Delphi for Linux.
Avid Fan
like a good idea.
I wish the Delphi community would consider this idea again.
If anybody is interested have a look at Ubuntu currently the most
popular distribution.
Rudy Velthuis
> The Lazarus idea of write once compile anywhere including Mac OS
> sounds like a good idea.
>
> I wish the Delphi community would consider this idea again.
You are aware of the fact that they are currently developing versions
for the Mac and Linux?
--
Rudy Velthuis http://rvelthuis.de
"My mother said to me, "If you are a soldier, you will become a
general. If you are a monk, you will become the Pope." Instead,
I was a painter, and became Picasso." -- Pablo Picasso.
Skybuck Flying
news:kJqRm.59475$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> The Lazarus idea of write once compile anywhere including Mac OS sounds
> like a good idea.
I like the idea as well...
I don't like Lazarus though... it's interface is kinda old (Delphi 7)
I am now used to Delphi 2007.
Lazarus is also naggy with a lot of pop-ups... and it doesn't have binary
packages.
However I would be willing to contribute some time to the project.
However I have no time to actually use Lazarus or dive into it's source
code.
So what could be done is:
1. A lazarus "leader" needs to determine what kind of work needs to be done.
2. The work needs to be split up into "seperate projects" which I could work
on.
3. The project would need to be very small... like maximum thousand lines of
code for functionalities... plus thousand lines of code for test code. So I
am willing to contribute at least 1000 lines of usuable code and 1000 lines
of test code... for a first try out. Maybe more in the future.
So it's important that I am able to work on the project in the sense of
"modules" "packages" "libraries" or anything else that can be seperated. So
I don't have to deal with zillions of lines of inter mingled code...
I know this might be difficult to do... but if it's possible to do... then
some more programmers could be assigned to the project and work
indepedently.
Also the modules shouldn't be too difficult... just something general that
doesn't require to much knowledge of pascal language or parsers or
whatever... but then again... the modules could all have different skills
requirements and difficulty levels.
If it's possible to split it up in modules and if successfull then all kinds
of programmers with different skillsets could participate.
Creating an IDE like Delphi or Lazarus is a lot of work... and is probably
too much work for a single programmer... maybe even too much work for only
one or two or three ?! ;) :) Especially any advanced code insight futures
and ofcourse the porting/support of platform specific code.
Therefore I believe what is needed is a good "technical leader" which
doesn't actually program himself (or maybe just a little bit) but splits
everything up into modules... Such sacrifice is required ! =D Since I like
programming LOL... I am not going to stop programming ! LOL.
In other words some kind of "module architect" (who creates the module
architecture) or "general architect" is needed.
> I wish the Delphi community would consider this idea again.
Make the GUI more flexible so I can get rid of naggy
messages/dialogs/pop-ups... maybe make multiple different gui versions...
like a Delphi 7 version and a Delphi 2007 version or so... for different
tastes ! ;)
At least try to make the gui in such a way that it's flexible/modular and
easy to rebuild from scratch in different ways ?!?
> If anybody is interested have a look at Ubuntu currently the most popular
> distribution.
I took a look at it because somebody else was using it and it's indeed
nice... I haven't used it myself intensively... so I wouldn't know if it's
any good... but I would suspect there are bugs in there and quircks ! ;) :)
But hey it's free ! =D
And the mac stuff is kinda interesting too... though Steve Jobs is a big
dictator ! =D
I don't know if I wanna write software for somebody who runs his "empire"
like a dictator ! LOL.
Bye,
Skybuck =D
Jamie
does not go into the 10meg file sizes from the get go..
I think that is just a little extreme if you ask me.
Dave Baxter
avid...@notvalidexample.net says...
And just what did happen to Kylix?
DB
Avid Fan
> Avid Fan wrote:
>
>> The Lazarus idea of write once compile anywhere including Mac OS
>> sounds like a good idea.
>>
>> I wish the Delphi community would consider this idea again.
>
> You are aware of the fact that they are currently developing versions
> for the Mac and Linux?
>
>
Thanks
Avid Fan
From my understanding (which is not the best)
1/ It was a different language, So you could not just take a program
you wrote in Delphi and compile it in Linux. I would say this was an
important/vital feature.
2/ It was full of bugs (so they say)
3/ Almost nobody bought it.
Point 3 is important. Linux users get their software free.
Linux is free.
Firefox, Thunderbird for Linux is free.
Openoffice.org is free.
Lazarus is free.
Yes 95% of the web servers you visit are on Linux machines, but how many
companies do you know are running anything but Windows XP on their
desktop machines?
From Delphi (Who owns it now Borland? Codegear?) point of view how
many people are prepared to pay for Delphi?
I would if I knew how to use it. (I would love to learn Delphi I have
not been to successful from books a course would be good. I have
written programs in Visual Foxpro and Visual Basic. I had a dBase
background I made a mistake in not switching earlier.
There is a window (excuse the pun) of opportunity to break Microsoft's
strangle hold on software. Vista is a disaster, Windows 7 is better but
not much.
In the good old days there was competition. My company needs only one
specific application to abandon Windows.
I have looked at equivalent application in our competitor companies and
I do not believe it. You would be better off with a stone and chisel.
With control of the OS by Microsoft, Delphi is on even playing field.
Avid Fan
> "Avid Fan" <avid...@notvalidexample.net> wrote in message
> news:kJqRm.59475$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> The Lazarus idea of write once compile anywhere including Mac OS sounds
>> like a good idea.
>
> I like the idea as well...
>
> I don't like Lazarus though... it's interface is kinda old (Delphi 7)
>
I am not suggesting Lazarus as an alternative to Delphi. It seems
perfectly fine to me but even if it did not I would not complain about
software I got for free.
What I do know is that I am having a hard time learning it. I have
learnt Visual Foxpro (mainly) and Visual Basic (to a lesser extent)
I dream of knowing what you know (not a sarcastic comment). If only I
could win Lotto, I would be knocking at your door.
Forget him. You are not writing software for Steve Jobs or Bill Gates
you are writing it for you. The money would come to YOU.
>
> Bye,
> Skybuck =D
>
>
Avid Fan
No not like that. You write one program.
You compile it in Delphi Windows for Windows users.
You compile it in Delphi Linux for Linux users.
You compile it in Delphi Mac for Macintosh users.
The compiled program size is pretty much the same in all cases.
BRoberts
> Jamie wrote:
>> Avid Fan wrote:
>>> The Lazarus idea of write once compile anywhere including Mac OS sounds
>>> like a good idea.
>>>
>>> I wish the Delphi community would consider this idea again.
>>>
>>> If anybody is interested have a look at Ubuntu currently the most
>>> popular distribution.
>> it's a great idea how ever, if only you can compile a simply app that
>> does not go into the 10meg file sizes from the get go..
>>
>> I think that is just a little extreme if you ask me.
>>
>
> No not like that. You write one program.
>
While it sounds nice it is practically near impossible to implement. O/S
have quite different security models, file management systems, error
trapping and recovery mechanisms, user interfaces and device management. In
order to provide a single language compilable across several platforms one
ends up either introducing platform specific sections, i.e. if isLinux then
. . . elseif isWin32 . . . etc. or one ends up providing a "lowest common
denominator" set of system interfaces. The problem with the later is that
writing complex real world applications becomes quite difficult.
Skybuck Flying
Pascal/Delphi ?!?
I would not recommend using Lazarus... though it does have some benefits for
you....
You will get used to Lazarus and it's quircks...
However I tried Lazarus too... and it kinda sux and it's difficult to use
because of all it's quircks/shortcomings whatever...
For a newby to Delphi/Pascal it's a bad thing... because you will run into
these quircks and problems and then you won't know if it's you that did
something wrong... or if it's a problem with Lazarus.
Also you mentioned "cross-platform" support.
I came across something called "Free Basic", it's available for dos, linux
and windows.
As a Delphi programmer I was quite impressed by it !
However you also mentioned "mac os"... free basic seems to not have a
version for it... but maybe in the future ?
So if you really want to develop for mac os I guess you stuck with Lazarus
then.
I don't know of any other "pascal" based language tool for mac os... since I
don't develop for mac os ;)
I know free pascal compiler runs on mac os... so maybe it's better for you
to stick to "console based programs" until you understand the free pascal
language better... but I guess you not a totally newby about programming...
and it seems you want to do "visual form/gui design as well" ;)
So if that's the case then you stuck with Lazarus for now unless somebody
else knows a better tool for you ;)
(Lazarus supports at least windows, linux and mac... I know that much... how
good it works for linux and mac I don't know... but I would assume it would
work at least a little bit ! ;) :))
I might dive myself into Lazarus some day... I didn't like vista that's for
sure... and windows 7 ?!? I don't know about that ;)
Right now I am waiting to see how the "parallel processors" turn out to be
;) :) and possibly what operating systems support them the best way ;) for
now I would assume windows 7 =D
Bye,
Skybuck.
Skybuck Flying
compiler.
The compiler cannot compile source files which are located in folders
containing spaces.
For me that's unacceptable...
So as long as that problem is not fixed then I will never use free pascal
unless Delphi totally dies ;)
The problem is not even with free pascal itself but with the "tool chain"
that it uses...
I could fix it myself maybe though... then I would need to dive into some C
source code ;)
Bye,
Skybuck.
Avid Fan
> So if I understand correctly you are using Lazarus as an introduction to
> Pascal/Delphi ?!?
>
> I would not recommend using Lazarus... though it does have some benefits for
> you....
>
> You will get used to Lazarus and it's quircks...
>
> However I tried Lazarus too... and it kinda sux and it's difficult to use
> because of all it's quircks/shortcomings whatever...
Bugs?
>
> For a newby to Delphi/Pascal it's a bad thing... because you will run into
> these quircks and problems and then you won't know if it's you that did
> something wrong... or if it's a problem with Lazarus.
I was hoping to write programs for Linux.
I dual boot Vista/Ubuntu so I could download Delphi 6 personal which I
understand is offered free.
>
> Also you mentioned "cross-platform" support.
>
> I came across something called "Free Basic", it's available for dos, linux
> and windows.
I was kind of hoping to leave basic behind.
>
> As a Delphi programmer I was quite impressed by it !
>
> However you also mentioned "mac os"... free basic seems to not have a
> version for it... but maybe in the future ?
I don't have any specific plans to do any thing with Mac, never even
used one to be honest.
>
> So if you really want to develop for mac os I guess you stuck with Lazarus
> then.
>
> I don't know of any other "pascal" based language tool for mac os... since I
> don't develop for mac os ;)
>
> I know free pascal compiler runs on mac os... so maybe it's better for you
> to stick to "console based programs" until you understand the free pascal
> language better... but I guess you not a totally newby about programming...
> and it seems you want to do "visual form/gui design as well" ;)
>
> So if that's the case then you stuck with Lazarus for now unless somebody
> else knows a better tool for you ;)
> (Lazarus supports at least windows, linux and mac... I know that much... how
> good it works for linux and mac I don't know... but I would assume it would
> work at least a little bit ! ;) :))
>
> I might dive myself into Lazarus some day... I didn't like vista that's for
> sure... and windows 7 ?!? I don't know about that ;)
>
> Right now I am waiting to see how the "parallel processors" turn out to be
> ;) :) and possibly what operating systems support them the best way ;) for
> now I would assume windows 7 =D
Is Windows 7 any better? Vista takes a long time to boot but works OK
because I have a fast machine Dual Core AMD with four Gig of memory.
I don't run anti-virus because I connect to the Internet via Ubuntu.
>
> Bye,
> Skybuck.
>
>
Avid Fan
I was hoping differences would not be so great.
Is the lowest common denominator that low? User interfaces are all
pretty much the same text boxes button etc..
A program that stored information in MySQL in what ever platform.
connection would be sorted out by the compiler.
I see programs worth Millions of dollars Sebel for example. What a dog!
If you could flick a switch on Delphi and put it in some sort
"compatibility mode"
This is just rambling I am a novice, there is so much more to the
picture that I don't see.
Thank you all for your advice.
Dave Baxter
avid...@notvalidexample.net says...
Interesting... From what I've read, it was advertised as Delphi for
Linux. There is a lot in the D7 help system that reffers to it too,
giving details of "unsafe" system calls, that will not work in
Kylix/Linux, but the overall source language was (I think) much the
same, Object Pascal.
But I suspect like you, the lack of sales, due to it being an expensive
paid for system is what killed it, in the face of many FOS offerings..
Regards.
Dave B.
Erick Engelke
On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Dave Baxter wrote:
>> 1/ It was a different language, So you could not just take a program
>> you wrote in Delphi and compile it in Linux. I would say this was an
>> important/vital feature.
I think the language was the same, it's just that it didn't use the VCL,
it used CLX or some similar name. They made CLX available for Windows
too, it was like the VCL except they had components that were
vendor-neutral, so you could theoretically move your code between
platforms. More on that in a second.
>>
>> 2/ It was full of bugs (so they say)
>>
>> 3/ Almost nobody bought it.
They included a free copy of Kylix 3 in.. I belive it was Delphi 7.
That's how I got my copy.
I tried to install it, but ran into problems that it was designed for a
different linux than I used.
>> Point 3 is important. Linux users get their software free.
Actually, I think they had a good idea of making it part of the delphi
license. I know they were trying to drum up business with that, but it
could be a very effective sales proposition: write once and it's
portable... Companies would considerred Linux too much of a chance would
be able to write portable programs in little extra time, and would get
cross platform compatibility by just investing in Delphi.
I know that for a fact, because I have ported some of my programs to Mac
and Linux, albeit not with Delphi, but I would have loved the option.
>>
>> Lazarus is free.
>>
I did download and try lazarus. Like Kylix, it's not 100% compatible.
But if you are a good programmer and your code lives on for decades, you
will have long ago learned how to make code that compiles with different
compiler versions and platforms. Yes some ifdefs, but also using
abstraction and clean coding.
For example, one of my applications can be loaded as a standalone EXE, or
as an ActiveX module in IE, or as a browser extension for Google Chrome,
Firefox, Opera, Windows Safari, etc. It mostly uses a common code base
despite a bit of coding for each environment.
Also, many programmers have moved their code from earlier Windows/Dos/Unix
to Windows GUI, then to Windows services, etc. You learn to not assume
you have the GUI functions always available.
Lazarus looked cool, and I will try it again someday, but for the
application I was doing, the executables were too large. If you know that
lazarus include full xml parsing abilities and other things, you can
appreciate that it will take up room. But it just didn't meet my
requirements for that particular project.
>> Yes 95% of the web servers you visit are on Linux machines, but how many
>> companies do you know are running anything but Windows XP on their
>> desktop machines?
At my university I've tested devices as they connect to our wireless.
Different preferences depend on group: faculty, staff, students.
(Collected in 2009)
Total
Windows 70%
Macs 15%
iPhone 10%
Linux 4%
Student OS Breakdown
Windows 64%
Mac 15%
iPhone 12%%
Linux 8%
Faculty OS Breakdown
Windows 66% (489)
Macs 26% (191)
iPhone 3% (20)
Linux 5% (38)
Staff OS Breakdown
Windows 69% (131)
Macs 21% (41)
iPhone 4% (7)
Linux 6% (12)
>
> But I suspect like you, the lack of sales, due to it being an expensive
> paid for system is what killed it, in the face of many FOS offerings..
>
The Mac market is more important than the Linux market at this point.
Macs have broken into many corporations, and those people are used to
paying for software. Mac is more mainstream now than ever before.
But there are new challenges: many more things are moving to the Web. The
project where I was considerring Lazarus, I converted it to
Javascript/PHP.
AJAX, Java, Flash are now able to do many things we would have written
apps for a few years ago. HTML5 and Silverlight may be the new
compeditors a few years from now.
Erick Engelke er...@uwaterloo.ca
Director PHY-3013
Engineering Computing (519) 885-1211 x35893
University of Waterloo http://www.eng.uwaterloo.ca/~erick
Rudy Velthuis
> No not like that. You write one program.
>
> You compile it in Delphi Windows for Windows users.
>
> You compile it in Delphi Linux for Linux users.
>
> You compile it in Delphi Mac for Macintosh users.
>
>
> The compiled program size is pretty much the same in all cases.
Yeah, and the Mac people wonder why the app looks so much like a
Windows app (in style, placement of buttons and labels, group boxes,
used controls, missing controls, etc.) and not like a Mac app at all,
so they discard it as inferior.
The same happens with the Linux people.
--
Rudy Velthuis http://rvelthuis.de
"UNIX is simple. It just takes a genius to understand its
simplicity." -- Dennis Ritchie
Dave Baxter
Blood...@hotmail.com says...
Rename your folders with underscores '_' instead of spaces? Embedded
spaces screw up many other things too, not just in folder/path/ names.
Dave Baxter.
>
> Bye,
> Skybuck.
Skybuck Flying
folder: TFileStream
vs
folder: TFile_Stream
Was "stream" part of the class name or was it just a folder description ?!
;)
Bye,
Skybuck.
BRoberts
> BRoberts wrote:
> I was hoping differences would not be so great.
>
> Is the lowest common denominator that low? User interfaces are all
> pretty much the same text boxes button etc..
There are significant UI differences between systems even though they are
conceptually similar. But the real differences, the ones that make life very
difficult for real world applications, lie more with inter process / thread
communications, file system synchronization, exception generation and
handling, resource aquisition and security.