A real experience with the Gurdjieff Work

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Moon Food

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
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I have written the following as a warning regarding involvement in
the Gurdjieff work. Writing and posting it also provides me with
something of a catharsis. The lessons to be drawn from my experience, I
think, are generalizable beyond the Gurdjieff work. I think the chief
lesson is this: there is a difference between the spiritual and the
psychic, between realizing God within and invoking or manipulating
psychic energies.

Of course, my bizarre experiences were unique to me. Despite that
fact, they are still telling and recounting them might be of value to
those interested in the Fourth Way, as well as all spiritual seekers.

Any comments should be posted to the newsgroup.

In the summer of 1997, spurred by a hankering for the spiritual, I
searched the Internet and came across something called the Fourth Way.
I investigated it, found that a well known and respected Gurdjieff
organization had a branch right in my city, and by September, I was
attending their meetings.

Our particular group was a beginners' group. We met once a week.
Each meeting began with a “sitting.” The sitting is a kind of
meditation. It involves scanning, sensing, the body part by part.
Sensing one’s physical body. It lasts for about 30 minutes. At the
meeting, the sitting is guided by the leader. We were expected to sit
at home each morning on our own.

The sitting is followed by a period, lasting about one hour, during
which everyone sits in a circle. This is led by several group leaders,
experienced in "the Work." Students ask questions, and the leaders take
turns answering the questions.

The group also meets on the weekend on Saturday. On these
Saturdays, we would do actual physical work, having at the beginning of
the day received an "assignment," (e.g., directing attention to the
bottom of one's feet). The work period would be followed by a group
meal, and then by a reading from _Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson_.

I was attending meetings and sitting every day beginning in late
September. I followed the advice given during meetings very precisely.
I was very attentive at the meetings. (I'm a pretty good listener, with
a better than average oral memory.)

For instance, during one meeting, we heard a reading from something
written by John Pentland, which described how to "receive an
impression." Now, Gurdjieff teaches that sensory impressions are a kind
of "food" that is transformed in the human body to eventually create an
astral body, then a "mental" body. I followed these instructions to the
letter, and, lo and behold, something very mysterious happened. When I
looked at something in the manner instructed, it would shift and move
around, and, eventually, waves of yellowish green light would emanate
from the thing and moved toward me. After a few months of intensely
practicing this, unfortunately, my entire field of vision was moving. I
felt like a passenger on the good ship Gurdjieff. This took awhile to
wear off after I stopped "receiving impressions."

More importantly, we were told that we would eventually receive a
flow of energy beginning at the top of the head, moving down the spine,
coming up the front through the genital area and up the chest and the
face. By November, I began to experience this flow. I was told that
this was *very* early for a beginner; the average length of time for
this to start, I was told, was after about 5 years of practice. I was
thrilled and amazed. My former scientistic atheism was definitely out
the window. I mentioned this in private to my group leader, and she
encouraged me to share it with the group. She told me that this was a
significant milestone in the work.

In the next few weeks, my "third eye" apparently opened. I had felt
a kind of pressure and slight pain in my forehead. Now there was a
definite sensation of fluid running from my forehead down my nose and
cheeks. Of course, there was no actual fluid to be found. I suspect
that this was also "expected."

But then something bizarre started that was not "supposed" to
happen.

By the end of November, invisible hands began caressing me, touching
me. They would touch my back, my head, my face. It was uncanny. I
thought that these were spiritual helpers of some kind. They started to
direct my movements, always gently, lifting me to a standing position,
moving my head to one side or back, etc. When I would go through
periods of receiving the energy (and these periods could last for
several hours, as I sat in my room at the edge of my bed, just trying to
keep my back straight and enduring the often uncomfortable force of the
inflow of energy), the hands often came. Then, they started some kind
of construction project on me. They injected some kind of material
into my forehead (apparently, my “third eye” had opened by now). They
sprinkled and then spread some kind of material on my back and legs. I
told my group leader about being “under construction” but she didn’t
have much to say about it. I don't think she initially understood the
magnitude of what I was experiencing.

Things got more complicated in December. In addition to the hands,
I was visited by what I can only describe as “creatures”. They seemed
like a sort of animal. They would glom onto my legs and bite my toes!!
At this point, I figured that all was not well. These creatures came
mostly at night, and especially when I went to bed. I would feel
something like a hot blob, very large, sucking on my leg, and along with
that sensation there would be the biting of my toes. I figured that
these were some kind of creature from another dimension, feeding off of
me. I was strangely accepting of it. It didn’t freak me out that much,
because at the time I thought this just went with spiritual advancement
– an occupational hazard. The creatures would also bite the top of my
head. And other creatures, which seemed somehow different, would sort
of lick my face.

At the end of December, things took a turn for the worse. The
hands, or at least *some* hands, actually began to sexually manipulate
me. They were masturbating me. It was absolutely unmistakable. I also
felt like some kind of suction apparatus at times was affixed to my
penis, and that something like a very thin catheter was being inserted
into my penis. While this was happening, I kind of joked to myself,
“Okay, when do I get the rectal probe?” Because this reminded me very
much of what UFO abductees describe.

After this, the hands became more obtrusive and obnoxious. For
instance, when I got on a plane to fly back home after visiting my
family in another state, they poked me in the ass. Stuff like that.
When I would have my periods of energy flow, they would put their arm
around my neck to block the flow, or put a hand under my chin to divert
the flow.

Some other bizarre things occured. One was the fact that the
“entities” created some kind of electrical “plug” on my back that they
would occasionally tap into, creating a kind of buzzing sensation
there. The other thing was that they installed some kind of living
thing, like a huge worm, inside my torso. This living thing would move
around inside of me. Fortunately, I don’t experience either of these
phenomena anymore.

After Christmas, I was quite sure that my little friends were not
angels from God. When I got back home, I told my group leader about
them in great detail. She said that this was all beyond her experience,
and suggested I speak to the leader that came from New York once a
month. When I talked to him in mid-January, he told me I needed to see
a psychiatrist, and that my experiences had nothing to do with “the
Work.” He told me that *I* was somehow turning the energy I was
receiving into these entities, and that I needed to find out how I was
"feeding" these phenomena.

After my conference with the Big Cheese from New York, I went into a
mild panic. I felt very isolated. I broke off contact with the
Gurdjieff organization and stopped “sitting.” My experiences were too
real to write off. And the fact that I had been fine until I started
this meditation was just too much of a coincidence.

However, I did see a psychiatrist right away. He told me that I was
the victim of hypnosis, but prescribed anti-psychotic drugs (Risperdal)
for me. A few weeks later, I became so upset at my continued
harrassment by these "entities", and at the collapse of my trust in the
Gurdjieff work, that I had to leave work and go on disability. I moved
back home, in another state. The psychiatrist I saw there told me,
after four or five sessions, that he didn't think I was psychotic,
because I didn't evidence any thought disorder or other signs that would
accompany, say, schizophrenia. This man, though a Moslem (which I'm
just guessing, because his name was Mohammed), said to me at our last
appointment, "This might sound stupid, but you should consider seeing a
Catholic priest for an exorcism." My third and current psychiatrist
told me I have schizoaffective disorder. So much for psychiatry.

I don’t believe that these visitations are the product of psychosis,
but the resulting depression and anxiety have required psychiatric
care. I take my medications, but it’s just to “cover my bets.”

Eventually, by the end of February, I stopped feeling the hands.
But I still feel, almost every night when I go to bed, something walking
around on my bed. (I used to be able to feel both my little friends and
the creatures approaching me when I sat on the bed – I felt the mattress
being pressed down, although I never *saw* it go down.) Also, the
energy stopped flowing by March. However, I still feel a constant
movement and pulsing at the top of my head. It simply will not go
away. After some research, I realized that this was my "crown chakra."

I need to mention a few stray facts. First, my group leader twice
demonstrated her powers of telekinesis to me, by turning my head to one
side. It felt like a force moving my head (not like hands). Second,
once during a very heavy period of energy flow through my body, I went
into a bodily ecstasy: I was swept out of my body, through the top of
my head. I kept my eyes closed the whole time, so I don't know what I
would have seen had I opened them. However, I experienced the complete
loss of the sensation of having a body, plus an experience of existing
briefly in a world of lights, some of different colors.

One more thing I should mention. This is the only experience whose
"supernatural" origin I’m unsure about. One afternoon in December,
during the thick of things, I was home and decided to open my blinds to
let the sun in. I usually keep them down. After awhile, I noticed
across the courtyard of my apartment building a man standing there,
perfectly straight, and staring directly at me into my apartment across
the courtyard. He was in his 30’s, bearded, and wore a poncho (who
wears ponchos these days? ? ). All I can say is, you had to be
there. His stare went right through me. At first I tried to ignore
it. Finally, I approached my window. At that point, this gentleman
turned to his right like a robot, and robotically walked away. I never
saw him before and I haven’t seen him since. I’m not sure what to make
of this experience. My current theory is that either he was some kind
of possessed person sent to “greet” me, or he was an apparition.

My tentative conclusions about all this is that, as the
spiritualists teach, there are "entities from the lower astral realm"
who like to interfere with people on occasion. The energy phenomena I
was dealing with attracted them. (By the way, things got worse and
worse at actual meetings. For instance, while "sitting," I would feel
my little friends approach me. Once they put two hands on my head, sort
of like the "laying on of hands" done by Christians. Another time, one
came up, grabbed my toes, and shook them. Mostly mischievous stuff.)
As I described it to my sister, I felt like a deaf, blind, retarded
person stuck in a classroom full of obnoxious 8th graders. In other
words, the entities were more childish than what I would call "evil."
But they were most definitely annoying.

I've decided that my spiritual path should avoid any kind of work
with "energies." Happily, I came across non-dual teachings (e.g.,
Advaita Vedanta, Dzogchen, etc.), and their contemporary exponents, and
these seem to me, at my deepest core, to be true.

Comments are appreciated. I hope I've entertained you, if not
enlightened you. Please reply to the newsgroup.


Moon Food

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
to Moon Food
If you would like to email me, you may do so by removing the "X"s from
the following email address: Xtmul...@Xcentral.Xuh.Xedu

I'm not interested in getting into a pissing contest over the Gurdjieff
work. What happened to me happened. You don't have to accept my
conclusions. You may even conclude that my account isn't factual because
I'm simply psychotic (which would be understandable), in which case argument
is pointless. As I said in my original message, I recognize that my
experience is probably unique, as anyone's experience with any path is.
However, I have learned the hard way that spiritual/supernatural/psychic
"experiences" are the booby prize in life. And it wasn't as if I was
seeking special experiences; I simply wanted to come closer to God. The
silver lining to all this is that I know, from a very deep place, that the
manipulation or cultivation of "energies" or psychic forces is waste of
time. Yes, I'm generalizing way past my own experience. I admit that it's
just an intuition, but it's an intuition that I've paid for dearly.

Georg Naggies

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
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Read your story and find that it sounds as if you had suffered from a sort of
depression. I remember that Dostojewski had a character in crime and punishment
who had imaginary mice eating of his feet (before he shot himself). At the time
I read that I was relieved to find that other people too have strange strange
nightmares. Isn't that common when the energy level sinks too low? In the end
you mentioned that you begin to turn towards zen or advaita. Teachings like
these are going to help you surely. Consider approaching a straightforward yoga
master to help you further. All the best...Georg

Moon Food

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
to Georg Naggies
Georg,

Thanks for your thoughts. However, the depression came well after the "fun"
started.

And if these things were rodents, they were more like capybaras than mice!

Tim

Allen Crider

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
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Moon Food wrote:
>
> I think the chief
> lesson is this: there is a difference between the spiritual and the
> psychic, between realizing God within and invoking or manipulating
> psychic energies.
>
Agreement here!

> More importantly, we were told that we would eventually receive a
> flow of energy beginning at the top of the head, moving down the spine,
> coming up the front through the genital area and up the chest and the
> face. By November, I began to experience this flow.

This is an energy flow guaranteed to light up one's 'pictures'. Note
that it is the opposite direction of your natural flow of kundalini.
From my limited understanding of 4th-way, lighting up one's pictures in
order to observe them from a dissociated, overstanding perspective is an
essence of the practice.


> In the next few weeks, my "third eye" apparently opened. I had felt
> a kind of pressure and slight pain in my forehead. Now there was a
> definite sensation of fluid running from my forehead down my nose and
> cheeks. Of course, there was no actual fluid to be found. I suspect
> that this was also "expected."

Hmm... Lot's of third eye experiences coming up here lately.


> By the end of November, invisible hands began caressing me, touching
> me. They would touch my back, my head, my face. It was uncanny. I
> thought that these were spiritual helpers of some kind. They started to
> direct my movements, always gently, lifting me to a standing position,
> moving my head to one side or back, etc.

[snip]

> After Christmas, I was quite sure that my little friends were not
> angels from God. When I got back home, I told my group leader about
> them in great detail. She said that this was all beyond her experience,
> and suggested I speak to the leader that came from New York once a
> month. When I talked to him in mid-January, he told me I needed to see
> a psychiatrist, and that my experiences had nothing to do with “the
> Work.” He told me that *I* was somehow turning the energy I was
> receiving into these entities, and that I needed to find out how I was
> "feeding" these phenomena.
> After my conference with the Big Cheese from New York, I went into a

> mild panic. I felt very isolated. I broke off contact with the...
[snip]

I called up friend who was once a big cheese in New York (a long time
ago). He said that although the work can be harsh, he had never run
across a case similiar to yours. He also said that 4th way isn't for
everybody and lamented a lack of pre-qualification for those wanting to
study.

> However, I did see a psychiatrist right away. He told me that I was
> the victim of hypnosis, but prescribed anti-psychotic drugs (Risperdal)
> for me.

Last year, someone posted on the bailey newsgroup about problems with
entities. My minister began working with him via email. My minister died
about a month later, but 6 months after he died, this person, 'Mike'
posted this follow-up article about several people being helped by
Zyprexa. Hope this helps.

Please check it out and good luck!
________________________________________________________

Mike said:
There is a new drug out called zyprexa. This drug is being hailed as
an exorcism drug, by many. Very little side-effects, in some cases.
Here
are a few postings, that I found on the web:

Tony wrote:
As you probably know by now.... GOD is real and so are evil spirits. I'm
pretty sure God is not talking to you. The Demons will try to trick you
into thinking the voices you hear are from God. I personally had a demon
attack that lasted two weeks straight. They were turning off lights an
cursing at me through the radio. Yes, all that stuff your mama used to
tell you about the bible is true. I was almost an Atheist before this
stuff happened to me but not any more. If you tell most people this
stuff they will think you are lying or that you are crazy. They just
don't know. It has
to happen to you in order for you to fully appreciate the gravity of the
situation. You also might want to see if the Doctor can put you on
Zyprexa. I take 10 mg a day and have no problems By the way.... Don't
play with those demons as some are very powerful and it could damage
your health...

Doe wrote: Wait -- did I say I put on the radio? For years listening to
even the most harmless program left me paranoid, convinced messages were
being sent me, even when just music or advertisements were played. And
suddenly, there I was, listening to the radio, and enjoying it! Other
so-called positive symptoms were affected as well: soon, I stopped
needing constant "white noise" to block out the voices, because they had
diminished to mere whispers and were barely detectable.

Erica Bay wrote:
btw, i am diagnose bi-polar with dissaciative disorder although the
voices were cruel to me always, i miss them it is like my entertainment
committee is gone since i have been taking zyprexa the voices stay away
and i stay in touch with reality i also miss not being in touch with
reality, it seems so much easier that way> *sigh* and, yes i do remember
what it was like before zyprexa it was hell and i hated every minute of
it so, why do i want it back? does anyone else miss the insanity?> >
erica

Burgess wrote:
Hello, Currently I am taking 20mg. zyprexa, 40mg. prozac, 10mg. valium
as needed and 30mg. of restoril one at night. These are daily doses I
have found the demons are held at bay with these medications. So far for
years this is the only thing that has given me any relief to speak of.
Comments from friendly sources are most welcome. Thank you.

Ray wrote:
Zyprexa does not seem to have any bad side effects (other than the high
cost). My wife was on Risperdal and although it helped at first, after
a few weeks she was worse than before. She has been taking Zyprexa
since the first week it was available back in October. The only side
effect she has had is that it also controlled her dystonia (a movement
disorder). So she has been able to stop taking a bunch of other
medicines. Unlike other medications the benefits of zyprexa seems to
increase over time as you take it. Hope your results are as good!Ray

Jim wrote:
Zyprexa is one of the latest medications with some safe and beneficial
results. I take this medication for the voices/visuals aspect, not for
cutting or self - physical - harm. The med is doing wonders for my
self-esteem and life circumstances.


____________________________
Sanat

Freestone Wilson

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
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Moon Food wrote in message <35EECF53...@nothere.org>...
>hi........no wonder the bible cautions one against this sort of thing!

a prophet can touch the celestial...a psychic can only go as high as the
astral!!
sounds like a Dorr was opened into the spirit world..and lonely spirits saw
that door and came to you...as your earthly soul..light...drew them.
often ..low spirits can see the earth better than they can see heaven....and
can not get to heaven..so they live off of YOU!!!

that was a cult.....
it may not even have been a parto f gardijef!!

you were obsessed..possessed by spirits....
freestone

Freestone Wilson

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
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Moon Food wrote in message <35EF03FF...@nothere.org>...
>hi....this is freestone again...
see if you can find an old 1935 book...."thirty years amongst the dead'...by
carl ??wicham.....

this is where a medium channeled entities that possessed people. the client
came int the room and his hitchikers went to her and spoke through her....

read..Dr fiores..."the unquiet dead"........a doctor deals with the kind of
stuff that you have...


you went to a group that was a pencil point for a group of discarnate
entities who could not really be awake..in their low heavens..unless they
got earthly energy..
REAL vampires!!
and they found you!!
yes..pray to spirit for release....
go see a Real psychic who is not money driven...see what she\he says........
freestone

John Simmons

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
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On Thu, 3 Sep 1998, Moon Food wrote:

> I have written the following as a warning regarding involvement in
> the Gurdjieff work. Writing and posting it also provides me with
> something of a catharsis. The lessons to be drawn from my experience, I
> think, are generalizable beyond the Gurdjieff work. I think the chief
> lesson is this: there is a difference between the spiritual and the
> psychic, between realizing God within and invoking or manipulating
> psychic energies.

Hi "Moon Food",

I guess you like learning the hard way too :-).

When you play with your energies like that, you light up the astral like a
neon sign on a lonely highway...all the hungry critters head right for
you! Some of us call em "brown gunkies".

You are not done, especially if you are now trying to explore Advaita
paths. There are aspects of Dzogpachenpo preliminaries which may recreate
the problem (not to speak of things that often go with Dzogchen, like
Vajra empowerments, etc.).

Feel free to email me. I may be able to suggest some things that you can
do or read about, or refer you to someone in your area.

John
stra...@strannik.com

IC | XC
---+---
NI | KA


Allen Crider

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
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Moon Food wrote:

> As I said in my original message, I recognize that my
> experience is probably unique, as anyone's experience with any path is.
> However, I have learned the hard way that spiritual/supernatural/psychic
> "experiences" are the booby prize in life. And it wasn't as if I was
> seeking special experiences; I simply wanted to come closer to God.

I had forgotten about these folks and happened to run across them this
evening:


Spiritual Emergence Network
930 Mission Street, #7
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
(408) 426-0902
Fax: (408) 429-1614
E-Mail: s...@cruzio.com
http://elfnet1a.elfi.com:80/sen/

SEN was founded by Christina and Stanislav Grof at Esalen Institute in
1980. It has since become an independent non-profit organization.

This primarily volunteer organization operates as a referral system,
directing people in spiritual crisis to therapists, doctors, spiritual
advisors and others who provide "appropriate counseling or emergency
services." 

Sanat

Heart Happy

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
to

************
Well that's very interesting. You know I just moved back to Santa Cruz
too.
Do you know any of those people down here Allen? It seems to me that
a crisis in some form is necessary for the transformation to happen.
I would hope that these guys realize that?? I wouldn't want them
working against the grain, know what I mean??

Judi

Allen Crider

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Sep 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/3/98
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Their website has applications for volunteer listeners, Judi (hint
hint). No experience necessary. Sometimes people need a spiritual
hotline when they've got creepy-crawlers all over them and don't know
who to turn to!

I bet it is nice and cool, breezy in Santa Cruz — not 100 degrees like
it is here at the Mountain of Attention! And that bookstore. I forgot
the name, but what a great bookstore...

Sanat

Bataal

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Sep 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/4/98
to Moon Food
Snipped to save space>

> I've decided that my spiritual path should avoid any kind of work
> with "energies." Happily, I came across non-dual teachings (e.g.,
> Advaita Vedanta, Dzogchen, etc.), and their contemporary exponents, and
> these seem to me, at my deepest core, to be true.
>
> Comments are appreciated. I hope I've entertained you, if not
> enlightened you. Please reply to the newsgroup.


I am suprised that you found that your experience (a mild reactive
psychosis) took your work group by suprise. It is very common. You sound
to be handling it quite well and I think you will be fine as long as you
keep the fact that you are delusional in mind. It often takes a few
years to shake off the psychosis you have brought upon yourself but in
the end you'll find that it was not time wasted.

You are right to lay off the work (although your struggle for balance is
work, is it not?) and to avoid exposing oneself by working with
energies. If an anti psychotic drug helps, them why not!

You have the mental equivalent of an optical illusion on your hands.
Your are sensitive to things that your mind cannot quite make out so
it's overlaying what it considers the most likely thing that would cause
the sensations you are experiencing (little friends). You feel you are
being bitten so the mind invents a scenario to fit the bill. It does
this because it cannot directly perceive something (energy flows) that
it has become sensitive too.

Your conclusions about psychism in all it's forms is spot on and this
insight alone will make your sufferings worth it. There are many who
fall into the psychic trap and these poor souls end lost in delusion.

Best Wishes
Bataal

vcard.vcf

Gnaustica

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Sep 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/4/98
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>
>IC | XC
>---+---
>NI | KA

What impulse inspired this creation? More precisely, the motivation to
fabricate it here?

Earlier...

>> I have written the following as a warning regarding involvement in
>> the Gurdjieff work. Writing and posting it also provides me with
>> something of a catharsis. The lessons to be drawn from my experience, I
>> think, are generalizable beyond the Gurdjieff work. I think the chief
>> lesson is this: there is a difference between the spiritual and the
>> psychic, between realizing God within and invoking or manipulating
>> psychic energies.
>
>

If you can verify any of what you infer, especially with regards to the missing
part of this quoted post, hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of
dollars await you.

Your very existence, in light of these experiences (validated and proven
empirically) will destroy and disempower every religion and faith that exists
today.

Text on a screen can only remain just that.
Whatever that text implies or relays, is secondary to the impulse or reason
(energies, if you like) that fuel its 'creation'.

You should consider yourself fortunate. Like those who watched Christ bring
life back into a rigid, rotting corpse, you have no need for faith, you have
fact of phenomena that stand in contradiction to all reason. Who needs an
abstraction like God when you have 'entities' pulling your tallywhacker?

You have seen camels swim through the eye of a turkey.

In all sincerity, one can only 'wish' for the best.

It is very doubtful your association with what has been called the Fourth Way,
evoked any of the aforementioned 'X-Philia'.

good luck,

b.

Moon Food

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Sep 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/4/98
to Allen Crider
Allen,

The material you quote below is classic schizophrenia. Zyprexa is a
schizophrenia drug. I was on it for several months. It didn't make a damn
bit of difference.

Tim

Moon Food

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Sep 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/4/98
to bat...@bataal.demon.co.uk
I hope you're right. I'd like to believe what you're saying, which is similar
to what the "Big Cheese" from the Gurdjieff organization in NYC told me. Of
course, if hallucinations did not appear absolutely real, they wouldn't be
hallucinations.

However, there is one fact I left out: after a period of "suctioning" of my
genitals, there were two small black and blue marks on the anterior of the
penis. Now, I know from my scientitistic, skeptical past that there is a
phenomenon called "psychogenic purpora," where bruises have been medically
shown to be psychosomatically caused (this has also been posited as a cause
for the stigmata). So, even these marks are not necessarily proof of the
objective reality that I experienced. But they're worth considering.

Bataal wrote:

> I am suprised that you found that your experience (a mild reactive
> psychosis) took your work group by suprise. It is very common. You sound
> to be handling it quite well and I think you will be fine as long as you
> keep the fact that you are delusional in mind. It often takes a few
> years to shake off the psychosis you have brought upon yourself but in
> the end you'll find that it was not time wasted.
>
> You are right to lay off the work (although your struggle for balance is
> work, is it not?) and to avoid exposing oneself by working with
> energies. If an anti psychotic drug helps, them why not!
>
> You have the mental equivalent of an optical illusion on your hands.
> Your are sensitive to things that your mind cannot quite make out so
> it's overlaying what it considers the most likely thing that would cause
> the sensations you are experiencing (little friends). You feel you are
> being bitten so the mind invents a scenario to fit the bill. It does
> this because it cannot directly perceive something (energy flows) that
> it has become sensitive too.
>
> Your conclusions about psychism in all it's forms is spot on and this
> insight alone will make your sufferings worth it. There are many who
> fall into the psychic trap and these poor souls end lost in delusion.
>
> Best Wishes
> Bataal
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bataal <bat...@bataal.demon.co.uk>
> dodo
>
> Bataal
> dodo <bat...@bataal.demon.co.uk>
> HTML Mail
> Netscape Conference Address
> Netscape Conference DLS Server
> http://www.bataal.demon.co.uk/index.htm
> Additional Information:
> Last Name
> First Name Bataal
> Version 2.1


Moon Food

unread,
Sep 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/4/98
to Moon Food
David,

Thanks so much for this reply. It confirms what a spiritualist here in
Houston told me over the phone last month. I *have* been telling my "little

friends" to "leave my presence and the premises." I've noticed that they
respond, but very, very slowly, like molasses. I guess it's just reluctance
on
their part. Until I spoke with that spiritualist, I had made a studied
effort
to avoid communicating with these things at all, which I thought would just
make
me crazy and encourage them. I never spoke to them, or waved them away, or
anything like that. I just totally ignored them, although of course I paid
attention to everything they were doing. But, as you might have guessed, my

approach wasn't really very successful. The firm "NO" approach does appear
to
have helped.

It's funny. I started out feeling absolutely nonchalant about these
entities (which amazed the Big Cheese from the NYC Gurdjieff group as I
recounted my story to him in January). I would just say to myself, "Oh
well,
here they are again. Interesting, but annoying." It was only after the
Gurdjieff folks totally disowned the phenomena that I spun into a panic; I
felt
like everything in my life was falling apart. Now, having had a few months
to
recover, I'm back to nonchalance. It's like dealing with ants at a picnic,
or
mosquitoes. Or, as the Italians say, "I have a stone in my shoe."

I don't know about being psychically advanced, however. As I type this,
my
"crown chakra" is pulsing and throbbing and pressing down and swarming
around,
but it doesn't seem to be doing me much good at all. I've read some
kundalini
literature where they say an open crown chakra means you're fully
enlightened.
That makes me laugh. I'm about as enlightened as a turnip. And still my
crown
chakra is open and active.

My sense is, as you say, that these entities are harmless. They don't
seem
"evil" to me -- they go from being solicitous to playful to obnoxious. The
only
time I really sensed "evil" is when I saw the guy staring into my apartment.

Sure, he could have been just some weirdo. But something tells me he
wasn't.
After my second psychiatrist told me to see a Catholic priest, I called a
Catholic priest who had graduated from a university in Rome and who had been
a
practicing psychotherapist. When I told him about "the man," this priest
told
me, very cryptically, that there were such things as "territorial demons."
He
left it at that. That's the only thing that really sent a chill up my
spine.
Someone else told me that, at a time in his life when he was working with
"energies", and he had gone to visit some friends, a "man" walked right into

their house, sat down, and stared at them, and wouldn't leave. He seemed to

think this might be a similar type of "man." I'm getting the creeps just
typing
this. But who knows. As I said, in both cases, they could have just been
oddballs on the loose.

I also think I should say that I don't necessarily take any of these
phenomena at face value, although I do incline to believe in their
objectivity.
For instance, are there *really* spirits with *hands*? Maybe they just
manifested that way for me. You catch my drift? Although *something* is
there,
I didn't and don't take it at face value. I don't trust it.

Oh well. The world is more interesting than I thought. Next? :)

Tim

(email me at Xtmul...@Xcentral.Xedu, after removing the X's)


David T. St. Albans wrote:

> Dear Moon Food,
>
> I feel that when you began to open your third eye, your innate psychic
> abilities began to quickly connect you with the unseen world of the
spirit.
> However, in various levels of this realm are these child-like entities
which
> Annex (this is a group of angels I do work with),titles "lost souls." They

> try to sap energy from people who are unprotected or unknowledgeable of
> their presence. They use various "gimmicks" loud noises, sexual affronts,
> nightmarish visions, in order to evoke fear, and hatred or other high
> emotional states. They then drain off this surplus energy and become a bit

> stronger. This seems to be the pattern established as you described it.
What
> was interesting is that you simply allowed it to happen without
interference
> and lived and functioned through the experience, which for most people
would
> be aggravating and frightening beyond their ability to cope. I believe
what
> others have said about the Kundalini energy and the need for
self-protection
> is also very true. I go along with whoever told you that you may have
> outstripped your teachers. You went farther, faster than anyone I've ever
> heard of. Still, you do need protection from these outside entities,
> otherwise psychiatrists will simply medicate you into a totally zombie
like
> state. Take control of these entities by turning them gently towards the
> light. Keep telling them they are dead and need to go towards God's light
> now. Keep telling them NO (as was suggested) and tell yourself that your
> energy and your spiritual journey is yours and yours alone. Do not react
> emotionally to these upsetting feelings and visions. They have absolutely
no
> power over you except what you give them. So do not give them any more.
You
> will notice a marked decrease in their visitations and a marked increase
in
> your psychic and spiritual abilities. These abilities you can use or close

> yourself off to. That doesn't matter. You have, however, established quite
a
> link with your own, powerful inner being. It might be useful to keep going

> in that direction, seeking guidance from your inner self, more than anyone

> else.
> Good luck to you in your spiritual journey!
> David St. Albans


Allen Crider

unread,
Sep 4, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/4/98
to
Moon Food wrote:
>
> Allen,
>
> The material you quote below is classic schizophrenia. Zyprexa is a
> schizophrenia drug. I was on it for several months. It didn't make a damn
> bit of difference.
>
> Tim
>

OK. Fair enough. There are energies, entities all around us — especially
astral ones. I know that one can experience them by being in a certain
state or 'vibraton' or by having one's 3rd eye open.

It is certainly important to have abilities to NOT experience entities
if one chooses not to (I don't). Here's a few techniques you may find
helpful.

This will remove astral entities from your environment:

Mix a small quantity of epsom salts and rubbing alcohol in a steel
frying pan. Light this mixture on fire (careful) and walk around your
house with this flame and firmly tell these entities to leave. Work
especially in the corners. The pan will get hot after 10 minutes or so.
Be careful, use an oven mitt.

After this, put your own energy back into your environment. Observe
every single object in your house. Touch everything, pick it up, tell
yourself that it belongs to you. Don't forget the walls, ceiling and the
floor.

When you are done with this. Repeat these words aloud three times:
I return to the universe that which does not belong to me.

Then say this three times.
I return to me that which belongs to me.

___________________________________________

As for cleaning yourself up having run all that energy DOWN your spine,
try this.

In a meditation, visualize a rod that extends down your spine and 150
feet deep in the ground.
See yourself consumed by a violet flame. Have the flame consume you from
the top of your head down. Have the flame travel all the way down the
150 foot long rod and then see all of the flame travel to the end of the
rod and be absorbed in the earth.

Follow this same procedure with a white flame. Don't do the violet flame
exercise without following it with the white flame. When this is over,
simply have the rod dissolve into the earth.

Now see a golden, rosy-pink light begin at the base of your spine. Have
it travel UP your SPINE to the top of your head and DOWN the FRONT —
down to the base of your spine. Circulate this light for about 5
minutes.

Say your name to yourself three times as you end this meditation.

____________________
I do the meditation with the golden, rosy-pink light regularly. It is
clean, gentle, follows our own natural energy direction, and keeps
kundalini running smoothly.

Good luck,
Sanat

Steven Madonick

unread,
Sep 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/5/98
to
Tim,
What you are encountering is your imagination. It is being energized by a
spiritual "field" and sent back to you. These are mere reflections. Make
a test and prove it. Upon awakening have a sitting. At the end of a 30
minute concentration of conscious energy in the body you should notice a
change in the nature of the manifestation. Do not pay attention to the
manifestations, pay attention to sensing the body. See if you alter the
nature of the manifestation. If you do you will find that your state
directly effects what you are experiencing.
Good Luck
Steve

Moon Food <no...@nothere.org> wrote in article
<35F05604...@nothere.org>...

Message has been deleted

Adrian van der Meijden

unread,
Sep 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/7/98
to

Moon Food wrote in message <35EECF53...@nothere.org>...

Re Gurdyev. I tried that one too and got out. I was told to meditate and
had, right first try, an out of the body experience, which, if you don't
know about such things can be horrifying and all that. Just as in counseling
one finds do-gooders and sticking plaster peddlers in the occult one finds
many an incompetent 'lamb' trying to play leader, the more ignorant, the
more ambitious.
It might interest you to read medieval mystics and saints who had much the
same experiences as you, being visited by succubi, etc. It happens and one
can construct half a dozen theories around it, and get no further, as you
did with psychiatrists.
There is no doubt you are psychic and able to induce or perform what this
calls phenomena.
Frame a theory. Quantum Physics holds and allow us to interpret our body
as a system of knots in wave patterns, yoga, acupuncture, chakras and all
that. Body, mind and spirit are simply alternative perspectives on the same
thing, and nobody rightly knows what this is. Mysticism says its mind,
science that it is matter, take your pick of that and half a hundred other
'models' all of which as human imagination ABOUT reality, which is, of
itself unknowable.
Therefore you can induce, and did, because you were unable to "bottle' and
store that energy, through the body certain sensations that, because they
arrived bodily are all too real to your experience. We can now drag in sin,
karma, depth psychology, pathology and other blame games and punitive games
about how that makes you abnormal, bad, crazy and what have we, even in need
of exorcism. In short it was a case of the blind leading the blind, with
you at the receiving end.
You were wise to let it cool down if you found it hard to handle. Under
"normal" circumstances, and nobody knows what's normal anyhow, energy
'OUGHT' to be used, as it does in daily supply. Read up on some of the
major world psychics who can do all sort of odd things with it. Put at its
simplest, if not used in some positive way it goes rotten, so to speak. You
will be the only one able to insight, intuit, daydream or whatever as to
what your very specific skills, abilities, talentes and genius in this
matter is.
For myself I too am psychic, among other things, and when needed will
draw energy from any of the elements to be used to various ends and
purposes, and do so only on demand of other's needs. The rest of the time I
pretend bread eats and tastes like bread and is not composed of wave
packets. Playing around with it is bad news, f.i., when driving a truck, if
you get my drift. The East invented monasteries for those who show promise
to be trained and kept isolate from the public during the intermediate phase
of discovery and mastery. What they don't tell you is the many failed cases
tucked away and 'minded' in such monasteries.
As with anything else anything comes in high and low strengths,. muscle,
mind, the psychic. You veer towards a high potential which, bless you, you
were not to know, nor, from the comments, did your leader have any clues as
to how it actually works. Mostly all those groups, schools and so on tend
to sheeplike follow the leader or great master and are rather naive outside
that "authority" which is rather bad news for those with a higher potential
than the group leader, think of the sorcerer's apprentice story.

Hope this is of some help, otherwise post some more mumbles and I will
comment some more. How come you name yourself moonfood, a very apt
metaphor, bye adrian.


Heart Happy

unread,
Sep 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/7/98
to

********** Who you gonna call - Ghostbusters??? :-)
I'll give them a buzz. I'll tell them you sent me!!

>
> I bet it is nice and cool, breezy in Santa Cruz — not 100 degrees like
> it is here at the Mountain of Attention! And that bookstore. I forgot
> the name, but what a great bookstore...
>

********* It was a scorcher here today too. You've got those nice
redwoods
there though??? You should have been at the
beach with me today?? Hot and gorgeous. Water felt great. Waves were
huge,
I got knocked on my ass a few times and swept up onto the beach and put
about 5lbs of
sand in my bathing suit each time!! :-) My kids thought that was pretty
funny!! So did
a lot of other people standing there watching me skidding on my ass with
my legs
up in the air backwards right past them. :-) People are so nasty you
know?? :-)

And the name of the bookstore in San Rafael is Open Secret.
The name of the bookstore here in Santa Cruz is Gateways.

Judi
--
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm

888888888888


888888888888888888888

8888888888888888

rdmmd

unread,
Sep 7, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/7/98
to
Dear Mr. Moon Food,

I am a physician and have an intense belief in the Gurdjieff system
vis-a-vis reading material. I was in a group for a short time, but was not
serious. Nonetheless my presence at the meetings had a profound effect on
me.

Having said this I would simply add, regarding your dilemma, that one
characteristic of psychotic diseases(schizophrenia et al) and,I believe,
personality disorders (histrionic, borderline et al) is a lack of insight.
That is the patient doesn't see him or herself as having a disease. You
seem to have enough insight to question whether you have a disease or some
other problem and you have sought out help without coercion (?).

There are some things that you haven't mentioned. Do you have a history of
psychiatric illness? Were you involved in other spiritual or religious
pursuits prior to your involvement in The Work? You mentioned exorcism.
Did the M.D. suggest this because you are a Catholic? If so, perhaps you
have intense guilt regarding your search outside of the Church? Do you read
the Bible? Were you when you were in the group? Was it an authentic group
(one with a direct line to Gurdjieff)? What attracted you to The Work? Did
you do movements in the group? What is your personal (sexual) life like?

I do believe that there are other valid (more valid?) models than western
medicine. I hope that you are able to find out what your experience truly
means.


Sincerely,
R.M.

P.S. Why do you not make your email address known?

DNA

unread,
Sep 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/11/98
to
Hope I've asked this in the right group/thread...
What would 'awake' mean forto all or anyof:
G, me, you, dolphin, orangutan, lurcher,
africangreyparrot, ant, jellyfish, lilly,
watermelon, rock?


Yahya M

unread,
Sep 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM9/13/98
to
Moon Food, the story you told reminded me of an odd encounter I had once. I've
never been quite able to explain it.

I was visiting Hyderabad, India. I was told that someone had heard of me and
wanted to meet me. I went to his house and was introduced to a chap who had
emigrated from there to Canada many years before and become a scientist. He
was visiting home for the first time in all those years. He seemed all
nervous; he was guilt-ridden for having stayed away so long. He told me that
he was being hounded by two invisible entities who kept inflicting a lot of
pain on him, and they wouldn't let him do anything. They told him they were
punishing him for neglecting his mother and his religion all those years. He
had been to the psychiatrist who couln't find anything wrong with him. He
didn't mention being involved with any woo-woo stuff. He was of the opinion
that somehow I could save him. I tried to tell him that if he had strong faith
in Allah, no entity of that sort could harm him; I reminded him of the verses
in the Qur'an that were specifically revealed for protection from malevolent
jinn like that. But he wasn't listening to reason. Finally I said, "Look,
it's sunset. They're saying the call to prayer. Let's go to the mosque and
when you've prayed you'll feel better." He said the entities wouldn't allow
him to go to the mosque, but that if he was with me he could go. I said,
"Fine, come on then." We went. As soon as the prayer was done a few minutes
later, I looked for him but he had vanished. I never found out what became of
him.

I still wonder what was really going on with him.

asato mā sad gamaya
tamaso mā jyotir gamaya
m.rtyor mām.rtam gamaya

Lead me from unreality to Reality
Lead me from darkness to Light
Lead me from death to immortality
(B.rhadāranyaka Upanishad, 1.3.28)

Allāhu walī alladhīna āmanū yukhrijuhum min al-zulumāti ilį al-nūr

Allah is the protecting Friend of those who believe; He takes them out of the
darkness into the Light.
(Qur'ān, 2:257)
tamaso mā jyotir gamaya
Lead me from darkness to Light
(B.rhadāranyaka Upanishad, 1.3.28)

Allāhu walī alladhīna āmanū yukhrijuhum min al-zulumāti ilį al-nūr

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