"Crisis and Zero" CRISIS!!!
Scott A. Edwards
Don Smith wrote:
>
> OK, someone has now made a claim that Batman's past was NOT affected by
> "Crisis" and "Zero Hour", and that continuity more or less remains constant.
>
Are you kidding? Except for The Legion of Super-Heroes, Batman (and
friends) was the -hardest- hit by Crisis and Zero Hour.
Huntress being Batman & Catwoman's daughter. Never happened (which
reminds me, whatever happened to Earth-2 Robin? He survived the Crisis
with Huntress but they never explained where he went.)
Batman discovering and facing the murder of his parents. Gone.
Catwoman having a twin sister (the Nun) and being an ex-prostitute.
Gone.
Batman having a son with Talia. Gone.
Deathstroke finding out Robin's secret identity and the excellent "City
of Assassins" storyline. Gone.
And the list goes on.
Where Crisis was used to re-write the -entire- DC universe and make it
more cohesive (ensuring that -every- hero got screwed in the re-write),
Zero was an attempt to "edit out" all the inconsistencies that had crept
in (not to mention re-boot LSH) since Crisis - mainly the ones caused by
time travel. For the most part it has had its desired effect in the
targeted storylines (ignore the past inconsistincies - they never
happened anyway). Unfortunately, Dennis O'Neil took this as an
opportunity to throw out and completely rewrite storylines that he
didn't care for.
Scott A. Edwards
Don Smith
bone...@hotmail.com (cyberBOB) wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:57:43 GMT, toled...@mail.earthlink.net.not
>(Don Smith) wrote:
>
>>OK, someone has now made a claim that Batman's past was NOT affected by
>>"Crisis" and "Zero Hour", and that continuity more or less remains constant.
>>
>>Wouldn't that mean that Superman and Batman teemed up back in the 40's and
>>50's? (After all, that IS part of Batman's history.) And wouldn't that also
>>mean that Superman existed BEFORE his first time out as Superman? (You know,
>>saving the space shuttle in the 80's!)
>>
>>Sounds like we will need a "Maximum Termination" crisis to sort things out
>>again.
>
>
>I have a question, Don. What was changed by 0 hour? I dont think much
>changed, if any.
Well, Selina Kyle no longer had ever dated Bruce Wayne. And someone said that
was explained by the Joker having brainwashed her into forgetting about it. Of
course, if that is the case, who brainwashed Batman into forgetting who
Catwoman was?
And, more importantly, did Superman and batman EVER team up as regular pals
before?
=============================================
Australia was a penal colony.
America was founded by God-fearing Puritans.
In modern Australia, women frolic topless at the beach,
and the age of consent is 16.
In modern America, Christians set off bombs to kill people
as directed by God, and 16 will get you 20.
Who do YOU think got the better deal???
=============================================
cyberBOB
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:37:46 GMT, toled...@mail.earthlink.net.not
(Don Smith) wrote:
>bone...@hotmail.com (cyberBOB) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:57:43 GMT, toled...@mail.earthlink.net.not
>>(Don Smith) wrote:
>>
>>>OK, someone has now made a claim that Batman's past was NOT affected by
>>>"Crisis" and "Zero Hour", and that continuity more or less remains constant.
>>>
>>>Wouldn't that mean that Superman and Batman teemed up back in the 40's and
>>>50's? (After all, that IS part of Batman's history.) And wouldn't that also
>>>mean that Superman existed BEFORE his first time out as Superman? (You know,
>>>saving the space shuttle in the 80's!)
>>>
>>>Sounds like we will need a "Maximum Termination" crisis to sort things out
>>>again.
>>
>>
>>I have a question, Don. What was changed by 0 hour? I dont think much
>>changed, if any.
>
>
>Well, Selina Kyle no longer had ever dated Bruce Wayne. And someone said that
>was explained by the Joker having brainwashed her into forgetting about it. Of
>course, if that is the case, who brainwashed Batman into forgetting who
>Catwoman was?
>
>And, more importantly, did Superman and batman EVER team up as regular pals
>before?
Oh, I thought that Catwoman thing and Superman/Bat team was a product
or chrisis
Nathan Kennedy
It was.
cyberBOB wrote:
--
"I do it for the weak, and the scared, and the oppressed. I do it for the victims - the
innocent - the abused. I do it to try to end the suffering ... and I do it for the nobodies" -
Batman.
(Batman: Shadow of the Bat #13).
Vincent J. Murphy
In article <33CC4C...@concentric.net>,
Scott A. Edwards <ma...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Don Smith wrote:
>>
>> OK, someone has now made a claim that Batman's past was NOT affected by
>> "Crisis" and "Zero Hour", and that continuity more or less remains constant.
>>
>
>friends) was the -hardest- hit by Crisis and Zero Hour.
>
>Huntress being Batman & Catwoman's daughter. Never happened (which
>reminds me, whatever happened to Earth-2 Robin? He survived the Crisis
>with Huntress but they never explained where he went.)
Actually they were killed (along with Kole (of the Titans))
is a throwaway panel or two in Crisis. Though the bodies
were supposedly never found, Roy Thomas had an All-Star Squad
story which (I believe) retconned the "no bodies were found"
and gave the two a proper burial.
>Batman discovering and facing the murder of his parents. Gone.
This was a Zero Hour retcon, I believe.
>Batman having a son with Talia. Gone.
Thankfully.
VJM
cyberBOB
then what changed as a product of JUST 0-hour?
>It was.
>
>cyberBOB wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:37:46 GMT, toled...@mail.earthlink.net.not
>> (Don Smith) wrote:
>>
>> >bone...@hotmail.com (cyberBOB) wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:57:43 GMT, toled...@mail.earthlink.net.not
>> >>(Don Smith) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>OK, someone has now made a claim that Batman's past was NOT affected by
>> >>>"Crisis" and "Zero Hour", and that continuity more or less remains constant.
>> >>>
DKM
cyberBOB wrote:
>
> then what changed as a product of JUST 0-hour?
>
Circle out.
DKM
RMorris306
<<Wouldn't that mean that Superman and Batman teemed up back in the 40's
and 50's? (After all, that IS part of Batman's history.) And wouldn't that
also mean that Superman existed BEFORE his first time out as Superman?
(You know, saving the space shuttle in the 80's!)>>
No, DC's *always* fudged the years. Even in the '60's, they didn't
claim Batman (or especially Robin) had been around since 1939 and 1940.
Besides, I was referring to Batman's solo stories; obviously crossovers
with characters MORE affected by Crisis and Zero Hour, like Superman,
would be out. (Just as this Batman was never an honorary member of the
Justice Society during World War II.)
<<Well, Selina Kyle no longer had ever dated Bruce Wayne. And someone said
that was explained by the Joker having brainwashed her into forgetting
about it. Of course, if that is the case, who brainwashed Batman into
forgetting who
Catwoman was?>>
I actually asked that at a San Diego Con a few years ago. Their
reply? A very minor memory loss due to the pounding Bane gave him during
"Knightfall." (And it's not completely gone, especially on a subconscious
level...in the second World's Finest crossover (definitely post-Crisis and
post-ZH), Batman at one point calls Catwoman "Selina.")
<<Huntress being Batman & Catwoman's daughter. Never happened (which
reminds me, whatever happened to Earth-2 Robin? He survived the Crisis
with Huntress but they never explained where he went.).>>
That was the Earth-2 continuity. Even without Crisis, if they'd
introduced an Earth-1 Huntress, she'd presumably have had a different
origin, as the current one does.
<<Batman discovering and facing the murder of his parents. Gone.>>
We've kicked this back and forth again and again; suffice it to say
that I don't find the fact that the Joe Chill of an alternate Earth where
*Bruce* was killed had an alleged alibi (His live-in girlfriend said he
hadn't been out in three days. Sure. And a random burglar killed O.J.
Simpson's ex-wife and her friend because Kato Kaelin vouched for him.) to
be at all convincing.
<<Catwoman having a twin sister (the Nun) and being an ex-prostitute.
Gone.>>
How do we know? (Although, I must admit, I wouldn't be sorry to see
Mindy Newell's Catwoman stories...especially that dreadful one killing off
Holly, upon which Catwoman killed two innocent men...relegated to
oblivion.)
<<Batman having a son with Talia. Gone.>>
That was always questionable anyway, even though the kid reappeared in
both Batman: Brotherhood of the Bat and Kingdom Come...both Elseworlds
stories set in the future...
<<Deathstroke finding out Robin's secret identity and the excellent "City
of Assassins" storyline. Gone.>>
<<Where Crisis was used to re-write the -entire- DC universe and make it
more cohesive (ensuring that -every- hero got screwed in the re-write),
Zero was an attempt to "edit out" all the inconsistencies that had crept
in (not to mention re-boot LSH)...
(as well as re-booting Captain Marvel/Power of Shazam...not noticed as
much because *nobody* liked the post-Crisis version by Roy Thomas...)
<<since Crisis - mainly the ones caused by time travel. For the most
part it has had its desired effect in the
targeted storylines (ignore the past inconsistincies - they never happened
anyway). Unfortunately, Dennis O'Neil took this as an opportunity to
throw out and completely rewrite storylines that he didn't care for.>>
Not really. He just ignores stories he doesn't care for, but he's not
as dogmatic about them as, say, Mike Carlin on the Superman books. For one
thing, he doesn't want Batman *too* closely associated with the SF aspects
of the greater DC Universe, or its characters (otherwise we'd constantly
face questions like why, after Bruce's back got broken, Superman didn't
fly down to Gotham and throw Bane in jail before he could blink), so he
can't rely *too* much on something like Crisis or Zero Hour.
Rich Morrissey
Don Smith
rmorr...@aol.com (RMorris306) wrote:
>
><<Wouldn't that mean that Superman and Batman teemed up back in the 40's
>and 50's? (After all, that IS part of Batman's history.) And wouldn't that
>also mean that Superman existed BEFORE his first time out as Superman?
>(You know, saving the space shuttle in the 80's!)>>
>
> No, DC's *always* fudged the years. Even in the '60's, they didn't
>claim Batman (or especially Robin) had been around since 1939 and 1940.
>Besides, I was referring to Batman's solo stories; obviously crossovers
>with characters MORE affected by Crisis and Zero Hour, like Superman,
>would be out. (Just as this Batman was never an honorary member of the
>Justice Society during World War II.)
>
><<Well, Selina Kyle no longer had ever dated Bruce Wayne. And someone said
>that was explained by the Joker having brainwashed her into forgetting
>about it. Of course, if that is the case, who brainwashed Batman into
>forgetting who
>Catwoman was?>>
>
> I actually asked that at a San Diego Con a few years ago. Their
>reply? A very minor memory loss due to the pounding Bane gave him during
>"Knightfall." (And it's not completely gone, especially on a subconscious
>level...in the second World's Finest crossover (definitely post-Crisis and
>post-ZH), Batman at one point calls Catwoman "Selina.")
PUKE!
>
><<Huntress being Batman & Catwoman's daughter. Never happened (which
>reminds me, whatever happened to Earth-2 Robin? He survived the Crisis
>with Huntress but they never explained where he went.).>>
>
> That was the Earth-2 continuity. Even without Crisis, if they'd
>introduced an Earth-1 Huntress, she'd presumably have had a different
>origin, as the current one does.
>
><<Batman discovering and facing the murder of his parents. Gone.>>
>
> We've kicked this back and forth again and again; suffice it to say
>that I don't find the fact that the Joe Chill of an alternate Earth where
>*Bruce* was killed had an alleged alibi (His live-in girlfriend said he
>hadn't been out in three days. Sure. And a random burglar killed O.J.
>Simpson's ex-wife and her friend because Kato Kaelin vouched for him.) to
>be at all convincing.
>
><<Catwoman having a twin sister (the Nun) and being an ex-prostitute.
>Gone.>>
>
> How do we know? (Although, I must admit, I wouldn't be sorry to see
>Mindy Newell's Catwoman stories...especially that dreadful one killing off
>Holly, upon which Catwoman killed two innocent men...relegated to
>oblivion.)
Because the Zero Hour Catwoman story made her an only-child
who grew up in an orphanage.
>
><<Batman having a son with Talia. Gone.>>
>
> That was always questionable anyway, even though the kid reappeared in
>both Batman: Brotherhood of the Bat and Kingdom Come...both Elseworlds
>stories set in the future...
Oh, that wasn't questionable at all. Unless DC had some
random kid being dumped on a doorstep to intentionally fool
you, it happened.
>
><<Deathstroke finding out Robin's secret identity and the excellent "City
>of Assassins" storyline. Gone.>>
>
><<Where Crisis was used to re-write the -entire- DC universe and make it
>more cohesive (ensuring that -every- hero got screwed in the re-write),
>Zero was an attempt to "edit out" all the inconsistencies that had crept
>in (not to mention re-boot LSH)...
>
> (as well as re-booting Captain Marvel/Power of Shazam...not noticed as
>much because *nobody* liked the post-Crisis version by Roy Thomas...)
>
> <<since Crisis - mainly the ones caused by time travel. For the most
>part it has had its desired effect in the
>targeted storylines (ignore the past inconsistincies - they never happened
>anyway). Unfortunately, Dennis O'Neil took this as an opportunity to
>throw out and completely rewrite storylines that he didn't care for.>>
>
> Not really. He just ignores stories he doesn't care for, but he's not
>as dogmatic about them as, say, Mike Carlin on the Superman books. For one
>thing, he doesn't want Batman *too* closely associated with the SF aspects
>of the greater DC Universe, or its characters (otherwise we'd constantly
>face questions like why, after Bruce's back got broken, Superman didn't
>fly down to Gotham and throw Bane in jail before he could blink), so he
>can't rely *too* much on something like Crisis or Zero Hour.
>
>Rich Morrissey
=============================================
Today's (7/23/97) Bible Fak-toid:
(A "Family Values" Special!)
"After fleeing the destruction of Sodom, Lot and his
two virgin daughters end up living in a cave. The
daughters worry that now they'll never find husbands
and have children. So they get their father drunk
and have sex with him."
Genesis 19:30-36
Plagerized from Ken's Guide To The Bible
by Ken Smith, available via order from Barnes
and Noble or other good bookstores.
It is worth every penny of the $7.95 price!
=============================================
Specter722
which issue is it in where batman calls catwoman selina?
a wondering specter
-thanks!
RMorris306
<<Because the Zero Hour Catwoman story made her an only-child who grew up
in an orphanage.>>
Do we KNOW she was an only child? Authorities have been known to
separate orphan brothers or sisters...
<<<HTML>which issue is it in where batman calls catwoman selina? a
wondering specter-thanks!>>
WORLD'S FINEST II (the series painted by Dan Brereton; I forget the
name of the writer offhand...Walt Simonson, maybe?) #2 had a fight in
Gotham City between Batman (losing his edge because he no longer dreamed
of his parents' death) and several of his villains in a manhole. He called
"Selina!" as the Catwoman vanished...
Rich
cyberBOB
> Also in this issue, Superman is privy to Batman's dream, where he is
> called by his name; "Bruce."
> Later, in reality, Supes calls Bruce by his name. He fly's off and
> Batman says, "Mm.. Clark."
> Now, this can be interpreted two ways (1) Batman and Superman are old
> friends and they are relieved, so they call each other by their names
> after a frightening ordeal. Or (2) Superman only learned that Batman's
> name was Bruce in the dream and is chiding Bruce with it, after which
> Batman speaks Superman's name which he has known for quite awhile. He is
> the worlds greatest detective, after all.
Most of the heros in the JLA know what there "secret identies" are.
1. All know WW is Diana
2. Most know Bruce is Batman
3. Almost all know Supes is Clark
4. They all know GL is Kyle
any others?
Specter722
ah, thanks!
DarkBlue21
>which issue is it in where batman calls catwoman selina?
I don't know the answer to this question, but I thought I'd be a way to
bring up the latest issue of JLA (#9).
I'm not too clear on all the intricieces of post-Zero Hour continuity,
so these might seem like hollow points/questions.
In this issue, Batman and the other heroes are incapacitated in
dream-like productions of their own minds. In Batman's "future" he is
married to a woman named Selina, who was obviously Catwoman.
The question this brings up, is wether or not Bruce actually knows that
Selina is Catwoman or if he is just making a fanciful connection to his
subconcious desires?
Also in this issue, Superman is privy to Batman's dream, where he is
called by his name; "Bruce."
Later, in reality, Supes calls Bruce by his name. He fly's off and
Batman says, "Mm.. Clark."
Now, this can be interpreted two ways (1) Batman and Superman are old
friends and they are relieved, so they call each other by their names
after a frightening ordeal. Or (2) Superman only learned that Batman's
name was Bruce in the dream and is chiding Bruce with it, after which
Batman speaks Superman's name which he has known for quite awhile. He is
the worlds greatest detective, after all.
So my question is, which interpretation is supported by modern,
post-Zero Hour, post-Crisis continuity?
-DarkBlue-
Nathan Kennedy
The Superman storyline "Dark Knight Over Metropolis" in Superman #44, AOS #467 and AC #654 will
give you your answers.
DarkBlue21 wrote:
--
TimJPriebe
>Most of the heros in the JLA know what there "secret identies" are.
>1. All know WW is Diana
>2. Most know Bruce is Batman
>3. Almost all know Supes is Clark
>4. They all know GL is Kyle
>any others?
That's not even close to true. While all know WW is Diana, relatively few
know 2, 3, or 4. Kyle was even surprised to find out that his *mother*
found out his secret.
Tim