Is my USB wireless keyboard not hot-swappable?
AdeW
In the instructions it says: "Ensure the PC is switched off. Plug the
receiver into the USB port. ... Restart the PC"
I thought all USB devices can be plugged in while the computer is
switched on right?
Sjouke Burry
Windows might not care , but the bios wants a keyboard as well..
AdeW
wrote:
I have a PS/2 keyboard already plugged which i'm typing on right now.
Sjouke Burry
AdeW
> >>> I have a Technika H38FE2 wireless USB keyboard and mouse.
>
Its wireless.
(PeteCresswell)
I have a few of Microsoft's wireless keyboard/mouse combos.
I also have an MS "Arc Mouse" for my laptop.
No problem hot-swapping any of them.
Windows XP.
--
PeteCresswell
kony
They just tell you the most simple, single way to do it. It
doesn't mean it can't be hot-swapped, though as someone
mentioned if you had no keyboard installed you need the PC
to reset to detect a USB keyboard is present for bios
emulation, in case you need that before windows boots which
many people would even if they aren't making bios changes,
because you may need it during the OS install.
AdeW
> I have a few of Microsoft'swirelesskeyboard/mouse combos.
>
> I also have an MS "Arc Mouse" for my laptop.
>
> No problem hot-swapping any of them.
>
> Windows XP.
> --
PS/2 isn't hot swappable is it?
The instructions also say "Windows 2000/XP/Vista: You do not need to
install software for operation of the mouse and keyboard."
I'd have thought it was for installing any software drivers - you're
told not to have any other programs running - but if you've Win2000
and above I can't see why you can't plug the keyboard in while the
computer is on.
Here's a weblink to see the keyboard.
http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.100-3676.aspx
Marcus Houlden
They can, but sometimes for the initial install you need to reboot.
Why not just follow the instructions? Sounds like you might be making this a
bit more complicated than it needs to be.
mh.
--
http://www.nukesoft.co.uk
http://personal.nukesoft.co.uk
From address is a blackhole. Reply-to address is valid.
DevilsPGD
<b7b51ce3-6d0b-4552...@j14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> AdeW
<adn...@live.co.uk> was claimed to have wrote:
>On 5 Dec, 01:06, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>> I have a few of Microsoft'swirelesskeyboard/mouse combos.
>>
>> I also have an MS "Arc Mouse" for my laptop.
>>
>> No problem hot-swapping any of them.
>>
>> Windows XP.
>> --
>Are they all USB? none of them PS/2?
>
>PS/2 isn't hot swappable is it?
Officially no, although in practice 99% of the time you won't fry
anything.
Once in a while, you will, such is the perils of hot-connecting an
interface not designed for it.
Barry Watzman
are. However, if a USB keyboard is not plugged in when the system is
powered up, some BIOS' will not subsequently recognize one if it is
plugged in later. It depends on the bios, and, also, on some of the
settings inside the bios to enable/disable USB keyboards (this is bios
and therefore motherboard dependent).
MOST USB devices are hot swappable.
Barry Watzman
mentioned with respect to USB keyboards, it is bios and motherboard
dependent.
Paul
> You can USUALLY "hot swap" a PS/2 keyboard.
But is that a good thing to recommend to people ?
Paul
kony
wrote:
I've often seen systems where if they had been booted w/o a
PS2 keyboard connected, you can't get it to work w/o a
reboot even ignoring the safety or wisdom of doing so.
Paul
I'd rather have people spread the notion of PS/2 not
being hot swappable like USB is, in order to prevent
more lost motherboards due to blown PS/2. I don't hot
swap mine. If I need to move my favorite keyboard and
mouse (both PS/2) to another machine, I power off to
do it.
I'm also careful with Firewire, because there
are enough sad stories around, to be suspicious
of the design of the Firewire connector system.
There are theories about how failures occur,
but no proof.
USB, I don't have concerns about that, with at
least the hot swap end of things. The only motherboard
I'm careful with, is my P4C800-E Deluxe, due to it
having the failure-prone ICH5R. If I use the USB on
that system, I plug the USB device in with the power
off. There have been enough failures of ICH5/ICH5R
without me adding to the list. I don't have to worry
about that with the other machines. My current VIA
based system has been trouble free on USB.
Paul
AdeW
> No, wrong,notALLUSBdevices arehot swappable. ButUSBkeyboards
> are. However, if aUSBkeyboardisnotplugged in when the system is
> powered up, some BIOS' willnotsubsequently recognize one if it is
> plugged in later. It depends on the bios, and, also, on some of the
> and therefore motherboard dependent).
>
> MOSTUSBdevices arehot swappable.
I've bought a *wireless* USB keyboard.
Is it the fact that it has a wireless infra red receiver that makes it
not hot swappable?
The keyboard itself doesn't even physically touch the PC.
Barry Watzman
Barry Watzman
in after the PC is up, you may have to hit a reset button (may have
other names) on both the keyboard itself and the wireless receiver
(which, by the way, may be either infra-red or RF).
kony
Generally a wireless keyboard has a microcontroller in it's
base receiver that makes the system think there is a
keyboard even if the physical keyboard isn't present at all,
so yes it should be fully hot swappable within the
limitations we've already mentioned, that if the bios needs
to detect it prior to drivers loading, it would need plugged
in when the system enumerates the hardware after POST.
AdeW
>
> - Show quoted text -
So in other words what you're saying is the PC would have to be
restarted if the keyboard was plugged while Windows was running.
AdeW
>
> USB, I don't have concerns about that, with at
> least the hot swap end of things. The only motherboard
> I'm careful with, is my P4C800-E Deluxe, due to it
> having the failure-prone ICH5R. If I use the USB on
> that system, I plug the USB device in with the power
> off. There have been enough failures of ICH5/ICH5R
> without me adding to the list. I don't have to worry
> about that with the other machines. My current VIA
> based system has been trouble free on USB.
>
> Paul
If its dependant on the motherboard, I have a Dell computer which has
the USB sockets at the back Mar 2000 (ship date) Optiplex GX1 Pentium
III (I've looked inside and can't see a model # on the motherboard)
and...
...two others I get to use which have the USB sockets at the front...
Dell Optiplex 740 AMD Athlon 64, WinXP 2002 SP3 and
Dell Dimension 3100 Pentium 4 WinXP 2002 SP3.
Would their motherboards be likely to be modern enough?
Does having the USB socket at the back of the Mar2000 Pentium III one
give a clue as to how robust it is?
Paul
The point of my statement was, that instances of designs that
have problems with USB port reliability are relatively rare.
Intel has not admitted there is a problem with ICH5/ICH5R.
The only site admitting there is a problem with chips like
that, is the Gigabyte site. They are mainly concerned
with static discharge. I'm not convinced their analysis
is totally correct. There was one user who had a USB failure
that happened when his system was rebooted. In that case,
the initial damage may have been by static, but the only
trigger was the reboot. I think there is more to the issue
than just static electricity. But if Intel chooses to not
explain the problem, we'll never know. I'm sure Intel has
done post-mortem analysis and knows exactly what the mistake
was.
http://tw2005.giga-byte.com/Motherboard/Support/FAQ/FAQ_456.htm
Your Dimension 3100 comes just after that generation of
chip, so should not have a USB issue. The 915GV likely has
something like ICH6 on it. Using a utility like Everest,
you may be able to list the hardware inventory in the computer,
and figure it out from that.
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim3100/en/sm/specs0.htm#wp1052310
Other brands and model numbers of chips should not have a problem.
The only other instance I know of, is PCI USB2 cards with
NEC chips, tend to be static sensitive. I've seen reports
from a number of people, where one or more ports on their
PCI USB2 cards end up blown. While the other ports
continue to work. The ports seem to fail independently
on the NEC chip.
The above Gigabyte article makes a reference to ICH4
also having the problem, but I haven't seen evidence of
that in the newsgroups. Whenever the USB problem shows
up, it seems to be the ICH5/ICH5R at fault. If it is
happening to ICH4, nobody has complained about it.
Paul
kony
No, the PC would have to be restarted to use the keyboard
outside of an operating system that loads a keyboard driver
if the keyboard had not been plugged in already when the
BIOS initializes.
For example, put in a memtest86+ boot floppy (or bootable
USB drive, etc) and turn on or reset the system and let it
boot to it without the keyboard yet connected, and you may
not be able to use the keyboard, BUT if you had the keyboard
already plugged in when the system was turned on or reset,
and the bios settings are right, you could use the keyboard
in such mini-OS environments that don't load their own
keyboard driver.
DevilsPGD
<Watzma...@neo.rr.com> was claimed to have wrote:
>No, wrong, not ALL USB devices are hot swappable. But USB keyboards
>are. However, if a USB keyboard is not plugged in when the system is
>powered up, some BIOS' will not subsequently recognize one if it is
>plugged in later. It depends on the bios, and, also, on some of the
>settings inside the bios to enable/disable USB keyboards (this is bios
>and therefore motherboard dependent).
Doesn't the USB interface require hotswapping at an electrical level?
Sure, you'll find cases where the device or driver needs notice to avoid
data loss, or but you're electrically safe to disconnect if needed.
Paul
Page 113 of USB20 spec
"The connectors are designed to be hot plugged."
If you pick up a USB flash drive, or even a USB cable,
you can see the outside (+5V and GND) contacts are longer
than the two center data contacts. That is a sign the
connector was designed for hot swap.
The ingredients of hot swap are
1) Ensure power and ground are established, such that
I/O signals are not damaged by phantom voltages coming
from the supply. (Particularly important if the hardware
is powered by -48V and the I/O is a much lower voltage.)
Making the contacts longer on some of the pins is how
you do that. This is just to illustrate what that might
look like. SATA has some pins longer than others, to sequence
what makes contact first, and ensure the sensitive pins
aren't exposed to out of bounds voltages. USB has this too,
if you look at a USB flash stick or USB cable contacts.
http://connector.almita.com.tw/rimages/304/SAAT-connector-02-B.jpg
2) Use "Failsafe" I/O pads, such that if one part of the
hardware loses power, the I/O pads don't provide a
sneak path. The sneak path can be things like diode
protection on I/O pads. The idea is the pads don't
inadvertently draw current when they're not supposed to.
3) Use a hot swap controller for power, to reduce the
transient when hardware is plugged in. USB doesn't
use this, and uses some design rules instead. The
host connector, has 100uF across +5V and ground, to
reduce the amplitude of bus voltage disturbance when
a device is plugged in. The guest device should have only
a small bypass cap used, since that cap needs to be charged
instantly. This kind of issue is detailed in an Intel document.
Failure to guard against the bus transient, can cause the
second USB on a stack to misbehave or have a data glitch.
USB devices are limited to 100mA before negotiation begins,
but that pales in comparison to a 5 amp transient caused
by charging a small capacitor inside the peripheral.
On hardware with major power consumption, and hot swap capability,
they gradually bring up the power on the module. That is
shown in the following document. But USB doesn't do this,
for reasons of economy.
(Hot swap design in a non-computer application. Mentions some issues.)
http://www.analog.com/library/analogDialogue/archives/42-05/hot_swap.html
The kind of I/O you're connecting to, makes a difference as well.
For hub architectures...
Host
/ | \
/ | \
X Y Z
the I/O may be independent of one another. USB works like that. When
something plugs into X, it doesn't disturb Y or Z. PCI Express
is like this too.
For bus based systems, it is much worse.
Host ---+---+---+
| | |
X Y Z
Plugging into "X" with the power on here, could glitch an ongoing
transaction on Y or Z to the host. Pre-charging the data pins to
half-rail before contact, is one solution. In general, this is
a much harder case to solve. Many sleepless nights if you do
something like this. PCI has a bus architecture like this, as
does the VMEBUS. PCI Express, on the other hand, is a hub, and
so doing a hot swap there, wouldn't upset a neighbor.
Designing for hot plug can either be extremely hard (bus based
system) or relatively easy. Getting the connectors right
is part of the battle. As far as I know, PS/2 has all
equal length pins, so there isn't any visible design intent
there for hot swap.
Having the OS recognize a hardware change, is a separate but
important issue. As an example, there are early SATA interfaces
that are quite capable of indicating a new drive is connected,
but because the driver didn't include any code (or maybe a
framework wasn't available to hook to), the hardware can't tell
anybody anything. For an event like that, either you can use an
interrupt, to indicate something has happened on a particular
interface. Or, the OS can poll the hardware at regular intervals,
to check for the presence of new hardware. An interrupt scheme
is preferable if available and if it is reliable.
Paul
David W. Hodgins
> So in other words what you're saying is the PC would have to be
> restarted if the keyboard was plugged while Windows was running.
My reading of all of the responses, is to just try it. If the
bios and drivers support hot swapping, it will work. If they
don't, it won't. Either way, there should be no damage done.
In most cases, it will work, but with some hardware/software,
it will not. Easiest way is to find out, is to just try it.
Regards, Dave Hodgins
--
Change nomail.afraid.org to ody.ca to reply by email.
(nomail.afraid.org has been set up specifically for
use in usenet. Feel free to use it yourself.)
David W. Hodgins
> I thought all USB devices can be plugged in while the computer is
> switched on right?
Most can, even if the manufacturer chooses to cover their butts
in the documentation, to handle those few systems where this
will not work due to old/strange usb controllers.
In many cases, such as printers and scanners, you're specifically
told not to connect it until after installing the supplied
drivers, to prevent windows from selecting some default driver.
Just try it, and see if it works.
AdeW
wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:58:36 -0500, AdeW <adn...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> > I thought all USB devices can be plugged in while the computer is
> > switched on right?
>
> Most can, even if the manufacturer chooses to cover their butts
> in the documentation, to handle those few systems where this
> will not work due to old/strange usb controllers.
>
> In many cases, such as printers and scanners, you're specifically
> told not to connect it until after installing the supplied
> drivers, to prevent windows from selecting some default driver.
>
> Just try it, and see if it works.
I will try the wireless keyboard on a newer (someone else's) computer
first.
Infact at the public libary when i've plugged in a camera it says I
need to be an administrator to install hardware, but USB memory sticks
work fine.
The instructions say "Windows 2000/XP/Vista: You do not need to
install software for operation of the mouse and keyboard." Since
public library PCs are WinXP I presume it should work just like a
memory stick and not need to install software hopefully.
AdeW
> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 14:58:36 -0800 (PST), AdeW <adn...@live.co.uk>
> wrote the following to uk.comp.misc:
>
> > I have a Technika H38FE2 wireless USB keyboard and mouse.
>
> > In the instructions it says: "Ensure the PC is switched off. Plug the
> > receiver into the USB port. ... Restart the PC"
>
> > I thought all USB devices can be plugged in while the computer is
> > switched on right?
>
> They can, but sometimes for the initial install you need to reboot.
>
> Why not just follow the instructions? Sounds like you might be making this a
> bit more complicated than it needs to be.
>
> mh.
>
> From address is a blackhole. Reply-to address is valid.
At home I'm using a Win98SE machine (had all its connectors taken off
for over year and half and sat unused) which when i first started
using it this year the PS/2 keyboard didn't work at boot so I swapped
it for another ps/2 keyboard which didn't work, so i bought this usb
keyboard, then i got the ps/2 keyboard working again after swapping
back and removing the mouse etc, so then i wondered could i have
mistakenly put the keyboard into the mouse port the first time, I can
never be certain. Should've took a photo.
There has been the a time when my keyboard has stopped working but
only for a few seconds. Must worse is when mouse is behaving
erratically going off in funny directions that i have to restart
Windows - so that would mean its a software problem and not hardware
hopefully. Also when the mouse has misbehaved the return key esd not
working when i press Start then key "u" then attempt to press return,
so then i press Alt F4 to restart my computer.
AdeW
> > switched on right?
>
> They can, but sometimes for the initial install you need to reboot.
>
> Why not just follow the instructions? Sounds like you might be making this a
> bit more complicated than it needs to be.
I'm using a Win98SE machine (had all its connectors taken off for over
year and sat unused) which when i first started using it this year the
PS/2 keyboard didn't work at boot (so couldn't get past scandisk) so I
swapped it for another ps/2 keyboard which didn't work, so i bought
this usb keyboard.
Then i got the ps/2 keyboard working again after swapping back and
AdeW
> bit more complicated than it needs to be.
I'm using a Win98SE machine at home (had all its connectors taken off
for over year and sat unused) which when i first started using it this
year the PS/2 keyboard didn't work at boot so I swapped it for another
ps/2 keyboard which didn't work
So i bought this USB wireless keyboard, but then the next day I got
the ps/2 keyboard working again after swapping back and removing the
mouse etc.
So then i wondered could i have mistakenly put the keyboard into the
Rob
"AdeW" <adn...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
news:f2b5d62f-b9fb-4288...@v19g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...
Aha - Windows 98SE. That might be the real issue, as it has very poor
USB support and, AFAIR, needs drivers installing for most, if not all,
USB devices. Under XP and later, it should and probably would 'just work'
(apart from the BIOS issue already addressed in other replies.)
HTH,
--
Rob
AdeW
> > At home I'm using a Win98SE machine (had all its connectors taken off
> > for over year and half and sat unused) which when i first started
> > using it this year the PS/2 keyboard didn't work at boot so I swapped
> > it for another ps/2 keyboard which didn't work, so i bought this usb
> > keyboard, then i got the ps/2 keyboard working again after swapping
> > back and removing the mouse etc, so then i wondered could i have
> > mistakenly put the keyboard into the mouse port the first time, I can
> > never be certain. Should've took a photo.
>
> > There has been the a time when my keyboard has stopped working but
> > only for a few seconds. Must worse is when mouse is behaving
> > erratically going off in funny directions that i have to restart
> > Windows - so that would mean its a software problem and not hardware
> > hopefully. Also when the mouse has misbehaved the return key esd not
> > working when i press Start then key "u" then attempt to press return,
> > so then i press Alt F4 to restart my computer.
>
> Aha - Windows 98SE. That might be the real issue, as it has very poor
> USB support and, AFAIR, needs drivers installing for most, if not all,
> USB devices. Under XP and later, it should and probably would 'just work'
> (apart from the BIOS issue already addressed in other replies.)
> HTH,
> --
>
> - Show quoted text -
I went to the public library and plugged it in and the receiver's
lights went on and the systray popped up saying "USB wireless keyboard
and mouse" "usb composite device" "installed and ready for use" . The
batteries (which i tested on something else) were in the keyboard, I
pressed the reset button on the receiver and its light flashed. Pretty
good so far.
Then pressed the link button on the keyboard but the keys didn't work.
Repeating these several times made no difference. There was no light
on the keyboard since that light is for indicating low battery power.
I even changed the batteries but no difference. Tried it on other
computers, no luck. Even managed to switch off a computer and then
restart that didn't work.
Rob
It's a duffer in that case - get it replaced by the supplier.
--
Rob