Jesus was a vegetarian
Jahnu
Jesus & vegetarianism
So when we talk about changing one's life, giving one's time, life,
energy, mind, resources to God and worship him with all one's heart
mind soul, etc., well we all agree to that.
To be non violent, not to kill others (humans and animals alike, not
even for food (it is quite clear that the Early Christians were
vegetarians, see below), we all agree on that. We are citizens of the
spiritual world and we should not unnecessarily use our valuable time
in mundane pursuits. Unless we give up material life and turn with
great determination towards spiritual life our life will be a loss and
end up in disappointment.
On the other side when we start taking about the resurrection of the
flesh and that Jesus died for our sins, well these are theological
concepts that were superimposed on the teachings of Jesus from Paul on
and really miss the point of his actual teachings to mankind.
Quote from the book "Food for peace":
Major stumbling blocks for many Christians are the belief that Christ
ate meat and the many references to meat in the New Testament. But
close study of the original Greek manuscripts shows that the vast
majority of the words translated as "meat" are trophe, brome, and
other words that simply mean "food" or "eating" in the broadest sense.
For example, in the Gospel (Luke 8:55) we read that Jesus raised a
woman from the dead and "commanded to give her meat." The original
Greek word translated as "meat" is phago, which means only "to eat".
So, what Christ actually said was, "Let her eat."
The original Greek word for meat is kreas ("flesh"), and it is never
used in connection with Christ. In Luke 24:41-43 the disciples offered
him fish and a honeycomb and he took it (singular, we can guess which
one). Nowhere in the New Testament is there any direct reference to
Jesus eating meat.
This is in line with Isaiah's famous prophecy: "Behold, a virgin shall
conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. He shall
eat butter and honey, so that he may know the evil from the good."
(Isaiah 7:14-15) (this itself says that meat eating destroys all good
discretion in man. It is quite typical, that the second part of the
sentence is omitted in Matthew 1:23).
Jesus rebuked strongly the pharisees with the words: "...and if you
had known what it means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice, ...you
would not condemn the innocent," (Matthew 12:6) which clearly
disapproves of the killing of animals, as this is a verse taken from
Hosea 6:6: "I desire mercy instead of sacrifice, the knowledge of God
more than burnt offerings..." (note: again the the 2nd part of the
sentence is omitted in Matthew 12:6).
He strongly opposed the custom of temple animal sacrifices, violently
driving those who were selling oxen, sheep and pigeons and the
money-changers out of the temple (John 2:13-15).
His words: "...you shall not make my father's house a house of trade
(which in earlier translations always was translated as "murders'
den").
We all know that according to Matthew 3:4 John the Baptist was
refusing to eat meat. ("...and his food was wild locust (bean) and
wild honey." (orig. Greek: enkris, oil cake and akris: locust/honey)
But we never hear of the sheer overwhelming evidence which points to
Jesus being a vegetarian: No less than seven of Jesus' twelve
disciples refused meat food (the rest we do not know). This naturally
reflects the teachings of Jesus, as: "...a servant is not greater than
his master..." (John 14:16).
The seven are:
1. Peter, "...whose food was bread, olives and herbs..." (Clem. Hom.
XII,6)
2. James: Church Father Eusebius, quoting the Churchfather Hegesippus
(about 160 AD) is stating:
"...But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives
the most accurate account in the fifth book of his memoirs. He writes
as follow: '...James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the
government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been
called the Just by all from the time of our savior to the present day;
for there were many that bore the name James.
'He was holy from his mother's womb; he drank no wine, nor strong
drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head, he did not
anoint himself with oil and he did not use the bath. He alone was
permitted to enter the holy place; for he wore no woolen but linen
garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple,
and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the
people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel in
consequence of constantly bending them on his worship of
God...'" (Eusebius, Church History II, Ch. XXIII,5-7, Nicene and Post
Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Oxford, N.Y., 1890, Vol I,
p.125)
It is interesting that Hegesippus is saying that James, the brother of
Jesus, was holy from his mother's womb on which would apply that Mary
was not eating meat either and that she never fed him meat as a child.
That being the case one would think it to be clear that the whole
family of Jesus and naturally he himself was vegetarian. In that sense
the statement of Churchfather Eusebius "he was holy from his mother's
womb" is most indicative pointing towards the vegetarianism of Jesus.
3. Thomas: The apocryphal Acts of Thomas (Ch. 20), which actually were
widely in use among early Christian sects, depict this disciple of
Jesus as ascetic: "He continually fasts and prays, and abstaining from
eating of flesh and drinking wine, he eats only bread, with salt and
drink and water, and wears the same garment in fine weather and
winter, and accepts nothing from anyone, and gives whatever he has to
others."
4. Matthew: "It is far better to be happy than to have a demon
dwelling with us. And happiness is found in the practice of virtue.
Accordingly, the apostle Matthew partook of seeds and nuts, fruits and
vegetables without of flesh. And John, who carried temperance to the
extreme, ate locusts and wild honey..."
(Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, II.I,16: On Eating)
(Note here the strong hint of Clement towards the vegetarianism of
John the Baptist.)
5. Matthias (who filled the place of Judas - Acts 1:21-26). His food
as told by Church Father Clement of Alexandria was the same as
Matthews. (Clement/Stromata III,4,26)
6. Andrew and 7. Jude: Andrew (Peter's brother in both flesh and
faith) and Jude of Bethsaida, originally two of John the Baptists'
followers, must have followed the Baptist's austere diet. (See above
under Matthew)
Paul also says: "...It is good neither to drink wine or eat flesh..."
(Roman 14:20-21) though his commitment altogether seems altogether
somewhat less categorical.
Beyond that there are strong arguments of a similar nature by many of
the Fathers of the early Church:
"...How unworthy do you press the example of Christ as having come
eating and drinking into the service of your lusts: I think that He
who pronounced not the full, but the hungry and thirsty 'Blessed,' who
professed His work to be the completion of His Father's Will, I think
that he was wont to abstain, instructing them to labor for that 'Meat'
which lasts to eternal life, and enjoying in their common prayers
petition, not for flesh food but for bread only..." - Quintus
Septimius Tertullianus (AD 155).
This knowledge of Tertullianus was supported by fragments of the
writings by the Apostolic Father Papias (AD 60 - 125).
"...The unnatural eating of flesh is as polluting as the heathens
worship of devils with its sacrifices and impure feasts, through
participation in which a man becomes a fellow eater with devils..."
(2nd century scripture Clemente Homilies - Hom. XII)
Clemens Prudentius, the first Christian hymn writer exhorts in one of
his hymns his fellow Christians "...not to pollute their hands and
hearts by the slaughter of innocent cows and sheep..."
Accordingly the Apostle Matthew, "partook of seeds, and nuts, and
vegetables, without the use of flesh... is there not within a
temperate simplicity, a wholesome variety of eatables, vegetables,
roots, olives, herbs, milk, cheese, fruits?" - Churchfather Clement of
Alexandria (Titus Flavius Clemens, AD 150 - 220)
"...We, the Christian leaders, practice abstinence from the flesh of
animals to subdue our bodies. The unnatural eating of flesh is of
demonic origin." And about the early Christians: "...No streams of
blood are among them. No dainty cookery, no heaviness of head. Nor are
horrible smells of flesh meats among them or disagreeable fumes from
the kitchen.." - St. Chrysostomos (AD 347-404)
A most important purport to a controversy, much cherished and much
cited by meat-eating Christians we find in the writings of the
Churchfather Jerome (AD 340 - 420), who gave us the Vulgate, the
authorized Latin version of the Bible still in use today.
The controversy is based on the fact that in Genesis 1:29 meat-eating
is clearly forbidden, "...I give you every seed-bearing plant on the
face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it.
They will be yours for food..."
However after the flood it appears that meat-eating is all of a sudden
permitted: "...The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts
of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that
moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are
given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food
for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you
everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in
it..." (Genesis 9:2-4)
Writing in confutation of Jovinian, a monk of Milan, who abandoned
asceticism, St. Jerome (died A.D. 440) holds up vegetarianism as the
Christian ideal and the restoration of the primeval rule of life.
St. Jerome says:
"...He (Jovinian) raises the objection that when God gave His second
blessing, permission was granted to eat flesh, which had not in the
first benediction been allowed. He should know that just as divorce
according to the Saviour's word was not permitted from the beginning,
but on account of the hardness of our heart was a concession of Moses
to the human race, (Matthew 9:8: "Moses permitted you to divorce your
wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the
beginning.") ...so too the eating of flesh was unknown until the
deluge. But after the deluge, like the quails given in the desert to
the murmuring people, the poison of flesh-meat was offered to our
teeth. The Apostle writing to the Ephesians (Eph. 1:10) teaches that
God had purposed in the fullness of time to sum up and renew in Christ
Jesus all things which are in heaven and in earth. Whence also the
Saviour himself in the Revelation of John says (Rev. 1:8; 22:13), "I
am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending."
At the beginning of the human race we neither ate flesh, nor gave
bills of divorce, nor suffered circumcision for a sign. Thus we
reached the deluge. But after the deluge, together with the giving of
the law which no one could fulfill, flesh was given for food, and
divorce was allowed to hard-hearted men, and the knife of circumcision
was applied, as though the hand of God had fashioned us with something
superfluous. But once Christ has come in the end of time, and Omega
passed into Alpha and turned the end into the beginning, we are no
longer allowed divorce (see Matthew 19:3-9), nor are we circumcised,
nor so we eat flesh, for the Apostle says (Rom. 14:21), "It is good
not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine." For wine as well as flesh was
consecrated after the deluge." (Against Jovinianus, Book I,18)
"The steam of meat darkens the light of the spirit... One hardly can
have virtue when one enjoys meat meals and feasts..." - St. Basil (AD
320 - 79)
Besides that contemporary heathen observers describe the early
Christians as abstaining from meat:
Pliny, Governor of Bithynia (where Peter preached) referred to the
early Christians in a letter to Trajan, the Roman Emperor, as a
..."contagious superstition abstaining from flesh food..."
Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD), stoic philosopher and tutor of Nero, describes
the Christians as "...a foreign cultus or superstition (under imperial
suspicion) who abstain from flesh food..."
And Josephus Flavius says about the early Christians: "...They
assemble before sunrising and speak not a word of profane matters but
put up certain prayers... and sit down together each one to a single
plate of one sort of innocent food..."
The scholar E.M. Szekely claims to have recovered and translated from
an old Aramaic scripture, "...Therefore, he who kills, kills his
brother... And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his
own tomb. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and who
so eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats of the body of death... Kill
neither men, nor beasts, nor the food which goes into your mouth...
For life comes from life, and from death comes always death. For
everything which kills your foods, kills your bodies also. And your
bodies become what your foods are, even as your spirits become what
your thoughts are..." - E.M. Szekely, Gospel of Peace
And Albert Schweitzer says: "...Ethics has not only to do with mankind
but with the animal creation as well. This is witnessed in the purpose
of St. Francis of Assisi. Thus we shall arrive that ethics is
reverence for all life. This is the ethic of love widened universally.
It is the ethic of Jesus now recognized as a necessity of thought...
Only a universal ethic which embraces every living creature can put us
in touch with the universe and the will which is there manifest..."
Cardinal John Henry Newman (1801 - 90) says: "...Cruelty to animals is
as if man did not love God... They have done us no harm, they have no
power of resistance... there is something dreadful, so satanic in
tormenting those who have never harmed us and who cannot defend
themselves, who are utterly in our power..."
Tolstoy and Dukhobor (Orthodox Russian Christian) were of the opinion
that meat-eating is against the tenets of Christianity.
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya
of ISKCON (Hare Krishna Movement) concludes: "...There are many
rascals who violate their own religious principles. While it clearly
says according to Judeo-Christian scriptures, "Thou shalt not kill,"
they are giving all kinds of excuses. Even the heads of religions
indulge in killing animals while trying to pass as saintly persons.
This mockery and hypocrisy in human society has brought about
unlimited calamities..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul's teachings and interpretations
And it's absolutely amazing that Paul actually tells it himself:
"...One man's faith (in the idea of salvation from the cross) allows
him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith (in the cross) is
weak, eats only vegetables..." (Roman 14:2)
The smoking gun is right there: It is Paul's concept of faith in the
salvific nature of the cross, declaring the Torah obsolete which leads
him to view the vegetarianism of the apostles as dietetic fanaticism
of Nazarene Jewish origin and hence dispensable.
Further proof are at hand. In fact the following statements make no
sense whatsoever, unless we agree that Paul needed to convince a large
section of early Christians, that there was no problem with eating
meat.
"Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.
All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that
causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink
wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. So
whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and
God..." (Rom 14:20-22)
In other words it is O.K. to eat meat as long as nobody is offended
and the community of Christians is not disturbed.
He goes on:
"If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat
whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.
But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then
do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for
conscience' sake-- the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For
why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? If I take
part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of
something I thank God for? So whether you eat or drink or whatever you
do, do it all for the glory of God." (1 Cor 10:27-31)
In other words as far as eating meat, even when offered in sacrifice,
Paul had no scruples unless it is declared, that meat is offered in
sacrifice. In this case do not eat it, to avoid to offend others.
It is very clear: It needed to be saying that meat eating is allowed.
There were Christians who are vegetarians. Beware of meat offered in
sacrifice. Because besides the vegetarian Christians there were others
who were less strict but who would not approve of the idea of eating
meat offered in sacrifice. Meat eating in general is allowed,
according to Paul:
"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of
conscience, for, 'The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it.'"
(1 Cor 10:25-26)
Again, this makes no sense unless there must have been Christians who
found it difficult to reconcile with their conscience to buy meat in
the market.
And again more:
"As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is
unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then
for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what
you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating
destroy your brother for whom Christ died." (Roman 14:14-15)
Later this point of view is reflected in Timothy, possibly addressing
early Christian sects like the later banned Enkratites:
"...They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain
foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who
believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good,
and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving..."
(1 Timothy 4:3-4)
So we can see that there was obviously a large group of people who did
not agree with meat eating in general (hence he says don't let it be a
matter of conscience to you when buying meat in the market).
Definitely the issue was not about eating food offered in sacrifice,
as made out by Christian theologians.
The tensions between Paul are further reflected in the way how he
addresses the disciples of Jesus. He makes it perfectly clear that
their opinions are not what Paul is overly concerned with.
He sarcastically describes the Apostles in Jerusalem (James, Peter) as
"those Super Apostles", "those reputed to be the Pillars":
"...But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those
"super-apostles." I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have
knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way."
(2 Cor 11:5-6)
He clearly is preaching a different Jesus then the Apostles in
Jerusalem. Hence he warns his followers:
"...For if someone comes to you and preaches A JESUS OTHER THAN THE
JESUS WE PREACHED, or if you receive a different spirit from the one
you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put
up with it easily enough."
(2 Cor 11:4)
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other
than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we
have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you
a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally
condemned!" (Gal 1:8-9)
"And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground
from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with
us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles,
deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder,
for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." (2 Cor 11:12-14)
Brendon Ward
Jahnu
HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
The Hunger Argument
Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
million.
Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
Human beings in America: 243 million
Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by
U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99
How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20.OOO
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165
Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16
The Environmental Argument
Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from
fossil fuels.
Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free
diet: 50 times more
Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising:
85
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce
meat-centered diet: 260 million
Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador,
Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds
Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador,
Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S.
housecat.
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55
sq.ft.
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical
rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year
The Cancer Argument
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week
vs. less than once a week: 4 times
For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or
more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs.
sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times
The Natural Resources Argument
Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.:
livestock portion.
Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to
float a destroyer.
Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25
Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500
Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not
subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound
Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no
longer subsidized: 89 dollars
Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a
meat-centered diet: 13
Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260
Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million
Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient
factory farming of meat: 34.5
Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8
Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present
meat-centered diet: 33
The Cholesterol Argument
Number of U.S. medical schools: 125
Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30
Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four
years in medical school: 25 hours
Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack
How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds
Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc.
Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc.
Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood
cholesterol if it is: normal
Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your
blood cholesterol is ?normal?: over 50 perc.
The Antibiotic Argument
Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in
1960: 13
Percentage resistant in 1988: 91
Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of
antibiotics to livestock: ban
Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding
of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support
The Pesticide Argument
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains:
1
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits:
4
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy
products: 23
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55
Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs.
non meat-eating: 35 times higher
What USDA tells us: meat is inspected
Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin
chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004
The Ethical Argument
Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000
Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in
U.S:slaughterhouse worker
Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before
slaughter.: 1 cent
Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive
The Survival Argument
Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time
winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex
Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.
Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
-------------------------------
Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet
Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting
'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.'
--William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3
-Hector-
>
>HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
>
>The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
>
>The Hunger Argument
>
>Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
>million.
>
>Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
>Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
>
>Human beings in America: 243 million
>
<<snip unsubstantiated statistics>>
>
>The Ethical Argument
>
>Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000
>
>Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
>
>Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in
>U.S:slaughterhouse worker
>
>Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before
>slaughter.: 1 cent
>
>Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive
>
>
>
>The Survival Argument
>
>Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time
>winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
>
>Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex
>
>Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.
>
>
>Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
>-------------------------------
>Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet
>Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting
>
>'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.'
>--William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3
That does it! No more frog legs for me!
Committee Chairman of the Benevolence Society for the Fitting of
Prosthetics for Paraplegic Frogs,
Hector
Pastor Dave
Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:56:06 -0700, -Hector-
<Mel...@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:
Well, since my wife and I can't afford meat more than
once every two or three months, I don't have to worry
about it. But do we count that once a month poultry?
I mean, is chicken banned too? :)
>Committee Chairman of the Benevolence Society for the Fitting of
>Prosthetics for Paraplegic Frogs,
I'm sorry, I can't eat anything that sits in what looks
like the dirty, swampy coolant in my wife's car. Hey,
at least she has one now. God blessed us with that,
along with I guess, a reminder to preserve the swamp
lands in Florida. :)
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
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Pastor Dave
Thu, 12 Aug 2004 05:56:06 -0700, -Hector-
<Mel...@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:
>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:03:03 +0530, Jahnu <ja...@india.com> wrote:
Well, since my wife and I can't afford meat more than
once every two or three months, I don't have to worry
about it. But do we count that once a month poultry?
I mean, is chicken banned too? :)
>Committee Chairman of the Benevolence Society for the Fitting of
>Prosthetics for Paraplegic Frogs,
I'm sorry, I can't eat anything that sits in what looks
like the dirty, swampy coolant in my wife's car. Hey,
at least she has one now. God blessed us with that,
along with I guess, a reminder to preserve the swamp
lands in Florida. :)
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
http://christiananswers.net/q-sum/q-life026.html
-Hector-
I'm not sure. I assume that when in doubt one should consult
the PETA Guide to a Lackluster Cuisine, under the lengthy appendix of
verboten foods. :-)
>
>>Committee Chairman of the Benevolence Society for the Fitting of
>>Prosthetics for Paraplegic Frogs,
>
>I'm sorry, I can't eat anything that sits in what looks
>like the dirty, swampy coolant in my wife's car. Hey,
>at least she has one now. God blessed us with that,
>along with I guess, a reminder to preserve the swamp
>lands in Florida. :)
Kermit would be happy to hear it (that you don't find him
appetizing and that the Lord has graced your wife with a vehicle).
God bless,
Hector
Pastor Dave
<Mel...@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:
I have taken your words wisely under consideration. :)
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"Few paleontologists have, I think ever supposed that
fossils, by themselves, provide grounds for the
conclusion that evolution has occurred. An examination
of the work of those paleontologists who have been
particularly concerned with the relationship between
paleontology and evolutionary theory, for example that
of G. G. Simpson and S. J. Gould, reveals a mindfulness
of the fact that the record of evolution, like any
other historical record, must be construed within a
complex of particular and general preconceptions not
the least of which is the hypothesis that evolution has
occurred. ...The fossil record doesn't even provide any
evidence in support of Darwinian theory except in the
weak sense that the fossil record is compatible with
it, just as it is compatible with other evolutionary
theories, and revolutionary theories and special
creationist theories and even historical theories."
(Kitts, David B., "Search for the Holy Transformation,"
review of Evolution of Living Organisms, by Pierre-P.
Grassé, Paleobiology, vol. 5, 1979, pp. 353-354)
Immortalist
"Pastor Dave" <pastor...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hn3nh019qetbubk5g...@4ax.com...
> While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
> Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:33:19 -0700, -Hector-
> <Mel...@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:
> o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
>
> "Few paleontologists have, I think ever supposed that
> fossils, by themselves, provide grounds for the
> conclusion that evolution has occurred. An examination
> of the work of those paleontologists who have been
> particularly concerned with the relationship between
> paleontology and evolutionary theory, for example that
> of G. G. Simpson and S. J. Gould, reveals a mindfulness
> of the fact that the record of evolution, like any
> other historical record, must be construed within a
> complex of particular and general preconceptions not
> the least of which is the hypothesis that evolution has
> occurred. ...The fossil record doesn't even provide any
> evidence in support of Darwinian theory except in the
> weak sense that the fossil record is compatible with
> it, just as it is compatible with other evolutionary
> theories, and revolutionary theories and special
> creationist theories and even historical theories."
> (Kitts, David B., "Search for the Holy Transformation,"
> review of Evolution of Living Organisms, by Pierre-P.
> Grassé, Paleobiology, vol. 5, 1979, pp. 353-354)
>
OUR KIND by Marvin Harris 1989
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060919906/
MEAT: THE OPEN COUNTRY beckoned wich another resource. In the forest, animals
tend to be small, furtive, difficult to see. But the savanna teemed with visible
herds. From time to time a stick-carrying group of australopithecines would
encounter an infant gazelle or antelope that had strayed from the protection of
its mother and they would surround, seize, and eat it. Occasionally they would
also stumble upon the remains of a larger animal that had died from natural
causes or had been killed by the feline predators that lived off the herds.
Hooting and howling and waving their sticks, they would drive away the vultures
and jackals, rush in and rear off bits of decaying meat, and run to the nearest
clump of trees, ready to drop everything and seek safety in the branches if one
of the felines returned and interrupted their meal.
I confess that there is no archaeological evidence that such events ever
happened. But rhe behavior of chimpanzees and other primates, as well as our
kind's dietary preferences, leave little doubt that the ausrralopithecines had a
special fondness for meat. And as savanna-dwelling, tool-using animals, they had
a developed capacity and plenty of opportunity to scavenge and hunt. As for
seeking the safety of trees, we do have the fossil evidence of curved fingers and
toes and the chimpanzeelike long arms and short legs.
Not so long ago scientists believed that monkeys and apes were strict
vegetarians. After meticulous observation in the wild, most primates turned out
to be omnivores. Like humans, they ear both plant and animal foods. Being rather
small creatures, monkeys necessarily prey mostly on insects rather than on game.
And a significant amount of their insect eating is simply a natural by-product of
the consumption of leaves and fruit. When they encounter a leaf with a weevil
wrapped in it, or a fig with a worm in it, they do not spit out the intruder. If
anything, they spit out the leaf or fruit, a practice that produces a steady rain
ot half-chewed plant food as the troop progresses from tree to tree.
As among most human populations, monkeys usually eat only relatively small
amounts of animal food compared to plant food. This is not a matter of choice,
bur simply of the difficulties monkeys confront in obtaining a steady supply of
animal flesh. Studies in Namibia and Botswana show that baboons will stop eating
virtually everything else when insects swarm. They prefer animal matter first;
roots, seeds, fruits, and flowers second; and leaves and grass third. At certain
seasons of the year, they spend as much as 75 percent of their eating time on
insects. Several species of large monkeys not only consume insects but actually
hunt small game. My reconstruction of the australopithecine way of life gains
plausibility from the fact that the most accomplished hunters among monkeys
appear ro be grounddwelling baboons that live in open country. During a year of
observation near Gelgil, Kenya, Robert Harding observed forty-seven small
vertebrates being killed and eaten by baboons. The most common prey were infant
gazelles and antelopes. If mere baboons are capable of capturing infant gazelles
and antelopes, the early australopithecines cannot have been less capable.
Among extant nonhuman primates, chimpanzees are the most ardent meat eaters. The
time and effort expended m termiring and anting alone suggest the degree of their
fondness for animal flesh. And let us not forget the painful bites and stings
that they risk in order to get at these tidbits. Nor do chimpanzees confine their
pursuit of animal flesh to anting and termiting. They actively hunt and eat at
least twenty-three species of mammals, including several kinds of monkeys and
baboons, galagos, bush bucks, bush pigs, duikers, mice, rars, squirrels, shrews,
mongooses, and hyraxes. They also kill and eat chimpanzee and even human babies
if they get a chance. At Gombe, over the course of a decade, observers witnessed
the consumption of ninety-five small animals-mostly infant baboons, monkeys, and
bush pigs. This is only a partial accounting because the chimpanzees consumed
additional animals out of sight of the observers. Altogether, Gombe chimpanzees
devoted about 10 percent of their time spent on feeding to the pursuit and
consumption of game.
Chimpanzees usually hunt cooperatively and share their quarry with each other. In
fact, if a chimpanzee is unable to get others to join in, it will abandon the
hunt. Throughout the entire process of killing, distributing, and consuming prey
animals, they display an unusual level of social interaction and excitement.
During the hunt, anywhere from three to nine chimpanzees try to surround the prey
animal. They keep positioning and repositioning themselves for as long as an
hour, trying to cut off potential escape routes.
Both males and females hunt and consume meat. During an eight-year period, from
1974 to 1981, females captured or stole, and then ate, at least part of
forty-four prey animals, not counting another twenty-one prey animals that they
attacked or seized but were unable to hold on to. Males hunted more than females
and consumed more meat. Chimpanzees occasionally share plant foods, but they
always share meat unless the prey is captured by a solitary chimpanzee in the
forest. Meat-sharing often results from persistent "begging." The supplicant
holds an outstretched hand under the meat possessor's mouth, or parts the lips of
a meat-chewing companion. If these tactics fail, the supplicant may begin to
whimper and to express rage and frustration. Van Lawick-Goodall describes how a
young chimp named Mr. Worzle threw a tantrum when Goliath, a dominant male,
refused to share the body of a baby baboon with him. Mr. Worzle followed Goliath
from branch to branch, hand outstretched and whimpering. "When Goliath pushed
Worzle's hand away for the eleventh time, the lower-ranking male . . . hurled
himself backward off the branch, screaming and hitting wildly at the surrounding
vegetation. Goliath looked at him and then, with a great effort (using hands,
teeth, and one foot), tore his prey in two and handed the entire hindquarters to
Worzle."
OUR KIND by Marvin Harris 1989
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060919906/
>
>
Nityaram
Jahnu
Roger Pearse
> www.omjesus.net
>
> Jahnu <ja...@india.com> wrote in message news:<opglh0hg30hk8u2ea...@4ax.com>...
> > Jesus & vegetarianism
> > Beyond that there are strong arguments of a similar nature by many of
> > the Fathers of the early Church:
> >
> > "...How unworthy do you press the example of Christ as having come
> > eating and drinking into the service of your lusts: I think that He
> > who pronounced not the full, but the hungry and thirsty 'Blessed,' who
> > professed His work to be the completion of His Father's Will, I think
> > that he was wont to abstain, instructing them to labor for that 'Meat'
> > which lasts to eternal life, and enjoying in their common prayers
> > petition, not for flesh food but for bread only..." - Quintus
> > Septimius Tertullianus (AD 155).
This sounds very dubious. Tertullian did not advocate vegetarianism.
He wasn't even born until ca. AD 160.
[Various dubious 'quotes' snipped because I can't be bothered to look
for them in ccel.org/fathers2]
> > Besides that contemporary heathen observers describe the early
> > Christians as abstaining from meat:
> >
> > Pliny, Governor of Bithynia (where Peter preached) referred to the
> > early Christians in a letter to Trajan, the Roman Emperor, as a
> > ..."contagious superstition abstaining from flesh food..."
Nonsense. Pliny did write about the Christians (book 10, letter 96).
He did not say this, and the 'quote' is bogus.
> > Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD), stoic philosopher and tutor of Nero, describes
> > the Christians as "...a foreign cultus or superstition (under imperial
> > suspicion) who abstain from flesh food..."
Seneca did not write about the Christians at all. Note the 'flesh
food' phrase appears verbatim in all these -- I suspect the chap who
compiled this list inserted it himself in all of them.
> > And Josephus Flavius says about the early Christians: "...They
> > assemble before sunrising and speak not a word of profane matters but
> > put up certain prayers... and sit down together each one to a single
> > plate of one sort of innocent food..."
Nope. This is not Josephus at all, but another quote from Pliny's
letter X.96. It does not, as we see, discuss vegetarianism.
> > The scholar E.M. Szekely claims to have recovered and translated from
> > an old Aramaic scripture, ...
In view of the inability to get simple citations right, we need spend
no time on this.
> > Cardinal John Henry Newman (1801 - 90) says: ...
Newman was NOT a vegetarian.
> > Tolstoy and Dukhobor (Orthodox Russian Christian) were of the opinion
> > that meat-eating is against the tenets of Christianity.
Russian orthodoxy thinks otherwise.
> > His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya
> > of ISKCON (Hare Krishna Movement) concludes:
That it's OK to tell lies? Faugh!
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Rob Duncan
"Jahnu" <ja...@india.com>
>complete load of crap snipped<
If Jesus Christ didnt want people to eat meat, he would have said so.
Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.
Rob
Rob Duncan
"Jahnu" <ja...@india.com> wrote
>complete load of crap snipped<
Are Americans born obligated to feed the rest of the world?
Rob
Adam Sargant
news:W-adnVDTbpY...@gbronline.com...
>
> "Jahnu" <ja...@india.com> wrote
>
> >complete load of crap snipped<
>
> Are Americans born obligated to feed the rest of the world?
>
Maybe people are en-nobled by compassion in action
--
Adam Sargant
www.deep-mind.com
Rob Duncan
Rob
"Immortalist" <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:SuudnWzWv6e...@comcast.com...
Dave 忽帕
Vegetarians consider fish to be meat, right? (I'm thinking of the feeding of
the 5000.)
--
Dave 忽帕
"Rob Duncan" <robd...@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:UMudnQGfItz...@gbronline.com...
Dave 忽帕
Anybody recall the menu at the seder meal that was celebrated every
passover?
--
Dave 忽帕
Libertarius
Rob Duncan wrote:
===>Anyway, fish is better for your health.
And turkey breasts were hard to find in Judaea. -- L.
Immortalist
> Nice post.
>
A Homo erectus toolmaker squats on a stony ridge and searches the terrain
below him. Nearby he sees the rising smoke of the campfire and the hurrying
figures of the newly arrived band members as they drag in tree branches for
firewood and shelter. He listens to a familiar cacophony: the cracking of
wood, shouts, laughter, a steady murmur of primitive speech-vocal signals
delivered emotionally, perhaps a scattering of true words. His eyes quarter
along the more distant terrain, south across an expanse of wind-stunted
pines and copses to the deep-blue arc of the Mediterranean Sea. He thinks
briefly about what may lie beyond, on the other side. No hope of ever
knowing. It is mid-morning, one million years ago.
The band has been on the move for days. How many the tool-maker does not
know and cannot conceive. His days are hour-less, he has no concept of
years, and higher numbers are forever beyond him. But like all of his kind,
he senses the change of time in the daily passage of the sun and stars, in
the seasonal cycles of the grass and wildflowers and movement of game. These
matters he knows very well, and in them he is wise even by modern human
standards. They fill his thoughts now, after a sleepless night of dread.
Early in the evening before, as the light failed, the band was visited by a
pride of hunting lions. The lionesses circled the human bivouac briefly.
They crouched facing the huddled band, their tails switching lightly from
side to side, the telltale intention movements of the hungry predator. Then
inexplicably they rose in unison and left. But they did not travel far.
Through the night the band heard an occasional deep cough, a rustle of
disturbed shrubs and fallen branches here and there. The lions were still
hunting, now deterred by the smoldering campfire. The human watchers very
likely wondered what else might be out there moving in the night. Perhaps
the strange stumptailed cats with saberlike teeth, a vicious pack of hyenas,
and other, formless horrors belonging more to the imagination than to
reality, the forerunners of monsters and bogeymen. Better to have a
generalized fear of the dark and to shrink thrilled and apprehensive from
the unknown than to take time to learn and deal with each menace in turn. On
this night, deep in Homo erectus time, men occupy a paradoxical position
within the ecosystem. Their tools and organized movements are turning them
into the greatest predators of all time; yet their thin, slow bodies render
them prey for the most powerful of their carnivore rivals.
The toolmaker picks up a hammerstone in his right hand. It is a quartzite
pebble slightly larger than a clenched fist, tapered to a blunt edge.
Extending his left hand he selects a round unworked stone of equal size. As
he makes these first movements a group of children halt a game of
king-of-the-mountain and climb the slope to watch. The toolmaker hefts and
turns the two stones in his hands. He is judging, choosing, thinking of the
finished product, why it is needed, to whom it will be given, and how it
will be used. His mind at this instant is a flurry of competing
possibilities. He settles on a sequence of steps. Concepts of vision and
sound crowd through his consciousness in the form of a time series, like
labeled beads sliding along a string. Perhaps he links silent words with the
concepts that pass in review, so as to say roughly: "Strike . . . turn .. .
edge ... ax ... give .. . brother . .. horse." He will dress an ax to give
to his brother for the butchering of a horse. This Ur-language, if summoned,
is a poor accompaniment to the rich and fluid imagery of the concepts upon
which, in the course of human evolution, they are being grafted. A stunning
linguistic efflorescence will ensue sometime during the next million years.
The toolmaker holds the rough stone in his upturned palm and grips it
tightly with his fingers. He pulls his arm close to the chest, tenses, and
strikes down hard with the hammerstone. A chip flies to the side, leaving a
concave depression and a sharp ridge along the thin edge of the stone. In
the next hour the tool-maker repeats the process fifty times: turn and
examine, grip, and strike. With shorter, more precise blows he trims the
opposite sides into a double edge. In the end an almond-shaped hand ax
emerges. It is a fine example of the Acheulean industry, the mark of Homo
erectus culture, elegant in comparison with the crude choppers of Homo
habilis yet still far inferior to the splendid stone instruments later made
by Homo sapiens. For some reason the toolmaker chooses to stop at around
fifty percussions instead of proceeding to the hundred or more required for
a significantly more refined tool. Perhaps he cannot conceive of anything
better. His most ambitious fantasies cannot reach much further than the tool
he now cups in his hands.
The toolmaker descends to the camp, trailing his entourage of children. The
simple bowl-shaped shelters have been completed. A group of foragers is
leaving at this moment to search for tubers, berries, and small animals, and
with any luck to sight big game. There will be a sharing of food and
exchange of tools.
In several days the band will move on toward a winter rendezvous point.
There they will join a friendly group, composed of familiar faces. Some of
the adults will be recognized generically as kin. In the ancient hominoid
manner there will be an exchange of young females. The communication will be
intense, an emotional mixture of sounds and quick gestures. There may also
be some true words-short, distinctive sounds used as symbols and conveying
arbitrarily chosen meaning.
Some of the men will organize long-distance marches to hunt big game. Their
parties will move with growing circumspection as they approach a distant
stream that runs to the sea. There lies the territorial boundaries of
strangers. During vicious raids those aliens have killed members of the
band, and a few have fallen in turn. Although they look the same (and are in
fact Homo erectus), these creatures seem wicked and not truly human. They
are almost as little known as the unseen forces patrolling the night. If
they could be destroyed or driven away, the entire band would experience
indescribable relief and joy. There would be an urge to stripe the body with
ochre and to dance...
...When facing most larger enemies, a rattlesnake coils, draws its neck and
head into an S-shaped striking posture near the center of the coil, and
vibrates its rattle. If the adversary is a kingsnake, a particularly
dangerous predator on other kinds of snakes, the rattlesnake pulls its head
beneath the coils and slaps at the intruder with an extended loop of its
body. When pursuing prey of its own, such as a mouse, it neither coils nor
rattles but strikes silently from any convenient position. Finally, two male
rattlesnakes fighting over access to females engage in neck wrestling.
Although one could kill the other with a single venomous strike, they do
not. The two snakes settle the dispute with a ritualized form of fighting
that usually gives the advantage to the larger and stronger contender.
The rattlesnake illustrates several important features in the evolution of
aggression...
Promethean Fire - Reflections on the Origins of Mind
Charles J. Lumsdem - E.O. Wilson - 1983
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1583484256/
Brenda G. Kent
Bren
--
Jahnu
You really are braindead, aren't you?
One question, how does it feel like having a retard for a president?
Pastor Dave
<Reanima...@yahoo.com> screamed out:
What does speculation have to do with proving it ever
happened?
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
Don't put a question mark where God put a period.
Just Like You
>
> "Jahnu" <ja...@india.com> wrote
>
> >complete load of crap snipped<
>
> Are Americans born obligated to feed the rest of the world?
No one is obligated to do anything, until they are. IOW, you decide when you
are obligated to do something. If you felt compassion for the suffering of
others you would feel obligated to help. Americans apparently do not.
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
Just Like You
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
"Rob Duncan" <robd...@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:ErGdnXBWO7I...@gbronline.com...
Just Like You
news:93n2i05aallduhvfa...@4ax.com...
'Retard' is the only negative word that does not apply to GW Bush. He is an
intelligent, egotistical, self-serving, blasphemous, homicidal bastard,
until he is not.
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
Immortalist
Its a dramatization for the movie version of the day in the life of you the
monkee.
Immortalist
"Just Like You" <everyhi...@att.net> wrote in message
news:EknUc.97574$vN3....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> You are saying that we should eat meat because chimps do?
> --
Our bodies may be adapted to be meat eaters OR vegetarians of both. Its the worm
in the apple that is the Apostrophe;
http://www.science.uva.nl/~robbert/zappa/files/jpg/Apostrophe.jpg
Crowfoot
> Why argue? why the need to "win"?
>
> Bren
Vegetarianism seems to make some people incredibly bellicose and
authoritarian, which suggests that it's not a whole lot better than
eating anything else.
C
--
Crow
Jahnu
<Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Our bodies may be adapted to be meat eaters OR vegetarians of both. Its the worm
>in the apple that is the Apostrophe;
Here is a chart done by A.D. Andrews in "Fit Food for men",
(Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970) that shows humans to possess
all traits common with the herbivores and none, except the placement
of the eyes, with the carnivores of nature. What do you think that
suggests:
MEAT EATER PLANT EATER HUMAN
has claws no claws no claws
no skin pores; perspires through perspires through
perspires through skin pores skin pores
tongue.
sharp, pointed no sharp, pointed no sharp, pointed
front teeth front teeth front teeth
small salivary well-developed well-developed
glands in the salivary glands salivary glands
mouth
acid saliva; alkaline saliva; alkaline sal-
no ptyalin much ptyalin iva; much
enzyme enzyme ptyalin enz.
no flat back flat back molar flat back
molar teeth teeth molar teeth
much strong stomach acid stomach acid
hydrochlorid 10 times weaker 10 times weaker
acid in stomach than meat eaters than meat eaters
intestinal tract intestinal tract 6 intestinal tract
only 3 times times body length 6 times body length
body length
www.iskcon.com www.krishna.dk www.harekrishna.dk
www.in2-mec.com www.krishna.com
Jahnu
I think you are giving him too much credit. The way you are describing
him he would be required to have at least a minimum of brain
substance. I think he is just a mindless puppet in the hands of people
who are intelligent, egotistical, self-serving, blasphemous, homicidal
bastards, until they are not.
Rico
dwelling animals (excluding insects) and all aquatic mammals (Dolphin and
whale are meat, shark is fish) and amphibians (frogs, salamandars). And you
are correct in the next message you posted in that lamb is part of the seder
meal and there is documentation in the bible that Jesus ate the seder meal
on at least 2 occasions, (the time he got left at the temple was passover,
and the week of His crucifixion)
"Dave 忽帕" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:LMdUc.1314$nh5...@news01.roc.ny...
Immortalist
> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:19:44 -0700, "Immortalist"
> <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Our bodies may be adapted to be meat eaters OR vegetarians of both. Its the
worm
> >in the apple that is the Apostrophe;
>
>
> Here is a chart done by A.D. Andrews in "Fit Food for men",
> (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970) that shows humans to possess
> all traits common with the herbivores and none, except the placement
> of the eyes, with the carnivores of nature. What do you think that
> suggests:
>
It suggests the possibility that we recently evolved the ability to be both meat
eaters and plant eaters when we were mostly plant eaters long before that. But we
still ate alot of meat but didn't need to hunt the worms and micro-organisms.
Before that we were like tree shrews and before that a carnivorus critter like a
rat that lived at night. The saga of evolving adaptions, whowzyyy.
Rob Duncan
What are you talking about? He is certainly much smarter than you... though
that isnt saying much.
Rob
Rob Duncan
Youre an idiot. He was a fighter pilot, something you could never dream of
being.
Rob
Rob Duncan
"Just Like You" <everyhi...@att.net> wrote in message
news:JjnUc.97569$vN3....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "Rob Duncan" <robd...@gbronline.com> wrote in message
> news:W-adnVDTbpY...@gbronline.com...
> >
> > "Jahnu" <ja...@india.com> wrote
> >
> > >complete load of crap snipped<
> >
> > Are Americans born obligated to feed the rest of the world?
>
> No one is obligated to do anything, until they are.
No. There is no "until."
> IOW, you decide when you
> are obligated to do something.
Nobody is ever obligated to do anything.
> If you felt compassion for the suffering of
> others you would feel obligated to help.
No, you wouldnt. Why does empathy impart obligation? Nobody feels our
pain more than G-d, yet he doesnt feel the slightest obligation to relieve
our suffering, and you expect more of mere mortals? What a fool you are.
> Americans apparently do not.
> Jim Scannell
Right. Americans, and every other nation on earth, do NOT feel obligated to
take care of those outside of their borders. They dont feel obligated,
because they are not obligated. It is not anothers responcibility to take
care of strangers, its your responcibility/obligation to take care of your
family and children, that is all.
Rob
Rob Duncan
"Rico" <hog...@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote
> > > >complete load of crap snipped<
> > >
> > > If Jesus Christ didnt want people to eat meat, he would have said so.
> > > Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rob
Btw, all animals, fish, fowl, or land mammal... are meat. Dont try and skip
out of this using semantics. If Jesus Christ (G-d) didnt want Man to eat
meat he would have SAID SO!
HE DID NOT!
He wouldnt have left it a matter up to debate and speculation. He wasnt a
moron like these idiots claiming that he was a vegetarian... and that he
wanted us to be vegetarians. Damn some people are stupid. Never ever, not
once, did he imply we shouldnt eat all the meat we like. What a moronic
argument these fools are making.
Rob
HB
> Vegetarians don't consider fish to be meat.
Last time I checked my garden the fish plants were doing quite well,
I should be able to pick a large crop of fish off the vines this year,
enough to last all winter.
Jahnu
<robd...@gbronline.com> wrote:
>
>"Rico" <hog...@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote
>
>> > > >complete load of crap snipped<
>> > >
>> > > If Jesus Christ didnt want people to eat meat, he would have said so.
>> > > Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Rob
>
>Btw, all animals, fish, fowl, or land mammal... are meat. Dont try and skip
>out of this using semantics. If Jesus Christ (G-d) didnt want Man to eat
>meat he would have SAID SO!
How do you know he didn't?
>HE DID NOT!
According to old gnostic texts he did.
>He wouldnt have left it a matter up to debate and speculation. He wasnt a
>moron like these idiots claiming that he was a vegetarian... and that he
>wanted us to be vegetarians. Damn some people are stupid. Never ever, not
>once, did he imply we shouldnt eat all the meat we like. What a moronic
>argument these fools are making.
You must be deluded if you really think the Bible represents Jesus
purely.
Pastor Dave
<Reanima...@yahoo.com> screamed out:
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected
the Sermon on the Mount... The world has achieved
brilliance without conscience. Ours is a world of
nuclear giants and ethical infants."
- General Omar Bradley
Pastor Dave
<ja...@india.com> screamed out:
>On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:19:44 -0700, "Immortalist"
><Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Our bodies may be adapted to be meat eaters OR vegetarians of both. Its the worm
>>in the apple that is the Apostrophe;
>
>
>Here is a chart done by A.D. Andrews in "Fit Food for men",
>(Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970) that shows humans to possess
>all traits common with the herbivores and none, except the placement
>of the eyes, with the carnivores of nature. What do you think that
>suggests:
>
>
>MEAT EATER PLANT EATER HUMAN
>
>has claws no claws no claws
Panda.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"Most christians testify to the truth that their
own lives were a hell until they placed their lives
in the hands of the Creator. Heaven for them is
being in the presence of that Creator and now their
lives are filled with a love and peace that was not
there before. They feel they have found a door out
of the hell they were in and a responsability to
show others where that door is. This often comes
across to the non-believer as "looking down" on
them, but as a wise man once said... 'We're just
beggars showing others where the bread is'.
- Eric Fisher
Pastor Dave
<Reanima...@yahoo.com> screamed out:
>
>"Jahnu" <ja...@india.com> wrote in message
>news:rca5i0pndu2uki2o9...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:19:44 -0700, "Immortalist"
>> <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Our bodies may be adapted to be meat eaters OR vegetarians of both. Its the
>worm
>> >in the apple that is the Apostrophe;
>>
>>
>> Here is a chart done by A.D. Andrews in "Fit Food for men",
>> (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970) that shows humans to possess
>> all traits common with the herbivores and none, except the placement
>> of the eyes, with the carnivores of nature. What do you think that
>> suggests:
>>
>
>It suggests the possibility that we recently evolved the ability to be both meat
>eaters and plant eaters when we were mostly plant eaters long before that.
Gee and what is it that the Bible says? Oh yeah,
that's right. Man did not eat meat after the Creation,
but rather, ate meat after the Flood.
Evolutionists see the Bible being confirmed by science
and yet deny it. Thus they prove that they are not
open to science supporting the Biblical account, no
matter how much scientific information comes their way.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
Evolution has never been proven and there
is no such thing as a clear progression of fossils,
showing that man came from anything else.
- Pastor Dave Raymond
Pastor Dave
<hog...@bigpond.net.au.au> screamed out:
>Vegetarians don't consider fish to be meat.
An women who have sex with men before marriage don't
consider themselves whores either. So what's your
point? :) Those vegetarian meat whores! :)
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"When we descend to details we can prove that no one
species has changed (i.e., we cannot prove that a
single species has changed): nor can we prove that
the supposed changes are beneficial, which is the
groundwork of the theory. Nor can we explain why
some species have changed and others have not.
The latter case seems to me hardly more difficult
to understand precisely and in detail than the former
case of supposed change" - Darwin, 1863.
Immortalist
Evidence from biology indicates that meat eating and vegetable eating are traits
that can be influenced by genetic mutations. Like limbs can evolve from fins into
legs and legs can evolve back into fins. This is what the available evidence
shows about whales which were once land animals with legs which were once sea
animals with fins.
Immortalist
The speculation is based upon available evidence woven into a "coherent theory"
which constitutes "undefeated justification." Of course this theory can change at
any time, but until then the burden is on the claiment who questions the evidence
the tale was based upon.
Pastor Dave
<Reanima...@yahoo.com> screamed out:
It isn't a theory, since there are no facts behind it.
The fact that you admit that it can change at any time,
proves this. Facts don't change.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"Satan subtracts and divides.
God adds and multiplies."
Pastor Dave
<Reanima...@yahoo.com> screamed out:
Now you're back to speculation. There is zero evidence
to support what you claim and whales never walked on
land, nor can you prove they did.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"We have grasped the mystery of the atom and rejected
the Sermon on the Mount... The world has achieved
brilliance without conscience. Ours is a world of
nuclear giants and ethical infants."
- General Omar Bradley
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
Just Like You
> I think you are giving him too much credit. The way you are describing
> him he would be required to have at least a minimum of brain
> substance. I think he is just a mindless puppet in the hands of people
> who are intelligent, egotistical, self-serving, blasphemous, homicidal
> bastards, until they are not.
I've been trumped on this argument before. The fact is that he is well
educated and did very well in school. That gives credence to high
intelligence.
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
Just Like You
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
"Rob Duncan" <robd...@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:ZemdnS0nUqv...@gbronline.com...
Just Like You
>
> "Rico" <hog...@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote
>
> > > > >complete load of crap snipped<
> > > >
> > > > If Jesus Christ didnt want people to eat meat, he would have said
so.
> > > > Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rob
>
> Btw, all animals, fish, fowl, or land mammal... are meat. Dont try and
skip
> out of this using semantics. If Jesus Christ (G-d) didnt want Man to eat
> meat he would have SAID SO!
He already said enough to get himself killed. I think he said enough. No one
would have listened to him if he were to tell people not to eat their main
source of food- fish. Anyway, there are a lot of things that Jesus did not
say and that does not make them any less important. I tell Bible thumpers
who refuse to read other spiritual books because they think that all the
answers are in the Bible that if that were true then all college professors
would use it as their text book. All the answers are NOT in the Bible, and
Jesus did not say everything that a highly evolved person would do or say.
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
Just Like You
> While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
> Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:36:25 +0530, Jahnu
> <ja...@india.com> screamed out:
>
> >On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:19:44 -0700, "Immortalist"
> ><Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Our bodies may be adapted to be meat eaters OR vegetarians of both. Its
the worm
> >>in the apple that is the Apostrophe;
> >
> >
> >Here is a chart done by A.D. Andrews in "Fit Food for men",
> >(Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970) that shows humans to possess
> >all traits common with the herbivores and none, except the placement
> >of the eyes, with the carnivores of nature. What do you think that
> >suggests:
> >
> >
> >MEAT EATER PLANT EATER HUMAN
> >
> >has claws no claws no claws
>
> Panda.
There are many animals that have claws that do not eat meat. Koalas are
another.
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
Jahnu
<everyhi...@att.net> wrote:
>> >MEAT EATER PLANT EATER HUMAN
>> >
>> >has claws no claws no claws
>>
>> Panda.
>
>There are many animals that have claws that do not eat meat. Koalas are
>another.
That may be, but the conclusion is still that humans have all
physiological traits common with herbivore, and none with carnivore.
Jahnu
<everyhi...@att.net> wrote:
>"Jahnu" <ja...@india.com> wrote in message
>> I think you are giving him too much credit. The way you are describing
>> him he would be required to have at least a minimum of brain
>> substance. I think he is just a mindless puppet in the hands of people
>> who are intelligent, egotistical, self-serving, blasphemous, homicidal
>> bastards, until they are not.
>
>I've been trumped on this argument before. The fact is that he is well
>educated and did very well in school. That gives credence to high
>intelligence.
I doubt it. I never saw anyone come out of the modern educational
system with the ability for independent, thoughtful thinking intact.
It is my experience that the more highly educated people are in the
conventional sense the more stupid and arrogant they become.
Brenda G. Kent
If you eat fish..you are not a vegetarian I figure.
Bren
--
blacknblue
I seriously doubt he is as stupid as you think. He went to
Yale...Where did you go? JustLikeYou got it right. He is an egotist,
evangelical con-man... and when it comes to serving the needs of
mankind as a whole he is a complete failure...So in that respect he IS
a "Retard"...
Crowfoot
highly desireable. The less poking around you have to do for roots and
leaves to eat, the more time you have for loafing, mating, tending your
young, and developing a culture. Hunter-gatherer bands in the Afrcian
deserts of the south have been observed to have a whole hell of a lot
more leisure time (which they put into telling stories and socializing)
than their agricultural neighbors do. Agriculture is associated with
the rise of authoritarian city-states, because it's easier to store (and
hoard) grain than meat, and people tied to their land by the necessities
of tilling, planting, and harvesting can't up and walk away into a
sustainable life on their own the way hunters can when some Big Man gets
other men to help him grab the grain (as "taxes" or tributes to the
gods) and use control of it to control the population.
Agriculture bred slavery, in fact, and still does in many parts of the
world. Meat raising brings its own evils, but don't imagine that a
plant diet comes without heavy social costs too. There is literally no
free lunch.
C
In article <ErGdnXBWO7I...@gbronline.com>, "Rob Duncan"
<robd...@gbronline.com> wrote:
> Nice post.
>
>
> Rob
>
> "Immortalist" <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:SuudnWzWv6e...@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Pastor Dave" <pastor...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:hn3nh019qetbubk5g...@4ax.com...
> > > While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
> > > Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:33:19 -0700, -Hector-
> > > <Mel...@Dithryrambic.net> screamed out:
> >
> > > o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
> > >
> > > "Few paleontologists have, I think ever supposed that
> > > fossils, by themselves, provide grounds for the
> > > conclusion that evolution has occurred. An examination
> > > of the work of those paleontologists who have been
> > > particularly concerned with the relationship between
> > > paleontology and evolutionary theory, for example that
> > > of G. G. Simpson and S. J. Gould, reveals a mindfulness
> > > of the fact that the record of evolution, like any
> > > other historical record, must be construed within a
> > > complex of particular and general preconceptions not
> > > the least of which is the hypothesis that evolution has
> > > occurred. ...The fossil record doesn't even provide any
> > > evidence in support of Darwinian theory except in the
> > > weak sense that the fossil record is compatible with
> > > it, just as it is compatible with other evolutionary
> > > theories, and revolutionary theories and special
> > > creationist theories and even historical theories."
> > > (Kitts, David B., "Search for the Holy Transformation,"
> > > review of Evolution of Living Organisms, by Pierre-P.
> > > Grassé, Paleobiology, vol. 5, 1979, pp. 353-354)
> > >
> >
> > OUR KIND by Marvin Harris 1989
> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060919906/
> >
> > MEAT: THE OPEN COUNTRY beckoned wich another resource. In the forest,
> animals
> > tend to be small, furtive, difficult to see. But the savanna teemed
> > with
> visible
> > herds. From time to time a stick-carrying group of australopithecines
> would
> > encounter an infant gazelle or antelope that had strayed from the
> protection of
> > its mother and they would surround, seize, and eat it. Occasionally
> > they
> would
> > also stumble upon the remains of a larger animal that had died from
> natural
> > causes or had been killed by the feline predators that lived off the
> herds.
> > Hooting and howling and waving their sticks, they would drive away the
> vultures
> > and jackals, rush in and rear off bits of decaying meat, and run to the
> nearest
> > clump of trees, ready to drop everything and seek safety in the
> > branches
> if one
> > of the felines returned and interrupted their meal.
> >
> > I confess that there is no archaeological evidence that such events
> > ever
> > happened. But rhe behavior of chimpanzees and other primates, as well
> > as
> our
> > kind's dietary preferences, leave little doubt that the
> > ausrralopithecines
> had a
> > special fondness for meat. And as savanna-dwelling, tool-using animals,
> they had
> > a developed capacity and plenty of opportunity to scavenge and hunt. As
> for
> > seeking the safety of trees, we do have the fossil evidence of curved
> fingers and
> > toes and the chimpanzeelike long arms and short legs.
> >
> > Not so long ago scientists believed that monkeys and apes were strict
> > vegetarians. After meticulous observation in the wild, most primates
> turned out
> > to be omnivores. Like humans, they ear both plant and animal foods.
> > Being
> rather
> > small creatures, monkeys necessarily prey mostly on insects rather than
> > on
> game.
> > And a significant amount of their insect eating is simply a natural
> by-product of
> > the consumption of leaves and fruit. When they encounter a leaf with a
> weevil
> > wrapped in it, or a fig with a worm in it, they do not spit out the
> intruder. If
> > anything, they spit out the leaf or fruit, a practice that produces a
> steady rain
> > ot half-chewed plant food as the troop progresses from tree to tree.
> >
> > As among most human populations, monkeys usually eat only relatively
> > small
> > amounts of animal food compared to plant food. This is not a matter of
> choice,
> > bur simply of the difficulties monkeys confront in obtaining a steady
> supply of
> > animal flesh. Studies in Namibia and Botswana show that baboons will
> > stop
> eating
> > virtually everything else when insects swarm. They prefer animal matter
> first;
> > roots, seeds, fruits, and flowers second; and leaves and grass third.
> > At
> certain
> > seasons of the year, they spend as much as 75 percent of their eating
> > time
> on
> > insects. Several species of large monkeys not only consume insects but
> actually
> > hunt small game. My reconstruction of the australopithecine way of life
> gains
> > plausibility from the fact that the most accomplished hunters among
> monkeys
> > appear ro be grounddwelling baboons that live in open country. During a
> year of
> > observation near Gelgil, Kenya, Robert Harding observed forty-seven
> > small
> > vertebrates being killed and eaten by baboons. The most common prey
> > were
> infant
> > gazelles and antelopes. If mere baboons are capable of capturing infant
> gazelles
> > and antelopes, the early australopithecines cannot have been less
> > capable.
> >
> > Among extant nonhuman primates, chimpanzees are the most ardent meat
> eaters. The
> > time and effort expended m termiring and anting alone suggest the
> > degree
> of their
> > fondness for animal flesh. And let us not forget the painful bites and
> stings
> > that they risk in order to get at these tidbits. Nor do chimpanzees
> confine their
> > pursuit of animal flesh to anting and termiting. They actively hunt and
> eat at
> > least twenty-three species of mammals, including several kinds of
> > monkeys
> and
> > baboons, galagos, bush bucks, bush pigs, duikers, mice, rars,
> > squirrels,
> shrews,
> > mongooses, and hyraxes. They also kill and eat chimpanzee and even
> > human
> babies
> > if they get a chance. At Gombe, over the course of a decade, observers
> witnessed
> > the consumption of ninety-five small animals-mostly infant baboons,
> monkeys, and
> > bush pigs. This is only a partial accounting because the chimpanzees
> consumed
> > additional animals out of sight of the observers. Altogether, Gombe
> chimpanzees
> > devoted about 10 percent of their time spent on feeding to the pursuit
> > and
> > consumption of game.
> >
> > Chimpanzees usually hunt cooperatively and share their quarry with each
> other. In
> > fact, if a chimpanzee is unable to get others to join in, it will
> > abandon
> the
> > hunt. Throughout the entire process of killing, distributing, and
> consuming prey
> > animals, they display an unusual level of social interaction and
> excitement.
> > During the hunt, anywhere from three to nine chimpanzees try to
> > surround
> the prey
> > animal. They keep positioning and repositioning themselves for as long
> > as
> an
> > hour, trying to cut off potential escape routes.
> >
> > Both males and females hunt and consume meat. During an eight-year
> > period,
> from
> > 1974 to 1981, females captured or stole, and then ate, at least part of
> > forty-four prey animals, not counting another twenty-one prey animals
> > that
> they
> > attacked or seized but were unable to hold on to. Males hunted more
> > than
> females
> > and consumed more meat. Chimpanzees occasionally share plant foods, but
> they
> > always share meat unless the prey is captured by a solitary chimpanzee
> > in
> the
> > forest. Meat-sharing often results from persistent "begging." The
> supplicant
> > holds an outstretched hand under the meat possessor's mouth, or parts
> > the
> lips of
> > a meat-chewing companion. If these tactics fail, the supplicant may
> > begin
> to
> > whimper and to express rage and frustration. Van Lawick-Goodall
> > describes
> how a
> > young chimp named Mr. Worzle threw a tantrum when Goliath, a dominant
> male,
> > refused to share the body of a baby baboon with him. Mr. Worzle
> > followed
> Goliath
> > from branch to branch, hand outstretched and whimpering. "When Goliath
> pushed
> > Worzle's hand away for the eleventh time, the lower-ranking male . . .
> hurled
> > himself backward off the branch, screaming and hitting wildly at the
> surrounding
> > vegetation. Goliath looked at him and then, with a great effort (using
> hands,
> > teeth, and one foot), tore his prey in two and handed the entire
> hindquarters to
> > Worzle."
> >
> > OUR KIND by Marvin Harris 1989
> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060919906/
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--
Crow
Crowfoot
<robd...@gbronline.com> wrote:
You've swallowed his line, then? He was a playboy frat kid, playing
at military training until it no longer suited him (because all of a
sudden they started testing pilots for drugs, and your hero was a
party kind of guy. Read a little more widely instead of just gulping
down the partisan pap they try to feed us on Fox news. You're being
made a fool of, and you deserve better. We all do.
C
--
Crow
Jahnu
Vegetarians don'teat meat, fish or eggs
Vegans don't eat meat, fish or eggs or milk products.
Some vegetarians eat eggs or fish, but they are vegetarians in the
strict sense of the word.
Jahnu
>Yep; no way around it, meat is the most dense protein source, so it's
>highly desireable. The less poking around you have to do for roots and
>leaves to eat, the more time you have for loafing, mating, tending your
>young, and developing a culture.
Right, nice culture, the slaughterhouse Macdonalds culture is. A real
benefit to the world.
>Agriculture bred slavery, in fact, and still does in many parts of the
>world.
Like the industrial revolution.
>Meat raising brings its own evils, but don't imagine that a
>plant diet comes without heavy social costs too. There is literally no
>free lunch.
There is nothing as evil and destructive for the planet as the meat
industry.
HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
The Hunger Argument
Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
million.
Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
Human beings in America: 243 million
Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by
U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99
How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20.OOO
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165
Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16
The Environmental Argument
Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from
fossil fuels.
Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free
diet: 50 times more
Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising:
85
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce
meat-centered diet: 260 million
Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador,
Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds
Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador,
Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S.
housecat.
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55
sq.ft.
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical
rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year
The Cancer Argument
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week
vs. less than once a week: 4 times
For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or
more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs.
sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times
The Natural Resources Argument
Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.:
livestock portion.
Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to
float a destroyer.
Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25
Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500
Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not
subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound
Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no
longer subsidized: 89 dollars
Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a
meat-centered diet: 13
Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260
Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million
Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient
factory farming of meat: 34.5
Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8
Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present
meat-centered diet: 33
The Cholesterol Argument
Number of U.S. medical schools: 125
Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30
Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four
years in medical school: 25 hours
Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack
How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds
Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc.
Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc.
Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood
cholesterol if it is: normal
Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your
blood cholesterol is 'normal': over 50 perc.
The Antibiotic Argument
Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in
1960: 13
Percentage resistant in 1988: 91
Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of
antibiotics to livestock: ban
Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding
of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support
The Pesticide Argument
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains:
1
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits:
4
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy
products: 23
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55
Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs.
non meat-eating: 35 times higher
What USDA tells us: meat is inspected
Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin
chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004
The Ethical Argument
Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000
Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in U.S:
slaughterhouse worker
Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before
slaughter.: 1 cent
Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive
The Survival Argument
Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time
winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex
Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.
Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
-------------------------------
Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet
Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting
'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.'
--William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3
-Hector-
>On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 01:24:13 -0600, Crowfoot <suz...@swcp.com> wrote:
<<snipped at my pleasure>>
>
>There is nothing as evil and destructive for the planet as the meat
>industry.
>
Do you care to ask the right questions?
>HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
>
>The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
>
>The Hunger Argument
>
>Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
>million.
>
>Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
>Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
>
What is the projected statistic of the number of people who
will die of starvation in the US this year? (What is the source of
the statistic?)
Do independent autonomous nations have a responsibility for
their own agriculture? How easy is it to export grain to foreign
countries? Are there tariff concerns? Environmental concerns? Do
some countries discourage grain imports from the U.S? Who pays for
transportation and processing costs? Are there any international
treaties that influence the export of grain? What is grain longevity
and does this factor influence grain exports to other countries? Are
grains subject to mold or other degenerative agents? Does this
influence grain exports? Does the U.S. have a grain surplus? If U.S.
agriculture does enjoy an annual grain surplus then why any necessity
to curtail the beef and meat industries?
>Human beings in America: 243 million
>
>Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by
>U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion
>
>Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
>
Sweet corn?
>Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
>
Grain corn? Are the two being summed together?
"About 75 percent of the grain corn produced in the United States is
fed to livestock. In hog feeding, whole ears may be used. For other
livestock and poultry, and some hog feeding, kernels are removed from
the cob by machinery and are often partially ground before feeding.
About half of the feeding is done on the farms where the corn is
produced."
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/Crops/Corn.html
Do you like your milk? Cheese? Ice Cream? Cottage Cheese?
>Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
>
>Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99
>
How much wheat, rice, and barley is grown in the U.S, and how
much of the same is consumed by the livestock?
>How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds
>
How frequently does a child starve to death in the U.S?
>Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20.OOO
>
>Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165
>
>Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
>
How much farmland is tillable and capable of producing grain
corn [as opposed to sweet corn], oats, or soybeans?
>Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16
>
Pounds of grain? Such as rice, wheat, and barley?
>
>The Environmental Argument
>
>Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
>
>Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from
>fossil fuels.
>
Let's not forget bovine flatulence.
>Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free
>diet: 50 times more
>
What volume of fossil fuels are required to raise and harvest
grain? The same as necessary to produce grain for livestock, maybe?
Who devised this statistic? What volume of fossil fuels are required
to transport tons of grain overseas? What fuels are synthesized from
grains?
>Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
>
>Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising:
>85
>
If the figure is accurate, which I doubt, is this because
topsoil loss is a function of agricultural activities, tilling, and
planting? Perhaps the U.S. should stop producing grain altogether?
>Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce
>meat-centered diet: 260 million
>
>Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador,
>Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds
>
>Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador,
>Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S.
>housecat.
>
>Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55
>sq.ft.
>
>Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical
>rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year
>
>
>
>The Cancer Argument
>
>Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week
>vs. less than once a week: 4 times
>
>For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times
>
>Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or
>more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times
>
>Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs.
>sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times
>
>
>The Natural Resources Argument
>
>Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.:
>livestock portion.
>
Water is not a renewable resource? How many people the U.S.
are thirsting to death? Is all water used by "livestock" processed
water?
<<remainder of bogus and skewed statistics to be subject to rejoinder
at my convenience>>
Wasn't there a recent imbroglio at the NY Times over plagiarized,
bowdlerized, and fictionalized news reporting?
And this is a trustworthy source of sound statistical data?
Propaganda only has a better friend in Michael Moore,
Enjoying a grain-feed, meat-lover's pizza,
Hector
Just Like You
news:0o39i0pkcqn6ekq0d...@4ax.com...
> What is grain longevity
> and does this factor influence grain exports to other countries? Are
> grains subject to mold or other degenerative agents? Does this
> influence grain exports?
Wheat is known to last for thousands of years in storage, as edible wheat
has been found in archeological digs. Wheat and honey are the two foods
believed to never go bad when stored correctly. The U.S. is guilty of
burning thousands of tons of wheat to raise prices for farmers.
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
Ayin
Luke 13.22,23 And He said unto His disciples. "Therefore I say unto
you, Take no heed for your life, WHAT YE SHALL EAT; neither for the
body, what ye shall put on. The life is more than MEAT and the body is
more than raiment."
Ayin
> "Jahnu" <ja...@india.com>
>
> >complete load of crap snipped<
>
> If Jesus Christ didnt want people to eat meat, he would have said so.
> Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.
>
>
> Rob
Luke 12.42 And the Lord said "Who then is that faithful and wise
steward whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give
them thier PORTION OF MEAT in due season."
-Hector-
My rejoinder concerns grain in general, not simply wheat. The
general point is that there are a myriad of considerations in the
export of grain internationally, especially to Third World countries
that are susceptible to hunger and famine. It is not a thing as
simple as bandying about broad, general, irrelevant, and skewed
statistical data.
As far as your accusation about 'wheat burning,' I wouldn't
begin to accept that as a factual statement until I had corroborating
information from more than one legitimate source, relevancy
notwithstanding.
Skeptical till the cows come home,
Hector
-Hector-
<everyhi...@att.net> wrote:
<<snipped for focus>>
> All the answers are NOT in the Bible, and
>Jesus did not say everything that a highly evolved person would do or say.
What is a "highly evolved person"?
Highly involved,
Hector
Just Like You
> My rejoinder concerns grain in general, not simply wheat. The
> general point is that there are a myriad of considerations in the
> export of grain internationally, especially to Third World countries
> that are susceptible to hunger and famine. It is not a thing as
> simple as bandying about broad, general, irrelevant, and skewed
> statistical data.
I understand that the hardest part is the distribution to the hungry since
the malicias want to sell aid for arms.
> As far as your accusation about 'wheat burning,' I wouldn't
> begin to accept that as a factual statement until I had corroborating
> information from more than one legitimate source, relevancy
> notwithstanding.
I am confident that you could find a government source if you wished to
dispel your ignorance.
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
Just Like You
The way I would describe a highly evolved person is one that respects all
life as himself/herself, and does not mistake form for life. A HEB (highly
evolved being) knows that life expresses itself through form but the form is
not the animating life. A HEB knows that there is only One Life, the essence
of all that is. If you know Yourself You know that You are not the thinker,
but the observer beyond. Most humans believe they are the thinker because
they have a developed ego that has taken control of their identities. The
true Self is the impersonal One Life. When you transcend your mind You will
realize that the entire Universe is inside of Yourself and was created by
Yourself. There is not anything in the Universe that You did not put there.
Also, a HEB knows that the past and future do not exist. They are created
and sustained by the mind. Only the Eternal Now exists and only the Eternal
Now will ever exist. It is always Now. Always has been, always will be.
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
blacknblue
wrong. Most yogis agree that he was enlightened. Most of the
writings of the Prophets, Saints, Yogis have contridictions to each
other...which implies that highly evolved/enlightened beings preach
more than one path to Freedom. When you get into persons who say
"there is onewayonly to Yoga" and "I know the way the only
way"...therein is the sign of a false prophet.
Reasons for different teachings of the prophets is due to the times
they lived in. There was a different emphasis for that needed to be
heard for each time period they lived in...
==============================Different
Ages====================================
One Kalpa, a day in the Mind of God(universal consciousness), is made
up of four cycles (aka yugas) and/or ages known as the:
The Age of Wisdom(Golden)/ Satya or Krita Yuga
The Age of Ritual(Silver)/Treta Yuga
The Age of Doubt(Bronze)/ Dvapara Yuga
The Age of Conflict(iron)/ Kali Yuga
http://www.halexandria.org/dward030.htm
==============================================================================
Jahnu
wrote:
>I seriously doubt he is as stupid as you think. He went to
>Yale...Where did you go?
I left school when I was 12 to work in a factory.
>JustLikeYou got it right. He is an egotist,
>evangelical con-man... and when it comes to serving the needs of
>mankind as a whole he is a complete failure...So in that respect he IS
>a "Retard"...
Of course I didn't mean to say that he was a retard in the litteral
sense of the word... although you might think so the way he never seem
to be able to wipe that stupid smirk off his face. Of course the smirk
could also be from the knowledge that he is making the USA into a
police state despised and hated by the whole world.
blacknblue
A person who has a higher awareness of "What Is"...Or Truth. Sanity
is a good way of putting it. Precieving reality for what it is.
Physical signs: Saints when they die will have their body preserved
for a much longer period of time than the average person. Teeth are
normally pure white even in old age.
It is easy to see that we were NOT all created equally, but should
treat each other as equals.
Thanks,
Aaron
-Hector-
wrote:
>-Hector- <Mel...@Dithryrambic.net> wrote in message news:<67p9i01ar9meonuti...@4ax.com>...
You mean we...ah...ahem...we should...cough...condescend?
Why not revel in your evolutionary superiority?
Or maybe you're one of those that should be...patronized?
Humored?
Damn the Constitution, Boys, full speed ahead! Every
perpetually evolving, incisor-equipped biped for himself!! (Sorry,
herself too!) Don't forget to be kind, however, to your friendly,
neighborhood, evolutionarily challenged pariah! Remember, they may be
you some day! Don't forget where you were at once, Slimeball! (Oh,
what grief will this soliloquy bring to my door? (I can't help it, I'm
experiencing the melodrama of an evolutionary spurt).)
Are you "aware" that I'm "aware" of my elevated plane of
existence? That's silly! How could you? I'm the one setting the
standard. Ain't it grand being a step up on the mercurial scale of
Evolution?
Note: Please refer the NIST Evolution Progression Specification manual
before progressing to the next evolutionary level. NIST has
established the standards for Perfection in Evolution and it is
imperative that all perpetually evolving entities respect the
standards thereby established. Remember, we all have to evolve to the
higher awareness of "Truth" to realize that "Truth is not universal or
absolute!"
Evolving sideways and akimbo,
Hector
blacknblue
> While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
> >> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:19:44 -0700, "Immortalist"
> >> <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >Our bodies may be adapted to be meat eaters OR vegetarians of both. Its the
> worm
> >> >in the apple that is the Apostrophe;
> >>
> >>
> >> Here is a chart done by A.D. Andrews in "Fit Food for men",
> >> (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970) that shows humans to possess
> >> all traits common with the herbivores and none, except the placement
> >> of the eyes, with the carnivores of nature. What do you think that
> >> suggests:
> >>
> >
> >eaters and plant eaters when we were mostly plant eaters long before that.
>
> Gee and what is it that the Bible says? Oh yeah,
> that's right. Man did not eat meat after the Creation,
> but rather, ate meat after the Flood.
I don't recall the Bible mentioning diet in the book of
Genesis...could you give a reference?
> Evolutionists see the Bible being confirmed by science
> and yet deny it. Thus they prove that they are not
> open to science supporting the Biblical account, no
> matter how much scientific information comes their way.
There is much archeological evidence supporting Biblical history, but
to take the story of Creation seriously is silly IMO.
> Pastor Dave Raymond
>
> "Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
> They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
> to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
> At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
> says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
>
> "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
> the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
>
> /
> o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
> \
>
>
> Evolution has never been proven and there
> is no such thing as a clear progression of fossils,
> showing that man came from anything else.
> - Pastor Dave Raymond
Dave 忽帕
When he was passed a shank of lamb every time he sat down to a passover
seder did he just say "No meat for me thanks, I'm a vegetarian" and pass it
on?
If he had done THAT, it would surely have made it into the scriptures
SOMEPLACE!
--
Dave ŠżŠŹ
"Rico" <hog...@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote in message
news:y3AUc.1380$R7....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Vegetarians don't consider fish to be meat. Meat is the flesh of all land
> dwelling animals (excluding insects) and all aquatic mammals (Dolphin and
> whale are meat, shark is fish) and amphibians (frogs, salamandars). And
you
> are correct in the next message you posted in that lamb is part of the
seder
> meal and there is documentation in the bible that Jesus ate the seder meal
> on at least 2 occasions, (the time he got left at the temple was passover,
> and the week of His crucifixion)
> "Dave ŠżŠŹ" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
> news:LMdUc.1314$nh5...@news01.roc.ny...
> > Hmmmm...
> >
> > Vegetarians consider fish to be meat, right? (I'm thinking of the
feeding
> of
> > the 5000.)
> >
> > --
> > Dave ŠżŠŹ
> >
> > http://www.howdydave.com
> >
> >
> > "Rob Duncan" <robd...@gbronline.com> wrote in message
> > news:UMudnQGfItz...@gbronline.com...
> > >
> > > "Jahnu" <ja...@india.com>
Dave 忽帕
No responses???
OK... right up there on the menu you will find LAMB!!!
Lamb is on every Jewish table where/whenever a seder meal is shared.
I might be gracious enough to grant that according to some definitions of
"vegetarianism" fish is not meat...
BUT
No way around it, whatever your definition of vegetarianism is -- LAMB IS
MEAT!
--
Dave 忽帕
"Dave 忽帕" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:mVdUc.1315$Hf5...@news01.roc.ny...
> BTW:
>
> Anybody recall the menu at the seder meal that was celebrated every
> passover?
>
> --
> Dave 忽帕
Crowfoot
<Mel...@Dithryrambic.net> wrote:
As I understand it, it's a person who is compassionate by nature and who
doesn't get fussed up about things because the person knows that we're
here to deal with whatever comes along; so s/he just does. They've been
here so many times and done so much that they're incined to be good at
anything they turn their hand to; and they don't bother folks who don't
bother them, because they've learned that making choices is how souls
evolve -- so you don't try to control other people's choices (or let
them try to control yours), as that just creates karma and karma creates
delay in getting done.
Usually they are easy-going, a bit detached-seeming, and inclined to get
their education informally, having done school of one kind or another
hundreds of times (and besides they already know more than most formal
teachers). They often tend toward depression (well, wouldn't you be, if
you'd seen the likes of GWB operating 50 times before and here it was
happening AGAIN, with people falling for it AGAIN?); and inconspicuous
work that gives time and amplitude for spiritual matters (gardening,
bumming around).
I know I'm not one of them because of (among other things) my god-awful
temper and my impatience. And because the highly evolved don't talk a
lot about spiritual evolution and enlightenment and such (and I enjoy
discussions of such things); they know from experience that you can't
teach anyone what they aren't ready to go learn on their own anyway, and
we're all going to learn what we need to before we're done here, one way
or another.
C
--
Crow
Just Like You
all-inclusive statement of what that meant.
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com
"blacknblue" <crewf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b7362ea0.04081...@posting.google.com...
Jahnu
<Mel...@Dithryrambic.net> wrote:
> My rejoinder concerns grain in general, not simply wheat. The
>general point is that there are a myriad of considerations in the
>export of grain internationally, especially to Third World countries
>that are susceptible to hunger and famine. It is not a thing as
>simple as bandying about broad, general, irrelevant, and skewed
>statistical data.
What makes you think the data from the NY times is broad, general,
irrelvant and skewed?
> As far as your accusation about 'wheat burning,' I wouldn't
>begin to accept that as a factual statement until I had corroborating
>information from more than one legitimate source, relevancy
>notwithstanding.
It's common knowledge. They do the same in the EU. In the EU they are
known to have destroyed thousands upon thousands of tons of butter to
keep the pricesu up.
>Skeptical till the cows come home,
You are not skeptical. You are biased like anything because you don't
want to give up your meat eating. If you were skeptical you would
question your own skepticism.
Pastor Dave
Aug 2004 21:35:48 -0700, crewf...@yahoo.com
(blacknblue) screamed out:
>Pastor Dave <pastor...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<lml6i09vcr3f522dj...@4ax.com>...
>> While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
>> Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:34:05 -0700, "Immortalist"
>> <Reanima...@yahoo.com> screamed out:
>>
>> >
>> >"Jahnu" <ja...@india.com> wrote in message
>> >news:rca5i0pndu2uki2o9...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:19:44 -0700, "Immortalist"
>> >> <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >Our bodies may be adapted to be meat eaters OR vegetarians of both. Its the
>> >> >worm in the apple that is the Apostrophe;
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Here is a chart done by A.D. Andrews in "Fit Food for men",
>> >> (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970) that shows humans to possess
>> >> all traits common with the herbivores and none, except the placement
>> >> of the eyes, with the carnivores of nature. What do you think that
>> >> suggests:
>> >>
>> >
>> >It suggests the possibility that we recently evolved the ability to be both meat
>> >eaters and plant eaters when we were mostly plant eaters long before that.
>>
>> Gee and what is it that the Bible says? Oh yeah,
>> that's right. Man did not eat meat after the Creation,
>> but rather, ate meat after the Flood.
>
>I don't recall the Bible mentioning diet in the book of
>Genesis...could you give a reference?
Certainly. I'd be happy to.
Pre-Flood: Genesis 1:29-30
20) And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb
bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth,
and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree
yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30) And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl
of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the
earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green
herb for meat: and it was so.
Post Flood: Genesis 9:1-4
1) And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto
them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the
earth.
2) And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be
upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of
the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon
all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they
delivered.
3) Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for
you; even as the green herb have I given you all
things.
4) But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood
thereof, shall ye not eat.
>> Evolutionists see the Bible being confirmed by science
>> and yet deny it. Thus they prove that they are not
>> open to science supporting the Biblical account, no
>> matter how much scientific information comes their way.
>
>There is much archeological evidence supporting Biblical history, but
>to take the story of Creation seriously is silly IMO.
Why?
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
http://wayoflife.org/fbns/aremodern.htm
blacknblue
Yes! That smirk is very irritating isn't it? I can't stand Bush and
his disciples as well...I try not to take it TOO seriously when it
comes to politics though...otherwise I end up getting really pissed
off!
blacknblue
LOL! It is hard to accept that life is not all equal and balanced in
the way we homosapians think it ought to be, but that is just how
things are. Some people cannot accept simple truths such as evolution
and reincarnation because they fear change and would rather remain
ignorant. It seems that you are one of those persons:)
-Hector-
wrote:
>-Hector- <Mel...@Dithryrambic.com> wrote in message news:<pmsai0h89dabuagf1...@4ax.com>...
>> On 19 Aug 2004 18:29:38 -0700, crewf...@yahoo.com (blacknblue)
>> wrote:
<<skissored for clarity>>
>LOL! It is hard to accept that life is not all equal and balanced in
>the way we homosapians think it ought to be, but that is just how
>things are. Some people cannot accept simple truths such as evolution
>and reincarnation because they fear change and would rather remain
>ignorant. It seems that you are one of those persons:)
Strange, I had this silly preconceived notion that a highly
advanced, elevated, enlightened individual was one that would find
little necessity for insults or pejorative language.
So then, where do you register on the
Evolutionary/metaphysical scale?
Rethinking KPAX,
Hector
blacknblue
> On 20 Aug 2004 08:25:36 -0700, crewf...@yahoo.com (blacknblue)
> wrote:
>
> >-Hector- <Mel...@Dithryrambic.com> wrote in message news:<pmsai0h89dabuagf1...@4ax.com>...
> >> On 19 Aug 2004 18:29:38 -0700, crewf...@yahoo.com (blacknblue)
> >> wrote:
>
> <<skissored for clarity>>
>
> >LOL! It is hard to accept that life is not all equal and balanced in
> >the way we homosapians think it ought to be, but that is just how
> >things are. Some people cannot accept simple truths such as evolution
> >and reincarnation because they fear change and would rather remain
> >ignorant. It seems that you are one of those persons:)
>
> Strange, I had this silly preconceived notion that a highly
> advanced, elevated, enlightened individual was one that would find
> little necessity for insults or pejorative language.
Well, you are not alone. Many people in these groups tell me the same
thing, but I express what I think and don't give a **** about what
anyone else thinks about my opinions...
BTW I don't remember saying I was a highly advanced/evolved
individual...that is something you made up.
> So then, where do you register on the
> Evolutionary/metaphysical scale?
I'd say just an average person. I try my best to accept the simple
truths of life, and I think thats what most people try...although it
isn't always easy.
Im not a Buddha or Christ and am not here to save the world.
Thankx,
Aaron
Pastor Dave
<ja...@india.com> screamed out:
>On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:14:42 GMT, "Just Like You"
><everyhi...@att.net> wrote:
>
>
>>> >MEAT EATER PLANT EATER HUMAN
>>> >
>>> >has claws no claws no claws
>>>
>>> Panda.
>>
>>There are many animals that have claws that do not eat meat. Koalas are
>>another.
>
>That may be, but the conclusion is still that humans have all
>physiological traits common with herbivore, and none with carnivore.
The conclusion is wrong, period, since there are two
demonstrations of its error. God probably did it that
way, just to frustrate evolutionists. :)
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
WARNING: Exposure to the Son may prevent burning!
Rob Duncan
"Pastor Dave" <pastor...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote
> >The speculation is based upon available evidence woven into a "coherent
theory"
> >which constitutes "undefeated justification." Of course this theory can
change at
> >any time, but until then the burden is on the claiment who questions the
evidence
> >the tale was based upon.
>
> It isn't a theory, since there are no facts behind it.
> The fact that you admit that it can change at any time,
> proves this. Facts don't change.
> Pastor Dave Raymond
Evolutions a fact. Simply because you dont understand it, and because some
of its specifics and particulars are lost to time, doesnt mean its
falsified. It simply means the theory isnt fully fleshed out. Actually, it
never will be, there is just too much lost to father time. But evolution is
a "fact."
Rob
Rob Duncan
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:14:42 GMT, "Just Like You"
> <everyhi...@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> >> >MEAT EATER PLANT EATER HUMAN
> >> >
> >> >has claws no claws no claws
> >>
> >> Panda.
> >
> >There are many animals that have claws that do not eat meat. Koalas are
> >another.
>
> That may be, but the conclusion is still that humans have all
> physiological traits common with herbivore, and none with carnivore.
ALL our traits are in common with omnivores. We would never have developed
the ability to hunt, cook, and eat meat, much less the desire, if we werent
omnivores.
The BS that passes for logic in these parts is really smelly.
Rob
Rob Duncan
> >> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:19:44 -0700, "Immortalist"
> >> <Reanima...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >Our bodies may be adapted to be meat eaters OR vegetarians of both.
Its the
> >worm
> >> >in the apple that is the Apostrophe;
> >>
> >>
> >> Here is a chart done by A.D. Andrews in "Fit Food for men",
> >> (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970) that shows humans to possess
> >> all traits common with the herbivores and none, except the placement
> >> of the eyes, with the carnivores of nature. What do you think that
> >> suggests:
> >>
> >
> >It suggests the possibility that we recently evolved the ability to be
both meat
> >eaters and plant eaters when we were mostly plant eaters long before
that.
>
> Gee and what is it that the Bible says? Oh yeah,
> that's right. Man did not eat meat after the Creation,
> but rather, ate meat after the Flood.
>
> and yet deny it. Thus they prove that they are not
> open to science supporting the Biblical account, no
> matter how much scientific information comes their way.
>
>
>
> Pastor Dave Raymond
Well, considering none of the characters in the Old Testament ever existed
and arent confirmed in history, except for one Pharoah, you can take the
books to be drivvle. There was no flood, as geology confirms.
Rob
Rob Duncan
"Pastor Dave" <pastor...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote
> >Evidence from biology indicates that meat eating and vegetable eating are
traits
> >that can be influenced by genetic mutations. Like limbs can evolve from
fins into
> >legs and legs can evolve back into fins. This is what the available
evidence
> >shows about whales which were once land animals with legs which were once
sea
> >animals with fins.
>
> Now you're back to speculation. There is zero evidence
> to support what you claim and whales never walked on
> land, nor can you prove they did.
> Pastor Dave Raymond
Of course he can. You remain ignorant through your lack of education.
Thats all. Go back to college and take some archeology courses.
Rob
Rob Duncan
"Pastor Dave" <pastor...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote
> >> Evolutionists see the Bible being confirmed by science
> >> and yet deny it. Thus they prove that they are not
> >> open to science supporting the Biblical account, no
> >> matter how much scientific information comes their way.
> >
> >There is much archeological evidence supporting Biblical history, but
> >to take the story of Creation seriously is silly IMO.
>
> Why?
>
>
> --
>
> Pastor Dave Raymond
Theres nothing in the bible thats been confirmed by science. In fact there
is a rather strong trend towards science discrediting the OT.
Rob
Rob Duncan
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 01:24:13 -0600, Crowfoot <suz...@swcp.com> wrote:
>
> >Yep; no way around it, meat is the most dense protein source, so it's
> >highly desireable. The less poking around you have to do for roots and
> >leaves to eat, the more time you have for loafing, mating, tending your
> >young, and developing a culture.
>
> Right, nice culture, the slaughterhouse Macdonalds culture is. A real
> benefit to the world.
Are all Americans born obligated to take care of the rest of the world?
Rob
Rob Duncan
"Just Like You" <everyhi...@att.net> wrote in message
news:xPNUc.47824$ju6....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> You post shows a low level of evolution, especially the last line.
> --
>
> Jim Scannell
> jsca...@wi.rr.com
LOL, your guilt filled obligation meter must be set on high. We are not
obligated to relieve the suffering of every poor soul who is worse off than
ourselves. We are obligated to our family, our children, our neighborhoods,
etc., but not to those who are strangers to us. From where does this
imaginary obligation arrive?
Rob
>
>
>
> "Rob Duncan" <robd...@gbronline.com> wrote in message
> news:ZemdnS0nUqv...@gbronline.com...
> >
> > "Just Like You" <everyhi...@att.net> wrote in message
> > news:JjnUc.97569$vN3....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > "Rob Duncan" <robd...@gbronline.com> wrote in message
> > > news:W-adnVDTbpY...@gbronline.com...
> > > >
> > > > "Jahnu" <ja...@india.com> wrote
> > > >
> > > > >complete load of crap snipped<
> > > >
> > > > Are Americans born obligated to feed the rest of the world?
> > >
> > > No one is obligated to do anything, until they are.
> >
> > No. There is no "until."
> >
> > > IOW, you decide when you
> > > are obligated to do something.
> >
> > Nobody is ever obligated to do anything.
> >
> >
> > > If you felt compassion for the suffering of
> > > others you would feel obligated to help.
> >
> > No, you wouldnt. Why does empathy impart obligation? Nobody feels our
> > pain more than G-d, yet he doesnt feel the slightest obligation to
relieve
> > our suffering, and you expect more of mere mortals? What a fool you
are.
> >
> > > Americans apparently do not.
> >
> > > Jim Scannell
> >
> > Right. Americans, and every other nation on earth, do NOT feel
obligated
> to
> > take care of those outside of their borders. They dont feel obligated,
> > because they are not obligated. It is not anothers responcibility to
take
> > care of strangers, its your responcibility/obligation to take care of
your
> > family and children, that is all.
> >
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
>
>
Rob Duncan
"Jahnu" <ja...@india.com> wrote
> Of course I didn't mean to say that he was a retard in the litteral
> sense of the word... although you might think so the way he never seem
> to be able to wipe that stupid smirk off his face. Of course the smirk
> could also be from the knowledge that he is making the USA into a
> police state despised and hated by the whole world.
Oh, now youre accusing him of making this a police state? Evidence please.
Rob
Rob Duncan
"Just Like You" <everyhi...@att.net> wrote in message
news:m28Vc.60784$ju6....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Well holy Shit Jim. From where did you come to the above? Youre totally
right, on ALL accounts. I dont think Ive seen anyone put it that succinctly
in a long time. However, the conclusion that we are to be vegetarians and
that we are to be enslaved to the service of others doesnt follow logically.
We are to exist in harmony and gratitude.
Rob
Rob Duncan
"-Hector-" <Mel...@Dithryrambic.com> wrote
> Remember, we all have to evolve to the
> higher awareness of "Truth" to realize that "Truth is not universal or
> absolute!"
>
> Evolving sideways and akimbo,
> Hector
Nor is it likely to be correct. Its just a perspective we hold. I truly
doubt a man (or woman) has ever been born who could truly comrehend "what
is."
We all have to create images of what our idea of things are. No two of us
can share a truly compatable picture with each other. We must rely on
allegory, symbolism, language, ideas, metaphores, etc., to come as close as
we can. THAT is why I think so many people have disagreements.
Rob
Rob Duncan
"Crowfoot" <suz...@swcp.com> wrote
and
> we're all going to learn what we need to before we're done here, one way
> or another.
> Crow
I disagree and Ill say why. I dont think we are here to suffer until we
finally "get it." I dont think well have to continually relive miserable
lives until we "learn our lesson." I dont think existence is a test, I
think its a place. In the NOW. It happens to be "where we are at." Ever
changing nows.
Rob
Rob Duncan
"Ayin" <-ammit...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:f65075f6.04081...@posting.google.com...news:<49KdnUPXKYg...@gbronline.com>...
> > "Rico" <hog...@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote
> >
> > > > > >complete load of crap snipped<
> > > > >
so.
> > > > > Clearly, and on more than one occasion. He didnt.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Rob
> >
> > Btw, all animals, fish, fowl, or land mammal... are meat. Dont try and
skip
> > out of this using semantics. If Jesus Christ (G-d) didnt want Man to
eat
> > meat he would have SAID SO!
> >
> >
> > He wouldnt have left it a matter up to debate and speculation. He wasnt
a
> > moron like these idiots claiming that he was a vegetarian... and that he
> > wanted us to be vegetarians. Damn some people are stupid. Never ever,
not
> > once, did he imply we shouldnt eat all the meat we like. What a moronic
> > argument these fools are making.
> >
> >
> > Rob
>
> Luke 13.22,23 And He said unto His disciples. "Therefore I say unto
> you, Take no heed for your life, WHAT YE SHALL EAT; neither for the
> body, what ye shall put on. The life is more than MEAT and the body is
> more than raiment."
This has nothing to do with anything. He was saying to ignore the desires
to worry about a supply of food or for the needs of the body, clothing even.
He was saying that life is more than eating and adorning oneself in fine
clothing. Youve taken the quote out of context. In fact, Jesus Christ was
a complete believer in nudism and preached it several times. And indeed,
were we to live in Christs words we COULD parade around nude at all times
without so much as a single thought of shame or embarassment. We cant, but
its a noble goal.
Rob
Rob Duncan
"Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
news:TmgVc.3258$M62...@news02.roc.ny...
> Howdy Rico!
>
> When he was passed a shank of lamb every time he sat down to a passover
> seder did he just say "No meat for me thanks, I'm a vegetarian" and pass
it
> on?
>
> If he had done THAT, it would surely have made it into the scriptures
> SOMEPLACE!
>
>
> --
If he wanted us to not eat meat he would have SAID SO! He wouldnt have left
it up for debate.
Rob
>
>
> "Rico" <hog...@bigpond.net.au.au> wrote in message
> news:y3AUc.1380$R7....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > Vegetarians don't consider fish to be meat. Meat is the flesh of all
land
> > dwelling animals (excluding insects) and all aquatic mammals (Dolphin
and
> > whale are meat, shark is fish) and amphibians (frogs, salamandars). And
> you
> > are correct in the next message you posted in that lamb is part of the
> seder
> > meal and there is documentation in the bible that Jesus ate the seder
meal
> > on at least 2 occasions, (the time he got left at the temple was
passover,
> > and the week of His crucifixion)
> > "Dave ©¿©¬" <dave@_nospam_howdydave.com> wrote in message
> > news:LMdUc.1314$nh5...@news01.roc.ny...
> > > Hmmmm...
> > >
> > > Vegetarians consider fish to be meat, right? (I'm thinking of the
> feeding
> > of
> > > the 5000.)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dave ©¿©¬
Rico
Omnivore (eater of both meat and plants)
teeth are predominatly molars teeth are predominately
have equal numbers of insisors and molars
insisors (if
mamalian) small canine teeth
large cannine teeth
Hebivore animal carnivore animal
Omnivore animal
Hippopotimous Dingo (Australian dog)
HUMAN
By Gods command, we have the nesseesary eating tools (our teeth) to eat both
meat and plant originated foods from about the age 12 months
"Pastor Dave" <pastor...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ssvci0pt9ssrmgueo...@4ax.com...
Crowfoot
<robd...@gbronline.com> wrote:
Could be, Rob; but I think you overlook one important factor (one that
most of us overlook a good deal of the time, because our cultures teach
us otherwise in order to better control us):
Suffering isn't the only way to learn; we also learn through joy, and
the longer we're around the more we understand how to do this and how to
help provide this kind of lesson to others around us. Suffering is the
way we choose as long as we let fear run our lives. When we start to
mature, to be able to discern and to choose love instead, our lessons
become something very different from suffering.
C
--
Crow
Gnos Theos
> Jesus & vegetarianism
>
Sorry but Jesus ate passover every year in accordance
with the Law.
Exodus 12:4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let
him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the
number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make
your count for the lamb.
Exodus 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with
fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Exodus 12:9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast
with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
Exodus 12:10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning;
and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with
fire.
Exodus 12:11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your
shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it
in haste: it
is the LORD's passover.
Exodus 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and
said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your
families, and kill the passover.
You can beleive in a "nicey-nice" Jesus if you want to, but the
one I fear is coming back to judge and slaughter.
Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people
there
was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample
them
in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I
will stain all my raiment
Besides it is the weak of faith that are vegetarians anyway.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,
or
in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Just Like You
> While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on 19
> Aug 2004 21:35:48 -0700, crewf...@yahoo.com
> (blacknblue) screamed out:
> >Genesis...could you give a reference?
>
> Certainly. I'd be happy to.
>
> Pre-Flood: Genesis 1:29-30
>
> 20) And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb
> bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth,
> and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree
> yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
> 30) And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl
> of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the
> earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green
> herb for meat: and it was so.
In other words, God said that our food, and the food for animals, are the
seed bearing plants, not animals (according to that reference)
--
Jim Scannell
jsca...@wi.rr.com