Mozilla forum <news.mozilla.org> to shut down 3 April

[occam]

This message from Chris Ilias, the moderator of news.mozilla.org

---

*WHAT IS HAPPENING*
Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).


*WHEN IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN*
lists.mozilla.org: April 3
news.mozilla.org: Sometime after April 3


*WHAT YOU WILL EXPERIENCE*
Because all posts to this newsgroup go through the mailing list, no
messages will be approved after April 3. You will still be able to
access news.mozilla.org, but there will be no new posts in this
newsgroup after that. If you try to post a message, it will just not appear.

Sometime after that, Giganews will shut down news.mozilla.org, and you
will no longer be able to access the newsgroup.

---

More details from <mozilla.support.firefox>

The times, they-are-a-changing!

[John C.]

Which, ironically, I just subscribed to again a few days ago.

> The times, they-are-a-changing!

Also:
_______________________________________________________________________

*WHERE TO GO FOR SUPPORT*
The primary Firefox support forum is at
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/firefox?show=all
Other languages can be found at
https://support.mozilla.org/kb/get-community-support

If you prefer newsgroups, there may be newsgroups on Usenet where you
can find Firefox support. If not, try netscape.public.mozilla.browser.

*WHY THIS IS HAPPENING*
Mozilla has been migrating off of mailing lists and newsgroups for many
years now. Many of the mailing lists have already closed down and moved
to https://discourse.mozilla.org/
Even though a support web forum already exists, the support
newsgroups/lists have remained open for the lifetime of the server.

*WHERE TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS ANNOUNCEMENT*
You can reply to this post, and I'll try to answer any questions.
If you have questions after the shutdown, you can find me in the
#firefox chat room at
https://chat.mozilla.org/#/room/#firefox:mozilla.org or the #sumo chat
room at https://chat.mozilla.org/#/room/#SUMO:mozilla.org

My display name on chat.mozilla.org is cilias
_______________________________________________________________________

For a long while now, every time I post a message to a newsgroup on the
Mozilla server, I've been getting an email that my post is being
reviewed for moderation before it finally shows up after a
several-hour-long delay. I guess I can see where that kind of thing
would get old to Chris, who is one of the moderators.

I guess it's not really a big deal to simply log into my Firefox Account
(which Mozilla bullied me into creating if I ever wanted help with
Firefox), although I never use that account for "synching" or any of
that kind of crap.

--
John C. BS206. No ad, CD, commercial, cripple, demo, nag, pirated,
share, spy, time-limited, trial or web wares for me please. I filter out
posts made from Google Groups and cross-posted (sent to more than one
newsgroup at a time) messages. I recommend you do likewise.

[John C.]

PS. There is discussion in mozilla.support.firefox (on the Mozilla
server) on that very thread (**THIS FORUM WILL BE SHUT DOWN SOON**)
about the creation of alt.comp groups. The main disadvantage would be
that the devs wouldn't be monitoring the groups and seeing what the
users have to say about their programs. That is, if they were actually
doing so on the Moz server groups.

A lot of upset people posting to that thread.

[Mike Easter]

John C. wrote:
> The main disadvantage would be
> that the devs wouldn't be monitoring the groups and seeing what the
> users have to say about their programs. That is, if they were actually
> doing so on the Moz server groups.

One of the problems is that the 'orbit' or sphere of the users is not
the same orbital sphere of the dev/s. How the dev/s look at or want to
see a 'problem' is very different from the 'noise' of the users.

The answer to that problem of course is the concept of the 'high level'
user/s who can actually experience the sensations of the user community
and also be able to express that in a way that the dev/s are willing or
able to 'hear'. *IF* they 'want' to hear.

That is to say, I don't think the dev/s actually 'listen to' the issues
in the Tb support group; so the Tb support is just users helping users
work w/ the existing features of Tb, not 'fix' some problem.

The business of nntp support and maintenance is a 'nasty' business, as
it doesn't moderate well and larger and larger numbers of those who
would converse and support -- ask and answer -- migrate away from ng/s
toward either webforums or chat.

I've wondered for a long time what the relationship was between such as
Moz (or Tb or Ffx) and giganews; was Moz paying for the infrastructure?
How does it work w/ Chris Ilias? Does he get paid? By who? Moz? Moz
financial support vis Tb is cloudy.

--
Mike Easter

[occam]

They were, through the participation of a small number of (ex-)devs who
were also participants in the group. There is no reason why the same
people should not migrate to the new <alt.comp> groups, if/when this is
set up.

[Shadow]

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 01:33:10 -0700, "John C." <r9j...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>> *WHERE TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS ANNOUNCEMENT*
>> You can reply to this post, and I'll try to answer any questions.
>> If you have questions after the shutdown, you can find me in the
>> #firefox chat room at
>> https://chat.mozilla.org/#/room/#firefox:mozilla.org or the #sumo chat
>> room at https://chat.mozilla.org/#/room/#SUMO:mozilla.org
>>
>> My display name on chat.mozilla.org is cilias

Rather appropriate nick, if you pronounce "cilias" just right.

They obviously don't want people asking embarrassing questions
about all the datamining in public places...
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

[Ralph Fox]

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 01:12:52 -0700, John C. wrote:

> Also:
> _______________________________________________________________________

>
> If you prefer newsgroups, there may be newsgroups on Usenet where you
> can find Firefox support. If not, try netscape.public.mozilla.browser.

Following the announcement, there is far more discussion in NG alt.fan.mozilla
than there is in NG netscape.public.mozilla.browser .


--
Kind regards
Ralph

[occam]

Andy Burns, one of the regulars on mozilla.support.firefox has taken the
initiative to establish 2-3 new NGs to continue these mozilla forums:

e.g.

alt.comp.mozilla.firefox
alt.comp.mozilla.thunderbird
alt.comp.mozilla.seamonkey

[VanguardLH]

Going to alt.* hierarchy for Firefox support would be a welcome change.
Dictator Chris Illias who has ruined the Firefox newsgroup with his
personal "style" of moderation (which did not follow Mozilla's
guidelines on moderation duties, so Chris got rid of that web page soon
after I pointed out he wasn't following Moz's rules) will get deposed.
Yay!

[p-0''0-h the cat (coder)]

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:49:31 -0500, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>Yay!
Power crazy MF! Carry on.

Live everyday like you're a cat.

Sent from my iFurryUnderbelly.

--
p-0.0-h the cat

Internet Terrorist, Mass sock puppeteer, Agent provocateur, Gutter rat,
Devil incarnate, Linux user#666, BaStarD hacker, Resident evil, Monkey Boy,
Certifiable criminal, Spineless cowardly scum, textbook Psychopath,
the SCOURGE, l33t p00h d3 tr0ll, p00h == lam3r, p00h == tr0ll, troll infâme,
the OVERCAT [The BEARPAIR are dead, and we are its murderers], lowlife troll,
shyster [pending approval by STATE_TERROR], cripple, sociopath, kook,
smug prick, smartarse, arsehole, moron, idiot, imbecile, snittish scumbag,
liar, total ******* retard, shill, pooh-seur, Pooh Dendum, scouringerer,
jumped up chav, punk ass dole whore troll, no nothing innumerate religious
maniac, lycanthropic schizotypal lesbian, professional bully and stalker,
the most complete ignoid, joker, and furball.

NewsGroups Numbrer One Terrorist

Honorary SHYSTER and FRAUD awarded for services to Haberdashery.
By Appointment to God Frank-Lin.

Signature integrity check
md5 Checksum: be0b2a8c486d83ce7db9a459b26c4896

I mark any messages from trolls »Q« and 'Arlene' Holder as stinky

[Mike Easter]

occam wrote:
> Andy Burns, one of the regulars on mozilla.support.firefox has taken the
> initiative to establish 2-3 new NGs to continue these mozilla forums:
>
> e.g.
>
> alt.comp.mozilla.firefox
> alt.comp.mozilla.thunderbird
> alt.comp.mozilla.seamonkey

... but new alt. groups are not 'readily' adopted by the myriad server
admins, as it is a much abused process, quite different from the big8.

It would be 'better' to accumulate in an existing well-propagated usenet
place to marshal forces.

--
Mike Easter

[s|b]

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 09:20:24 +0200, occam wrote:

> This message from Chris Ilias, the moderator of news.mozilla.org
>
> ---
>
> *WHAT IS HAPPENING*
> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).

Steps are being taken to create the following newsgroups:

alt.comp.software.firefox
alt.comp.software.thunderbird
alt.comp.software.seamonkey

Not supported by Mozilla, but who cares about that?

--
s|b

[VanguardLH]

s|b <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>> Mozilla is shutting down the newsgroup server (news.mozilla.org) and
>> mailing lists (list.mozilla.org).
>
> Steps are being taken to create the following newsgroups:
>
> alt.comp.software.firefox
> alt.comp.software.thunderbird
> alt.comp.software.seamonkey
>
> Not supported by Mozilla, but who cares about that?

Yep, just like for the alt.windows7.general and alt.comp.os.windows-10
newsgroups that did not receive Microsoft's blessing nor interference.

When I was previously using Eternal September, I asked them to create
newsgroups for Firefox and Thundbird. Fell on deaf ears. I wasn't
going through the Big-8 process of submitting a request and then opining
(voting) with others the merits of creating the newsgroups before
finally getting them created, and peered. Now that there is better
reason (spurred by Mozilla's withdraw), may ES and others will
reconsider the merits of creating the newsgroups.

As I recall, the Win7 and Win10 newsgroups started at a small Usenet
provider, but it took a month before their peering partners agreed to
also carry the same new newsgroups. You could visit the Win7 or Win10
newsgroups, but only if you polled the Usenet provider that created
them. Took awhile before users could use their own Usenet provider to
see those newsgroups.

[occam]

On 30/03/2021 20:49, VanguardLH wrote:
> occam <nob...@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> This message from Chris Ilias, the moderator of news.mozilla.org
>>

<snip>

>>
>> The times, they-are-a-changing!
>
> Going to alt.* hierarchy for Firefox support would be a welcome change.
> Dictator Chris Illias who has ruined the Firefox newsgroup with his
> personal "style" of moderation (which did not follow Mozilla's
> guidelines on moderation duties, so Chris got rid of that web page soon
> after I pointed out he wasn't following Moz's rules) will get deposed.

I'm not sure what experiences you have had with Chris, but the couple of
times I had my posts 'removed' by him, he provided his reasons for doing
so. I did not hold it against him, as I saw his point.

You have to admit that until now, <news.mozilla.org> NGs have been less
prone to spurious posts and asshole interjections than, ahem.... ACF.


> Yay!
>

Yay or Nay, the deed is done.

[VanguardLH]

occam <nob...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Going to alt.* hierarchy for Firefox support would be a welcome change.
>> Dictator Chris Illias who has ruined the Firefox newsgroup with his
>> personal "style" of moderation (which did not follow Mozilla's
>> guidelines on moderation duties, so Chris got rid of that web page soon
>> after I pointed out he wasn't following Moz's rules) will get deposed.
>
> I'm not sure what experiences you have had with Chris, but the couple of
> times I had my posts 'removed' by him, he provided his reasons for doing
> so. I did not hold it against him, as I saw his point.
>
> You have to admit that until now, <news.mozilla.org> NGs have been less
> prone to spurious posts and asshole interjections than, ahem.... ACF.

Yep, and also prone to very helpful replies disappearing, too. Spend
hours researching a problem for someone, dig into Firefox, do online
research, and do a write up showing how to fix the problem (or why it
cannot be fixed) along with explanation of why it is that way in
Firefox. It doesn't show up according to Chris' bias that you never
explain the failings of anomalies of Firefox. Just provide the bare
help with no explanation. That's impossible for someone, like me, that
has been in hardware and software QA for decades.

Chris refused to consider volunteers as moderators. He wants full
moderation control. They are *his* newsgroups despite they are using
Mozilla resources. Chris is just one person, and he sleeps which means
submitted but yet non-approved articles can take half a day to show up.
If you are not auto-approved (i.e., in his whitelist), acceptance of a
submission awaits his attendance. I've seen mine get delayed by 14
hours, or more. Sometimes it's just an hour (never immediate because
I'm on Chris' shitlist of obstreperous posters), but it could be over a
day, or never, so all my work to provide an educated and researched
response was wasted. Respondents doing lots of work to help but getting
reamed by Chris decide to leave. They want to help, but Chris won't let
them.

If he allowed other moderators, some would be awake when he is asleep,
and there would be averaging of bias of just what content is considered
on-topic.

Chris has a his list of cronies, and their posts always show up
immediately, so Chris employs a whitelist. If he rejects an article, he
is supposed to post the article in an alternate newsgroup along with
edited it to show his explanation of why he rejected article, according
to Moz's rules which Chris managed to eradicate. Or he can post a
synopsis article in place of the original article into the original
newsgroup with his explanation for rejection. I've never seen him do
that, but I have seen him effuse his slant on his interpretation of what
is on-topic or off-topic.

If you help a user while explaining a deficiency in Firefox that causes
the problem, fat chance it shows up since you are not only showing a
resolution but why the user has to perform the workaround. Here's what
you do: that's accepted. Here's why you have to do that: not accepted
if in any way derogatory to the product (don't expose failings).
Explaining why the fix is needed is considered off-topic by Chris. Just
help, don't analyze why it's that way. No panning of Firefox is
allowed. He says you must post that content in the general newsgroup,
but then the explanation for the resolution is disconnected from the
help you provided to someone asking why something doesn't work. How is
a discussion of defects or behaviors of Firefox not germaine to a
newsgroup named Firefox? Oh no, you must bury that into the general
newsgroup where almost no one will see it, so you get dismal response,
if any, from a general community of all Moz products instead of a
community focused on the actual product. Who goes to the Firefox
newsgroup to ask for help or to give it, and also monitor the General
newsgroup on everything and anything Mozilla? Disappearance by
dissolution.

If Chris rejects a submission (himself or via his scripts/filters), you
simply not see your submission show up. Did it get submitted? Did it
bounce through the front-end NNTP server and manage to survive the
backend e-mail setup (the newsgroups are foremost a mailing list with an
NNTP gateway tacked on)? Or was there an error in the mailing list part
of the setup which won't get returned to the poster? The NNTP frontend
accepts the submission, the NNTP session is lost, the submission (if
accepted) goes to the mailing list system, but it can error there;
however, since the NNTP session no longer exists, there is no way to
report the error from the mailing list backend to the poster. The
scheme isn't Chris' fault, but he apparently never checks the error logs
to find where articles that were approved but didn't survive the mailing
list system. Chris says to e-mail him (cont...@ilias.ca) if you want
to inquire why your post never showed up within a few minutes, few
hours, or over a day of waiting. Uh huh, take the discussion offline,
so other users don't see the evidence of his skewed filtering.

Yes, the lack of moderation means more noise in a newsgroup resulting in
you defining filters to get the view of a newsgroup how you want to see
it. Moderation is beneficial if the moderator is a benefactor. Chris
has proven he is not so beneficiary. You are judged by your actions,
not by who you claim you are, especially after obliterating Moz's rules
you are supposed to follow as a moderator. Moz's rules? Nope. Chris'
rules despite he's driving someone else's car.

Oh, by the way, you can see that I often am very verbose in my replies.
Chris has admitted that he refuses to read long posts. He skims. If a
post is longer than he is willing to read, he won't approve it. So, he
filters based on his slow reading speed or intolerance to long posts.
Long posts are highly likely to get rejected by Chris. However, short
posts are often incomplete regarding explanation, and going terse can
often mean being too vague and of no help. My ability to read and type
very fast results in upping the chance of rejection by Chris.

[John C.]

I feel your pain, seriously. Chris doesn't like me either.

[occam]

One of the last messages on mozilla.support.thunderbird says:


"As this mailing list is being retired, we take this opportunity to
point out that much of Thunderbird's support happens at:
https://support.mozilla.org/questions/new/thunderbird/form "

[VanguardLH]

occam <nob...@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> One of the last messages on mozilla.support.thunderbird says:
>
> "As this mailing list is being retired, we take this opportunity to
> point out that much of Thunderbird's support happens at:
> https://support.mozilla.org/questions/new/thunderbird/form "

Oh goodie. A flat (non-hierarchical) web-based forum, so you cannot see
who replied to whom. I have seen web-based forums where the discussion
was hierarchical, but I cannot remember which forum software was used.

Tis pretty much what Microsoft said: go to our web-based Answers forums.
However, the microsoft.public.* newsgroups were peered across the mesh
network of NNTP servers (aka Usenet), not just on Microsoft's NNTP
server. When Microsoft left Usenet, they couldn't take away their
newsgroups. They took down their NNTP server, but everyone else
continued to carry those newsgroups. Since Mozilla's newsgroups are on
their separate non-peered NNTP server (I think Google had a group that
peered, but it still didn't get peered out), they can easily eradicate
their newsgroups by disabling and uninstalling their NNTP server. Oh,
their NNTP server was a front-end to their mailing system, but tis easy
'nuff to eradicate that server, too.

For web-based forums, they are usually moderated. Also, who are the
moderators is often identified. I went into the Firefox forum, but saw
no link pointing at the moderator(s). For example, if you have problems
logging in, posting, or other use of a forum, you need to contact a
moderator or administrator. Their Contact Us link is circular: of no
help, useless FAQ, and points back to forums. Where is the TOS for each
forum to dictate what is and is not on-topic, netiquette, or other rules
for use? We certainly wouldn't want to cross Ilias, or whoever is
moderating a newsgroup; else, we'll get blacklisted there, too.

Odd their forums don't work with their own Firefox web browser for
account sync. I have Firefox configured to sync some of its data which
means I have a Firefox account to which Firefox syncs. Yet, when I
visit their web forums, I have to manually login. Firefox Sync should
be employed for automatic login.

Besides peuriles, trolls, malcontents, forgers, and other unwanted types
of posters, I filter out Google Groupers due to the uber-boobs and the
lazy that post knee-jerk inquiries with no initiative to research first.
Web based forums are rife with dullards. Usenet cultivates a more
educated users if only because they had to figure out how to participate
there. I could use Google Groups as an interface to Usenet, but I
won't.

From looking the last 25 discussions in the prior 24 hours, I'm not
impressed with their web forum. Of the inquiries, many would fall under
the same reason I filter out Google Groups: lazy posters or uber-boobs.
The response level is low (7 threads with replies out of 25, so just a
bit over 25% of the inquiries get a response) indicating there isn't
much participation by helpers compared to those asking for help. Some
inquiries appear beyond the expertise or willingness to investigate by
the respondents (helpers) there.

Although selecting the "All" view to supposedly see all threads, instead
their forum software enforces a page view: you get to see a page's
worth, and then have to click on "Older" to scroll through older posts a
page a time. And paging (or changing views) is v-e-r-y slow: click
"Older", and wait, and repeat ad nauseum. There is no option to provide
a quick scan of topics by hiding the body preview, and just show the
Subject titles. You'll waste a lot of time moving around in their
forums. There is not date sorting option: you'll see topics that are 3
years old, 7 years old, 6 years old, and jumping all over in datestamps.
I've visited other web forums (using different forum software), and they
had date sorting.

Their search sucks. Only searches on titles and bodies. Cannot search
by poster, or any other attribute of the posts there.