Neurological Origins of NDEs & Mystical Experiences
The Mystic Fool
Question: "What are the causes and brain mechanisms involved in mystical
experiences?" This one has the beginnings of a real answer from
contemporary neuroscience. Below, I summarize information from my
neurological research utilizing excerpts from two books: (i)
"Neuropsychiatry, Neuropsychology, and Clinical Neuroscience" by Rhawn
Joseph, and (ii) "Is There Anybody Out There? The Fate of God in an
Accidental World" by Taner Edis.
Answer #1: (from Neuropsychiatry, Neuropsychology, and Clinical Neuroscience
by Rhawn Joseph – Williams & Wilkins Press, Second Edition, 1996)
(A) THE AMYGDALA AND EMOTION
The amygdala enables us to hear "sweet sounds", recall "bitter memories",
and determine if something is spiritually significant, sexually enticing, or
good to eat. The amygdala makes it possible to experience the spiritually
sublime, is concerned with the most basic animal emotions, and allows us to
store affective experiences in memory or even to reexperience them when
awake or during the course of a dream in the form of visual, auditory, or
religious/spiritual imagery. The amygdala also enables an individual to
experience emotions such as love and religious rapture, as well as the
ecstasy associated with orgasm via enkephalin secretion, and the dread and
terror associated with the unknown.
In fact, the amygdala, in conjunction with the hippocampus, contributed in
large part to the production of very sexual as well as bizarre, unusual, and
fearful mental phenomenon, including dissociative states, feelings of
depersonalization, and hallucinogenic and dreamlike recollections involving
threatening men, naked woken, sexual intercourse, religion, and the
experience of gods, demons, and ghosts.
(B) THE AMYGDALA, THE TEMPORAL LOBE, AND THE SOUL
Mystical states may be voluntarily or involuntarily induced and are
dependent upon the differential stimulation and deafferentation (i.e.,
cutting off the afferent nerve supply – with afferent nerves being nerves
that carry impulses from receptors to the central nervous system) of limbic
system nuclei, including the hypothalamus, hippocampus, and amygdala, as
well as the right frontal and right temporal lobe. Moreover, it appears
that these brain areas differentially contribute to non-mystical religious
and emotional experiences as well.
Interestingly, the hypothalamus is concerned with all rudimentary aspects of
emotion and controls the hormonal and related aspects of sexual activity
(again, including the capacity to experience orgasm and heroin-like highs
via enkephalin secretion). By contrast, it is the amygdala, in conjunction
with the temporal lobe and hippocampus, that enables a human being to have
religious, spiritual, and mystical experiences.
The amygdala, hippocampus, and temporal lobe are richly interconnected and
appear to act in concert in regard to mystical experience, including the
generation and experience of dream states and complex auditory and visual
hallucinations. Moreover, intense activation of the temporal lobe,
hippocampus, and amygdala has been reported to give rise to a host of
sexual, religious, and spiritual experiences; and CHRONIC HYPERSTIMULATION
can induce and individual to become hyper-religious or visualize ghosts,
demons, angels, and even God, as well as claim demonic and angelic
possession or the sensation of having left the body.
The amygdala and inferior temporal lobes are also highly involved in the
generation of feelings of intense sexual arousal, fear, or conversely,
rapture and euphoria – the latter being a consequence of the large
quantities of enkephalins being released and the high concentrations of
opiate receptors located throughout the amygdala. In response to pain,
stress, shock, fear, or terror, the amygdala and other limbic nuclei begin
to secrete high levels of opiates, which can induce a state of calmness as
well as analgesia and euphoria.
As noted, if these neurons are hyperactivated, such as occurs during dream
states, seizures, physical pain, terror, food deprivation, and social and
sensory isolation, and under LSD (which disinhibits the amygdala by blocking
serotonin ) an individual might infuse his perceptions with tremendous
religious and emotional feeling. Hence, under these conditions, the
individual may hallucinate and ordinary perceptions, objects, or people my
be regarded as spiritual in nature or endowed with special or religious
significance. Hence, the individual may come to believe the or she is
experiencing, through the one or more of the various sense modalities, God,
the gods, demons, angels and so on. In actuality, the individual is
hallucinating and is excessively emotionally/religiously aroused and/or
experiencing an enkephalin high among other thing.
(C) OBE’S, FEAR, & LIMBIC HYPERACTIVATION
The prospect of being terribly injured or killed in an auto accident,
fighting during wartime, and the like is often accompanied by feelings of
extreme fear. It is also not uncommon for individuals who experience
feelings of terror to report perceptual and hallucinogenic experiences,
including dissociation, depersonalization, and the splitting off of ego
functions such as that they feel as if they have separated from their bodies
and floated away or were on the ceiling looking down.
Feelings of fear and terror are mediated by the amygdala, whereas the
capacity to cognitively map, or visualize, one’s position and the position
of other objects and individual in visual-space is dependent on the
hippocampus. The hippocampus contains "place" neurons that are able to
encode one’s position and movement in space.
The hippocampus, therefore, can create a cognitive map of an individual’s
environment and his movements within it. Presumably, it is via the
hippocampus that individuals can visualize themselves as if looking at their
bodies from afar, and can remember, and thus "see" themselves, engaged in
certain actions, as if one were an outside witness. Moreover, under
conditions of hyperactivation, it appears that the hippocampus may create a
visual hallucination of that "cognitive map" such that the individual my
experience himself as outside his body, observing all that is occurring.
In fact, is has been repeatedly demonstrated that hyperactivation and/or
electrical stimulation of the amygdala-hippocampus-temporal lobe can cause
some individuals to report that they have left their bodies and are hovering
upon the ceiling staring down. In psychoanalytic terms, their ego and sense
of personal identity appears to split off from their body, such that they
may feel as if they are two different people, one watching, the other being
observed.
(D) LIMBIC SYSTEM HYPERACTIVATION, HALLUCINATIONS, AND NEAR DEATH
EXPERIENCES (NDE’S) – Excerpt from Susan Blackmore’s book "Dying to Live,"
then back to Rhawn Joseph.
(i) The Consistency Argument
The first argument for The After Life Hypothesis is The Consistency
Argument. This is that NDE’s are similar around the world and throughout
history. The only possible explanation for this, so the argument runs, is
that NDE’s are just what they appear to be – a journey through a real
tunnel to another world which awaits us after death. Consistency, it is
argued, amounts to evidence for an afterlife.
The consistency is certainly there. We have explored may different kinds of
NDEs and seen that, although no two are the same, there are consistent
patterns: the joy and peace; the tunnel; the light; the out-of-body
experience; the life review and the dissolution into timelessness; the
return to life and the changes it brings. The consistency is there but this
does NOT mean there is an afterlife.
The joy and peace are consistent because of the natural opiates (endorphins
and encephalins) released under
stress. The tunnel + light and noises are consistent because they depend
on the structure of the brain’s cortex and what happens to it when it is
deprived of oxygen or is affected by disinhibition and random activity. The
OBE [out-of-body experience] is consistent because it is the brain’s way of
dealing with a breakdown in the body image and model of reality. The life
review is consistent because the endorphins and encephalins cause random
activation and seizures in the temporal lobe and limbic system where
memories are organized. The same effect leads to the breakdown of time and
its relationship to self. And it is this dissolution of [the model of] self
that accounts for the mystical experiences and aftereffects.
NO Afterlife Hypothesis is required to account for the consistency of the
NDE across times, peoples and cultures. Indeed, The Dying Brain Hypothesis
accounts for it much better.
(ii) The Reality Argument
The second argument I call The Reality Argument. It is that NDE’s FEEL so
REAL that they must be what they appear to be, a real journey to the next
world.
By exploring the reasons why things seem real I have provided an alternative
interpretation. It is useful for us, as biological organisms, to separate
what is real from what is not. However, the distinction is largely
artificial. ALL we have is [the] model-building [capacity of the brain and
nervous system] and we call some models "real" and some "imaginary." The
most STABLE and PERSISTENT ones, like those based on the senses, we call
real. The ones that affect the limbic system in certain ways we feel as
"familiar" or "meaningful." Mostly this works well, but during the NDE it
leads us astray. Stable tunnel forms in the cortex seem real. An
out-of-body perspective taken on in imagination seems real. So the felt
"realness" of the NDE’s is NO evidence that there is anyone to travel out of
the body or any next world to go to. The Dying Brain Hypothesis thus
accounts better for why the experience seems so real and can also account
for why obviously "unreal" things are seen in NDE’s as well.
(iii) The Paranormal Argument
Third comes The Paranormal Argument. That is that NDE’s involve paranormal
events which cannot be explained by science. Since they cannot be explained
in any normal way they must be evidence that the NDE involves another
dimension, another world, or the existence of a non-material spirit or soul.
This is NOT a good argument for The Afterlife Hypothesis for two reasons.
Firstly, I have cast considerable doubt on the evidence itself. Many cases
are simply very weak to start with, others become weaker the deeper you look
into them and some have even been INVENTED altogether. Secondly, even if
the evidence were compelling, it could NOT be explained just by claiming
that "There is an afterlife." If the evidence changes in the future and
truly convincing paranormal events are documented then certainly the theory
I have proposed will have to be overthrown – along with a lot more of
psychology, physics and biology – BUT THE AFTERLIFE THEORIES WE HAVE
ENCOUNTERED HERE WILL NOT DO INSTEAD.
By contrast, The Dying Brain Hypothesis explains why people seek paranormal
evidence to bolster their impression of realness and how the stories are
passed on and elaborated. By understanding the role of the limbic system
and temporal lobe it accounts for the experiences of familiarity, insight
and "deja vu" and for the increase in psychic-[seeming] experiences after
the NDE. I shall keep looking for evidence that might prove it wrong,, but
for now The Dying Brain Hypothesis accounts better for what we know.
(iv) The Transformation Argument
Finally, there is The Transformation Argument. This is that people are
changed by their NDE’s, sometimes
dramatically for the better, becoming more spiritual and less materialistic.
The Afterlife Hypothesis attributes this to NDEers having a spiritual
experience in another world. IN FACT THIS DOES NOT REALLY EXPLAIN IT AT
ALL. THERE IS NO OBVIOUS REASON WHY AN AFTERLIFE SHOULD BE A BETTER ONE NOR
WHY CONTACT WITH IT SHOULD MAKE PEOPLE WHO RETURN NICER. THIS IS SIMPLY
ASSUMED.
By contrast, The Dying Brain Hypothesis is compatible with two reasons for
transformation. One is simply that being made to THINK about death
[concretely] can affect a person’s priorities deeply, whether it is their
death or another’s and whether they have an NDE or not. This alone can make
them less selfish and more concerned for others. The other is that coming
close to death can provoke the insight that self was only a construction of
the brain and nervous system; that all the struggles, attachment and
suffering of life depend on that artificial construction and that it can be
let go. There never was any SOLID SELF and there is no [substantial] self
to die. With this insight fear is left behind and life can be lived more
directly and fully. The Dying Brain Hypothesis accounts better for the
mystical insight of the NDE and the changes it can bring about.
All things considered, I can see NO reason to adopt The Afterlife
Hypothesis. I am sure I shall remain in the minority for a long time to
come, especially amongst NDErs, but for me the evidence and the arguments
are overwhelming. The Dying Brain Hypothesis, for all its shortcomings,
does a better job of accounting for the experiences themselves. And it
reveals NOT a false hope of the self being perpetuated into an infinite and
everlasting tomorrow by God (or whatever), BUT A GENUINE INSIGHT BEYOND THE
SELF.
We are biological organisms, evolved in fascinating ways for NO purpose at
all and with NO END in ANY MIND. We are simply here and this is how it is.
I have no [substantial] self and "I" own nothing. There is NO ONE to die.
THERE IS JUST THIS MOMENT, AND NOW THIS AND NOW THIS…
(E) OBE’S, HEAVENLY, & OTHERWORLDLY LIMBIC EXPERIENCES – back to Rhawn
Joseph
The preeminent neurologists Penfield and Perot describe several patients
who, during temporal lobe seizures, claimed they could seem themselves in
different situations. One woman stated that "it was as though I were two
persons, one watching, and the other having this happen to me", and that it
was she who was doing the watching , as if she were completely separated
from her body.
One patient had a sensation of being outside her body, watching and
observing herself from the outside. Another neurosurgery patient alleged
that, while outside her body, she was also overcome by feelings of euphoria
and eternal harmony. Yet another patient reported an epileptic aura in
which she experienced a feeling of being lifted up out of her body, coupled
with a very pleasant sensation of elation and the feeling that she was just
about to find out knowledge no one else shares, something to do with the
link between life and death. Yet other patients suffering from temporal
lobe seizures have noted that feelings and perceptions suddenly became
CRYSTAL CLEAR (my "Space-Like Mind" experience) or that of having Truth
revealed to them, or of having achieved a sense of greater awareness such
that sounds, smells, and visual objects seemed to have greater meaning and
sensibility.
(F) DEATH OF THE TEMPORAL LOBE
It is likely that conditions involving extreme fear and/or traumatic injury,
and some cases of temporal lobe epilepsy, result in hyperactivation of the
amygdala and hippocampus, which in turn will begin to hallucinate and/or
trigger visions of brilliant light, as well as secrete opiate-like
neurotransmitters than induce a state of euphoria and, thus, eternal peace
and harmony. Given that similar experiences are reported by those who have
been declared "clinically dead", the possibility is raised that the
hippocampus and amygdala may be the first areas of the brain to be affected
by approaching death, as well as one of the last regions of the brain to
actually die. That is, as one approaches death, and even after "clinical
death", the amygdala and hippocampus may continue to function briefly and
not only become hyperactivated, but produce a feeling of eternal peace and
tranquillity and a hallucination of floating outside the body and of meeting
relatives and other religious figures, like in a dream.
(G) SEXUALITY, RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE, AND TEMPORAL LOBE HYPERACTIVATION:
SOME SPECULATIONS
A not uncommon characteristic of high levels of limbic system and inferior
temporal lobe activity are changes in sexuality as well as a deepening of
religious fervor. It is noteworthy that not just modern-day evangelists,
but many ancient religious leaders, including Abraham and Muhammad, tended
to be highly sexual and partook of may partners. Many also displayed
evidence of the Kluver-Bucy syndrome, such as eating dung (Ezekiel), as well
as temporal lobe hyperactivation and epilepsy.
Muhammad, God’s alleged messenger, was apparently dyslexic and agraphic
(loss, partial or total, of the ability to write) and was known to lose
consciousness and enter into trance states. In fact, he had his first truly
spiritual/religious conversion when, as the story goes, he was torn from his
sleep by the archangel Gabriel.
Muhammad was basically a kind and considerate man, but he was also known to
fly into extreme rages and to kill, or at least order killed, wealthy
infidels and merchants and those who opposed him. These behaviors, when
coupled with his increased sexuality, heightened religious fervor, trance
states, mood swings, and possible auditory and visual hallucinations of a
titanic angel, certainly point to the limbic system and inferior temporal
lobe as the possible neurological foundation for these experiences.
(H) RELIGION, LIMBIC SYSTEM HYPERACTIVATION, AND TEMPORAL LOBE SEIZURES
Among a TINY MINORITY of humans, the nuclei of the limbic system have a
tendency to periodically become over-activated. When this occurs, emotions
may be perceived or expressed abnormally, and the sensory and emotional
filtering that normally takes place in these nuclei is reduced or abolished.
Moreover, instead of being merely overly sensitive, those affected may
suddenly experience extreme anger, rage, paranoia, depression, sexual
desire, or even religious ecstasy. And they may hallucinate the presence of
threatening people, animals, or even religious figures. Deepening of
emotions, hallucinations, alterations in sex drive, and the development of
extreme religious beliefs (i.e., hyper religiousness) are not uncommon
manifestations of limbic-temporal lobe seizures and hyperactivation.
In fact, certain individuals who develop temporal lobe epilepsy and, thus,
limbic hyperactivation, may suddenly become hyper-religious and spend hours
reading and talking about the Bible (or other culturally relevant
scriptures) and other religious issues. Once this condition develops, they
may spend hours every day preaching or writing out their mystical and/or
religious thoughts, or engaging in certain actions they believe have
religious significance. Many modern-day religious writers also happen to
suffer from epilepsy are, in fact, exceedingly prolific, and those who feel
impelled to preach tend to do just that.
People who suffer from periodic episodes of limbic and temporal lobe
hyper-activation, such as those with temporal lobe epilepsy, typically have
seizures. It is not uncommon for these seizures to be preceded by an
hallucination.
The great existential author, Feodor Dostoevsky, apparently suffered from
temporal lobe epilepsy. Dostoevsky alleged, via one of his characters, that
when he had a seizure the gates of Heaven would open and he could see row
upon row of angels blowing on great golden trumpets. Then two great golden
doors would open and he could see a golden stairway that would lead right up
to the throne of God.
As noted above, there is some evidence that many religious and spiritual
leaders have had similar temporal lobe, limbic-system-induced religious
experiences. Moses, for example, may have suffered from temporal lobe
seizures. Presumably, this was a consequence of being left, as an infant,
for days to bake in the sun, after his mother abandoned him in a basket on a
small stream. If that were the case, his brain could have become overheated
and damaged by the scorching Egyptian sun.
If Moses subsequently developed temporal lobe epilepsy, this cold explain
his hyper-religious fervor, his rages, and the numerous murders he committed
or ordered. His speech impediment, hyper-graphia (copious and obsessive
writing with a neurological etiology), and hallucinations, such as hearing
the voice of God speaking to him from a burning bush, are symptoms not
uncommonly associated with temporal lobe seizures and limbic
hyperactivation.
(I) ISOLATION, LIMBIC HYPERACTIVATION, AND HALLUCINATIONS
It has been well established that even short-term social and sensory
isolation lasting just a few days can induce emotionally and visually
profound and complex hallucinations that can be so personally distressing
that volunteers will refuse to discuss them.
John C. Lilly in 1972, combined LSD with prolonged water immersion and
social and sensory isolation for about 7 hours on several occasions, and
experienced and observed the presence of spiritual God-like beings who
beckoned to him.
Isolation, as well as food and water deprivation, increased or decreased
sexual activity, pain, drug use, self-mutilation, prayer, and meditation are
common methods of attaining mystical states of religious an spiritual
awareness, and have been employed world-wide, across time and culture.
These states also activate the limbic system.
For example, not only can pain or a desirable food item or sex partner
result in limbic arousal, but when the limbic system is denied normal modes
of input, be it sensory, emotional, social, or nutritional, it can become
hyperactive; stimuli normally deleted and/or subject to sensory filtering
are instead perceived. That is, limbic sensory acuity is increased, and in
some respects what is perceived is not always an "hallucination" in the
sense that it really involves the perception of overlapping sensory
qualities that are normally filtered out. Sensory filtering is quite common
at the level of the amygdala, which contains neurons that are multimodally
responsive as well as inhibitory via serotonin. However, when this filter
is removed, hallucinations and/or the perception of unusual sensory
qualities can result.
(J) LIMBIC HYPERACTIVITY AS AN INHERITED SPIRITUAL TRAIT
As pertaining to many religious figures such as the Buddha the following may
be said. While he may or may not have been hallucinating when he sought
meditative isolation and enlightenment, given the other features of his
personality and religiosity, it could be argued that his amygdala and
temporal lobe were highly active. Similarly, others capable of great
spiritual experiences demonstrate signs and behaviors associated with limbic
and temporal lobe hyperactivation. Is this, perhaps, because they are, in
fact, hyper-activating this region of the brain via various meditation,
attentional, and breath-manipulation techniques?
That is, a person who lives a highly spiritual and mystical lifestyle, might
perpetually activate this region of the brain and achieve what others can
only hope for via drugs, fasting, and isolation/deprivation – access to the
Spiritually Sublime.
(K) RIGHT HEMISPHERE, TEMPORAL LOBE HYPERACTIVATION, AND DREAMING
Some so-called mystics have reported a cessation of dreaming after years of
intensive meditation the intermediate stages of which were characterized by
silences, luminosity’s of all sorts, as well as changes in the experience of
time, space, causality, and self. Is there any basis in neurology for
claims like this? We believe the answer is in the affirmative, though the
condition would be VERY RARE.
The amygdala and the neocortex of the temporal lobe are highly
interactionally involved in the production of religious and hallucinatory
experiences, INCLUDING DREAM STATES. This is especially the case for the
RIGHT temporal lobe and RIGHT amygdala.
Moreover, the right hemisphere (and the right amygdala) is more involve than
the left in the reception and production of religious imagery. This is
likely, as the right hippocampus and right amygdala, and the right
hemisphere in general, also appear to be involved in the production of
hallucinations and dream imagery, as well as REM (i.e., rapid eye movement)
during sleep.
Electrophysiologically, the right temporal lobe become highly active during
REM sleep, whereas, conversely, the left temporal region become more active
in NREM (i.e., non-rapid eye movement). sleep. Similarly, measurements of
cerebral blood flow have shown an increase in the right temporal regions
during REM sleep and in subjects who, upon wakening, report visual,
hypnagogic, hallucinatory, and auditory dreaming. Interestingly, abnormal
and enhanced activity in the right temporal and temporal-occipital areas
acts to increase dreaming and REM sleep for an atypically long time.
Conversely, LSD-induced hallucinations are significantly reduced when the
right (but NOT the left) temporal lobe has been surgically removed.
Similarly, it has been reported that dreaming is ABOLISHED with right (but
NOT left) temporal lobe destruction. Furthermore, there appears to be a
specific complementary relationship between REM sleep, hallucinations,
mystical experiences, and right temporal (and thus right amygdala and
hippocampus) electrophysiological activity.
Answer #2: From "Is There Anybody Out There? The Fate of God in an
Accidental World" by Taner Edis
Psychology provides a better starting point, keeping in mind that even
ordinary experience is vastly complex and nowhere near adequately
understood. First, we need a rough map of mystical experience. Visions,
hallucinations, and the like take place in states of HYPERAROUSAL---levels
of cognitive and physiological activity are high. OTHER MYSTICAL
EXPERIENCES ARE PHYSIOLOGICALLY DISTINCT, CHARACTERIZED BY AN ABNORMALLY LOW
LEVEL OF AROUSAL. AWARENESS OF THE EXTERNAL WORLD FADES. Claims of special
spiritual knowledge have been based on both kinds of experience, but
mysticism is more properly associated with introvertive experiences brought
on by concentration techniques, "clearing the mind," and trying to remove
dependence on ordinary conceptual frameworks.
The most radical claims concern a "depth-mystical" state in which no
perceptual or conceptual content is said to be present. This goes beyond
having a vision of the deep nature of reality, or feeling a supernatural
presence; it is a state of consciousness which lacks any object to be
conscious _of._ After emerging from this state, the mystic describes it,
perhaps by using the language of negative theology---setting God beyond
_all_ limitations, and therefore all concepts. Psychologically, the central
notion is the pure consciousness event (PCE), in which "The subject is
awake, conscious, but without an object or content of consciousness---no
thoughts, emotions, sensations, or awareness of any external phenomena.
Nothing." This state is attained by a process of "forgetting." Through
repetitive mental techniques, cognition and conceptual thinking are turned
off, producing an effect similar to sensory deprivation experiments.
"Meditators and mystics practice a technique in which they recycle a
constant mental subroutine. This technique serves as a catalyst to enable
the mind to come to ‘forget’ all thought and sensation."
So mysticism is based on universal psychological processes, and even some
sort of doctrine-independent core might exist in PCEs. Of course, how this
is to be interpreted is the crucial question; the level of diversity and
doctrine-dependence that exists precludes a simple perennial-philosophy
approach.
While psychology illuminates the phenomenology of mysticism, it also
naturally leads to reductionist explanations requiring nothing beyond the
brain. Of course, esoteric knowledge claims are not associated with any
single psychological state, so complex explanations are required. While
depth-mysticism involves withdrawing into a cloud of unknowing, visionary
experiences are different altogether. A PCE might be intelligible in terms
of the attention-focusing function of consciousness: perhaps the
neurological basis for attention continues to operate even when parts of the
brain dealing with cognition and memory are occupied by a recycled mental
subroutine. Visionary mysticism is similar to hallucinatory and psychedelic
experiences, so it is likely that the brain is doing something altogether
different, though perhaps with some common elements.
Drug-induced experiences are helpful (within limits) in understanding
mystical states. For example, in a well-known experiment, seminary students
were given either a placebo or a psychedelic drug. All immersed themselves
in a religious environment by attending chapel, and engaging in prayer and
meditation. Many of the psychedelic group's experiences were closely
similar to classic mystical accounts. At present, it is fairly clear that
mystical states, like ordinary consciousness, have an underlying biological
basis. This is not to say that drug and visionary mystical experiences are
identical---the effect of a crude application of psychoactive substances may
well be different from what the brain's own chemicals produce within a
supportive social and religious context. However, there is no evidence for
anything beyond the brain. Proponents of psychedelic mysticism make
grandiose claims, like so-called "transpersonal experiences" providing
esoteric knowledge and transcending limitations of a "Cartesian/Newtonian
conception of the world." However, these rely on bad physics and the kind of
occult holism examined previously---little new is added by a psychedelic
orientation.
An emphasis on the brain lets us profitably compare extraordinary
experiences. Time perception is often distorted in mystical states,
sometimes to the extent of time feeling unreal or nonexistent. Very similar
phenomena are known from NDEs, and experiences involving the temporal lobe
of the brain. Many "weird" aspects of mystical experiences are best
approached in the context of paranormal claims in general. More mundane
psychological factors also can be recognized in mysticism. The best known
example of this concerns the oft-encountered sexual imagery in mystical
texts. An ecstatic state naturally will be described using the emotions and
vocabulary of sexual love, so unless the Christian identification of sex and
sin is taken too seriously, this is no embarrassment for mystical religion.
However, it brings up a mundane psychological substrate to the experience,
rendering it less mysterious.
Psychology is less helpful in understanding matters like the effect of
mystical experience on personality. We know too little about the complex
processes involved, though this ignorance does not call for a supernatural
resolution. Intriguing comparisons between some psychopathological states
and mysticism can be drawn, but this line of argument risks prejudicial
disease or deficiency implications. What is important is that there are
brain states not corresponding to perception of any objective reality, but
which are nevertheless intense in _feelings_ of insight or reality.
We can now give a naturalistic view of mysticism, to set in contrast with
mystical arguments for God. Humans have a natural capacity for ecstatic
experiences which have historically been interpreted in various religious
frameworks. These experiences can be valuable in learning about our brains,
but they do not signify anything beyond. While phenomena like the PCE are
curious, their use in explaining the world is limited. However, mystical
experience can of course be valued independently of explanatory concerns.
The Buddhist tradition in particular has much insight to offer, especially
as a counterpoint to the theist and monist tendency to view the self as a
unitary, even magical thing.
Leroy Kattein
<Remo_R...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>ON THE NEUROLOGICAL ORIGIN OF MYSTICAL EXPERIENCES & NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES:
>
I only read the first paragraph to know the writer never had a NDE.
Probably hasn't read the literature either.
I am waiting for some "scientist" to explain how a person can die on
the operating table and later come back to life with information he
didn't have when he died.
SpeshialK
NDEs, but for scientists to accept them as true, they have to be repeatable.
------
Keith
SpeshialK
>Probably one of the best types of evidence to give possibile veridicality
>to
>NDEs, but for scientists to accept them as true, they have to be repeatable.
And not to mention, just because someone comes out of their body at death, does
not necessarily mean life continues, indefinitely.
I don't think anyone can possibly know the TRUTH, either way. Those who say
NDEs are not supernatural, are wrong, as well as those who say the indeed are
for sure.
------
Keith
Robert Lauzeckas
The Mystic Fool wrote:
Interesting stuff, I'll have to read it when I have time.
So where did you get your degree from? Providing you have one.
And why hide? Who are you? And just spell out what you real intention is.
Use your common sense. Most people who come here have had their own NDE
experiences,
they know what they know.
I have had plenty of ESP experiences, it works. And if everything is conjured in
the brain by the brain, it wouldn't.
But it does.
But I also picked up on the stuff many powerful people wouldn't want the public
to know.
Like underground groups of influence. In all walks of life. And some working
against each other, without knowing it.
Or perhaps knowing it.
Do you think they would have an interest in destroying any confirmation of ESP?
I would!
And NDEs would have to go with it, wouldn't it?
Now what type of argument could they use against it? Hmm, do you know? Bet you
do.
Here, <ADDRESS>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/6058/</ADDRESS>
And what do you think of Ray Moody's research? After all, he is a real doctor as
well.
Shit, I just looked back, you're kidding with the dying brain theory does the
best job at explaining NDE experiences, right?
I hope I misread that.
Just look under Godel at my website. And this superficial bullshit about the
brain doing it all.
Haven't you heard of the hard problem incongintive science? Have you collected
facts without deep understanding?
So how does consciousness rise from a collection of brain activities? How does
the brain receive information about possible futures, when there are no clues?
Go to Rupert under Space.
You remind me of some[not most], college Profs. who sit and read and collect
facts, but ask one deep question and its a blank stare. But as they are arguing
against your points, they are at the same time planning to use them as well, but
of course, as their own. The ability to understand ideas is not the same ability
to hatch them. Like anyone can learn to play music, but so few can create it.
Tell me, don't you think you intentions are obvious here? I do. If you didn't
really believe, you wouldn't have come here.
You have, I think, a political agenda. I'll read your stuff more closely, maybe
I'm wrong about you.
RL
Joseph Zorzin
The scientists who try to show technical explanations for NDE's are just
trying to show that the arguments for an afterlife are not definitive
just because someone experiences an NDE. I doubt that they are arguing
that they have a clear proof that there isn't an afterlife. There is a
distinction.
I happen to not believe in an afterlife; the universe is infinitely
complex and rich. What more do you need? To me, every day reality itself
is the mystical realm. The natural is the supernatural. Wanting more is
a delusion. Or as the philosopher Alan Watts once said, "This is it."
--
Joe Zorzin
Scott Douglas
Joseph Zorzin wrote in message
<366FC43A...@forestmeister.com>...
>SpeshialK wrote:
>>
<snip>
>I happen to not believe in an afterlife; the universe is
infinitely
>complex and rich. What more do you need? To me, every day
reality itself
>is the mystical realm. The natural is the supernatural.
Wanting more is
>a delusion. Or as the philosopher Alan Watts once said,
"This is it."
>
Joe -
I have little doubt that Watts once said, "This is it.",
however I believe it was Lao-Tzu who first said it in
recorded history. One of the keys in the statement is how
one defines "it". From what you said in your missive, you
and I use a vastly different definition of the term. I use
the term as meaning all that is...whether I can perceive it
or not.
As I like to say - "You're right and I'm right...we simply
have different viewpoints on the same subject."
Have a good one...
...Scott
---------
Always we hope
someone else has the answer.
Some other place will be better,
some other time
it will turn out.
This is it.
No one else has the answer,
no other place will be better
and it has already turned out.
At the center of your being you have the answer,
you know who you are and you know what you want.
There is no need
to run outside for better seeing
nor to peer from a window.
Rather abide at
the center of your being;
for the more you leave it
the less you learn.
Lao-Tzu,
Author of the Tao Te Ching
Robert Lauzeckas
Joseph Zorzin wrote:
> SpeshialK wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Probably one of the best types of evidence to give possibile veridicality
> > >to
> > >NDEs, but for scientists to accept them as true, they have to be repeatable.
> >
> > And not to mention, just because someone comes out of their body at death, does
> > not necessarily mean life continues, indefinitely.
> >
> > I don't think anyone can possibly know the TRUTH, either way. Those who say
> > NDEs are not supernatural, are wrong, as well as those who say the indeed are
> > for sure.
> > ------
> > Keith
>
> The scientists who try to show technical explanations for NDE's are just
> trying to show that the arguments for an afterlife are not definitive
> just because someone experiences an NDE. I doubt that they are arguing
> that they have a clear proof that there isn't an afterlife. There is a
> distinction.
>
> I happen to not believe in an afterlife; the universe is infinitely
> complex and rich. What more do you need? To me, every day reality itself
> is the mystical realm. The natural is the supernatural. Wanting more is
> a delusion. Or as the philosopher Alan Watts once said, "This is it."
>
> --
> Joe Zorzin
What a laugh. This is it?????
My cat probably thinks with his view, 'this is it'.
My dog with his view, 'this is it'.
A lion, 'this is it'.
A monkey, 'this is it'.
A misguided thinker with very limited insights, except against blinder fools, 'this
is it'.
Nothing you'll ever see, will ever be, 'this is it.'
This wonderful view you have, is so SAGAN! He was a good and smart man, but about
philosophy, not really.
Facts and insights are different. Like learning to play a song[almost anyone can do
with training] is different from writing good songs[more insight].
I used to read Hume, Kant, Russell, Whitened and many others as a kid for answers.
Know what, they haven't got any.
And Russell admitted in public, most of them aren't really deep, they deliberately
convolute their logic to add respectability to it. The harder it is to understand,
the reasoning goes, the more its a result of a genius mind, therefore more likely to
be correct. And being correct is the name of the game.
All bullshit, all bullshit, all bullshit. Just complex bullshit.
Einstein, Newton, and better thinkers of nature knew it.
Come on, take me down....want a challenge?
Hey dude, Jesus lives, and you're in hot shit. But first the last anti-Christ will
come. Even hotter shit.
<ADDRESS>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/6058/</ADDRESS>
Challenge me with ideas. Come on.
I'm tired of the bs. This time I hit back.
RL
Robert Lauzeckas
Leroy Kattein wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:41:30 -0600, "The Mystic Fool"
> <Remo_R...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >ON THE NEUROLOGICAL ORIGIN OF MYSTICAL EXPERIENCES & NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES:
> >
>
> I only read the first paragraph to know the writer never had a NDE.
> Probably hasn't read the literature either.
> I am waiting for some "scientist" to explain how a person can die on
> the operating table and later come back to life with information he
> didn't have when he died.
Excellent point. Because if they were right, they wouldn't be able to, BUT THEY
DO!
But they ignore that simple fact! WHY!?
If you were truly searching for the truth, you would take into account all facts,
ALL, not just some, including your last point and by using logic alone conclude
there must be something more.
But they ignore, like pollsters, anything which disagrees with them. Trying hard
to sound intelligent and honest, but actually be otherwise. They lie, they have
an agenda with knowledge about God, hide it.
This tactic reminds me of the atheists in the Soviet Union of yesteryear.
Ask yourself this, if you truly didn't believe in God or NDEs, would you waste
your time trying to disprove them?
Or would thinking of other matters in daily life be more interesting?
If you're interested in the possibly of NDEs or believe in them, you spend time
thinking about it sometimes. Hopefully not too much.
But if you don't believe and you're sure you're right, you probably wouldn't
waste a minute.
Without an agenda that is!
So the beast finally raises its head. NOt you Dear. The ones below. Good. Its a
group mind, now to the others, look for it, them.
RL
Joseph Zorzin
>
> Joseph Zorzin wrote in message
> <366FC43A...@forestmeister.com>...
> >SpeshialK wrote:
> >>
> <snip>
>
> infinitely
> >complex and rich. What more do you need? To me, every day
> reality itself
> >is the mystical realm. The natural is the supernatural.
> Wanting more is
> >a delusion. Or as the philosopher Alan Watts once said,
> "This is it."
> >
>
> I have little doubt that Watts once said, "This is it.",
> however I believe it was Lao-Tzu who first said it in
> recorded history. One of the keys in the statement is how
> one defines "it". From what you said in your missive, you
> and I use a vastly different definition of the term. I use
> the term as meaning all that is...whether I can perceive it
> or not.
Yes, Watts just "Americanized" Zen for those of us too lazy to read the
real thing. I agree pretty much with your definition. And I suppose "it"
also includes our delusions, as it must, no? <G>
--
Joe Zorzin, Professional Mud Forester
http://forestmeister.com
-
z-mail, list server, for the Massachusetts forestry revolution of '98
read about it at http://forestmeister.com/z-mail.html
-
proposed forester license regs for Mass. and comments
by K.Davies at http://forestmeister.com/regs.html
Joseph Zorzin
>
> Joseph Zorzin wrote:
>
> > SpeshialK wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >Probably one of the best types of evidence to give possibile veridicality
> > > >to
> > > >NDEs, but for scientists to accept them as true, they have to be repeatable.
> > >
> > > And not to mention, just because someone comes out of their body at death, does
> > > not necessarily mean life continues, indefinitely.
> > >
> > > I don't think anyone can possibly know the TRUTH, either way. Those who say
> > > NDEs are not supernatural, are wrong, as well as those who say the indeed are
> > > for sure.
> > > ------
> > > Keith
> >
> > The scientists who try to show technical explanations for NDE's are just
> > trying to show that the arguments for an afterlife are not definitive
> > just because someone experiences an NDE. I doubt that they are arguing
> > that they have a clear proof that there isn't an afterlife. There is a
> > distinction.
> >
> > complex and rich. What more do you need? To me, every day reality itself
> > is the mystical realm. The natural is the supernatural. Wanting more is
> > a delusion. Or as the philosopher Alan Watts once said, "This is it."
> >
> > Joe Zorzin
>
> What a laugh. This is it?????
>
> My cat probably thinks with his view, 'this is it'.
>
> My dog with his view, 'this is it'.
>
> A lion, 'this is it'.
>
> A monkey, 'this is it'.
>
> A misguided thinker with very limited insights, except against blinder fools, 'this
> is it'.
>
> Nothing you'll ever see, will ever be, 'this is it.'
Thanks for clearing that up for me. <G>
>
> This wonderful view you have, is so SAGAN! He was a good and smart man, but about
> philosophy, not really.
Glad to know you're smarter than Sagan and Watts.
>
> Facts and insights are different. Like learning to play a song[almost anyone can do
> with training] is different from writing good songs[more insight].
>
> I used to read Hume, Kant, Russell, Whitened and many others as a kid for answers.
> Know what, they haven't got any.
Right, nobody does. That's the point.
>
> And Russell admitted in public, most of them aren't really deep, they deliberately
> convolute their logic to add respectability to it. The harder it is to understand,
> the reasoning goes, the more its a result of a genius mind, therefore more likely to
> be correct. And being correct is the name of the game.
>
> All bullshit, all bullshit, all bullshit. Just complex bullshit.
Yes, you should know. <G>
>
> Einstein, Newton, and better thinkers of nature knew it.
You forgot to mention yourself. <G>
>
> Come on, take me down....want a challenge?
>
> Hey dude, Jesus lives, and you're in hot shit. But first the last anti-Christ will
> come. Even hotter shit.
>
> <ADDRESS>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/6058/</ADDRESS>
>
> Challenge me with ideas. Come on.
>
> I'm tired of the bs. This time I hit back.
>
> RL
--
Joe Zorzin
André St-Onge
in our 2nd life that it is only their fear expressing their thoughts.
Shack
Leroy Kattein a écrit dans le message <366d7045...@news.ionet.net>...
>On Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:41:30 -0600, "The Mystic Fool"
><Remo_R...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>ON THE NEUROLOGICAL ORIGIN OF MYSTICAL EXPERIENCES & NEAR-DEATH
EXPERIENCES:
>>
>
Scott Douglas
>Joseph Zorzin wrote in message
>>Scott M. Douglas wrote:
>> I have little doubt that Watts once said, "This is it.",
>> however I believe it was Lao-Tzu who first said it in
>> recorded history. One of the keys in the statement is
how
>> one defines "it". From what you said in your missive,
you
>> and I use a vastly different definition of the term. I
use
>> the term as meaning all that is...whether I can perceive
it
>> or not.
>Yes, Watts just "Americanized" Zen for those of us too lazy
to read the
>real thing. I agree pretty much with your definition. And I
suppose "it"
>also includes our delusions, as it must, no? <G>
>
Yeah...especially the delusions of Buddha, Christ, Dalai
Lama, Plato, Newton, Galileo and Pasteur as well as all the
rest of the delusionary thinkers of mankind. Most of the
breakthroughs of science and theology have been made by
those whose vision did not agree with the current thinking.
Some of these delusionary visionaries were quite rightfully
put to death for expressing their hallucinations.
Robert Lauzeckas
Joseph Zorzin wrote:
Come on, you sounded SO SCIENTIFIC, so take me down.
Amuse me. Just kidding. Read my site and disprove it.
Then, if you're really smart, you'll even figure out what and who I am[inside].
Hey, that essay was from God to me to you[others too, don't get a swell head]. God always
existed, but not exactly how you pictured him. You see, too many of yous around.
That is the bitter part. The sweet part was how it was written. But somehow, I don't think
you'll be able to figure out my hints.
I hate to break the news to you Joseph but many souls have come back for a mighty big
fight And some are pure evil, praying for more people like you. You'll never know what
hit you.
But I expect you to keep your chin up. Pretend your opinion matters and your disapproval
matters, molding what you can't, the truth.
RL.
Joseph Zorzin
>
> Yes, Sometimes I feel some people are puting so much energy in NOT beleiving
> in our 2nd life that it is only their fear expressing their thoughts.
>
You certainly have a right to believe what you want; but you really
don't know for sure because you've never been dead, not really dead; as
in dead as a doornail; you (if you had a NDE) were only in some near
death situation; so all you really know about is what you experienced
while nearly dead, not totally dead. There is a HUGE difference.
Leroy Kattein
How would you know there is a difference? Arn't you doing the same
thing you accuse others of? Read the literature and learn. NDEs are
real.
pot...@crop.cri.nz
that says the brain is responsible for it all. In
the NDE there is clearly an experiencer, and this means
consciousness. If all the neurons in all parts of the
brain apart from the amygdala are not firing,
where does this sense of
self reside? Certainly the amygdala is not a serious contender.
It's like saying that we've discovered that the eyes are
responsible for sight. There's no need to postulate a brain.
It's as if Godel's theorem had never been formulated, which
the great man did way back in the 30s. Don't people see
its implications?
The last reductionist viewpoint I read gave the role to
"only the pineal gland". A few weeks before that, it was
somewhere else.
Also, as someone recently pointed out, any biological
theory has to take account of people returning from death
and reporting things that had gone on on Earth while they
were dead, sometimes far removed from the scene. These
things are frequently corroborated.
Another flaw is to say that if stimulating the amygdala
makes strange or beautiful experiences occur in the
subject, then they are hallucinations. It could easily be
opening a window to another life.
Those that say that death is defined as that which you
don't return from, are making up a new and heterodox
definition. It's not the official one.
Fred
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Joseph Zorzin
You don't think there is a difference between being dead and nearly
dead? duh...
--
Joe Zorzin
Joseph Zorzin
>
> There is a deep flaw in the reductionist thinking
> that says the brain is responsible for it all. In
> the NDE there is clearly an experiencer, and this means
> consciousness. If all the neurons in all parts of the
> brain apart from the amygdala are not firing,
> where does this sense of
> self reside? Certainly the amygdala is not a serious contender.
> It's like saying that we've discovered that the eyes are
> responsible for sight. There's no need to postulate a brain.
>
> It's as if Godel's theorem had never been formulated, which
> the great man did way back in the 30s. Don't people see
> its implications?
>
> The last reductionist viewpoint I read gave the role to
> "only the pineal gland". A few weeks before that, it was
> somewhere else.
>
> Also, as someone recently pointed out, any biological
> theory has to take account of people returning from death
> and reporting things that had gone on on Earth while they
> were dead, sometimes far removed from the scene. These
> things are frequently corroborated.
Nobody has EVER returned from the dead, NEVER; except maybe Christ.
Being nearly dead is NOT the same as being dead as a doornail; so you
can NOT make conclusions about what death is about. Doing so is childish
and wishful thinking.
Kimberland
Robert Lauzeckas wrote in message <3670304D...@ix.netcom.com>...
>Challenge me with ideas. Come on.
>
>I'm tired of the bs. This time I hit back.
Anytime, anywhere, anything baby!!
Gil (looking to get arrested?)
jgri...@interlog.com
Kimberland
Robert Lauzeckas wrote in message <36703505...@ix.netcom.com>...
>Ask yourself this, if you truly didn't believe in God or NDEs, would you
waste
>your time trying to disprove them?
>
Surely, some people are intrigued and 'sucked' into a situation just to play
around with it or test it out....I mean, there is a LOT of noise about
NDEs....people's attentions are tweaked and some come out of the woodwork to
say 'Now then, what is all this about?'
Then again, some people are simply so bored, they will do anything...
>Or would thinking of other matters in daily life be more interesting?
Like sex?
Gil (obsessed with sex)
jgri...@interlog.com
Steven Madonick
This is one of those situations where it has either happened to you or it
hasn't. It doesn't happen to everyone. No one can be intrigued or sucked
into playing around with death. It is the question that we carry in life
that is important. Sometimes when one gets near to death one comes back
with bigger question. I don't suggest you pursue death for an answer. Why
don't you just pursue another ng?
Steve
Kimberland <jgri...@interlog.com> wrote in article
<757q53$e47$1...@news.interlog.com>...