effect,
listing
> my most used numbers, saying that if they did not hear to the contrary,
> those numbers would be used. Basically, they used the most common numbers.
>
> I then left BT as I was living with a family member. When my wife and I
> bought our house in 1998 we rejoined BT. I foolishly assumed that BT had
> chosen the Friends and Family numbers again automatically as, on the bill,
> there was always a "Discount/Benefit" section where it would say "Your
call
> which I assumed included F&F, Best Friend, etc. Especially as on the front
> of the bills it would say "BT Standard: Your benefits include 10% discount
> with Friends & Family, 20% discount on your BestFriend".
>
> Fairly obvious assumption, surely.
>
off
> between £4 and £5 worth of "Your Benefits" or "Your Allowances" or
> occasionally "Your Call Discounts/Allowances".
>
> Anyway, between October and January I worked a lot from home, so was
> connected to the Internet (a local rate 0845 number) for 269 hours 30
> minutes (a total of 262 calls) rather than usual the Internet at work as I
> usually do. I was under the impression, and who can blame me, that Friends
&
> Family / Best Friend etc was set up.
>
> ordinary 56K modem dial-up came to £359.17 before tax, ie. £421.83
including
> tax). But I was expecting it to be big.
>
> But I was also expecting the discount to be big. No, it was not!! It was
Family
> / BestFriend, even though on the front of the bill it always says that
"Your
> benefits include 10% discount with F&F, 20% discount on BestFriend, etc
> etc".
>
> Basically, this is a lie. It doesn't include it as it was not set up. They
> could easily have said, if they really wanted to give good value service,
on
> the bill, that unless you sort out the numbers yourself, Your Benefits do
> NOT include F&F, BestFriend, etc. Or at least it could say something
along
> the lines of, Did you know your Friends & Family / BestFriend are not set
up
> yet?? But no: in a way to fleece you as much as possible, they hide these
> facts under mentions of Your Benefits, Your Allowances, Your Discounts....
> and then even on the front have the audacity to say that Your Benefits
> includes 10%..... blah blah blah. What they don't say is that it is 10%
and
>
> It was only getting this huge bill, and seeing the same discount as
before,
> that I copped on to the fact that it is no longer automatic. How much
money
> Internet account ALONE. This coupled with International, plus the calls to
> bill. As for the previous 2-3 years, well my god, some of those bills were
> Internet bill is always £45+.
>
> I reckon I'm owed by BT maybe as much as £500 over the period, and this is
> because of LOYALTY to them. I came to them at a time when other companies
> were offering other deals. No, I'd stick with BT.
>
> Had it not been for the fact that this bill was so big that I realised
that
> the discount was unchanged, I would still be without Friends & Family.
>
> PLEASE HELP/ADVISE. As you will see from the scan, it's very very unclear.
>
> Thank you.
>
> TRISTÁN
>
> Does anyone
>
> calls to Ireland. And my 0845 Internet account is not amongst the excluded
> numbers for BestFriend.
>
> I rang up BT, got through the various automated bits, and finally got
> through to a human being, who lost my call immediately (hung up on me
before
or
> so, which will be paid for in a couple of months. What about the last
bill?
ones....
>
> No, she said, she can't do that.... (best service MY ARSE!!)
>
> She told me she didn't have the authorisation to do it and that she would
> have to put me through to Bill Payments or something, as only they have
the
> authorisation. So I said fine, and the put me on hold and lost me
> immediately.
>
> So back to the automated service, got through to a guy this time, went
> through the whole spiel and he couldn't have been old enough to remember
BT
> ever automatically assigning Friends & Family (sheesh it wasn't that long
> ago) but told me I had to go through to Billing again.
>
> This time I did get through to someone, she then said she'd have to put me
> on hold, my heart sank but it was too late, the words CLEARED had already
> appeared on the LCD display. Yep, she'd lost me.
>
> So basically, what can I do?? My last bill, assuming F&F had indeed been
> switched on, would have been loads less.
>
>
Good luck. I had a similar issue with BT and the amount of time put into
being put on hold, etc. wasn't worth the effort.
Have you considered using an all-inclusive flat-rate dial-up for your ISP?
Alex Monro
> A bit of a shock! And I need some advice. If any of you have any ideas
> that could help me I would be delighted.
>
> I was always under the impression that if you don't inform BT of your
> Friends & Family (10% discount) numbers and "Best Friend" (20% discount),
> it was simply worked out by computer. They worked out the 10 most used
> numbers, the most used International, and the "Best Friend"... all
> automatically.
>
> At least, years ago when I joined BT, I got a letter to this effect,
> listing my most used numbers, saying that if they did not hear to the
> contrary, those numbers would be used. Basically, they used the most
> common numbers.
>
Yes. I had that a few years ago when I was with BT. ISTR that the numbers
they suggested didn't seem to bear that much relation to the numbers I'd
been calling though.
The fact that since then they've extended their marketing confusopoly
even more is the main reason I'm now with Eurobell (Telewest). If cable
is an option in your area, you could introduce that possibility into
the dispute negotiations (although if your cable franchise is held by NTL
it might be a frying-pan -> fire move). You'll probably have to escalate
the complaint to management level to get anywhere.
The only other advice I have is 20:20 hindsight (always read the small
print, a verbal contract aint worth the paper it's written on, check
everything,... etc.) but you've probably been telling yourself all that
already... :-/
--
Alex Monro, Exeter, UK The difference between Politicians
alexm at pobox dot com and Journalists is that Politicians
Running on GNU/Linux (SuSE 7.3) usually know when they're lying.
Tristán White
<SNIP>
>Good luck. I had a similar issue with BT and the amount of time put into
>being put on hold, etc. wasn't worth the effort.
>Have you considered using an all-inclusive flat-rate dial-up for your ISP?
Yes. Do you recommend a good one, that is free 0800 (or flat-rate) and which
I can change before a year is out if I am not happy (a friend joined an ISP,
cancelled after a month because he was not happy with the Usenet service,
and was still billed as he'd signed a contract). I'd rather pay £15 or so a
month and have unmetered ISP.
>Kat<
<Trista...@rocketmail.com> writes
I've just been offered a really good deal for Freeserve Broadband...
does anyone have any experience of the service?
--
>Kat< Lettin' the cat outta the bag,
is a whole lot easier than puttin' it back.
Tristán White
>Why? The guy was fuckwitted enough to make assumptions about how F&F
>works, was hopeless wrong, and got stung.
Ah the wonders of 20/20 hindsight. Yes, now I feel foolish. But I am not a
telecommunications professional, all I know is that I was confused by the
previous bills' and their mentions of Discounts. As you can see from the
scan on http://www.rcslt.org/tw/bt.jpg (have blacked out my number and some
personal writing), a lay person (especially as it used to be automatic in
the past) would assume that I am already getting the F&F/BestFriend
discounts. I don't know where you work but I guess you may be in the biz
yourself. I'm not, I'm just a punter. And if I get ripped off (and being
someone fairly clued up in IT although not being clued up at all in
telecommunications) then imagine how many other people in the country are
being ripped off too. I am sure, for example, that my 85 year old auntie has
not realised this! and she can't go onto the Internet to read about BT's
policies as she has no computer and is housebound. I'll let her know
tonight.
<SNIP>
>Many MANY people complained that BT were selecting numbers for F&F that
>were not those most advantageous to the customer[1]: whilst some other
>telco's schemes have automatically used the best discount method, with BT
>it has ALWAYS been the customer's responsibility to choose the numbers
>that THEY want to be considered for the discounts.
No, I am sure you are wrong. They USED to, years ago, automatically select
the most used numbers. Now it seems they do not do this, but I am 99% sure
that, 5 or 6 years ago when the scheme started, the numbers were chosen
automatically and it was the customer's responsibility to CHANGE them.
I understand what you're saying, Brian, but if a BT customer has not got
F&F/BF activated/switched-on, then surely it is "most advantageous to the
customer" for BT to choose what BT considers to be the most used numbers
(and wait for the customer to choose them) than for the customer to receive
no discount at all. You cannot say that BT decided to stop automatically
choosing what it thinks are the customer's most used numbers OUT OF
CONSIDERATION FOR THE CUSTOMER. It is surely out of consideration for their
maximum profits, because they are relying on punters like myself not
realising the system has changed, making their bills (for the layperson)
confusing and ambiguous by continuing to mention (see scan) that "Your
benefits" include F&F/BestFriend and list a discount under "Your benefits"
on the bill.
>Therefore BT will now wait for the instruction from the customer. The
>discount that has been showing on this bill is that for the line rental
>scheme that this user has. He needs to learn to read the BT PriceList,
>available on-line, which is THE definitive statement of costs and
>discounts.
Yes, I guess I should. But is this good customer practice? How would I have
known this? Why did they not put it on the bill, something like "Please note
that you have not activated F&F/BestFriend yet". Why not? Well because they
want to make as much money as possible, and take advantage of the
absentmindedness of people like myself. I did not feel it was necessary to
read the online PriceList as I thought I was getting the discount already.
And what about people like my auntie? Must she go online too?
You're clearly someone in the "know", perhaps you even work in the telco
field. But I am not and I was misled by ambiguity. And you cannot say that
BT, in the interest of THEIR customers (as opposed to THEIR coffers),
de-activated automated F&F/BestFriend numberchoosing. Most customers would
prefer to receive a discount on the wrong numbers than on no numbers at
all!! Then all they need to do is to change the numbers to the right ones
and tell BT that they don't want it to be automated.
>All the same, he would have been MUCH better off with an ISP that gives
>24/7 service for some flat-rate.
<SNIP>
Yes, I agree. Any recommendations appreciated.
Dave Newt
> I foolishly assumed that BT had
> chosen the Friends and Family numbers again automatically
> Fairly obvious assumption, surely.
I wouldn't have assumed it :-(
> Anyway, between October and January I worked a lot from home, so was
> connected to the Internet (a local rate 0845 number) for 269 hours 30
> minutes (a total of 262 calls) rather than usual the Internet at work as I
> usually do.
Why on earth didn't you set up a Ł12.99/month 24/7 access?
[rest snipped]
Sorry, I'd comment a bit more, but I've got stuff to do.
Good luck, mate... but I don't feel hopeful (and not sure you've been
ripped off at all :-( )
Dave
--
Dave Newt
JUST SAY NO TO RICH TEXT/HTML EMAILS
>Kat<
<$news$@kat22.clara.co.uk> writes
>I've just been offered a really good deal for Freeserve Broadband...
>does anyone have any experience of the service?
Thanks Peter :-)
Have emailed you but not sure if you'll get the reply.
--
>Kat< Think the unthinkable...
Do the undoable...
Eff the ineffable!
phil henry
<Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote in message <101295...@dsl.co.uk>...
>>Why? The guy was fuckwitted enough to make assumptions about how F&F
>>works, was hopeless wrong, and got stung.
>
>
>Ah the wonders of 20/20 hindsight. Yes, now I feel foolish. But I am not a
>telecommunications professional, all I know is that I was confused by the
>previous bills' and their mentions of Discounts. As you can see from the
>scan on http://www.rcslt.org/tw/bt.jpg (have blacked out my number and some
>personal writing), a lay person (especially as it used to be automatic in
>the past) would assume that I am already getting the F&F/BestFriend
>discounts.
It was never automatic. When BT used direct marketing to entice
people to join F&F it produced a suggested list based on a previous
bill (usually well out of date). I beleive that it alowed the customer
to have that list implemented (by returning the form)
[..]
>No, I am sure you are wrong. They USED to, years ago, automatically select
>the most used numbers. Now it seems they do not do this, but I am 99% sure
>that, 5 or 6 years ago when the scheme started, the numbers were chosen
>automatically and it was the customer's responsibility to CHANGE them.
Why would a customer change them if the system was automatically
giving best value ?
The latest Update bill stuffer includes in "Important Information"
under the "Friends and Family" entry:
"The BestFriend number can be changed once in any month
or quarterly billing period."
Why would that be included if it was done automatically ?
phil henry
<Trista...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
[..]
>I then left BT as I was living with a family member. When my wife and I
>bought our house in 1998 we rejoined BT. I foolishly assumed that BT had
>chosen the Friends and Family numbers again automatically as, on the bill,
>there was always a "Discount/Benefit" section where it would say "Your call
>which I assumed included F&F, Best Friend, etc. Especially as on the front
>of the bills it would say "BT Standard: Your benefits include 10% discount
>with Friends & Family, 20% discount on your BestFriend".
Features of the call package.
>Fairly obvious assumption, surely.
>
>So every quarter, my bill would be between £140 and £180 and they'd take off
>between £4 and £5 worth of "Your Benefits" or "Your Allowances" or
>occasionally "Your Call Discounts/Allowances".
And listed the discounts (zero) against your F&F ? Or was there no
section on the bill for F&F because you hadn't signed up ?
David Wood
I've made huge snips here as I'm looking towards the future, rather than
the past. Others have made many of these suggestions - I hope this is a
coherent overview for you.
In message <a3p1pn$19069d$1...@ID-47752.news.dfncis.de>, Tristán White
<Trista...@rocketmail.com> writes
>I was always under the impression that if you don't inform BT of your
>Friends & Family (10% discount) numbers and "Best Friend" (20% discount), it
>was simply worked out by computer. They worked out the 10 most used numbers,
>the most used International, and the "Best Friend"... all automatically.
As other have said, they tried this for a while in that you could tell
the BT Internet site to pick your most called numbers. It was a
nightmare, as it often picked numbers you called once on your last bill
and never again.
>Anyway, between October and January I worked a lot from home, so was
>connected to the Internet (a local rate 0845 number) for 269 hours 30
>minutes (a total of 262 calls) rather than usual the Internet at work as I
>usually do.
Time for a flat rate ISP - though beware that you're a relatively high
user (though I've managed far more than that in a month with Demon).
About the only 24/7 unmetered ISP that will cope unblinkingly with very
heavy use is Demon (that's GBP20/month to Demon for Premier Connect Plus
and GBP20/month to BT for SurfTime Anytime - you must sign up for both
separately with the respective companies). However Demon have had a lot
of problems recently and really can't be recommended right now.
To be honest, if you can get them, consider ADSL or a cable modem
(uk.telecom.broadband is your friend here).
If you can't, consider changing your analogue line for Home Highway to
get ISDN speeds (around 7.4KBytes/second and call setup when calling the
Internet of less than 2 seconds) and an extra 'line' for not much more
than the price of two POTS lines.
Then look for an unmetered ISP. At your usage level, Freeserve may be a
possibility as may Clara - both are around GBP15/month. For high usage,
Demon (GBP40/month) if they fix their systems, or possibly Pipex. Pipex
is extremely expensive for their top notch dial up services though.
I used Demon on the 40/month deal with Home Highway - I now have a ntl:
cable modem.
>My wife, who rings Ireland a lot, spends sometimes £50 or more a bill on
>calls to Ireland.
At this kind of call bill, surely you'd be better off on one of the BT
Together deals (though exclude your ISP from your calculations as you
should go onto an unmetered deal if ADSL or a cable modem aren't a
possibility).
To that end, go to <http://www.bt.com> and find the Residential Billing
section. Get yourself signed up for enhanced access to your account
(free), and you can then display old bills by numbers called and so on.
You can even enter numbers into your 'Personal Address Book' so that you
can display your bills with your common numbers as names.
Also consider monthly bills - it allows you to keep a much closer eye on
what is happening.
Look at the BT Together deals at <http://www.bt.com/together>. If you
switch to any BT Together deal, the VAT inclusive prices for the
Republic of Ireland from the UK mainland are (rounding slightly):
14p/minute daytime
9p/minute evenings and weekends.
You can lop off a further 10% on numbers on Friends and Family.
You can do much better than that for Ireland. Though I haven't tried
them yet, the Post Office do a pre-pay indirect access deal with good
rates for International calls.
I wouldn't install their equipment on my line - it would send to send
all UK national rate calls over their service. If you stick just GBP10
in, you get access to their service from your BT line by dialling 1466
in front of your International number - just change your phone memories
accordingly. You can even have a direct debit that tops your account up
by a preset amount when your remaining balance reaches GBP5.
Ireland is 5p/minute any time with the Post Office deal. You may be able
to do even better than that - see
<http://www.magsys.co.uk/telecom/index.shtml> for details of lots of
residential telcos.
The Post Office deal looks to be a relatively no bother proposition,
though - no standing charge, no bills (though access to your call
history online) - they even promise a refund of your unused balance if
you stop using them. As I see it, trying them will cost you no more than
a tenner even if you find it totally unusable and you can't get your
money back.
If you're interested in the Post Office deal, go to
<http://www.postoffice.co.uk/networkbanking/default.jsp?doc=phone_info>,
click "Phone Services", then "Post Office Pay As You Go Home Phone
Service..."
>And my 0845 Internet account is not amongst the excluded
>numbers for BestFriend.
Yes - but don't use 0845 for that amount of Internet access!
I think you're stuffed for the previous bills - but you can do a lot
better for the future.
In summary:
* Find an unmetered ISP - at your kind of usage ADSL (plenty of
discussion about the best / cheapest providers in
uk.telecom.broadband) or a cable modem would probably make sense,
otherwise unmetered dial-up, possibly with a Home Highway line.
* Get yourself signed up for BT online billing with enhanced access, so
that you can look at your call patterns. Consider monthly billing to
keep a closer eye on what is happening. All this is free.
* In the light of your previous bills and your projected future usage,
use the BT web site to set your Friends and Family numbers correctly.
Again, this is free.
* Consider which, if any, of the BT Together packages would lower your
bills (don't worry too much about the Surf ones - there aren't many
ISPs still using SurfTime Evenings and Weekends, though you can use
it with Demon). Whilst still thinking, if you haven't already got it,
call BT *now* to request Call and Save is put on your account. This
is a free service that knocks 10% off your call charges once you go
through GBP25/month.
* Consider another telco for your International calls (including
Ireland). Whilst BT Together lowers your International call charges,
you can still beat those rates fairly easily if you shop around.
For definitive BT pricing information, the relevant sections you need to
be looking at are Section 3, Part 1
<http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/current/docs/Customer_Options/0037.htm>
for details of the various BT Together packages, Call and Save and
Friends and Family. (Much of the other stuff in that part is obsolete).
Section 2
<http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/current/docs/Call_Charges/sectoc.htm>,
Parts 1 and 2 for call charges if you don't have BT Together.
Section 1
<http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/current/docs/Exchange_Lines/sectoc.htm>,
Parts 2 (POTS) and 26 (Highway) for non-BT Together line rental.
If you're really bothered, Section 2, Part 4
<http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/current/docs/Call_Charges/0018.htm>
sub parts 1 and particularly 2 for Select Services.
I know it's a drag to do all the research, but if you know what is
possible, you can get a pretty good deal on phone calls these days.
I hope this helps,
David
--
David Wood
da...@wood2.org.uk
Trellick Tower
good service if you can cope with being disconnected every two hours and
reconnecting.
They give you a free months trial then its £12.99 a month. Cancel whenever
you like.
DJS
Tristán White
and useful stuff. One to print and pin up :-)
Incidentally, I've never even heard of "Call & Save"! All these little
things that one can do to save money.... which aren't advertised very
heavily!
I'll call BT tomorrow to set it up.
David Wood
In message <TxXIzjMI...@wood2.org.uk>, David Wood
<da...@wood2.org.uk> writes
>You can do much better than that for Ireland. Though I haven't tried
>them yet, the Post Office do a pre-pay indirect access deal with good
>rates for International calls.
I've signed up online this evening, putting in ten pounds on my credit
card, so we'll see how it goes. It looks as if it could be somewhere
between a week and a fortnight before I'm set up and ready to go.
>* Consider which, if any, of the BT Together packages would lower your
> bills (don't worry too much about the Surf ones - there aren't many
> ISPs still using SurfTime Evenings and Weekends, though you can use
> it with Demon). Whilst still thinking, if you haven't already got it,
> call BT *now* to request Call and Save is put on your account. This
> is a free service that knocks 10% off your call charges once you go
> through GBP25/month.
The Call and Save threshold is GBP25/quarter after VAT, not per month
(divide by three...). Call charges over the threshold are discounted by
10% - but if you don't pass the threshold it still costs you nothing.
Call and Save doesn't apply if you have various other schemes, including
any of the BT Together packages.
David Wood
<Trista...@rocketmail.com> writes
>Thank you, David Wood, for the outstandingly helpful e-mail, loads of facts
>and useful stuff. One to print and pin up :-)
My pleasure :-) I hope that it will serve as a help to others too in a
similar position.
I've just been through all this with the BT account here, as a
combination of my disabilities and a car crash I was involved in
December (not my fault - I got rear-ended whilst waiting at traffic
lights with my handbrake on) currently have me housebound, and I wanted
a cheap way of calling people I'm not able to go out and see. For me,
that was the pretty new BT Together - UK Calls option.
Most of my research was relevant to your position - it just took me a
little while to document it all.
>Incidentally, I've never even heard of "Call & Save"! All these little
>things that one can do to save money.... which aren't advertised very
>heavily!
>
>I'll call BT tomorrow to set it up.
See my update elsewhere in the thread - I'd slightly misdescribed it,
but if it's relevant to your account, then call BT and get it set up.
You can always remove it in favour of a BT Together package later.
For what it's worth, it is worth reading the little 'Update' bill
stuffer - it can contain some good information about saving money with
BT. Call and Save slipped into being very quietly around the time that
Premierline got canned.
Also, whilst it's not perfect, the online account management features
I'd mentioned as available at bt.com are extremely useful and are free.
Just one thing - don't sign up for the BT Together Online online
management option if you need paper bills for any reason, as one of the
consequences of that is that paper billing is ceased. I'm pretty sure
you can still get the 'enhanced' online billing without Together Online.
Cheers,
phil henry
wrote:
[..]
>For what it's worth, it is worth reading the little 'Update' bill
>stuffer - it can contain some good information about saving money with
>BT. Call and Save slipped into being very quietly around the time that
>Premierline got canned.
Call & Save launched January 1999.
New Annual PremierLine withdrawn October 1999
New Quarterly PremierLine withdrawn April 2000.
Existing PremierLine withdrawn November 2000 (allegedly).
However the Premierline entry in the BT Price List continues
to be updated. Are there refuseniks ?
Gareth Babb
> However the Premierline entry in the BT Price List continues
> to be updated. Are there refuseniks ?
Unsure how, we were never given an option to keep it - never mind an option
to not to refuse it, if you understand what I mean.
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Trista...@rocketmail.com "Tristán White" writes:
> Ah the wonders of 20/20 hindsight. Yes, now I feel foolish. But I am not a
> telecommunications professional, all I know is that I was confused by the
> previous bills' and their mentions of Discounts. As you can see from the
> scan on http://www.rcslt.org/tw/bt.jpg (have blacked out my number and some
> personal writing), a lay person (especially as it used to be automatic in
> the past) would assume that I am already getting the F&F/BestFriend
> discounts.
That's just part of the standard bill heading for those that aren't on
one of the Together schemes.
When you DO have your nominated numbers set up, there's a separate
section of the bill which lists how many calls you've made to each
number, how much it's cost, and how much your discount amounted to ON
THAT NUMBER.
IIRC, they've ALWAYS done this with F&F since the scheme was first
introduced: now you said that you'd (really) been on the scheme in the
past; do you not recall seeing such a section in your bill before, and
did you not think it odd that the section was absent from your other
bills (previous to the shocker)?
> I don't know where you work but I guess you may be in the biz
> yourself. I'm not, I'm just a punter.
Nope, I'm just a punter too: I teach in a university (and not telecoms
either, although I've had a long-standing interest in the subject).
> And if I get ripped off (and being
> someone fairly clued up in IT although not being clued up at all in
> telecommunications) then imagine how many other people in the country are
> being ripped off too. I am sure, for example, that my 85 year old auntie has
> not realised this! and she can't go onto the Internet to read about BT's
> policies as she has no computer and is housebound. I'll let her know
> tonight.
There is mention of the F&F and BF schemes occasionally in the bill
stuffer leaflet; I'm pretty sure that this has mentioned that one needs
to tell them what numbers you wish to nominate. I know that they've
advertised the 0800 interface for F&F in this manner.
> >Many MANY people complained that BT were selecting numbers for F&F that
> >were not those most advantageous to the customer[1]: whilst some other
> >telco's schemes have automatically used the best discount method, with BT
> >it has ALWAYS been the customer's responsibility to choose the numbers
> >that THEY want to be considered for the discounts.
>
> No, I am sure you are wrong. They USED to, years ago, automatically select
> the most used numbers.
No, YOU are wrong; they have NEVER done this (despite many people saying
"why can't BT give me the discount on the numbers I call each quarter
that would be most advantageous to me?").
> Now it seems they do not do this, but I am 99% sure
> that, 5 or 6 years ago when the scheme started, the numbers were chosen
> automatically and it was the customer's responsibility to CHANGE them.
What happened originally was that people were sent letters listing ten
numbers, and covering material saying "if you had nominated these
numbers, you would have received a discount of ##.##". The letter
originally required that you send it back, having ticked a box, for the
scheme to be set up with those numbers. Alternatively, you could cross
out some or all of their selection and insert your own (provided you
followed the rules) and send it back.
In the main, the lists were compiled from call data relating to a period
at least two quarters previous to the time of the offer. In many cases
this coincided with a period before the introduction of 0845 numbers for
ISPs, so the majority of net-aware customers received "suggestions" that
were totally wrong for their calling pattern. There were many complaints
at the time, not just in <news:uk.telecom> but in other newsgroups and
even the mainstream press. Others found that "the number of the plumber"
had been rung so many times in the qualifying period that it had been
included by BT, even though there was every likelihood that the customer
would never call that number again.
BT's reaction to this furore was to continue sending out such
suggestions, and to apply them automatically UNLESS the customer sent
back their own nominations. It's possibly this stage that you've been
remembering.
This sparked an even greater protest, so BT stopped suggesting anything
automatically at all, and certainly didn't apply anything automatically.
At the same time, they made the process of nominating numbers much
easier, through provision of both 0800 and web-based interfaces, as well
as the traditional live-person (who would argue, erroneously, that 0845
numbers were ineligible for the discount). The methods for doing this
have been mentioned at least twice a year in bill stuffers ever since.
> I understand what you're saying, Brian, but if a BT customer has not got
> F&F/BF activated/switched-on, then surely it is "most advantageous to the
> customer" for BT to choose what BT considers to be the most used numbers
> (and wait for the customer to choose them) than for the customer to receive
> no discount at all. You cannot say that BT decided to stop automatically
> choosing what it thinks are the customer's most used numbers OUT OF
> CONSIDERATION FOR THE CUSTOMER.
See above.
> >All the same, he would have been MUCH better off with an ISP that gives
> >24/7 service for some flat-rate.
> <SNIP>
>
> Yes, I agree. Any recommendations appreciated.
Well, I pay GBP11.75[1] to Demon as my ISP, and with that can dial a
g5-rate number at any time except the working day (08:00--18:00,
Mon-Fri); through paying a SEPARATE GBP5.99 to BT, all calls to that (or
any other, e.g. with another ISP) g5 number are discounted by 100%,
including the minimum call charge. My usage during the working day is
insufficient to justify paying additional fees to either Demon or BT,
although it is possible to get a TRUE 24/7 "free" connection to Demon ---
none of the crappy cut-offs after two hours that come with the other
companies. However, it's not cheap; GBP19.99 to Demon, and the same to
BT, each month.
AIUI, both Freeserve and AOL have some flat-rate schemes (although these
are subject to the two-hour cut-off, and have weaselly clauses about
possible termination of service for "excessive use"). These are
considerably cheaper than the forty quid that a 24/7 service through
Demon would cost.
[1] Actually, I pay double that, because I have a different form of
account including commercial webspace and my own domain.
Tristán White
<SNIP>
>> No, I am sure you are wrong. They USED to, years ago, automatically
select
>> the most used numbers.
>
>No, YOU are wrong; they have NEVER done this (despite many people saying
>"why can't BT give me the discount on the numbers I call each quarter
>that would be most advantageous to me?").
Thanks Brian. But surely you contradict yourself, and show that I am right,
when you say:
<SNIP>
>BT's reaction to this furore was to continue sending out such
>suggestions, and to apply them automatically UNLESS the customer sent
>back their own nominations. It's possibly this stage that you've been
>remembering.
LOL... I knew I wasn't going mad. Yes, that would have been the stage I was
remembering. Thanks though for the long answer, will probably follow your
advice re: the g5, whatever that is.
Incidentally, in reply to your question, "did you not think it odd that the
section was absent from your other blls (previous to the shocker)?", no I
didn't. Those bills change format quite often. As I said, I have three bills
in front of me, all fairly recent (ie within 2 years), where the discount I
mentioned is called "Your Benefits", "Call discounts" and "Call Allowances".
The last two bills look totally different to the one three quarters ago,
where instead of every call being itemised, they group them up by number. So
no, it didn't register that this was missing. Don't forget that I had a
period of living with a relative in between for a year, where I didn't
receive any bills.
Owain
news:101295...@dsl.co.uk...
| ... most Internet users have had one such as their Best Friend
| (sad, innit?) for some time.
Not as sad as having the office dial-in, geographic number, when one has a
full-time job, doesn't work from home, and the employer doesn't refund the
cost of the calls! Not me, but someone I knew.
Owain
Marc Cornelius
<dj.o...@btinternet.com> writes
[snip]
>business elsewhere - Oftel & DTI do audit, and if BT breach their
>licence in this manner (unfair trading) I believe that they can be
>fined up to 10% of worldwide profits (before tax!).
[snip]
Isn't it 10% of turnover?
--
Marc Cornelius
Marc Cornelius
<b...@dsl.co.uk> writes
[snip]
>Well, I pay GBP11.75[1] to Demon as my ISP, and with that can dial a
>g5-rate number at any time except the working day (08:00--18:00,
>Mon-Fri); through paying a SEPARATE GBP5.99 to BT, all calls to that
>(or any other, e.g. with another ISP) g5 number are discounted by 100%,
>including the minimum call charge. My usage during the working day is
[snip]
There's also a G4 number which can be used during the day.
--
Marc Cornelius
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Trista...@rocketmail.com "Tristán White" writes:
> Incidentally, in reply to your question, "did you not think it odd that the
> section was absent from your other blls (previous to the shocker)?", no I
> didn't. Those bills change format quite often. As I said, I have three bills
> in front of me, all fairly recent (ie within 2 years), where the discount I
> mentioned is called "Your Benefits", "Call discounts" and "Call Allowances".
> The last two bills look totally different to the one three quarters ago,
> where instead of every call being itemised, they group them up by number. So
> no, it didn't register that this was missing. Don't forget that I had a
> period of living with a relative in between for a year, where I didn't
> receive any bills.
That "grouping up" was announced in a bill stuffer last August (IIRC); if
you'd read it at the time, you would have seen that they were going to
change the bill in this fashion, and also had details of the 0800 number
and/or website that you could call to insist upon the traditional
fully-itemized bill. (Mine usually runs to a few dozen pages).
I *really* think that you might have benefitted from taking the time to
read that little "BT Update" leaflet that was included with each bill:
it DOES contain lots of useful information (and pointers to still more).
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
corn...@vercor.demon.co.uk "Marc Cornelius" writes:
Yep, which is what I use during the day (since my usage then is
insufficient to justify either of the 19.99 packages to get an even
cheaper service). I thought that I had mentioned this further up the
thread, where I remarked that it was enrolled as my Best Friend, and
hence daytime calls were costing me only 1.6p/min. [One can work out a
"break-even" point: having 24/7 service involves paying Demon & BT
19.99/month each; having off-peak SurfTime involves only 11.75 to Demon
and 5.99 to BT: an extra GBP22.24 a month. One can get 1390 minutes of
usage at 1.6p a minute for that cost, or 23 hours of daytime surfing.]
Sunil Sood
"David Wood" <da...@wood2.org.uk> wrote in message
news:1Hyhu+df...@wood2.org.uk...
> The Call and Save threshold is GBP25/quarter after VAT, not per month
> (divide by three...). Call charges over the threshold are discounted by
> 10% - but if you don't pass the threshold it still costs you nothing.
>
> Call and Save doesn't apply if you have various other schemes, including
> any of the BT Together packages.
Has anyone found any information on Call and Save on the bt.com web site?
None of the links I have found seem to work...
Regards
Sunil
phil henry
<ne...@soods.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
[..]
>Has anyone found any information on Call and Save on the bt.com web site?
http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/current/docs/Customer_Options/0037.htm