Batman continuity.
Jason Kirk
I was trying to put together some sort of chronology for the Batman and
have run into a problem. Just which of his stories are in continuity? I
like all the stories from the O'Neil/Adam era and the darker 80s version
but how many of these stories are in actual continuity? Becasue of this I
tried to work out a frame work for the eariler stories based on Year One,
Long Halowwen, Killing Joke, and the various issues #0. This inturn leads
to the following questions:
How much of Legends of the Dark knight are in continuity?
Joe Chill, rando, street crime or paid assissin?
Ra's Al Ghul: No Son of the Bat, okay but how many of his other
appearances are cannon?
Did Bruce Wayne ever move to the midtown penthouse in current continuity?
What was Batman's post-Zero Hour involvemenet with the Outsiders?
Which stories contain notable referances to year-one Batman or pre-Batman
Bruce Wayne stores or pre-Zero-Hour stories?
I know that last question is rather open but I hope somebody can point me
in the right direction.
Thanks for anyhelp.
-Jason Kirk
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jayembee
> I was trying to put together some sort of chronology for the
> Batman and have run into a problem. Just which of his stories
> are in continuity?
Everything except for those that obviously aren't. :-)
Seriously, that's what it really boils down to. Obviously, we
can rule out anything prior to Crisis that would be erased from
continuity *because* of Crisis: the Earth-2 Batman and all that
derives from him (such as the pre-Crisis Huntress), anything in
his "original origin" that conflicts with BATMAN: YEAR ONE, etc.
Otherwise, the long-standing policy of the Bat-office has been
that we can assume that, by and large, the events that we've
read about in in pre-Crisis Batman stories happened in current
continuity, but with perhaps some of the details changed. If
any modern story contradicts a pre-Crisis story, then the modern
story is the accepted version of events.
> I like all the stories from the O'Neil/Adam era and the darker
> 80s version but how many of these stories are in actual continuity?
Essentially, all of them. I can't really think of any that contain
any egregious contradictions to current continuity, though there
might well be some.
> Becasue of this I tried to work out a frame work for the eariler
> stories based on Year One, Long Halowwen, Killing Joke, and the
> various issues #0.
I notice that you didn't mention BATMAN: YEAR TWO. That's OK,
you shouldn't. It's been pretty much established that Y2 (and
its sequel, FULL CIRCLE) are no longer considered in continuity.
> This inturn leads to the following questions:
> How much of Legends of the Dark knight are in continuity?
Unknown. Some are obviously in continuity (like the KnightQuest
issues), others obviously aren't (or weren't -- I was thinking
of the Bat-Mite story as an example, but the latest issue of
WORLD'S FINEST puts that in doubt). I think the editorial policy
for the title has been to tell Batman stories that they think
are interesting without having to worry about whether any given
story maintains continuity or not.
> Joe Chill, rando, street crime or paid assissin?
Ya know, they keep changing their minds about Joe Chill, that
I've given up trying to keep it straight.
> Ra's Al Ghul: No Son of the Bat, okay but how many of his other
> appearances are cannon?
All of them, as far as I know. Again, some of them might need
to be tweaked a bit, but essentially, there have been none that
have been completely thrown out except those first two graphic
novels.
> Did Bruce Wayne ever move to the midtown penthouse in current
> continuity?
Unknown. We've never been shown or told that he did, but there's
nothing that I can think of in current continuity that would be
violated by it. There are a few other things like this that are
unclear (or have been), like whether Dick attended Hudson U. at
all (the latest WORLD'S FINEST says he did, but that's the only
time it's ever been mentioned post-Crisis) or whether Barbara
Gordon ever served in Congress (doubtful, as there isn't enough
time under the "Ten Year Plan" version of the timeline).
> What was Batman's post-Zero Hour involvemenet with the Outsiders?
Beats me. I don't think that the Bat-office has officially ruled
all that out of continuity, but they seem to be going out of their
way to never mention it again.
--- jayembee (Jerry.B...@eds.com)
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Tenzel Kim
>like all the stories from the O'Neil/Adam era and the darker 80s version
>tried to work out a frame work for the eariler stories based on Year One,
>Long Halowwen, Killing Joke, and the various issues #0.
I have some notes on the first year of Batman's career and would be glad to
post them as soon as I find them, but right now I'm on my way to bed.
Anyway, just wanted to note that you'd better start by counting Long
Halloween out of Batman's actual continuity. Although it's a great story it
just doesn't fit with Year One and the Year 2 annuals. I've tried very hard
to make it fit but there are just too many problems in doing so.
Tenz.
Jason Kirk
> I have some notes on the first year of Batman's career and would be glad to
> post them as soon as I find them, but right now I'm on my way to bed.
> Anyway, just wanted to note that you'd better start by counting Long
> Halloween out of Batman's actual continuity. Although it's a great story it
> just doesn't fit with Year One and the Year 2 annuals. I've tried very hard
> to make it fit but there are just too many problems in doing so.
Its a pity that LH isn't in current continuity as it certainly deserves to
be. I'd be very intersted in your notes as I'm trying to put together a
profile on the modern Batman for my webpage.
(www.geocities.com/TheTropics/1185) A profile on Superman was easy
because he was rebooted but Batman is a little more vague.
jayembee
> Its a pity that LH isn't in current continuity as it certainly
> deserves to be.
That's a curious statement. Why does it deserve to be in current
continuity? Is being in current continuity a magic goal that all
Batman stories must aspire to? Or a reward to be given to those
stories that are especially good? Is THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS
somehow lacking because it's not in current continuity? Or all
those wonderful Golden Age or Silver Age stories?
THE LONG HALLOWEEN is what it is. It's one of the best Batman
stories published in the last decade or more. Its worth isn't
diminished any by not being in continuity. If anything, I'd
say that it's the other way around: it's continuity that's been
diminished by the exclusion of TLH.
(And actually, it's not been determined whether TLH is in fact
out of continuity or not. It's just that it's problematic enough
to make it difficult to fit it into continuity. But then, so are
a lot of other things.)
Matches Malone
<Jason...@astro.cf.ac.uk> said
> Just which of his stories are in continuity? I
>like all the stories from the O'Neil/Adam era and the darker 80s version
>but how many of these stories are in actual continuity?
A lot of this is open to debate, and has never been established one
way or another in the comics (as opposed to some offhand comment
O'Neil made at a con). But here goes:
>How much of Legends of the Dark knight are in continuity?
I believe the current editorial stance is that none of them are,
except stuff like NML or KnightsEnd, that's set in the present. When
LotDK was launched, it was supposed to feature mostly in-continuity
stories from Batman's early years. My preference is to treat them as
canon unless there's something that clearly doesn't work.
>Joe Chill, rando, street crime or paid assissin?
Neither. The current editorial stance is that there was no Joe
Chill. The identity of the Waynes' killer is unknown.
>Ra's Al Ghul: No Son of the Bat, okay but how many of his other
>appearances are cannon?
Probably most of them. Their original encounter (BATMAN #234) has
been referred to in post-ZH stories. Whether Kathy Kane ever existed
in an open question at the moment, though, so the Ra's-Sensei stories
from DETECTIVE #485 and 489-90 are kind of sketchy. Son of the Demon
and Bride of the Demon are not in continuity.
>Did Bruce Wayne ever move to the midtown penthouse in current continuity?
Never specifically revealed either way, but probably not.
>What was Batman's post-Zero Hour involvemenet with the Outsiders?
Again, not clear. It was pretty clear in OUTSIDERS #8 that the
group had some connection to Batman, but that was pre-ZH.
>Which stories contain notable referances to year-one Batman or pre-Batman
>Bruce Wayne stores or pre-Zero-Hour stories?
Well, they refer to pre-ZH stuff all the time. Knight* and Death
in the Family were both pre-ZH, and ZH didn't reboot anything. There
have been a few references to old Ra's Al Ghul stories, some of
Moench's 80's stuff, the original Conway Killer Croc story, the
Englehart/Rogers Deadshot issue, and a few others here and there.
Examples would be the DEADSHOT mini, BATMAN #484, 489, and 515, and
ROBIN #33.
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mg
news:37add70...@news.mindspring.com...
> Probably most of them. Their original encounter (BATMAN #234) has
> been referred to in post-ZH stories. Whether Kathy Kane ever existed
> in an open question at the moment, though, so the Ra's-Sensei stories
> from DETECTIVE #485 and 489-90 are kind of sketchy. Son of the Demon
> and Bride of the Demon are not in continuity.
I seem to remember the Bronze Tiger mentioning his involvement with Kathy
Kane's death in Suicide Squad. Maybe she existed but not as Batwoman
anymore.
Wildstar
wrote:
>(And actually, it's not been determined whether TLH is in fact
>out of continuity or not. It's just that it's problematic enough
>to make it difficult to fit it into continuity. But then, so are
>a lot of other things.)
What sort of problems?
Matches Malone
said
Possible. But there's also the scene in PLANET KRYPTON where
Batman says he doesn't know who she is. That's why I saw it's a
confusing area to navigate.
Matches Malone
(Wildstar) said
Well, for starters it's very difficult to fit into DC's current
ten-year timeline. The earliest TLH could start is June of Year 2,
meaning it would run through October of Year 3. Yet Gordon's not the
commish yet, there's no Robin, etc. I think you'll find that just
about any story that takes place over a period of more than a few days
will run afoul of the Almighty Timeline sooner or later.
Also, the depictions of some the villains is somewhat at odds with
their portrayal elsewhere. Ivy is noticeably different, as is
Catwoman.
Getting down the more nitpicky, Catwoman's in her purple costume
throughout, when CATWOMAN #39 showed her getting it after an encounter
with Two-Face. This, of course, doesn't work if Two-Face isn't around
at the beginning of TLH.
I consider all of this a great argument for just taking the story
for what it's worth, as opposed to trying to fit it into some monster
continuity.
SLWalsh
>
> When last we saw our intrepid heroes, "mg" <NOmgern...@soltec.net>
> said
> >Matches Malone <mat...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >news:37add70...@news.mindspring.com...
>
> >> Probably most of them. Their original encounter (BATMAN #234) has
> >> been referred to in post-ZH stories. Whether Kathy Kane ever existed
> >> in an open question at the moment, though, so the Ra's-Sensei stories
> >> from DETECTIVE #485 and 489-90 are kind of sketchy. Son of the Demon
> >> and Bride of the Demon are not in continuity.
> >
> >I seem to remember the Bronze Tiger mentioning his involvement with Kathy
> >Kane's death in Suicide Squad. Maybe she existed but not as Batwoman
> >anymore.
>
> Possible. But there's also the scene in PLANET KRYPTON where
> Batman says he doesn't know who she is. That's why I saw it's a
> confusing area to navigate.
He saw Batwoman and said "Kathy?"...right? Did Batman know the
post-Crisis Kathy Kane whose death was recalled (or happened; can't
remember) in Suicide Squad...?
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The Master of Math + Music
sl...@ici.net (SLWalsh) wrote:
> Matches Malone wrote:
>
>> Possible. But there's also the scene in PLANET KRYPTON where
>> Batman says he doesn't know who she is. That's why I saw it's a
>> confusing area to navigate.
>
> He saw Batwoman and said "Kathy?"...right? Did Batman know the
> post-Crisis Kathy Kane whose death was recalled (or happened; can't
> remember) in Suicide Squad...?
She dropped out of Hypertime. I think the idea is that because Hypertime
allows different timelines to cross over here and there, before continuing
on their merry way, Batman and Batwoman have some kind of resonance, despite
never having met.
Of course, the other explaination is that Batman recognised Kathy through
the Batwoman costume, and was shocked to see a version of her in this form.
Thus when Batman says he doesn't know her, he's maybe understanding that
she's an alternate version, and thus not the woman he knows.
Or not.
Maybe.
Perhaps.
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... The gold I want is buried in the sky.
The Master of Math + Music
mat...@mindspring.com (Matches Malone) wrote:
> Well, for starters it's very difficult to fit into DC's current
> ten-year timeline. The earliest TLH could start is June of Year 2,
> meaning it would run through October of Year 3.
I'm not challenging you on this, but what's this statement based on?
Surely the easiest way of placing this series is to find out when Harvey
Dent became Two-Face.
> Getting down the more nitpicky, Catwoman's in her purple costume
> throughout, when CATWOMAN #39 showed her getting it after an encounter
> with Two-Face. This, of course, doesn't work if Two-Face isn't around
> at the beginning of TLH.
But Catwoman had the same purple costume in Year One, which surely is
considered more "valid" than Catwoman?
> I consider all of this a great argument for just taking the story
> for what it's worth, as opposed to trying to fit it into some monster
> continuity.
Exactly. But it's still fun to try and wrap your head around DC's timeline.
--
__
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... See no evil, hear no evil, date no evil.
Matches Malone
of Math + Music) said
>In article <37af65f...@news.mindspring.com>,
> mat...@mindspring.com (Matches Malone) wrote:
>
>> Well, for starters it's very difficult to fit into DC's current
>> ten-year timeline. The earliest TLH could start is June of Year 2,
>> meaning it would run through October of Year 3.
>
>I'm not challenging you on this, but what's this statement based on?
TLH clearly takes place after "Year One." TLH opens at Johnny
Viti's wedding, and the characters say it's June. Year One (the
story, not the actual year) lasts until December, so the earliest June
this could be is June of the next year (i.e. Year Two). TLH proceeds
with Holiday killing once a month, beginning in October (of Year Two)
and concluding a year later. So the earliest TLH can be is Year 2-3.
>Surely the easiest way of placing this series is to find out when Harvey
>Dent became Two-Face.
If TLH is canon, the earliest Harvey could've gotten nailed with
the acid is August of Year Three. This doesn't jibe with the
timeline, which would introduce Robin before then.
>> Getting down the more nitpicky, Catwoman's in her purple costume
>> throughout, when CATWOMAN #39 showed her getting it after an encounter
>> with Two-Face. This, of course, doesn't work if Two-Face isn't around
>> at the beginning of TLH.
>
>But Catwoman had the same purple costume in Year One, which surely is
>considered more "valid" than Catwoman?
Actually, Catwoman had the grey costume in Year One. That's the
problem.
Matches Malone
>He saw Batwoman and said "Kathy?"...right? Did Batman know the
>post-Crisis Kathy Kane whose death was recalled (or happened; can't
>remember) in Suicide Squad...?
Kathy was referred to as "a friend of Batman" in SS #38, so I think
it's fairly safe to say he knew her. Whether he'd recognize her in
the Batwoman costume, I dunno.
Peter Robertson
Continuity. I own most of the last thirty years of Batman...and I'll be
rogered (Marshalled no less) if I'll not read Frank Robbins Batman stories
because they're out of it.
Peter Robertson
Wildstar
Malone) wrote:
>When last we saw our intrepid heroes, SLWalsh <sl...@ici.net> said
>
>>He saw Batwoman and said "Kathy?"...right? Did Batman know the
>>post-Crisis Kathy Kane whose death was recalled (or happened; can't
>>remember) in Suicide Squad...?
>
> Kathy was referred to as "a friend of Batman" in SS #38, so I think
>it's fairly safe to say he knew her. Whether he'd recognize her in
>the Batwoman costume, I dunno.
I thought the whispered "Kathy" was to show pre-crisis memories
intruding on current day Batman.
Boneyard 0
In my muddled head, there's room for The Killing Joke and the Joker's Utility
Belt, for Bat-Mite and Alfred's "what if" stories. Batwoman and Bette Kane and
Ace the Bathound are just as valid as Leslie Thompkins and Azreal and Bane.
I LOVE long-eared grim vigilante Batman just as much as stubby-eared goodie-two
shoes-works with the police Batman just as much as the stubborn but always
reliable (and right!) member of the Justice League Batman and all the flavors
inbetween!
I don't give a damn about the 10 year plan. Here's how I see the chronology of
Batman:
Year one (1939): Batman fights Hugo Strange and Doctor Death.
Year two (1940): Batman takes on Robin, fights Joker and the Cat and Boss Zucco
Year three (1941): Batman fights the Joker (alot) and Penguin and Catwoman
Year four (1942)... Year sixty (1999)... well you get the idea.
So what if Bruce ends up being 80 by this time frame? Who cares. It's a comic
book. Many of the stories ARE goofy , but they ALL go into making what we love
about the character. And the beauty is, we can pick and choose what aspect of
Batman we like. That's why he's SO popular. He works on TONS OF DIFFERENT
LEVELS!! Celebrate it. Don't deny it.
I just wish the inheritors and copyright holders of our favorite character
loved him and his entire universe as much as we do. Then they wouldn't feel
compelled to forget or erase all those other creative people's hard and
enjoyable work.
Yer Pal Boneyard
getting off the soapbox for now...
JC007
and this isn't really much more than a 'me too' post...
Boneyard 0 <bone...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990811161237...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> Many of the stories ARE goofy , but they ALL go into making what we love
> about the character. And the beauty is, we can pick and choose what aspect
of
> Batman we like. That's why he's SO popular. He works on TONS OF DIFFERENT
> LEVELS!! Celebrate it. Don't deny it.
Amen, brother! Batman has survived by being so open to different
interpretations, always moving with the times, always being modern. Looking
back at various periods of Bat-history is fascinating. The sixties TV series
and TDKR are completely different in tone and yet they're both Batman and
they both add to the Batman myth.
JC007
--
http://www.weld18.demon.co.uk/
The Better Batman Bureau
jayembee
> P...@stsm.demon.co.uk (The Master of Math + Music) said
>> But Catwoman had the same purple costume in Year One, which
>> surely is considered more "valid" than Catwoman?
> Actually, Catwoman had the grey costume in Year One. That's the
> problem.
Besides, where Catwoman's concerned, BATMAN: YEAR ONE *isn't*
"more valid". In the wake of ZERO HOUR, issue #0 of CATWOMAN
changed her origin so that the one shown in B:YO is no longer
in continuity. The "Year One" stories in CATWOMAN ANNUAL #2
and CATWOMAN #25, and the character of CATWOMAN ever since,
has been in line with the new origin, suggesting that it's now
the canonical origin.
jayembee
>>>> Whether Kathy Kane ever existed in an open question at the
>>>> moment, though, so the Ra's-Sensei stories from DETECTIVE
>>>> #485 and 489-90 are kind of sketchy.
>>> I seem to remember the Bronze Tiger mentioning his involvement
>>> with Kathy Kane's death in Suicide Squad. Maybe she existed
>>> but not as Batwoman anymore.
>> Possible. But there's also the scene in PLANET KRYPTON where
>> Batman says he doesn't know who she is. That's why I saw it's
>> a confusing area to navigate.
> He saw Batwoman and said "Kathy?"...right? Did Batman know the
> post-Crisis Kathy Kane whose death was recalled (or happened;
> can't remember) in Suicide Squad...?
Well, in SUICIDE SQUAD #38 (the issue in question), the men who
are interrogating Bronze Tiger mention that he Kathy Kane was a
friend of Batman's, so I'd say "yes", assuming that we can take
that issue of SS as being canonical.
On the other hand, it seems to me that if there was a post-Crisis
Kathy Kane, she'd have been known as a friend of Bruce Wayne's,
not of Batman's. But let it pass...
The sticky question is whether that issue of SS can be considered
canon. Given that SS #38 is the *only* place that KK has ever
been mentioned post-Crisis (excluding Hypertime-related events),
and it's not part of the Bat-corner of the DCU, it's place in
continuity can be brought into question.