If you use a yaml based platform and you like having it available...

[Steve Carroll]

... it behooves you to consider how devs using yaml are often forced to
view things when asked by 'geeks':

---
Is YAML going away?

The answer to this question is: "No!, but..."
---

but? BUT?!

"So what about integrations that remove YAML support?

Some contributors have decided to remove the YAML support to reduce
their maintenance and support burden. The amount of energy that needs to
be put in (to maintain both capabilities) can be too much and is
complex. We have to understand and accept that. If we do not do that, a
contributor could simply stop contributing."

<https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2020/04/14/the-future-of-yaml/>

A common complaint across the net (and not just with yaml) looks like
the above.

The interim step, on the way to 'stopping contributions' altogether?
Anyone familiar with FOSS projects has seen it...

If you increase the "amount of energy that needs to be put in" to the
point where, going forward, it makes more sense to cater to the lowest
common denominator, your product won't be as flexible as it could be
(for 'geek' usage). It's just *that* simple!

For a platform like HA, anything that makes use of yaml could end up
being crippled or start disappearing. If enough of them and/or 'supplied
integrations' (or Blueprints, scripts, etc.) do, 'user usable' yaml in
HA could eventually be in peril.

Because it's open source and I'm familiar with 'how things work' (WRT
this next statement below), I'll point out a potential reality in that
statement, one that has driven my 'yaml based badness' in this ng ;)

If you're not an advocate for 'teaching people how to fish' or willing
to learn how for yourself, at least a little (to the extent that you're
capable), then you're potentially increasing the 'energy requirement'
(that has shaken more than one FOSS platform by the throat).

The moral of the story: There's only so much a 'geek' can stand.

[Gremlin]

Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
news:uottl2$2bjlr$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Thu, 25 Jan 2024

15:10:26 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> ... it behooves you to consider how devs using yaml are often forced to
> view things when asked by 'geeks':

Sorry man. I've got one ESP Arduino here, and I use an IDE with Python to
program it. Due to time constraints, i'm still at the tinkering stage with
it. I don't know if you've already looked here or not, so I'll share the
url.

https://esphome.io/components/esp32.html

It might be helpful? with the process Tim, yourself, Apd, and I guess snit?
lol are working on. It's cute how much he praises the 'coding knowledge' you
show. According to him, you show the most knowledge of writing code of all
of us. <G>


--
My entire life can be summed up in one sentence..."Well, that didn't fucking
go as planned."

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-25, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
> news:uottl2$2bjlr$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Thu, 25 Jan 2024
> 15:10:26 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> ... it behooves you to consider how devs using yaml are often forced to
>> view things when asked by 'geeks':
>
> Sorry man. I've got one ESP Arduino here, and I use an IDE with Python to
> program it. Due to time constraints, i'm still at the tinkering stage with
> it. I don't know if you've already looked here or not, so I'll share the
> url.
>
> https://esphome.io/components/esp32.html

I've seen a bit on that site (not as much as Apd has).

> It might be helpful? with the process Tim, yourself, Apd, and I guess snit?
> lol are working on. It's cute how much he praises the 'coding knowledge' you
> show. According to him, you show the most knowledge of writing code of all
> of us. <G>

And now he's trying to 'snag' a guy who has a drawer in his desk that
still has the scent of aging punch cards ;)

[Gremlin]

Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>

news:up0i1f$2td82$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Fri, 26 Jan 2024

15:10:39 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 2024-01-25, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
>> news:uottl2$2bjlr$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Thu, 25 Jan 2024
>> 15:10:26 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>
>>> ... it behooves you to consider how devs using yaml are often forced
>>> to view things when asked by 'geeks':
>>
>> Sorry man. I've got one ESP Arduino here, and I use an IDE with Python
>> to program it. Due to time constraints, i'm still at the tinkering
>> stage with it. I don't know if you've already looked here or not, so
>> I'll share the url.
>>
>> https://esphome.io/components/esp32.html
>
> I've seen a bit on that site (not as much as Apd has).

It's been one of my goto sites as I come up with questions. That and various
Arduino geek forums I participate in. I wasn't interested in effectively
wasting one of them for a railroad flasher circuit. Since these are
programmable micro controllers, I can think of a lot more productive uses
for them. One example is my personal rooms automatic climate control; At
some point I am going to convert it over to the Arduino so I can control it
via bluetooth and an app I'm working on. For right now though, it's a
collection of three relay controls that allows the air conditioner to power
up (It has knobs, nothing digital), an electric heater (the one on my tiktok
page where I did a teardown for cleaning and oiling as needed) and a small
humidifier that I disabled it's latchkey circuit in liue of an override
circuit (No, it's not causing a constant signal generation that could burn
something out); So I basically set the temp and humidity I want for the room
to be, and the circuit board I built using sensors (it's reading resistance
in fairness, my 'controller' is by no means smart or intelligent in this
configuration) knows which relay is responsible for heat, air conditioning
and humidity. Due to the fact I can't have the devices metaphorically
speaking, on top of each other; it has a 3 degree differential; give or take
for a margin of error. So, when the heat for example shuts down; the AC
isn't immediately fired up. Likewise if the AC is just shut down, and the
room is a little cooler than set to be, the heaeter isn't going to come
right up; unless the differential has been exceeded. The humidity controls
are even simpler; it's just reading the humidity level in the room and
making sure it stays that way. The AC adds moisture (energy efficient BS
from GE of course) but the electric heater obviously, makes dry heat,
so..that's where the tiny humidifier comes in. This particular room is the
perfect size for it. I just have to remember to keep it's water level good.
The damn thing is so small though, I have to check that frequently. ROFL.

>> It might be helpful? with the process Tim, yourself, Apd, and I guess
>> snit? lol are working on. It's cute how much he praises the 'coding
>> knowledge' you show. According to him, you show the most knowledge of
>> writing code of all of us. <G>
>
> And now he's trying to 'snag' a guy who has a drawer in his desk that
> still has the scent of aging punch cards ;)

Well, aside from the other guy (if we're writing about the same one;
technically I know of three individuals who have hands on experience with
them that post here) clarifying his comment concerning LOGOS before the
conversation resembled a snit and peescent interaction, I would have to
politely disagree and state that he already snagged him; succesfully. I have
to give credit where it's due, and in some cases, snit seems to be a pro at
the fishing. And I don't mean phishing.

[T i m]

On 27/01/2024 07:19, Gremlin wrote:

<snip>

> One example is my personal rooms automatic climate control; At
> some point I am going to convert it over to the Arduino so I can control it
> via bluetooth and an app I'm working on.

This sounds like what Home Assistant can do out of the box. ;-)

> For right now though, it's a
> collection of three relay controls that allows the air conditioner to power
> up (It has knobs, nothing digital), an electric heater (the one on my tiktok
> page where I did a teardown for cleaning and oiling as needed) and a small
> humidifier that I disabled it's latchkey circuit in liue of an override
> circuit (No, it's not causing a constant signal generation that could burn
> something out);

A perfect HA interface example. My electric curtains (an old 'Swish
Autoglide' setup) are now controlled my HA, one ESP32 and a 4 way relay
board. The additional hardware excluding the HA host probably cost 10
gbp. ;-)

> So I basically set the temp and humidity I want for the room
> to be, and the circuit board I built using sensors (it's reading resistance
> in fairness, my 'controller' is by no means smart or intelligent in this
> configuration) knows which relay is responsible for heat, air conditioning
> and humidity.

One addition component on yer ESP32. ;-)

https://howtomechatronics.com/tutorials/arduino/dht11-dht22-sensors-temperature-and-humidity-tutorial-using-arduino/

> Due to the fact I can't have the devices metaphorically
> speaking, on top of each other; it has a 3 degree differential; give or take
> for a margin of error.

All settable using the full HVAC GUI.

https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2023/09/06/release-20239/#new-climate-humidifier-and-water-heater-entity-dialogs

> So, when the heat for example shuts down; the AC
> isn't immediately fired up. Likewise if the AC is just shut down, and the
> room is a little cooler than set to be, the heaeter isn't going to come
> right up; unless the differential has been exceeded.

All at the touch of a mouse or finger. ;-)

> The humidity controls
> are even simpler; it's just reading the humidity level in the room and
> making sure it stays that way.

Yeah, our dehumidifier works that way (we use it in a clothes drying
room). We set the unit on 'Max' and let HA manage it, timings, levels
and cycle times etc (to protect the compressor). It also notifies me
when the tank is fill. ;-)

> The AC adds moisture (energy efficient BS
> from GE of course) but the electric heater obviously, makes dry heat,

Does it make 'dry heat' or just heat? eg, It doesn't impact the humidity
either way, apart from raising the dew point?

> so..that's where the tiny humidifier comes in. This particular room is the
> perfect size for it.

Humidity isn't generally an issue in the UK. ;-)

> I just have to remember to keep it's water level good.

Ah, 'remembering', those were (the pre HA) days. ;-)

> The damn thing is so small though, I have to check that frequently. ROFL.

A mate has a couple of fairly large fish tanks and that (apparently)
require quite a percentage of water being changed every so often. So he
has a RO filter and several 25l plastic water barrels fed from a pump
controlled by HA (and an ESP32) and a water level sensor (also managed
by HA via the same ESP). He puts the barrel in place, pops the feed hose
in the top, connects up the level sensor and then presses 'Start' on his
HA dashboard. HA manages the pump duty-cycle and 'Full' level, both
turning off the pump and notifying it's complete.

After struggling with a model railway automation unit semi hard-coded
onto an Ardunio Uno and a bunch of points actuators driven be bridge
motor drivers and using pules IR proximity sensors, I'm hoping to do the
same for BIL using HA and the same hardware and a bunch of automations.

Cheers, T i m

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-27, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
> news:up0i1f$2td82$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Fri, 26 Jan 2024
> 15:10:39 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-25, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
>>> news:uottl2$2bjlr$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Thu, 25 Jan 2024
>>> 15:10:26 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... it behooves you to consider how devs using yaml are often forced
>>>> to view things when asked by 'geeks':
>>>
>>> Sorry man. I've got one ESP Arduino here, and I use an IDE with Python
>>> to program it. Due to time constraints, i'm still at the tinkering
>>> stage with it. I don't know if you've already looked here or not, so
>>> I'll share the url.
>>>
>>> https://esphome.io/components/esp32.html
>>
>> I've seen a bit on that site (not as much as Apd has).
>
> It's been one of my goto sites as I come up with questions. That and various
> Arduino geek forums I participate in. I wasn't interested in effectively
> wasting one of them for a railroad flasher circuit. Since these are
> programmable micro controllers, I can think of a lot more productive uses
> for them. One example is my personal rooms automatic climate control; At
> some point I am going to convert it over to the Arduino so I can control it
> via bluetooth and an app I'm working on.

I haven't messed with any HA (or similar) type system but I've been
looking at some hardware lately. I have an old ASUS laptop (i7 quad)
with a 512GB SSD but I'm not sure I'd want to tie that up for this.

> For right now though, it's a collection of three relay controls that
> allows the air conditioner to power up (It has knobs, nothing
> digital), an electric heater (the one on my tiktok page where I did a
> teardown for cleaning and oiling as needed) and a small humidifier
> that I disabled it's latchkey circuit in liue of an override circuit
> (No, it's not causing a constant signal generation that could burn
> something out); So I basically set the temp and humidity I want for
> the room to be, and the circuit board I built using sensors (it's
> reading resistance in fairness, my 'controller' is by no means smart
> or intelligent in this configuration) knows which relay is responsible
> for heat, air conditioning and humidity. Due to the fact I can't have
> the devices metaphorically speaking, on top of each other; it has a 3
> degree differential; give or take for a margin of error. So, when the
> heat for example shuts down; the AC isn't immediately fired up.
> Likewise if the AC is just shut down, and the room is a little cooler
> than set to be, the heaeter isn't going to come right up; unless the
> differential has been exceeded. The humidity controls are even
> simpler; it's just reading the humidity level in the room and making
> sure it stays that way. The AC adds moisture (energy efficient BS from
> GE of course) but the electric heater obviously, makes dry heat,
> so..that's where the tiny humidifier comes in. This particular room is
> the perfect size for it. I just have to remember to keep it's water
> level good. The damn thing is so small though, I have to check that
> frequently. ROFL.

Even though this is considered a desert, we get periods where the
humidity goes nuts and we have to dehumidify, the tank for that is
smaller than I like.

>>> It might be helpful? with the process Tim, yourself, Apd, and I guess
>>> snit? lol are working on. It's cute how much he praises the 'coding
>>> knowledge' you show. According to him, you show the most knowledge of
>>> writing code of all of us. <G>
>>
>> And now he's trying to 'snag' a guy who has a drawer in his desk that
>> still has the scent of aging punch cards ;)
>
> Well, aside from the other guy (if we're writing about the same one;

I'm talking about Apd.

> technically I know of three individuals who have hands on experience with
> them that post here) clarifying his comment concerning LOGOS before the
> conversation resembled a snit and peescent interaction, I would have to
> politely disagree and state that he already snagged him; succesfully. I have
> to give credit where it's due, and in some cases, snit seems to be a pro at
> the fishing. And I don't mean phishing.

No matter the ng, no matter the poster, it's his 'victim' act if it's
anything that 'makes a sale'. For damn sure it can't be the insane and
ridiculous crap he writes as that's the sh*t which has to be overlooked
to 'feel' for a 'victim' like Glasser.

[Apd]

"Steve Carroll" wrote:
> On 2024-01-27, Gremlin wrote:
>> Steve Carroll wrote:

>>> On 2024-01-25, Gremlin wrote:
>>>> It might be helpful? with the process Tim, yourself, Apd, and I guess
>>>> snit? lol are working on. It's cute how much he praises the 'coding
>>>> knowledge' you show. According to him, you show the most knowledge of
>>>> writing code of all of us. <G>
>>>
>>> And now he's trying to 'snag' a guy who has a drawer in his desk that
>>> still has the scent of aging punch cards ;)

Scent? I still have a box full!

>> Well, aside from the other guy (if we're writing about the same one;
>
> I'm talking about Apd.

There ain't no one snagging me.

Regarding the blog:
<https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2020/04/14/the-future-of-yaml/>

"Some contributors have decided to remove the YAML support to reduce
their maintenance and support burden. The amount of energy that needs
to be put in (to maintain both capabilities) can be too much and is
complex".

I didn't know that, as well as the GUI config, they have to build in
the ability to use yaml. I thought it came automatically.

Anyway, although yaml is not going away for some things, they say new
integrations must be configurable via the GUI.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-27, Apd <n...@all.invalid> wrote:
> "Steve Carroll" wrote:
>> On 2024-01-27, Gremlin wrote:
>>> Steve Carroll wrote:
>>>> On 2024-01-25, Gremlin wrote:
>>>>> It might be helpful? with the process Tim, yourself, Apd, and I guess
>>>>> snit? lol are working on. It's cute how much he praises the 'coding
>>>>> knowledge' you show. According to him, you show the most knowledge of
>>>>> writing code of all of us. <G>
>>>>
>>>> And now he's trying to 'snag' a guy who has a drawer in his desk that
>>>> still has the scent of aging punch cards ;)
>
> Scent? I still have a box full!

I've no doubt ;)

>>> Well, aside from the other guy (if we're writing about the same one;
>>
>> I'm talking about Apd.
>
> There ain't no one snagging me.

That's why I clarified it was you.

> Regarding the blog:
><https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2020/04/14/the-future-of-yaml/>
>
> "Some contributors have decided to remove the YAML support to reduce
> their maintenance and support burden. The amount of energy that needs
> to be put in (to maintain both capabilities) can be too much and is
> complex".
>
> I didn't know that, as well as the GUI config, they have to build in
> the ability to use yaml. I thought it came automatically.
>
> Anyway, although yaml is not going away for some things, they say new
> integrations must be configurable via the GUI.

Not a bad thing... but what I'm referring to boils down to respecting
people's time (Tim is not the only person to have asked a question and
was handed the 'this is not a help desk' sermon on the HA forum). SO had
wars over this stuff because people would ask questions that had been
answered many times over, they were too lazy/inept/<fill in the blank>
to go look for them.

All I'm saying is, if you want something to continue on open source
stuff, doing your part may sometimes mean meeting people part of the way
there, at least, to the extent you're capable of (which may take effort
you'd rather expend on something else). Wondering where hidden values
are, that really aren't hidden at all if one just 'looks' at what
they've been using, is the perfect 'case in point'. After all, you're
dealing with your house, devices and electricity so blindly copy/pasting
could potentially be problematic and no 'geek' is going to pay you sh*t
if you somehow manage to cause a problem that requires $$ to fix (IOW,
there's a personal aspect to this, too). I was all set to try HA on my
laptop until someone in a video mentioned the potential of frying a USB
bus (a helpful 'geek' may not know all about your 'homemade device'). So
I started looking at different (dedicated) hardware that I could afford
to lose. There are some cool options out there for very little $$.

[Snit]

On Jan 27, 2024 at 7:53:04 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<up35cg$3dsgu$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

>> technically I know of three individuals who have hands on experience with
>> them that post here) clarifying his comment concerning LOGOS before the
>> conversation resembled a snit and peescent interaction, I would have to
>> politely disagree and state that he already snagged him; succesfully. I have
>> to give credit where it's due, and in some cases, snit seems to be a pro at
>> the fishing. And I don't mean phishing.
>
> No matter the ng, no matter the poster, it's his 'victim' act if it's
> anything that 'makes a sale'. For damn sure it can't be the insane and
> ridiculous crap he writes as that's the sh*t which has to be overlooked
> to 'feel' for a 'victim' like Glasser.

You two actively speak of trolling me and doxxing me and targeting me with
attacks... and yet you both see yourself as the victims.

You cannot accept who and what you are.

Hell, notice you above... talking about what I write but not being able to
quote ANYTHING to back your claims. You feel the need to lie to deal with your
weak ego.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-27, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 27, 2024 at 7:53:04 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
><up35cg$3dsgu$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:
>
>>> technically I know of three individuals who have hands on experience with
>>> them that post here) clarifying his comment concerning LOGOS before the
>>> conversation resembled a snit and peescent interaction, I would have to
>>> politely disagree and state that he already snagged him; succesfully. I have
>>> to give credit where it's due, and in some cases, snit seems to be a pro at
>>> the fishing. And I don't mean phishing.
>>
>> No matter the ng, no matter the poster, it's his 'victim' act if it's
>> anything that 'makes a sale'. For damn sure it can't be the insane and
>> ridiculous crap he writes as that's the sh*t which has to be overlooked
>> to 'feel' for a 'victim' like Glasser.
>
> You two actively

Stop lying, whiner.

[T i m]

On 27/01/2024 15:58, Apd wrote:

<snip>

> "Some contributors have decided to remove the YAML support to reduce
> their maintenance and support burden. The amount of energy that needs
> to be put in (to maintain both capabilities) can be too much and is
> complex".

Quite. ;-)

>
> I didn't know that, as well as the GUI config, they have to build in
> the ability to use yaml. I thought it came automatically.

None of this appears 'automatically' does it? I mean, some coder has to
roll their sleeves up. ;-)

>
> Anyway, although yaml is not going away for some things, they say new
> integrations must be configurable via the GUI.

It's the way of things eh.

Like, I knew smoking (in public places) wasn't going to be considered
'acceptable' for ever (it couldn't) and now most don't even consider the
fact that they can't smoke in a pub, restaurant or cinema and some
young'uns wouldn't believe you if you told them you once could.

Fewer people are getting married in the UK (I never saw the point),
fewer people 'believe' in any sort of religion and many of those who say
they do follow some faith, aren't as dedicated to it at they might have
once been.

More people are taking up 'basic' funerals.

Pubs are closing, as are many butchers and dairys and slaughterhouses.

Many of the Linux DE's are more like Windows than the Linux geeks said
they cared about.

And it will be the same with coding. As AI becomes more accessible it's
likely to be built into the likes of HA (I think they are looking into
it). There is certainly no way a rouge indent or 'obvious' typo
(something not defined anywhere but then referenced) won't be flagged
and a suggestion offered.

Cheers, T i m

[Apd]

"T i m" wrote:
> On 27/01/2024 15:58, Apd wrote:
>> I didn't know that, as well as the GUI config, they have to build in
>> the ability to use yaml. I thought it came automatically.
>
> None of this appears 'automatically' does it? I mean, some coder has to
> roll their sleeves up. ;-)

The developers who build "integrations" (what we might call plugins)
for HA (in C++, Python, JS, etc.) will have some way of connecting to
HA via whatever software interface or API it provides. HA will then
offer those capabilities to the user via the GUI. I thought yaml was
an alternative method of access provided by HA for the user, which
needed no special consideration by the developer.

>> Anyway, although yaml is not going away for some things, they say new
>> integrations must be configurable via the GUI.
>
> It's the way of things eh.

It's a good thing. Users shouldn't be expected to write code.

> And it will be the same with coding. As AI becomes more accessible it's
> likely to be built into the likes of HA (I think they are looking into
> it). There is certainly no way a rouge indent or 'obvious' typo (something
> not defined anywhere but then referenced) won't be flagged and a
> suggestion offered.

Many, including me, think sensitivity to indents in code is wrong.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-27, Apd <n...@all.invalid> wrote:

> "T i m" wrote:
>> On 27/01/2024 15:58, Apd wrote:
>>> I didn't know that, as well as the GUI config, they have to build in
>>> the ability to use yaml. I thought it came automatically.
>>
>> None of this appears 'automatically' does it? I mean, some coder has to
>> roll their sleeves up. ;-)
>
> The developers who build "integrations" (what we might call plugins)
> for HA (in C++, Python, JS, etc.) will have some way of connecting to
> HA via whatever software interface or API it provides. HA will then
> offer those capabilities to the user via the GUI.

And, as the article mentioned, potentially with less yaml support.

> I thought yaml was an alternative method of access provided by HA for
> the user, which needed no special consideration by the developer.

From the page I linked to:

---

So what about integrations that remove YAML support?

Some contributors have decided to remove the YAML support to reduce
their maintenance and support burden. The amount of energy that needs to
be put in (to maintain both capabilities) can be too much and is

complex. We have to understand and accept that. If we do not do that, a
contributor could simply stop contributing.

Unfortunately, such a move creates backward-incompatible changes and
often leads to a few pretty de-motivating comments, towards the
contributor and the project in general. This is harmful to everybody, as
the contributors get demotivated or, even worse, don’t want to implement
new features or create a breaking change.

This halts our project goals, slows down innovation and induces the risk
of losing contributors and maintainers. In the end, leads to a greater
loss for everybody.
---

>>> Anyway, although yaml is not going away for some things, they say new
>>> integrations must be configurable via the GUI.
>>
>> It's the way of things eh.
>
> It's a good thing. Users shouldn't be expected to write code.
>
>> And it will be the same with coding. As AI becomes more accessible it's
>> likely to be built into the likes of HA (I think they are looking into
>> it). There is certainly no way a rouge indent or 'obvious' typo (something
>> not defined anywhere but then referenced) won't be flagged and a
>> suggestion offered.
>
> Many, including me, think sensitivity to indents in code is wrong.

I hate it... now more than ever ;)

But you can write yaml in a way that you can look at that might make
more 'visual sense' to you, I can't recall where I saw it, but you can.

[Snit]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 27, 2024 at 7:53:04 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
> <up35cg$3dsgu$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:
>
>>> technically I know of three individuals who have hands on experience with
>>> them that post here) clarifying his comment concerning LOGOS before the
>>> conversation resembled a snit and peescent interaction, I would have to
>>> politely disagree and state that he already snagged him; succesfully. I have
>>> to give credit where it's due, and in some cases, snit seems to be a pro at
>>> the fishing. And I don't mean phishing.
>>
>> No matter the ng, no matter the poster, it's his 'victim' act if it's
>> anything that 'makes a sale'. For damn sure it can't be the insane and
>> ridiculous crap he writes as that's the sh*t which has to be overlooked
>> to 'feel' for a 'victim' like Glasser.
>
> You two actively speak of trolling me and doxxing me and targeting me with
> attacks... and yet you both see yourself as the victims.
>
> You cannot accept who and what you are.
>
> Hell, notice you above... talking about what I write but not being able to
> quote ANYTHING to back your claims. You feel the need to lie to deal with your
> weak ego.
>

Carroll snipped, ran, and lied. As he does.

He can’t explain why it’s so trivial to show this behavior in him… And
impossible for him to find examples of my doing it. His best efforts are to
dig back and take things out of context. I just wait for him to post.

[Snit]

Apd <n...@all.invalid> wrote:
> "Steve Carroll" wrote:
>> On 2024-01-27, Gremlin wrote:
>>> Steve Carroll wrote:
>>>> On 2024-01-25, Gremlin wrote:
>>>>> It might be helpful? with the process Tim, yourself, Apd, and I guess
>>>>> snit? lol are working on. It's cute how much he praises the 'coding
>>>>> knowledge' you show. According to him, you show the most knowledge of
>>>>> writing code of all of us. <G>
>>>>
>>>> And now he's trying to 'snag' a guy who has a drawer in his desk that
>>>> still has the scent of aging punch cards ;)
>
> Scent? I still have a box full!

I don’t have any, but I have a brother with tons of them.

[Apd]

"Steve Carroll" wrote:

> On 2024-01-27, Apd wrote:
>> I thought yaml was an alternative method of access provided by HA for
>> the user, which needed no special consideration by the developer.
>
> From the page I linked to:

I know. It was the way I thought it worked before I read the page.

>> Many, including me, think sensitivity to indents in code is wrong.
>
> I hate it... now more than ever ;)
>
> But you can write yaml in a way that you can look at that might make
> more 'visual sense' to you, I can't recall where I saw it, but you can.

It forces you to format it for readability, which is great except when
spaces get lost with copying or accidentally omitted, completely
altering the meaning. With delimiters like braces and brackets, the
intent is clear even if it needs pretty-printing.

[Gremlin]

Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>

news:up35cg$3dsgu$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Sat, 27 Jan 2024

I suspected that you might be. He along with FTR and myself are the only
ones I know of who post here with experience using them. Those two
considerably more than myself.

>> technically I know of three individuals who have hands on experience
>> with them that post here) clarifying his comment concerning LOGOS
>> before the conversation resembled a snit and peescent interaction, I
>> would have to politely disagree and state that he already snagged him;
>> succesfully. I have to give credit where it's due, and in some cases,
>> snit seems to be a pro at the fishing. And I don't mean phishing.
>
> No matter the ng, no matter the poster, it's his 'victim' act if it's
> anything that 'makes a sale'. For damn sure it can't be the insane and
> ridiculous crap he writes as that's the sh*t which has to be overlooked
> to 'feel' for a 'victim' like Glasser.

Snits one seriously fucked up in the head individual, no doubt about it.

[Gremlin]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up2oq8$3bton$1...@dont-email.me Sat, 27 Jan

2024 11:18:30 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 27/01/2024 07:19, Gremlin wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> One example is my personal rooms automatic climate control; At
>> some point I am going to convert it over to the Arduino so I can
>> control it via bluetooth and an app I'm working on.
>
> This sounds like what Home Assistant can do out of the box. ;-)

That's good, but, I don't learn much from that.

> A perfect HA interface example. My electric curtains (an old 'Swish
> Autoglide' setup) are now controlled my HA, one ESP32 and a 4 way relay
> board. The additional hardware excluding the HA host probably cost 10
> gbp. ;-)

I hate the idea of wasting one of these micro controllers for something I
can whip up using old school electronic components, though. Pet peeve of not
wanting to waste gear? I dunno.

>> Due to the fact I can't have the devices metaphorically
>> speaking, on top of each other; it has a 3 degree differential; give or
>> take for a margin of error.
>
> All settable using the full HVAC GUI.

I have a very simple screen on the board that clearly shows the mode it's
in, temp it's at, temp its shooting for, etc. No need for a GUI for that.

>> So, when the heat for example shuts down; the AC
>> isn't immediately fired up. Likewise if the AC is just shut down, and
>> the room is a little cooler than set to be, the heaeter isn't going to
>> come right up; unless the differential has been exceeded.
>
> All at the touch of a mouse or finger. ;-)

Once i'm satisfied with the security aspect. I want to make sure I can't
easily break into it down the road and enter settings which would damage
things in the room. I'm not trying to design a stupid IoT that makes the
news for causing a house fire or something, no.

>> The AC adds moisture (energy efficient BS
>> from GE of course) but the electric heater obviously, makes dry heat,
>
> Does it make 'dry heat' or just heat? eg, It doesn't impact the humidity
> either way, apart from raising the dew point?

See here:
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8tVCT3j/

And here:
<https://www.33rdsquare.com/do-electric-heaters-dry-out-a-room-an-in-depth-gu
ide-to-managing-indoor-humidity/>

> Humidity isn't generally an issue in the UK. ;-)

Heh. :)

[T i m]

On 27/01/2024 23:51, Gremlin wrote:
> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up2oq8$3bton$1...@dont-email.me Sat, 27 Jan
> 2024 11:18:30 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 27/01/2024 07:19, Gremlin wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> One example is my personal rooms automatic climate control; At
>>> some point I am going to convert it over to the Arduino so I can
>>> control it via bluetooth and an app I'm working on.
>>
>> This sounds like what Home Assistant can do out of the box. ;-)
>
> That's good, but, I don't learn much from that.

Well, other than how to interface the ESP32 and relay board and how to
interface that to the Curtain Controller, then no. ;-)

>
>> A perfect HA interface example. My electric curtains (an old 'Swish
>> Autoglide' setup) are now controlled my HA, one ESP32 and a 4 way relay
>> board. The additional hardware excluding the HA host probably cost 10
>> gbp. ;-)
>
> I hate the idea of wasting one of these micro controllers for something I
> can whip up using old school electronic components, though.

Except you can't do that can you ... you can't centrally automate,
control and otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can
knock up? That would be like saying you can build a push cart so why
build a kitcar. ;-)

> Pet peeve of not
> wanting to waste gear? I dunno.

I'm not 'wasting gear' though am I, I'm using it?

>
>>> Due to the fact I can't have the devices metaphorically
>>> speaking, on top of each other; it has a 3 degree differential; give or
>>> take for a margin of error.
>>
>> All settable using the full HVAC GUI.
>
> I have a very simple screen on the board that clearly shows the mode it's
> in, temp it's at, temp its shooting for, etc.

Sure, like most basic bits of non smart kit. My split AC / air source
heat pump also has a display that allows me to see such things and I'm
gagging to make the whole thing smart.

> No need for a GUI for that.

No need for a remote for the TV when you can simply get up, walk across
the room, press the buttons, walk back and sit down again. ;-)

>
>>> So, when the heat for example shuts down; the AC
>>> isn't immediately fired up. Likewise if the AC is just shut down, and
>>> the room is a little cooler than set to be, the heaeter isn't going to
>>> come right up; unless the differential has been exceeded.
>>
>> All at the touch of a mouse or finger. ;-)
>
> Once i'm satisfied with the security aspect. I want to make sure I can't
> easily break into it down the road and enter settings which would damage
> things in the room.

That's mostly down to your router though isn't it, if it was 'online'?

> I'm not trying to design a stupid IoT that makes the
> news for causing a house fire or something, no.

Ah, so you don't leave anything in your house plugged in and switched on
when not in use? TV, DW, WM, TD, phone chargers, router, HVAC?

>
>>> The AC adds moisture (energy efficient BS
>>> from GE of course) but the electric heater obviously, makes dry heat,
>>
>> Does it make 'dry heat' or just heat? eg, It doesn't impact the humidity
>> either way, apart from raising the dew point?
>
>
> See here:
> https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8tVCT3j/

Nice. How ling did the external lubrication last on what looks like
Oilite bearings?

>
> And here:
> <https://www.33rdsquare.com/do-electric-heaters-dry-out-a-room-an-in-depth-gu
> ide-to-managing-indoor-humidity/>

Yeah, like I said, running an electric heater doesn't affect the actual
humidity (it can't), just the dew point and the relative humidity (and
irrelevant to most non living things). ;-)

The de-humidifier we use for drying cloths is in the main bedroom and so
we also want to make sure the 'actual' humidity doesn't build up too
much (mainly in the winter when we don't have the windows open so long).
So HA checks the humidity at 10:30 and if above a threshold, turns the
dehumidifier on. If we are having a lay in or are sick etc and don't
want the noise (even though it's pretty quiet), I just long-hold button
4 on the pad on the headboard and it turns off the automation (and dh)
for that day. If I want to turn the dh back on, I just double tap button 4.

Now, 'of course' that means I don't get as much exercise, getting out of
bed, turning the dh off, getting back into bed and possibly turning the
dh back on later, but if I've had a nice lay-in I might feel more
inclined to go out for a walk and get some fresh air and sunlight. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-28, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

>> I hate the idea of wasting one of these micro controllers for something I
>> can whip up using old school electronic components, though.
>
> Except you can't do that can you ... you can't centrally automate,
> control and otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can
> knock up?

If he has the proper 'bits' on hand, why not?

[Steve Carroll]

I suppose his doing so as his method of 'survival'; if he's OK with what
that survival 'looks like' by employing it, that's on him as he also has
to live with the blowback <shrug>.

[Snit]

On Jan 28, 2024 at 8:12:58 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<up5qtq$3v8gr$3...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

Notice you post JUST to push drama.

Time and time again. Meanwhile you make accusations but cannot show examples.

[Gremlin]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up4ver$3qe2g$1...@dont-email.me Sun, 28 Jan

2024 07:24:09 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 27/01/2024 23:51, Gremlin wrote:
>> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up2oq8$3bton$1...@dont-email.me Sat, 27
>> Jan 2024 11:18:30 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/01/2024 07:19, Gremlin wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> One example is my personal rooms automatic climate control; At
>>>> some point I am going to convert it over to the Arduino so I can
>>>> control it via bluetooth and an app I'm working on.
>>>
>>> This sounds like what Home Assistant can do out of the box. ;-)
>>
>> That's good, but, I don't learn much from that.
>
> Well, other than how to interface the ESP32 and relay board and how to
> interface that to the Curtain Controller, then no. ;-)

I wasn't clear by tinkering stage, that's on me. I already know how to
program and control the ESP32, I know what the pins on the board all do and
how to control them. Including the ones not meant for resistors. Relays are
childsplay; simple mechanical devices which can be noisy. I prefer using
"solid state" ones when possible. A curtain controller could be nothing more
than a simple motor driven gear box with limit switches. I don't know how
complex or simple your version of one is. I do have previous experience with
home automation. The problem for me is that after I put some funds and
considerable time into using a specific one, it was discontinued AND
disabled by it's manufacturer. That left a nasty taste in my mouth so I
won't soon be going back to off the shelf offerings again. I'll roll my own.

>>> A perfect HA interface example. My electric curtains (an old 'Swish
>>> Autoglide' setup) are now controlled my HA, one ESP32 and a 4 way
>>> relay board. The additional hardware excluding the HA host probably
>>> cost 10 gbp. ;-)
>>
>> I hate the idea of wasting one of these micro controllers for something
>> I can whip up using old school electronic components, though.
>
> Except you can't do that can you ... you can't centrally automate,
> control and otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can
> knock up?

Uhm. Yes, actually I can. It's just not 'programmable' And this gizmo is in
charge of a single room. Not an entire house, but I could scale it easily
enough if I wanted to. I have before. I'm not using a design I created
recently; I've actually found some old prints to one I built when I was a
teenager and that's what I rebuilt here. Worked fine then, works fine now.

I'm very curious to know why you don't think I or someone else couldn't do
this? That without the HA, it can't be done? Is that what you really think
or have I misunderstood you?

> That would be like saying you can build a push cart so why
> build a kitcar. ;-)

That's not a very good analogy. I can build either of those, but my welding
skills aren't at the stage where it's pretty and solid. It's solid, not
pretty.

>> Pet peeve of not
>> wanting to waste gear? I dunno.
>
> I'm not 'wasting gear' though am I, I'm using it?

For you, no, it's not a waste. But for me, to use this controller for a
single room when I can do it without the controller, would be a waste of a
good controller to me. I can do quite a bit with these little guys and I
don't like to waste one for a single bedroom climate controller. <G>
Your entire house is automated, I suppose? This one is not; and I don't want
it to be, not yet anyway. All I wanted was climate control for one specific
room. Which is what I've got.

> Sure, like most basic bits of non smart kit.

Yep. It's not a 'smart' kit. And 'smart' is more a buzzword to me than
actuality. An if/then statement doesn't make something 'smart'; doesn't show
'intelligence' imho.

> My split AC / air source
> heat pump also has a display that allows me to see such things and I'm
> gagging to make the whole thing smart.

Smart in what sense though? Able to have a conversation with it? Or, remote
control it from another location? If the latter, you could modify it's
control pad to let your remote devices take the place of your human fingers
and press the buttons for you. I'm sure it has a thermostat of some kind -
which you could tie into and feed that information to your controller as
well.

>> No need for a GUI for that.
>
> No need for a remote for the TV when you can simply get up, walk across
> the room, press the buttons, walk back and sit down again. ;-)

What's with the odd duck analogies?

>>
>>>> So, when the heat for example shuts down; the AC
>>>> isn't immediately fired up. Likewise if the AC is just shut down, and
>>>> the room is a little cooler than set to be, the heaeter isn't going
>>>> to come right up; unless the differential has been exceeded.
>>>
>>> All at the touch of a mouse or finger. ;-)
>>
>> Once i'm satisfied with the security aspect. I want to make sure I
>> can't easily break into it down the road and enter settings which would
>> damage things in the room.
>
> That's mostly down to your router though isn't it, if it was 'online'?

My router does bluetooth? News to me.

>> I'm not trying to design a stupid IoT that makes the
>> news for causing a house fire or something, no.
>
> Ah, so you don't leave anything in your house plugged in and switched on
> when not in use? TV, DW, WM, TD, phone chargers, router, HVAC?

Hmm. I don't think you understood the reference. This climate control device
has full control over the heat ac and humidity. It decides when they turn on
and when they turn off. Their own built in thermostat controls have all been
bypassed. So, this controller could tell the heater to come on and stay the
fuck on until something catches fire in the room, or the heater exceeds it's
own thermal safeties and starts a fire in it's own casing. This isn't
intended for end users or the general public yet; it's lacking the nanny
safety; assume you're an idiot customer and protect you from your stupidity
features.

And it's bluetooth, eventually I might let it chat over the network, but for
right now, it's a single room so that's not really needed.

>>
>>>> The AC adds moisture (energy efficient BS
>>>> from GE of course) but the electric heater obviously, makes dry heat,
>>>
>>> Does it make 'dry heat' or just heat? eg, It doesn't impact the
>>> humidity either way, apart from raising the dew point?
>>
>>
>> See here:
>> https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8tVCT3j/
>
> Nice. How ling did the external lubrication last on what looks like
> Oilite bearings?

Did you skim the video like snit skims text? I ask because an old timer
electric motor rebuilder taught me how to service the bearings. That
particular 'grease' is much more like an oil spray than the grease version
I've got in a tube. [g] The reason you saw me move the shaft back and forth
was to get some of the stuff on the shaft inside the bearing as well as
slightly relube the bearing as again, I was taught to do. That video was
done feb 27th, 2023; I continued to use it at night until the spring, I
haven't oiled it since, and it's almost feb 2024 - And I starting using it
again this past fall when it got cold at night, no issues. Nice and fast,
moves air like it did when I bought it new.

As I explained in the video, the fan isn't squealing, isn't changing rpms,
etc since it was serviced. It's a happy camper. Has been for nearly a full
year now. I will oil it again either when it complains and asks, or when I
decide I probably should for pre emptive care. These aren't expensive
heaters, no, but it's not that easy to find one with 3 heat settings either;
and I like that for the wattage consumption.

And since you bring it up, you know you're supposed to lubricate those
bearings every 1,000 hours of use or annually, right?

> Yeah, like I said, running an electric heater doesn't affect the actual
> humidity (it can't), just the dew point and the relative humidity (and
> irrelevant to most non living things). ;-)

I run the humidifier when using that heater because it makes my skin dry and
itchy if I don't.

[Gremlin]

Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>

news:up5qmk$3v8gr$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Sun, 28 Jan 2024

Just taking a guess here. I'd say the way he struggles with the
configuration files, he assumes others would have the same struggles with
just doing it the old school way? I dunno.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-29, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
> news:up5qmk$3v8gr$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Sun, 28 Jan 2024
> 15:09:08 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-28, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> I hate the idea of wasting one of these micro controllers for something
> I
>>>> can whip up using old school electronic components, though.
>>>
>>> Except you can't do that can you ... you can't centrally automate,
>>> control and otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can
>>> knock up?
>>
>> If he has the proper 'bits' on hand, why not?
>
> Just taking a guess here. I'd say the way he struggles with the
> configuration files, he assumes others would have the same struggles with
> just doing it the old school way? I dunno.

About this, I don't, either. Regarding the config files, he has issues
'seeing' stuff so, apparently, that's the cause of his struggle and I
totally get it. OTOH, there *are* some things he could learn to do if he
put in the effort. Out of one side of his mouth he's basically said HA
is a means to an end for him (he did so when I was trying to get him to
do something he'd *already* done). Out of the other side of his mouth he
said it's hobby. Anyone can see it's *clearly* a hobby for him so one
would tend to believe he'd be interested in learning what he's able to.

[Gremlin]

Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>

news:up8hc5$h1kd$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Mon, 29 Jan 2024

Hmm. After re-reading my own post, I can see how I could easily come off as
a bit of an asshole. Which wasn't the intention. One of my best friends that
I met in elementary school has dyslexia, and, it didn't stop him from
serving for 8years in the army. Like you, I do think if he wanted to do it,
he could. He's got what I would call a mental block combined with a total
lack of desire. Just my opinion, though. I was burned by another vendor for
a product which did the same thing, so, I have no interest in the one he's
using. For him, it works. With the ESP or without, I can roll my own; and by
doing so, it's never going to just one day stop working because the
manufacturer decided they didn't want to support it anymore AND they didn't
want you to continue to use it as it was with the understanding you're on
your own.

[Steve Carroll]

I don't even know if he's been diagnosed, but it's something he's been
stating as the reason he couldn't do what he'd *already* done, which was
a red flag to me.

> He's got what I would call a mental block combined with a total
> lack of desire. Just my opinion, though. I was burned by another vendor for
> a product which did the same thing, so, I have no interest in the one he's
> using. For him, it works. With the ESP or without, I can roll my own; and by
> doing so, it's never going to just one day stop working because the
> manufacturer decided they didn't want to support it anymore AND they didn't
> want you to continue to use it as it was with the understanding you're on
> your own.

As you alluded to, not everything needs to be 'smart'.

[T i m]

On 29/01/2024 15:17, Gremlin wrote:
> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
> news:up5qmk$3v8gr$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Sun, 28 Jan 2024
> 15:09:08 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-28, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> I hate the idea of wasting one of these micro controllers for something
> I
>>>> can whip up using old school electronic components, though.
>>>
>>> Except you can't do that can you ... you can't centrally automate,
>>> control and otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can
>>> knock up?
>>
>> If he has the proper 'bits' on hand, why not?
>
> Just taking a guess here. I'd say the way he struggles with the
> configuration files, he assumes others would have the same struggles with
> just doing it the old school way? I dunno.
>

So it seems. ;-)

It's nothing to do with you or I and feasibility but flexibility.

The 'old school way' *is* or often can be made to be functional, but
some of us like more than just functionality.

I take a perfectly good de-humidifier and make it 'smart' *without*
having to open it up. I can turn it on and off by time and humidity and
have it notify me when the collection tank is full. I can monitor and
log it's running and therefore monitor and determine it's running costs.

And I can do all that without having to design and build any
electronics, write any configuration files or write an app for my phone.

But then it sounds like we have different goals. You want the journey, I
want to be at the destination. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 29/01/2024 16:13, Gremlin wrote:
<snip>

> Hmm. After re-reading my own post, I can see how I could easily come off as
> a bit of an asshole. Which wasn't the intention.

Not to me you didn't? Why would you if chatting between friends?

> One of my best friends that
> I met in elementary school has dyslexia, and, it didn't stop him from
> serving for 8years in the army.

Probably didn't need to read or write much, just pull the trigger. ;-)

If I was in the Army and someone shouted the coordinates for some
munition or missile and I had to remember and type it in *instantly*, no
one would be safe.

> Like you, I do think if he wanted to do it,
> he could.

Then maybe you do not understand how dyslexia and / or dyscalculia can
actually affect people?

> He's got what I would call a mental block

100%

> combined with a total
> lack of desire.

Not at all, or I'm guessing I wouldn't have been trying all sorts of
coding over a period exceeding 50 years?

> Just my opinion, though.

Something you are fully entitled to. ;-)

> I was burned by another vendor for
> a product which did the same thing, so, I have no interest in the one he's
> using.

Except, with this 'product' there is no vendor as such. It's free to
download and use by anyone with no real restrictions. If you pay you can
have 8Extra* feature but they have only been introduced fairly recently.

> For him, it works.

It does, pretty well all the time and easily and flexibly.

Like, The front hall light comes on between Sun rise and set. I
previously has 'sensor' light that would do similar but were restricted
re sensitivity and lamp options.

I have a PIR by the front door and what I mean to do is configure HA to
turn the light on if it's not already on and after the front door has
been opened and closed and movement is *then* detected.

> With the ESP or without,

Mostly without. ;-)

> I can roll my own;

I would *really* like to know how you get on covering all HA can do
yourself! And that's not a slur on you or your skills, just you would
have to play catch up with what is now an multi man dev team with
thousands of individual devs submitting their own fixes and features.

> and by
> doing so, it's never going to just one day stop working because the
> manufacturer decided they didn't want to support it anymore

Whilst not impossible, that is part of the point of HA. It's creating
LOCAL support for the devices so not reliant on ANY external support or
access for it's functionality. In fact 'local' and 'security' are part
of their core.

It's like you are saying that if Mark Shuttleworh closed Canonical, all
instances of Ubuntu installed out there would stop working? <shrug>

> AND they didn't
> want you to continue to use it as it was with the understanding you're on
> your own.
>

But that's 'the thing' with HA. You buy (or design yourself) something
to work with HA and there is nothing the manufacturer of said commercial
(even) product can do to stop that working, unless you update the
firmware etc?

If you design an app to interface your home made electronics (to gain a
fraction of the functionality / flexibility of HA), couldn't Apple /
Samsung also stop that working?

But each to their own etc. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[FromTheRafters]

After serious thinking Steve Carroll wrote :

He asked for a fish, and you kept trying to sell him "The Compleat
Angler" on CD.

[Steve Carroll]

LOL! It was a DVD! ;)

Initially, yes, when I thought if/else statements (a far cry from "The
Compleat Angler") weren't going pose a problem. At that point I then
focused on what he'd already done and realized it was a good way to find
the hidden info they (he and Apd) had been looking for. That he kept on
whining about replacing characters is what I found odd, that he tried to
'pull a Glasser' didn't help (that's what set me off). The bottom line
is, he's doing what he said he couldn't do, that's the 'big takeaway'
here. Apd just asked him for some info, he's gonna have to 'do it'
again, and he will because he always could. Beside all of that, if one's
"hobby" is asking for a fish, it's not much of a hobby, is it?

[T i m]

On 29/01/2024 15:17, Gremlin wrote:

<snip>

>>> That's good, but, I don't learn much from that.
>>
>> Well, other than how to interface the ESP32 and relay board and how to
>> interface that to the Curtain Controller, then no. ;-)
>
> I wasn't clear by tinkering stage, that's on me.

Ok.

> I already know how to
> program and control the ESP32, I know what the pins on the board all do and
> how to control them. Including the ones not meant for resistors.

Cool, another nice person able to help with my programming issues than! ;-)

> Relays are
> childsplay; simple mechanical devices which can be noisy.

Well, sure, conceptually they are, but what about drive current,
opto-isolation or not, c/o time, contact layout (MBB, BBM), output
current / voltage rating, inductive load switching tolerance ...

On my charge multiplexer solution (HA + ESP32 + 8 way relay board), not
only have I wired the relays in such a way to prevent the risk of more
than one battery being connected to the charger at any time, I've also
installed a 'soft interlock within the ESP code to also manage that in
software.

I can monitor (and log) the charge current and voltage of each battery
and therefore switch to any outlet that has a battery connected and
switch from it once I see the charger enter the float stage or make it
bad and send a notification if it's not in float mode within 'x' time.

> I prefer using
> "solid state" ones when possible.

I've tried using one on my 3D printer and it got VERY hot so I went back
to a 40A relay.

> A curtain controller could be nothing more
> than a simple motor driven gear box with limit switches.

Nope. Want another go? (and yes, still ONLY talking physical curtain
drive and motion limit control). ;-)

> I don't know how
> complex or simple your version of one is.

I thought you just told us. ;-)

> I do have previous experience with
> home automation.

What was it ooi?

> The problem for me is that after I put some funds and
> considerable time into using a specific one, it was discontinued AND
> disabled by it's manufacturer.

Yup, and why I avoided doing just that.

> That left a nasty taste in my mouth so I
> won't soon be going back to off the shelf offerings again.

Of course.

> I'll roll my own.

Good luck with that!

Or you could use one that is Open Source and do with that what you like. ;-)

>
>>>> A perfect HA interface example. My electric curtains (an old 'Swish
>>>> Autoglide' setup) are now controlled my HA, one ESP32 and a 4 way
>>>> relay board. The additional hardware excluding the HA host probably
>>>> cost 10 gbp. ;-)
>>>
>>> I hate the idea of wasting one of these micro controllers for something
>>> I can whip up using old school electronic components, though.
>>
>> Except you can't do that can you ... you can't centrally automate,
>> control and otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can
>> knock up?
>
> Uhm. Yes, actually I can.

<gets out chair and popcorn>

> It's just not 'programmable'

Quite, or therefore as flexible etc.

> And this gizmo is in
> charge of a single room.

Yup, already fairly limited.

I can turn on 3 outdoor light from my PC desktop, my phone or a battery
powered push button and two of those lights are on and powered by my
neighbour. ;-)

> Not an entire house, but I could scale it easily
> enough if I wanted to.

<gets more popcorn>

> I have before.

Using a commercial product.

> I'm not using a design I created
> recently; I've actually found some old prints to one I built when I was a
> teenager and that's what I rebuilt here. Worked fine then, works fine now.

Sure, no reason it shouldn't.

>
> I'm very curious to know why you don't think I or someone else couldn't do
> this?

The 'this' I'm talking of requires a massive team of people mate. If you
think you can cover all that on your own, may I be your agent and
introduce you to Palus who is to founder of Nabu Casa / HA! ;-)

https://remote.com/jobs/nabu-casa-home-assistant-c1meh63e

> That without the HA, it can't be done?

See above.

> Is that what you really think
> or have I misunderstood you?

No, I really know you couldn't duplicate HA on your own. Could you
automates some bits, yes, of course?

>
>> That would be like saying you can build a push cart so why
>> build a kitcar. ;-)
>
> That's not a very good analogy.

It is, just that you may have missed my point.

> I can build either of those,

I'm sure you can.

> but my welding
> skills aren't at the stage where it's pretty and solid. It's solid, not
> pretty.

Again, this isn't about you but 'one'. I'm pretty sure you don't think
that just because someone can put up a shelf that they can (would be
guaranteed to be able to) build a house?

>
>>> Pet peeve of not
>>> wanting to waste gear? I dunno.
>>
>> I'm not 'wasting gear' though am I, I'm using it?
>
> For you, no, it's not a waste. But for me, to use this controller for a
> single room when I can do it without the controller, would be a waste of a
> good controller to me.

Of course?

> I can do quite a bit with these little guys and I
> don't like to waste one for a single bedroom climate controller. <G>

I'm not sure what is being wasted here? the chances are, one ESP32 would
be cheaper than a decent capacitor? If it's not using up components you
already have, how are you going to make the display when you need a new
TV. ;-)

(Oh, and if you need components, I have a large box full I can send you
FOC!). ;-)

> Your entire house is automated, I suppose?

Where appropriate, yes.

> This one is not; and I don't want
> it to be, not yet anyway.

So you do want it fully automated then. ;-)

> All I wanted was climate control for one specific
> room. Which is what I've got.

I'm sure you have, as have I with my split unit? However, it's not
'smart' so it is very limiting what I can do with it and I can't log
very much with it.

>
>> Sure, like most basic bits of non smart kit.
>
> Yep. It's not a 'smart' kit. And 'smart' is more a buzzword to me than
> actuality.

Looks around the room at loads of smart stuff busily working for me ...

> An if/then statement doesn't make something 'smart'; doesn't show
> 'intelligence' imho.

I'm pretty sure that's not the suggestion re 'Smart' kit so that
interpretation is on you. ;-)

>
>
>> My split AC / air source
>> heat pump also has a display that allows me to see such things and I'm
>> gagging to make the whole thing smart.
>
> Smart in what sense though?

On / off. Live indication of it's running mode from anywhere in the
house (or world if I wanted to expand it that far). How often it goes
into defrost mode when offering a/c or de-humidification, how different
settings might impact the running cost, activation / de-activation based
on occupancy etc etc.

> Able to have a conversation with it?

Sort of. 'YOu can manage what you can measure'.

> Or, remote
> control it from another location? If the latter, you could modify it's
> control pad to let your remote devices take the place of your human fingers
> and press the buttons for you.

I could indeed (FingerBots). But it would be far more subtle to not have
to do it that way. Eg, you could use an ESP32 and a relay board to use a
'volt free' way on interfacing things where you may not have access the
schematic.

> I'm sure it has a thermostat of some kind -

It has, it's just not very accurate though.

> which you could tie into and feed that information to your controller as
> well.

See above. I already have a temp and humidity sensor in that room.

>
>>> No need for a GUI for that.
>>
>> No need for a remote for the TV when you can simply get up, walk across
>> the room, press the buttons, walk back and sit down again. ;-)
>
> What's with the odd duck analogies?

You don't want to have features with HA that you probably enjoy with
other things? Logical inconsistency.

I was like that with my Digital Camera versus using the camera on my
phone. Then I noted I had my phone camera with me most of the time, it
gave as good a picture and was already 'connected' to be able to share
or save the pictures.

I'm a bit like that with automatics versus a manual gearbox. That said,
I have had much more variation in use (are rarely 'good') with autos
than I ever have with manuals.

The last was test driving a dual clutch job in a VW where the delay in
it getting itself sorted felt dangerous to us! ;-(

>>>
>>>>> So, when the heat for example shuts down; the AC
>>>>> isn't immediately fired up. Likewise if the AC is just shut down, and
>>>>> the room is a little cooler than set to be, the heaeter isn't going
>>>>> to come right up; unless the differential has been exceeded.
>>>>
>>>> All at the touch of a mouse or finger. ;-)
>>>
>>> Once i'm satisfied with the security aspect. I want to make sure I
>>> can't easily break into it down the road and enter settings which would
>>> damage things in the room.
>>
>> That's mostly down to your router though isn't it, if it was 'online'?
>
> My router does bluetooth? News to me.

Ever worse if your devices communicated using BT! But no, I was talking
WiFi.

>
>>> I'm not trying to design a stupid IoT that makes the
>>> news for causing a house fire or something, no.
>>
>> Ah, so you don't leave anything in your house plugged in and switched on
>> when not in use? TV, DW, WM, TD, phone chargers, router, HVAC?
>
> Hmm. I don't think you understood the reference.

OK ...

> This climate control device
> has full control over the heat ac and humidity. It decides when they turn on
> and when they turn off. Their own built in thermostat controls have all been
> bypassed.

Ah. I've not done that, it's not safe. ;-)

> So, this controller could tell the heater to come on and stay the
> fuck on until something catches fire in the room,

Spontaneous combustion. How powerful is this heater!

> or the heater exceeds it's
> own thermal safeties and starts a fire in it's own casing.

What, you have bypassed the thermal trip AND fuse as well? No wonder you
are worried!

> This isn't
> intended for end users or the general public yet;

No, it doesn't sound like it!

> it's lacking the nanny
> safety;

I think you might just say 'safety' if your house was on fire.

> assume you're an idiot customer and protect you from your stupidity
> features.

Yup, built-in safety features. Thermal trips, thermal fuses, stall
detection, air-flow / pressure sensors (filters), run time limits, water
level etc etc.

>
> And it's bluetooth, eventually I might let it chat over the network, but for
> right now, it's a single room so that's not really needed.

I set up a BT scanner as part of a proximity detection system and you
wouldn't believe the data I collected! Temperature sensors, mobile
phone, tyre pressure sensors, remote controls (inc car entry) the list
was nearly endless!

>>>
>>>>> The AC adds moisture (energy efficient BS
>>>>> from GE of course) but the electric heater obviously, makes dry heat,
>>>>
>>>> Does it make 'dry heat' or just heat? eg, It doesn't impact the
>>>> humidity either way, apart from raising the dew point?
>>>
>>>
>>> See here:
>>> https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8tVCT3j/
>>
>> Nice. How ling did the external lubrication last on what looks like
>> Oilite bearings?
>
> Did you skim the video like snit skims text?

No, I watched it end to ed?

> I ask because an old timer
> electric motor rebuilder taught me how to service the bearings.

What, sintered bronze or other?

> That
> particular 'grease' is much more like an oil spray than the grease version
> I've got in a tube.

Until the solvent / propellant evaporates out and it might be the same
grease?

[g] The reason you saw me move the shaft back and forth
> was to get some of the stuff on the shaft inside the bearing as well as
> slightly relube the bearing as again, I was taught to do.

Hmm, I missed the bit where you heated the oil and left the bearing
standing in it then before letting it cool?

> That video was
> done feb 27th, 2023; I continued to use it at night until the spring, I
> haven't oiled it since, and it's almost feb 2024 - And I starting using it
> again this past fall when it got cold at night, no issues. Nice and fast,
> moves air like it did when I bought it new.

No, I wasn't questioning if it works (if obviously does), just wondering
if it's going to last as long as it did from new?

>
> As I explained in the video, the fan isn't squealing, isn't changing rpms,

> etc since it was serviced.#

Sure, you have prevented the issue by reintriducing some lubrication.
That's the result I would have expected.

> It's a happy camper. Has been for nearly a full
> year now.

Yup, that's good them, It's ok to nurse these things along, even when
the long-term solution fails.

> I will oil it again either when it complains and asks, or when I
> decide I probably should for pre emptive care.

Cool. I bet it's the former. ;-)

> These aren't expensive
> heaters, no, but it's not that easy to find one with 3 heat settings either;

Agreed. Most 'basic' fan hears are cold and two hot.

> and I like that for the wattage consumption.

Sure.

>
> And since you bring it up, you know you're supposed to lubricate those
> bearings every 1,000 hours of use or annually, right?

That would surprise me very much. Given many things have at least a one
year warranty (even more thanks to the EU). I really can't see many end
users stripping their electric fans down to re-lubricate what should he
a lifetime lubricated bearing, or paying someone to do it?

>
>
>> Yeah, like I said, running an electric heater doesn't affect the actual
>> humidity (it can't), just the dew point and the relative humidity (and
>> irrelevant to most non living things). ;-)
>
> I run the humidifier when using that heater because it makes my skin dry and
> itchy if I don't.
>

Yes, because you are 'a living thing' and are impacted by such things.

In the same way my mate has given up running his de-humidifier in the
same room as his two lard fish tanks! ;-)

Interesting chat, thanks.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 29/01/2024 18:29, FromTheRafters wrote:

<snip>

>
> He asked for a fish, and you kept trying to sell him "The Compleat
> Angler" on CD.

Perfect, thanks. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Steve Carroll]

There's a wide gap between teaching you how to be the 'fish whisperer'
and throwing a couple of flakes into a tank ;)

[Snit]

On Jan 29, 2024 at 9:13:52 AM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB10872...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

Between this and saying you will do as I have asked and focus on my machine in
the thread you started for that, I commend you. Thanks.

> Which wasn't the intention. One of my best friends that
> I met in elementary school has dyslexia, and, it didn't stop him from
> serving for 8years in the army. Like you, I do think if he wanted to do it,
> he could. He's got what I would call a mental block combined with a total
> lack of desire. Just my opinion, though. I was burned by another vendor for
> a product which did the same thing, so, I have no interest in the one he's
> using. For him, it works. With the ESP or without, I can roll my own; and by
> doing so, it's never going to just one day stop working because the
> manufacturer decided they didn't want to support it anymore AND they didn't
> want you to continue to use it as it was with the understanding you're on
> your own.


--

[Gremlin]

Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>

news:up8k85$hg1h$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Mon, 29 Jan 2024

16:37:25 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 2024-01-29, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>> Hmm. After re-reading my own post, I can see how I could easily come
>> off as a bit of an asshole. Which wasn't the intention. One of my best
>> friends that I met in elementary school has dyslexia, and, it didn't
>> stop him from serving for 8years in the army. Like you, I do think if
>> he wanted to do it, he could.
>
> I don't even know if he's been diagnosed, but it's something he's been
> stating as the reason he couldn't do what he'd *already* done, which was
> a red flag to me.

I understand. I'm starting to pay closer attention to a red flag or two that
I had been ignoring previously. For a second, I actually considered the
possibility this is another snit sock; but, they're able to parse
information from the other thread so...it's not snit. :)

>> He's got what I would call a mental block combined with a total
>> lack of desire. Just my opinion, though. I was burned by another vendor
>> for a product which did the same thing, so, I have no interest in the
>> one he's using. For him, it works. With the ESP or without, I can roll
>> my own; and by doing so, it's never going to just one day stop working
>> because the manufacturer decided they didn't want to support it anymore
>> AND they didn't want you to continue to use it as it was with the
>> understanding you're on your own.
>
> As you alluded to, not everything needs to be 'smart'.

Ayep.

[Gremlin]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up8psv$ihjk$1...@dont-email.me Mon, 29 Jan

2024 18:13:50 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 29/01/2024 16:13, Gremlin wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> Hmm. After re-reading my own post, I can see how I could easily come
>> off as a bit of an asshole. Which wasn't the intention.
>
> Not to me you didn't? Why would you if chatting between friends?

Friends? Hmm....

>> One of my best friends that
>> I met in elementary school has dyslexia, and, it didn't stop him from
>> serving for 8years in the army.
>
> Probably didn't need to read or write much, just pull the trigger. ;-)

I do see the smiley, but, he didn't spend that much time shooting. He did a
lot of driving.

> Then maybe you do not understand how dyslexia and / or dyscalculia can
> actually affect people?

I do understand to a point how dyslexia works. I already told you about a
friend I went to school with who has it. He was able to do 8yrs in the Army,
mostly driving big ass trucks around. But, he had to know where to take
them, so he had to do a bit of reading. Yea, he struggled in some respects
in school, but, he didn't fail. I actually taught him how to write some code
in the ASIC language before he shipped out. If I can teach someone to write
in ASIC when they have no programming or computer background whatsoever,
with dyslexia, there's no reason you can't parse those scripts your HA
system relies on; if it was something you really wanted to do yourself.

At some point, along the way, you had to be able to read AND understand what
you're reading, disabilities aside.

>> He's got what I would call a mental block
>
> 100%

I understand.

>> combined with a total
>> lack of desire.
>
> Not at all, or I'm guessing I wouldn't have been trying all sorts of
> coding over a period exceeding 50 years?

50 years and you're still at the trying stage? C'mon...

> Something you are fully entitled to. ;-)
>
>> I was burned by another vendor for
>> a product which did the same thing, so, I have no interest in the one
>> he's using.
>
> Except, with this 'product' there is no vendor as such. It's free to
> download and use by anyone with no real restrictions. If you pay you can
> have 8Extra* feature but they have only been introduced fairly recently.

:) Linux Mint 17.3 KDE edition is free to download and use as well; but the
thing is, there's no longer any support for this particular distro. I'm
completely on my own. :) At some point, when the developers get bored with
this project, or fork it too much due to internal conflicts, it'll go the
same way most other open source projects tend to go.

>> For him, it works.
>
> It does, pretty well all the time and easily and flexibly.
>
> Like, The front hall light comes on between Sun rise and set. I
> previously has 'sensor' light that would do similar but were restricted
> re sensitivity and lamp options.

I dunno if it's my electrician background, electronics background, or
computer programming background; but I know several ways already in which I
could duplicate that functionality, without using the HA system. I dunno
man. Maybe I'm just more of a hands on kinda guy?

> I have a PIR by the front door and what I mean to do is configure HA to
> turn the light on if it's not already on and after the front door has
> been opened and closed and movement is *then* detected.

I've got some commercial grade light switches installed which do similiar.
They turn the lights on when you enter, wait a few minutes and if they don't
detect any motion, they turn the lights back off. They aren't smart devices
and they don't talk to a central controller of any kind.

I've actually wired quite a few smart houses; I'm familiar with several ways
in which to do it. Using controllers like you have, or pre configuring the
house electrical system for smart switches, smart detectors, etc.

>> I can roll my own;
>
> I would *really* like to know how you get on covering all HA can do
> yourself! And that's not a slur on you or your skills, just you would
> have to play catch up with what is now an multi man dev team with
> thousands of individual devs submitting their own fixes and features.

play catch up? Hmm. I think we have a miscommunications here, and I really
don't feel like interacting with a snit #2...

> It's like you are saying that if Mark Shuttleworh closed Canonical, all
> instances of Ubuntu installed out there would stop working? <shrug>

Not even close. Your analogies are awful...

> If you design an app to interface your home made electronics (to gain a
> fraction of the functionality / flexibility of HA), couldn't Apple /
> Samsung also stop that working?

home made electronics? :) Oh, you think i'm using my prototyping boards you
see in my videos for everything I do? You don't think i'm building my own
NE555 or NE556 or CD4017, etc do you? Otherwise, what are you calling home
made electronics?

> But each to their own etc. ;-)

Indeed

[Gremlin]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up8ttv$j8us$1...@dont-email.me Mon, 29 Jan

2024 19:22:37 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 29/01/2024 15:17, Gremlin wrote:
>> I already know how to
>> program and control the ESP32, I know what the pins on the board all do
>> and how to control them. Including the ones not meant for resistors.
>
> Cool, another nice person able to help with my programming issues than!
> ;-)

I can't help you with the issues you actually have. They aren't really
programming related.

>> Relays are
>> childsplay; simple mechanical devices which can be noisy.
>
> Well, sure, conceptually they are, but what about drive current,
> opto-isolation or not, c/o time, contact layout (MBB, BBM), output
> current / voltage rating, inductive load switching tolerance ...

Unless I'm concerned about reverse voltage back emf, why would I need opto
isolation, or snubbing? I realize you're attempting to talk down to me now.
I will respond as you have asked. :)

> On my charge multiplexer solution (HA + ESP32 + 8 way relay board), not
> only have I wired the relays in such a way to prevent the risk of more
> than one battery being connected to the charger at any time, I've also
> installed a 'soft interlock within the ESP code to also manage that in
> software.

But you're still using mechanical relays? So, efficiency of your circuit is
not a priority.

>> I prefer using
>> "solid state" ones when possible.
>
> I've tried using one on my 3D printer and it got VERY hot so I went back
> to a 40A relay.

What kind of 3D printer do you have? What was the relay specifically
controlling? the heated bed? the print head assembly? I'm curious to knwo
what's drawing 40a or anywhere near it on your printer. And, of course, I'm
interested in knowing how many volts we're talking about here going thru the
relay where it was getting hot on you?

>> A curtain controller could be nothing more
>> than a simple motor driven gear box with limit switches.
>
> Nope. Want another go? (and yes, still ONLY talking physical curtain
> drive and motion limit control). ;-)

Hmm. You seem to snip in between sentences and respond much like snit does.
Any particular reason for this? The followup sentence clarified things. Or I
thought it did?

>> I don't know how
>> complex or simple your version of one is.
>
> I thought you just told us. ;-)

Hmmm...

"A curtain controller could be nothing more than a simple motor driven gear
box with limit switches."

I want to know what you understood that sentence to mean.

>> I do have previous experience with
>> home automation.
>
> What was it ooi?

oh.. a wiseass. :) This could become a fun little thread after all.

>> I'll roll my own.
>
> Good luck with that!

I really don't know why you think this is such a difficult thing to do?

> Using a commercial product.

Umm, the first time, no. I didn't opt for that option until many years
later; as in, when I became an adult.

>> I'm very curious to know why you don't think I or someone else couldn't
>> do this?
>
> The 'this' I'm talking of requires a massive team of people mate. If you
> think you can cover all that on your own, may I be your agent and
> introduce you to Palus who is to founder of Nabu Casa / HA! ;-)

I see. I'm sorry, but, I just don't see the magic/can't be duplicated by
another that you seem to think exists here?

>> Is that what you really think
>> or have I misunderstood you?
>
> No, I really know you couldn't duplicate HA on your own.

And you base this on what specifically?

> Again, this isn't about you but 'one'. I'm pretty sure you don't think
> that just because someone can put up a shelf that they can (would be
> guaranteed to be able to) build a house?

Should I tell you that I'm a roughneck/blue collar worker now or let you dig
a deeper hole and share what you know of construction?
I hope it's significantly more than you've shown understanding of how to
control HA to do what you want it to do. But, the fact you require what
amounts to hand holding from SC and Apd doesn't give me much hope. You know
fuckall about me, but you're going to proceed to make assumptions about what
you think I can/can't do or do/don't know how to do. The rest of your post
doesn't get much better, assuming that I bypassed safety thermal cutouts,
etc. I didn't, and never claimed to have done anything so stupid to any of
my electrical appliances. I have things in that room that won't like
excessive high temps/low temps, etc. Even if a fire doesn't actually start,
some stuff in that room can be destroyed long before the temps for
spontaneous combustion are reached.

So, you either aren't really reading what I've written about this, or you're
trying to troll me in some manner? Either way, I'm not amused.

> I'm not sure what is being wasted here? the chances are, one ESP32 would
> be cheaper than a decent capacitor? If it's not using up components you
> already have, how are you going to make the display when you need a new
> TV. ;-)

WTF are you paying for capacitors where they are more expensive than an ESP?
Holy shit. Are you servicing some very special radio gear power supplies or
something?

> (Oh, and if you need components, I have a large box full I can send you
> FOC!). ;-)

Awe. While I appreciate the ever so snarky act hiding as kindness, I'm good,
thanks all the same. I've got a little 'addiction'; I buy kits of components
I haven't even got a use for at the time and I've been doing this since
before I was a teenager. I've probably had to toss so many electrolytics
just because they were too old; never even used one time on any projects,
but, too old to trust - and yes, these would often fail cap tests and even
if they didn't, I still won't use an electrolytic cap that's twenty years
old, or even close to it. It's just asking for trouble.

>> Your entire house is automated, I suppose?
>
> Where appropriate, yes.
>
>> This one is not; and I don't want
>> it to be, not yet anyway.
>
> So you do want it fully automated then. ;-)

I already have auto on/off lighting, etc. And a single room with climate
control that runs on the board I built. It's not a prototyping board if
that's what you're thinking. I sent the gerber files off to a manufacturing
plant and they sent me blank boards back. I soldered my components where I
set them up to live on the board. :) It's just as professional looking of a
board as you'd find from any number of vendors who have pcbs inside their
offerings.

>> An if/then statement doesn't make something 'smart'; doesn't show
>> 'intelligence' imho.
>
> I'm pretty sure that's not the suggestion re 'Smart' kit so that
> interpretation is on you. ;-)

Relaying it's current status to me, and being remote controllable, isn't
'smart' to me; that's a buzzword for ignorant consumers.

>>
>>
>>> My split AC / air source
>>> heat pump also has a display that allows me to see such things and I'm
>>> gagging to make the whole thing smart.
>>
>> Smart in what sense though?
>
> On / off. Live indication of it's running mode from anywhere in the
> house (or world if I wanted to expand it that far). How often it goes
> into defrost mode when offering a/c or de-humidification, how different
> settings might impact the running cost, activation / de-activation based
> on occupancy etc etc.

Yea, as I said, smart is a buzzword for ignorant consumers. There's no
intelligence, nothing smart about it. In terms of the program/routine behind
the magic that seems to impress you, it's not complex.

>> Able to have a conversation with it?
>
> Sort of. 'YOu can manage what you can measure'.

So no.

>> Or, remote
>> control it from another location? If the latter, you could modify it's
>> control pad to let your remote devices take the place of your human
>> fingers and press the buttons for you.
>
> I could indeed (FingerBots). But it would be far more subtle to not have
> to do it that way. Eg, you could use an ESP32 and a relay board to use a
> 'volt free' way on interfacing things where you may not have access the
> schematic.

Finger bots? You would need the schematic for a pad control board? Really?
You couldn't figure out which pad went to which wire, without the
schematic?!?

> You don't want to have features with HA that you probably enjoy with
> other things? Logical inconsistency.

hmm. I know one other poster who's used that term...

>> My router does bluetooth? News to me.
>
> Ever worse if your devices communicated using BT! But no, I was talking
> WiFi.

You think wifi is unhackable do you? I bet if you fork your router details,
I can find atleast one 0day exploit concerning it's firmware.
Possibly more than that. Oh, you think the password keeps you safe and
secure? :)

> What, you have bypassed the thermal trip AND fuse as well? No wonder you
> are worried!

Okay, snit, you've had your fun. I wrote nothing of doing either of those
things; which would be an insanely stupid thing for me to do.

> Interesting chat, thanks.

Looks like this sock has fooled a few, eh?

[Gremlin]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up8oed$i5us$2...@dont-email.me Mon, 29 Jan 2024

17:49:01 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 29/01/2024 15:17, Gremlin wrote:
> I take a perfectly good de-humidifier and make it 'smart' *without*
> having to open it up. I can turn it on and off by time and humidity and
> have it notify me when the collection tank is full. I can monitor and
> log it's running and therefore monitor and determine it's running costs.

And that functionality makes the device 'smart' to you? That's all it takes to
qualify?

> And I can do all that without having to design and build any
> electronics, write any configuration files or write an app for my phone.

For you, with your struggles, it's a good setup.

> But then it sounds like we have different goals. You want the journey, I
> want to be at the destination. ;-)

I learn more from the journey. If I wanted to do it the easy way, I'd resume
your approach. Unlike yourself though, I wouldn't need to ask my co geeks for
help with configuring the scripts, on either side of it. Sorry, but, ehm,
that's BS waste of time to me.

[Snit]

On Jan 30, 2024 at 2:47:42 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB109AA...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
> news:up8k85$hg1h$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Mon, 29 Jan 2024
> 16:37:25 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-29, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>> Hmm. After re-reading my own post, I can see how I could easily come
>>> off as a bit of an asshole. Which wasn't the intention. One of my best
>>> friends that I met in elementary school has dyslexia, and, it didn't
>>> stop him from serving for 8years in the army. Like you, I do think if
>>> he wanted to do it, he could.
>>
>> I don't even know if he's been diagnosed, but it's something he's been
>> stating as the reason he couldn't do what he'd *already* done, which was
>> a red flag to me.
>
> I understand. I'm starting to pay closer attention to a red flag or two that
> I had been ignoring previously. For a second, I actually considered the
> possibility this is another snit sock; but, they're able to parse
> information from the other thread so...it's not snit. :)

You said you were going to focus on my computer and not trolling me. OK, you
may have said just in that thread -- but you are certainly breaking the spirit
of your word.

>
>>> He's got what I would call a mental block combined with a total
>>> lack of desire. Just my opinion, though. I was burned by another vendor
>>> for a product which did the same thing, so, I have no interest in the
>>> one he's using. For him, it works. With the ESP or without, I can roll
>>> my own; and by doing so, it's never going to just one day stop working
>>> because the manufacturer decided they didn't want to support it anymore
>>> AND they didn't want you to continue to use it as it was with the
>>> understanding you're on your own.
>>
>> As you alluded to, not everything needs to be 'smart'.
>
> Ayep.


--

[Snit]

On Jan 30, 2024 at 2:47:42 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB109AA...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> play catch up? Hmm. I think we have a miscommunications here, and I really
> don't feel like interacting with a snit #2...

Your focus on me is not healthy. And keep in mind how I interact: I am honest
and honorable but not afraid to call you out on your BS, but do so without
ever sinking to your level. Thanks for admitting you fear that and do not want
to deal with others who are like that.

[Snit]

On Jan 30, 2024 at 2:47:43 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB109AA...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up8oed$i5us$2...@dont-email.me Mon, 29 Jan 2024
> 17:49:01 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 29/01/2024 15:17, Gremlin wrote:
>> I take a perfectly good de-humidifier and make it 'smart' *without*
>> having to open it up. I can turn it on and off by time and humidity and
>> have it notify me when the collection tank is full. I can monitor and
>> log it's running and therefore monitor and determine it's running costs.
>
> And that functionality makes the device 'smart' to you? That's all it takes to
> qualify?

Aren't such devices usually deemed "smart" devices?

[T i m]

On 30/01/2024 21:47, Gremlin wrote:
> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up8psv$ihjk$1...@dont-email.me Mon, 29 Jan
> 2024 18:13:50 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 29/01/2024 16:13, Gremlin wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Hmm. After re-reading my own post, I can see how I could easily come
>>> off as a bit of an asshole. Which wasn't the intention.
>>
>> Not to me you didn't? Why would you if chatting between friends?
>
> Friends? Hmm....

Well, virtual / usenet / things_in_common friends at least, or so I thought?

It seems something has triggered you for some reason so I think it's
best if I leave you to cool down and hopefully see there were no bad
intentions from this side.

Cheers, T i m

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-30, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
> news:up8k85$hg1h$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Mon, 29 Jan 2024
> 16:37:25 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-29, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>> Hmm. After re-reading my own post, I can see how I could easily come
>>> off as a bit of an asshole. Which wasn't the intention. One of my best
>>> friends that I met in elementary school has dyslexia, and, it didn't
>>> stop him from serving for 8years in the army. Like you, I do think if
>>> he wanted to do it, he could.
>>
>> I don't even know if he's been diagnosed, but it's something he's been
>> stating as the reason he couldn't do what he'd *already* done, which was
>> a red flag to me.
>
> I understand. I'm starting to pay closer attention to a red flag or two that
> I had been ignoring previously. For a second, I actually considered the
> possibility this is another snit sock; but, they're able to parse
> information from the other thread so...it's not snit. :)

LOL! Tim has knowledge that Glasser would never spend time accruing.

[Snit]

On Jan 31, 2024 at 8:36:19 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<updpdj$1j19s$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

> On 2024-01-30, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
>> news:up8k85$hg1h$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Mon, 29 Jan 2024
>> 16:37:25 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-01-29, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>>> Hmm. After re-reading my own post, I can see how I could easily come
>>>> off as a bit of an asshole. Which wasn't the intention. One of my best
>>>> friends that I met in elementary school has dyslexia, and, it didn't
>>>> stop him from serving for 8years in the army. Like you, I do think if
>>>> he wanted to do it, he could.
>>>
>>> I don't even know if he's been diagnosed, but it's something he's been
>>> stating as the reason he couldn't do what he'd *already* done, which was
>>> a red flag to me.
>>
>> I understand. I'm starting to pay closer attention to a red flag or two that
>> I had been ignoring previously. For a second, I actually considered the
>> possibility this is another snit sock; but, they're able to parse
>> information from the other thread so...it's not snit. :)
>
> LOL! Tim has knowledge that Glasser would never spend time accruing.

You are the one who has spent TWO DECADES focused on trolling me... having NO
other accomplishments to show that whole time.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-31, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2024 at 8:36:19 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
><updpdj$1j19s$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:
>
>> On 2024-01-30, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
>>> news:up8k85$hg1h$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Mon, 29 Jan 2024
>>> 16:37:25 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-01-29, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>>>> Hmm. After re-reading my own post, I can see how I could easily come
>>>>> off as a bit of an asshole. Which wasn't the intention. One of my best
>>>>> friends that I met in elementary school has dyslexia, and, it didn't
>>>>> stop him from serving for 8years in the army. Like you, I do think if
>>>>> he wanted to do it, he could.
>>>>
>>>> I don't even know if he's been diagnosed, but it's something he's been
>>>> stating as the reason he couldn't do what he'd *already* done, which was
>>>> a red flag to me.
>>>
>>> I understand. I'm starting to pay closer attention to a red flag or two that
>>> I had been ignoring previously. For a second, I actually considered the
>>> possibility this is another snit sock; but, they're able to parse
>>> information from the other thread so...it's not snit. :)
>>
>> LOL! Tim has knowledge that Glasser would never spend time accruing.
>
> You are the one who has spent TWO DECADES focused on trolling me...

In *your* mind... but in the period I've accrued knowledge you would
never attempt to accrue.

> having NO other accomplishments to show that whole time.

So why are *you* the one who comes off so clueless on so many things,
Mr. Projector?

[pothead]

On 2024-01-31, Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none> wrote:
> On 2024-01-30, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
>> news:up8k85$hg1h$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Mon, 29 Jan 2024
>> 16:37:25 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-01-29, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>>> Hmm. After re-reading my own post, I can see how I could easily come
>>>> off as a bit of an asshole. Which wasn't the intention. One of my best
>>>> friends that I met in elementary school has dyslexia, and, it didn't
>>>> stop him from serving for 8years in the army. Like you, I do think if
>>>> he wanted to do it, he could.
>>>
>>> I don't even know if he's been diagnosed, but it's something he's been
>>> stating as the reason he couldn't do what he'd *already* done, which was
>>> a red flag to me.
>>
>> I understand. I'm starting to pay closer attention to a red flag or two that
>> I had been ignoring previously. For a second, I actually considered the
>> possibility this is another snit sock; but, they're able to parse
>> information from the other thread so...it's not snit. :)
>
> LOL! Tim has knowledge that Glasser would never spend time accruing.

Indeed!
I find Tim's posts interesting.
Snit's drivel is boring even though I only see replies.


--
pothead
Tommy Chong For President 2024.
Crazy Joe Biden Is A Demented Imbecile.
Impeach Joe Biden 2022.

[Snit]

On Jan 31, 2024 at 9:02:13 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<updqu5$1j19s$5...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

Two decades of your life and all you have to show for it is a failed flood
bot, anger issues, lies, and a horrid victim mentality.

[Steve Carroll]

Glasser rarely talks about tech but, when he does, it's usually yet
another 'intro' towards his *real* goal. Look at what he's doing with
Gremlin and that 'iMac fix', it's clear what his 'use' of that iMac is,
and it has nothing to do with fixing it. By now (actually, well before
he started talking to Gremlin), he should have exhausted all the
obvious stuff... things like:

<https://macpaw.com/how-to/fix-usb-ports-on-mac>

He just told DB that his computer almost boots, at times, that's not a
USB issue (he very well may have that, too).

[Steve Carroll]

You just described yourself, Mr. Projector.

[Snit]

On Jan 31, 2024 at 9:13:39 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<updrjj$1j19s$7...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

Here you are speaking FOR me.

To troll me. To get attention. To fish for info.

> Look at what he's doing with
> Gremlin and that 'iMac fix', it's clear what his 'use' of that iMac is,
> and it has nothing to do with fixing it.

I have made it clear I am not that concerned about fixing it. The repairs
would likely cost about what the machine would. But maybe on the way I, and
Gremlin, can learn things.

Good to see David jump in and suggest testing the keyboard with another Mac. I
had already done so, but it shows he thinks of good troubleshooting steps
Gremlin neglected to think of.

And maybe Gremlin will surprise me and find a way to fix the machine. So far I
have not been that impressed -- he could not imagine that Command+Option+R
options were not on the drive. He seemingly got confused with that and with
the restore partition. To be fair I mixed up some terms and language and maybe
that was part of his confusion... and those errors are on me.

> By now (actually, well before
> he started talking to Gremlin), he should have exhausted all the
> obvious stuff... things like:
>
> <https://macpaw.com/how-to/fix-usb-ports-on-mac>

What things there are you pretended I did NOT do. And you do realize that the
2017 iMac does not have USB-C ports. Right? Right? LOL!

> He just told DB that his computer almost boots, at times, that's not a
> USB issue (he very well may have that, too).

And off you go twisting and lying. As you do.

[Snit]

On Jan 31, 2024 at 9:14:37 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<updrlc$1j19s$8...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

YOU are the one who has pushed your idiotic one-sided war and spend untold
hours making a failed flood bot. You are the one who even recently continued
to do online searched of me, lied about them, and then played victim over it.
You are the one who had the police get involved over your harassment of my
clients. You are the one who had your own family do an intervention... worried
enough about your obsession with me they reached out to talk to me about it.

You have not shown a single accomplishment in TWENTY YEARS. Your life has been
focused on your one-sided was against me. A war you have continued to lose.

[David B.]

On 31 Jan 2024 at 16:13:39 GMT, "Steve Carroll" <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>

That's a very good article. :-D

I've used each and every one of those techniques over the past 15 years.

[Snit]

On Jan 31, 2024 at 9:25:57 AM MST, "David B." wrote
<l1vakl...@mid.individual.net>:

Given its focus on USB-C, it is not fully relent to the iMac in question.
Still, much of that applies to it.

>
> I've used each and every one of those techniques over the past 15 years.

Carroll fabricated a story where I had NOT. Even when he shares tech stuff the
subtext generally is he is lying about me.

>
>> He just told DB that his computer almost boots, at times, that's not a
>> USB issue (he very well may have that, too).

[pothead]

Snit, the person who operated a computer repair business but can't repair his own computer.
You can't make this stuff up!

[pothead]

+1000
And once again snit brings up the topic of his flood bot.
He simply can't help himself.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-31, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Glasser rarely talks about tech but, when he does, it's usually yet
>> another 'intro' towards his *real* goal.
>
> Here you are speaking FOR me.

I'm "speaking" of a reality that everyone in this ng and others has seen
for years.

>> Look at what he's doing with
>> Gremlin and that 'iMac fix', it's clear what his 'use' of that iMac is,
>> and it has nothing to do with fixing it.
>
> I have made it clear I am not that concerned about fixing it.

I'm fully aware of your 'use' of it, I have been from the beginning and
said as much. Why can't you just do what you agreed to do for once in
your life?

> The repairs would likely cost about what the machine would.

And you were told that by an Apple genius who would not address things
at the component level (like Gremlin is talking about), and who had a
vested interest in selling you another computer.

> But maybe on the way I, and Gremlin, can learn things.

The only thing you're 'teaching' him right now is you're doing what I
said you'd do, as opposed to what you agreed to do.

> Good to see David jump in and suggest testing the keyboard with another Mac. I
> had already done so, but it shows he thinks of good troubleshooting steps
> Gremlin neglected to think of.
>
> And maybe Gremlin will surprise me and find a way to fix the machine.

Your (expected) attitude isn't helping him.

> So far I have not been that impressed

He might as well be 'instructing' a crash test dummy. You're clearly
trying to do what I expected, play gotcha. It's bullsh*t.

>> By now (actually, well before
>> he started talking to Gremlin), he should have exhausted all the
>> obvious stuff... things like:
>>
>> <https://macpaw.com/how-to/fix-usb-ports-on-mac>
>
> What things there are you pretended I did NOT do. And you do realize that the
> 2017 iMac does not have USB-C ports. Right? Right? LOL!

I didn't look... but it doesn't matter as resetting SMC is something you
and the Apple Genius should've tried (presumably, the AG did) to deal
with USB, and other, issues on your model.

>> He just told DB that his computer almost boots, at times, that's not a
>> USB issue (he very well may have that, too).
>
> And off you go twisting and lying. As you do.

?

[Snit]

On Jan 31, 2024 at 10:25:24 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<updvq4$1k7ke$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

You speak for me, pretending goals you create FOR me are somehow mine. You get
called out on this and just dodge... and speak for OTHERS! Nope. *I* am the
one who decided my goals. You do not get to control me.

You then pretend my goal with the iMac which I am working with Gremlin on
fixing is something other than fixing it. You made that up. Then you pretend
we agree. Again you try to speak for me.

You then jump into pretending Gremlin has nothing to learn, when I have
explained things about Mac recovery he did not know, and David and I spoke of
testing the keyboard in ways he did not think of (not even saying he could not
-- it was basic -- but he missed it). Your need to attack has gotten the
better of you again.

You then go back to pretending I have not done steps I have specifically
talked about doing. LOL! You just make things up and troll and lie.

And when called out on your twisting and lying you just respond with a
question mark... like you are so out of touch with reality you cannot help but
twist and lie.

You used to be better. Twenty years of you obsessing over me and you have
nothing to show for your life in that time.

[Gremlin]

Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>

news:updpdj$1j19s$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Wed, 31 Jan 2024
15:36:19 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 2024-01-30, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:

>> I understand. I'm starting to pay closer attention to a red flag or two
>> that I had been ignoring previously. For a second, I actually
>> considered the possibility this is another snit sock; but, they're able
>> to parse information from the other thread so...it's not snit. :)
>
> LOL! Tim has knowledge that Glasser would never spend time accruing.

True. I don't understand why Tim seems to have the attitude he's recently
taken towards me regarding HA and ESP...Jumped off the fucking tracks with
assumptions ranging from I can't duplicate the damn thing, to I don't know
to properly lubricate bearings for a small 4 pole AC motor, to I must have
disabled the thermal safeties on my fucking heater and AC unit. FFS. I
realize he doesn't know me from susan or adam, but, seriously? the
assumptions? Can he not just read some of the posts I've written about
various things, instead, of assuming I'm a fucking idiot, or that I have the
learning disabilities that he claims to have? Maybe review a few of my
tiktok videos to get some idea that I might have some knowledge, atleast, of
electronics? and programming? oh, and electrical.. uhh, you know, the shit
I've *always said* and never altered stories about that I do..?

FFS, I have a video that shows people the main source code to the ORIGINAL
IROK virus. v1. fucking 0 at that on my tiktok page as a social experiment
for over a year now.

Writing a computer virus/worm in ASIC (Yes, IROK is both!)

<https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8WmBL35/>

Do you know how many people have commented about what ASIC reminds them of,
instead of what i'm actually showing them? :) Yea, checkout the comments;
it's hillarious. If anyone did figure it out, they aren't saying in the
comments. :) It's not something you can find anywhere online, because I
never shared it previously. It wasn't given to me, I have it because *I*
wrote the fucking thing, and the ones that followed.

[Gremlin]

pothead <pot...@snakebite.com> news:updr4j$1j85g$3...@dont-email.me Wed, 31

Jan 2024 16:05:39 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 2024-01-31, Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none> wrote:
>> On 2024-01-30, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>> I understand. I'm starting to pay closer attention to a red flag or
>>> two that I had been ignoring previously. For a second, I actually
>>> considered the possibility this is another snit sock; but, they're
>>> able to parse information from the other thread so...it's not snit. :)
>>
>> LOL! Tim has knowledge that Glasser would never spend time accruing.
>
> Indeed!
> I find Tim's posts interesting.

As do I. I just don't understand the out of left field comments he wrote
towards me concerning HA and ESP...
I realize he doesn't know much/anything about me, but, to just make such
assumptions (which aren't valid) - pissed me off for some reason.

[T i m]

On 01/02/2024 20:50, Gremlin wrote:

<snip>

> True. I don't understand why Tim seems to have the attitude he's recently
> taken towards me regarding HA and ESP...

This should be interesting ...

> Jumped off the fucking tracks

What, me? I think you are confused?

> with
> assumptions ranging from I can't duplicate the damn thing,

You just made that up. Try and find *anything* where I suggested that.

> to I don't know
> to properly lubricate bearings for a small 4 pole AC motor,

Sorry, I must have missed the bit where your mentor told you about
heating the sintered bearings to re-lubricated them? Or maybe you just
forgot to mention that bit?

> to I must have
> disabled the thermal safeties on my fucking heater and AC unit.

Nope, once again that's all down to you.

> FFS.

Quite. Had you been drinking or your bablefish stopped working?

> I
> realize he doesn't know me from susan or adam, but, seriously?

Quite, seriously! After all the positive conversations we have had, you
think I would suddenly ... out of the blue start attacking you as you
obviously seem to think I have done?

> the
> assumptions?

The miss-interpenetrations and misunderstandings!

> Can he not just read some of the posts I've written about
> various things, instead,

I have, that's how I know what you know?

> of assuming I'm a fucking idiot,

Oh dear, princess! ;-)

> or that I have the
> learning disabilities that he claims to have?

Oh dear. ;-(

> Maybe review a few of my
> tiktok videos to get some idea that I might have some knowledge,

I have and have never said you have no knowledge (or anything close).

> atleast, of
> electronics? and programming?

<Shrug>

> oh, and electrical.. uhh, you know, the shit
> I've *always said* and never altered stories about that I do..?

And where have I suggested you have?
>
<snip more crazed ranting>

Mate, you have obviously really picked up the shitty end of the stick
here if you let someone you don't know just chatting with you send *you*
off the tracks so much!

One day I hope you look back and learn from all this, learning that this
has all come out of your own imagination.

So, yes, I did ask you if you hearing the bearing (in oil) like your
bearing mentor would have undoubtably told you and I ONLY asked that out
of general interest to learn if you really did service the bearing with
longevity in mind.

It's no skin off my arse if you didn't, I care less if your fan heater
seizes up tomorrow or never, I was just asking ...

Chill (but doubt you will, now you have lost it this much). ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Gremlin]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:uph1po$280tf$1...@dont-email.me Thu, 01 Feb

2024 21:17:42 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 01/02/2024 20:50, Gremlin wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> True. I don't understand why Tim seems to have the attitude he's recently
>> taken towards me regarding HA and ESP...
>
> This should be interesting ...
>
>> Jumped off the fucking tracks
>
> What, me? I think you are confused?

Maybe you don't like my description for it?

>> with
>> assumptions ranging from I can't duplicate the damn thing,
>
> You just made that up. Try and find *anything* where I suggested that.

Hmm. Okay.
MID: <up4ver$3qe2g$1...@dont-email.me>
<http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=170682533400>

I wrote:
> I hate the idea of wasting one of these micro controllers for something I
> can whip up using old school electronic components, though.

And your response to that was this:

Except you can't do that can you ... you can't centrally automate,
control and otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can
knock up? That would be like saying you can build a push cart so why
build a kitcar. ;-)

***

So, would you like to explain how I misunderstood you, or, as you just put
it, "You just made that up"; that's something I've seen from snit posts, not
from others, and it's not the first time you've used the same words as he
does. The only reason I'm not certain that you're a sock of his is because
you're able to have an ongoing semi technical discussion with Apd, and i've
never seen snit able to do that for very long. If it wasn't for that, based
on your recent comments; I wouldn't be so sure you weren't...

As it is right now, you just accused me of making shit up about you when I
didn't! And you tried it in the same exact way as snit has done before..
So...Care to explain yourself?

>> to I don't know
>> to properly lubricate bearings for a small 4 pole AC motor,
>
> Sorry, I must have missed the bit where your mentor told you about
> heating the sintered bearings to re-lubricated them? Or maybe you just
> forgot to mention that bit?

I didn't mention that because those are not the kind of bearings you're
supposed to be applying heat to in order to apply more oil to them. You're
confusing the bearings in that 4 pole motor for a larger one which may/may
not require heat to re apply oil to them. It really depends on the specific
type of bearings used. And I suspect you are well aware of that.

>> to I must have
>> disabled the thermal safeties on my fucking heater and AC unit.
>
> Nope, once again that's all down to you.

Yep, again, that's what you assumed i'd done and you proceeded to roll with
that. Do I really need to supply another MID? I can, if you want.

> Quite, seriously! After all the positive conversations we have had, you
> think I would suddenly ... out of the blue start attacking you as you
> obviously seem to think I have done?

I know you've expressed assumptions you have concerning what you think I
can/can't do or what I know or don't know how to do. FFS, you're still
trying to come at me about the bearings I oiled. Wrong type of bearings to
be applying heat for re-oiling purposes though, but, hey, a bearing is a
bearing right? heh. Let's take a fucking torch to that tiny ass motors
bearings then. Jesus, uhh, no, we won't be doing that.

>> the
>> assumptions?
>
> The miss-interpenetrations and misunderstandings!

You sound more and more like snit to me, boss. He's always jabbering about
'misunderstandings' when he was actually lying his fucking ass off.

>> Can he not just read some of the posts I've written about
>> various things, instead,
>
> I have, that's how I know what you know?

You must have issues with comprehension you didn't disclose then.

> So, yes, I did ask you if you hearing the bearing (in oil) like your
> bearing mentor would have undoubtably told you and I ONLY asked that out
> of general interest to learn if you really did service the bearing with
> longevity in mind.

My mentor as you put it would have asked me what the fuck I thought I was
doing the moment he caught me applying heat to that particular bearing. And
I don't doubt he might have punched me when I told him I was heating it to
re-oil it. Not installing a new one, not trying to remove that one from the
shaft, No, I'm using heat to re-oil it; yea he would have decked me for
doing something I know better than to be doing. I've applied heat to
bearings to seat them on a shaft, and I can't remember the last time I used
heat to re-oil a bearing already on a shaft. I think one of us is confused
as to when you use heat with bearings?

<https://www.acorn-ind.co.uk/insight/how-to-know-when-you-should-use-a-bearin
g-heater/>

<https://www.bdsbearing.com/blog/bearing-lubrication#ch2>

I don't see anything in either of those urls suggesting you use heat to
re-oil the kind of bearing used on that little motor in my heater. I do see
various methods discussed concerning oiling them, but one thing you don't
see suggested is to apply heat while you're oiling one! Am I just missing
something, Tim? I'm always interested in learning new things, so feel free
to educate me with when I should be using heat to re-oil a bearing that's
already on a shaft and pressed in that I don't want to replace, just re-oil.
Go ahead, teach me. I'm all ears.

> It's no skin off my arse if you didn't, I care less if your fan heater
> seizes up tomorrow or never, I was just asking ...

No worries, it's oiled and running just as fast as it was last year when I
serviced it. It has no issues. You do not apply heat to re-oil those
particular bearings.

> Chill (but doubt you will, now you have lost it this much). ;-(

Another snit like comment. Like I said, Tim, if you weren't able to hold a
discussion with Apd, I would strongly suspect you of being another snit
sock. An improved, Sigmond specifically.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:OhfuN.65990$IfLe....@fx36.iad Tue,
30 Jan 2024 23:06:22 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 30, 2024 at 2:47:43槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote

> <XnsB109AA...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up8oed$i5us$2...@dont-email.me Mon, 29
>> Jan 2024 17:49:01 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>
>>> On 29/01/2024 15:17, Gremlin wrote:
>>> I take a perfectly good de-humidifier and make it 'smart' *without*
>>> having to open it up. I can turn it on and off by time and humidity
>>> and have it notify me when the collection tank is full. I can monitor
>>> and log it's running and therefore monitor and determine it's running
>>> costs.
>>
>> And that functionality makes the device 'smart' to you? That's all it
>> takes to qualify?
>
> Aren't such devices usually deemed "smart" devices?

Which is why I wrote it's a buzzword, snit. C'mon man. There's nothing
really smart about this. That would be like saying one of my RC heli's is
'smart' because it can report it's status to me while i'm flying it with
it's remote controller. Is it a smart RC heli now because it reports
battery health, main rotor and tail rotor rpms, and it's
location/direction of travel back to the controller so I can see what's
going on? That is not what I consider smart. There's nothing intelligent
going on, no decisions being made by the RC, it's just reporting data and
taking instructions from my remote.

[T i m]

On 01/02/2024 22:44, Gremlin wrote:
> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:uph1po$280tf$1...@dont-email.me Thu, 01 Feb
> 2024 21:17:42 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 01/02/2024 20:50, Gremlin wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> True. I don't understand why Tim seems to have the attitude he's recently
>>> taken towards me regarding HA and ESP...
>>
>> This should be interesting ...
>>
>>> Jumped off the fucking tracks
>>
>> What, me? I think you are confused?
>
> Maybe you don't like my description for it?

Not don't like, just surprised at your reaction, considering.

>
>>> with
>>> assumptions ranging from I can't duplicate the damn thing,
>>
>> You just made that up. Try and find *anything* where I suggested that.
>
> Hmm. Okay.
> MID: <up4ver$3qe2g$1...@dont-email.me>
> <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=170682533400>
>
> I wrote:
>> I hate the idea of wasting one of these micro controllers for something I
>> can whip up using old school electronic components, though.
>
> And your response to that was this:
>
> Except you can't do that can you ... you can't centrally automate,
> control and otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can
> knock up? That would be like saying you can build a push cart so why
> build a kitcar. ;-)
>
> ***
>
> So, would you like to explain how I misunderstood you, or, as you just put
> it, "You just made that up";

Because it's true, you can't 'you can't centrally automate, control and
otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can knock up. I'm
not saying *you* can't do that, I'm saying it's not realistic to do.

I designed and built a multi-program 8 channel light sequencer for the
disco I also built and that took a fair few TTL devices just to flash
some lights.

<snip bizarre conspiracy shit>

>>> to I don't know
>>> to properly lubricate bearings for a small 4 pole AC motor,
>>
>> Sorry, I must have missed the bit where your mentor told you about
>> heating the sintered bearings to re-lubricated them? Or maybe you just
>> forgot to mention that bit?
>
> I didn't mention that because those are not the kind of bearings you're
> supposed to be applying heat to in order to apply more oil to them.

What type are they then?

> You're
> confusing the bearings in that 4 pole motor

It doesn't matter how many poles it's got, it's the sort of bearing that
would typically be found in a fan heater or wall fan.

Are you saying that fan heater doesn't have sintered phosphor bronze
bearings then?

> for a larger one which may/may
> not require heat to re apply oil to them. It really depends on the specific
> type of bearings used. And I suspect you are well aware of that.

Quite, or I wouldn't have mentioned it.

It was a genuine question about the longevity of re-oiling that sort of
bearing that way. You were the one 'pushing' your solution as being the
one you were mentored to do, I questioned your mentor.

>
>>> to I must have
>>> disabled the thermal safeties on my fucking heater and AC unit.
>>
>> Nope, once again that's all down to you.
>
> Yep, again, that's what you assumed i'd done and you proceeded to roll with
> that.

I didn't *assume* anything of the sort, I asked you to confirm if you
had as you made some noises suggested that you might have. I cba to go
back over it line by line, I know what I said and meant, you obviously
decided to take it the wrong way for some reason?

> Do I really need to supply another MID? I can, if you want.

You can do what you like, it won't make any difference re the spirit and
intention of my post.

>
>> Quite, seriously! After all the positive conversations we have had, you
>> think I would suddenly ... out of the blue start attacking you as you
>> obviously seem to think I have done?
>
> I know you've expressed assumptions you have concerning what you think I
> can/can't do or what I know or don't know how to do.

I have questioned.

> FFS, you're still
> trying to come at me about the bearings I oiled.

Because I suspect you didn't oil them properly, as indicated by the lack
of conviction on your reply.

> Wrong type of bearings to
> be applying heat for re-oiling purposes though,

We haven't proved that yet have we?

> but, hey, a bearing is a
> bearing right?

Far from it.

> heh. Let's take a fucking torch to that tiny ass motors
> bearings then. Jesus, uhh, no, we won't be doing that.

Grow up.

<snip more shite>

>> So, yes, I did ask you if you hearing the bearing (in oil) like your
>> bearing mentor would have undoubtably told you and I ONLY asked that out
>> of general interest to learn if you really did service the bearing with
>> longevity in mind.
>
> My mentor as you put it would have asked me what the fuck I thought I was
> doing the moment he caught me applying heat to that particular bearing.

See, you still don't understand the process do you. Go away and have
another Google and see if you can come up with the right process.

> And
> I don't doubt he might have punched me when I told him I was heating it to
> re-oil it.

Still don't get it ...

> Not installing a new one, not trying to remove that one from the
> shaft, No, I'm using heat to re-oil it; yea he would have decked me for
> doing something I know better than to be doing.

Still don't get it but keep digging ...

> I've applied heat to
> bearings to seat them on a shaft, and I can't remember the last time I used
> heat to re-oil a bearing already on a shaft.

T
hen there is a good chance you have NEVER properly re-oiled a sintered
bearing then.

> I think one of us is confused
> as to when you use heat with bearings?

On the grounds you keep stating 'heat with bearings' you continue to
prove it's you.

>
> <https://www.acorn-ind.co.uk/insight/how-to-know-when-you-should-use-a-bearin
> g-heater/>
>
> <https://www.bdsbearing.com/blog/bearing-lubrication#ch2>
>
> I don't see anything in either of those urls suggesting you use heat to
> re-oil the kind of bearing used on that little motor in my heater.

So? (links unclicked)

> I do see
> various methods discussed concerning oiling them, but one thing you don't
> see suggested is to apply heat while you're oiling one!

Woosh ...

> Am I just missing
> something, Tim?

Erm, 'yes'. (And the point).

> I'm always interested in learning new things,

It doesn't look like it so far.

> so feel free
> to educate me

I tried, you didn't want to even consider there may be a more formal way
way.

> with when I should be using heat to re-oil a bearing that's
> already on a shaft

It isn't 'on a shaft', it's in the mounting, You have already proven the
shaft can float freely in the bearings.

>and pressed in

Pressed into the bearing mount at most. Often just sandwiched or sprung
loaded into the mountings (because they are often self centring).

> that I don't want to replace,

No need, unless very worn.

> just re-oil.

Yup, something that can be done properly, if you know how.

> Go ahead, teach me. I'm all ears.

Doesn't seem like it so far!

>
>> It's no skin off my arse if you didn't, I care less if your fan heater
>> seizes up tomorrow or never, I was just asking ...
>
> No worries, it's oiled and running just as fast as it was last year when I
> serviced it.

Yes, you said and that's good.

> It has no issues.

Yet.

> You do not apply heat to re-oil those
> particular bearings.

You don't know that.
>
<snip crazy shite>

No, you have a little Google and see if you can learn how you can
lubricate and re-lubricate sintered / Oilite bearings yourself. Or
contact your bearing guru. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 01/02/2024 22:44, Gremlin wrote:

<snip>

> Which is why I wrote it's a buzzword, snit. C'mon man. There's nothing
> really smart about this. That would be like saying one of my RC heli's is
> 'smart' because it can report it's status to me while i'm flying it with
> it's remote controller. Is it a smart RC heli now because it reports
> battery health, main rotor and tail rotor rpms, and it's
> location/direction of travel back to the controller so I can see what's
> going on? That is not what I consider smart. There's nothing intelligent
> going on, no decisions being made by the RC, it's just reporting data and
> taking instructions from my remote.
>

No, that's just a remote controlled helicopter.

However, if it has a gyro that autonomously modifies the flight
characteristics to make it more stable, then it could be considered
smart. If it had a GPS and could have 'Return to home' set, then it's
even smarter.

It doesn't have to do calculus to be smart, it just needs the ability to
automate some function(s).

A smart house isn't called such because it's AI, it's just because it
can go more on it's own than a house with manual switches and remotes.

If you rummage though your bits box and cobble together a LDR, some
transistors, resisters, triac and lamp so that it comes on
*automatically* when it's dark, then you have made that lamp 'smart'
(even though it still can't enumerate Pi). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Snit]

On Feb 1, 2024 at 3:44:54 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB10BB4...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:OhfuN.65990$IfLe....@fx36.iad Tue,
> 30 Jan 2024 23:06:22 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 30, 2024 at 2:47:43â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB109AA...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up8oed$i5us$2...@dont-email.me Mon, 29
>>> Jan 2024 17:49:01 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 29/01/2024 15:17, Gremlin wrote:
>>>> I take a perfectly good de-humidifier and make it 'smart' *without*
>>>> having to open it up. I can turn it on and off by time and humidity
>>>> and have it notify me when the collection tank is full. I can monitor
>>>> and log it's running and therefore monitor and determine it's running
>>>> costs.
>>>
>>> And that functionality makes the device 'smart' to you? That's all it
>>> takes to qualify?
>>
>> Aren't such devices usually deemed "smart" devices?
>
> Which is why I wrote it's a buzzword, snit.

But then you questioned the use... as if that is not how it is commonly used.

> C'mon man. There's nothing
> really smart about this. That would be like saying one of my RC heli's is
> 'smart' because it can report it's status to me while i'm flying it with
> it's remote controller. Is it a smart RC heli now because it reports
> battery health, main rotor and tail rotor rpms, and it's
> location/direction of travel back to the controller so I can see what's
> going on? That is not what I consider smart. There's nothing intelligent
> going on, no decisions being made by the RC, it's just reporting data and
> taking instructions from my remote.

Is it sold as a "smart" remote helicopter?

[Snit]

On Feb 1, 2024 at 1:50:40 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB10BA1...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
> news:updpdj$1j19s$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Wed, 31 Jan 2024
> 15:36:19 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-30, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>
>>> I understand. I'm starting to pay closer attention to a red flag or two
>>> that I had been ignoring previously. For a second, I actually
>>> considered the possibility this is another snit sock; but, they're able
>>> to parse information from the other thread so...it's not snit. :)
>>
>> LOL! Tim has knowledge that Glasser would never spend time accruing.
>
> True. I don't understand why Tim seems to have the attitude he's recently
> taken towards me regarding HA and ESP...Jumped off the fucking tracks with
> assumptions ranging from I can't duplicate the damn thing, to I don't know
> to properly lubricate bearings for a small 4 pole AC motor, to I must have
> disabled the thermal safeties on my fucking heater and AC unit. FFS. I
> realize he doesn't know me from susan or adam, but, seriously? the
> assumptions? Can he not just read some of the posts I've written about
> various things, instead, of assuming I'm a fucking idiot,

You think he believes you are a "fucking idiot" based on what you have written
to him so you want him to read other stuff to form a different opinion?

> or that I have the
> learning disabilities that he claims to have? Maybe review a few of my
> tiktok videos to get some idea that I might have some knowledge, atleast, of
> electronics?

You want him to not just judge you on how you interact with him but do
research? That seems absurd to me.

I do want to be clear: I have NOT been following your discussion with him and
have no clue what his assessment of you is or should be. Just going off what
you are saying. You do have a habit of presenting yourself as the term you
love to much: functionally illiterate fraud.

> and programming? oh, and electrical.. uhh, you know, the shit
> I've *always said* and never altered stories about that I do..?
>
> FFS, I have a video that shows people the main source code to the ORIGINAL
> IROK virus. v1. fucking 0 at that on my tiktok page as a social experiment
> for over a year now.
>
> Writing a computer virus/worm in ASIC (Yes, IROK is both!)
>
> <https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8WmBL35/>
>
> Do you know how many people have commented about what ASIC reminds them of,
> instead of what i'm actually showing them? :) Yea, checkout the comments;
> it's hillarious. If anyone did figure it out, they aren't saying in the
> comments. :) It's not something you can find anywhere online, because I
> never shared it previously. It wasn't given to me, I have it because *I*
> wrote the fucking thing, and the ones that followed.
>
>
>

How much time do you spend trying to convince people you are not as stupid as
they seem to think you present yourself?

[Gremlin]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:uph9k9$298or$1...@dont-email.me Thu, 01 Feb
2024 23:31:19 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 01/02/2024 22:44, Gremlin wrote:

> Not don't like, just surprised at your reaction, considering.
>>
>>>> with
>>>> assumptions ranging from I can't duplicate the damn thing,
>>>
>>> You just made that up. Try and find *anything* where I suggested that.
>>
>> Hmm. Okay.
>> MID: <up4ver$3qe2g$1...@dont-email.me>
>> <http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=170682533400>
>>
>> I wrote:
>>> I hate the idea of wasting one of these micro controllers for
>>> something I can whip up using old school electronic components,
>>> though.
>>
>> And your response to that was this:
>>
>> Except you can't do that can you ... you can't centrally automate,
>> control and otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can
>> knock up? That would be like saying you can build a push cart so why
>> build a kitcar. ;-)
>>
>> ***
>>
>> So, would you like to explain how I misunderstood you, or, as you just
>> put it, "You just made that up";
>
> Because it's true, you can't 'you can't centrally automate, control and
> otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can knock up. I'm
> not saying *you* can't do that, I'm saying it's not realistic to do.

I see. There's a difference between what you've written here and what you
originally wrote. I don't see how you expected me to know you weren't
writing about me specifically, but the realistic aspect of doing it, going
by what you originally wrote and haven't clarified until now. As I told you
before though, for me, I learn more from the journey then I do simply
getting to the destination. SC asked you why I couldn't do it as well, if I
had the components and I didn't see a response from you to him...So...

> I designed and built a multi-program 8 channel light sequencer for the
> disco I also built and that took a fair few TTL devices just to flash
> some lights.

Kewl.

>> You're
>> confusing the bearings in that 4 pole motor
>
> It doesn't matter how many poles it's got, it's the sort of bearing that
> would typically be found in a fan heater or wall fan.

Tim, how many electrical AC/DC single phase, or 3phase, motors have you
personally rebuilt? And by rebuilt, I mean, taking the rotor out, stripping
it down; using a big oven to cook the insulation completely out of it,
replacing the bearings, redoing the windings *exactly* as you originally
found them, and repairing the stator section where necessary due to coil
failure and short circuit conditions inside the motor, the wire gauge, etc,
A few, a few hundred? A thousand of them? Specifically, how much hands on
experience do you have doing it?

> It was a genuine question about the longevity of re-oiling that sort of
> bearing that way. You were the one 'pushing' your solution as being the
> one you were mentored to do, I questioned your mentor.

I wasn't pushing anything. Sorry you got that impression. I don't mind you
questioning my mentor or my training. My issue is your assumptions. it
annoys me because I see how much you struggle with simple as fuck
configuration shit Apd has sometime with you now on. By now, you should be
able to do it entirely on your own. Why can't you?

> You can do what you like, it won't make any difference re the spirit and
> intention of my post.

Sorry but the spirit of your post isn't always conveyed. This is a text
based medium. I can only read what I see on the damn screen, bro.

>> I know you've expressed assumptions you have concerning what you think
>> I can/can't do or what I know or don't know how to do.
>
> I have questioned.

I'm fine with that.

>> FFS, you're still
>> trying to come at me about the bearings I oiled.
>
> Because I suspect you didn't oil them properly, as indicated by the lack
> of conviction on your reply.

Well, to each their own then, eh?

>> Wrong type of bearings to
>> be applying heat for re-oiling purposes though,
>
> We haven't proved that yet have we?

Since you don't want to click on links I share about this, I can't prove it.
:)

>> heh. Let's take a fucking torch to that tiny ass motors
>> bearings then. Jesus, uhh, no, we won't be doing that.
>
> Grow up.

You should take your own advice.

>> My mentor as you put it would have asked me what the fuck I thought I
>> was doing the moment he caught me applying heat to that particular
>> bearing.
>
> See, you still don't understand the process do you. Go away and have
> another Google and see if you can come up with the right process.

Actually, I do. I didn't share the urls for my benefit.

>> <https://www.acorn-ind.co.uk/insight/how-to-know-when-you-should-use-a-b

>> earin g-heater/>
>>
>> <https://www.bdsbearing.com/blog/bearing-lubrication#ch2>
>>
>> I don't see anything in either of those urls suggesting you use heat to
>> re-oil the kind of bearing used on that little motor in my heater.
>
> So? (links unclicked)

Awe. it's okay, I understand your desire not to click them. They don't
support the bullshit you're writing.

>> I do see
>> various methods discussed concerning oiling them, but one thing you
>> don't see suggested is to apply heat while you're oiling one!
>
> Woosh ...

Says the guy who needs coddling to get ESP working with HA as he likes.
fucking crayon level coddling at that.

>> I'm always interested in learning new things,
>
> It doesn't look like it so far.

So, why not offer to share some links to educate me then, rather than a
snarky response trying to be a wiseass and talk down to me? FFS dude, you
can't even figure out a fucking configuration file without extensive hand
holding help. How the fuck you can build controllers, etc, with electronic
components but you can't wrap your head how configuration/scripts work isn't
known to me, but here you are...

And you still think it's okay to be a total wiseass towards me. So fucking
funny dude. I've taken more impressive shits than you.

>> so feel free
>> to educate me
>
> I tried, you didn't want to even consider there may be a more formal way
> way.

And the more formal way would be?

>> It has no issues.
>
> Yet.

When should I expect issues? When it reaches the 1,000 hour runtime? Or
annually? As that's the general time frame when you should be reoiling them.
And if I'm not mistaken, you didn't know about the 1,000 hours maintainance
routine. So...Unless I misunderstood you?

>> You do not apply heat to re-oil those
>> particular bearings.
>
> You don't know that.

if you'd have clicked on the UK url I shared with you, you would have known
what I wrote is true.

> No, you have a little Google and see if you can learn how you can
> lubricate and re-lubricate sintered / Oilite bearings yourself. Or
> contact your bearing guru. ;-)

Awe, smart ass, I didn't use google for my benefit. I provided those links
for your benefit. I'm not the one who's come here and required extensive
hand holding to figure out TEXT BASED configuration files. Maybe you should
have a little google on how to do that on your own? Cause you sure as fuck
don't know what you're doing. If you did, Apd and SC wouldn't have had to
basically do the configuration for you. You're lucky they even have an
interest in it. If I was helping you with it, I wouldn't continue doing so.
At some point, little man, you've gotta be able to do it for yourself. I
don't mind teaching you how to fish, but I won't do all the fishing for you.

[Gremlin]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:upha2o$298or$2...@dont-email.me Thu, 01 Feb

2024 23:39:04 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 01/02/2024 22:44, Gremlin wrote:
>
> <snip>
>

> No, that's just a remote controlled helicopter.

Ayep.

> However, if it has a gyro that autonomously modifies the flight
> characteristics to make it more stable, then it could be considered
> smart. If it had a GPS and could have 'Return to home' set, then it's
> even smarter.

Almost all of the ones I have do have gyro for flight stability. A few are
dual rotor blades too. None of them will return home by a button press
though; they do not have those capabilities. I still wouldn't call the gyro
function 'smart' though because I know how it works. I guess we can agree to
disagree on that?

> A smart house isn't called such because it's AI, it's just because it
> can go more on it's own than a house with manual switches and remotes.

Yes, but, I can replace the standard switches with motion detection ones and
still not really have a 'smart' house; the devices don't talk to one another
and they cannot be controlled from a central location. Other switch gear
can, if you're willing to spend the additional funds, of course. Smart
really is more of a buzzword intended for consumers.

> If you rummage though your bits box and cobble together a LDR, some
> transistors, resisters, triac and lamp so that it comes on
> *automatically* when it's dark, then you have made that lamp 'smart'
> (even though it still can't enumerate Pi). ;-)

I think I'd include an opamp to be used as a comparator. So that when the
light level is low enough, I have full power on the base or gate pin (gate
if I'm using a fet) vs ramping upto full power based on the resistance from
the LDR; I don't know if you realize this or not, but if you don't apply
proper base(or gate) voltage for such a circuit, you can cause the
transistors to not function as expected. This video demonstrates that
effect:

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8Wx4KX7/

You can see my photocell, a transistor, and a couple of resistors to the
left, and a 3 channel circuit towards the right that is turned on or off via
the transistor tied into the LDR. If the light level isn't right, my circuit
as you see, hangs; all three lights on, but dim, not flashing, not chasing.
Hung circuit.

if I use an opamp with the circuit, I can be absolutely sure full power is
applied to the base pin of my 'on/off' switch transistor so that hang you
see, never happens because there's no chance too little voltage will be
applied to the base pin of my control transistor which will hang the circuit
it's powering due to insufficient power being passed thru. Which also risks
burning out my little switch transistor because I'm not getting anywhere
near saturation but i'm trying to pull a load from it.

As for the triac, sure, if i'm going to be powering the lamp with AC,
otherwise, no need for a triac. Mostly because I really like mosfets and
igbts, I'd probably design my circuit to run a lamp off DC power.

[Gremlin]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:upha2o$298or$2...@dont-email.me Thu, 01 Feb
2024 23:39:04 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 01/02/2024 22:44, Gremlin wrote:
>
> <snip>
>

> No, that's just a remote controlled helicopter.

Ayep.

> However, if it has a gyro that autonomously modifies the flight
> characteristics to make it more stable, then it could be considered
> smart. If it had a GPS and could have 'Return to home' set, then it's
> even smarter.

Almost all of the ones I have do have gyro for flight stability. A few are
dual rotor blades too. None of them will return home by a button press
though; they do not have those capabilities. I still wouldn't call the gyro
function 'smart' though because I know how it works. I guess we can agree to
disagree on that?

> A smart house isn't called such because it's AI, it's just because it
> can go more on it's own than a house with manual switches and remotes.

Yes, but, I can replace the standard switches with motion detection ones and
still not really have a 'smart' house; the devices don't talk to one another
and they cannot be controlled from a central location. Other switch gear
can, if you're willing to spend the additional funds, of course. Smart
really is more of a buzzword intended for consumers.

> If you rummage though your bits box and cobble together a LDR, some
> transistors, resisters, triac and lamp so that it comes on
> *automatically* when it's dark, then you have made that lamp 'smart'
> (even though it still can't enumerate Pi). ;-)

I think I'd include an opamp to be used as a comparator. So that when the
light level is low enough, I have full power on the base or gate pin (gate
if I'm using a fet) vs ramping upto full power based on the resistance from
the LDR; I don't know if you realize this or not, but if you don't apply
proper base(or gate) voltage for such a circuit, you can cause the
transistors to not function as expected. This video demonstrates that
effect:

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8Wx4KX7/

You can see my photocell, a transistor, and a couple of resistors to the
left, and a 3 channel circuit towards the right that is turned on or off via
the transistor tied into the LDR. If the light level isn't right, my circuit
as you see, hangs; all three lights on, but dim, not flashing, not chasing.

Hung circuit. That 3 channel circuit isn't a true 3 channel independent one
though. It doesn't chase quite like this one (which is a true 3 channel),
done the old school way. It's expandable to as many channels as you want to
run though. They both are, but one actually single light at a time chases,
and the other doesn't quite do that.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8WxUnB9/

if I use an opamp with the circuit, I can be absolutely sure full power is
applied to the base pin of my 'on/off' switch transistor so that hang you
see, never happens because there's no chance too little voltage will be
applied to the base pin of my control transistor which will hang the circuit
it's powering due to insufficient power being passed thru. Which also risks
burning out my little switch transistor because I'm not getting anywhere
near saturation but i'm trying to pull a load from it.

As for the triac, sure, if i'm going to be powering the lamp with AC,
otherwise, no need for a triac. Mostly because I really like mosfets and
igbts, I'd probably design my circuit to run a lamp off DC power.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:iDWuN.275168$Wp_8....@fx17.iad

Fri, 02 Feb 2024 00:24:46 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Feb 1, 2024 at 3:44:54 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB10BB4...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:OhfuN.65990$IfLe....@fx36.iad
>> Tue, 30 Jan 2024 23:06:22 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>
>>> On Jan 30, 2024 at 2:47:43â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
>>> <XnsB109AA...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>
>>>> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up8oed$i5us$2...@dont-email.me Mon, 29
>>>> Jan 2024 17:49:01 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 29/01/2024 15:17, Gremlin wrote:
>>>>> I take a perfectly good de-humidifier and make it 'smart' *without*
>>>>> having to open it up. I can turn it on and off by time and humidity
>>>>> and have it notify me when the collection tank is full. I can
>>>>> monitor and log it's running and therefore monitor and determine
>>>>> it's running costs.
>>>>
>>>> And that functionality makes the device 'smart' to you? That's all it
>>>> takes to qualify?
>>>
>>> Aren't such devices usually deemed "smart" devices?
>>
>> Which is why I wrote it's a buzzword, snit.
>
> But then you questioned the use... as if that is not how it is commonly
> used.

No, I wasn't questioning it. Wasn't even trying to argue against the common
usage. Only stating my opinion of it; that it's nothing more than a buzzword.

>> C'mon man. There's nothing
>> really smart about this. That would be like saying one of my RC heli's
>> is 'smart' because it can report it's status to me while i'm flying it
>> with it's remote controller. Is it a smart RC heli now because it
>> reports battery health, main rotor and tail rotor rpms, and it's
>> location/direction of travel back to the controller so I can see what's
>> going on? That is not what I consider smart. There's nothing
>> intelligent going on, no decisions being made by the RC, it's just
>> reporting data and taking instructions from my remote.
>
> Is it sold as a "smart" remote helicopter?
>

Nope, none of them were sold as smart. I admit it, I have a little
addiction. I really like RC's. Especially ones that can fly. HMMM..Maybe
someone might want to see my little heli collection? I have itty bitty ones
and slightly larger ones. I'm also uhh, a "collector" of components? ehm.
yea, it's pretty bad. As in, if I need a few fets or something, I might uhh,
order umm, lots more. Not so much for the price break, but so I have them
for other things I might need them for, project or customer repair job wise.
And when I find a series of one I really like the specs of, I get kinda
crazy with the ordering sometimes. For example, I think I have around close
to a thousand or so NE555 ICs alone...And around 700 or so of them are
actual Texas Instruments versions. No, I probably won't use that many in my
entire life; but I really do like that particular little shit, and there's
all kinds of things you can do with them. And I wanted to make sure, just in
case, I'd have plenty on hand. just in case being a big issue in the supply
chain again.

[T i m]

On 02/02/2024 01:35, Gremlin wrote:

<snip>

>> Because it's true, you can't 'you can't centrally automate, control and
>> otherwise manage those things with just some bits you can knock up. I'm
>> not saying *you* can't do that, I'm saying it's not realistic to do.
>
> I see.

Phew. ;-)

> There's a difference between what you've written here and what you
> originally wrote.

Only because I've tried to explain it more to try to stop you picking up
the wrong end of the stick.

> I don't see how you expected me to know you weren't
> writing about me specifically,

Even if I was, why would you get so irate if you know different?

> but the realistic aspect of doing it, going
> by what you originally wrote and haven't clarified until now.

It's all about 'getting' the spirit of someone and gauging the
interaction they have?

> As I told you
> before though, for me, I learn more from the journey then I do simply
> getting to the destination.

And that's fine. I have been learning HA though a journey lasting ~4
years now.

> SC asked you why I couldn't do it as well, if I
> had the components and I didn't see a response from you to him...So...
>
>
>> I designed and built a multi-program 8 channel light sequencer for the
>> disco I also built and that took a fair few TTL devices just to flash
>> some lights.
>
> Kewl.

Yeah, it had 4 modes and it could step between them, all timed with
556's. OPto-isolated outputs with zero-crossing switching.

When I was going for a new job as Electronics Field Service Tech my
soon-to-be boss asked me if I can bring something along to the interview
that I had made. I removed the screws that held the lid on and took that
sequencer. After the interview he asked to see it and also explain what
each bit did (someone else could have designed / made it etc). He seemed
impressed. ;-)

>
>>> You're
>>> confusing the bearings in that 4 pole motor
>>
>> It doesn't matter how many poles it's got, it's the sort of bearing that
>> would typically be found in a fan heater or wall fan.
>
> Tim, how many electrical AC/DC single phase, or 3phase, motors have you
> personally rebuilt?

It's gotta be in the 10's, the last being the drive motor from our
tumble dryer where the bearing failed and before that, the motor on the
pillar drill I was rebuilding.

> And by rebuilt, I mean, taking the rotor out, stripping
> it down; using a big oven to cook the insulation completely out of it,
> replacing the bearings, redoing the windings *exactly* as you originally
> found them, and repairing the stator section where necessary due to coil
> failure and short circuit conditions inside the motor, the wire gauge, etc,

To that level, none, but the only bit we are talking about is how you
should re-lubricate sintered bearings?

Re-wind a small motor yes, stripped down / rebuilt completely yes,
repaired centrifugal start switches yes ...

> A few, a few hundred? A thousand of them? Specifically, how much hands on
> experience do you have doing it?

'Enough' to know how to properly re-oil sintered bearings.

>
>> It was a genuine question about the longevity of re-oiling that sort of
>> bearing that way. You were the one 'pushing' your solution as being the
>> one you were mentored to do, I questioned your mentor.
>
> I wasn't pushing anything. Sorry you got that impression.

OK.

> I don't mind you
> questioning my mentor or my training.

It didn't seem that way!

> My issue is your assumptions. it
> annoys me because I see how much you struggle with simple as fuck
> configuration shit

LOL, yeah, give it a go mate and see how you get on. If someone as
obviously skilled as Apd sometimes has to have a couple of goes at stuff
... ;-)

> Apd has sometime with you now on. By now, you should be
> able to do it entirely on your own. Why can't you?

Ah, yes, you have seen someone do brain surgery so you you can just pick
up the tools right?

But why are you picking holes in what I can't do rather than answering
my question re re-oiling sintered bearings?

>

>> You can do what you like, it won't make any difference re the spirit and
>> intention of my post.
>
> Sorry but the spirit of your post isn't always conveyed.

Understood. Still, you could have just asked re my intentions couldn't you?

> This is a text
> based medium. I can only read what I see on the damn screen, bro.

I know, but you don't *have* to pick up the shitty end of the stick, if
something could be taken two ways.

>
>>> I know you've expressed assumptions you have concerning what you think
>>> I can/can't do or what I know or don't know how to do.
>>
>> I have questioned.
>
> I'm fine with that.

Not then you didn't seem to be.

>
>>> FFS, you're still
>>> trying to come at me about the bearings I oiled.
>>
>> Because I suspect you didn't oil them properly, as indicated by the lack
>> of conviction on your reply.
>
> Well, to each their own then, eh?

Sure, and it doesn't actually matter to either of us if you did or
didn't eh? ;-)

>
>>> Wrong type of bearings to
>>> be applying heat for re-oiling purposes though,
>>
>> We haven't proved that yet have we?
>
> Since you don't want to click on links I share about this, I can't prove it.
> :)

;-)

>
>>> heh. Let's take a fucking torch to that tiny ass motors
>>> bearings then. Jesus, uhh, no, we won't be doing that.
>>
>> Grow up.
>
> You should take your own advice.

I'm not sure I have a dummy to throw out of the pram. ;-)

>
>>> My mentor as you put it would have asked me what the fuck I thought I
>>> was doing the moment he caught me applying heat to that particular
>>> bearing.
>>
>> See, you still don't understand the process do you. Go away and have
>> another Google and see if you can come up with the right process.
>
> Actually, I do. I didn't share the urls for my benefit.

Then you wouldn't still be arguing with me, you would be saying 'Ah,
yeah, I see what you mean, yes I could have done that but I couldn't be
bothered for this cheapo fan heater ...'

You already had it to bits, you already had the fan off, you already had
the motor los ...

>
>>> <https://www.acorn-ind.co.uk/insight/how-to-know-when-you-should-use-a-b
>>> earin g-heater/>
>>>
>>> <https://www.bdsbearing.com/blog/bearing-lubrication#ch2>
>>>
>>> I don't see anything in either of those urls suggesting you use heat to
>>> re-oil the kind of bearing used on that little motor in my heater.
>>
>> So? (links unclicked)
>
> Awe. it's okay, I understand your desire not to click them. They don't
> support the bullshit you're writing.

Do either explain how to re-lubricate sintered bearings?

Does it go on about a blowtorch and 'heating the bearings'?

>
>>> I do see
>>> various methods discussed concerning oiling them, but one thing you
>>> don't see suggested is to apply heat while you're oiling one!
>>
>> Woosh ...
>
> Says the guy who needs coddling to get ESP working with HA as he likes.

But this isn't about me is it, it's about you not knowing how to re-oil
a sintered bearing?

> fucking crayon level coddling at that.

I'm sure Apd would be impressed with that comparison.

>
>>> I'm always interested in learning new things,
>>
>> It doesn't look like it so far.
>
> So, why not offer to share some links to educate me then, rather than a
> snarky response trying to be a wiseass and talk down to me?

Because of YOUR reaction so far.

<snip irrelevant ranting>

>
> And you still think it's okay to be a total wiseass towards me.

You are still crying because YOU threw YOUR dummy out of the pram.

> So fucking
> funny dude. I've taken more impressive shits than you.

And on with the missing dummy reactions ...

>
>
>>> so feel free
>>> to educate me
>>
>> I tried, you didn't want to even consider there may be a more formal way
>> way.
>
> And the more formal way would be?

You don't need me to tell you, you know all about motors, you told us.

>
>>> It has no issues.
>>
>> Yet.
>
> When should I expect issues?

When the lithium grease applied to the surface of the bearing wears /
drys out.

> When it reaches the 1,000 hour runtime?

See above.

> Or
> annually?

See above.

> As that's the general time frame when you should be reoiling them.

BS.

> And if I'm not mistaken, you didn't know about the 1,000 hours maintainance
> routine.

I can't know about what doesn't exist (in the sort of appliances you
were talking about at the time).

> So...Unless I misunderstood you?

No, that time you actually understood me.

>
>>> You do not apply heat to re-oil those
>>> particular bearings.
>>
>> You don't know that.
>
> if you'd have clicked on the UK url I shared with you, you would have known
> what I wrote is true.

It isn't.

>
>> No, you have a little Google and see if you can learn how you can
>> lubricate and re-lubricate sintered / Oilite bearings yourself. Or
>> contact your bearing guru. ;-)
>
> Awe, smart ass, I didn't use google for my benefit.

Well you certainly didn't use it in this case and for mine as I already
know how to correctly re-oil sintered bearings. ;-)

> I provided those links
> for your benefit.

Thanks, but why would I need them?

<snip more irrelevant ranting from someone who sure is hurting because
they don't happen to know it all>

I came here *ASKING* for advice for coding, suggesting the the hard of
thinking that I didn't know about coding (I said as much).

You came here telling us you know all about small ac motors and how to
maintain them properly (with all yer Yoda bs) but don't seem to know.

So you come back and write with your own words what way I am suggesting
you could have lubricated those bearings (*should have* IF you wanted to
do it properly) and we can take it from there.


Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 02/02/2024 01:35, Gremlin wrote:

> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:upha2o$298or$2...@dont-email.me Thu, 01 Feb
> 2024 23:39:04 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 01/02/2024 22:44, Gremlin wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> No, that's just a remote controlled helicopter.
>
> Ayep.
>
>> However, if it has a gyro that autonomously modifies the flight
>> characteristics to make it more stable, then it could be considered
>> smart. If it had a GPS and could have 'Return to home' set, then it's
>> even smarter.
>
> Almost all of the ones I have do have gyro for flight stability. A few are
> dual rotor blades too. None of them will return home by a button press
> though; they do not have those capabilities. I still wouldn't call the gyro
> function 'smart' though

As soon as something provides some level of autonomy, 'most people'
would consider it 'smart'.

> because I know how it works.

What difference does that make?

> I guess we can agree to
> disagree on that?

I guess we will have to. ;-)

>
>> A smart house isn't called such because it's AI, it's just because it
>> can go more on it's own than a house with manual switches and remotes.
>
> Yes, but, I can replace the standard switches with motion detection ones and
> still not really have a 'smart' house;

No, because it will only have smart lights. The lighting part would be
smart (at a very low level), not the house.

> the devices don't talk to one another
> and they cannot be controlled from a central location.

I think he's got it! ;-)

> Other switch gear
> can, if you're willing to spend the additional funds, of course.

Of course, or you could make it all yourself from your bits box. ;-)

> Smart
> really is more of a buzzword intended for consumers.

And those who understand the meaning and so use it?

>
>> If you rummage though your bits box and cobble together a LDR, some
>> transistors, resisters, triac and lamp so that it comes on
>> *automatically* when it's dark, then you have made that lamp 'smart'
>> (even though it still can't enumerate Pi). ;-)
>
> I think I'd include an opamp to be used as a comparator. So that when the
> light level is low enough, I have full power on the base or gate pin (gate
> if I'm using a fet) vs ramping upto full power based on the resistance from
> the LDR;

Sure. That wasn't supposed to be the full component list or schematic. ;-)

> I don't know if you realize this or not, but if you don't apply
> proper base(or gate) voltage for such a circuit, you can cause the
> transistors to not function as expected. This video demonstrates that
> effect:
>
> https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8Wx4KX7/
>
> You can see my photocell, a transistor, and a couple of resistors to the
> left, and a 3 channel circuit towards the right that is turned on or off via
> the transistor tied into the LDR. If the light level isn't right, my circuit
> as you see, hangs; all three lights on, but dim, not flashing, not chasing.
> Hung circuit.

I might have a look later but yes, I know circuits need to be designed
properly.

>
> if I use an opamp with the circuit, I can be absolutely sure full power is
> applied to the base pin of my 'on/off' switch transistor so that hang you
> see, never happens because there's no chance too little voltage will be
> applied to the base pin of my control transistor which will hang the circuit
> it's powering due to insufficient power being passed thru.

Or a sufficient number or high enough gain transistors to ensure full
switching (hence the op-amp).

> Which also risks
> burning out my little switch transistor because I'm not getting anywhere
> near saturation but i'm trying to pull a load from it.

See above.

Given the purpose of a light based light switch is binary, you don't
really want any switching device in a non binary state.

>
> As for the triac, sure, if i'm going to be powering the lamp with AC,
> otherwise, no need for a triac. Mostly because I really like mosfets and
> igbts, I'd probably design my circuit to run a lamp off DC power.
>

OK.

Cheers, T i m

[FromTheRafters]

T i m laid this down on his screen :

With these, 'smart' is more about the internet of things than any AI
involvment. If an otherwise simple switching device like a table lamp
is IoT network aware and actually using the network via BlueTooth or
Wi-Fi then it is considered a smart device.

[Snit]

On Feb 2, 2024 at 1:36:22 AM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB10C24...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:iDWuN.275168$Wp_8....@fx17.iad
> Fri, 02 Feb 2024 00:24:46 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On Feb 1, 2024 at 3:44:54 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
>> <XnsB10BB4...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:OhfuN.65990$IfLe....@fx36.iad
>>> Tue, 30 Jan 2024 23:06:22 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jan 30, 2024 at 2:47:43â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
>>>> <XnsB109AA...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>>
>>>>> T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:up8oed$i5us$2...@dont-email.me Mon, 29
>>>>> Jan 2024 17:49:01 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 29/01/2024 15:17, Gremlin wrote:
>>>>>> I take a perfectly good de-humidifier and make it 'smart' *without*
>>>>>> having to open it up. I can turn it on and off by time and humidity
>>>>>> and have it notify me when the collection tank is full. I can
>>>>>> monitor and log it's running and therefore monitor and determine
>>>>>> it's running costs.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that functionality makes the device 'smart' to you? That's all it
>>>>> takes to qualify?
>>>>
>>>> Aren't such devices usually deemed "smart" devices?
>>>
>>> Which is why I wrote it's a buzzword, snit.
>>
>> But then you questioned the use... as if that is not how it is commonly
>> used.
>
> No, I wasn't questioning it.

Your use of a question mark certainly made it seem like you were questioning.
What other use of that punctuation did you intend?

>
>>> C'mon man. There's nothing
>>> really smart about this. That would be like saying one of my RC heli's
>>> is 'smart' because it can report it's status to me while i'm flying it
>>> with it's remote controller. Is it a smart RC heli now because it
>>> reports battery health, main rotor and tail rotor rpms, and it's
>>> location/direction of travel back to the controller so I can see what's
>>> going on? That is not what I consider smart. There's nothing
>>> intelligent going on, no decisions being made by the RC, it's just
>>> reporting data and taking instructions from my remote.
>>
>> Is it sold as a "smart" remote helicopter?
>>
>
> Nope, none of them were sold as smart.

Not sure why you jumped to the idea it might be one.

> I admit it, I have a little addiction.

I am not surprised to hear this.

> I really like RC's. Especially ones that can fly. HMMM..Maybe
> someone might want to see my little heli collection?

Start a threat and show them off. Sure! I am not really into them, but would
be great to see you share a passion.

[T i m]

On 02/02/2024 10:13, FromTheRafters wrote:

<snip>

> With these, 'smart' is more about the internet of things than any AI
> involvment.

Certainly can be.

> If an otherwise simple switching device like a table lamp is
> IoT network aware and actually using the network via BlueTooth or Wi-Fi
> then it is considered a smart device.

Ironically, I can pull my router so NONE of my 'Smart Home' is connected
to the Internet and it all still works fine (and part of the point of
Home Assistant specifically etc). ;-)

I agree with your description in general but there is allowance for
things to be considered smart without the need for them to be connected
to any 'Smart' and especially IoT host.

Like, a dimmable smart lamp replaces the need for a dimmer switch so
that ability makes that lamp 'smart' over a dumb one. Pair a set of
smart lamps to a smart remote (that controls the lamps directly) and
they are now a smart lighting solution (in that looser use of the word).


Cheers, T i m

[FromTheRafters]

T i m brought next idea :

> On 02/02/2024 10:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> With these, 'smart' is more about the internet of things than any AI
>> involvment.
>
> Certainly can be.
>
>> If an otherwise simple switching device like a table lamp is IoT network
>> aware and actually using the network via BlueTooth or Wi-Fi then it is
>> considered a smart device.
>
> Ironically, I can pull my router so NONE of my 'Smart Home' is connected to
> the Internet and it all still works fine (and part of the point of Home
> Assistant specifically etc). ;-)

I wasn't specifically thinking of the internet when I said network.

> I agree with your description in general but there is allowance for things to
> be considered smart without the need for them to be connected to any 'Smart'
> and especially IoT host.
>
> Like, a dimmable smart lamp replaces the need for a dimmer switch so that
> ability makes that lamp 'smart' over a dumb one. Pair a set of smart lamps to
> a smart remote (that controls the lamps directly) and they are now a smart
> lighting solution (in that looser use of the word).

I disagree with that, but that is okay.

[T i m]

On 02/02/2024 18:45, FromTheRafters wrote:
> T i m brought next idea :
>> On 02/02/2024 10:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> With these, 'smart' is more about the internet of things than any AI
>>> involvment.
>>
>> Certainly can be.
>>
>>> If an otherwise simple switching device like a table lamp is IoT
>>> network aware and actually using the network via BlueTooth or Wi-Fi
>>> then it is considered a smart device.
>>
>> Ironically, I can pull my router so NONE of my 'Smart Home' is
>> connected to the Internet and it all still works fine (and part of the
>> point of Home Assistant specifically etc). ;-)
>
> I wasn't specifically thinking of the internet when I said network.

But you were when you mentioned Internet of Things.

>
>> I agree with your description in general but there is allowance for
>> things to be considered smart without the need for them to be
>> connected to any 'Smart' and especially IoT host.
>>
>> Like, a dimmable smart lamp replaces the need for a dimmer switch so
>> that ability makes that lamp 'smart' over a dumb one. Pair a set of
>> smart lamps to a smart remote (that controls the lamps directly) and
>> they are now a smart lighting solution (in that looser use of the word).
>
> I disagree with that, but that is okay.

It is indeed. It would be a strange world if we all agreed about
everything. ;-)

"A smart object is an object that enhances the interaction with not only
people but also with other smart objects. Also known as smart connected
products or smart connected things (SCoT), they are products, assets and
other things embedded with processors, sensors, software and
connectivity that allow data to be exchanged between the product and its
environment, manufacturer, operator/user, and other products and systems."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_object

That seems to describe a wireless remote controlling a group of lights
to me. The 'data' in that case is On/Off/Dim/Bright.

Cheers, T i m

[FromTheRafters]

T i m formulated on Friday :

> On 02/02/2024 18:45, FromTheRafters wrote:
>> T i m brought next idea :
>>> On 02/02/2024 10:13, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> With these, 'smart' is more about the internet of things than any AI
>>>> involvment.
>>>
>>> Certainly can be.
>>>
>>>> If an otherwise simple switching device like a table lamp is IoT network
>>>> aware and actually using the network via BlueTooth or Wi-Fi then it is
>>>> considered a smart device.
>>>
>>> Ironically, I can pull my router so NONE of my 'Smart Home' is connected
>>> to the Internet and it all still works fine (and part of the point of Home
>>> Assistant specifically etc). ;-)
>>
>> I wasn't specifically thinking of the internet when I said network.
>
> But you were when you mentioned Internet of Things.

No, I wasn't.

>>> I agree with your description in general but there is allowance for things
>>> to be considered smart without the need for them to be connected to any
>>> 'Smart' and especially IoT host.
>>>
>>> Like, a dimmable smart lamp replaces the need for a dimmer switch so that
>>> ability makes that lamp 'smart' over a dumb one. Pair a set of smart lamps
>>> to a smart remote (that controls the lamps directly) and they are now a
>>> smart lighting solution (in that looser use of the word).
>>
>> I disagree with that, but that is okay.
>
> It is indeed. It would be a strange world if we all agreed about everything.
> ;-)
>
> "A smart object is an object that enhances the interaction with not only
> people but also with other smart objects. Also known as smart connected
> products or smart connected things (SCoT), they are products, assets and
> other things embedded with processors, sensors, software and connectivity
> that allow data to be exchanged between the product and its environment,
> manufacturer, operator/user, and other products and systems."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_object
>
> That seems to describe a wireless remote controlling a group of lights to me.
> The 'data' in that case is On/Off/Dim/Bright.

IMO it lacks the 'connectivity' feature.

[T i m]

On 02/02/2024 19:39, FromTheRafters wrote:
>>>
>>> I wasn't specifically thinking of the internet when I said network.
>>
>> But you were when you mentioned Internet of Things.
>
> No, I wasn't.

No, maybe you weren't actually but you were technically when you
included it.
>

<snip>

>> "A smart object is an object that enhances the interaction with not
>> only people but also with other smart objects. Also known as smart
>> connected products or smart connected things (SCoT), they are
>> products, assets and other things embedded with processors, sensors,
>> software and connectivity that allow data to be exchanged between the
>> product and its environment, manufacturer, operator/user, and other
>> products and systems."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_object
>>
>> That seems to describe a wireless remote controlling a group of lights
>> to me. The 'data' in that case is On/Off/Dim/Bright.
>
> IMO it lacks the 'connectivity' feature.

Wouldn't be much of a remote control if it did!

"A smart object is an object that enhances the interaction with not
only people but also with other smart objects."

So, a mechanical light switch and light wouldn't be considered smart
under those rules, however, a wireless remote that allows the logical
combining of two or more lights and allows you to change brightness and
/ or colour would be. Ideally they would be logically groupable
(programmable / authenticated) rather than a hard coded solution.

Simplified for the salient criteria:

"they are products, assets and other things embedded with, sensors and

connectivity that allow data to be exchanged between the product and

its, operator/user (remote), and other products (the other lights)."

[Gremlin]

T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> news:upib4q$2hksh$1...@dont-email.me Fri, 02 Feb

2024 09:03:19 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

>> And by rebuilt, I mean, taking the rotor out, stripping
>> it down; using a big oven to cook the insulation completely out of it,
>> replacing the bearings, redoing the windings *exactly* as you
>> originally found them, and repairing the stator section where necessary
>> due to coil failure and short circuit conditions inside the motor, the
>> wire gauge, etc,
>
> To that level, none

ROFL, K.

> LOL, yeah, give it a go mate and see how you get on. If someone as
> obviously skilled as Apd sometimes has to have a couple of goes at stuff
> ... ;-)

Tim...

Do you see Apd, or FTR, or SC, telling you that I couldn't provide you the
same assistance as Apd has been? :)
Or hell, even David Brooks for that matter.

Do you really need me to ping him and bother him about this? I'm asking if
you need to read that I can also do what he's been doing for you, or if
you'll accept my word for that?

You really don't know fuckall about me. But, I am starting to get the
general idea you have formed about me.

> But why are you picking holes in what I can't do rather than answering
> my question re re-oiling sintered bearings?

I did. I provided urls. You informed me you didn't click any of them. Both
urls were specific about when and how they should be oiled. I'm done with
the subject. You have your opinion, I have, I'll call it, an opinion so i'm
fair with you about this. And we'll agree to disagree.

> Understood. Still, you could have just asked re my intentions couldn't
> you?

Sure.

>> fucking crayon level coddling at that.
>
> I'm sure Apd would be impressed with that comparison.

Compared to writing actual code, you think he doesn't consider it crayon
level? Why don't you ask him? :)
The shitty documentation is the hold up, btw, not his level of
understanding. With you, it's the level of understanding along with poor
documentation. But in your case, even with decent documentation you'd still
struggle with it.

> You don't need me to tell you, you know all about motors, you told us.

us? Has anyone else given their input on the discussion and I missed it?

> <snip more irrelevant ranting from someone who sure is hurting because
> they don't happen to know it all>

ROFL; And this is your problem with me, this right here. You've misread me
as one of those know it all little fuckheads who think they actually do, but
aren't even close to it. There's all kinds of things I DO NOT know, thanks.
But, at the same time, there are some very specific things I do know, and
quite well, and sorry, but if you don't, and I know you don't, but you try
to talk shit and act like you actually do, I am going to froggy stomp a
mudhole in your ass for your trouble when you try to blow smoke and
challenge me.

> I came here *ASKING* for advice for coding, suggesting the the hard of
> thinking that I didn't know about coding (I said as much).

That's not even really coding, smartass. It's scripting, at best. Mainly
simple configuration files.

> You came here telling us you know all about small ac motors and how to
> maintain them properly (with all yer Yoda bs) but don't seem to know.

If you're talking about acw, I didn't come here doing anything of the kind.
I've been here for years, providing very detailed, very technical advice to
end users just like yourself. You're the n00b here, fuckhead, not me.

> So you come back and write with your own words what way I am suggesting
> you could have lubricated those bearings (*should have* IF you wanted to
> do it properly) and we can take it from there.

I'll continue to follow the advice from the sites I shared, I *already know*
it's solid; long before I'd take the advice from someone who doesn't
comprehend what they read AND assumes I'm a know it all and tries to treat
me accordingly. Fuck You! dude.

[T i m]

On 06/02/2024 03:07, Gremlin wrote:

<snip>

> Tim...

Gremlin ... or whatever your real name and email address is ...
>

<snip>

> Both
> urls were specific about when

Irellevent.

> and how they should be oiled.

So were there any specific mentions re the correct way to lubricate
sintered bearings?

> I'm done with
> the subject.

You were at the beginning when you suggested you were some sort of
electric motor specialist then lubricated an electric fan heater
bearings with a spray on lithium grease. I just asked how long it had
lasted so far and then you threw your dummy out the pram, something you
are still doing for some reason?

Now, if the videos you lined did show how you correctly lubricate
sintered bearings, then my question was why didn't you follow that and
keep trying to argue black is white?

'I couldn't be bothered' is a perfectly valid answer btw, as long as you
knew what 'being bothered' really meant.

<snip>

> You have your opinion,

I have my facts ...

> I have, I'll call it, an opinion so i'm
> fair with you about this.

Not really. You think you know the right way to do something and threw
your dummy out the pram when someone dared to even question that.

> And we'll agree to disagree.

You can do what you like! ;-)
>
<snip>

>>> fucking crayon level coddling at that.
>>
>> I'm sure Apd would be impressed with that comparison.
>
> Compared to writing actual code, you think he doesn't consider it crayon
> level?

Ignoring your attempts of distraction with such pathetic stuff, I'm
guessing Apd would get everything right first time if he thought it was
'crayon level'?

> Why don't you ask him? :)

Why don't you, you are the one who can't seem to read the obvious?

> The shitty documentation is the hold up, btw, not his level of
> understanding.

I'm sure it doesn't help, but he still makes coding typos so it's still
not 'crayon level' for a coder it seems?

> With you, it's the level of understanding along with poor
> documentation.

And my lack of experience, skill, interest ...

> But in your case, even with decent documentation you'd still
> struggle with it.

I DO still struggle with it, that's why I asked here????

>
>> You don't need me to tell you, you know all about motors, you told us.
>
> us? Has anyone else given their input on the discussion and I missed it?

'Us' are any readers of this ng.

>
>> <snip more irrelevant ranting from someone who sure is hurting because
>> they don't happen to know it all>
>
> ROFL; And this is your problem with me, this right here.

I don't HAVE a problem with you mate, you seem to have one with me. That
is especially strange considering how little I said and how far you
threw that dummy!

> You've misread me
> as one of those know it all little fuckheads who think they actually do, but
> aren't even close to it.

Do you suffer with some sort of inferiority complex where you could
react so badly to someone just questioning how long YOUR fan lubrication
choice might last?

> There's all kinds of things I DO NOT know, thanks.

YOU and me both *of course*. One of them for you seems to be how to
correctly lubricate a sintered bearing. Strange, given you volunteered
how you were mentored by a motor guru and the number of motors you have
taken pains to tell us since?

It's like telling us you have rebuilt 1000 cycles but can't fix a puncture.

> But, at the same time, there are some very specific things I do know, and
> quite well, and sorry, but if you don't, and I know you don't, but you try
> to talk shit and act like you actually do, I am going to froggy stomp a
> mudhole in your ass for your trouble when you try to blow smoke and
> challenge me.

Aww bless. You really are still smarting aren't you.

You remind me of someone I worked with when IT training.

When I did my introduction on a new course I would say I was 'Just a
guy, doing his best' and confirmed it was a two way experience. I never
had any issue with any of the delegates (Over 7 years).

Another trainer used to stand up and state he knew all about (say)
Windows NT and 'of course', was challenged by those who might just know
a bit more than him about some specific bits. He brought it upon himself.

>
>> I came here *ASKING* for advice for coding, suggesting the the hard of
>> thinking that I didn't know about coding (I said as much).
>
> That's not even really coding, smartass. It's scripting, at best. Mainly
> simple configuration files.

Woosh.

>
>> You came here telling us you know all about small ac motors and how to
>> maintain them properly (with all yer Yoda bs) but don't seem to know.
>
> If you're talking about acw, I didn't come here doing anything of the kind.

Sorry mate. My mistake, I was treating you like a normal person and I
now realise you aren't. The fact that you misread me like you did about
the motor lube question and now your comment like that, explains a lot
(your bizarre literal translation of things).

> I've been here for years, providing very detailed, very technical advice to
> end users just like yourself. You're the n00b here, fuckhead, not me.

And if my previous observation needed underlining, there it is.

>
>> So you come back and write with your own words what way I am suggesting
>> you could have lubricated those bearings (*should have* IF you wanted to
>> do it properly) and we can take it from there.
>
> I'll continue to follow the advice from the sites I shared, I *already know*
> it's solid; long before I'd take the advice from someone who doesn't
> comprehend what they read AND assumes I'm a know it all and tries to treat
> me accordingly.

Oh dear. Yup, still fits my new understanding of you (and nothing to do
with motor lube) and relying on false assumptions about loads of things
that have never been said or even implied.

> Fuck You! dude.
>
And if it needed rubber stamping, there it is. ;-(

So, last time ... would you kindly point me to a link where it shows how
you should properly lubricate sintered bearing please [1], just so you
can prove to everyone you DO know the right way to do it, even if you
CBA to do it that way at the time?

Cheers, T i m

[1] Not roller bearings, not ball bearings, not plastic bearings, not
force lubricated bearings, not drip lubricated bearings, not plastic
bearings ... s i n t e r e d b e a r i n g s.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-02-06, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

>> Compared to writing actual code, you think he doesn't consider it crayon
>> level?
>
> Ignoring your attempts of distraction with such pathetic stuff, I'm
> guessing Apd would get everything right first time if he thought it was
> 'crayon level'?

Dude, you're killing me here ;) Apd is 'flying blind' on a system that
you are attempting to explain to him (and you often use too much
unnecessary language to do it, which only serves to confuse). The bottom
line is: No one unfamiliar with that system "would get everything right
first time" and it has *nothing* to do with the complexity of the code.

>> Why don't you ask him? :)
>
> Why don't you, you are the one who can't seem to read the obvious?
>
>> The shitty documentation is the hold up, btw, not his level of
>> understanding.
>
> I'm sure it doesn't help, but he still makes coding typos so it's
> still not 'crayon level' for a coder it seems?

It doesn't... because the complexity aspect has nothing to do with
making syntax based typos.

[T i m]

On 06/02/2024 17:04, Steve Carroll wrote:
> On 2024-02-06, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Compared to writing actual code, you think he doesn't consider it crayon
>>> level?
>>
>> Ignoring your attempts of distraction with such pathetic stuff, I'm
>> guessing Apd would get everything right first time if he thought it was
>> 'crayon level'?
>
> Dude, you're killing me here ;)

Good, it couldn't be happening to a better person. ;-)

> Apd is 'flying blind' on a system that
> you are attempting to explain to him

I know, something I have stated several times makes it far more
difficult for him.

>(and you often use too much
> unnecessary language to do it, which only serves to confuse).

And if I didn't, I'd be accused of leaving stuff out.

> The bottom
> line is: No one unfamiliar with that system "would get everything right
> first time"

I never suggested they should / would / could, something fairly likely
to be the case if it was child level.

> and it has *nothing* to do with the complexity of the code.

It does seem to the the case currently though?

>
>>> Why don't you ask him? :)
>>
>> Why don't you, you are the one who can't seem to read the obvious?
>>
>>> The shitty documentation is the hold up, btw, not his level of
>>> understanding.
>>
>> I'm sure it doesn't help, but he still makes coding typos so it's
>> still not 'crayon level' for a coder it seems?
>
> It doesn't... because the complexity aspect has nothing to do with
> making syntax based typos.

Except we ARE talking about the coding, but thanks for your pointless
involvement *again*. ;-)

If something was *actually* 'crayon level' (a comment used by Gremiln
because he *thinks* I've questioned his manhood or something) then it
really wouldn't matter what the tabulation was like would it?

Cheers, T i m

[Snit]

On Feb 6, 2024 at 12:48:27 PM MST, "T i m" wrote
<upu2eb$119iq$2...@dont-email.me>:

It is his specialty. He should replace the characters he posts with useful
ones.

>
> If something was *actually* 'crayon level' (a comment used by Gremiln
> because he *thinks* I've questioned his manhood or something) then it
> really wouldn't matter what the tabulation was like would it?
>
> Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 06/02/2024 19:50, Snit wrote:

<snip>

>> Except we ARE talking about the coding, but thanks for your pointless
>> involvement *again*. ;-)
>
> It is his specialty. He should replace the characters he posts with useful
> ones.
>

And that *should* be 'crayon level' right! ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Snit]

On Feb 6, 2024 at 1:04:32 PM MST, "T i m" wrote
<upu3cg$11i4k$1...@dont-email.me>:

Only give him the edible ones.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-02-06, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

>> Apd is 'flying blind' on a system that you are attempting to explain
>> to him
>
> I know

Then pay better attention (like I told you days ago).

>>(and you often use too much
>> unnecessary language to do it, which only serves to confuse).
>
> And if I didn't, I'd be accused of leaving stuff out.

In your mind ;) Today's big clue? You're posting stuff he snips out:

"I'll snip a load because I need you to focus on what I'm asking." - Apd

He's literally asking you to help him help you <shrug>.

>> The bottom line is: No one unfamiliar with that system "would get
>> everything right first time"
>
> I never suggested they should / would / could, something fairly likely
> to be the case if it was child level.

You're doing it (conflating) again. However complex the system is,
that is *not* reflected in the level of coding complexity.

>> and it has *nothing* to do with the complexity of the code.
>
> It does seem to the the case currently though?

No... and Apd will not tell you this is complex coding because it isn't.
The system might be confounding, but that's an entirely different issue.

>>>> Why don't you ask him? :)
>>>
>>> Why don't you, you are the one who can't seem to read the obvious?
>>>
>>>> The shitty documentation is the hold up, btw, not his level of
>>>> understanding.
>>>
>>> I'm sure it doesn't help, but he still makes coding typos so it's
>>> still not 'crayon level' for a coder it seems?
>>
>> It doesn't... because the complexity aspect has nothing to do with
>> making syntax based typos.
>
> Except we ARE talking about the coding

Only *you* are conflating the complexity of coding with typos. I'm
talking about how one has nothing to do with the other (or with the
complexity of the system). You can have a brilliant coder who makes
typos now and then and a crap coder who never makes them. I can't put it
any more clearly than that.

> , but thanks for your pointless involvement *again*. ;-)

LOL! Like it, or not, Gremlin is right.

> If something was *actually* 'crayon level' (a comment used by Gremiln
> because he *thinks* I've questioned his manhood or something)

From my perspective, you're the one acting like that.

[Steve Carroll]

I gotta give ya credit, you drama queens stick together!

The idea that coding complexity has anything to do with typos is...
goofy, which is why only you two queens are trying to 'sell' it.

[Snit]

On Feb 6, 2024 at 1:41:39 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<upu5i3$11tor$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

You get called out and play victim. As you do. You jump in with pointless
involvement, often tied to your petty squabbles... and then cry when you do
not get a gold star.

[Snit]

On Feb 6, 2024 at 1:37:15 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<upu59r$11tor$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

Could you put it in a way where you are being kind and not condescending and
not trolling?

>
>> , but thanks for your pointless involvement *again*. ;-)
>
> LOL! Like it, or not, Gremlin is right.
>
>> If something was *actually* 'crayon level' (a comment used by Gremiln
>> because he *thinks* I've questioned his manhood or something)
>
> From my perspective, you're the one acting like that.

You are the one trolling. As you do.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-02-06, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You get called out and play victim.

As usual, you're confused. The only person who was 'called out and
played victim' was Tim. Worse, he keeps conflating things with coding
complexity (even typos!).

(snip blatant hypocrisy)

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-02-06, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

Reality is "kind", it's the best 'kind' of "kind" for someone like Tim
(and you).

[T i m]

On 06/02/2024 20:41, Steve Carroll wrote:

> The idea that coding complexity has anything to do with typos is...
> goofy, which is why only you two queens are trying to 'sell' it.
>

I wonder what part of that all being part of 'the solution' don't you
understand?

I mean, it doesn't matter what part of something people find difficult
that stops them reaching a favourable solution does it, it's the fact
*that they can't* that is the point.

If someone can't assemble a flatpack wardrobe because they don't have
the strength to lift the bigger parts, or can but don't understand the
instructions, or can do both of those but don't have the tools, it all
leads to the same thing.

So if you can't complete the code because you don't understand the
maths, or can't spell, or can't get the tabulation right, it all adds up
to the code not working.

None of those issues are more or less relevant / important, if the end
result is fail.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

On 06/02/2024 20:37, Steve Carroll wrote:
<snip>

> "I'll snip a load because I need you to focus on what I'm asking." - Apd

And ironically, in that case, I had answered his questions directly and
succinctly, just not in a format he found easy to process.

I reiterated them in a more tabular format and he was happy.

<snip the rest of the rubbish>

Cheers, T i m

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-02-06, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/02/2024 20:41, Steve Carroll wrote:
>
>> The idea that coding complexity has anything to do with typos is...
>> goofy, which is why only you two queens are trying to 'sell' it.
>>
> I wonder what part of that all being part of 'the solution' don't you
> understand?

You: "I'm sure it doesn't help, but he still makes coding typos so it's

still not 'crayon level' for a coder it seems?"

Me, trying to drum reality into that rock you call your head:

"It doesn't... because the complexity aspect has nothing to do with
making syntax based typos."

What about this don't you 'get'?

> I mean, it doesn't matter what part of something people find difficult
> that stops them reaching a favourable solution does it,

Stop spinning, Tim, it doesn't work. You weren't talking about
"something people find difficult", you were clearly referencing Apd as
the "coder" who "still makes coding typos" and, to that, you tried to
ascribe a level of coding complexity that doesn't exist for him. What
part of that "don't you understand?"

How complex, or not, the code is for Apd has *nothing* to do with *you*.

This is why, when you wrote:

"If something was *actually* 'crayon level' (a comment used by Gremiln
because he *thinks* I've questioned his manhood or something)"

I replied with:

"From my perspective, you're the one acting like that."

Instead of lashing out (we get enough of that from Glasser) go look at
some C++ tuts for beginners, you'll see why Gremlin said what he did.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-02-06, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

> On 06/02/2024 20:37, Steve Carroll wrote:
><snip>
>
>> "I'll snip a load because I need you to focus on what I'm asking." - Apd
>
> And ironically, in that case

That wasn't an isolated incident. Reread the thread, you'll see you
posted a bunch of unnecessary 'stuff' that wasn't helpful and/or didn't
address what he was trying to obtain from you. You don't edit, for this
you need to edit.

[T i m]

On 06/02/2024 22:59, Steve Carroll wrote:
> On 2024-02-06, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 06/02/2024 20:37, Steve Carroll wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> "I'll snip a load because I need you to focus on what I'm asking." - Apd
>>
>> And ironically, in that case
>
> That wasn't an isolated incident.

And unlikely to be, given the length of the conversation(s) so far.

> Reread the thread,

I don't need to, certainly to to try to prove you pointless.

> you'll see you
> posted a bunch of unnecessary 'stuff' that wasn't helpful and/or didn't
> address what he was trying to obtain from you.

Again, hardly surprising, considering. Still, that didn't seem to stop
you trying to do the exact same, but in your case, after I'd told you
not to bother many many times.

One rule for you ... ?

Cheers, T i m

[Snit]

On Feb 6, 2024 at 4:41:21 PM MST, "T i m" wrote
<upug31$13m7l$1...@dont-email.me>:

> On 06/02/2024 22:59, Steve Carroll wrote:
>> On 2024-02-06, T i m <ete...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On 06/02/2024 20:37, Steve Carroll wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> "I'll snip a load because I need you to focus on what I'm asking." - Apd
>>>
>>> And ironically, in that case
>>
>> That wasn't an isolated incident.
>
> And unlikely to be, given the length of the conversation(s) so far.

Maybe he is paid by the number of responses he can get?

>
>> Reread the thread,
>
> I don't need to, certainly to to try to prove you pointless.

But re-reading it will serve his purpose of wasting more of your time.

>
>> you'll see you
>> posted a bunch of unnecessary 'stuff' that wasn't helpful and/or didn't
>> address what he was trying to obtain from you.
>
> Again, hardly surprising, considering. Still, that didn't seem to stop
> you trying to do the exact same, but in your case, after I'd told you
> not to bother many many times.

I admit I respond to his trolling endlessly. At least I admit to my part of
the equation.

>
> One rule for you ... ?
>
> Cheers, T i m

[Snit]

On Feb 6, 2024 at 3:59:56 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<upudlc$13a18$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

When you obsessively scavenge and forge quotes about me you say they are
indicative of what I am even if you cannot quote me doing it.

He and I quote you and you still deny it.

Your hypocrisy knows no ends.