Jesus using the word "Muslim" in Luke 6:40:
Warhol
Let us look at Luke 6:40 from my N.I.V. Bible "A student is not above his teacher, but everyone
who is fully trained will be like his teacher."
Let us look at what Jesus said in Luke 6:40 in the language of Aramaic translated into Hebrew
as shown below:
"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo."
Taken from the Aramaic bible society.
Note: Aramaic and Hebrew are read from right to left, which is apposite to English.
Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM,
can be as his teacher."
Important Note: The Hebrew word "Mushlam" comes from the root "Sh L M". "Shalom" which comes
from the same root means "peace". The Arabic word "Muslim" comes from the root "S L M". "Salam"
means "peace". "Salem" means "safe". Also taken from the Aramaic bible society.
Now What
"Warhol" <War...@act.now> wrote in message
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Passerby
What a load of baloney!!!
MUSHLAM (root MEM SHIN LAMED) means "perfect" in Hebrew!!! it has no
connection to the word "MUSLEM" (root: MEM SAMEKH LAMED)!!!
"Warhol" <War...@act.now> wrote in message
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AnonMoos
> Let us look at Luke 6:40 from my N.I.V. Bible: "A student is not
> above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like
> his teacher." Let us look at what Jesus said in Luke 6:40 in the
> language of Aramaic translated into Hebrew as shown below: "Ein
> talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh
> k'rabbo."
That's nice, but the only evidence we actually have in our possession
is the GREEK, which reads "Ouk estin mathêtês huper ton didaskalon;
katêrtismenos de pas estai hôs ho disaskalos autou". Everything else
is a mere hypothetical speculative reconstruction, which is open to
debate and doubt.
Furthermore, Aramaic is not Hebrew, and Hebrew is not Aramaic. What
you quoted is an attempt at a Hebrew rendering of the passage (with
some obvious errors, such as "kal" for "kol").
> Taken from the Aramaic bible society.
Why did the "Aramaic bible society" produce a hypothetical speculative
reconstruction in Hebrew??
> Note: Aramaic and Hebrew are read from right to left, which is
> apposite to English.
You mean "opposite" (not that direction of writing has any relevance
in the first place).
> Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but
> everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."
Hebrew _mushlam_ means "perfect, accomplished" (this is a Hophal
participle which does not occur in the Bible as such, though there's a
single finite Hophal verb form in the bible at Job 5:23). The Hebrew
Hiphil/Hophal of ShLM has some general similarity in meaning to the
Greek verb _katartizô_, but it's far from clear that _mushlam_ would
be the best Hebrew word to translate the Greek participle
_katêrtismenos_, with its specialized meaning "highly trained" -- and
to then translate the Hebrew word _mushlam_ as "Muslim" would be
extremely anachronistic and inaccurate. In Arabic, _muslim_ doesn't
mean "highly trained", so why are you trying to connect the Greek word
_katêrtismenos_ (which does have that meaning) with Arabic _muslim_??
> The Hebrew word "Mushlam" comes from the root "Sh L M". " Shalom"
> which comes from the same root means "peace". The Arabic word
> "Muslim" comes from the root "S L M". "Salam" means "peace".
That's all true, but not of much relevance for the meaning of _muslim_
in Arabic.
In the Arabic language, the 1st and 3rd stems of SLM (_salama_ and
_saalama_) and words derived from them have the basic meanings of
"safe" and "peaceful", while the 2nd and 4th stems of SLM (_sallama_
and _'aslama_) have the meaning of "submission" -- and it's the 2nd
and 4th stems which specifically reference the Islamic religion. So
_'Islaam_ means "submission" and _muslim_ means "person who submits"
(from the 4th stem), while _salaam_ means "peace" and _musaalim_ means
"peaceful person" (from the 3rd stem). There's only one letter 'alif
different between _muslim_ and _musaalim_, but that single 'alif makes
quite a bit of difference in Arabic grammar!
--
Some Qur'an quotes: 5:20 qaala muusaa 5:21 "yaa qawmi ´dkhuluu ´l-'arDa
´l-muqaddasata ´llatii kataba ´llaahu lakum" 17:104 waqulnaa ... libanii
'israa'iila "´skunuu ´l-'arDa" || In English: Moses said, "My people,
go into the Holy Land which God has assigned to you!" And we said to the
Children of Israel, "Inhabit the land!" http://symbolictruth.fateback.com/
AnonMoos
> What a load of baloney!!! MUSHLAM (root MEM SHIN LAMED) means
> "perfect" in Hebrew!!! it has no connection to the word "MUSLEM"
> (root: MEM SAMEKH LAMED)!!!
Actually there is a remote etymological connection (one of
proto-Semitic "cognate correspondences"), but there's not too much
direct similarity in meaning in most cases. However, some people have
interpreted the word _tashlimeni_ in Isaiah 38:12-13 as meaning "you
cause me to submit".
Bill Jarrell
I don't know either Aramaic or Hebrew, but this seems like an
exercise in semantic spin.
Yissaskhar Ben-Tzion
I wish missionaries and (mis)interpreters would learn basic grammar.
> Let us look at Luke 6:40 from my N.I.V. Bible "A student is not above his > teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher."
Or in the original: "Ouk estin mathētēs uper ton didaskalon
katērtismenos de pas estai ōs didaskalos autou." Find me
Muslim in THAT?
>
> Let us look at what Jesus said in Luke 6:40 in the language of Aramaic
We have no idea what Jesus (casting his dubious existence aside) said
in Aramaic, since the Bible was originally written in GREEK!.
> translated into Hebrew
Wow, the translation of a translation (of what probably was not
original anyway) reads a word that sounds like Muslim.
> "Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo."
The grammatical equivalent of the Arabic verb Islam (verbal form IV of
the root s.l.m) would be: lhashlim (to complete, to make peace). This
differs greatly in meaning from the Arabic "Islam" which means: to
submit.
> Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone > that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."
Muslim: one who submits
Mushlam: it is completed (one who is completed), it is accomplished
(one who is accomplished)
***
The differences are also grammatic. "Mushlam" is a huf'al verb
formation which is the passive voice of the hif'il verb formation
(which does indeed correspond to the Arabic Form IV). The
corresponding word to "mushlam" in Arabic is "uslim" beginning with a
hamza-on-alif and NOT a mim.
The grammatical equivalent in Hebrew for "Muslim" would be "mashlim"
(one who completes, one who makes peace).
> Important Note: The Hebrew word "Mushlam" comes from the root "Sh L > M". "Shalom" which comes from the same root means "peace". The Arabic > word "Muslim" comes from the root "S L M". "Salam" means "peace". "Salem" > means "safe".
Comparative conjugation shows that Islam is not shalom:
"Islam" is the verbal noun for the Form IV construction of the root
s.l.m.
"Hashlamah" is the the verbal noun for the hif'il* construction of the
root sh.l.m.
Hashlamah (completion, making peace) is not the same thing as shalom
(peace).
-Yissaskhar
*note: the hif'il paradigm is considered to be the closest in Hebrew
grammar to the Arabic Form IV:
past: hif'il vs. af'al
present: maf'il vs. yuf'il
future: yaf'il vs. sayaf'il
imperative: haf'el vs. af'il
GuitarMan
"Warhol" <War...@act.now> wrote in message
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>
I guess the muslim terrorist don't believe in the bible or jesus?
AnonMoos
> The grammatical equivalent of the Arabic verb Islam (verbal form IV
> of the root s.l.m) would be: lhashlim (to complete, to make peace).
> This differs greatly in meaning from the Arabic "Islam" which means:
> to submit.
> Muslim: one who submits
> Mushlam: one who is completed, one who is accomplished
> The differences are also grammatic. "Mushlam" is a huf'al verb
> formation which is the passive voice of the hif'il verb formation
> (which does indeed correspond to the Arabic Form IV). The
> grammatical equivalent in Hebrew for "Muslim" would be "mashlim"
> (one who completes, one who makes peace). The corresponding word to
> "mushlam" in Arabic is "uslim" beginning with a hamza-on-alif and
> NOT a mim.
I was following you so far, but the tables in the back of my "Teach
Yourself Arabic" book say that the active participle of a strong verb
of stem IV is _muf'il_ and the passive participle of stem IV is
_muf'al_. _Uf`ila_ would be a finite passive verb, not a participle.
> Comparative conjugation shows that Islam is not shalom: "Islam" is
> the verbal noun for the Form IV construction of the root s.l.m.
> "Hashlamah" is the the verbal noun for the hif'il construction of
> the root sh.l.m. Hashlamah (completion, making peace) is not the
> same thing as shalom (peace)
--
Polybius
My guess is that Christ spoke in Greek more than anything else. All of the earliest writings about
Christ are in Greek...or a middle eastern version of Greek...then Latin...that's the facts...Hebrew and
Aramaic are more of a conjecture by linguists. Although there is some evidence of Aramaic in a passage
or two in the New Testament.
Yissaskhar Ben-Tzion
> tziy...@email.com (Yissaskhar Ben-Tzion) wrote:
>
> > The grammatical equivalent of the Arabic verb Islam (verbal form IV
> > of the root s.l.m) would be: lhashlim (to complete, to make peace).
> > This differs greatly in meaning from the Arabic "Islam" which means:
> > to submit.
>
> > Muslim: one who submits
> > Mushlam: one who is completed, one who is accomplished
>
> > The differences are also grammatic. "Mushlam" is a huf'al verb
> > formation which is the passive voice of the hif'il verb formation
> > (which does indeed correspond to the Arabic Form IV). The
> > grammatical equivalent in Hebrew for "Muslim" would be "mashlim"
> > (one who completes, one who makes peace). The corresponding word to
> > "mushlam" in Arabic is "uslim" beginning with a hamza-on-alif and
> > NOT a mim.
>
> I was following you so far, but the tables in the back of my "Teach
> Yourself Arabic" book say that the active participle of a strong verb
> of stem IV is _muf'il_ and the passive participle of stem IV is
> _muf'al_. _Uf`ila_ would be a finite passive verb, not a participle.
Whoa! You're absolutely right. My Arabic grammar is slipping... too
much talking and not enough reading.
-Yissaskhar
Bill Jarrell
Christ spoke Aramaic. The Gospels were written in Greek, but there are
Aramaic phrases in them.