Can Somebody Please Advise Help or Sell ?
Ritchie Valens
Hi,
I just recently bought a 2nd hand PC.
The Motherboard is an MS - 7025 Ver 1
K89 NE02
The problem I have is that the Onboard Video Cgip Fan has died, and
looks like it has melted slightly.
Does anybody know of a good UK Supplier, to sell me a fan.
or Failing that does anybody have a spare FAN they would be willing to
sell me?
Ideally someone in the Hertfordshire UK Area.
This is the Motherboard, and the Fan is the one near the bottom Right
of the picture
User Manual -
http://www.fixya.com/support/p298033-msi_k8n_neo2_platinum_ms7025_motherboard/manual-15394
Photograph -
The Gold Fan on the Left of the Photo.
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/2276/dscf5662.jpg
Thanks in Advance
Life is Good !!!
Ritchie Valens
I mean a The Motherboard is an MS - 7025 Ver 1
K8N NE02
NOT as Below I typed a mistake
The Motherboard is an MS - 7025 Ver 1
K89 NE02
Thanks
Life is Good !!!
Paul
There is also a picture here.
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130468
The chipset is nForce3 Ultra (S939).
When selecting a new cooler, you have to measure the spacing from center
to center of the push pins. Also, check that when the cooler is mounted,
it doesn't bump into anything else in the computer. They use low profile
coolers, so the add-in cards don't bump into the cooler, but that is not
your only option. But if you're not adding any cards to the computer, near
where that cooler is located, you could use a taller one.
The best performing coolers, use heat pipes. They dissipate the heat
better. The pipe is virtually a perfect conductor, due to the phase
change property utilized. In your case, this might not extend far enough
towards the CPU cooling fan, to collect some "side spill" air from the fan,
so no additional fan was needed. In addition, the diagonal push pin scheme on
your chipset, may not make it that easy to clamp down this cooler. Still,
in terms of thermal properties, these are pretty good.
I like this site, purely as a reference for what is for sale. For example,
I can see the Akasa cooler at the top of this page, on Dabs, but it isn't
the most powerful cooler going. And if you're going to fix this, you only
want to fix it once, not over and over again.
The little fans fail because:
1) Sleeve bearings.
2) High rotational speed (5000-7000RPM)
3) If the heatsink runs hot, the fan bearing is heated up, which leads
to a faster failure. At the best of times, a fan like that will last
for about 3 years. They make fans with a ceramic bearing (Ceradyne),
but the whining noise from those fans, will drive you to distraction.
If I was replacing it, I'd like a larger passive cooler, along the
lines of the Thermalright, where some of the air coming from the CPU fan,
happens to hit the chipset heatsink. But there are enough examples on
the frozencpu web page, to give you some ideas what to watch for. The
thing is, multiple companies have been making "Xerox copies" of some
of the best designs, so you may have more products available in Europe,
that I don't see over here.
At least one of the motherboard companies, has a "spare parts store", but
it doesn't sell world wide. And this cooler, due to the diagonal location
of your plastic push pins, won't be a very good fit. It would have to be
turned at an angle, if it would fit at all.
http://us.estore.asus.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1767
The kind of cooler required, depends on the heat level (TDP) of the chipset.
At one time, a chipset dissipated 2 watts, and virtually anything could be
used as a cooler. Now, a Northbridge can burn up to 20 watts or so, and
a cheesy cooler just isn't enough. Certainly, a passive aluminum heatsink
without heatpipes, wouldn't be enough for a 20 watt chip. I don't know
what the power level of Nforce3 Ultra is, but it isn't 2 watts. It's going
to be more than that. Probably mid range. And a cooler like this would
not be enough (fanless). The theta_R of this might be 10C/W and a 10W
chip would end up running 100C hotter than ambient (say 135C) and the
motherboard would crash. Some of the fan cooled Northbridge coolers, have
a theta_R of as low as 1 C/W, and a 10W chip then has a 10C rise over
ambient. Theta_R is seldom stated, because if it was, you could use it
while shopping :-(
http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/35-118-214-S02?$S640W$
Paul
Ritchie Valens
Hi Paul,
Thanks for all the info.
There is a lot to read, and I appreciate it.
I ended up getting a fan and heatskink from a company called Novotech
in Portsmouth UK.
I ended up paying £11.00 including next day shipping.
The contact at Novotech was very hepfull, and with the kit you get 2
different heatsinks..
I will let you know how it works out.
Regards
Life is Good !!!
Paul
> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for all the info.
>
> There is a lot to read, and I appreciate it.
>
> I ended up getting a fan and heatskink from a company called Novotech
> in Portsmouth UK.
>
> I ended up paying £11.00 including next day shipping.
>
> The contact at Novotech was very hepfull, and with the kit you get 2
> different heatsinks..
>
>
> I will let you know how it works out.
>
> Regards
OK.
The best you can do, is hope the motherboard has a thermal readout for
the Northbridge, so you can monitor the temperature. If it was my motherboard,
I'd probably redo the cooling scheme, if the thing was running more than
about 65C (hot enough to burn you).
On one computer project here, I used a portable digital thermometer and
jammed it into the fins on a Northbridge cooler, to check the temperature.
When I did a test of that system, the temperature readout hit 75C and
I shut off the computer at that point. So even if the motherboard is
not equipped with a diode measurement capability coming from inside
that chip, there are other, cruder ways to determine how well your
solution is working. I happened to own the digital thermometer kit
(with the thermistor mounted on Kapton film), so it was convenient to
use, to monitor how well it was working. (It's one of those thermal
readouts, that fits in a 5.25" disk opening on the computer.)
The Northbridge chip may be rated to work up to 100C, but in some cases,
when the memory interface is on that chip, you may get enough memory
errors, to wish it ran cooler. Which is why I might aim for no more
than 65C.
*******
This cooler on the Novotech site, is no worse than what you've got currently.
My point in the previous post was, if a cooler like this runs relatively hot,
it can affect the lifespan of the fan. Sleeve bearing fans can lose their
lubrication pretty easily (exception being some of the nicer designs which
are sealed). They don't usually use very good fans on products like this.
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/prods/components/cooling/chipsetcoolers/AK-VCX-01.html
The center to center spacing is 59mm, which you can check now with a ruler.
Some Northbridge coolers (Zalman), come with movable arms, which cover a
range of center to center spacings, so the heatsink can be adjusted to fit.
(I don't know if the manual they list, is actually for that product.)
http://www.akasa.com.tw/download/manual/AK-VCX-01_installation.pdf
One other issue I didn't mention, is removing the push pins. If you use a
pair of pliers to squeeze the pins from the solder side of the motherboard,
the pliers have a tendency to slip off. An alternative is to cut the pin,
but you can still slip off and damage something. It helps if the product
you bought, comes with new pins. In some cases, if the pins have been
removed several times, they no longer work properly.
If a tool slips while you're working on a motherboard, you can hit a
surface mount component and snap the solder joint. The component goes
flying and you can never find it again. So just a warning before getting
in there, to do the job. You're probably going to need to pull the
motherboard out of the case, to give you the ability to assess the
situation well. You may be able to cut the thing off from the top side,
and do the job without pulling the motherboard, but I'd want to know if there
were any washers or other stuff on the bottom of the thing.
I see another one on the Akasa site, which is held onto the chip with
thermal tape. This one doesn't have any push pins. With an approach like
this, you can't substitute thermal paste for an interface material, because
the tape functions as the mechanical support. The thermal engineer at work
specified, that the cooler can't weigh more than 50 grams, if you use this
tape approach.
At least the one with the push pin holes, as long as the holes line up
with your motherboard, the push pins will keep it from falling off.
And if it fits well that way, you also have the option of using
thermal paste (assuming the chip underneath will allow it). If the
chip underneath has small resistors or capacitors mounted on the
lid, then just use the thermal tape provided with your new cooler.
Thermal paste has better heat conduction than tape does, but if the
cooler itself doesn't have a low enough theta_R in the first place,
it's kinda pointless to worry about tape versus paste.
Paul
Ritchie Valens
Paul,
I recieved the Fan today from Novotech, and the fan is too high up, so
the card dosnt fit in with the new fan and heatsink.
With the kit you get 2 thin heatsinks also.
Do you think maybe putting one of those heatsinks in would do the job?
I dont want to start chipping away at the video card or heatsinks, as
I dont have the correct tools.
The card I have is an MSI NX6800GT, and it dosnt fit my old AGP slot,
so I am not sure what type of AGP card it is?
What would you advise?
Regards
Life is Good !!!
Paul
>
> Paul,
>
>
> I recieved the Fan today from Novotech, and the fan is too high up, so
> the card dosnt fit in with the new fan and heatsink.
>
> With the kit you get 2 thin heatsinks also.
>
> Do you think maybe putting one of those heatsinks in would do the job?
>
> I dont want to start chipping away at the video card or heatsinks, as
> I dont have the correct tools.
>
> The card I have is an MSI NX6800GT, and it dosnt fit my old AGP slot,
>
> so I am not sure what type of AGP card it is?
>
> What would you advise?
>
> Regards
Be aware, that a bare heatsink, without a fan, is three times worse at
heat removal, than a heatsink with a fan. So you're taking a penalty
when removing a fan. The chipset could easily overheat, without fan
cooling.
Fans come in various heights. Perhaps a chipset cooler is 10mm. But
there are taller fans. "Standard" fans start at 25mm, and come in
40mm square, up to 120mm square or larger. Those are used for things
like case cooling. I have one case fan which is 37.5mm thick, and
those aren't as common (or necessary).
The chipset cooler fans, barely move any air at all. Until they
hit very high RPMs, and then the fan just doesn't last as long.
You could skim through the options here, and see if there is
something that would fit.
*******
This one is 12mm high. This solves your height problem. Being made
of copper, it also has a better heat spreading angle than aluminum.
(But better still, is heat pipe technology.)
http://www.overclock.co.uk/product/Enzotech-SLF-1-Chipset-Cooler_6451.html
http://www.enzotechnology.com/slf_1.htm
"hole to hole distance 54.6mm and 59mm"
Adda 35mm fan, 8000 RPM
Noise: 28 dB(A)
If you read the feedback section here, the Enzotech may need a few
mods, depending on the motherboard design. I've had a case in the
past, where I had to spend 30 minutes with a file in my shop,
reshaping a heatsink to fit.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835708006
*******
With this one, you can rotate it 180 degrees. The heatsink may
block the video card slot, when turned one way. The IFX_SLI version
has an L-shaped heatpipe, to push the heatsink to one side. The
idea being, to try to avoid blocking the video card slot.
http://www.overclock.co.uk/product/Thermalright-HR-05-SLI-IFX-Chipset-Cooler_7972.html
http://www.thermalright.com/products/index.php?act=data&keyword=hr-05&id=106
Install manual. The sink weighs 125g and they use screws for mounting. The
"cushion padding" might otherwise be known as a shim, and typically is used
when a chip has a bare silicon die, and the shim helps prevent the heatsink
from rocking side to side, while you're installing it. If the Northbridge
had a total flat surface on it, then the "cushion padding" may not be needed
and would just get in the way of good thermal contact. (On the old Athlon
processors, they use "bumper pads" to do the same job as a shim.)
http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/download_images/booklet/hr05_ifx_sli/part1.pdf
The clip accommodates a range of hole spacings.
I was hoping there would be dimensions in that document, to be able to tell
you how much the "L" shaped heatpipe, is going to move the heatsink out of
the way for you. It looks to have a relatively short span, so some slot on
your motherboard is still likely to be blocked. Just not the video card slot.
*******
High performance video cards, come with slot types like AGP and
PCI Express x16. They don't fit in the same slot, and you should be
able to tell it's the wrong type, right away.
AGP is the older technology, and good ones are getting harder and harder
to find. The AGP card you buy new at retail today, is "bridged". ATI still
makes the cards with bridged designs, and Nvidia is out of that business.
ATI's bridge is called Rialto, and converts a modern PCI Express GPU chip,
to work in an AGP slot.
(Picture of an HD 4670 AGP, with the Rialto surrounded by pink protective material $119
Always read the reviews, regarding availability of *working* drivers. Note the
connector design with gold pins, and compare that to your slot.)
http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/14-161-337-Z04?$S640W$
A better alternative, is to look for a used card, one which is "native"
AGP, as the state of driver development for those can be better.
Nvidia had a bridge chip called HSI, which may have been manufactured at
a fab at IBM. They seemed to be unable to get more of those at some
point - I don't know if it was a pure business decision to just stop
making AGP, or the move was precipitated by IBM not being able to make
any more HSI. I had a project at work, that stopped production, because
the chip maker, ripped up the fab and replaced it with a different tech,
and our chips could no longer be made. And it would have cost millions more,
for us to respin them in a shrunk geometry tech. That's how chips go out
of production, for cost reasons - too expensive to fix.
Paul
Ritchie Valens
Paul,
I have just finished installing the heatsink with FAN.
Basically the heatsink has Vanes, which I had to cut down, to half the
height.
1. So all of the vanes are a lot lower, being aluminium it was easy to
do.
2. I had to also skim the edge of the fan to lower it
3. Also I had to cut some plastic off the blds of the fan.
Not ideal, but I monitored the NB NorthBridge Fan in Bios
Fan was running at 5625 RPM.
Ran for 45 mins, and the heatsink is cool to the touch.
Regards
Life is Good !!!
Paul
>
> Paul,
>
>
> Basically the heatsink has Vanes, which I had to cut down, to half the
> height.
>
> 1. So all of the vanes are a lot lower, being aluminium it was easy to
> do.
>
> 2. I had to also skim the edge of the fan to lower it
>
> 3. Also I had to cut some plastic off the blds of the fan.
>
> Not ideal, but I monitored the NB NorthBridge Fan in Bios
>
> Fan was running at 5625 RPM.
>
>
> Ran for 45 mins, and the heatsink is cool to the touch.
>
Good work.
Did the heatsink come with tape on it, and is the tape making
a good contact between chip and heatsink ?
Sometimes, a heatsink is cool to the touch, because no heat
is flowing into it from the chip. Either a thermal tape
or thermal paste, is needed to make a good thermal path from
the chip to the heatsink. If you've done that part OK, then
congratulations and enjoy your new computer.
They do make something called "thermal epoxy", which can be
used to fasten a heatsink to the surface of a chip, but that
stuff is *permanent*. One person tried to pull the heatsink off
a chip which was held in place with thermal epoxy, and it
ripped the top off the chip, ruining it. Things like thermal tape,
can be a bit stubborn to get off. Thermal paste can too, if it
isn't heated gently before a removal attempt.
Paul
Ritchie Valens
Paul,
I didnt add tape, but heatsink compound
If in the future the fan goes wrong, I didnt want to damage the chip.
I will keep an eye on it
Is there anyway of monitoring the temp of the NB Chip,
I dont have a thermocouple, I dont want to think the chip is cold,
when infact as you correctly said the heatsink isnt touching the chip.
Is there anyway of knowing if its making contact?
Regards
Life is Good !!!
Paul
> Paul,
>
>
> If in the future the fan goes wrong, I didnt want to damage the chip.
>
> I will keep an eye on it
> Is there anyway of monitoring the temp of the NB Chip,
>
> I dont have a thermocouple, I dont want to think the chip is cold,
> when infact as you correctly said the heatsink isnt touching the chip.
>
> Is there anyway of knowing if its making contact?
>
>
> Regards
Visual inspection from the side, is about all you can do.
If you use paste, you check for a little bit oozing out the
side of the joint between the two surfaces.
When I do a heatsink, I apply a rice grain of paste, squash
the two surfaces together (to simulate what assembly will be like),
then take it apart and see how large a disc of paste that makes.
Then, when it comes time for the final assembly (insert push pins
etc), I increase the size of the rice grain in proportion to the
area of coverage I got on the first attempt. I try to err a bit
on the generous side, so the edge of the joint is wetted with
paste, but without using so much, that it drips on stuff. If you
don't see paste on the edge, a portion of the joint could be "dry".
Paul
Ritchie Valens
Paul,
I have just taken the fan off, as its only 4 screws
I applied a small film of heatsink compound, so I am going to power on
the pc now, and feel if the heatsink gets any temp on it.
My spelling mistake earlier was that I slightly cut off the fan
blades, as they were hitting the video card.
Are you in the UK or US?
I am in the Uk
I am online now for the next 8 hours.
Regards
Life is Good !!!
Ritchie Valens
Paul,
What I meant was earlier I applied a small film of heatsink compound.
I am monitoring the Heatsink now, and its getting warm,
( Which is great news )
So thanks to your comment, it got me thinking.
Regards
On Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:13:26 +0100, Ritchie Valens <m...@here.com>
wrote:
Life is Good !!!
Ritchie Valens
Paul,
I have uploaded the photos you might find interesting
The Cut Away Akasa Heatsink
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/Rectify2003/heatsink.jpg
The Cut Away Akasa Fan
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/Rectify2003/Akasa-Fan.jpg
Regards
On Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:01:23 -0400, Paul <nos...@needed.com> wrote:
Life is Good !!!
Paul
>
> Paul,
>
> The Cut Away Akasa Heatsink
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/Rectify2003/heatsink.jpg
>
> The Cut Away Akasa Fan
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/Rectify2003/Akasa-Fan.jpg
>
> Regards
The only problem with chopping down the heatsink, is making the
air channel too squat. It increases the backpressure that must be
driven by the fan, reducing cooling ability. That's why it isn't really
good to make too-short heatsink assemblies - they don't get enough
airflow.
What matters is the results. If your Northbridge is staying
cool, then the details don't matter. If your Northbridge is too
hot, you'll need to make a second attempt at a solution. I don't
really know the TDP power level of your chip, so I have no feeling
for how important these details are. The closer to a 2 watt chip,
the less the cooling solution matters.
I tried searching for details on your motherboard sensors, but I'm not
having much luck. You could try Speedfan from almico.com as a utility
to read out the sensors while in Windows. Alternately, the motherboard
CD may have a utility on it. See if you can spot something there, that
correlates with what is going on. Another older (unsupported) program was
MBM5 (motherboard monitor) but the comments say it had to be set up
manually for your motherboard, and who knows where you'd find the details
for doing that. The livewiredev web site has been gone for years now,
and that is where MBM5 used to be developed. The manufacturer utility
isn't always as good as it could be, which is why I feel you could look
for some other alternatives to try. The purpose of trying another
utility, is to see if there are three sensor channels for temp, and
not just two. If it had CPU, NB, case, you'd be in a better position
to judge how well your cooling attempt was working. The NB one, would be
a measure of the chipset temp. If the chip has a diode in it, the hardware
monitor chip can read either diodes or thermistors (there is a register
to set the measurement mode, to work with either kind of sensor). The mode
must be set correctly, to get meaningful temps. If you see a sensor that
reads "127C", it might just be a register railed at maxval.
Paul
Ritchie Valens
Paul,
Thanks for you amazing help.
I have just installed Speedfan, and I will monitor it, and let you
know how I get on.
Chat in a bit
Regards
Life is Good !!!