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Wot no daystick (was dredd vs death demo)

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jayeff

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Sep 30, 2003, 12:51:59 PM9/30/03
to
Just to be sure this isn't missed cos I'm well pissed off about this.

> > *But* where's the daystick??? There's me all up close and personal and I
> > can't beat on anybody. It just ain't Dredd without some skull cracking.
>
> But there is plenty of that - the daystick isn't selectable, as the
> way melee attack tends to work is that you only use it in tricky
> situations, where you wouldn't have time to select a different weapon
> anyway. Hence Dredd is able to belt perps with whatever weapon he is
> carrying at the time, a la Halo, or even with the legendary Fist of
> Dredd if he's only carrying a pistol.

This doesn't work for me at all. Since when did Dredd pistol-whip people?
He's always gone to daystick for getting physical.* Coding in an optional
daystick, say as the default for number key 1 (making the Lawgiver #2 of
course) is a doddle compared to some of the other stuff you've put into the
game. Considering Half Life managed it with the crowbar 5(?) years ago we
shouldn't even be having this conversation.

*When he wasn't using his fists and ok that is an option but it deserves to
be selectable too. As for instant kills with punches that's a little OTT.
Rather than bugger up close combat to allow for the vampires why not put in
special weapons or ammo for tackling them?

The idea of hosing perps into submission does seem a bit silly. Ok you can
shoot the gun out of people's hands but that tends to happen more by luck
them judgement. I'm not saying to dump any of that, especially as that'd
mean some major recoding I expect. Perps giving up when they've lost a few
buddies or taken a bit of damage, or having lost their gun all makes sense
but it needs to have the option to get in there and crack some skulls too,
he is a cop after all.

Of course we need some up close and personal perps too so we can daystick at
our leisure.

Get this fly out the ointment guys!!

Jay


jayeff

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Oct 2, 2003, 10:53:41 AM10/2/03
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Er, hello?

"jayeff" <valkyrie...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:blccbl$fs4$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

Charles E. Hardwidge

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Oct 2, 2003, 11:41:41 AM10/2/03
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>>Just to be sure this isn't missed cos I'm well
>>pissed off about this. *But* where's the
>>daystick??? There's me all up close and personal
>>and I can't beat on anybody. It just ain't Dredd
>>without some skull cracking.
>Er, hello?

Observations like this lend credence to the argument that this game isn't
Dredd and isn't finished. Not saying this is a five minute job, especially
as so many things flow from such an apparantly minor change, but it would be
Dredd. Still can't believe they're releasing this pile of shit without a
severe reworking.

--
Charles E. Hardwidge.


Mark Chapman

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Oct 3, 2003, 8:09:51 AM10/3/03
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> This doesn't work for me at all. Since when did Dredd pistol-whip people?
> He's always gone to daystick for getting physical.* Coding in an optional
> daystick, say as the default for number key 1 (making the Lawgiver #2 of
> course) is a doddle compared to some of the other stuff you've put into the
> game. Considering Half Life managed it with the crowbar 5(?) years ago we
> shouldn't even be having this conversation.

That is true, but a lot has changed in FPS games since then. It has
become pretty much standard for melee attacks to be made with fists or
the butt of the weapon you're carrying, rather than having to switch
over to a separate, dedicated melee weapon.

In games where a separate melee weapon is available, it is generally
used in gameplay either as the only weapon available to you until you
find a gun (usually at the start of a game), or for stealth kills -
the dagger in Wolfenstein, for example, fits into both of these
categories.

Dredd is never without his Lawgiver in the game, so the first
situation doesn't really apply, and as Dredd is the high-profile face
of law enforcement in Mega-City One, he is unlikely to use a separate
'stealth' melee weapon. Also, most of the perps you face in the game
are armed, so it's standard practice for Dredd to return fire, only
resorting to a melee attack if they get in his face (it's certainly
not unprecedented for Dredd to clobber people with his gun - he's done
it a few times in the comic).

Having the daystick in the game was something we gave serious
consideration to during development, but in the end we decided not to
implement it, in favour of a melee mode that was more relevant to the
style of gameplay in this particular game.

That is not to say the daystick will not be implemented in a future
expansion pack or a Dredd sequel. Especially if there is a great
demand for it from fans, it is something we will seriously consider
doing.

jayeff

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Oct 3, 2003, 10:36:31 AM10/3/03
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"Mark Chapman" <ma...@rebellion.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7267ff2.03100...@posting.google.com...

If perps are shooting at Dredd he usually shoots back, I don't have a
problem with that. The daystick as a 'stealth' weapon though? Not in Dredd's
hands. As for pistol whipping, yeh ok I'll concede that one. But Dredd uses
his fists and daystick far more than pistol whips so I don't quite get the
argument on him not doing so, except on the grounds of gameplay. Unless you
really do believe this is canon for Dredd.

I played it the way you are supposed to - minimal firing/maximum 'taunts' -
and got 46 arrests (Senior Judge!!) on Normal, with the occasional use of
stumm gas. Suspension of disbelief fell a little flat when I was standing
next to a perp, 'taunted' and (thinking I was being restrained) used my fist
when they didn't surrender and before they'd drawn their weapon. Instant
kill and a warning from central. WTF is that about? So it's less lethal to
blow their kneecaps off then to thwap them. It's just plain silly. You do
realise when the multiplayer games are up and running that people won't even
bother with firearms.

Ultimately you've removed something that is canon to Dredd's image. It's on
a par with not including stumm gas grenades or hotshot ammo. What I'm
suggesting removes nothing from the game as it stands, it just adds an
element that allows players to approach arrests the way they want to play
the game.

Maybe I should start a petition! :)

Jay


Zoë Robinson

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Oct 3, 2003, 11:52:26 AM10/3/03
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"jayeff" <valkyrie...@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message
news:blk1hh$64p$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
<Cut>

> If perps are shooting at Dredd he usually shoots back, I don't have a
> problem with that. The daystick as a 'stealth' weapon though? Not in
Dredd's
> hands. As for pistol whipping, yeh ok I'll concede that one. But Dredd
uses
> his fists and daystick far more than pistol whips so I don't quite get the
> argument on him not doing so, except on the grounds of gameplay. Unless
you
> really do believe this is canon for Dredd.

I don't think you've read what Mark was saying correctly here. He didn't
say the daystick was a stealth weapon, he said dedicated melee weapons fell
into one of two categories (with the occasional one being in both): weapons
you get at the start of the game and stealth weapons. Since the former is
rapidly succeeded by a missile weapon and Dredd automatically starts with a
missile weapon, what's the point?

I'll admit the daystick would have been a nice touch but I agree with
Rebellion in that it's an extra at best. Dredd doesn't whip out the
daystick and go cracking skulls in any major storyline (the run-up to
'Countdown to Necropolis' where Dredd is talking to Morph is the only
exception I can think of to this) I can recall and I get the feeling Dredd
Versus Death's storyline is supposed to be more an epic than a standard
story, so not using the daystick is in keeping with that.

> I played it the way you are supposed to - minimal firing/maximum
'taunts' -
> and got 46 arrests (Senior Judge!!) on Normal, with the occasional use of
> stumm gas. Suspension of disbelief fell a little flat when I was standing
> next to a perp, 'taunted' and (thinking I was being restrained) used my
fist
> when they didn't surrender and before they'd drawn their weapon. Instant
> kill and a warning from central. WTF is that about? So it's less lethal to
> blow their kneecaps off then to thwap them. It's just plain silly.

I'm no martial arts expert but I know several points on the body where, if
hit with sufficient skill, will kill someone in one blow. Compared to that,
shooting off someone's knees is far less lethal. Dredd is a big, strong guy
trained to beat down on criminals and dispense whatever punishment is
necessary. It's logical that he'd be able to kill someone in one hit.

> You do
> realise when the multiplayer games are up and running that people won't
even
> bother with firearms.

Well that's just bullshit and you know it. How many people use the gauntlet
in Quake 3? How about the instakill melee weapon from Unreal Tournament?
Both come in as a last resort weapon or one to piss off people you don't
like. Forsaking a long-range kill for the possibility of maybe getting
close enough to try to land a punch on an armoured opponent is just stupid.
People will play Dredd multiplayer with a Lawgiver at least.

> Ultimately you've removed something that is canon to Dredd's image.

No they haven't. I asked a few friends about Dredd just to see about this
and the only one who knew he even had a daystick was the one who read the
comic. The others knew about the Lawgiver and Lawmaster (or "that big bike
with the stupid tyres" as one friend put it) but not the daystick. It's not
an integral part of his image.

Zoė
--
"I'll raise you one alien on a flying motorbike that shoots
missiles that shoot other missiles." - Luke, alt.comics.2000ad


Beerman

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Oct 3, 2003, 3:51:27 PM10/3/03
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"Zoë Robinson" <nobt...@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:blk5vn$d4mj8$1...@ID-97417.news.uni-berlin.de:

> I don't think you've read what Mark was saying correctly here. He
> didn't say the daystick was a stealth weapon, he said dedicated melee
> weapons fell into one of two categories (with the occasional one being
> in both): weapons you get at the start of the game and stealth
> weapons.

Usually, yeah. Taking into account games like Deus Ex, there's also the
category of non-lethal weapons, which sounds like what jayeff is talking
about here. Given the emphasis placed on the law meter, I'd have to agree
this would have been a useful addition.



> I'm no martial arts expert but I know several points on the body
> where, if hit with sufficient skill, will kill someone in one blow.

Sufficient *force*. Skill is just what lets you hit them in the first
place. Besides, the one-hit-kill stuff is 90+% myth. If you're opponent
stands around and compliantly lets you hit them how you want, you might
just pull it off, but people are surprisingly tough in practice.

> Compared to that, shooting off someone's knees is far less lethal.
> Dredd is a big, strong guy trained to beat down on criminals and
> dispense whatever punishment is necessary. It's logical that he'd be
> able to kill someone in one hit.

Now that *is* a stretch. If you're classing the daystick as not
sufficiently canon, I can't recall any instances of this happening on the
comic.

> No they haven't. I asked a few friends about Dredd just to see about
> this and the only one who knew he even had a daystick was the one who
> read the comic. The others knew about the Lawgiver and Lawmaster (or
> "that big bike with the stupid tyres" as one friend put it) but not
> the daystick. It's not an integral part of his image.
>

Still, can't really argue with you here. The only times I can remember
the daystick getting much use, it's usually been in 'sparring' against
other judges.

Would've definitely been a nice touch though :(

Beerman

--
Real email - id:apbe02 host:dsl.pipex.com
"I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer."
- Homer Simpson

jayeff

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Oct 3, 2003, 8:13:27 PM10/3/03
to
I'll answer both here.

"Beerman" <spam...@fakeisp.INVALID> wrote in message
news:Xns9409D4178A8C...@195.129.110.131...


> "Zoë Robinson" <nobt...@btinternet.com> wrote in
> news:blk5vn$d4mj8$1...@ID-97417.news.uni-berlin.de:
>
> > I don't think you've read what Mark was saying correctly here. He
> > didn't say the daystick was a stealth weapon, he said dedicated melee
> > weapons fell into one of two categories (with the occasional one being
> > in both): weapons you get at the start of the game and stealth
> > weapons.
>
> Usually, yeah. Taking into account games like Deus Ex, there's also the
> category of non-lethal weapons, which sounds like what jayeff is talking
> about here. Given the emphasis placed on the law meter, I'd have to agree
> this would have been a useful addition.

That was exactly what I was talking about. I did get what Mark was saying. I
don't think you got what I was saying though. Not giving Dredd a daystick
because he starts with a gun is missing the point of why he should have a
daystick, as Beerman realised - for non lethal attacks

"as Dredd is the high-profile face of law enforcement in Mega-City One, he
is unlikely to use a separate

'stealth' melee weapon". Reads as if to say 'Dredd doesn't do sneaky,
underhanded attacks (which is the general usage of melee weapons) for PR
reasons'. Which also misses the point of why he has a daystick.

Mark made a good point on "most of the perps you face in the game are armed,
so it's standard practice for Dredd to return fire," but let it down with
"only resorting to a melee attack if they get in his face". Which is where
the aspects of the game I have issues with arises. (the end part of that
paragraph I'm not disagreeing with, though I'm sticking to the fact he
doesn't pistol whip by default).

If this was just another FPS where you are just meant to blow away most
things that move then I'd be a bit of a twat to argue this. As the idea is
to subdue and arrest some of your opponents this makes it particularly
relevant.

> > I'm no martial arts expert but I know several points on the body
> > where, if hit with sufficient skill, will kill someone in one blow.
>
> Sufficient *force*. Skill is just what lets you hit them in the first
> place. Besides, the one-hit-kill stuff is 90+% myth. If you're opponent
> stands around and compliantly lets you hit them how you want, you might
> just pull it off, but people are surprisingly tough in practice.

This is silly. The point of martial arts is that a skilled fighter *might*
be able to kill with one blow *if he wants to*. So by that reasoning Dredd
is as perfectly capable of not killing with a punch.

> > Compared to that, shooting off someone's knees is far less lethal.
> > Dredd is a big, strong guy trained to beat down on criminals and
> > dispense whatever punishment is necessary. It's logical that he'd be
> > able to kill someone in one hit.
>
> Now that *is* a stretch. If you're classing the daystick as not
> sufficiently canon, I can't recall any instances of this happening on the
> comic.

Not only is it a stretch it is also splitting hairs. I didn't mean a literal
comparison between bullet to kneecap and death noogie. I'm comparing the
lethality of being shot to the lethality of being punched and you are
telling me a bullet is less lethal. !

> > No they haven't. I asked a few friends about Dredd just to see about
> > this and the only one who knew he even had a daystick was the one who
> > read the comic.

That's to be expected really.

The others knew about the Lawgiver and Lawmaster (or
> > "that big bike with the stupid tyres" as one friend put it) but not
> > the daystick. It's not an integral part of his image.

Integral to who? Do all your friends know about stumm gas grenades or the
different ammo types in a lawgiver? Probably not, so why bother with them
either?

> Still, can't really argue with you here. The only times I can remember
> the daystick getting much use, it's usually been in 'sparring' against
> other judges.

I'm tempted to scour my collection for examples but that'd be pretty sad. I
know they are there. That's good enough for me.

> Would've definitely been a nice touch though :(

Exactly.

J


jayeff

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Oct 3, 2003, 8:30:26 PM10/3/03
to
I answered a lot of this in Beermans reply but there were a couple of points
he snipped that needed an answer.

> I'll admit the daystick would have been a nice touch but I agree with
> Rebellion in that it's an extra at best. Dredd doesn't whip out the
> daystick and go cracking skulls in any major storyline (the run-up to
> 'Countdown to Necropolis' where Dredd is talking to Morph is the only
> exception I can think of to this) I can recall and I get the feeling Dredd
> Versus Death's storyline is supposed to be more an epic than a standard
> story, so not using the daystick is in keeping with that.

The early levels are largely minor storyline though. My issues regarding
melee and the lack of daystick relate mainly to dealing with and arresting
perps. Once you get to the zombies then anything goes really. There is the
issue of what you do when you run out of ammo if your melee attacks are
weaker when fighting the zombies. There are two answers to that:
a) tough shit, you die, should have thought of that earlier Mr trigger puppy
b) give him a 'smart' fist, he automatically pulls his punches for perps and
does fist of Dredd for zombies and stuff. How hard is that to code in?

> > You do
> > realise when the multiplayer games are up and running that people won't
> even
> > bother with firearms.
>
> Well that's just bullshit and you know it.

Do I? I think you have me confused with someone else.

How many people use the gauntlet
> in Quake 3?

HTF should I know?

How about the instakill melee weapon from Unreal Tournament?

Ditto for that too.

> Both come in as a last resort weapon or one to piss off people you don't
> like. Forsaking a long-range kill for the possibility of maybe getting
> close enough to try to land a punch on an armoured opponent is just
stupid.
> People will play Dredd multiplayer with a Lawgiver at least.

My theory was based on the amount of cheating arseholes there are on the
games I have played online.

See the reply to Beerman for the other stuff.

Jay


Graeme

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Oct 3, 2003, 9:34:47 PM10/3/03
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"jayeff" <valkyrie...@hotmail.invalid> wrote in
news:blk1hh$64p$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk:

> If perps are shooting at Dredd he usually shoots back, I don't have a
> problem with that. The daystick as a 'stealth' weapon though? Not in
> Dredd's hands.

Just going by memory, but the didn't the daystick only really rise to
prominence in the 90s, when writers like Millar and Ennis gave artists
like Hinkleton and the Bisley clones the oportunity to draw it with
gobbets of flesh hanging off the end? I may be wrong, but up until that
point it had been little more than a stick Dredd occasionally used to
beat people with, rather than one of the essential ingredients of Dredd.

As for pistol whipping, yeh ok I'll concede that one.
> But Dredd uses his fists and daystick far more than pistol whips so I
> don't quite get the argument on him not doing so, except on the
> grounds of gameplay. Unless you really do believe this is canon for
> Dredd.

Mark's case for *not* inlcuding the daystick makes sense enough to me
(from the perspective of design and realism of play), but it does seem
that it wouldn't have taken much work to include the option. I'm
guessing that the question Rebellion asked (and answered) themselves is
whether the majority of players would actually have used it on a regular
basis?

> I played it the way you are supposed to - minimal firing/maximum
> 'taunts' - and got 46 arrests (Senior Judge!!) on Normal, with the
> occasional use of stumm gas. Suspension of disbelief fell a little
> flat when I was standing next to a perp, 'taunted' and (thinking I was
> being restrained) used my fist when they didn't surrender and before
> they'd drawn their weapon. Instant kill and a warning from central.

Try mis-cycling your Lawgiver rounds and incinerating a perp... They
get reall touchy about that.

> WTF is that about? So it's less lethal to blow their kneecaps off then
> to thwap them. It's just plain silly. You do realise when the
> multiplayer games are up and running that people won't even bother
> with firearms.

Because it makes much more sense to close in with someone who can hurt
you as badly in close quarters as you can hurt them, rather than exchange
fire and take advantage of distance and cover...

> What I'm suggesting removes nothing from the game as it stands, it
> just adds an element that allows players to approach arrests the way
> they want to play the game.

I'm happy enough with the system as it stands (it saves having to change
weapons in a hurry if the "club them with daystick" option doesn't work
as planned), but I'd be happy enough to see a daystick included in future
expansions, even if I'd be unlikely to use it all that often. I'd much
rather see Lawmasters make an appearance in gameplay, as they're right up
there with the Lawgiver as one of the definitive Dredd elements.

> Maybe I should start a petition! :)

Make sure you find someone to sign up as Tom Hall. I understand no game-
related petition is complete without his signature.

Graeme
--
http://members.optusnet.com.au/graeme

"I stayed up all night playing poker with tarot cards.
I got a full house and four people died." - Steve Wright.

Charles E. Hardwidge

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Oct 4, 2003, 3:02:40 AM10/4/03
to
>Mark's case for *not* including the daystick makes sense

>enough to me (from the perspective of design and realism
>of play), but it does seem that it wouldn't have taken much
>work to include the option.

Trivial with possible far reaching implications.

>I'm guessing that the question Rebellion asked (and answered)
>themselves is whether the majority of players would actually
>have used it on a regular basis?

Rebellion clearly don't understand the relationship between Dredd, MC-1 and
the player. Whether it's used or inconsistent with current FPS 'trends' is
pure rhetoric. They diluted the character, the narrative potential, and the
player experience by its absence. Their thinking, design objectives, and
game are completely wrong on this issue.

"A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." - Shigeru
Miyamoto.

>> Maybe I should start a petition! :)

http://www.petitiononline.com/DREDD/petition.html

--
Charles E. Hardwidge.


Zoë Robinson

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Oct 4, 2003, 3:18:34 PM10/4/03
to
"jayeff" <valkyrie...@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message
news:bll4b6$lsp$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
<Cut>

> That was exactly what I was talking about. I did get what Mark was saying.
I
> don't think you got what I was saying though. Not giving Dredd a daystick
> because he starts with a gun is missing the point of why he should have a
> daystick, as Beerman realised - for non lethal attacks

There's also the question of where he's going to carry it though, isn't
there. He can only carry so much and in the comic I'm reasonably sure the
daystick is held on his Lawmaster.

> Mark made a good point on "most of the perps you face in the game are
armed,
> so it's standard practice for Dredd to return fire," but let it down with
> "only resorting to a melee attack if they get in his face". Which is where
> the aspects of the game I have issues with arises. (the end part of that
> paragraph I'm not disagreeing with, though I'm sticking to the fact he
> doesn't pistol whip by default).

I'm pretty sure he's beaten people with an empty gun before and it's true
that he tends not to bother with getting into a melee if he can just shoot
perps or get them to surrender by being threatening yet non-violent.

> If this was just another FPS where you are just meant to blow away most
> things that move then I'd be a bit of a twat to argue this. As the idea is
> to subdue and arrest some of your opponents this makes it particularly
> relevant.
>
> > > I'm no martial arts expert but I know several points on the body
> > > where, if hit with sufficient skill, will kill someone in one blow.
> >
> > Sufficient *force*. Skill is just what lets you hit them in the first
> > place.

Not necessarily. There are points on the body that render a person
unconcious that don't require force at all, just the skill to hit them (one
is behind the lower ribs, for example).

> > Besides, the one-hit-kill stuff is 90+% myth. If you're opponent
> > stands around and compliantly lets you hit them how you want, you might
> > just pull it off, but people are surprisingly tough in practice.

This is true, but with enough skill you can beat a couple of people down.
You'd be hard-pressed to beat three, however, and four or more will kick the
shit out of any martial artist. Films lie, unless you're Bruce Lee; in
which case they bend the truth a little.

> I'm comparing the
> lethality of being shot to the lethality of being punched and you are
> telling me a bullet is less lethal. !

Bullets aren't as lethal as people make out. Okay, they're more lethal than
being punched - in most cases - but they aren't 100% lethal. You need to be
a good shot.

> Integral to who? Do all your friends know about stumm gas grenades or the
> different ammo types in a lawgiver? Probably not, so why bother with them
> either?

Actually, they did know about the different rounds on the Lawgiver. The
film did get some things right, remember.

Zoë Robinson

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Oct 4, 2003, 3:29:46 PM10/4/03
to
"jayeff" <valkyrie...@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message
news:bll4b7$lsp$2...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
<Cut>

> b) give him a 'smart' fist, he automatically pulls his punches for perps
and
> does fist of Dredd for zombies and stuff. How hard is that to code in?

It's an IF check, if Rebellion is coding in C++ or anything similar.

> Do I? I think you have me confused with someone else.

Obviously I confused you with someone who didn't feel the need to act like a
cretin and attempt to look smart. Are you sure you're not Charlie by
another name?

> How many people use the gauntlet
> > in Quake 3?
>
> HTF should I know?
>
> How about the instakill melee weapon from Unreal Tournament?
>
> Ditto for that too.

Both of these were rhetorical questions, as should have been evident when
taken in the context of the paragraph you've cut up in order to sound smart
when replying.

> My theory was based on the amount of cheating arseholes there are on the
> games I have played online.

Do they cheat with melee weapons? I'm not aware of any codes or scripts
that choose to utilise the melee weapons in either Quake 3, Unreal
Tournament or any other deathmatch online game. Simply put, these weapons
require too much skill for a cheater to ever find them useful.

Zoë

jayeff

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Oct 4, 2003, 8:48:17 PM10/4/03
to

"Zoë Robinson" <nobt...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:bln735$edhd1$1...@ID-97417.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "jayeff" <valkyrie...@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:bll4b7$lsp$2...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> <Cut>
> > b) give him a 'smart' fist, he automatically pulls his punches for perps
> and
> > does fist of Dredd for zombies and stuff. How hard is that to code in?
>
> It's an IF check, if Rebellion is coding in C++ or anything similar.
>
> > Do I? I think you have me confused with someone else.
>
> Obviously I confused you with someone who didn't feel the need to act like
a
> cretin and attempt to look smart. Are you sure you're not Charlie by
> another name?

And I confused you with someone who could hold a sensible conversation
without being offensive. You sure *you* aren't Charlie?

J


jayeff

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Oct 4, 2003, 8:57:34 PM10/4/03
to
> > If perps are shooting at Dredd he usually shoots back, I don't have a
> > problem with that. The daystick as a 'stealth' weapon though? Not in
> > Dredd's hands.
>
> Just going by memory, but the didn't the daystick only really rise to
> prominence in the 90s, when writers like Millar and Ennis gave artists
> like Hinkleton and the Bisley clones the oportunity to draw it with
> gobbets of flesh hanging off the end? I may be wrong, but up until that
> point it had been little more than a stick Dredd occasionally used to
> beat people with, rather than one of the essential ingredients of Dredd.

That could well be the case. Though that doesn't take anything away from
what I've been saying, they aren't they selling this on 80s Dredd after all.

> As for pistol whipping, yeh ok I'll concede that one.
> > But Dredd uses his fists and daystick far more than pistol whips so I
> > don't quite get the argument on him not doing so, except on the
> > grounds of gameplay. Unless you really do believe this is canon for
> > Dredd.
>
> Mark's case for *not* inlcuding the daystick makes sense enough to me
> (from the perspective of design and realism of play), but it does seem
> that it wouldn't have taken much work to include the option. I'm
> guessing that the question Rebellion asked (and answered) themselves is
> whether the majority of players would actually have used it on a regular
> basis?

From the general attitude I'm guessing not. Not a lot of point in a one man
crusade! Guess I'll just have to lump it.

> > I played it the way you are supposed to - minimal firing/maximum
> > 'taunts' - and got 46 arrests (Senior Judge!!) on Normal, with the
> > occasional use of stumm gas. Suspension of disbelief fell a little
> > flat when I was standing next to a perp, 'taunted' and (thinking I was
> > being restrained) used my fist when they didn't surrender and before
> > they'd drawn their weapon. Instant kill and a warning from central.
>
> Try mis-cycling your Lawgiver rounds and incinerating a perp... They
> get reall touchy about that.

Fun though!

> > WTF is that about? So it's less lethal to blow their kneecaps off then
> > to thwap them. It's just plain silly. You do realise when the
> > multiplayer games are up and running that people won't even bother
> > with firearms.
>
> Because it makes much more sense to close in with someone who can hurt
> you as badly in close quarters as you can hurt them, rather than exchange
> fire and take advantage of distance and cover...

Fair enough

> > What I'm suggesting removes nothing from the game as it stands, it
> > just adds an element that allows players to approach arrests the way
> > they want to play the game.
>
> I'm happy enough with the system as it stands (it saves having to change
> weapons in a hurry if the "club them with daystick" option doesn't work
> as planned), but I'd be happy enough to see a daystick included in future
> expansions, even if I'd be unlikely to use it all that often. I'd much
> rather see Lawmasters make an appearance in gameplay, as they're right up
> there with the Lawgiver as one of the definitive Dredd elements.

I thought there was going to be on later levels. Mmm, time for a new
crusade!

> > Maybe I should start a petition! :)
>
> Make sure you find someone to sign up as Tom Hall. I understand no game-
> related petition is complete without his signature.

Or certain other persons.....

Jay


Zoë Robinson

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Oct 4, 2003, 9:11:27 PM10/4/03
to
"jayeff" <valkyrie...@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message
news:blnpoh$6hh$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
<Cut>

> And I confused you with someone who could hold a sensible conversation
> without being offensive. You sure *you* aren't Charlie?

Well, that's rich coming from you. When was the last time you managed to
post in a topic without saying something insulting?

Actually, don't bother replying to that - I can't be bothered with you
anymore and I don't see the need to fill-up the newsgroup with an argument
nobody is interested in.

Zoė

Charles E Hardwidge

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Oct 5, 2003, 6:04:23 AM10/5/03
to
>From the general attitude I'm guessing not. Not a lot
>of point in a one man crusade! Guess I'll just have to lump it.

"I am easily pleased by excellence." - Winston Churchill.

Graeme

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Oct 5, 2003, 7:56:51 AM10/5/03
to
"jayeff" <valkyrie...@hotmail.invalid> wrote in
news:blnq9u$h7j$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk:

>> Just going by memory, but the didn't the daystick only really rise to
>> prominence in the 90s, when writers like Millar and Ennis gave
>> artists like Hinkleton and the Bisley clones the oportunity to draw
>> it with gobbets of flesh hanging off the end? I may be wrong, but up
>> until that point it had been little more than a stick Dredd
>> occasionally used to beat people with, rather than one of the
>> essential ingredients of Dredd.
>
> That could well be the case. Though that doesn't take anything away
> from what I've been saying, they aren't they selling this on 80s Dredd
> after all.

True, true.

>> Mark's case for *not* inlcuding the daystick makes sense enough to me
>> (from the perspective of design and realism of play), but it does
>> seem that it wouldn't have taken much work to include the option.
>> I'm guessing that the question Rebellion asked (and answered)
>> themselves is whether the majority of players would actually have
>> used it on a regular basis?
>
> From the general attitude I'm guessing not. Not a lot of point in a
> one man crusade! Guess I'll just have to lump it.

I'm not interested in getting involved in a crusade over it, mnyself, but
I wouldn't mind seeing a daystick option in the game. Including the
daystick would raise the question, though, of where the bootknife was
(apart from "in Dredd's boot")?

>> Try mis-cycling your Lawgiver rounds and incinerating a perp...
>> They get reall touchy about that.
>
> Fun though!

Ssh. That sort of thing brings down the SJS, apparently. I've forgotten
to give that one a try, yet, though.

I'd much rather see Lawmasters make an appearance in
>> gameplay, as they're right up there with the Lawgiver as one of the
>> definitive Dredd elements.
>
> I thought there was going to be on later levels. Mmm, time for a new
> crusade!

Not from what I've heard, but I haven't been following the game threads
religiously and could well be mistaken. I'd be *happy* to be mistaken in
this case.

Arthur Wyatt

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Oct 5, 2003, 9:03:10 AM10/5/03
to
How comes all the other looneys and self important nitwits who use
that petitions site manage to get thousands of signatures, yet you
only manage to get 25?

EDWARDEDDIEF

unread,
Oct 5, 2003, 9:17:51 AM10/5/03
to
>How comes all the other looneys and self important nitwits who use
>that petitions site manage to get thousands of signatures, yet you
>only manage to get 25?

Not only has got THE Tom Hall to sign, with a comment that makes the man sound
really dumb, but THE Ronald Villiers!

The actors Actor!

The greatest actor who ever walked on the set of Chewing The Fat!

The man who gave Robert Carlysle acting lessons!

(for those not in the know, Ronald Villiers is the worst actor imaginable and a
recurring character in the scottish comedy show Chewing The Fat!)

Charles E Hardwidge

unread,
Oct 5, 2003, 9:22:28 AM10/5/03
to
>How comes all the other looneys and self important
>nitwits who use that petitions site manage to get
>thousands of signatures, yet you only manage to get 25?

1. I don't care enough to promote it.
2. The game isn't one that attracts attention.
3. Few people care about the game.

--
Charles E. Hardwidge


Jim Connick

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Oct 5, 2003, 3:53:13 PM10/5/03
to

"EDWARDEDDIEF" <edward...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031005091751...@mb-m12.aol.com...
: >How comes all the other looneys and self important nitwits who use

: >that petitions site manage to get thousands of signatures, yet you
: >only manage to get 25?
:
: Not only has got THE Tom Hall to sign, with a comment that makes the man
sound
: really dumb, but THE Ronald Villiers!

As well as such legends as Saddam Hussein, and someone quoting weebl & bob's
Badger song.
Truelly a worthwhile petition.

EDWARDEDDIEF

unread,
Oct 5, 2003, 4:00:23 PM10/5/03
to
>: >How comes all the other looneys and self important nitwits who use
>: >that petitions site manage to get thousands of signatures, yet you
>: >only manage to get 25?
>:
>: Not only has got THE Tom Hall to sign, with a comment that makes the man
>sound
>: really dumb, but THE Ronald Villiers!
>
>As well as such legends as Saddam Hussein, and someone quoting weebl & bob's
>Badger song.
>Truelly a worthwhile petition.
>

I've got to put my hand up to being Saddam Hussein. T'was me, I confess. I
couldn't resist it.

Jim Connick

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Oct 5, 2003, 4:21:48 PM10/5/03
to

"EDWARDEDDIEF" <edward...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031005160023...@mb-m28.aol.com...
: >: >How comes all the other looneys and self important nitwits who use

I have no idea what sad prick did the Badger bit.
*cough*
What?

Charles E Hardwidge

unread,
Oct 5, 2003, 5:12:53 PM10/5/03
to
>>I've got to put my hand up to being Saddam Hussein.
>I have no idea what sad prick did the Badger bit.

You guys are pretty sad if that's the level you operate at.

--
Charles E. Hardwidge


EDWARDEDDIEF

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Oct 5, 2003, 6:30:15 PM10/5/03
to

Alright, who put Tom Hall's in?

jayeff

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Oct 5, 2003, 7:13:58 PM10/5/03
to

"Zoë Robinson" <nobt...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:blnr3p$eh5r9$1...@ID-97417.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "jayeff" <valkyrie...@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:blnpoh$6hh$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> <Cut>
> > And I confused you with someone who could hold a sensible conversation
> > without being offensive. You sure *you* aren't Charlie?
>
> Well, that's rich coming from you. When was the last time you managed to
> post in a topic without saying something insulting?

Every. Till you started patronising me.

> Actually, don't bother replying to that - I can't be bothered with you
> anymore and I don't see the need to fill-up the newsgroup with an argument
> nobody is interested in.
>

Must...resist....
I couldn't top that anyway. First class text book rattle throwing. You own
this thread.
You are right, it's much better to fill this newsgroup up with digs & rants
at the Scojo/Charlie double act instead.

Jay


jayeff

unread,
Oct 5, 2003, 7:27:20 PM10/5/03
to
> >> Mark's case for *not* inlcuding the daystick makes sense enough to me
> >> (from the perspective of design and realism of play), but it does
> >> seem that it wouldn't have taken much work to include the option.
> >> I'm guessing that the question Rebellion asked (and answered)
> >> themselves is whether the majority of players would actually have
> >> used it on a regular basis?
> >
> > From the general attitude I'm guessing not. Not a lot of point in a
> > one man crusade! Guess I'll just have to lump it.
>
> I'm not interested in getting involved in a crusade over it, mnyself, but
> I wouldn't mind seeing a daystick option in the game. Including the
> daystick would raise the question, though, of where the bootknife was
> (apart from "in Dredd's boot")?

Now we are really getting obscure!

My case with the daystick is that it'd be an option rather than an
alternative. Hopefully it'll make it to the first add-on or the sequal.
Judging by the response here the public pressure isn't going to have much
sway.

> >> Try mis-cycling your Lawgiver rounds and incinerating a perp...
> >> They get reall touchy about that.
> >
> > Fun though!
>
> Ssh. That sort of thing brings down the SJS, apparently. I've forgotten
> to give that one a try, yet, though.

I took down about 6 before they finished me off. 5 or 6 AP rounds should do
it. They take pretty huge chunks out of you though

> I'd much rather see Lawmasters make an appearance in
> >> gameplay, as they're right up there with the Lawgiver as one of the
> >> definitive Dredd elements.
> >
> > I thought there was going to be on later levels. Mmm, time for a new
> > crusade!
>
> Not from what I've heard, but I haven't been following the game threads
> religiously and could well be mistaken. I'd be *happy* to be mistaken in
> this case.

I seem to have attracted the attention of the peanut gallery with this
thread so it'll just degenerate into flaming now anyway, no point in
debating this further here. Before Evil Zoė took over she made a point about
the daystick being on the Lawmaster which I have a feeling is correct and if
we are talking about being faithful to the strip then it's in keeping that
he doesn't have it to hand.

Jay


Graeme

unread,
Oct 5, 2003, 9:26:09 PM10/5/03
to
jayeff wrote:

>>cretin and attempt to look smart. Are you sure you're not Charlie by
>>another name?
>
>
> And I confused you with someone who could hold a sensible conversation
> without being offensive. You sure *you* aren't Charlie?

God, this is turning into a remake of "The Thing"!

Graeme

unread,
Oct 5, 2003, 9:59:49 PM10/5/03
to
jayeff wrote:

>>I'm not interested in getting involved in a crusade over it, mnyself, but
>>I wouldn't mind seeing a daystick option in the game. Including the
>>daystick would raise the question, though, of where the bootknife was
>>(apart from "in Dredd's boot")?
>
>
> Now we are really getting obscure!

Obscure? Obscure?!? I'll have you know that the bootknife has been
criticial to the resolution of, um, at least two stories that I can
think of :)

> My case with the daystick is that it'd be an option rather than an
> alternative. Hopefully it'll make it to the first add-on or the sequal.
> Judging by the response here the public pressure isn't going to have much
> sway.

Hard to tell, really. I'd be worried if Rebellion used this newsgroup
as the be-all and end-all of consumer feedback or games developemnt.
From the sounds of it Rebellion considered the daystick option, so
maybe subsequent patches or expansions will see them consider it more
and include it.

>>Ssh. That sort of thing brings down the SJS, apparently. I've forgotten
>>to give that one a try, yet, though.
>
> I took down about 6 before they finished me off. 5 or 6 AP rounds should do
> it. They take pretty huge chunks out of you though

Cool :) Hopefully the full release will allow multiplayer mode, so
players can band together to shoot perps and ambush the SJS.

Fraser

unread,
Oct 14, 2003, 1:56:50 PM10/14/03
to

And if you live outside of Calhab


"EDWARDEDDIEF" <edward...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20031005091751...@mb-m12.aol.com...


> >How comes all the other looneys and self important nitwits who use
> >that petitions site manage to get thousands of signatures, yet you
> >only manage to get 25?
>
> Not only has got THE Tom Hall to sign, with a comment that makes the man
sound
> really dumb, but THE Ronald Villiers!


What next, Reverend I.M Jolly or Supercop? Actually, trivia question here -
what connects those two characters to a major event in Dredd's world?

Fras
"And if you're unfortunate enough to live outside Calhab, tough shit"


EDWARDEDDIEF

unread,
Oct 14, 2003, 5:05:47 PM10/14/03
to
>> Not only has got THE Tom Hall to sign, with a comment that makes the man
>sound
>> really dumb, but THE Ronald Villiers!
>
>
>What next, Reverend I.M Jolly or Supercop? Actually, trivia question here -
>what connects those two characters to a major event in Dredd's world?
>
>Fras
>"And if you're unfortunate enough to live outside Calhab, tough shit"
>

Rikki Fulton Block in Block Mania.

What do I win?

Fraser

unread,
Oct 14, 2003, 6:33:38 PM10/14/03
to

"EDWARDEDDIEF" <edward...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031014170547...@mb-m14.aol.com...

Hey, Stirling, I don't tell you to get out the car.


Fras
>


EDWARDEDDIEF

unread,
Oct 14, 2003, 7:54:34 PM10/14/03
to
>> >What next, Reverend I.M Jolly or Supercop? Actually, trivia question
>here -
>> >what connects those two characters to a major event in Dredd's world?
>> >
>> >Fras
>> >"And if you're unfortunate enough to live outside Calhab, tough shit"
>> >
>>
>> Rikki Fulton Block in Block Mania.
>>
>> What do I win?
>
>Hey, Stirling, I don't tell you to get out the car.
>
>
>Fras
>>

My favourite is the chef trying to light the microwave and a guy in a pilot's
outfit walks by. Cue the line;

Nae wonder it's no' lighting, the pilot's gone oot!

EDWARDEDDIEF

unread,
Oct 14, 2003, 8:02:53 PM10/14/03
to
>> >What next, Reverend I.M Jolly or Supercop? Actually, trivia question
>here -
>> >what connects those two characters to a major event in Dredd's world?
>> >
>

>> Rikki Fulton Block in Block Mania.


>>
>> What do I win?
>
>Hey, Stirling, I don't tell you to get out the car.
>
>
>Fras
>>
>

My favourite line was when he was manky chef, trying to light a microwave oven.
A guy dressed in pilot's outfit walks by. He looks at him walk past, and cue
the line:

Nae wonder it won't light, the pilot's gone oot!

Fraser

unread,
Oct 15, 2003, 12:59:20 PM10/15/03
to

"EDWARDEDDIEF" <edward...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031014200253...@mb-m25.aol.com...


Or Supercop meets Taggart.

Rikki Fulton: Name?
Mark McManus: Taggart.
Rikki Fulton: T-a-g-g-a-r-t. First name?
Mark McManus: Chief inspector.
Rikki Fulton: What ye mean, like on the buses?

or the one (not I. M. Jolly) where the minister is doing Late Call, but he's
drinking from a glass of gin instead of water and gets progressively more
pissed as the sermon drones on.


All the more tragic when you consider BBC Scotland's Hogmany comedy output
includes the (good, but not as good as it used to be) Chewin' The Fat and
the abysmal Only an Excuse, which if you take out the Chick "ho ho ho"
Young, Dennis "play for your cunnry" Law, Graeme "for sure" Souness and
Frank "where's the burdz" McAvennie produces about 5 minutes of dire new
material every year. Jonathan Watson - what a fud.


Fras


Jim Connick

unread,
Oct 15, 2003, 1:44:11 PM10/15/03
to

"Fraser" wrote
: All the more tragic when you consider BBC Scotland's Hogmany comedy output

: includes the (good, but not as good as it used to be) Chewin' The Fat and
: the abysmal Only an Excuse, which if you take out the Chick "ho ho ho"
: Young, Dennis "play for your cunnry" Law, Graeme "for sure" Souness and
: Frank "where's the burdz" McAvennie produces about 5 minutes of dire new
: material every year. Jonathan Watson - what a fud.

I remember many years ago when OAE used to be geat. It started going
downhill when it switched from radio to telly, then plummeted even faster
when Tony Roper left.

ShuggyBarr

unread,
Oct 15, 2003, 3:46:50 PM10/15/03
to
>(good, but not as good as it used to be) Chewin' The Fat

because they are concentrating on the unbelievably good Still Game.

Fraser

unread,
Oct 15, 2003, 5:30:54 PM10/15/03
to
IIRC - and that's a big if, wasn't Tony Roper only on the TV version for a
year or two? Also, the mini OAE that gets done on the Tam Cowan show on
Monday nights - fuck I can't even remember its name - is dreadful. Some of
the sketches they do on the radio show are pretty good.


Fras

"Jim Connick" <tooth...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bmk276$nsaic$1...@ID-169905.news.uni-berlin.de...

EDWARDEDDIEF

unread,
Oct 15, 2003, 4:20:50 PM10/15/03
to
>>(good, but not as good as it used to be) Chewin' The Fat
>
>because they are concentrating on the unbelievably good Still Game.

The problem with Chewin' The Fat was it was always the same gags, over and over
again. Still Game is excellent because they don't do that.

But you can't beat Scotch & Wry. Classic stuff.


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