British comedy today
Jeff Messenger
is becoming Gothic, male-oriented, much more black humour? Is it due to more
TV series, less of the Glasgow Empire experience that used to colour the
material?
John Smith
that than Friends!
"Jeff Messenger" <jeff...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xDs8e.83974$C12....@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Aaron
inclined to argue the opposite.
But yes, much new comedy is a lot darker than anything you would have
seen, say, 15 years ago.
...And a pig eating paper for have an hour would be far better than
Friends. ;)
Aaron
Vince
In your not-so-humble-opinion.
I can't argue that 'Friends' is better than '15 Storeys High', 'The Smoking
Room', 'Phoenix Nights' or 'Peep Show' (for example). But that's hardly a
fair comparison.
Those are all 'cult' series watched by a minority of people, whilst
'Friends' was a prime-time blockbuster. And it was brilliant considering
that was the case.
How many prime-time British series are anywhere near as good? I'm mean in
recent times of course.
'My Family'? 'My Hero'? 'Ab Fab'?, Hardly. Any others?
I haven't explained myself very well. I'm not saying that because 'Friends'
has had a lot of money lavished on it - then we all have to lower our
standards and enjoy it.
I think that it's a very cleverly written, well acted comedy, with multiple
plot lines and believable characters and situations - that has provided a
consistently high standard for a couple of hundred episodes. So I personally
think it it's in the top 50 SitComs of all time (obviously I'm in the
minority here).
Of course, if you're looking for good US comedy, 'Seinfeld' was way ahead of
the rest.
Clearly you have strong opinions you'll want to tell us what you consider
are the best comedies at the moment.
John J. Smith
Erm. Nope.
Justify why you think theres been any sea-change in British comedy... And what
"Glasgow Empire" experience?
I would say things like Men Behaving Badly, The Day Today, League of Gentlemen,
and Ab Fab were all black comedies...
Recently the "big thing" was Little Britian, which I always reckoned to be crap.
My recent faves have both been relatively dark: Monkey Dust, Gareth Merenghi's
Darkplace and I am not an animal. But overall, not much difference. A lot of
substandard comedies commisioned in recent years such as My Family, My Hero and
Life according to Bex. Nathan Barley was pretty disappointing too.
Best british comedy in last 4 months was 7 Days, a topical programme in BBC3.
But it had a laugh every 30 seconds, which I haven't seen for years...
Smid
Janet
"Jeff Messenger" <jeff...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xDs8e.83974$C12....@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
I think 'League of Gentleman' set a trend for dark, surreal, offbeat
sitcoms. I've noticed several in this style (none as good as the original)
in the years since. 'Little Britain' seems to borrow heavily from 'LOG'.
But 'male-oriented'? I hadn't noticed that particularly.
Janet
Janet
"Vince" <vme...@nospamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:wj49e.102391$C12....@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> "Aaron" wrote
>> Mmm, not so sure about the male-oriented personally, would be more
>> inclined to argue the opposite.
>> But yes, much new comedy is a lot darker than anything you would have
>> seen, say, 15 years ago.
>
>> ...And a pig eating paper for have an hour would be far better than
>> Friends. ;)
>
> In your not-so-humble-opinion.
>
> I haven't explained myself very well. I'm not saying that because
> 'Friends' has had a lot of money lavished on it - then we all have to
> lower our standards and enjoy it.
>
> I think that it's a very cleverly written, well acted comedy, with
> multiple plot lines and believable characters and situations - that has
> provided a consistently high standard for a couple of hundred episodes. So
> I personally think it it's in the top 50 SitComs of all time (obviously
> I'm in the minority here).
>
Well, the only episode of 'Friends' I ever saw was about as funny as a dose
of clap. But I may have just been unlucky in my choice. It was the episode
set in England, and dragged in just about every negative stereotype and
misconception the Americans have about the British - including the old
cliche about 'saving our ass' in the war. I remember reading two or three
articles in papers and magazines making fun of it. One of them headlined it
as 'The one where they piss off the British'.
I never watched it again, so I'll have to take your word for it that I
missed a treat.
Janet
John J. Smith
>
>> I haven't explained myself very well. I'm not saying that because
>> 'Friends' has had a lot of money lavished on it - then we all have to
>> lower our standards and enjoy it.
>>
>> I think that it's a very cleverly written, well acted comedy, with
>> multiple plot lines and believable characters and situations - that has
>> provided a consistently high standard for a couple of hundred episodes. So
>> I personally think it it's in the top 50 SitComs of all time (obviously
>> I'm in the minority here).
>
> Well, the only episode of 'Friends' I ever saw was about as funny as a dose
> of clap. But I may have just been unlucky in my choice. It was the episode
> set in England, and dragged in just about every negative stereotype and
> misconception the Americans have about the British - including the old
> cliche about 'saving our ass' in the war. I remember reading two or three
> articles in papers and magazines making fun of it. One of them headlined it
> as 'The one where they piss off the British'.
>
> I never watched it again, so I'll have to take your word for it that I
> missed a treat.
I have a number of friends (sic) who criticise Friends but have invariably
caught barely an episode worth of stuff. I occasionally quote things from it,
and they go "wheres that from?" "Friends" and still won't watch it.
One of them refuses to watch Seinfeld on the same basis, though it was never
given anything close to a decent timeslot in the uk...
Friends, like any series, has its peaks and its troughs. The first four
series have a lot of very very good episodes, and they do rate up there with
Cheers and Mash in that sense. There is a "six good looking new yorkers" thing
which you have to get over and realise that all the character are flawed in
different ways. And its in there the comedy lies...
It did go seriously downhill about the 6-8th seasons, they wounded it badly
when they made the two strongest characters (Chandler and Monica) go out
together, and the romance came to fore. The romance has always been the
weakest area of Friends, but obviously some fans seem to want that bit
more than the comedy... The English episode (it was English rather than British,
they spend all their time in London) was slap bang in the middle of
that bad period and was a particularly awful episode (I remember Married with
Childrens London episode being equally cringe making).
It did pick up near the end too... Overall, worth a watch, and much maligned
for its descent into a soap at one point. Still funny though, even at its
lowest point and beats a lot of recent British sitcom efforts...
Smid
Aaron
recently (thinking mainly According to Bex here) is an insult to
comedy.
I must agree with John J. Smith, though - The Comic Side of 7 Days was
original, well written shock-humour, a huge change from the likes of My
Family if nothing else. Along a similar vein, I felt that BBC Four's
The Late Edition was also very funny. Not to everyone's tastes I
suppose, but I liked it.
Also Green Wing. Considering that it was essentially sketches linked by
a storyline to a sitcom format, and then shot and presented as if it
were a drama, it was a very well written programme, whether you found
it funny or not.
>From another writing sense, Two Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps
has been done very well. Not strictly my taste in humour, I must admit,
but the number of series alone (I believe 5 has just ended) is proof of
its success.
John J. Smith
> Best comedies at the moment? Hard one, that. Much of what's been on
> recently (thinking mainly According to Bex here) is an insult to
> comedy.
>
> I must agree with John J. Smith, though - The Comic Side of 7 Days was
> original, well written shock-humour, a huge change from the likes of My
> Family if nothing else. Along a similar vein, I felt that BBC Four's
> The Late Edition was also very funny. Not to everyone's tastes I
> suppose, but I liked it.
Was the late edition the one which which was putting words into various celebs
mouths?
Mark Steel lectures on BBC4 were very good though...
Saddest thing about The Comic Side of 7 Days is that its topical and thus
not going to last years. I tried watching an old Spitting Image and its
humour does fade. So having this comedy fade is very very sad indeed.
> Also Green Wing. Considering that it was essentially sketches linked by
> a storyline to a sitcom format, and then shot and presented as if it
> were a drama, it was a very well written programme, whether you found
> it funny or not.
I sort of tried this, but I really couldn't get inspired to watch it.
I like some of the actresses (Mr Brittas's wife, and ET like Sarah Alexander,
and that one from Black Books), but I dunno. It was like an extended Smack
the Pony sketch. I might try it again if it comes back on...
>>From another writing sense, Two Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps
> has been done very well. Not strictly my taste in humour, I must admit,
> but the number of series alone (I believe 5 has just ended) is proof of
> its success.
Never liked that. It pales into insignificance compared to the superior
"Coupling" even without the bloke who left.
Smid
George Kincaid
the Friends and Seinfeld observations going on in this thread. Since so many
American sitcoms are set in New York City, there's a set of cultural themes
there folks elsewhere might not catch. One such idea is the "New Yorkers
outside New York" routine. I have to be careful here-comedy is of course
based on stereotypes--which I am about to present. Other Americans view that
town with some derision and also some sense of excitement. It's a great and
wonderful place, full of very strange people. New Yorkers can be pretty
arrogant--they can look down on the rest of the country as backward,
ignorant, and unsophisticated--nobody's as cultured, as liberal, or as
well-intentioned as New Yorkers. That's where the fun starts. They're human,
so they're going to be as dumb, lazy and bigoted as anybody else--but they
won't acknowledge that. They extend these attitudes towards the rest of the
world outside the US as well. There's a great Seinfeld episode about a trip
the group makes to Cincinnati, an old sophisticated place, too, but New
Yorkers see it as a hick town because it's, well, not New York. The Ohioans
look at them as if they're lunatics as they extend their strange sexual
mores and cultural standards to some educated folk. The London episodes you
all have discussed are part of that joke, too. The New Yorkers are afraid
that London is really everything they think New York is, so the belligerence
comes out of fear. Seinfeld's stand-up routine is full of material about the
displaced New Yorker theme. For a good sense of that joke, you might watch
the movie My Cousin Vinny. Hope this explanation makes Seinfeld and Friends
more understandable.
"John J. Smith" <smidllllllNichSp...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
message
news:slrnd6c409.j27.smidllll...@dominique-derval.ftel.co.uk...
George Kincaid
regional differences, reflecting the different cultures. The comedians from
the different areas use observations and stereotypes of their regions in
their work. As a Southerner, I notice things that comics like Jeff Foxworthy
or Andy Griffith see. Garrison Keilor pokes fun at the Midwest, since he's
from Minnesota. I wasn't just picking on New York--it's just that so many
shows seen in other parts of the world are set in the Big Apple. George
Carlin (a New Yorker) says you make fun of your own--and he certainly
skewers New York. Woody Allen's another example.
"George Kincaid" <george....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:wqu9e.613818$w62.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Trellis.com
I am a great fan of US comedians, am totally addicted to Tim Allen ( I would
kill for his standup routine on DVD) and am glued to ABC1's line up even
Ellen but "ELR" just leaves me cold it seems just whiny and annoying I am
not alone my partner agrees (she's from Michigan so it 's not just a brit
view) does it seem better over there?
Derek
Covenant
"Trellis.com" <Ivy.T...@Nwales.com> wrote in message
news:ZCz9e.13710$DU6...@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> George can I pose a question how do you relate to "Everybody Loves
Raymond"
> I am a great fan of US comedians,
> am totally addicted to Tim Allen ( I would
> kill for his standup routine on DVD)
Have you seen his performance on *Comedy's Dirtiest Dozen* ?
(Way before *Home Improvements*... Sharing the Bill with Bill Hicks and very
young Chris Rock...)
--
Covenant
A Man Who Has It...
George Kincaid
mean. Tim Allen's good--he has that quick Midwest wit, kind of sharp, like
David Letterman. That family is easier to relate to, they really care about
each other, I think is the attraction. They're also goofy! Raymond's family
are kind of mean, I think. Seinfeld was good because that group of folks
looked after each other, even they were all nuts. I was in Germany several
years ago, and Tim's popular there, too. Ellen I like too, with her off the
wll view of things. If you have a multi-region DVD player, Tim's stand-up
DVDs are available over here. You might check Amazon UK as well. I'll look
for you. Good talking with you. GK
"Trellis.com" <Ivy.T...@Nwales.com> wrote in message
news:ZCz9e.13710$DU6...@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
George Kincaid
Covenant mentioned something in this thread for you.news:miB9e.96362$cg1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
John J. Smith
> "Janet" <ian_...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>>Well, the only episode of 'Friends' I ever saw was about as funny as a dose
>>of clap. But I may have just been unlucky in my choice. It was the episode
>>set in England, and dragged in just about every negative stereotype and
>>misconception the Americans have about the British - including the old
>>cliche about 'saving our ass' in the war. I remember reading two or three
>>articles in papers and magazines making fun of it. One of them headlined it
>>as 'The one where they piss off the British'.
>
> But I am curious about how a similar episode of the Simpsons was
> received. They too, used just about every old stereotype for
> material, but were a bit more clever, in fact the jokes seemed more
> aimed at American ignorance for example, Homer yelling at a hotel
> clerk, "we saved your asses in Vietnam!" LOL!
Married with Children did it too. I think probably before Friends or Simpsons...
Smid
FDM
>I'm not a Raymond fan either. He's really whiny and his wife's just plain
>mean. Tim Allen's good--he has that quick Midwest wit, kind of sharp, like
>David Letterman. That family is easier to relate to, they really care about
>each other, I think is the attraction. They're also goofy! Raymond's family
>are kind of mean, I think. Seinfeld was good because that group of folks
>looked after each other, even they were all nuts. I was in Germany several
>years ago, and Tim's popular there, too.
Still is. I did a little tour of Christmas Markets last December and
saw Home Improvement in German every day. I think it translates well
because it's not cultural humor, and most of the humor is based on
relationships and of course some great site gags.
http://home.comcast.net/~pcole11/
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Aaron
> Was the late edition the one which which was putting words into
various celebs
> mouths?
Ah no, I think you mean 2004 The Stupid Version. The Late Edition just
finished last week, starring Marcus Brigstocke. Kind of a cross between
Paxman-Newsnight-Interviews, HIGNFY, and a sketch show.
George Kincaid
problems of raising teenagers would be pretty universal, too.
"FDM" <strat59_00atyahood0tc0m> wrote in message
news:hu3g61pnmiqv8qt3e...@4ax.com...
Calum Benson
>
> Married with Children did it too. I think probably before Friends or Simpsons...
Unfortunately (or more likely, fortunately), the horrendous screeching
audience that accompanied MWC made me switch off about two minutes into
any given episode. (Much the same with Friends, actually, although at
least they didn't have to add two minutes to every show to let the
audience screech in that one.)
George Kincaid
wasn't satire, it was sadism!
"Calum Benson" <calum....@nospampleaseimscottish.iol.ie> wrote in message
news:d4af69$ld5$1...@dorito.esatclear.ie...
Derek
> Sorry, I'm not finding any Tim Allen for UK machines or Region 0. I think
> Covenant mentioned something in this thread for you.
> "George Kincaid" <george....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:miB9e.96362$cg1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > I'm not a Raymond fan either. He's really whiny and his wife's just
plain
> > mean. Tim Allen's good--he has that quick Midwest wit, kind of sharp,
like
> > David Letterman. That family is easier to relate to, they really care
> > about each other, I think is the attraction. They're also goofy!
> > Raymond's family are kind of mean, I think. Seinfeld was good because
that
> > group of folks looked after each other, even they were all nuts. I was
in
> > Germany several years ago, and Tim's popular there, too. Ellen I like
too,
> > with her off the wll view of things. If you have a multi-region DVD
> > player, Tim's stand-up DVDs are available over here. You might check
> > Amazon UK as well. I'll look for you. Good talking with you. GK
> >> George can I pose a question how do you relate to "Everybody Loves
> >> Raymond"
> >> I am a great fan of US comedians, am totally addicted to Tim Allen ( I
> >> would
> >> kill for his standup routine on DVD) and am glued to ABC1's line up
even
> >> Ellen but "ELR" just leaves me cold it seems just whiny and annoying
I
> >> am
> >> not alone my partner agrees (she's from Michigan so it 's not just a
brit
> >> view) does it seem better over there?
> >> Derek
> >>
> >>
brief on ebay amazon and a couple of other sites I was aware of compilation
stand up tape , missed it on ebay about a month ago I really would like the
"men are pigs " routine which seems to be part basis for some of Home
Improvement at least according to some of the info I have seen.We are going
visiting the outlaws in MI this year so I reckon if I haven't got it by then
there will be some trawling of video shops going on. So far I have the
"Santa Clause" boxed set " Big Trouble" "Joe Somebody" " Galaxy Quest" and
"For Richer or Poorer " is enroute I might have to get "Jungle to Jungle" at
some point but we saw it not long ago so no panic. I have seen quite a few
sitcoms as vehicles for standups I reckon Tim has about the best of it. I
did enjoy the surrealism of our own Peter Cook as the butler in " the Two of
Us" although I cannot believe the US audience quite got his delivery of
the role maybe I'm wrong
Derek
John J. Smith
I enjoyed Married with Children, it never did get a decent timeslot in England and its
got a lot harder to watch with the screeching audience. However, I think it
pushed a hell of a lot of boundaries it never got credit for. The characters
all hated each other (much more than Seinfeld, which got the credit for that).
It was also very very sarcastic, much more than any other US show before or since...
I'd have that over any current running US sitcom...
It was quite a hit in Scotland though, where it got a decent late primetime
timeslot. Scots tended to appreciate the sarcasm...
Smid
Calum Benson
>>>Unfortunately (or more likely, fortunately), the horrendous screeching
>>>audience that accompanied MWC made me switch off about two minutes into
>>>any given episode. (Much the same with Friends, actually, although at
>>>least they didn't have to add two minutes to every show to let the
>>>audience screech in that one.)
> It was quite a hit in Scotland though, where it got a decent late primetime
> timeslot. Scots tended to appreciate the sarcasm...
Well, I'm Scottish, and I lived in Scotland when I had to switch it off
every week! I wouldn't have thought the sarcasm was nearly subtle
enough for Celtic tastes, but maybe it went down well in Edinburgh where
they're all English anyway :)
Covenant
o.uk...
> In article <lL9ae.101967$cg1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
George Kincaid wrote:
> > Man, what did Fox export that garbage? I never was a MWC fan. I thought
that
> > wasn't satire, it was sadism!
> > "Calum Benson" <calum....@nospampleaseimscottish.iol.ie> wrote in
message
> > news:d4af69$ld5$1...@dorito.esatclear.ie...
> >> John J. Smith wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Married with Children did it too. I think probably before Friends or
> >>> Simpsons...
> >>
> >> Unfortunately (or more likely, fortunately), the horrendous screeching
> >> audience that accompanied MWC made me switch off about two minutes into
> >> any given episode. (Much the same with Friends, actually, although at
> >> least they didn't have to add two minutes to every show to let the
> >> audience screech in that one.)
>
> I enjoyed Married with Children, it never did get a decent timeslot in
England and its
> got a lot harder to watch with the screeching audience.
Funnily enough, I just saw an advert for it coming to ITV 2 *Weekdays*.
--
Covenant
A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands
Ian F.
> Well, I'm Scottish, and I lived in Scotland when I had to switch it off
> every week!
I agree. Foul-mannered, hateful, unfunny, lowest-form-of-human-life
'comedy'.
How John J. Smith can compare the characters in MWC to those in Seinfeld is
beyond me - the layered intricacies of the characters of each of the
Seinfeld principals was partly what gave the show its fascination.
Gimme, Gimme, Gimme had much the same effect on me - two ugly, foul-mouthed
people yelling insults at each other for a half-hour does not, to my mind, a
comedy make.
Ian
John J. Smith
> "Calum Benson" <calum....@nospampleaseimscottish.iol.ie> wrote in message
> news:d4ir4e$j18$1...@dorito.esatclear.ie...
>
>> Well, I'm Scottish, and I lived in Scotland when I had to switch it off
>> every week!
>
> I agree. Foul-mannered, hateful, unfunny, lowest-form-of-human-life
> 'comedy'.
>
> How John J. Smith can compare the characters in MWC to those in Seinfeld is
> beyond me - the layered intricacies of the characters of each of the
> Seinfeld principals was partly what gave the show its fascination.
I didn't.
I said that MWC was one of the first shows to have the characters hate each other.
In a period where the defining qualities of the US sitcom was often smaltz
laden "aint love cute", it was at least a change of direction. Yes. It was extreme,
but a breath of fresh air compared to the other crap which was on at the time.
I never once said that the crazy psychosis of George, Jerry, Elaine or Kramer
are in any other way similar. I'm currently enjoying the seventh season of
Seinfeld on Paramount at the moment...
> Gimme, Gimme, Gimme had much the same effect on me - two ugly, foul-mouthed
> people yelling insults at each other for a half-hour does not, to my mind, a
> comedy make.
Well, in MWC, the comments were at least a little more than "you're a poof/you're
fat".
I do however wonder what makes someone hate such sitcoms so bad. I don't like
Gimme Gimme Gimme (and can validly complain that its my TV license which funded
it), but I also thought Frasier was overblown toss, Sex in the City the boring
tribulations of a bloke in a wig, and Ally MacBeal a bad Radionhead album of
a comedy. Yet, I can compare aspects of them with other comedies without having
total bouts of incomprehension...
Argh, I really should drink more caffeine before posting...
Smid
Smid
John Smith on the group... Confuses me...
Smid
BearItAll
> Mmm, not so sure about the male-oriented personally, would be more
> inclined to argue the opposite.
> But yes, much new comedy is a lot darker than anything you would have
> seen, say, 15 years ago.
>
> ...And a pig eating paper for have an hour would be far better than
> Friends. ;)
Friends didn't do too much for me either, but that might be cause I didn't
see any of it till it was nearly over, by then as someone in this post
already said, it just looked too much like a soap. The lines were
obviously watered down or reworded old lines that obviously worked in the
past so the universal comedy rule comes into play 'if it got a genuine
laugh without the prompt, then milk it dry'.
For British comedy I think the comedians have realised that TV is bad for
business, good money but destroys their stage act. The best comedy you'll
see now is live. We get them coming to the social club (old hat? No, they
picking up again with all age groups), ok some turns are awful just as
some of the bands/singers are, but others hit the nerve straight away and
have the place in uproar. Comedy is still out there, but its best to not
try to find it on the TV.