Can't see full 3 TB of new Seagate hard drive

[Rhino]

As per the subject line, neither Windows nor Seagate Disk Wizard can see the
full 3 TB of my new 3 TB SATA hard drive. In fact, they can only see 746.50
GB.

I completely my backups and upgraded my OS to XP Pro with SP3 yesterday. I
found a section on the Seagate website that is dedicated to explaining how
to make the space beyond 2 TB visible in Windows computers. I clicked the
link for how to make the full space visible in XP with SP3 and watched the
video several times.

I downloaded the latest version of Disk Wizard just yesterday.
Unfortunately, it is noticeably different than the version in the video and
I can't find any way to do the same things in the new version as the video
shows in the old version. I can't see any old versions of Disk Wizard on the
Seagate site either.

Has anyone here installed a 3 TB Seagate drive on an XP SP3 system recently
enough to guide me on how to do the disk setup with this _new_ version of
Disk Wizard? Or can someone point me to a version of Disk Wizard that is
closer to the version shown in the video?

I've got the ASUS-M3A motherboard. It supports SATA II and the new drive is
a SATA III. I've been told that SATA III is backwards compatible to SATA II
and that I probably don't need the add-in card that the drive's box mentions
_might_ be necessary. Can anyone confirm that?

I didn't get any such add-in card with my drive and I didn't buy one
separately but it's possible the M3A already has this card in it. (I asked a
friend to build the computer for me based on some rather vague specs and he
never told me exactly what he put in this machine.)

--
Rhino

[Paul]

There are two ways to do disks.

You can use traditional MBR (2.2TB limited by 32 bit sector numbering).

Or prepare with GPT partitioning. You need GPT.

The problem with GPT as a means of preparation, is not many OSes can boot
from a GPT disk. If your new disk is "data-only", then GPT is the answer.
You can test with GPT, and at least prove you can see the entire disk,
then flatten and do something else if you don't like it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table

"The MBR partition table restricts partition sizes to a maximum of 2.19 terabytes"

If an OS had native support for 4K sectors, and the drive exposed the
native 4K sectors, then the limit would no longer be 2.2TB. But I
imagine that wouldn't be that easy to arrange, and even if you set
things up that way, booting some other OS could trash it. You have
to be careful when mixing stuff like that.

GPT has a protective MBR installed, to help prevent damage from
MBR based OSes.

*******

Disks have traditionally had all sorts of artificial capacity limits.
The last one was >137GB support on IDE interfaces. The other day,
I got caught, when I took a Firewire IDE enclosure from the junk
pile, put a 160GB IDE disk in it, started it up, and had the partition
corrupted by the 137GB limit on the Firewire chip. I never would
have suspected the enclosure had a limit, until I discovered it
the hard way :-( And even the recommended firmware flash, didn't
fix it.

HTH,
Paul

[Rhino]

>
> There are two ways to do disks.
>
> You can use traditional MBR (2.2TB limited by 32 bit sector numbering).
>
> Or prepare with GPT partitioning. You need GPT.
>

Are you saying that the techniques that Seagate claims will work for Windows
XP SP3, involving Disk Wizard, don't actually work at all? I'm not doubting
your words as you've demonstrated really good knowledge of these issues in
previous posts but I'm just a little stunned that Seagate could get away
with telling people on their website that their Disk Wizard approach will do
the job if it isn't true. I've even seen reviews of their large drives
claiming that Disk Wizard will do the job. Wouldn't that leave them open to
lawsuits or charges of consumer fraud that would give Seagate a very black
eye, something they surely wouldn't want?

> The problem with GPT as a means of preparation, is not many OSes can boot
> from a GPT disk. If your new disk is "data-only", then GPT is the answer.

This drive will be "data-only"; I have no need at all to boot from it.

> You can test with GPT, and at least prove you can see the entire disk,
> then flatten and do something else if you don't like it.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table
>
> "The MBR partition table restricts partition sizes to a maximum of 2.19
> terabytes"
>
> If an OS had native support for 4K sectors, and the drive exposed the
> native 4K sectors, then the limit would no longer be 2.2TB. But I
> imagine that wouldn't be that easy to arrange, and even if you set
> things up that way, booting some other OS could trash it. You have
> to be careful when mixing stuff like that.
>
> GPT has a protective MBR installed, to help prevent damage from
> MBR based OSes.
>

Something I'm not seeing in the article is how do I set up the drive with
GPT? I assume I need some kind of program to set up the drive for GPT.
Where do I find this program?

Hmm, I just had a look at the references in the Wikipedia article and
followed the link to the Windows and GPT FAQ. It says the article applies
only to Windows XP x64 edition.

I'm running 32-bit Windows XP SP3. According to the Wikipedia article, it
has "no native support on this architecture and version". Does this mean
that GPT is not an option for me after all??

This question in the Q&A suggests that I am out of luck:
Q.Can the 32-bit version of Windows XP read, write, and boot from GPT disks?
A.No. The 32-bit version will see only the Protective MBR. The EE partition
will not be mounted or otherwise exposed to application software.

Unless I'm misreading this, I'll need to upgrade the OS, at least to XP 64
bit, if I want to see all of this drive.

Or make it MBR and be limited to 2.2 TB. That's starting to look like a less
unattractive option overall if I have to pay for an OS upgrade.....

> *******
>
> Disks have traditionally had all sorts of artificial capacity limits.
> The last one was >137GB support on IDE interfaces. The other day,
> I got caught, when I took a Firewire IDE enclosure from the junk
> pile, put a 160GB IDE disk in it, started it up, and had the partition
> corrupted by the 137GB limit on the Firewire chip. I never would
> have suspected the enclosure had a limit, until I discovered it
> the hard way :-( And even the recommended firmware flash, didn't
> fix it.
>

Yeah, I can remember other such limits over the years. I don't remember the
numbers but wasn't there a fairly low limit, like 2 GB or even several
hundred MB on drives when 800 MB or 10 GB were considered incomprehensibly
huge?

--
Rhino

[Paul]

Hmmm. Tried a search on the Seagate site, and found this.

"Support for Disk Drives Beyond 2.2 TeraBytes (TB) and 4K Advanced Format Sectors [218619]"

http://seagate.custkb.com/seagate/crm/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=218619&NewLang=en&Hilite=gpt

"Most legacy systems built before 2011 have a traditional PC BIOS. This type of
BIOS uses a Master Boot Record (MBR). The MBR Partitions can define a disk drive
capacity up to 2.2TB. Windows operating systems that boot from an MBR are therefore
limited to 2.2TB per MBR.

A 3TB disk drive in a legacy BIOS and Window system will need a DiscWizard device driver
to access the full capacity of a 3TB disk drive. Two partitions will be necessary because
of the MBR limitation. The device driver mounts the capacity above 2.2TB with another MBR
which looks to the system as a second virtual “physical” device."

Well, that's a mega DDO :-) That should be easy to maintain. Nothing could
possibly go wrong with that!

So yes, they do actually support the 3TB drive, just with an overlay method
of some sort (a way of avoiding the issue). It just means that all OSes ever
to run on the machine, including utilities (e.g. Ghost), have to be similarly
prepared for this method of operation. If not, you may not be able to see
the partition placed in the top 800GB area.

(This is a similar concept, of using a technique to avoid a capacity issue...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Drive_Overlay

Your options are, as you suggest, to stay below 2.2TB when preparing the disk
(leaving the upper ~800GB blank and unallocated). Or give their "dual MBR dual virtual device"
idea a whirl. Whether this is wise, might depend on how many OSes you boot and
use.

If this idea had an accepted technical name, we could search for it in Linux
land, and see if that OS already had a matching solution.

Paul

[Rhino]

"Paul" <nos...@needed.com> wrote in message
news:jfamsn$3nm$1...@dont-email.me...

I haven't heard the acronym "DDO" before so I'm not sure what it means. From
the context, I'm guessing you find this approach gimmicky at best....

> So yes, they do actually support the 3TB drive, just with an overlay
> method
> of some sort (a way of avoiding the issue). It just means that all OSes
> ever
> to run on the machine, including utilities (e.g. Ghost), have to be
> similarly
> prepared for this method of operation. If not, you may not be able to see
> the partition placed in the top 800GB area.
>
> (This is a similar concept, of using a technique to avoid a capacity
> issue...)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Drive_Overlay
>
> Your options are, as you suggest, to stay below 2.2TB when preparing the
> disk
> (leaving the upper ~800GB blank and unallocated). Or give their "dual MBR
> dual virtual device"
> idea a whirl. Whether this is wise, might depend on how many OSes you boot
> and
> use.
>

That's easy: just Windows XP SP3 for now. Eventually, I'll upgrade to Win 7.
I used to do multiboot machines back in my OS/2 days but made the switch to
Windows-only machines some time ago. (Reluctantly, mind you, but buying
multiple OSes just for the bragging rights of having a multiboot machine
didn't make the best of sense; I no longer needed the different OSes just to
do what I needed to do.)

> If this idea had an accepted technical name, we could search for it in
> Linux
> land, and see if that OS already had a matching solution.
>

I'd just like to get this Disk Wizard approach to work - if it CAN work in a
32 bit Windows XP SP3 environment. I'm still not clear on whether Disk
Wizard can be coaxed to do what it's supposed to do. The video
(http://support.seagate.com/rightnow/flash/discWizard/DiscWizard_Large_3TB_XP/DiscWizard_Large_3TB_XP.htm)
makes it look reasonably easy but I'm darned if I can figure out how to make
the current version of Disk Wizard do what is required; it looks rather
different that the version in the video and I can't find the same options.

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

I was just watching the video
(http://support.seagate.com/rightnow/flash/discWizard/DiscWizard_Large_3TB_XP/DiscWizard_Large_3TB_XP.htm)
again, the one I cited which shows how to make XP SP3 see the full 3 TB of
the drive when I noticed that the version of DiscWizard being installed was
13. I had downloaded the current version of the program from the Seagate
site yesterday. It was Version 11 and was substantially different than the
Version shown in the video so I had just assumed that the video was using an
older version. But on the umpteenth time through the video just now, I
noticed that one of the install screens said Version 13.

I did some nosing around and found a different DiscWizard download page -
actually, it's a knowledgebase article -
(http://seagate.custkb.com/seagate/crm/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=218619&NewLang=en)
and this one's got Version 13! I've just downloaded and installed it. I have
to reboot now. I'll report back after I've had a chance to try Version 13 of
DiscWizard. Maybe I'll still get this working tonight....

--
Rhino

[Rhino]

"Rhino" <no_offline_c...@example.com> wrote in message
news:jfaskl$r4t$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

After the reboot, I went into Windows/Administrative Tools/Computer
Management/Storage/Disk Management and now it is showing me 2 TB of the
drive: 746.50 GB of free space and 1301.48 GB Unallocated. That's before I
did _anything_ but INSTALL DiscWizard; I haven't actually touched the disk
yet WITH DiscWizard. That's what the video said would happen....

I've been through the video and tried the steps a few times but things don't
work QUITE the same as the video says. Even though I think I've followed the
instructions exactly, when I am finished preparing the extended data portion
of the drive (the space beyond the 2 TB limit) and have closed DiscWizard,
Windows see this space as "Disk 3 / unknown / 746.51 GB / Not Initialized"
and puts a "forbidden" icon beside it. The space shows as "unallocated" and
I cannot create a new partition in it. I've tried making this space a
primary partition and a logical partition but neither gives the desired
result. Everything else seems fine, although I haven't tried the "new
partition" option on the 1301.48 GB of unallocated space that is what
remains of the first 2 TB of space. (I'm trying to follow the sequence in
the video in case it's critical that the extended space be formatted first.)

Darn!!! I felt like I was finally going to get it to work this time but no
dice.... They sure don't make this easy for those of us who aren't strong on
hardware stuff....

If anyone reading this thread has any idea why I'm not able to prepare that
extended capacity space despite following the video, I'd love to hear your
suggestions. If I can just get that one part to work, I'll be home free....

Perhaps the fact that I'm running 32-bit XP is the fundamental problem? The
video doesn't say anything about having to run 64-bit but maybe it's
"implied" somehow....

--
Rhino

[Paul]

I doubt it's a 32 bit OS issue. NTFS itself can handle huge storage
capacity (meaning structures larger than 32 bits may be used to
manage storage).

Since you're seeing an "extra virtual drive", I'm guessing the driver
did install and load. If the driver shows up in Device Manager, perhaps you could
look for the driver file names, and Google on those file names, for more advice
(to pick up conversations from other "3TB victims").

Paul

[Rhino]

"Paul" <nos...@needed.com> wrote in message

news:jfb5gg$ri7$1...@dont-email.me...

Problem solved!

I went to bed last night frustrated that I was seemingly so close to a
solution but not quite there. I had one faint hope though as I shut down;
that the shutdown (and the restart this morning) might still make a
difference. After all, reboots can fix things in Windows even when you think
they should make no difference. The video does NOT call for you to reboot
after formatting the extended space so it felt like clutching at straws.

As soon as I had started up just now, I went into Disk Management and saw
that the extended space was just fine! It says "746.52 NTFS Healthy
(Active)". I'm now in the midst of formatting the only remaining unformatted
space on the drive, the part between the basic 746.50 that Windows could
always see and the extended area beyond the 2 TB limit.

When that's finished, I should be able to use all 3 TB of the drive without
having to upgrade my OS or flash my BIOS or buy an add-in card for the
drive.

I'll post back here to confirm that this all worked when the formatting is
done and I've had a chance to verify that all partitions are accessible.

I'm strongly tempted to send Seagate an email suggesting that they make a
few changes on their website:
1. Make it clear that large (over 2 TB) hard drives can only be managed with
DiscWizard 13 and make it clear where that version is.
2. Put a note with DiscWizard 11 that it WON'T work with large drives.
3. Update the video voiceover to explain that a reboot is necessary after
formatting the extended area before Windows will recognize that area as
formatted.
4. Clarify that these procedures work for Windows XP SP3 regardless of
whether the user is using 32-bit or 64-bit.

If all of that had been clear, this would have been a much less confusing
process!!


--
Rhino

[Rhino]

Just one final post on this thread to confirm that all 3 TB of the drive is
now visible to me (well, it's actually 2.8 TB but no drives ever give you
the entire amount of space indicated on the box).

It's split into three drives, E, F, and G, all formatted to NTSF. The sizes
are 746 GB, 746 GB, and 1.27 TB. I've been able to write to - and read from
all three drives without difficulty.

Bottom line: The DiscWizard approach seems to work, even with my 32-bit XP
SP3 system, without the need for any add-in card to adapt the 3 TB SATA III
drive to my SATA II system. I didn't have to mess with the BIOS or upgrade
the OS to 64-bit. The critical factor was viewing the video at Seagate's
site - in my case, that was
http://support.seagate.com/rightnow/flash/discWizard/DiscWizard_Large_3TB_XP/DiscWizard_Large_3TB_XP.htm
- and getting the CORRECT version of DiscWizard (Version 13) from here:
http://seagate.custkb.com/seagate/crm/selfservice/search.jsp?DocId=218619&NewLang=en
for working through the steps in the video.

(This version of DiscWizard,
http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.jsp?locale=en-US&name=DiscWizard&vgnextoid=d9fd4a3cdde5c010VgnVCM100000dd04090aRCRD,
is Version 11 and is NOT appropriate for drives over 2 TB.)

I hope this helps others who encounter the same issues that I did.

Thanks to Paul for helping me to figure this out!

Gotta go; I have lots of data to move to the new drive to free up some space
on my smaller drives ;-)
--
Rhino

[Anssi Saari]

"Rhino" <no_offline_c...@example.com> writes:

> As per the subject line, neither Windows nor Seagate Disk Wizard can
> see the full 3 TB of my new 3 TB SATA hard drive. In fact, they can
> only see 746.50 GB.

I see you already solved your problem, but Paragon Software sells
"Paragon GPT Loader" for XP which might fit your needs. It seems like a
less hacky solution than what Seagate provides with their approach and
should make the whole disk available in one partition.

See
http://www.paragon-software.com/technologies/components/gpt-loader/

[Rhino]

"Anssi Saari" <a...@sci.fi> wrote in message news:vg3fwfa...@sci.fi...

I'll keep that in mind if this solution becomes a problem. Thanks!!
--
Rhino