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Religion in the Batman comics

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Patrick2480

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Jun 7, 2001, 9:48:14 PM6/7/01
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hey all
We all kno Catwoman/Selina Kyle is Catholic (and a bad one at that)
The Huntress is probably Catholic too. The Gordons too mayb ?
any other characters have religious convictions ?

MadiHolmes

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Jun 7, 2001, 10:18:43 PM6/7/01
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>hey all
>We all kno Catwoman/Selina Kyle is Catholic (and a bad one at that)
>The Huntress is probably Catholic too.

Oh yeah. And Helena is the next Mother Theresa

>The Gordons too mayb ?
>any other characters have religious convictions ?

You'll find that comics in general are rather vague about religion or
denomination. Religion is one way to alienate readers <or so they say>, so it's
usually left up in the air.

MadiHolmes

Patrick2480

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Jun 8, 2001, 2:23:47 AM6/8/01
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>
>You'll find that comics in general are rather vague about religion or
>denomination. Religion is one way to alienate readers <or so they say>, so
>it's
>usually left up in the air.
>

why did the creators of Batman, make the modern day Catwoman/Selina Kyle
Catholic, a bad Catholic?

MadiHolmes

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Jun 8, 2001, 2:37:22 AM6/8/01
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>
>why did the creators of Batman, make the modern day Catwoman/Selina Kyle
>Catholic, a bad Catholic?

Because Catholics are so interesting- practicing or otherwise ;)

MadiHolmes

I think it has to do with the guilt. Nothing like a good ol' heap of Catholic
guilt to up the angst and drama.


Brian Doyle

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Jun 8, 2001, 6:05:02 AM6/8/01
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"Patrick2480" <patri...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010607214814...@ng-cg1.aol.com...

> The Huntress is probably Catholic too.

She definitely is, too many references to priests and Catholic churchs in her
background for her not to be.

>The Gordons too mayb ?

Never specified

> any other characters have religious convictions ?

Well Azrael seems to think he works for God half the time, so that might qualify :)

Years ago Dick had a discussion with Wally West about religion in which he stated
that he believes in God but doesn't attend church regularly, no demonination was
mentioned.

Similarly Bruce has stated more than one that he doesn't pray, and considering he
worked with an angel in the JLA, I'd say that was a pretty strong brand of aetheism
he has there!


Josh Dull

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Jun 8, 2001, 2:25:47 PM6/8/01
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"Patrick2480" <patri...@aol.com> wrote

> hey all
> We all kno Catwoman/Selina Kyle is Catholic (and a bad one at
that)

Selina Kyle's religion was given only in 'Catwoman: Her Sister's
Keeper'.
It was never explictlly staed, but it was rather obvious she was
intended to
be Catholic.
Since 'CHK' is now out of continuity, I'd say we no longer know
her
religion.

> The Huntress is probably Catholic too.

I think it was stated somewhere that Helena is Catholic.
Whether this is true and still in continuity are not something I
know.

>The Gordons too mayb ?

I've never seen anything that indicates the Gordon's as Catholic.
I always felt they were Protestant. And for some reason, to me
that makes more sense then the characters being Catholic.

> any other characters have religious convictions ?

I'd guess that Jean Paul Valley is Catholic. The Order of Dumas
broke away from The Knights Templar, a Catholic order. So
unless they became a new sect of Christianity I'd say they are
still
Catholic.

Josh


Josh Dull

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Jun 8, 2001, 2:30:09 PM6/8/01
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"Brian Doyle" <brian...@afdigest.freeserve.co.uk> wrote

<snipped>

> Similarly Bruce has stated more than one that he doesn't pray,
and considering he
> worked with an angel in the JLA, I'd say that was a pretty
strong brand of aetheism
> he has there!

Or maybe he's agnostic. That seems more likely then atheism.

Josh


Chris Small

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Jun 8, 2001, 8:39:42 PM6/8/01
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Patrick2480 shrieked:

I'm not sure on what your source for Catwoman being Catholic is, so what are you
asking, exactly?

Why is she a "bad Catholic" -- a Catholic who doesn't practice? I think you'd
tread
on less shaky ground if you referred to them as 'non practicing Catholics.' I'm
sure that
'bad' Catholics don't see anything 'bad' about their behavior, which the former
term insinuates.

Or are you asking why they made a 'bad' person (a criminal) a Catholic
character?
I don't think it's of any attempt to defame the religion -- Catwoman is a
sympathetic
character, and we also have the Huntress -- a 'good guy' -- for whom Catholicism

(or at least, Christianity or religion some form) plays an intricate part of the
character.

~Chris

http://www.buzzingbean.com/chris

Chris Small

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Jun 8, 2001, 9:02:47 PM6/8/01
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Josh shrieked:
>"Brian Doyle" <brian...@afdigest.freeserve.co.uk> wrote

>> Similarly Bruce has stated more than one that he doesn't pray,
>> and considering he worked with an angel in the JLA, I'd say that was a pretty
>> strong brand of aetheism he has there!
>Or maybe he's agnostic. That seems more likely then atheism.

Kind of, but not exactly:

Atheism and agnosticism are two separate (although related) schools of thought.

Atheist means, literally, without *belief* in deities.

Agnostic means without *knowledge* of deities.

An agnostic is someone who does not claim to have knowledge. The term 'gnostic'

has been taken by a particular religious sect, but it technically means someone
who 'has knowledge' (or, at least claims to.)
What they may or may not *believe* in come secondary to this, as it refers to
knowledge, not belief.

An atheist is someone who does not have belief -- which is a different concept
form knowledge. Often (if not always) an atheist would also describe themself
as agnostic, as they do not believe in God, but
they also don't claim to know for sure. Similarly, a liberal or moderate theist
who believes in God might describe
themself as agnostic because although they may believe, they do not claim to
*know.*

Agnosticism does not have any barring on whether someone is atheist or not.

~Chris

http://www.buzzingbean.com/chris

Christopher Adams

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Jun 8, 2001, 9:19:41 PM6/8/01
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> An agnostic is someone who does not claim to have knowledge.
> The term 'gnostic' has been taken by a particular religious sect,
> but it technically means someone who 'has knowledge' (or, at
> least claims to.) What they may or may not *believe* in come
> secondary to this, as it refers to knowledge, not belief.
>
> An atheist is someone who does not have belief -- which is a
> different concept form knowledge. Often (if not always) an atheist
> would also describe themself as agnostic, as they do not believe
> in God, but they also don't claim to know for sure. Similarly, a
> liberal or moderate theist who believes in God might describe
> themself as agnostic because although they may believe, they do
> not claim to *know.*
>
> Agnosticism does not have any barring on whether someone is
> atheist or not.

Chris is totally correct, although as a caveat I would add that many
atheists out there will tell you differently, due to confusion over how far
the purview of agnosticism extends - many don't realise that it's possible
to be an atheist and an agnostic.

Sometimes it's useful to distinguish between "strong" atheism - "There is
no God!" - and "weak" atheism - "I don't believe in God." "Strong" atheism
is in fact a religious position, because one is making the positive
declaration that God does not exist, which statement there is no more
evidence for than theism, rationally speaking. "Weak" atheism is also a
form of agnosticism, in which one does not *personally* believe in God but
does not make a statement of positive *knowledge* of God's nonexistence.

There is also some confusion in what we might call, tongue-in-cheek, the
"lay" community, over agnosticism; the average man or woman on the street
would not necessarily recognise that one can be an agnostic but still
*believe* in God.

Finally, one ought to point out that agnosticism is the only strictly
*rational* position that one can hold, because only agnosticism takes into
account the incapacity, from a perspective of being able to provide
scientific, logical proof, of humanity to say anything about the existence
or nature of God.

--
Chris Adams

Join the Navy! Three squares a day
and all the gay sex you can handle.
- Mission Hill


Chris Small

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Jun 8, 2001, 9:53:33 PM6/8/01
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Christopher Adams shrieked:

>Sometimes it's useful to distinguish between "strong" atheism - "There is
>no God!" - and "weak" atheism - "I don't believe in God." "Strong" atheism
>is in fact a religious position, because one is making the positive
>declaration that God does not exist, which statement there is no more
>evidence for than theism, rationally speaking.

I'd go as far as to say that "strong" atheism is *not* atheism. Atheism
litterally means 'lack of belief' or preferably 'without belief'.
Making the assertion 'God does not exist' states a belief in something (the
non-existance of god).

It's a subtle difference, but an important one.

By far I think most atheists fall into, and concider themselves, the former
catagory anyhow.

(I hate the terms 'weak' and 'strong' in this sence, because they have
connotations beyond what they really mean in this context, but hey -- I can't
think of a better word.)

~Chris

http://www.buzzingbean.com/chris

Christopher Adams

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Jun 9, 2001, 8:15:17 AM6/9/01
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> (I hate the terms 'weak' and 'strong' in this sence, because they
> have connotations beyond what they really mean in this context,
> but hey -- I can't think of a better word.)

"Positive" atheism is "There is no God."

"Negative" atheism is "I don't believe in God."

There y'are. ;)

Matches Malone

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Jun 9, 2001, 8:22:25 AM6/9/01
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As if from nowhere, on Sat, 09 Jun 2001 00:39:42 GMT Chris Small
<cs_b...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> said

>I'm not sure on what your source for Catwoman being Catholic is, so what are you
>asking, exactly?

In the original CATWOMAN miniseries (collected under the name "Her
Sister's Keeper"), Selina was pretty clearly Catholic. Since DC no
longer considers that series canon, though, it might have changed.

--

"Oh sure, like lawyers work in big skyscrapers and have secretaries.
Look at him. He's wearing a belt! That's Hollywood for you."
- Lionel Hutz, watching L.A. Law

mat...@mindspring.com

3.1415926535897932.....

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Jun 9, 2001, 7:29:46 AM6/9/01
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In article <9fq894$ch8$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,

brian...@afdigest.freeserve.co.uk ("Brian Doyle") wrote:

> Similarly Bruce has stated more than one that he doesn't pray, and
> considering he worked with an angel in the JLA, I'd say that was a
> pretty strong brand of aetheism he has there!

To paraphrase Terry Pratchett, it'd be a bit silly to believe in Angels
when you actually work with them. It'd be like "Believing" in the
milkman, it sort of becomes less worship and more... friendship? I
mean, from the DCU heroes' PoV, of course there are Gods, but is there
much point in praying to them when the Spectre, Dr Fate, the Amazons and
countless others are wandering about quite happily co-existing?
Monotheistic religions collapse a bit under those circumstances...
__
/\thagoras
--
http://www.stsm.demon.co.uk/pythoughts/ - Updated 27/3/01

... There's no elevator to success. You have to take the stairs.

John Kenneth Fisher

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Jun 9, 2001, 11:15:42 AM6/9/01
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In article <9fq894$ch8$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Brian Doyle" <brian...@afdigest.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Similarly Bruce has stated more than one that he doesn't pray, and
> considering he
> worked with an angel in the JLA, I'd say that was a pretty strong brand of
> aetheism
> he has there!


I think Bruce thinks he IS God from time to time.

Loren Di Iorio

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Jun 9, 2001, 12:46:19 PM6/9/01
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John wrote:
: I think Bruce thinks he IS God from time to time.

<looks up from Sarina's Bat-altar and all the special
little Bat-candles she made> Um...er... Never mind. ;)

...Loren, she's even got guano-smelling Bat-incense

http://www.geocities.com/gcpdguy/ rocks like socks!


MadiHolmes

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Jun 10, 2001, 11:18:56 PM6/10/01
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>Why is she a "bad Catholic" -- a Catholic who doesn't practice? I think
>you'd
>tread
>on less shaky ground if you referred to them as 'non practicing Catholics.'
>I'm
>sure that
>'bad' Catholics don't see anything 'bad' about their behavior, which the
>former
>term insinuates.
>
>Or are you asking why they made a 'bad' person (a criminal) a Catholic
>character?
>I don't think it's of any attempt to defame the religion -- Catwoman is a
>sympathetic
>character, and we also have the Huntress -- a 'good guy' -- for whom
>Catholicism

Well, Catholicism tends to look down on prostitutes <well, except for that
whole Mary Magdalen thing...> Also being an unrepentant thief has something to
do with it.

And I wouldn't call Huntress a "good" Catholic either. Yeah, she might go 6
times a week, but she's still psycho in my book.


MadiHolmes

MadiHolmes

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Jun 12, 2001, 9:57:20 PM6/12/01
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>
>I think Bruce thinks he IS God from time to time.

Not God... just a very, very, very, very, very good Catholic

MadiHolmes

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