Watchmen: MLJ/Archie and Charlton counterparts
Christopher L. Tumber
It's become a FAQ that the Watchmen characters are based upon the
Charlton characters the rights to which which DC had bought. Watchmen
was to be their introduction to the DC universe, but when DC saw was
Moore was doing the characters were changed.
Originally, the Crimebusters were:
Night Owl ][ = Blue Beetle ][
Rorschach = The Question
Silk Spectre ][ = Nightshade
The Comedian = Peacemaker
Dr. Manhattan = Captain Atom
Ozymandius = Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt
It's also become a FAQ that:
"Other characters had no direct Charlton counterparts. In particular, the
Minutemen were a Moore creation."
But is this true?
Apparently, Moore has said that Watchmen was originally conceived long
ago to be about the MLJ/Archie heroes. So, what happened? Did Moore start
from scratch when he got hold of the Charlton characters, or is his earlier
work still there?
Well, obviously the Crimebusters are spoken for, but what about
Watchmen's golden age team, the Minutemen?
The Comedian, Nite Owl I and Silk Spectre I are all Charlton characters,
but what about the rest. Are there parallels in the MLJ/Archie heroes?
Well, yes.
Bear in mind that the Crimebusters in many cases bear little resemblance
to THEIR prodiginators. The same is true and more so for the Minutemen.
After all, there's potential for copyright problems as DC does not own
the MLJ/Archie characters (they did licence them for a while for Impact!
I do believe but that's it) so the characters do have to be altered even
more so than the Charlton characters.
But consider:
The Minutemen
Hooded Justice = Black Hood, Mr. Justice, Hangman
Mothman = The Fly
Captain Metropolis = The Shield
Dollar Bill = Captain Flag, (The Wizard)
The Silhouette = ???
Sculpt Hangman's original collar slightly, add a noose around the neck to
go with the belt, take the Black Hood's hood and colour scheme and name
him after the Black Hood and Mr. Justice and you have Hooded Justice.
Mothman and The Fly's wings are very similar, plus, the silver age
revial of Adventures of the Fly was renamed to Fly-Man midway through
the run making the similarities even more apparent.
Captain Metropolis and The Shield share VERY similar masks, with the top
of the head cut-away to show forehead and hair. Plus Metropolis has a
small, winged shield on his chest.
Dollar Bill is a little more tenuous. His colour scheme resembles that of
The Wizard but the cut of the mask resembles Captain Flag except for the
crest on the top of Flag's head. The four pointed star from Flag's chest
is also on Dollar Bill's forehead. Plus, I except the irony of turning
an American flag in a dollar bill might appeal to Moore's British sense
of humor.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a predecessor for The
Silhouette. MLJ didn't have a lot of female characters, and never really
jumped on the good-girl bandwagon. I don't know...
However, the rest, I think can be supported fairly well. In particular,
Hooded Justice is just too much to be a coincidence. Mothman and Captain
Metropolis are also hard to argue with. There aren't a lot of winged
golden age characters other than The Fly and Hawkman, though ANY winged
insect character could potentially be mistakenly related to another
but it's still uncanny. Metropolis is also a good match, both are patriotic
heroes (Metropolis' war record saved him during the witchhunts) and the
similarities in appearance seem too close to be chance. Dollar Bill is a
bit of a stretch, but not totally implausible.
These five (or four at least) seem to be the nucleus of Watchmen, With
the other Minutemen and Crimebusters being added later, when Moore began
using the Charlton characters.
All this does help to explain why Watchmen feels so rich, and so deep.
Namely because the Minutemen were probably the original focus of the
story. They would've all been developed for the original plot and then
turned into supporting characters when Moore began working with the
Charlton characters. Thus, these characters have a history of their own,
and were originally supposed to cary the show so they are strong enough
in their own right to do that.
That being said, I wonder what the original Watchmen story was about?
We're given hints, The Keene act? The Silhouette scandal and Hooded
Justice? But our Watchmen revolves of course around the modern heroes, the
Crimebusters. Indeed, the only Minutemen who figure to a large degree in
the story are Charlton characters: Silk Spectre I, Nite Owl I and The
Comedian. The rest are dead (Dollar Bill, Hooded Justice) or insane
(Mothman) for most of the story except Metropolis who plays only a minor
role in bringing together the Crimebusters for their one meeting.
Indeed, Moore has pretty much left the original Minutemen intact and pretty
much untouched by the Crimebusters and effects of Watchmen. We learn
most of our information about them from the text pages, and their
appearances on panel are very limited compared to other heroes - Hooded
Justice confronts The Comedian and may be killed by him, Metropolis
attempts to form the Crimebusters, but that's about the extent of it.
Of the Minutemen, it is the Charlton Minutemen who are spolighted, who
affect and are affected by the story; Silk Spectre I's relationships with
The Comedian and Silk Spectre ][; Nite Owl I's mentorship of Nite Owl ][,
The Comedians cynicism.
When you look at it, it does seem kind of strange there's so little room
for these five characters given the scope of the eight others. It's hard
to believe this exclusion is accidental. True, the point of the series
was to introduce the Charlton characters to the DC universe, but then why
create these other characters at all if not to use them? Certainly the
golden age background is nice, but really, none of it is essential to the
story. It gives Nite Owl ][ and Silk Spectre ][ some history and
establishes The Comedian's nastyness from early on, but none of it really
has large effect on Ozymandias' scheme, Dr. Manhatten's alienation,
Rorschach's quest or Nie Owl ][ and Silk Spectre ][ developing
relationship. No, I think the inspiration for these characters is
definately MLJ/Archie.
Incidentally, many MLJ/Archie characters are missing. Moore did neglect
some Charlton characters (Judomaster, Son of Vulcan, Nature Boy, etc.)
so it's possible he was choosy about the MLJ/Archie characters too, but
I can't help wondering if Comet, Web, Steel Sterling and The Jaguar
or facsimiles thereof where dropped from the book.
michael kelly
all these questions pretty thoroughly.
Other than the original Nite Owl, the only character he could identify
that he 'copied' was Silk Spectre, having based her on the Phantom
Lady.
--
+ Mike Kelly, Notre Dame Department of Physics mke...@ovid.helios.nd.edu +
+ +
+ Oh, and never mind the words, just hum along and keep on going. +
+ - Ian Anderson +
WinningerR
ago to be about the MLJ/Archie heroes. So, what happened? Did Moore start
from scratch when he got hold of the Charlton characters, or is his
earlier
work still there?<<<
I can guarantee that these parallels weren't consciously drawn. The only
"Minuteman" based upon a Charleton hero is Nite Owl I (Hollis Mason), who
was based on Blue Beetle I. The original proposal discusses an older
generation of heroes, but the only one we actually see is the original
Blue Beetle. After DC asked him to create his own characters, Moore
essentially went back to square one.
Scott Shuchart
says...
>All this does help to explain why Watchmen feels so rich, and so deep.
>Namely because the Minutemen were probably the original focus of the
>story. They would've all been developed for the original plot and then
>turned into supporting characters when Moore began working with the
>Charlton characters. Thus, these characters have a history of their own,
>and were originally supposed to cary the show so they are strong enough
>in their own right to do that.
>
>That being said, I wonder what the original Watchmen story was about?
>We're given hints, The Keene act? The Silhouette scandal and Hooded
>Justice?
Hrn. It did seem pretty clear from the Grafitti book that the
'60s-'70s-'80s heroes were always the focus of the story--and really have
to be, because it's about the fall of the heroes in the '80s, not the
birth of the heroic era, which Moore really has nothing to say about
(same w/Miracleman--it's not what they do at first, but what they do once
they're decadent).
But someone, Moore or not, did flesh out the Minuteman timeline
pretty fully. It's in the Mayfair Games Watchmen sourcebook (and I think
there was also some Minuteman info in the first RPG module about the
Watchmen, which I don't have). I'll try to dredge out the sourcebook and
module II to see how official it purports to be (bearing in mind that
much of the DCU Mayfair stuff was out-of or embellished continuity).
Christopher L. Tumber
>I can guarantee that these parallels weren't consciously drawn. The only
>"Minuteman" based upon a Charleton hero is Nite Owl I (Hollis Mason), who
>was based on Blue Beetle I. The original proposal discusses an older
>generation of heroes, but the only one we actually see is the original
>Blue Beetle. After DC asked him to create his own characters, Moore
>essentially went back to square one.
(Methinks I'll have to turn up a copy of the hardcover for myself..)
The Comedian is based upon The Peacemaker and was a Minuteman. So was
Silk Spectre I, who's daughter Silk Spectre II is based upon Nightshade
(or Phantom Lady??)
and,
Scott Shuchart wrote:
> Hrn. It did seem pretty clear from the Grafitti book that the
>'60s-'70s-'80s heroes were always the focus of the story--and really have
>to be, because it's about the fall of the heroes in the '80s, not the
>birth of the heroic era, which Moore really has nothing to say about
>(same w/Miracleman--it's not what they do at first, but what they do once
> they're decadent).
Watchmen tread that Moore has said (in the hardcover?) that he had
originally envisioned a series using the MLJ/Archie characters, and
later (perhaps several years later) began a project for DC using the
Charlton characters... [If whoever posted that is reading this, please
pipe up].
It's true that the focus of the Watchmen narrative IS the present and
the modern heroes. However, there ARE certain echos of a previous story.
These echos tend to show up in the text pages, and provide background,
setting and mood for the main story. There's an awful lot there for
just a bunch of background characters who have no real effect on the
main story. Sure, you could just chalk it up to one writers
perfectionism, but I think there's more to it.
What I'm suggesting happened is something like this:
A) A young Alan Moore toys with the idea of reviving the MLJ/Archie
heroes in some modern revamp (Moore's trademark for a long time
[Miracleman, Swampy, Watchmen]). He may have just though of this idly
for a while, or, he may have done some serious plotting, scripting and
character work. Or something in between.
B) i) The Watchmen project comes along. Moore reconsiders his previous
ideas with respect to an MLJ/Archie revamp and rewrites it into Watchmen
with the Charlton characters coming to the forefront.
or
ii) The Watchmen project comes along. Moore needs some golden age
characters and decides to use (with considerable alterations) the work
he'd previously done on the MLJ/Archie characters. Hence, he has
characters he's already very familiar with, who were created to exist in
a world much like Watchmen and with stories he's probably already written
to a large degree. Ready-made support characters with extensive background
all set to go. The fact that they were the original concept behind Moore's
"realistic" super-hero world is a bonus.
Judging from the fates of Mothman, Dollar Bill, Black Hood and
Silhouette, they get decadent pretty quick (not to mention the
Comedian's rape attempt). I don't have any real problems imagining Moore
doing a story set in the 50's-70's (perhaps the 70's flashbacking to the
50's? Particularly if Moore originally had the idea in the late 70's)
about the fall of the Minutemen...
Just because it's not in the proposal Moore submitted to DC doesn't mean
it's not in the back of his mind, or that this wasn't the seed from which
Watchmen grew. I mean, if I was submitting a LSH proposal to DC, I certainly
wouldn't tell them I had originally planned to write the story using the
X-Men...
[And given that it's ten years later, and this is the first time I've
seen the possibility of paralells drawn between the Minutemen and
MLJ/Archie I kinda doubt the Mayfair stuff is going to offer a lot
of insight. At most, the connection was strictly Moore's and he seems
to have kept it to himself, at least it may be a subcounscious re-use
of ideas, concepts and characters he'd created before. I don't expect
Mayfair would have been privy to the details in Moore's mind.]
WinningerR
pretty fully. It's in the Mayfair Games Watchmen sourcebook (and I think
there was also some Minuteman info in the first RPG module about the
Watchmen, which I don't have).<<<
Actually, that someone was me. Much of the material that appeared in the
book and not the comic series was supplied by Alan Moore.
WinningerR
Phantom Lady was a Quality Comics character, if memory serves (along with
Uncle Sam, etc -- the DC characters collectively known as the Freedom
Fighters). The original proposal had nothing to do with Quality Comics.
michael kelly
There's no excuse for you not to order the Graphitti Designs Watchmen book
from Bud Plant. He's only asking $50 for the thing, which can't be more
than the retail price when it was originally released.
It answeres all these questions, and more.
Moore states pretty clearly that he wanted to give the illusion of
a long continuity, so he created the story of the Minutemen.
Bud Plant: (916) 273-2166
(800) 242-6642
FAX: (916) 273-0915
Other suggestions to order from BP:
Monster Society of Evil Slipcase ($70)
Hard Black Kiss: ($15)
Mark Buckingham's "Miracleman Golden Age" poster: ($4)
I don't work for Bud Plant, but I do enjoy the service.
Tom Galloway
michael kelly <mke...@weil.helios.nd.edu> wrote:
>There's no excuse for you not to order the Graphitti Designs Watchmen book
>from Bud Plant. He's only asking $50 for the thing, which can't be more
>than the retail price when it was originally released.
Unless you got a discount from your dealer, it isn't. Heck, considering
inflation at an average 3%, you'd be getting around a 20% discount from
the original price in 1988 dollars.
Side note: keep in mind that there were two hardbacks of Watchmen. One
was from the Science Fiction Book Club, and according to what I've heard,
does not contain the additional Moore/proposal material in the back. It's
also not leather bound and all that nice stuff. The Graphitti version has
all that.
"Do you juggle?" "No."
"Blow balloons?" "No."
"Synthesize nerve gas?" "No."
"Not much of a clown, then, are you?! POW!" --The Joker and Paliaccio
tyg t...@hq.ileaf.com
WinningerR
book
from Bud Plant. He's only asking $50 for the thing, which can't be more
than the retail price when it was originally released.<<<
Yes, this book is extraordinary.
Mark Schlesinger
> Side note: keep in mind that there were two hardbacks of Watchmen. One
> was from the Science Fiction Book Club, and according to what I've heard,
> does not contain the additional Moore/proposal material in the back. It's
> also not leather bound and all that nice stuff. The Graphitti version has
> all that.
>
together too well. I'm on my second copy since my first copy came unbound
from the cover.
--
Mark Schlesinger If I had any opinions...They'd be mine!!!
schl...@maildaztcn.wr.usgs.gov
res jr.
t...@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Tom Galloway) wrote:
:
: Side note: keep in mind that there were two hardbacks of Watchmen. One
: was from the Science Fiction Book Club, and according to what I've heard,
: does not contain the additional Moore/proposal material in the back. It's
: also not leather bound and all that nice stuff.
The spine isn't very durable, either. grrr.
--
bo...@execpc.com -*- robs...@delphi.com -*- rob strobbe @ times
--*-- "When cowards don't make sense, they make insanity." --*--
Christopher L. Tumber
> Phantom Lady was a Quality Comics character, if memory serves (along
> with Uncle Sam, etc -- the DC characters collectively known as the
> Freedom Fighters).
attributed Silk Spectre I to Phantom Lady. Which was news to me.
However, as I've also stated, I don't have the hardcover myself
yet, so I couldn't excactly say "No, that's wrong".
Nobody else did either though...
WinningerR
attributed Silk Spectre I to Phantom Lady.<<<
Okay, I do have the hardcover. I'll check on it for you.
If Phantom Lady is mentioned at all, I'd guess that she was mentioned only
as an archetype (ie. "we'll create a character like Phantom Lady or
something") rather than a literal presence in the story.
michael kelly
>WinningerR wrote:
>
>> Phantom Lady was a Quality Comics character, if memory serves (along
>> with Uncle Sam, etc -- the DC characters collectively known as the
>> Freedom Fighters).
>
>However, as I've also stated, I don't have the hardcover myself
>yet, so I couldn't excactly say "No, that's wrong".
>
>Nobody else did either though...
Here's some of what the HC says:
Moore says the project grew out of three things:
1) DC wanted him to do something in addition to SWAMP THING
2) He wanted to work with Dave Gibbons
3) He wanted to tell a story free of continuity without "annoying
limitations". He does say "my original idea, for what it's worth, involved
the MLJ-Archie Comic super-hero line, the MIghty Crusaders. This, restricted
to idle fanboy musing as it was, has no special significance, save that it
was fairly easy to make the conceptual leap to the characters of the
defunct Charltan comics line once I heard that DC had acquired the rights
to them."
The Minutemen (circa 1944)
The Original Nite-Owl (Blue Beetle I)
The Original Silk Spectre: "Very much in the tradition of the original
Phantom Lady, the Silk Spectre was voluptuous to the extreme..."
Brother Night: A real weirdie, similar in appearance to the Spectre or
Mr. Justics...or the Destroyer or the Vision. (Hooded Justice)
Sillhouette "...Marlene Dietrich, or Nico..."