OT: Citi Cards Refuses to Remove Fees Charged in Error
Margaret
of Citi credit cards....
Be warned....
Margaret
***********************************************************************
Citi Cards charged me a late fee when my scheduled payment posted one
day prior to the due date (according to my Citi statement). Upon
checking with my bank, I learned Citi Cards made no attempt to pull the
funds as scheduled. (If they had, my Fidelity account's history would
show either a debit or a "rejected - insufficient funds" notation.
Fidelity has no record of either.)
The real problem is getting the erroneous fee removed. Citi Cards
requires a letter from my bank stating they have no record of any
attempt by Citi Cards to withdraw funds. The problem gets stickier,
because my bank account is a Fidelity SmartCash account. Fidelity uses
various "member banks" to hold and process funds, in my case, XXXXX
bank. Citi Cards requires this letter to be written on XXXXX Bank's
letterhead. As I am not a customer of XXXXX Bank (Fidelity is), I can
obtain no such letter from XXXXX Bank. Now Fidelity is willing to write
such a letter (also explaining their financial relationship with XXXXX),
but this does not satisfy Citi Cards' requirement!
Supervisor Kim at Citi Cards tells me they only apply a returned check
fee if a debit attempt is made and rejected. Even though their own
transaction history shows no transaction was rejected, Citi Cards still
requires this impossible-to-obtain letter from XXXXX stating as such! My
account is with Fidelity, my service relationship and account history is
with Fidelity, yet because my account has an XXXXX routing transit
number, a letter from Fidelity is insufficient to have this $39 returned
check fee removed.
I have had accounts with Citi Cards spanning 30 years. I have an
excellent credit history and always pay my balance in full each month.
Further, I charge everything I possibly can, as it usually makes monthly
bill paying simpler, and I like the rewards. Even though I currently
have two very active accounts with Citi Cards (and Citi knows I will
close both if they don't removed the fee), Citi Cards insists on this
letter from XXXXX. Citi claims that because the fee was charged, there
must have been a rejection ... even though their transaction history
shows none!
Citi's Kim has agreed to have her manager, Mr. Troy, call me within 24
hours. Fidelity has been most helpful offering to do a conference call
with Citi Cards if they will accept this as proof they failed to attempt
the scheduled debit on 5/19. But if Mr. Troy fails to call or still
insists on a letter from XXXXX, my only recourse is to either pay Citi
Cards the $39 or close my accounts, pay my balances (save the $39) and
allow my excellent credit history to be blemished.
IMNSHO, Citi Cards is simply attempting to hang onto fees by requiring
card holders jump through expensive and exhausting hoops to have them
removed (even when those charges result from errors by their own
institution). In my last phone call I learned from Fidelity that Citi
Cards is *just now* attempting to debit my account for the payment I
scheduled for 5/19. Interesting, eh? ;-)
Citi's supervisor Kim tells me they have a department dedicated to
processing fee-removal request letters from banks. Even if they didn't
have a dedicated department, the cost of banks having to write letters
and Citi's having to process them costs well over $39 even if we
discount time spent by the card holder. I've been on the phone with
Citi and Fidelity most of this morning, and I still have an uphill
battle to fight. Certainly fighting this battle is not really worth my
time, but it's the principle that concerns me. I can still pay my
mortgage and my grocery bill even if I pay the $39. But what about
people deeply affected by our devastated economy? That $39 could make
the difference between eating or not. I thought this new credit card
legislation was supposed to protect consumers. Clearly Citi Cards has
figured out a new way to bleed its card holders.
Some specifics:
My Citi payment was due on 5/20, and I scheduled a payment for the full
balance for 5/19. (I scheduled the payment on 4/24 when I received my
online statement and recorded the confirmation number.) I follow this
same process each month, and until now Citi has been pulling my payment
without incident. On the day in question (5/19), I had plenty of
available cash in my SmartCash account to cover debits, more than enough
to cover Citi's .
Bob Wang
I have a mySmart Cash Account also, but I do all of my checking through
Alliant Credit Union.
I earn 1.5% on my checking account cash instead of the 0.1% at Fidelity.
Bob
Margaret
So what do you use the SmartCash account for? Still, this isn't
Fidelity's fault, it's Citi's....
And I'm steamed enough that I started a blog....
Margaret
David H. Lipman
| Be warned....
| Margaret
| Some specifics:
Write a snail mail letter and close the account and explain WHY you are closing the
account based upon the above.
--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp
Bob Wang
I don't use the mySmart Cash Account at all.
I guess I could have my Fidelity AmEx rebate deposited into it, but right
now it's going into my Fidelity Core account.
There WAS a reason I opened it last year, but I can't really remember why.
Bob
Margaret
A couple years ago it paid quite a bit more than the current 0.1%. Now
it's not really worth much, and perhaps more trouble than it's worth!!
Margaret
Margaret
>
> Write a snail mail letter and close the account and explain WHY you are closing the
> account based upon the above.
Good idea, except I'm not sure where to write to. The only address I
can find that doesn't simply accept payments is a "general
correspondence" address. I can't imagine sending a letter to that
address would make much difference. :-(
An update: I called Citibank yet again and complained until I got a
senior account manager. She called Fidelity while I was on the line and
was able to confirm there was no transaction attempt recorded on the
date in question. She credited the $39 fee, but I'm worn out.
I just got a letter from Citibank the other day further reducing my cash
rewards. There's no longer much point in keeping my Citibank accounts
AFAIC.
Regards,
Margaret
--
http://twokatmew.smugmug.com
David H. Lipman
| David H. Lipman wrote:
Give them hell. Put in in writing with your hand written signature. Let them know your
displeasure in the snail mail.
If you don't have the postal address, call them back up and have them provide you the
address that you should send the letter to.
Good luck!
Sam Spade
"Margaret" <twok...@gmailx.invalid> wrote in message
news:hthck1$1nf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
ETrade and they say if they miss sending my requested payment they will eat
any costs charged to me. Knock on wood, but haven't had any problems for
about 5 years now.
Margaret
> Whew!! Glad you got the $39 fee credited. I happen to use Bill Pay with
> ETrade and they say if they miss sending my requested payment they will eat
> any costs charged to me. Knock on wood, but haven't had any problems for
> about 5 years now.
Yeah, Fidelity's the same way. I may start having Fidelity push
payments rather than having creditors pull funds. Fidelity's customer
service is good, so if there's a problem, it should be fairly easily
remedied.
Robert Neville
>My Citi payment was due on 5/20, and I scheduled a payment for the full
>balance for 5/19. (I scheduled the payment on 4/24 when I received my
>online statement and recorded the confirmation number.) I follow this
>same process each month, and until now Citi has been pulling my payment
>without incident.
As you discovered, allowing a creditor to pull money from your account is
generally a bad idea for multiple reasons. Far better to schedule push pays
using your bank's bill payment system, even if it means you have to schedule the
transaction yourself (as when the amount varies from month to month).
Robert Neville
>Whew!! Glad you got the $39 fee credited. I happen to use Bill Pay with
>ETrade and they say if they miss sending my requested payment they will eat
>any costs charged to me. Knock on wood, but haven't had any problems for
>about 5 years now.
That wasn't the problem. The problem was that the OP told Citi to pull funds
from his Fidelity account and Citi didn't do it. Not sure why you would even
bring Fidelity (or Fidelity's correspondent bank) into it. Citi should have a
record of the autorization to withdraw as well as the evidence they didn't do
it.
Sharx35
"Robert Neville" <do...@bother.com> wrote in message
news:sbhov5h3rg98v4m2l...@4ax.com...
B.S.! I've been using creditor pulls for over TWENTY YEARS. Not ONE single
problem. NADA.
Robert Neville
>B.S.! I've been using creditor pulls for over TWENTY YEARS. Not ONE single
>problem. NADA.
And I've never been struck by lightning, but that doesn't mean I will go play
golf in a thunderstorm. You have to separate the probability of occurance from
the amount of damage if a problem does occur.
Sharx35
"Robert Neville" <do...@bother.com> wrote in message
news:0hkov59v1oq9f6i5r...@4ax.com...
No doubt you ALWAYS wait TWO hours after ANY eating before swimming, too.
PUSSY!!!!!
Andrew
FWIW, I have a fairly small automatic transaction in the middle of my
payment month to Citi for at more than the minimum due that I expect I'd
ever owe just in case my 'real' push via Checkfree does not go through
correctly...just to cover this type of situation. It's the only one I do
this for since they're my main card holder. (Use them because Hilton is
what they've branded with, and I use the Hilton Rewards program.)
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Regards -
- Andrew
Han
I'd be as pissed a Citi as Margaret is. And I have been several times on
the verge of pulling all my accounts from Citi. However, I have
authorized Citi to pull money from my Cesah account to pay the balance of
my MC in full each month, and I have never had a problem with that and
will not accept any funny business at any time.
I have had several instances of Citi taking measures to protect my credit
card and me, and have only commendations for that service.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Margaret
Margaret
I had to bring Fidelity into it because Citi initially required written
proof of no debit attempt from my bank, hence Fidelity. Citi did indeed
have the evidence you mention, which is why the whole thing was even
more ridiculous. In the end Citi still required a conference call with
Fidelity, so bringing Fidelity in was a necessity, not a choice.
And I'm not a him. Did you even *read* my post?
Margaret
Margaret
>
> I'd be as pissed a Citi as Margaret is. And I have been several times on
> the verge of pulling all my accounts from Citi. However, I have
> authorized Citi to pull money from my Cesah account to pay the balance of
> my MC in full each month, and I have never had a problem with that and
> will not accept any funny business at any time.
>
> I have had several instances of Citi taking measures to protect my credit
> card and me, and have only commendations for that service.
Yes, I've had accounts with Citi off and on for ~25 years. I've pulled
my accounts from Citi before when I had reason to be pissed at them, but
I eventually went back as they increased their rewards programs. They
have indeed saved my cards from being compromised on more than one
occasion, too. But now I'm really pissed I had to jump through absurd
hoops to get the charge removed.
I may just stick Citi's cards in a drawer and use my Chase & Discover
cards until I get over being pissed. ;-) BTW, Discover is running a
$250 cash back bonus from 6/1 through 10/31. As long as you charge
$1500+ for each of those five months, you pocket the piddly regular
bonus plus $250. I don't know if I can do it, as I've already bought my
"toys" for the year. ;-)
Jerry Boyle
"Margaret" <twok...@gmailx.invalid> wrote in message
Although not a bad *idea* I'm not sure it will work if the payment is made
before the date of the statement.
I almost always pay my current balance, rather than my statement balance,
when I get my monthly statement. This almost always covers my minimum due
for my next statement. The one time my payment was late (by 1 day) Citi
charged me both interest on the unpaid balance and a penalty for missing the
minimum payment. I protested only the latter but Citi immediately offered to
remove both charges. This was about 10 years ago so I'm pretty sure things
have changed for the worse.
Jerry
Margaret
>
> "Margaret" <twok...@gmailx.invalid> wrote in message
>
> Although not a bad *idea* I'm not sure it will work if the payment is
> made before the date of the statement.
>
> I almost always pay my current balance, rather than my statement
> balance, when I get my monthly statement. This almost always covers my
> minimum due for my next statement. The one time my payment was late (by
> 1 day) Citi charged me both interest on the unpaid balance and a penalty
> for missing the minimum payment. I protested only the latter but Citi
> immediately offered to remove both charges. This was about 10 years ago
> so I'm pretty sure things have changed for the worse.
>
> Jerry
I've been paying the statement balance, but paying the current balance
is an even better idea. Thx! I had an experience same as yours quite
some years ago. It has clearly changed for the worse, where customers
are not trusted, even those of us with otherwise perfect payment and
credit histories.
We'll see about an interest charge. I'd asked about that, as IIRC
interest charges appear on the next statement, not the current one. I
was told any interest charge would have appeared on the current
statement. It's been so long since I've paid less than the statement
balance, I don't recall exactly.
Jerry Boyle
"Margaret" <twok...@gmailx.invalid> wrote in message
As is too often the case with me I didn't state my point very clearly. But
thanks anyway for the undeserved credit.
I wasn't recommending my method - I was just giving evidence that Andrew's
suggestion of a small automated payment in the middle of a payment month may
not count toward the minimum due payment on your next statement (even if it
covers purchases during that statement period). Still, his method is more
likely than mine to avoid the minimum due penalty. The problem with both
methods may be making the payment too soon. Perhaps both methods will work
now, but my method definitely did *not* work 10 years ago with Citi.
A method that definitely will work is to make or automatically schedule a
small extra payment at the beginning of the payment *period*, i.e. between
the date of the statement and its payment due date (usually a 2 or 3 week
period). This way you definitely avoid the minimum due penalty if either
this or your regularly scheduled payment goes through. Even here there's a
chance that your extra payment will be rejected if it exceeds your current
balance and you may incur a penalty for the rejected payment. These people
have gone out of their way to maximize their chance to nail you no matter
what you do :-(
What I do, and I don't necessarily recommend it for others, is to pay my
balance with an electronic check ASAP after the statement date. This gives
me plenty of time to contact them if the payment doesn't show up in Quicken.
Jerry
P.S. Congratulations on a most interesting OT post and thanks for fighting
this fight for all of us.
Notan
I've never seen Citi's Virtual Account Number idea (you generate a
number, on the fly, that's linked to your real number, and can only
be used once) done by anyone else.
For online transactions, it's the only way to go.
Andrew
By the way, it's an automatic PUSH transaction so I don't have to do
anything. I set it up through Checkfree as mentioned. I also have a "bill
payment" in Q to automatically enter it into my register (tied to the CF
account) and the credit card account too.
Margaret - I've never seen / heard you so mad. Hope you can relax and get
over this! Have a good LONG Memorial Day weekend!!
Andrew
the initial billing cycle (f you happen to miss it), it HAS to hit the
"next" one, since it's on the same day. As long as it's regular, it should
take effect each month. I haven't seen it not do that yet.
B
seen anything about it and I don't see it mentioned on their website.
Shucks.
B
first. I've found that Discover has implemented several online features
and enhancements before the other companies.
I've had a hard time finding the virtual account number feature for my
Citi Mastercard. Discover makes it easy, so that is what I always use.
Margaret
> By the way, it's an automatic PUSH transaction so I don't have to do
> anything. I set it up through Checkfree as mentioned. I also have a "bill
> payment" in Q to automatically enter it into my register (tied to the CF
> account) and the credit card account too.
>
> Margaret - I've never seen / heard you so mad. Hope you can relax and get
> over this! Have a good LONG Memorial Day weekend!!
Thanks Andrew. I do have a question about Checkfree, if you don't mind.
:-)
The company that provides my water/sewage service doesn't offer online
bill presentment. They have an agreement with Checkfree for that, so I
go to a special Checkfree site to see my monthly bill. To pay my bill,
however, I've set up an arrangement whereby the company charges my
monthly payment to a credit card. As the payment amount is the same
every month, this works fine until I occasionally find the need to
change the card that gets billed. To change the card, I have to
complete and mail a paper form. It's not a biggie, but it's the only
payment arrangement I can't easily change online.
IIRC, I can arrange a recurring monthly debit from my checking account
via Checkfree, but if I choose to pay by credit card, I have to schedule
each payment each month. Is this correct, or am I remembering
incorrectly? In any case, I think I'm going to stop using my Fidelity
SmartCash account, as it adds another layer of complexity to my
bill-paying system, and SmartCash no longer pays enough interest to make
it worth the effort.
My credit union has recently upgraded their bill payment system, and I
spent some time today investigating it. It's free, and although I can't
set recurring payments, it does everything else I need it to do. Since
you mentioned using Checkfree, I thought I'd ask. I do like charging
everything I can to my credit cards, as it boosts my rewards, and I only
have to schedule a very few payments each month. :-)
Yes, I was pretty steamed over this returned check fee removal debacle.
Although I'm capable of getting really mad, I don't remember the last
time I was so mad.... I know I'm a bit stressed right now, as I'm in
the middle of having some major work done on my home. The project is
dragging into its third week, and I'm feeling rather frazzled. Anyway,
I'm feeling much less harried today, so I think the long weekend will do
me good! :-)
I hope you have a good weekend too, Andrew!
Margaret
> I don't think Discover has offered that bonus to everyone. I haven't
> seen anything about it and I don't see it mentioned on their website.
> Shucks.
I've had an account with Discover since the mid '80s, and I used to use
that card almost exclusively. When Chase and Citi began offering better
rewards, I quit using my Discover card. Perhaps they're trying to reel
in existing customers who've gone dormant.
It's a pretty good offer IMNSHO, but as I said, I'm not sure I can
charge $1500 for each of the next five months. I've signed up and have
switched all my automatic charges to Discover, so I'm going to try! ;-)
Robert Neville
So, Citi was asking you to prove that Citi didn't do something? As proving a
negative is impossible, that's pretty amazing. I would have turned the question
around and asked them to provide evidence they attempted the transaction.
>And I'm not a him. Did you even *read* my post?
'OP' or Orignial Poster is a gender neutral term. The use of "his" later in the
para was an oversight.
Margaret
>
> I've had a hard time finding the virtual account number feature for my
> Citi Mastercard. Discover makes it easy, so that is what I always use.
I've used virtual account numbers with my Citi Mastercard, but Citi kind
of buries that feature on their web site. I recall having to dig for it
last time I used it. I don't think it was all that easy to use, either.
But I do believe Discover offered virtual nums first.
Notan
There are 2 VAN flavors: One that's launched from the website and one
that's available as a downloaded standalone.
I've chose to use the standalone, which I find quicker to use when
making purchases over the phone.
Notan
There are 2 VAN flavors: One that's launched from the website and one
that's available as a downloaded standalone.
I've chosen to use the standalone, which I find quicker to use when
Margaret
> So, Citi was asking you to prove that Citi didn't do something? As proving a
> negative is impossible, that's pretty amazing. I would have turned the question
> around and asked them to provide evidence they attempted the transaction.
Yep. Actually I did turn the question around, and of course each rep
played dumb, like what they were requiring wasn't absurd. I felt like I
was beating my head on a wall. As it was Citi who applied the charge
and held the power to remove it, all I could do in the end was comply.
Fortunately the senior supervisor accepted a conference call with
Fidelity. Of course it took almost an hour for that call alone. All
for $39, but more-so the principle. I can only imagine what trying to
hang onto that $39 cost both Citi and Fidelity in employee hours. That
they treat any cardholder this way, let alone ones with consistently
perfect payment histories, is why I really don't want to do business
with Citi anymore. I'm not sure they're any different than their
competition though.
>> And I'm not a him. Did you even *read* my post?
>
> 'OP' or Orignial Poster is a gender neutral term. The use of "his" later in the
> para was an oversight.
It was the "his" I objected to, not the OP, which I'm aware is a gender
neutral term. :-)
Margaret
Jerry Boyle wrote:
>
> P.S. Congratulations on a most interesting OT post and thanks for
> fighting this fight for all of us.
Thanks and you're welcome. The stress of the fight probably shortened
my life, but it was worth it. ;-)
Han
news:htkbrt$qiq$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
Thanks for the pointer. I have no such offer on the Discovercard
website for my account, so I sent customer service a request ...
David H. Lipman
>> B wrote:
>> Regards,
>> Margaret
I almost exclusively use Discover and no offer was shown to me either.
--
Dave
http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
Multi-AV - http://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/dl/35905.asp
Margaret
> From: "Han"<nob...@nospam.not>
>
> | Thanks for the pointer. I have no such offer on the Discovercard
> | website for my account, so I sent customer service a request ...
>
>
> I almost exclusively use Discover and no offer was shown to me either.
Interesting. I received Discover via a letter in the mail, no mention of
it even on my account homepage. To sign up, I had to actually call.
Normally I can sign up online. So perhaps it *is* a directed offer. I
usually watch everyone else get these.... I hope you both manage to get
Discover to sign you up! :-)
Jerry Boyle
"Andrew" <and...@jkl.com> wrote in message
news:4bfda419$0$5016$607e...@cv.net...
> The payment is made on the same date each month; I think once you get past
> the initial billing cycle (f you happen to miss it), it HAS to hit the
> "next" one, since it's on the same day. As long as it's regular, it
> should take effect each month. I haven't seen it not do that yet.
The issue I was considering was whether or not your payment fulfills the
Minimum Due Payment requirement for the next billing cycle. If it does and
your regular payment is late, you avoid the MDP penalty; if it doesn't, you
don't. I claim the latter.
There's an easy way to tell just by looking at your next statement. If the
MDP shown *on that statement* is not zero I claim that you must make (or
have already made) a payment of at least that amount *on or after that
statement date* and *before the payment due date* to avoid the penalty. You
may be able, as I was, to state your case and get them to remove the charge
but I doubt that they are legally obliged to do so.
Prove me wrong - this is one of those cases where I hope I *am* wrong.
Jerry
Jerry Boyle
"Jerry Boyle" <jerry...@att.net> wrote in message
news:htmekl$8ue$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
OK, Andrew, I see the problem. I didn't know what you meant when you said
you made your extra payment "in the middle of my
payment month." You *are* talking about the time between the closing date of
a statement and its payment due date and for you that period *is* an entire
month (or just a couple of days less). So of course you are OK as is anyone
with almost a full month payment period.
When I had my squabble with Citi 10 years ago that period was not a month -
it was only 12 days. That left about an 18-day period during which payments
were too late for the MDP for the prior statement and too early for the MDP
for the next statement.
Just within the past year Chase VISA stretched my payment period from 21 to
28 days but I thought it was still the 14 days it was a few years ago. Since
I pay my balance online as soon as I get my statement I (obviously!) pay no
attention to this matter.
About now I'm feeling like a fool. Will you forgive my stupidity if I
promise to put on my dunce cap and sit in the corner for an hour?
Jerry
Andrew
Jerry - I'm fine. As to your statement, " Since
I pay my balance online as soon as I get my statement I (obviously!) pay no
attention to this matter.", I too try to pay and schedule the 'real' payment
a few days earlier, but just in case I don't, I like having the backup
payment MPD already posted.
FWIW, I just received a note from Citi yesterday telling me they are jacking
up my interest to 23.99%. Obviously, I know this has happened to a lot of
folks. Hopefully, since I pay the balance off in full each month, it doesn't
really affect me.
Notan
I, too, fully pay the balance each month, so I tend not to read the
notices about rate hikes.
I should probably start, as one day they're gonna slip something in
that *will* affect me.
With rates around 24%, at least for Citi, is there any question as
to why folks are having financial troubles? Wasn't the Fed supposed
to step in and help?
Margaret
> I, too, fully pay the balance each month, so I tend not to read the
> notices about rate hikes.
>
> I should probably start, as one day they're gonna slip something in
> that *will* affect me.
>
> With rates around 24%, at least for Citi, is there any question as
> to why folks are having financial troubles? Wasn't the Fed supposed
> to step in and help?
Same here. I guess I should start. If my payment got screwed up as it
did this past month, those high interest charges would really hurt.
While my Citi Dividend MC is at 21.99%, my Citi Forward VISA is only
~11.49%. IIRC, Discover's rates are quite high, but my Chase VISA is
only around 13%. 20+% is ridiculous IMNSHO. Some changes were made to
improve the situation for credit card users, but apparently they didn't
cap interest rates. Or if they did, the cap is too high.
Eric J. Holtman
news:g-mdnRQGGvZqYGLW...@giganews.com:
>
> With rates around 24%, at least for Citi, is there any question as
> to why folks are having financial troubles? Wasn't the Fed supposed
> to step in and help?
They are stepping in to help. They're loaning Citi
money at 0% so Citi can lend to you at 24%.
That's helping Citi an awful lot.
Probably not what you meant though.
Andrew
It's late, so I won't go into a long post, but what I think happened was
indeed the new credit card laws DID kick in, and the CC companies can no
longer get the benefit of revenue streams from the same source that they had
before. So now, to make the $, they have to stick it to their better
customers....either through higher interest rates, higher annual fees (the
days of 'free' credit cards are numbered), or a increase the EVERYONE's
interest rate. Personally, I do vote for the latter, since I can avoid that
one more so than the other two.
Andrew
I meant in that sentence when I said the same thing twice to say "either
through reduction in programs such as incentive programs such as frequent
mileage or hotels,
higher annual fees (the days of 'free' credit cards are numbered), or a
increase the EVERYONE's interest rate.". Told you it was late (!).
Notan
Years ago, while going through one of many "energy crisis" times in
California, San Diego Gas and Electric encouraged users to cut back
on their energy use. The people complied, so when revenue dropped, SDG&E
jacked up prices.
One way or the other, it's always the little guy that takes the hit.