Should Barbara Gordon be healed?
Leonard Sidiski
love the character of Oracle for lots of reasons. She's a strong female
character, beautiful but not cheese-cakey, and a hero who relies on brains
and not violence. I do NOT want to see her turn into a late twenty-something
(or is she thirtysomething?) Batgirl, or a super-powered Bat-woman. I don't
want to see her take Kyle's ring in a fit of irritation over his
ineffectuallness and become Green Lantern. I don't want to see her go crazy,
start shooting people from her window with a sniper rifle, murder some
heros, get killed, and come back as the first female Spectre. That being
said...
The ability to walk wouldn't stop her from being Oracle. I can think of so
many ways to get her on her feet again that the question of why it hasn't
been done is a serious mystery.
For example:
WW learns of her disability and, impressed with her work as a JLAer, gives
her a zap with that purple ray.
Bruce finally gives her a referral to the guy who fixed his back.
She calls up Zatanna. niaga krow sgel!
Mr. Miracle lends her some New Genesis medical technology.
Project Cadmus grows her a new spine using cloning technology and implants
it.
Project Cadmus grows her a whole new body and implants her head in it.
They do the same thing they did to let Dudley Soams walk around with his
head turned around the wrong way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
We could have a nice story or two of her trying to be a roof-crawling,
brawling, traditional hero for a bit, then realizing she does more good as
Oracle. And then the thinking hero would think because she's a thinker- not
because she's disabled.
Anyone like this idea? Dislike it? Any thoughts? ANy more ideas how to heal
her?
Loren Di Iorio
: The ability to walk wouldn't stop her from being Oracle. I can think of
: so many ways to get her on her feet again that the question of why it
: hasn't been done is a serious mystery.
Quite so; Chuck said that specific issue will be addressed very clearly
in BoP within the year...I think he said somewhere around #25, IIRC.
: Anyone like this idea? Dislike it? Any thoughts? Any more ideas how
: to heal her?
All those people you mentioned could heal her, but she doesn't *want*
to be healed, as she's said so many times. There's something going on
in her mind that she hasn't dealt with yet completely, and it won't be
long before we find out what that is.
...Loren
Chris
> Ok, I know the "should Babs" line of questions has been done to death.
> I do love the character of Oracle for lots of reasons. She's a strong
> female character, beautiful but not cheese-cakey, and a hero who
> relies on brains and not violence. I do NOT want to see her turn into
> a late twenty-something (or is she thirtysomething?) Batgirl, or a
> super-powered Bat-woman. I don't want to see her take Kyle's ring in a
> fit of irritation over his ineffectuallness and become Green Lantern.
> I don't want to see her go crazy, start shooting people from her
> window with a sniper rifle, murder some heros, get killed, and come
> back as the first female Spectre. That being said...
I agree so far...
> The ability to walk wouldn't stop her from being Oracle. I can think
> of so many ways to get her on her feet again that the question of why
> it hasn't been done is a serious mystery.
>
> For example:
> WW learns of her disability and, impressed with her work as a JLAer,
> gives her a zap with that purple ray.
Ech... No, Wonder Woman isn't a figure in the regular bat-books, and
should be kept away.
> Bruce finally gives her a referral to the guy who fixed his back.
The *woman* who fixed his back has reverted to an infantile state of
mind. I think her brother is dead.
> She calls up Zatanna. niaga krow sgel!
Ech... No, Zatanna usually isn't a figure in the regular bat-books, has
become much more of a 'spandx-superhero', and should be kept away.
> Mr. Miracle lends her some New Genesis medical technology.
Ech... No, The New Gods aren't figures in the regular bat-books, and
should be kept away.
> Project Cadmus grows her a new spine using cloning technology and
> implants it.
Ech... No, Project Cadmus isn't an organization in the regular
bat-books, and should be kept away.
> Project Cadmus grows her a whole new body and implants her head in it.
Ech... No, Project Cadmus isn't an organization in the regular
bat-books, and should be kept away.
I don't understand why so many people are set on the 'it happened
elsewhere in DC, so it should happen in this book too!'
Batman is a very different character then most of the DCU, and really
doesn't work well interacting with most of it's characters. (with a few
exceptions.) I feel that the bat-books should be kept out of the DCU
for the most part. He's fine as a supporting character in JLA, but
having all those silly aliens and demi-gods running around Gotham in the
regular books would spoil them completely.
Besides, if you use *some* of the technology in one instance, or say
'it's silly Y's not healed, because X was elsewhere!' then why aren't
they doing it everytime? Why, when there's a hidden bomb in the city,
wouldn't Batman call in the Flash everytime? The Killer Croc escapes?
Superman takes care of the problem. This would absolutely ruin the
books, and spoil the integrity of the character. AFAIC, they should be
left alone in their respective books, unless there's a good story to
write with them together.
> They do the same thing they did to let Dudley Soams walk around with
> his head turned around the wrong way.
I suspect that he was under very different circumstances, and was
operated on immediately after the... 'accident'.
> We could have a nice story or two of her trying to be a roof-crawling,
> brawling, traditional hero for a bit, then realizing she does more
> good as Oracle. And then the thinking hero would think because she's a
> thinker- not because she's disabled.
> Anyone like this idea? Dislike it? Any thoughts?
I dislike it. Here's a paragraph from a recent post of mine on the
subject:
-----
With Oracle, we have an amazing character. She's a female with a strong
personality, and isn't treated as a sex object. She's a character based
on intelligence, not physical ability or appearance. *** And she's a
great example of someone who has overcome her shortcomings. ***
Healing, super-powering, or otherwise changing her at this point would
be a shameful waste of a great character, *** not to mention saying
something uncomfortable about quadriplegics. ***
-----
~Chris
This guarded mode of existence was like living under a tyranny.
People's speech, their voices, their very glances, became furtive
and repressed. Every individual taste, every natural appetite, was
bridled by caution. The people asleep in those houses, I thought,
tried to live like mice in their own kitchens; to make no noise, to
leave no trace, to slip over the surface of things in the dark.
-Willa Cather
"My Ántonia"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
The Man Who Fell to Earth
i
w
a
n
t
m
y
i
w
a
n
t
m
y
m
t
v
This is from the March issue of Previews:
BIRDS OF PREY #19
WRITTEN BY CHUCK DIXON; ART AND COVER BY BUTCH GUICE
In stores May 10. The prelude to the 4-part "The Hunt for Oracle" crossover
with NIGHTWING, guest-starring Robin! It's a strange night in the life of
Oracle when practically every important man in her life visits the clocktower at
the same time! And one of them learns the secret she's been
keeping for years. Meanwhile, Black Canary is on the hunt for a weapons lab in
Hasaragua, but the seemingly simple mission turns into the
beginning of the deadliest night of her life.
FC, 32 PG. $1.99*
Do your own speculation as to what the 'secret she's been hiding' is. You see,
comics often aren't very subtle, kind of like Soap Operas, it's either the event
that they've been foreshadowing for weeks, or it's something completely
arbitrary. You do know that Babs has been faking being a paraplegic all these
years, right? ;-)
--the man who fell to earth
KRothst402
character has to remain sick. If Batman can do it, she can too.
Ok, thats the simple version, here is the longer one...
There is no good reason why she shouldnt walk again in a comic series that has
seen people overcome snapped spines (are we to say Batmans spine wasnt snapped
when he was bent like a pretzel over Bane's knee?), the character of Oracle
could continue and she could get a palm pilot, and we could be rid of this
false notion that a character in a wheelchair is some kind of social statement.
And frankly, I think its a joke people find Oracle such an intriguing
character. Correct me if I am wrong, but basically isnt she just a combination
of the Bat computer and walkie talkies? I mean, what does she offer Batman
that the computer in the trunk of his car couldnt provide, or the computer in
his belt, or whatever else he has in there?
Patrick Thompson
news:20000329060541...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> And frankly, I think its a joke people find Oracle such an intriguing
> character. Correct me if I am wrong, but basically isnt she just a
combination
> of the Bat computer and walkie talkies? I mean, what does she offer
Batman
> that the computer in the trunk of his car couldnt provide, or the computer
in
> his belt, or whatever else he has in there?
Abilities and character are rather separate entities. Yes, most of what she
does to assist Batman could be done by the Bat-Computer, but the Bat
Computer is not a character. It doesn't face moral quandaries, or find its
allegiances town between Batman and Gordon, or get its feeling s hurt, or
flirt with his ex-sidekicks...those are elements of character.
Chris
> KRothst wrote
>> And frankly, I think its a joke people find Oracle such an intriguing
>> character. Correct me if I am wrong, but basically isnt she just a
>> combination of the Bat computer and walkie talkies? I mean, what does
>> she offer Batman that the computer in the trunk of his car couldnt
>> provide, or the computer in his belt, or whatever else he has in
>> there?
>
> Abilities and character are rather separate entities. Yes, most of
> what she does to assist Batman could be done by the Bat-Computer, but
> the Bat Computer is not a character. It doesn't face moral quandaries,
> or find its allegiances town between Batman and Gordon, or get its
> feeling s hurt, or flirt with his ex-sidekicks...those are elements of
> character.
I couldn't have said it better myself...
~Chris
Leonard Sidiski
Chris wrote in message <8bs19n$o0o$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Leonard Sidiski wrote:
Silly parts snipped
>Batman is a very different character then most of the DCU, and really
>doesn't work well interacting with most of it's characters. (with a few
>exceptions.) I feel that the bat-books should be kept out of the DCU
>for the most part. He's fine as a supporting character in JLA, but
>having all those silly aliens and demi-gods running around Gotham in the
>regular books would spoil them completely.
>
I agree that the DC books are separate entities, and that the Bat-books are
their own little world, mostly set apart from the rest of the DCU. However,
that doesn't mean that the appearance of a character or idea from outside of
Gotham can't ever work. Clearly, Metropolis, Gorilla City, Keystone City,
and
the rest of the super-heroic parts of the DC world do still exist as far as
Bruce
is concerned.
>Besides, if you use *some* of the technology in one instance, or say
>'it's silly Y's not healed, because X was elsewhere!' then why aren't
>they doing it everytime? Why, when there's a hidden bomb in the city,
>wouldn't Batman call in the Flash everytime? The Killer Croc escapes?
>Superman takes care of the problem. This would absolutely ruin the
>books, and spoil the integrity of the character. AFAIC, they should be
>left alone in their respective books, unless there's a good story to
>write with them together.
>
Except in the case of huge impending disasters of cataclysmic,
world-breaking
scale, I'd assume that Flash, Superman, WW, and the rest of the
spandex-brigade
have their own problems. Also recall that pride is a big part of Bruce's
character.
He wants to show everyone - himself included - that he can handle Gotham
on his own. We still should remember that the rest of the world exists, and
can be
called on in extreme circumstances. I don't think BoP suffered, for example,
when
Babs called Superman in to help with Joe Gardner.
<<MORE SNIPPAGE>>
>-----
>With Oracle, we have an amazing character. She's a female with a strong
>personality, and isn't treated as a sex object. She's a character based
>on intelligence, not physical ability or appearance. *** And she's a
>great example of someone who has overcome her shortcomings. ***
>
>Healing, super-powering, or otherwise changing her at this point would
>be a shameful waste of a great character, *** not to mention saying
>something uncomfortable about quadriplegics. ***
Two points here. One, shortcomings don't have to be as blatant and unsubtle
as
a physical disability. I'm sure Babs'd still have issues stemming from being
shot down in cold blood by the Joker. In recent issues of BoP, we've seen
some chinks in her armor. She was fooled at least once, and has suffered
some
self-doubt and some real feelings of concern and helplessness when Dinah was
in danger (especially in the Apokolips issue). To me, these are much more
real
shortcomings and obstacles to overcome.
Finally, I don't see how a cure says something uncomfortable about
quadriplegics. I
do believe that there is such a thing as being too sensitive. As a member of
the JLA,
Babs has access to pretty much the entire DCU pajama-police fraternity.
There are easilly
a half-dozen realistic, simple ways for Babs to get herself healed. The fact
that she doesn;t
hints to me that DC is artificially letting a character stay handicapped
just to make the
disabled feel better about themselves. And that I find uncomforable,
Rayctate
>healed. The fact that she doesn't hints to >me that DC is artificially letting
a >character stay handicapped just to make >the disabled feel better about
themselves.
Thank you, Leonard. I've been saying this for years. In fact those physically
challenged have also written in to DC and have asked that Barbara be given the
leave to rise out of her wheel-chair.
Ray
"I'm half-human, on my mother's side."--The eighth Doctor
KRothst402
> Yes, most of what she
>does to assist Batman could be done by the Bat-Computer, but the Bat
>Computer is not a character. It doesn't face moral quandaries, or find its
>allegiances town between Batman and Gordon, or get its feeling s hurt, or
>flirt with his ex-sidekicks...those are elements of character.
Fine, then Barbara Gordon fans should have no problem with her getting her legs
back and reassuming the role of Batgirl. She can still be faced with whatever
quanderies she is faced with, but actually be a fully equal heroine when
compared to everyone else, and not the main cheerleader she is today.
But post after post from Oracle fans show they want her to stay as Oracle, as
if being Oracle, a glorified secratary or Lt Uhura, is somehow a goal onto
itself. By all means Barbara Gordon should be an interesting character, but in
her role as a living incarnation of Netcape or Internet Explorer, she is hardly
that.
I actually never had a problem with her as Batgirl. She had a different
motivation from the rest of the bat cast, wasn't depressed, angry or glum, and
was a refreshing change. Now, she is just another in a long list of Bat
characters with something to whine about. I would add the new Batgirl to that
list, but that muy fascinating character (she with the no voice or facial
expressions) doesn't speak much. Plus, since they decided she should wear a
black monotone costume in a city filled with black backgrounds, I can't even
find her.
Heal Barbara, have a happy ending for once, and return her as the high kicking
"daredoll" that was in it for the kicks (so to speak). I am sure interesting
stories can be told about someone who isn't miserable. Give some variety to
the bat books and give the readers a character who actually enjoys being a
superhero.
Loren Di Iorio
: Leonard wrote:
:
: > There are easily a half-dozen realistic, simple ways for Babs to get
: > herself healed. The fact that she doesn't hints to me that DC is
: > artificially letting a character stay handicapped just to make the
: > disabled feel better about themselves.
:
: Thank you, Leonard. I've been saying this for years. In fact those
: physically challenged have also written in to DC and have asked that
: Barbara be given the leave to rise out of her wheel-chair.
Though I wouldn't have said it quite like that, I fear that DC's
keeping Babs on like that almost for the sake of having a token
person in a wheelchair.
Don't misunderstand me when I say that, though - it's not that they're
not handling her well, we just haven't been given any good reason why
she *doesn't* want to be healed (aside from not wanting to be robotic).
Oppositely, it's not like they're making a big deal out of her being
in a wheelchair, either. As most anyone therein would tell you, it's
something people just accept, and they get on with their life, as Babs
has done.
Maybe I'm just impatient, trying to figure out why she doesn't want
an out yet. We'll find out what that's all about in a few months...
...Loren
Loren Di Iorio
: I don't think BoP suffered, for example, when Babs called Superman in
: to help with Joe Gardner.
It certainly did (I believe)! Babs attempted to kill Joe, and only
after her murderous intent did she decide to call in Superman. That's
a big deus ex machina, if ever I saw one.
...Loren
Loren Di Iorio
: Fine, then Barbara Gordon fans should have no problem with her getting
: her legs back and reassuming the role of Batgirl.
As Chris recently stated, Babs doesn't want to be Batgirl. She retired
from the role before TKJ. Like she said in BoP #8, it was nice to be up
in the air again, but it's not something she was ready for, 'cause she
had many things to come to terms with; moreover, though she was obviously
immensely upset over her injury, she nevertheless accepts it, and is
content with who she is and what she's doing.
[re: Cassie]
: Plus, since they decided she should wear a black monotone costume in a
: city filled with black backgrounds, I can't even find her.
Nice one! ;)
...Loren
KRothst402
>Ken wrote:
>: Fine, then Barbara Gordon fans should have no problem with her getting
>: her legs back and reassuming the role of Batgirl.
>
>As Chris recently stated, Babs doesn't want to be Batgirl.
That's a cop-out I think. Babs doesn't any more not want to be Batgirl than
she wants to be Oracle. The writers decide what she wants and with a moment's
notice she could want to be Batgirl or walk again.
Wayne Hotu
Leonard Sidiski wrote:
>The ability to walk wouldn't stop her from being Oracle. I can think of so
> many ways to get her on her feet again that the question of why it hasn't
> been done is a serious mystery.
>
> For example:
> WW learns of her disability and, impressed with her work as a JLAer, gives
> her a zap with that purple ray.
>
> Bruce finally gives her a referral to the guy who fixed his back.
>
> She calls up Zatanna. niaga krow sgel!
>
> Mr. Miracle lends her some New Genesis medical technology.
>
> Project Cadmus grows her a new spine using cloning technology and implants
> it.
>
> Project Cadmus grows her a whole new body and implants her head in it.
>
> They do the same thing they did to let Dudley Soams walk around with his
> head turned around the wrong way.
You're forgetting that great Batman's broken-back cop-out, Shondra Kinsolving!
;)
What happened to her anyway?
T.T.F.N.
Wayne
The Man Who Fell to Earth
She was mentally regressed and should be about 7 or 8 years old now. Besides, her
brother's dead.
--tmwfte
Leonard Sidiski
KRothst402 wrote in message
<20000331125538...@ng-ck1.aol.com>...
The other point here is that wanting to be batgirl and wanting to be healed
are two very different things. I work at what is essentially a desk job. I
don't climb rooftops, kick people in the head, or do much heavy lifting of
any kind. I do, however, have the full use of my legs. If I lost them for
any reason, I'd want them back.
In other words, why can't she be healed AND be Oracle? THat's what would
make most sense to me.
noit...@hotmail.com
kroth...@aol.com (KRothst402) wrote:
> I think she should get her legs back. I see no reason why in comics this one
> character has to remain sick. If Batman can do it, she can too.
>
> Ok, thats the simple version, here is the longer one...
>
> There is no good reason why she shouldnt walk again in a comic series that has
> seen people overcome snapped spines (are we to say Batmans spine wasnt snapped
> when he was bent like a pretzel over Bane's knee?), the character of Oracle
> could continue and she could get a palm pilot, and we could be rid of this
> false notion that a character in a wheelchair is some kind of social statement.
>
> character. Correct me if I am wrong, but basically isnt she just a combination
> of the Bat computer and walkie talkies? I mean, what does she offer Batman
> that the computer in the trunk of his car couldnt provide, or the computer in
> his belt, or whatever else he has in there?
>
Good points. Personally, I think she is a great fit in the Batman books, but
she is annoying and I personally would prefer seeing her knocked off. That
is not going to happen, but I think that her overall niche is so strong that
I would hate to see her walk again. That wheel chair does make me
uncomfortable, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.
As for how she could recover her legs? I have solution in keeping with
current medicine that is not far-fetched. Nerves in the brain and spine
would repair themselves naturally if not for blockers that prevent it. Block
the blockers, and your nerves grow back. A little surgery, Barbara is back
on her feet.
noit...@hotmail.com
yu21...@yorku.ca wrote:
> Though I wouldn't have said it quite like that, I fear that DC's
> keeping Babs on like that almost for the sake of having a token
> person in a wheelchair.
>
> Don't misunderstand me when I say that, though - it's not that they're
> not handling her well, we just haven't been given any good reason why
> she *doesn't* want to be healed (aside from not wanting to be robotic).
>
> Oppositely, it's not like they're making a big deal out of her being
> in a wheelchair, either. As most anyone therein would tell you, it's
> something people just accept, and they get on with their life, as Babs
> has done.
>
Remember when she saw Huntress as Batgirl? THere was some stuff made about
her being in a chair then. One thing about her being in a wheelchair does is
touch a nerve. A wheelchair means loss of freedom, and that is something
that we, the young, hale and hearty readers of comics, fear. We want to
believe there is escape. That is why we read comics. By her not getting
release, that makes us care about her a little more. Take her out of the
chair, and you would take away a lot of what has caused us to care. SHe
would be free, but the longing for her to be free would be lost.
noit...@hotmail.com
Koby The Interactive Circus Bear!
>As Chris recently stated, Babs doesn't want to be Batgirl. She retired
>from the role before TKJ. Like she said in BoP #8, it was nice to be up
>in the air again, but it's not something she was ready for, 'cause she
>had many things to come to terms with; moreover, though she was obviously
>immensely upset over her injury, she nevertheless accepts it, and is
>content with who she is and what she's doing.
Would YOU rather stay crippled, given the choice?
Koby The Interactive Circus Bear!
>Heal Barbara, have a happy ending for once, and return her as the high kicking
>"daredoll" that was in it for the kicks (so to speak). I am sure interesting
>stories can be told about someone who isn't miserable.
Heretic!
We're BATMAN fans, remember? ;)
-- Peter Destructo
"P.S. iPH u WaNTS Me To SPeLL Yo' NaMe WiT' a DoLLa SiGN, u GoTS To
eaRN iT." - Da Rom King
"Sometimes I pretend I'm a circus bear..." - Jester's weirdo roommate
Thomas Chen
paralyzed or crippled any way would not help you in life. Given that, how
can anybody want to choose to be crippled in some way?
other than for some strained philosophical reason...
(ie., not want to be rich because of the worries of thieves, not want to be
smart because you'd never work hard....etc)
: Would YOU rather stay crippled, given the choice?
I dunno, I've never been vigilanting off rooftops into the open air,
falling at wicked speeds, nor have I been shot by a madman just for
opening my front door, nor have I been in a wheelchair for a number
of years, so I can't rightly say.
...Loren
KRothst402
>Would YOU rather stay crippled, given the choice?
Of course not. No one would. It seems so silly that comic writers and editors
have rewritten every aspect of Batman to make it more realistic but are content
to remain in fantasy land about this. Christopher Reeve doesn't accept it, all
the people who are paraded on a Jerry Lewis telethon don't accpet it, and why
should Babs? In DC, they have the technology to cure her, so why not do it and
bring a storyline to a sensible conclusion? I could see if this was 30 years
ago and DC science was not able to do this, but Babs being content to be
paralyzed is idiotic.
Loren Di Iorio
: Loren wrote:
:
: > Babs doesn't want to be Batgirl. She retired from the role before
: > TKJ. Like she said in BoP #8, it was nice to be up in the air again,
: > but it's not something she was ready for, 'cause she had many things
: > to come to terms with; moreover, though she was obviously immensely
: > upset over her injury, she nevertheless accepts it, and is content
: > with who she is and what she's doing.
Loren Di Iorio
: Loren wrote:
: > Koby wrote:
:
: >> Would YOU rather stay crippled, given the choice?
:
: > I dunno, I've never been vigilanting off rooftops into the open air,
: > falling at wicked speeds, nor have I been shot by a madman just for
: > opening my front door, nor have I been in a wheelchair for a number
: > of years, so I can't rightly say.
: Even if you don't know, you should have the common sense to know that
: being paralyzed or crippled any way would not help you in life. Given
: that, how can anybody want to choose to be crippled in some way?
Well, that would've been the answer Koby expected me to give, so why
should I just give into common sense? ;)
I took into consideration the fact that Babs has got some unresolved
issues, issues which I know almost nothing about, and since I don't
know about them, I couldn't comment on being in her position either way.
...Loren
3.1415926535897932.....
discussion...
One of the things about fiction is that it is escapism. Some people
like their escapism to be overwhelmingly positive, where the bad guy
gets his comeuppance, the good guy gets the girl and everybody lives
happily ever after. Some people prefer their escapism to be grim and
gritty, where death, dispair and terror are the mainstays of the story.
Some people, on the other hand, enjoy a mix of both, and I'd argue that
the Bat-books fall into this last catagory.
If Batman was un-troubled, carefree and had no problems in his life,
then the character would be much diluted, as we are essentially reading
about one man's struggle *against* the world, trying to make it a better
place, etc etc. I'd also suggest that the rest of his supporting cast
have similar problems that they try to overcome, right the way through
from the GCPD to the "Bat-Family". Babs' disability, while it doesn't
define her character, has shaped it in a very specific way, and her
attitude creates a positive role-model both for the disabled, but also
for readers in general.
Sure, the writers/editors could create a thousand ways for Babs to
regain the use of her legs (either by using the DCU in general, or
keeping the explaination within the style of the slightly isolated
Bat-books), and I'm sure that this would make a lot of people happy.
They could write her going back to being Batgirl, or carrying on as
Oracle, or anything, and make her happier because she had the use of
her legs. They're writers. It's easy. They make it up!
But for me, one of the things I love about Babs is that I admire her,
both for her "attitude" towards her disability, and also for her
"stubborn-ness" over any kind of cure. Perhaps it's not necessary, but
it's interesting, and real, and allows me to be full of both sympathy
and admiration for her.
Bottom line: just because they *could* give Babs her legs back, doesn't
mean they need to. They *could* give Batman super-human abilities.
They *could* bring back Jason Todd. They *could* do any number of
things to make the "lives" of the characters easier, or more fulfilled,
or just to satisfy the whim of a fan or an editor or a writer.
But why should they?
--
... The streets are safe in Philadelphia. It's the people who make them
unsafe.
noit...@hotmail.com
P...@stsm.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Just going to jump in and drop my 1.55 pence (roughly 2 cents) into the
> discussion...
>
> One of the things about fiction is that it is escapism. Some people
> like their escapism to be overwhelmingly positive, where the bad guy
> gets his comeuppance, the good guy gets the girl and everybody lives
> happily ever after. Some people prefer their escapism to be grim and
> gritty, where death, dispair and terror are the mainstays of the story.
> Some people, on the other hand, enjoy a mix of both, and I'd argue that
> the Bat-books fall into this last catagory.
>
> If Batman was un-troubled, carefree and had no problems in his life,
> then the character would be much diluted, as we are essentially reading
> about one man's struggle *against* the world, trying to make it a better
> place, etc etc. I'd also suggest that the rest of his supporting cast
> have similar problems that they try to overcome, right the way through
> from the GCPD to the "Bat-Family". Babs' disability, while it doesn't
> define her character, has shaped it in a very specific way, and her
> attitude creates a positive role-model both for the disabled, but also
> for readers in general.
>
Correct. However, that wheel chair casts a long shadow, does it not? This
thread is a tribute to its power. When I see Babs, I notice whether she is
in the wheel chair or not. Part of who Oracle is is a quadriplegic, just as
Batman is a great athlete. Define her? No, but it is a significant piece.
> Sure, the writers/editors could create a thousand ways for Babs to
> regain the use of her legs (either by using the DCU in general, or
> keeping the explaination within the style of the slightly isolated
> Bat-books), and I'm sure that this would make a lot of people happy.
> They could write her going back to being Batgirl, or carrying on as
> Oracle, or anything, and make her happier because she had the use of
> her legs. They're writers. It's easy. They make it up!
>
Indeed.
> But for me, one of the things I love about Babs is that I admire her,
> both for her "attitude" towards her disability, and also for her
> "stubborn-ness" over any kind of cure. Perhaps it's not necessary, but
> it's interesting, and real, and allows me to be full of both sympathy
> and admiration for her.
>
It is similar for me in that way, too.
> Bottom line: just because they *could* give Babs her legs back, doesn't
> mean they need to. They *could* give Batman super-human abilities.
> They *could* bring back Jason Todd. They *could* do any number of
> things to make the "lives" of the characters easier, or more fulfilled,
> or just to satisfy the whim of a fan or an editor or a writer.
>
> But why should they?
>
THat is the question, all right. Getting her legs back does not sound to me
like a smart move because for starters, I fail to see how it will make things
any more interesting in the long term. Also, if we were first introduced to
her as a quadraplegic in the story, then we would not be wanting so hard for
her to walk, because she was always like this. Instead, she was introduced
walking. Look at Daredevil. It is taken for granted he is blind, because he
was blind since he was first introduced. As a result of Bab's transformation
from healthy to disabled in the course of comic book continuity, I find such
a rare occurrence to be protected and treasured. Sad it may be, but it is
very special.
Mike Shields
>
> Leonard Sidiski wrote:
> > Ok, I know the "should Babs" line of questions has been done to death.
> > I do love the character of Oracle for lots of reasons. She's a strong
> > female character, beautiful but not cheese-cakey, and a hero who
> > relies on brains and not violence. I do NOT want to see her turn into
> > a late twenty-something (or is she thirtysomething?) Batgirl, or a
> > super-powered Bat-woman. I don't want to see her take Kyle's ring in a
> > fit of irritation over his ineffectuallness and become Green Lantern.
> > I don't want to see her go crazy, start shooting people from her
> > window with a sniper rifle, murder some heros, get killed, and come
> > back as the first female Spectre. That being said...
>
> I agree so far...
>
> > The ability to walk wouldn't stop her from being Oracle. I can think
> > of so many ways to get her on her feet again that the question of why
> > it hasn't been done is a serious mystery.
I agree with this statement.
> >
> > For example:
> > WW learns of her disability and, impressed with her work as a JLAer,
> > gives her a zap with that purple ray.
>
> Ech... No, Wonder Woman isn't a figure in the regular bat-books, and
> should be kept away.
Wrong. For so many reasons. The biggest of which being, if things were
different, Bruce and Diana would be together....
>
> > Bruce finally gives her a referral to the guy who fixed his back.
>
> The *woman* who fixed his back has reverted to an infantile state of
> mind. I think her brother is dead.
>
> > She calls up Zatanna. niaga krow sgel!
>
> Ech... No, Zatanna usually isn't a figure in the regular bat-books, has
> become much more of a 'spandx-superhero', and should be kept away.
So?
>
> > Mr. Miracle lends her some New Genesis medical technology.
>
> Ech... No, The New Gods aren't figures in the regular bat-books, and
> should be kept away.
>
> > Project Cadmus grows her a new spine using cloning technology and
> > implants it.
>
> Ech... No, Project Cadmus isn't an organization in the regular
> bat-books, and should be kept away.
>
> > Project Cadmus grows her a whole new body and implants her head in it.
>
> Ech... No, Project Cadmus isn't an organization in the regular
> bat-books, and should be kept away.
>
> I don't understand why so many people are set on the 'it happened
> elsewhere in DC, so it should happen in this book too!'
I've answered this below, actually.
>
> Batman is a very different character then most of the DCU, and really
> doesn't work well interacting with most of it's characters. (with a few
> exceptions.) I feel that the bat-books should be kept out of the DCU
> for the most part. He's fine as a supporting character in JLA, but
> having all those silly aliens and demi-gods running around Gotham in the
> regular books would spoil them completely.
Isn't this the same argument that was used during NML? I'm sorry, but to
review, Batman is a DCU character, therefore, other DCU characters can
interact with him, on more than an occasional basis.
>
> Besides, if you use *some* of the technology in one instance, or say
> 'it's silly Y's not healed, because X was elsewhere!' then why aren't
> they doing it everytime? Why, when there's a hidden bomb in the city,
> wouldn't Batman call in the Flash everytime? The Killer Croc escapes?
> Superman takes care of the problem. This would absolutely ruin the
> books, and spoil the integrity of the character. AFAIC, they should be
> left alone in their respective books, unless there's a good story to
> write with them together.
Well, maybe because they're having problems in their own respective
cities? Your basic argument seems to be, "Batman's not really in the
DCU, he just plays that part in JLA..." Wrong. It's all or nothing, AFAIC.
>
<snippage>
> -----
> With Oracle, we have an amazing character. She's a female with a strong
> personality, and isn't treated as a sex object. She's a character based
> on intelligence, not physical ability or appearance. *** And she's a
> great example of someone who has overcome her shortcomings. ***
And why would this change if her paralysis were healed?
>
> Healing, super-powering, or otherwise changing her at this point would
> be a shameful waste of a great character, *** not to mention saying
> something uncomfortable about quadriplegics. ***
> -----
Well, I disagree with the last, but I'm answering it first, so....
Mike
We don't have a script, but we can bang one out by Friday....
Mike Shields
>
> I think she should get her legs back. I see no reason why in comics this one
> character has to remain sick. If Batman can do it, she can too.
>
> Ok, thats the simple version, here is the longer one...
>
> There is no good reason why she shouldnt walk again in a comic series that has
> seen people overcome snapped spines (are we to say Batmans spine wasnt snapped
> when he was bent like a pretzel over Bane's knee?), the character of Oracle
> could continue and she could get a palm pilot, and we could be rid of this
> false notion that a character in a wheelchair is some kind of social statement.
Agreed.
>
> And frankly, I think its a joke people find Oracle such an intriguing
> character. Correct me if I am wrong, but basically isnt she just a combination
> of the Bat computer and walkie talkies? I mean, what does she offer Batman
> that the computer in the trunk of his car couldnt provide, or the computer in
> his belt, or whatever else he has in there?
Well, a second set of eyes, for one. Realtime analysis of data while
he's in the field fighting bad guys for another. Despite your insistence
that he has all of that with the Bat Computer, it's not true AI yet. It
probably never will be. Lemme know when they get to seventh level or
generation AI. Hint: They're really only at 5 right now.
Mike
P.S. The Bat Computer is a Macintosh....
Mike Shields
>
> Loren says..
>
> >Ken wrote:
> >: Fine, then Barbara Gordon fans should have no problem with her getting
> >: her legs back and reassuming the role of Batgirl.
> >
> >As Chris recently stated, Babs doesn't want to be Batgirl.
>
> That's a cop-out I think. Babs doesn't any more not want to be Batgirl than
> she wants to be Oracle. The writers decide what she wants and with a moment's
> notice she could want to be Batgirl or walk again.
Well, Denny is always saying it's up to the writers, and if they write a
great story that gives her her legs back, then we'll see it.
KRothst402
Actually, that would be funny idea for a future commercial.
Koby The Interactive Circus Bear!
>issues, issues which I know almost nothing about, and since I don't
>know about them, I couldn't comment on being in her position either way.
As far as I'm concerned, the "unresolved issue" of not being able to
walk would override all others. Especially since I'm a swing dancer ;)
But whatever. The thread is dead, long last the wait until we find out
what this unresolved issue is.
-- Peter Destructo
"Here, put on this outfit. It’s got a Kevlar weave, so it’ll stop a
light caliber bullet, but it’s also a polyester blend so it breathes
well and doesn’t sweat. The utility belt should have everything you
need, AND it’s REVERSIBLE!" - Bruce Wayne
Koby The Interactive Circus Bear!
>> Ech... No, Wonder Woman isn't a figure in the regular bat-books, and
>> should be kept away.
>
>Wrong. For so many reasons. The biggest of which being, if things were
>different, Bruce and Diana would be together....
If things were different, KOBY and Diana would be together! :D :D :D
Mike Shields
>
> >P.S. The Bat Computer is a Macintosh....
>
> Actually, that would be funny idea for a future commercial.
Dude, have you seen the OnStar Commercials??? My friend thinks they're
lame. I like the one that I've seen. OnStar has been installed in the
Batmobile. Classic.
Mike
Princess: I wanna be a PowerPuff Girl!!!
Blossom: Well, I'm sorry, but you can't, we're superheroes.
Bubbles:We were born with superpowers.
Buttercup: You can't just buy superpowers...
Princess: Oh yeah? Tell that to Batman!
Loren Di Iorio
: Dude, have you seen the OnStar Commercials??? My friend thinks they're
: lame. I like the one that I've seen. OnStar has been installed in the
: Batmobile. Classic.
I only saw it once, and that was not long after they debuted. I wish
they'd put it on again; I keep checking all the U.S. stations, like
A&E, but I don't seem to be watching at the right time.
...Loren