Borland's Product Support (or lack there of)
Nicholas Hanson
Background:
I posted a message yesterday about the poor quality help files in Delphi 3.0
compared to Delphi 2.0
Someone then informed me that there was an upgrade to 3.01 which could
possibly fix this. Now I just bought Delphi 3.0 two days ago so I figured I
had the latest version...
The Problem:
I don't (have the latest version that is). I purchased Delphi 3.00. I
called Borland and asked them about this upgrade and they informed me that
it would cost $15! I explained to them that I had just purchased the product
and could present proof (receipt) if necessary and did they have an "if you
bought Delphi 3.0 after X date then you get a free upgrade". They said no.
So I explained to them that I an a student and the entire Delphi 3.0
(standard) package only costs $49.95 so $15 dollars is over 1/3 the cost of
the package and asked if there was a similar educational discount... once
again... no. So I asked if I should return the product and wait for them to
master the new version. They informed me that there was no reason to
indicate there would be a new burn. So I asked if I could at least be told
what it fixed. "That information isn't available", so I asked if there was
someone else I might talk to who was more informed... you guessed it... no.
So what is the deal here? Borland just doesn't want customers? I just
upgraded MS Office 97 and it cost me nothing, no cost for the CD, no
shipping, nothing. The most I have ever paid for an upgrade from MS was $5
to cover shipping/packaging/etc. Now I HATE VB... I'm not fond of the Basic
Language and Run-time interpreted code sucks but if this is the kind of
service/support I am going to receive from Borland then I may just have to
go reluctantly into the waiting arms of Bill Gates. So basically Borland
has decided to release sub-standard software and make you pay to get it
fixed. I used Borland Products over the years that have included TP 7.0,
C++ 4.5, Delphi 2.0, and now Delphi 3.0... plus various add-ins etc. and
have been fairly satisfied until not. In fact whenever I look for any
programming utility I go first to Borland. I'm am sorry to see that their
high standards of quality have been lowered to such a degree.
Ian Jennings
Nicholas Hanson wrote:
>
> Background:
> I posted a message yesterday about the poor quality help files in Delphi 3.0
> compared to Delphi 2.0
> Someone then informed me that there was an upgrade to 3.01 which could
> possibly fix this. Now I just bought Delphi 3.0 two days ago so I figured I
> had the latest version...
>
I agree with you entirely. I'm investigating the Sale of Goods Act. I
think it scandalous. When I used to use VB3 there were errors in their
help files. MS upgraded and put it on their server for all to access.
Borland charge us for the privilege of having something that we've
already paid for, but not received. I'm sure that in any other field it
would be considered theft/fraud/something illegal. Any lawyers amongst
us?
Yours,
Disgruntled.
--
************************************************************
Ian Jennings
Microware Data Services
************************************************************
Earl F. Glynn
Ian Jennings <"ij"@microware.demon.co.uk(SPAMLESS)> wrote in article
<875775748.7779.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> Nicholas Hanson wrote:
> -- snip--
>
> I agree with you entirely. I'm investigating the Sale of Goods Act. I
> think it scandalous. When I used to use VB3 there were errors in their
> help files. MS upgraded and put it on their server for all to access.
> Borland charge us for the privilege of having something that we've
> already paid for, but not received. I'm sure that in any other field it
> would be considered theft/fraud/something illegal.
Don't say that Microsoft is a good example of a vendor fixing bugs.
Microsoft released Office 97 early this year just full of bugs, many
of which were not addressed by their buggy Service Release that
was recalled and re-issued a month or so ago. OK, their SR
didn't cost me anything, but Microsoft still didn't fix the bug that's
driving me nuts.
Yes, Borland could do a better job with product support, but
Microsoft isn't doing any better. Microsoft reported record
earnings at a time they released a terribly buggy version
of Office 97. What are they doing with all their money?
They sure aren't fixing many bugs with it.
Borland is struggling to be profitable, and they're doing
much better with limited resources in producing good software.
What do you thing those letters "dd" mean after their listing
in the Wall Street Journal every day? "dd" means "Loss in the
most recent four quarters."
Let's just hope that Borland can continue in business, especially
since Delphi is such a great product.
efg
_________________________________________________
Earl F. Glynn Earl...@WorldNet.att.net
MedTech Research Corporation
Lenexa, KS 66219 USA
K. A. Steensma
Sounds like you gave up (and asked what was in the upgrade)
to soom. You didn't "bitch" load enough. I got the same
info from Customer Service until I asked to talk to a
supervisor because I thought the policy was unfair.. After
all the backround discussion, I got the upgrade for nothing.
>"Nicholas Hanson" <nha...@mail.vt.edu> wrote:
>Background:
>I posted a message yesterday about the poor quality help files in Delphi 3.0
>compared to Delphi 2.0
>Someone then informed me that there was an upgrade to 3.01 which could
>possibly fix this. Now I just bought Delphi 3.0 two days ago so I figured I
>had the latest version...
>
Nicholas Hanson
The following is Borland's response to my post... I have deleted only the
copies of my original message. My responses to their arguments have also
been added. No other modifications have been made:
>You can tell the sub-version of Delphi 3 that you have from the date-time
>stamp of the system files. If the time stamp is 3:00, you have Delphi 3. If
>it is 3:01, you have the 3.01 version.
>All copies of Delphi 3 now going out to vendors and to customers who
>purchase directly from us are the 3.01 version. However, there is still the
>possibility of 3.0 copies yet in the inventory of resellers. Borland
>encourages its resellers to refresh their inventory, but cannot and will
>not attempt to force them to do this (Borland does not espouse a jack-boot
>mentality).
This is in direct conflict with what the person told me on the phone.
>The $15 cost is to cover shipping and handling. The shipping and handling
>for all editions of Delphi 3.01 -- including the $2,000 Client-server Suite
>edition -- is the same. The cost to produce, package, and ship the update
>is not proportional to the original cost of the software.
It should NOT cost Borland $15 to send a CD. I don't expect overnight
delivery and as a corporation they may be eligible for some sort of discount
over what an individual pays... perhaps a bulk rate even. As for the CD
itself it can't cost too much, I can buy a blank CD for around $10 or get a
pack for even less per CD. That is with the retailer making a profit.
Borland should be able to get them direct from distributors and in huge bulk
and thereby make them very cheap per CD. Packaging? What packaging? The
retail version doesn't even come with a gem case and the books are a feature
of the professional edition. Besides what book do you need for a patch, the
documentation should be on the CD. That cardboard sleeve really costs that
much? A lot of companies release patches and eat the cost themselves. If
Borland is so financially strapped they can't do that then at least charge
us a more realistic price like $5. What about putting the damn thing on the
web. Since I live in a dorm at a major university I have an Ethernet
connection to the internet. Even if the patch is several megs I can
download it in seconds. What use is someone without Delphi going to have
with a patch and there should be no financial cost to them at all.
>I am not in nor affiliated with either sales or support, so I am not
>familiar with their policies. I have no idea whether or not they still
>offer student discounts. However, you might try calling a couple locations
>here at Borland, people involved with student sales. They may be able to
>help you more than the general order desk. Here are two numbers:
> 408-431-1011
> 408-431-1591
Great, long distance numbers... what happened to the toll-free lines? How
long will I sit on hold or go through automated menus before I get a
technician?
>I am not sure to what you are referring here ... mastering new versions and
>new burns. One cannot purchase directly from Borland the 3.0 version. One
>can only get the 3.01 version. There is no new master or new burn beyond
>that -- 3.01 is the latest.
Here he is just nitpicking my choice of words... He obviously understood my
point because of the next paragraph:
>As far as returning the product goes, that is a possible option. If the two
>numbers above do not allow you to get the update for less than the
>budget-busting $15, you might return what you have and then use the money
>to buy another copy a few days later. The retail cost should be the same
>(but again, Borland does not control retail prices).
"budget-busting $15" - Is it just me or is he making fun of my financial
position here?
I happen to be a student at a major university. My income is low enough to
qualify for financial aid which although it covers more than tuition does
not cover room and board (I have neither a car nor do I live close enough to
commute) or books. I have to work all summer to make enough money to pay
that difference and then I usually just scrape by. Every once in a while
(usually about twice a year) I get up enough money to buy myself a "treat".
In this case it was Delphi 3.0 (which I could have in no way afforded were
in not for academic pricing). So $15 is a nice chunk of money to me.
>Order taking is not rocket science. Naturally, our best and brightest are
>not wasted in such endeavors. If you need to order a product, the order
>desk is the place. If you want to get in-depth technical questions
>answered, other sources are considerably better. One source is Delphi
>Developer Support (DDS). Their Pre-sale line is expressly set up to handle
>technical questions pursuant to a product purchase.
> 408-461-9065
Another long-distance number... great. Although it is kind of nice to see
they do not discriminate. Here he even trashed his fellow Borland employee.
>Another source are the Borland-sponsored Usenet newsgroups pertaining to
>Delphi. These are distinct from the one in which you posted and that is not
>affiliated with Borland. You can get a list of the Borland newsgroups for
>Delphi at the URL:
> http://www.borland.com/newsgroups/
>These newsgroups are divided into technical areas, so the best one for your
>more general questions might be:
> Borland.public.Delphi.non-technical
>I am not sure whether there is any technical doc on what changes and
>additions comprise the 3.01 maintenance release. I am conferring with DDS
>on this. If they have anything, I will forward it to you. There is,
>however, such a document for the 4.01 version of the BDE that comes with
>Delphi 3.01. It can be found at the URL:
> http://www.borland.com/devsupport/bde/fixes/401/index.html
Well that is great but I don't care about the BDE at this time. My main
concern for the upgrade was the help files and any program errors.
Additionally my news server doesn't carry those groups but I obviously did
post to the Delphi related groups it does carry.
>There are few, very few, software companies that can be compared
>economically to Microsoft. Borland is not one of them. We are among those
>other companies that must live within a budget, including having to charge
>shipping and handling for product sent to our customers. I guess that must
>make us scoundrels and cheapskates. Certainly, with the amount of money
>Bill has in his coffers he could afford to fly someone to your home to hand
>deliver a software update.
In any other business a comment like this to a customer would probably
result in termination. Just try and wade through this sarcasm and mockery.
As I have stated in other posts to this thread perhaps Microsoft was a bad
example. I'm sure he understood the point though and there are many other
companies including Borland themselves (BC++ 4.5 upgrade) that have charged
me $0-5 for product updates.
>If you base your assessment of the quality of a software company or
>software itself only on how much you can get for the company for free, you
>might just be more comfortable with Microsoft Visual Basic.
>At any rate, I have taken the liberty of forwarding your article to the
>manager of DDS. Even though your complaint does not have to do with
>technical support, but with marketing and sales. Perhaps they can find you
>some relief.
>**************************************************************************
>Steve Koterski
>Borland International, Inc.
>http://www.borland.com/delphi
How much software I can get for free? I thought I just wanted the patch for
a software product I had already purchased. It isn't like I asked for
Delphi 3.0 for free. I just expected to receive any patches to if for $0-5
once I had purchase it. So far I have only seen posts that at least
generally agreed with me... am I wrong? If you see an unreasonable point I
am making or some key concept I'm missing please let me know. Thank you all
for taking the time to read this thread and especially those of you who have
shared your own views.
Nicholas Hanson
Earl F. Glynn wrote in message <610mg4$2...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>Don't say that Microsoft is a good example of a vendor fixing bugs.
>Microsoft released Office 97 early this year just full of bugs, many
>of which were not addressed by their buggy Service Release that
>was recalled and re-issued a month or so ago. OK, their SR
>didn't cost me anything, but Microsoft still didn't fix the bug that's
>driving me nuts.
I never said Microsofts products were quality I said their service was.
I'll agree that MS products are far too buggy but the point is that when
they do release patches they do not charge $15. Perhaps MS was a bad
example though. I can name others if you'd prefer... I did not have to pay
$15 for the upgrade from Autodesk for Autocad R13c1 to R13c4a for example.
>Yes, Borland could do a better job with product support, but
>Microsoft isn't doing any better. Microsoft reported record
>earnings at a time they released a terribly buggy version
>of Office 97. What are they doing with all their money?
>They sure aren't fixing many bugs with it.
>
>Borland is struggling to be profitable, and they're doing
>much better with limited resources in producing good software.
>What do you thing those letters "dd" mean after their listing
>in the Wall Street Journal every day? "dd" means "Loss in the
>most recent four quarters."
>
>Let's just hope that Borland can continue in business, especially
>since Delphi is such a great product.
The financial situation of Borland is truly sad. As I have stated in the
past I have always looked to Borland for my development tools. The solution
however is not to charge those customers they do have for patches to
products... this is only going to alienate those of us like me who have
previously been supporters. I'm no marketing expert but if they need more
money then they should raise the initial price of the product... not charge
for fixes to things that technically shouldn't have been "broke" in the
first place.
Robert Lee
The real issue here is not the money, its borlands marketing strategy.
I've been using TP since 1.0. One of the keys to its success then was
its price - $49 and its quality, when most PC compilers (read Microsoft)
were $500+, ugly and slow beyond belief. Borland seems to have given up
on that original vision. Their real compilers are at least $250 as an
upgrade (what they call the standard version is really more like a
slightly hobbled trial version) and range up to close to $2000. And,
from what I've seen with both D2 and D3 they have no problem knowingly
shipping bugs. The reason for this is that they have abandoned the
individual users of their youth and are targeting corporate america
where the price of the software is nearly meaningless.
In short, we've been left out in the cold. Be glad, that they have kept
Pascal alive, as throw us a few crumbs, like the academic discount.
Bob Lee
Northwestern University
Delphi4ever
Guys,
Remember, D3 was released early, it wasn't due for
release until a month after I received my copy of D3 c/s,
and I got it from Tech Data, the saleshole at Borland
said it wasn't available, but TD had it. Go figure.
I feel the 16.00 bucks was a great deal,
for the updated help files and the much needed
fixes for the BDE. Plus the extra tools that
came with my update.
I also think that Borland is suffering from the same
problems that IBM is having, the left hand doesn't
know what the right hand is doing. And this
is hurting IBM. Talk to one sales hole and get
one thing, call back immediately and you'll get
a total different response. When I deal with Borland,
just as with IBM, call three times, if two answers match
then use that answer.
And ask your folks for a calling card.
Tony
Mark Cooperstein
Your point is totally absurd comparing a $49 TP1 circa late 80's compiler to
1997 DB3. You forget that Borland got into the business because everyone else
was selling $500 krappy compilers and they knew there was a way to start a
company by selling a decent compiler for 1/10th the price. You need to go
back and take some economics courses. Borland could never have maintained a
viable company and kept its price points the same as it was in 89. In order
to compete, it has to stay alive. In order to stay alive, it has to continue
to supply quality product. In order to continue to supply quality product, it
has to know: 1) what the market is for the product (ie: how many can they
sell), 2) what does it cost to develop the product, 3) what the competition is
selling its products for so it can have some sort of cognizence of what people
are willing to pay for similar product (after all, if company A is selling
their product for X$, you'd be foolish to ask for X+Y$) 4) and finally, based
on 1,2 and 3, what can they sell theyre product for and make a "reasonable"
profit so that they can do things like, oh, I dont know, pay employees, hire
more employees, develop more product, stay in business..... get the picture?
If the real issue of this thread is Borlands product support or lack of, and I
take that to mean its ability to provide its userbase with technical support
beyond the manuals, then thats an entirely different issue, although it is
related to my first observation. Maybe Borland needs to raise the price of
Delphi in order to supply better tech support? How would that grab you? I
mean, get real. Compilers are not in the same league as spread sheet
programs. For every 100000 copies of Excel sold, one copy of Delphi is sold.
In article <34347202...@nwu.edu>, Robert Lee <rh...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>The real issue here is not the money, its borlands marketing strategy.
marketting strategy my tushey!!
>
>I've been using TP since 1.0. One of the keys to its success then was
>its price - $49 and its quality, when most PC compilers (read Microsoft)
>were $500+, ugly and slow beyond belief. Borland seems to have given up
>on that original vision. Their real compilers are at least $250 as an
>upgrade (what they call the standard version is really more like a
>slightly hobbled trial version) and range up to close to $2000. And,
>from what I've seen with both D2 and D3 they have no problem knowingly
>shipping bugs. The reason for this is that they have abandoned the
>individual users of their youth and are targeting corporate america
>where the price of the software is nearly meaningless.
>
>In short, we've been left out in the cold. Be glad, that they have kept
>Pascal alive, as throw us a few crumbs, like the academic discount.
you've got it wrong pal. Pray real hard that Borlands marketing strategys can
keep them alive and prospering into the next century. Look what theyre
competing against? Do you want to write your next project in Visual Basic?
>
>Bob Lee
>Northwestern University
>
>
>
** Remove ".nospam" when replying or email will bounce back to you...
Robert Lee
I don't think you got my point at all. I generally agree with your comments. My
point was that they (Borland) moved their focus from the
independent/amatuer/hobbiest type programmer to the deeper pockets of the
corporate programmer. This is by definition a marketing strategy. I never said
it was bad business. Nor do I believe that they own any undying allegiance to
their original market. I do, however, lament that people like the initiator of
this thread and myself have been somewhat left behind.
I reiterate, be glad they have kept Pascal alive, and still throw us a few crumbs.
Bob Lee
Northwestern University.
D1Scully
In article <6118d5$ong$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, "Nicholas Hanson"
<nha...@mail.vt.edu> writes:
>>If you base your assessment of the quality of a software company or
>>software itself only on how much you can get for the company for free, you
>>might just be more comfortable with Microsoft Visual Basic.
>>At any rate, I have taken the liberty of forwarding your article to the
>>manager of DDS. Even though your complaint does not have to do with
>>technical support, but with marketing and sales. Perhaps they can find you
>>some relief.
>>**************************************************************************
>>Steve Koterski
>>Borland International, Inc.
>>http://www.borland.com/delphi
>
>>How much software I can get for free? I thought I just wanted the patch for
>>a software product I had already purchased. It isn't like I asked for
>>Delphi 3.0 for free. I just expected to receive any patches to if for $0-5
>>once I had purchase it. So far I have only seen posts that at least
>>generally agreed with me... am I wrong? If you see an unreasonable point I
>>am making or some key concept I'm missing please let me know. Thank you all
>>for taking the time to read this thread and especially those of you who have
>>shared your own views.
Why would you be willing to pay $0-5 for a patch? They're %#&%@#$ money from
you if you pay a quarter or $15.00. You've bought the product, paid
full price for it and it's broken.
Once again, if you like Borland products like I do then by all means
purchase them. But keep in mind that they're going to milk you with these
antics.
Buy the product from a store near you that has the standard 30 day money
back guarentee. Keep it, install it, study up on the manuals and use it
until the last day of the guarentee then return the whole package
unregistered. Get a third party book to hold you over for a couple weeks
or months then go out and get the package again that will have the bug
fixes in it and maybe even be on sale.
I don't do this because of the $15, I don't need it. I've still got
the $50 rebate coupon for Delphi 3 sitting on my desk and it's probably
going to be sitting in the same place long after the December expiration
date. I'm lazy and I don't need the $50, but I refuse to let someone
jerk me out of the $15.
I'd like to know what would happen if Steve ordered a brand new Pentium300
and found out when he got it home that it really had a Pentium60 chip with
the math error in it. Would he live with it? Take it back to the place
he got it? Or accept his own companies standards and pay the store he
bought it from to remove the 60 chip and replace it with a 300 chip that
he'd already paid for?
Obviously from the slant of his reply that you're just trying to be a
mooch instead of a confused consumer, he wouldn't mind paying a repair
fee plus shipping and handling to get his new computer up to the standards
he'd already paid for.
You're not wrong and don't let them twist the facts to make you look like
you're the one with the problem.
As a final note you might want to consider Steve's suggestion that you
look into Visual Basic or Visual C++. A the rate Borlands going you may
be needing another platform before you know it...
K. A. Steensma
Customer Service 800- number (but don't remember the rest).
Sorry!
>"Nicholas Hanson" <nha...@mail.vt.edu> wrote:
>Which number did you call?
>
>K. A. Steensma wrote in message <3433efb0...@news.flash.net>...
Hemant
"Nicholas Hanson" <nha...@mail.vt.edu> wrote:
>>::Which number did you call?
>>::
1-800-336-6464
They will ask for some numbers from the face of the CD.
hth,
hemant
hem...@hal-pc.org
Nicholas Hanson
Nicholas Hanson
Luc Schots
The trouble with this number is that from BELGIUM it's impossible to call
it!
AFAIK there's no customer support in Belgium (or the Benelux for that
matter)
Hemant wrote in message <3439665d...@news.hal-pc.org>...
PROBE
Hi people!
Howcome all directsound applications works fine on my computer. All but
the ones coded in delphi!? Even if they're compiled on someone elses
computer, they don't make a single sound nor error messages here!?
Please mail me at:
pr...@techno.org
Pascal Dutilleul
Luc Schots wrote:
>
> The trouble with this number is that from BELGIUM it's impossible to call
> it!
> AFAIK there's no customer support in Belgium (or the Benelux for that
> matter)
>
Customer Sales and Services Benelux :
+ 31 20 503 5142
Borland technical support for workstation :
Netherlands +31 20 581 4348
Belgium (NL) +32 2 714 3712
Belgium (F) +32 2 714 3711
For information about support options
+31 20 503 5181
Hope this helped,
Pascal
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
freelance software engineer
ing. Pascal Dutilleul
Pascal.D...@ping.be Borland Connections Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Allen Stoner O'Neill
Go to www. "Net2Phone" or "Net2Fone" or "Web2Phone" ... cannot remember
which ... there is an Internet app there that allows you to call 1-800
numbers over the Internet ... quality totally depending on traffic on web
and you connection...works well enough for me to ask these companies for
a direct dial number :)
Chio!
- Allen.
In article <61fr7r$cck$1...@pluto.interpac.be>, luc.s...@news.interpac.be
says...
> The trouble with this number is that from BELGIUM it's impossible to call
> it!
> AFAIK there's no customer support in Belgium (or the Benelux for that
> matter)
>
>
> Hemant wrote in message <3439665d...@news.hal-pc.org>...
> >"Nicholas Hanson" <nha...@mail.vt.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>>::Which number did you call?
> >>>::
> >1-800-336-6464
> >They will ask for some numbers from the face of the CD.
> >
>
>
>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
remove the NO from my address to reply ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Arsène von Wyss [Antispam - email address in message]
> >Another source are the Borland-sponsored Usenet newsgroups pertaining to
> >Delphi. These are distinct from the one in which you posted and that is
not
> >affiliated with Borland.
your
> >more general questions might be:
> > Borland.public.Delphi.non-technical
> Additionally my news server doesn't carry those groups but I obviously
did
> post to the Delphi related groups it does carry.
Borland has a news server on their own with *only* Borland newsgroups.
Point your news reader to forums.borland.com (as far as I rememer).
Arsčne von Wyss
avonwyss @ beaulieu-software.ch
******************************************************
* I removed my reply address to avoid spamming. *
* Please use the address above to reply or write me. *
******************************************************