Reasons for Marx Bros. decline at Paramount
Matt Barry
are that DUCK SOUP essentially flopped at the box office, and also that
they were overexposed to audiences in too many movies.
While DUCK SOUP may have underperformed at the box office, it seems odd
considering all the pseudo-political satires that were out around the
same time, such as MILLION DOLLAR LEGS and DIPLOMANIACS.
As for the issue of overexposure, it doesn't seem to make sense when
you consider that other popular comedians of the time, like Wheeler and
Woolsey (who are hilarious, by the way), were making 4-5 films a year
at that time, and continued making at least 2-3 films a year until the
mid-to-late 30s.
I've also heard the argument that the Marx Bros. were seen as slightly
"highbrow" or even "intellectual" comedians, at least compared to the
average vaudeville acts being transferred to film at the time. I
believe several of Groucho's ideas for MONKEY BUSINESS were met with
disapproval from the front office who feared the references would go
over the heads of average audiences. Then, as now, I'm sure, the
majority of audiences wanted to see the cheapest, quickest laughs
possible for a good time at the movies as opposed to having to think or
worry about understanding references. Could this have been part of the
reason the Marx Bros. began to slip in popularity after HORSEFEATHERS?
Matt
Gramm...@mindspring.com
It's really hard to know, and I haven't read anything specifically
about it. But it was the depression, things were hard all over. It may
just be that the Marx Brothers' contract was up just then and since
times were tough and someone had to go, they were it.
Million Dollar Legs is a very funnny movie, but somehwo it doesn't feel
as radical, or as off-the-wall, as Duck Soup. There's something
dangerous about the Marx Brothers.
Frank J. Lhota
Stooges Journal, has researched the magazine Motion Picture Herald, a trade
publication for movie exhibitors. This magazine had a column called "What
the Picture Did For Me", where exhibitors would send in letters on how the
current films were doing at their theaters. In the issues that came out
around the time of the release of "Duck Soup", the exhibitors who wrote made
it quite clear why this film bombed. The major draw of the Marx Brothers
back then was the musical numbers: many fans came primarily to see the Chico
piano number or the Harpo harp solo. Word got around rather quickly that
"Duck Soup" had no such numbers, and that killed it at the box office!
Nowadays, most Marx Brothers fans emphasise the comedy, and regard the
musical numbers as merely a pleasant extra. In the 30's, tastes were *much*
different.
Irving Thalberg learned from the "Duck Soup" experience: all of the Marx
Brothers MGM films had musical numbers.
--
"All things extant in this world,
Gods of Heaven, gods of Earth,
Let everything be as it should be;
Thus shall it be!"
- Magical chant from "Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi"
"Drizzle, Drazzle, Drozzle, Drome,
Time for this one to come home!"
- Mr. Lizard from "Tooter Turtle"
Gramm...@mindspring.com
Frank J. Lhota wrote:
> Rich Finegan, a friend of mine who frequently contributes to The Three
> Stooges Journal, has researched the magazine Motion Picture Herald, a trade
> publication for movie exhibitors. This magazine had a column called "What
> the Picture Did For Me", where exhibitors would send in letters on how the
> current films were doing at their theaters. In the issues that came out
> around the time of the release of "Duck Soup", the exhibitors who wrote made
> it quite clear why this film bombed. The major draw of the Marx Brothers
> back then was the musical numbers: many fans came primarily to see the Chico
> piano number or the Harpo harp solo. Word got around rather quickly that
> "Duck Soup" had no such numbers, and that killed it at the box office!
>
> Nowadays, most Marx Brothers fans emphasise the comedy, and regard the
> musical numbers as merely a pleasant extra. In the 30's, tastes were *much*
> different.
> Irving Thalberg learned from the "Duck Soup" experience: all of the Marx
> Brothers MGM films had musical numbers.
I don't know if I buy this. Duck Soup certainly had musical numbers,
and elaborate ones at that. It didn't have a harp solo or a piano solo,
but could that have made the difference? There were a heck of a lot of
movies that didn't have harp or piano solos. It just doesn't make a lot
of sense to me.
Matt Barry
Gramm...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> It's really hard to know, and I haven't read anything specifically
> about it. But it was the depression, things were hard all over. It may
> just be that the Marx Brothers' contract was up just then and since
> times were tough and someone had to go, they were it.
>
> Million Dollar Legs is a very funnny movie, but somehwo it doesn't feel
> as radical, or as off-the-wall, as Duck Soup. There's something
> dangerous about the Marx Brothers.
DIPLOMANIACS is also very funny if you get a chance to see it. It's
very similar to DUCK SOUP, including the casting of Louis Calhern as
the villain. However, it seems to lack the certain tightness and comic
pacing that DUCK SOUP has. I think that is why DUCK SOUP has held up so
well after 70 years (hard to believe the film is already 73 years old!)
Matt
Paige
"intellectual" comedians, but I think you're onto something. My
favorite analogy is:
The Marx Brothers are filet mignon, while the Three Stooges are spam.
Anyway ... I remember a scene from Animal Crackers (I think?) in which
Groucho makes a joke about subjunctives. Hilarious! Does the average
movie goer know what a subjunctive is?
paige
Frank J. Lhota
news:1141258840.0...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I don't know if I buy this. Duck Soup certainly had musical numbers,
> and elaborate ones at that. It didn't have a harp solo or a piano solo,
> but could that have made the difference? There were a heck of a lot of
> movies that didn't have harp or piano solos. It just doesn't make a lot
> of sense to me.
It is all a question of expectations. A heck of a lot of films do not have
martial arts scenes either, but a Jackie Chan film without martial arts
could disappoint the legion of Chan fans who go to see his films to witness
Chan's brilliant fighting technique.
The same could be said of the Marx Brothers in the 1930's. They had fans who
looked forward to seeing Chico and Harpo play. When you fail to meet the
expectations of your fan base, you are bound to suffer at the box office.
I say this not in defense of the 30's aesthetics. Personally, I find "Duck
Soup" to be the funniest films that they ever did, and I consider it to be a
true shame that their tenure at Paramount was terminated as a result of this
excellent picture.
Roger the Saurus
"Paige" <paige...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1141261736.9...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
It's a tunnel that goes under a junctive. The opposite of a viaduct. (OK,
who wants to give the next line?)
--
Roger the Saurus
(remove bollix to reply)
Paige
Why a duck?
paige
Matt Barry
I enjoy comedians like Abbott and Costello and the Three Stooges but I
find I cannot re-watch their films dozens of times the way I can the
Marx Bros. films. I think the element of humor that rewards the
audience for watching closely is what makes it that way (I still find
new lines in ANIMAL CRACKERS every time I watch it that I hadn't heard
before). Really, it's the same reason that people can re-watch the
films of Chaplin, Keaton, Laurel and Hardy, Fields, etc. for many years
and never tire of them. What I love about these comedians is that they
require audiences to think a little bit in order to catch and
appreciate all the jokes and gags, yet they are completely and utterly
hilarious. One never watches the films to "appreciate the quality of
the gags", but rather just to laugh yourself sick. That's the beauty of
these comedies. On the other hand, far too many recent comedies have
begun to include quirkiness and "references" as a sort of built-in
production value. Sure, it's great to think about what you're watching,
but quirkiness just for the sake of quirkiness does not equal funny.
It's important to remember that once the Marx Bros. started making
films created directly for the screen, they had to broaden the humor
just a bit to appeal to a wider audience. They had some of their
biggest success on the New York stage, and attracted the attention of
many "serious" critics and humorists who might have avoided other
vaudeville-inspired acts (the stage version of ANIMAL CRACKERS features
a journalist named Wally Winston, thought to be a play on columnist
Walter Winchell). But at a time when the country was still (I believe)
93% rural, certain jokes that went over well on Broadway needed to be
expanded to have a more universal appeal. (Plus, they're movies were
shown overseas and were quite popular in France; critic Antonin Artaud
commended ANIMAL CRACKERS as a return to the pure surrealism not seen
since the silent comedies).
The Paramount comedies are probably their purest films, the best idea
of what their humor was all about. The first two MGM do a good job of
re-capturing that style of humor (in between some plot and musical
scenes), but the later films show the deficiencies in giving the Marx
Bros. somewhat generic scripts that could have been just as easily
played by the Ritz Bros. or Abbott and Costello.
My favorite of the early films is probably ANIMAL CRACKERS, only
because it captures the feel of watching the Broadway show so well, and
the non-stop one-liners from Groucho are some of the best. DUCK SOUP
though will probably be the film that is still held in just as high a
regard in another 73 years. One of the true timeless masterpieces of
comedy.
Matt
Gramm...@mindspring.com
Frank J. Lhota wrote:
> <Gramm...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:1141258840.0...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > I don't know if I buy this. Duck Soup certainly had musical numbers,
> > and elaborate ones at that. It didn't have a harp solo or a piano solo,
> > but could that have made the difference? There were a heck of a lot of
> > movies that didn't have harp or piano solos. It just doesn't make a lot
> > of sense to me.
>
> It is all a question of expectations. A heck of a lot of films do not have
> martial arts scenes either, but a Jackie Chan film without martial arts
> could disappoint the legion of Chan fans who go to see his films to witness
> Chan's brilliant fighting technique.
>
> The same could be said of the Marx Brothers in the 1930's. They had fans who
> looked forward to seeing Chico and Harpo play. When you fail to meet the
> expectations of your fan base, you are bound to suffer at the box office.
>
> I say this not in defense of the 30's aesthetics. Personally, I find "Duck
> Soup" to be the funniest films that they ever did, and I consider it to be a
> true shame that their tenure at Paramount was terminated as a result of this
> excellent picture.
>
kind of odd.
I wonder if I could find some original reviews.
Paige
I agree. I find that I can watch the Marx Bros. over and over again. I
laugh anew every time. The same thing for me with The Honeymooners and
I Love Lucy.
One of my favorite Paramount movies is Monkey Business. I like every
gag in that movie. And I enjoyed the supporting cast in that one more
than any of the other movies. Thelma Todd (the gangster's wife? The
blonde?) She was fantastic ... I loved her wild personality. She was
one of the few characters that was on an even playing field with
Groucho. Maybe it's because he didn't insult her as much.
A Day at the Races is one of my favorite of the MGM group.
paige
Matt Barry
Thelma Todd was great with the Marxes! Ashame she never worked with
them again. Her early death just a couple years after those films was a
real tragic loss to film comedy.
MONKEY BUSINESS is alot of fun because it gives the Marxes a chance
just to cut loose, with very little story, and get into all sorts of
comic mischief. It also has some of the best one-liners of any of their
films.
As for the MGMs, I used to think A NIGHT AT THE OPERA was the funniest
movie I'd ever seen, but after re-watching it many times, it seems just
a tad too predictable compared to those wild and crazy Paramounts. A
DAY AT THE RACES holds up well, too, perhaps their last masterpiece.
Have you seen the last two films they made, A NIGHT IN CASABLANCA and
LOVE HAPPY?
Matt
Paige
Matt Barry wrote:
> As for the MGMs, I used to think A NIGHT AT THE OPERA was the funniest
> movie I'd ever seen, but after re-watching it many times, it seems just
> a tad too predictable compared to those wild and crazy Paramounts. A
> DAY AT THE RACES holds up well, too, perhaps their last masterpiece.
> Have you seen the last two films they made, A NIGHT IN CASABLANCA and
> LOVE HAPPY?
>
> Matt
Yes, I've seen Night in Casablanca, but not Love Happy. Hope to see it
soon.
Casablanca was a hoot from start to finish ...that opening scene with
Harpo leaning against the wall ... har!
paige
Roger the Saurus
> Hi, Matt:
> I agree. I find that I can watch the Marx Bros. over and over again. I
> laugh anew every time. The same thing for me with The Honeymooners and
> I Love Lucy.
>
> One of my favorite Paramount movies is Monkey Business. I like every
> gag in that movie. And I enjoyed the supporting cast in that one more
> than any of the other movies. Thelma Todd (the gangster's wife? The
> blonde?) She was fantastic ... I loved her wild personality. She was
> one of the few characters that was on an even playing field with
> Groucho. Maybe it's because he didn't insult her as much.
Monkey Business is my favourite as well. As Joe Adamson put it, in other
films they run a hotel, a sanatorium or a circus. In Monkey Business they
run nothing but amok.
Matt Barry
A NIGHT IN CASABLANCA is surprisingly good. LOVE HAPPY, though, is a
little different than their others. Harpo is really the main character,
and the film has none of the pacing and jokes of the earlier films
(even the MGMs). Groucho is also somewhat out of character in LOVE
HAPPY as well. It's worth seeing once though. It actually came out on
DVD a couple years ago. I picked a copy up at Best Buy but then it
seemed to disappear from store shelves after a while.
Matt
Paige
couple of hours!
paige
bob
My favorite Marx film is Monkey Business as well. The Marxes are allowed
to go full steam without any silly love plots beyond Zeppo's little
affair or any major staged (like MGM's) musical scenes that get in the
way of the comedy. I showed my 5th grade class Monkey Business and they
loved it then I showed them A Night AT the Operea and it didn't hold
their interest long except for the state room and Harpo scenes. Have you
ever seen the LUCY episode where Harpo Marx comes on? My favorite LUCY
episode.
D.
Paige
bob wrote:
Have you
> ever seen the LUCY episode where Harpo Marx comes on? My favorite LUCY
> episode.
> D.
Yes, I did! Lucy and Harpo were terrific. Loved the mirror scene. When
I saw Room Service a few weeks ago, I was thrilled to see Lucy ... I
had no idea she was in a Marx Brothers movie.
paige
Roger the Saurus
Wait till you see Marilyn Monroe in Love Happy
"Men keep following me"
"I can't think why"