internal vs external transfers
speedlever
I have a terrible time trying to make heads or tails out of my reports
because my income is artificially inflated by bogus transfers if I
select "include all." And my expenses are artificially low if I select
"exclude all." I can't tell any difference between include all and
exclude internal.
I presume an internal transfer is when I pay a visa bill and the
category is "[Visa]". Same for the house pmt where the principal
portion goes to the account setup for the house while the interest
portion goes to Interest,Home category.
I also do savings set-asides for certain non-monthly bills and make a
monthly transfer from checking to savings for that lump sum. When I
have an applicable bill, I write the check and then transfer back from
savings into checking to cover it. So I presume that's another
internal transfer that's affected.
This, from Quicken help, is not very helpful in understanding what it
does:
**************
Include All: Includes all transfers in the report or graph.
Exclude All: Excludes all transfers in the report or graph (use for a
report or graph showing income and expenses without transfers, such as
the business P&L statement report).
Exclude Internal: Excludes transfers within accounts that are included
in the report or graph (such as the opening balance or adjustment
transactions).
************
Steve Larson
been broken since 2004 was released 6 months ago. I, and others, have
reported this many times to Intuit, but they have not been responsive. You
are correct regarding how an internal transfer should work. Intuit
apparently has placed this bug on a very low priority, thinking that people
either don't use the core financial reporting, or that their customers won't
care if the numbers are incorrect. I bought Q2004 in August of 03, and I
immediately reverted back to Quicken 2003 once I found that major bug.
After 3 patch releases since August, I'm still waiting for Intuit to fix
their product.
"speedlever" <speed...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:965b1a76.04020...@posting.google.com...
scott s.
news:965b1a76.04020...@posting.google.com:
> What exactly are they?
>
> I have a terrible time trying to make heads or tails out of my reports
> because my income is artificially inflated by bogus transfers if I
> select "include all." And my expenses are artificially low if I select
> "exclude all." I can't tell any difference between include all and
> exclude internal.
The main purpose I have seen for them is the cash flow report.
>
> I presume an internal transfer is when I pay a visa bill and the
> category is "[Visa]". Same for the house pmt where the principal
> portion goes to the account setup for the house while the interest
> portion goes to Interest,Home category.
A transfer between two current asset/liability accounts such as checking
acct and Visa account is not a cash flow, and in the cash flow report
is considered an "internal transfer" and not shown.
A transfer from a current asset account to a fixed asset/long term
liability account such as from a checking account to home loan _is_ a
cash flow and in the cash flow report is considered an "external
transfer" which is shown.
Income and expenses (in Quicken) are treated as cash flows, but
Quicken does not call these transfers.
Cash flow and income (profit & loss) reports show different things,
which is why there are two different reports.
For more info I recommend these books:
The 12-Hour MBA Program by Sobel
How to Understand Financial Statements by Ferris, Tennant, and Jerris
scott s.
.
John Blaustein
I found your explanation very interesting. Thank you.
Are you saying, therefore, that the Income/Expense report is working
correctly? Further, do you think that those of us who are seeing no
difference between setting transfers to Exclude Internal and Show All are
just not understanding the underlying principles of accounting?
I need to test which types of accounts -- and transfers between them -- are
showing transfers in the Income/Expense report. It may be that I (and
others?) just aren't understanding what these accounts are supposed to be
showing.
In any case, I'm curious to know if you think the Income/Expense report is
working correctly. Unless I missed it, you didn't say that specifically.
John
"scott s." <75270...@csi.xcom> wrote in message
news:Xns9488694D7A22E...@205.188.138.161...
Steve Larson
Also, Intuit's tech support confirmed to me that it is a bug and should be
fixed sometime in the future.
"scott s." <75270...@csi.xcom> wrote in message
news:Xns9488694D7A22E...@205.188.138.161...
speedlever
Scott S: I need to meditate on your reply. Thanks for the book
recommendations. I have no training or experience in accounting
matters other than what I get by balancing the checkbook every month
and what little I've learned by using Q over the years. :-)
BTW, I am using Q2004D.
What has prompted me to try and understand more of what Q can do and
how to make use of that info is a Dave Ramsey/Financial Peace course
that my wife and I are attending in the hope that we can learn to do a
better job managing our money.
I have wondered what the difference is between a Cash Flow report and
an Income & Expense report. I'll take your word for it that they give
a different picture of the data.
As a test, I ran 4 itemized category reports for January 2004. I ran 2
I&E reports and 2 CF reports, all with Exclude Internal transfers
selected.
The only difference between the 2 I&E reports is that in the first
report I selected only active accounts and deleted certain categories
so I wouldn't have the transfers show up on my report. In the second
report I ran the report with all accounts and all cats selected.
I did the same with the CF reports.
One quick difference that pops up is that of the 4 reports, only the
first I&E report has Income and Expense headings. The other 3 all use
Inflows and Outflows for headings.
I'm outta time right now to continue this. More later..
John Pollard
> What exactly are they?
<snip>
> This, from Quicken help, is not very helpful in understanding
what it
> does:
> **************
> Include All: Includes all transfers in the report or graph.
>
> Exclude All: Excludes all transfers in the report or graph
(use for a
> report or graph showing income and expenses without transfers,
such as
> the business P&L statement report).
>
> Exclude Internal: Excludes transfers within accounts that are
included
> in the report or graph (such as the opening balance or
adjustment
> transactions).
> ************
Can you please confirm that the above is the exact wording for
the definition of "Exclude Internal"?
In Q2002 deluxe for Windows, US, where you show (Q2004 shows?)
the word "within" as in "transfers within accounts"; Q2002 says
"between" as in "transfers between accounts".
I think this could be a significant difference in meaning. If
internal transfers are considered by Intuit to be transfers
"within" a given account, that meaning is very different than
transfers between accounts. And if you look at the examples
that Intuit gives in the Q2004 help, they strongly suggest that
an "internal transfer" is a transfer to the account in which the
transation is posted (that is how balance and adjustment entries
are constructed). I believe that this is a much different
meaning than has been attributed to this concept up to now ...
at least in my case.
--
John Pollard
first initial underscore last name at bellsouth dot net
John Blaustein
-------------------------------------------
Here is the Q2004 H&B Glossary definition from the Help file:
Transfer
A transaction that transfers money from one account to another. Transfers
record two parallel transactions: one in the register from which the money
is drawn and one in the register that receives the money. The transfer
appears in the Category field, with the account name in brackets. For
example, [Savings] or [Checking].
-------------------------------------------
From Help on Customizing reports:
Customize a report or graph
Transfers
Specify the transfers to include in the report or graph. Your options are:
Include All: Includes all transfers in the report or graph.
Exclude All: Excludes all transfers in the report or graph (use for a report
or graph showing income and expenses without transfers, such as the business
P&L statement report).
Exclude Internal: Excludes transfers within accounts that are included in
the report or graph (such as the opening balance or adjustment
transactions).
-------------------------------------------
Report Basis (only in Quicken Premier Home & Business)
Accrual
a.. A method of bookkeeping in which you regard income or expenses as
occurring at the time you ship a product, render a service, or receive a
purchase. Under this method, the time when you enter a transaction and the
time when you actually pay or receive cash may be two separate events.
b.. In Quicken, an accrual-basis report shows income regardless of whether
all your customers have paid up, and expenses regardless of whether you have
paid all your bills.
c.. Select Accrual to put the following business reports on an accrual
basis in Quicken:
a.. P&L Statement and Comparison
b.. Balance Sheet
c.. Tax Schedule
d.. Schedule C
e.. Itemized Categories
Cash
a.. A method of bookkeeping in which you regard income or expenses as
occurring at the time you actually receive a payment or pay a bill. A
cash-basis report shows income only if you have received it, and expenses
only if you have paid them. For example, if you have not yet received a
payment for an invoice, a cash-basis report on your sales will not include
the amount of the invoice.
b.. The business reports listed below are set to cash basis by default.
Select Accrual to put the following business reports on an accrual basis in
Quicken:
a.. P&L Statement and Comparison
b.. Tax Schedule
c.. Schedule C
d.. Balance Sheet
e.. Itemized Categories
John
"John Pollard" <invalid...@noisp.com> wrote in message
news:22PVb.26335$8a5....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
<snip>
John Pollard
Thanks. I still think there may be a clue in the wording change
(from Q2002 to Q2004) in the definition of "Internal Transfer".
Despite the "definition" of the word transfer you quoted, you
can do a transfer into the same account in which the transaction
is posted, it does not requre two accounts to be involved. If
you have an account named "My Checking Account", you can enter a
transaction in the register of that account with a category of
"[My Checking Account]"; this is a "transfer", but it is not a
transfer from one account to another, it is a transfer from one
account to itself, a transfer "within" an account. This
transaction is excluded from reports when you select either
"Exclude All" or "Exclude Internal" in Q2002.
I do not claim that my interpretation of the words is what
Intuit intended, I was just theorizing; but you can check to see
if Exclude Internal now (in Q2004) *only* excludes transfers
"within" the same account.
John Blaustein
issue...
It seems that as far as Quicken 2004 is concerned, an Internal Transfer is
NOT what we've all been assuming. That is, it is NOT a transaction which
transfers money from one Quicken account to another Quicken account.
Instead, it is a transaction which transfers money from an account to itself
(so to speak). An example is, as John P. pointed out, a transaction in the
account called My Checking Account where the category shows as [My Checking
Account]. All accounts have at least one such transaction -- the Opening
Balance transaction, even if it's amount is zero.
I did a test -- I created a new Quicken file, created four new accounts, all
with different opening balances dated 1/1/04. I then entered a number of
new transactions, including (of course) transfers of money between these new
accounts and some expense transactions. Well, low and behold, when running
the Income/Expense report to include all dates and all accounts, the Exclude
Internal Transfers switch ONLY effects the opening balance transactions.
From this I conclude that Quicken 2004's definition of Internal Transfer is
as stated in the Help file: "transfers within accounts that are included in
the report or graph (such as the opening balance or adjustment
transactions)."
So, John P., you said:
> I do not claim that my interpretation of the words is what
> Intuit intended, I was just theorizing; but you can check to see
> if Exclude Internal now (in Q2004) *only* excludes transfers
> "within" the same account.
The answer is YES. Exclude Internal Transfers only acts on transactions
where the category is the account name -- account is My Checking and
category is [My Checking]. Whether that's what we users want, I'm not sure.
I would now say, however, that Quicken is at least acting consistently with
what the Help file says it is supposed to be doing.
One question now is: Why did Intuit change the behavior of the Exclude
Internal Transfer switch from previous versions to '04?
John
"John Pollard" <invalid...@noisp.com> wrote in message
news:rsRVb.2746$A75....@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
<snip>
John Cordes
> John Blaustein wrote:
<snip>
>> Here is the Q2004 H&B Glossary definition from the Help file:
>> From Help on Customizing reports:
>> Customize a report or graph
>> Transfers
>> Specify the transfers to include in the report or graph. Your options
>> are:
>> Include All: Includes all transfers in the report or graph.
>> Exclude All: Excludes all transfers in the report or graph (use for
>> a report or graph showing income and expenses without transfers,
>> such as the business P&L statement report).
>> Exclude Internal: Excludes transfers within accounts that are
>> included in the report or graph (such as the opening balance or
>> adjustment transactions).
> Thanks. I still think there may be a clue in the wording change
> (from Q2002 to Q2004) in the definition of "Internal Transfer".
> Despite the "definition" of the word transfer you quoted, you can
> do a transfer into the same account in which the transaction is
> posted, it does not requre two accounts to be involved. If you have
> an account named "My Checking Account", you can enter a transaction
> in the register of that account with a category of "[My Checking
> Account]"; this is a "transfer", but it is not a transfer from one
> account to another, it is a transfer from one account to itself,
> a transfer "within" an account. This transaction is excluded from
> reports when you select either "Exclude All" or "Exclude Internal"
> in Q2002.
> I do not claim that my interpretation of the words is what Intuit
> intended, I was just theorizing; but you can check to see if Exclude
> Internal now (in Q2004) *only* excludes transfers "within" the same
> account.
Just for the record, I'll mention that the Help in Quicken XG 2004
(Canadian version) re Transfers in Reports is identical to that
reported by John Blaustein above for Q2004 H&B.
--
John Cordes
John Blaustein
Thanks for adding that. We may be getting somewhere here.
John
"John Cordes" <john....@dal.ca> wrote in message
news:DiTVb.16881$Ja2.1...@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
<snip>
Steve Larson
versions of Quicken. Prior to 2004, the functionality of Exclude Internal
served to eliminate transactions that were internal to "the selected
accounts included within the report". By not including a mortgage liability
account in your custom report, the report/graph would show the bank account
payment as an expense, without an opposite balancing entry as an income to
the liability account. If the mortgage account was included in the report,
then the mortgage payment should show as an income and an expense, or a
balancing transaction. Regardless how it happens, the ability to show a
"transfer" as an expense is vital for financial reporting.
"John Blaustein" <nom...@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:Pt6dncjzsqJ...@lmi.net...
John Blaustein
As far as I can tell, you have that just right about how this worked prior
to '04. What I'm now seeing is that '04 works this way as well.
Quicken 2004 shows transfers as an expense in the account "from which" the
money exited. In fact, even with Exclude Internal Transfers selected, a
transfer between two accounts will indeed be included in the report. Using
your example, if the report only includes the checking account, then the
transfer from the checking to the mortgage account shows up as an expense.
If the mortgage account is also include in the report, then both sides of
the transfer are included -- the checking side shows as an expense and the
mortgage side shows as income. If both accounts are included in the report,
the two transactions zero each other out, but they are both included in the
report.
It seems to me that what we've all been discussing here -- to use your
example -- is that if both the checking and mortgage accounts are included
in the report, then the transfers between those two accounts should be
excluded by Exclude Internal Transfers. Am I correct that this is what
we've been assuming to be how Quicken should work?
As I stated earlier this afternoon, after creating and testing a new file,
the ONLY transactions affected by Exclude Internal Transactions seem to be
those where the category is [account name] -- like an opening balance or
balance adjustment (as the Help file states). I have to say that, once
again, I'm inclined to think nothing is broken here. Quicken is doing what
it says it's supposed to do.
John
"Steve Larson" <r...@NOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:6WTVb.33657$qK3...@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
John Currier
learned to use over the years doesn't work, and won't work, in Quicken 2004!
Intuit will correct this in 2005 and use the correction as a marketing tool
to sell us all the "New and Improved Quicken 2005"!
Steve Larson
ends up. I usuallly get some of the cost back with a Costco rebate, and
with a TurboTax combined software rebate, so the net price kind of softens a
bit. I'm angry with Intuit for affecting that feature, but I'm also
dedicated to Quicken for managing my finances. I'm still holding on to
faith that they will fix it at some point. Granted, their offshoring makes
me a bit nervous and distrustful of them, but hopefully there are still some
reasonable minds within Intuit.
"John Currier" <tryand...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:viVVb.19028$jH6....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
speedlever
duplicate cash flow report rather than another I&E as I intended.
That's why the headings differed. And that's about as far as I've had
time to dig into this for now.
I do wonder why the cash flow reports show the following as income:
1) principal paid on home loan
2) Visa pmt
3) transfers to savings
4) payroll deductions for 401k and 403b accounts
I can only assume that these items show as income because they
represent a balancing of reduced liability (i.e., less owed on the
house) vs available cash (less cash in the bank after a pmt is made).
I'm guessing I'd understand this a lot better if I read the books
scott s suggested. ;-)
Now if only my income was as high as reported in a cash flow report!
OTOH, the rest of this thread has proven to be quite interesting.
Yes, John Pollard. I just did a cut and paste from the help file for
Q2004D. But I'm sure you already know that by now. ;-) I find it
interesting that Q has made a change here with no explanation other
than a reworded help file.
A little Intuit presence here would go a long way when sorting out
this kind of informtion.
speed...@yahoo.com (speedlever) wrote in message news:<965b1a76.04020...@posting.google.com>...
R. C. White
> I have wondered what the difference is between a Cash Flow report and
> an Income & Expense report. I'll take your word for it that they give
> a different picture of the data.
When you borrow $1,000, cash flows in to you, but that is NOT income. When
you pay off the loan, with $100 interest, that is NOT an expense - except
for the interest.
A Cash Flow Report should show the $1,000 flowing in. It should also show
the $1,000 flowing out. In addition, the $100 interest will be included in
the summary line for Net Income/Expense. That net income/expense line will
not be broken down into the many detail items, but the $100 will be in there
somewhere. If you borrowed last year and paid it back this year, then last
year's reports will show a positive cash flow, but no income. This year's
reports will show a negative cash flow that is larger than this year's
expenses.
An Income & Expense Report will not show either the borrowing or the payback
of the principal of the loan; those are neither income nor expense. It will
show the interest expense, lumped in with all the other interest expense
amounts.
Cash Flow is definitely related to Income and Expenses - but it is
definitely NOT the same thing!
In the very long run, net cash flow probably will equal net income/expense.
But when we break that long run down into discrete years or months, we see
that some months have cash flow, but no income; others may have income, but
no cash. That's life. And that's what the reports should show. The
well-designed accounting and reporting system will show us both kinds of
information. And it won't mix them up.
RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
(Retired - no longer licensed to practice)
San Marcos, TX
r...@corridor.net
"speedlever" <speed...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:965b1a76.04020...@posting.google.com...
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John Pollard
> Let's face it, Intuit screwed up. This important feature that
we've
> all learned to use over the years doesn't work, and won't
work, in
> Quicken 2004!
If, as it seems, it was Intuit's intention to modify the way
this option worked, then that would explain why they have not
"fixed" it.
> Intuit will correct this in 2005 and use the correction as a
> marketing tool to sell us all the "New and Improved Quicken
2005"!
If it were me, I would add one more option to that "Advanced >
Transfers" drop down which restored the previous capability;
leaving the current (Q2004) "Exclude Internal" to work as it now
does. I think the ability to separately exclude transfers
"within" the same account (as opposed to transfers "between"
accounts) is a useful option.
And, in the meantime, unless someone here can disprove it, you
can duplicate the prior version's "Exclude Internal" operation
by excluding the [Account] categories for each Account in the
report.
John Blaustein
See comments inline below...
"John Pollard" <invalid...@noisp.com> wrote in message
news:vh7Wb.8101$A75...@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> If, as it seems, it was Intuit's intention to modify the way
> this option worked, then that would explain why they have not
> "fixed" it.
Agreed. Big difference between "within" and "between." I wonder why Intuit
felt the need to change how the transfers switch works. In addition, why
didn't they tell us about the change in the "What's New" list.
> If it were me, I would add one more option to that "Advanced >
> Transfers" drop down which restored the previous capability;
> leaving the current (Q2004) "Exclude Internal" to work as it now
> does. I think the ability to separately exclude transfers
> "within" the same account (as opposed to transfers "between"
> accounts) is a useful option.
Great idea!
> And, in the meantime, unless someone here can disprove it, you
> can duplicate the prior version's "Exclude Internal" operation
> by excluding the [Account] categories for each Account in the
> report.
That certainly seems to work. I've tried a few reports with the [Accounts]
unchecked and those transfers aren't in the reports. I hope some of the
"accountant types" here will add to this discussion.
John B
John Blaustein
Thanks for that explanation.
I can't remember if you are using Q2004. In a post earlier today, John
Pollard said this:
"And, in the meantime, unless someone here can disprove it, you
can duplicate the prior version's "Exclude Internal" operation
by excluding the [Account] categories for each Account in the
report."
I've been testing this and John seems to be correct. As a (retired) CPA,
can you comment of this? I'm sure lots of people following this issue would
appreciate your input.
Thanks.
John
"R. C. White" <r...@corridor.net> wrote in message
news:4028fe22$1...@corp.newsgroups.com...
Steve Larson
isn't an online support document referencing this issue. It would also
explain why online Chat support told me that the feature is not working
properly and would be fixed in the future.
"John Pollard" <invalid...@noisp.com> wrote in message
news:vh7Wb.8101$A75...@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
scott s.
> Scott,
>
> I found your explanation very interesting. Thank you.
>
> Are you saying, therefore, that the Income/Expense report is
> working correctly? Further, do you think that those of us who are
> seeing no difference between setting transfers to Exclude Internal
> and Show All are just not understanding the underlying principles
> of accounting?
>
I have a copy of Q2004 on the shelf, but use Q2002, so can't
address how that version works. I was describing how the exclude
internal transfers setting works in Q2002 and prior versions, and
why I surmise it was included.
In Q02, the "Profit & Loss Statement" report is set with exclude
all transfers, and gives the right answer. Setting include all
or exclude internal gives the wrong answer.
scott s.
John Blaustein
Thank you. In 2004, the P/L report is also set to Exclude All and gives the
correct results... maybe, sort of. Here is what I mean. Let's say you pay
your mortgage by making a transfer from checking to your house liability
account. If you Exclude All, then that transfer will not show up as an
expense. Instead, what you have to do is one of two things:
1) Include All transfers and only select your cash accounts (checking,
saving, credit card) for the report.
2) Select all accounts, Include All transfers and uncheck the cash accounts
in the report in the category list within customize report. (When I say
"cash accounts," I mean the accounts from which money flows out. It's all
very convoluted which makes it hard to know if one has the correct report
settings to produce the desired results.)
Take a look at the thread I just posted: I/E REPORT: Internal Transfers --
2002 vs. 2004
Transfers in 2002 and 2004 reports work differently. Who knows why Intuit
made that change. Perhaps someone can explain it.
John
"scott s." <75270...@csi.xcom> wrote in message
news:Xns948BACDF1884F...@205.188.138.161...
speedlever
Thanks for your excellent explanation on Cash Flow reports. I see now
that maybe I need to go back to school and learn enough about
accounting so I can learn how to properly use Q! ;-)
The bottom line (about this Q04 change in the Exclude internal
transfer option) is as John Blaustein stated in an earlier msg above.
It is very convoluted and makes me lose confidence in the accuracy of
my reports. I now wish I had kept my copy of Q03D instead of returning
it unopened for Q04D.
************* quote from John Blaustein *********
R. C. White
Sorry. Sometimes I can understand and explain accounting theory. But NO
WAY can I explain Quicken theory sometimes. :>(
I've seen the many ongoing threads about the Internal and External Transfers
problems in Q2004 (versus prior versions - yes, I'm now using Q2004 Basic).
But I've stayed out of that discussion because I don't rely very much on
Quicken Reports. I look at my Income and Expense Report nearly every day,
and Net Worth almost as often, but don't use budgeting or ROI analyses or
other more sophisticated reports. I often delve into the past by changing
the dates on the income and net worth reports, and take a closer look at
specific items by double-clicking on them or highlighting one and pressing
Enter. But these don't generally involve transfers, which basically means
just moving money from one pocket to another, or borrowing money and paying
it back, none of which have any effect on net income or net worth.
I haven't researched the Transfers questions, and don't intend to. But if I
were a betting man, I'd put my money on John Pollard to come up with the
best answers to Quicken questions. ;<)
RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
(Retired - no longer licensed to practice)
San Marcos, TX
r...@corridor.net
"John Blaustein" <nom...@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:UqudnU7PDqm...@lmi.net...
John Blaustein
I am totally baffled about why, after all these years, Intuit changed the
way this report switch works. Now that I'm clear on what it's doing, I can
use the report with confidence. However, having no "advanced notice" of the
change made for some worrisome analysis of reports that didn't look at all
familiar at first.
John
"R. C. White" <r...@corridor.net> wrote in message
news:402a35bc$1...@corp.newsgroups.com...
scott s.
> Hi, Speedlever.
>
>> I have wondered what the difference is between a Cash Flow report
>> and an Income & Expense report. I'll take your word for it that
>> they give a different picture of the data.
>
> When you borrow $1,000, cash flows in to you, but that is NOT
> income. When you pay off the loan, with $100 interest, that is
> NOT an expense - except for the interest.
Unless your name is Enron!
scott s.
.
scott s.
An
> example is, as John P. pointed out, a transaction in the account
> called My Checking Account where the category shows as [My
> Checking Account]. All accounts have at least one such
> transaction -- the Opening Balance transaction, even if it's
> amount is zero.
>
FWIW, I always delete those opening balance transfers. There
doesn't seem to be any real reason to have transfers from/into
the same account except as a "band-aid" to correct an account.
scott s.
.