THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG HERE !!!!!!!!!
Barry Bloch
old USA. It's list price is around $250-$275. After one or two weeks, I
had to send it to the manufacture as the nib had shifted and the nib was no
longer centered over the feed. The pen was also not that smooth to write
with, but I didn't mention that when I returned it. A week later, I
received the repaired pen. Problem is, the repaired pen suffers from what
has been diagnosed as feed starvation: it starts to skip after several
minutes of writing. Back it must go to the manufacture.
I heading overseas for a short trip and I decided to order a cheep pen to
take with me. I ordered a Sheaffer Triumph Imperial from Arcamax for $5.98
which includes delivery charges. I received it today and used it all day
long.
QUESTION 1: WHY IS THE $5.98 SHEAFFER A SMOOTHER WRITER THAN THE %$#)^&# PEN
THAT I PAID $198.00 FOR?
QUESTION 2: WHY DOESN'T THE $5.98 SHEAFFER SHIP LIKE THE %$#)^&# PEN THAT I
PAID $198.00 DOES?
THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG HERE !
lal...@juno.com
The difference is, the Sheaffer was meant to be a writing instrument; the
$200+ pen was meant to be pocket art or an accessory. Very few of my more
expensive pens write as well as my inexpensive, new or vintage. The
exceptions are a couple of Waterman's (Carene and Edson), a Parker
Centennial Duofold and a Sheaffer Legacy.
Larry
fdu...@aol.com
said it before anyhow since this subject has been covered many times
here and.. opps, sorry, that's another thread isn't it? LOL Frank
Barry Bloch
marlinspike
THE $5.98 SHEAFFER A SMOOTHER WRITER THAN THE %$#)^&# PEN
> THAT I PAID $198.00 FOR?
Why is a $100 Cold Steel Recon Tanto knife way better than a fantasy knife
10 times the price? One is for using.
Richard
so what
>QUESTION 1: WHY IS THE $5.98 SHEAFFER A SMOOTHER WRITER THAN THE %$#)^&# PEN
>THAT I PAID $198.00 FOR?
Just to aggravate you!! It's a conspiracy! <vbg>
>QUESTION 2: WHY DOESN'T THE $5.98 SHEAFFER SHIP LIKE THE %$#)^&# PEN THAT I
PAID $198.00 DOES?
Cuz of the shipping charges.
<g,d,r>
satrap
who really does agree with BarryB
Barry Bloch
SKIP like the $198 pen?
Second, those who say that the $200 pen was intended to be a work of art and
not a user, I assume also believe that the $75,000 BMW really isn't intended
for driving. WHY PUT A CONVERTER IN A PEN IF ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO HOLD INK
AND WRITE? This is a cop out that allows some pen makers to flood the
market with high priced junk. No wonder you see so many pens advertised on
eBay as never dipped. The owners are obviously afraid to find out what
they've got. Why sell a book about pen repair if the pens aren't supposed
to work anyway?
"Barry Bloch" <barry...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:vd80p1o...@corp.supernews.com...
Fred
or have some hand work in the manufacturing process. We pen people don't
want our pens inked so the semi handmade pens aren't tested. There is no
quality control and, as you know, hand work is less precise than machine
work. The chep pens, on the other hand, are mass produced and a normal
quality control system can be applied to them simply by testing a percentage
of the production.
There are some expensive pens that are pretty reliable, though, from my
experience. Pelikan and Montblanc come to mind as well as the Japanese
brands - Pilot/Namiki, Sailor and Platinum. Obviously, every high end pen
manufacturer makes expensive pens that work well out of the box but the
percentage for most of them is surprisingly low, at least in my opinion.
What you experienced isn't surprising at all.
Fred
Pen Domain
http://www.pendomain.com
"Barry Bloch" <barry...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:vd80p1o...@corp.supernews.com...
Philip J. Kuhl
buyer beware!
ANY product that carries a premium price --be it a $75,000 automobile or a
$250 pen-- is aimed at a luxury market. The high price does not mean that
the product is sufficiently better to justify the high price. Compare that
BMW you cite to a car that costs its quarter, the Mercury Grand Marquis. Is
the BMW a better car than the Mercury? Arguably yes, but is it four times
better? By no rational argument is it so!
Now, a new Sheaffer's Triumph Imperial at $5.98 is an exceptional buy -- the
pen normally sold for several times that price. But it is also a pen that
has not been manufactured in years and I suspect the price you paid
represents a jobber trying to close out his inventory of a discontinued
product even at a loss -- a common merchandising practice.
To paraphrase Mr. Dubiel, a pen is nothing more than a tool to write with.
Beyond a certain relatively low price point, one is paying for image and not
for substance. There is nothing wrong with this as long as one realizes
that one is paying for image, and it matters not if that image is "precious
resin," "Fahrvergnügen," or whatever happens to be the advertising hype of
the day.
You appear to have been "had" in your purchase of the expensive pen; I trust
you did not pay full retail price for that pen, just as you did not for
your Imperial. If you are dissatisfied with the more expensive pen, perhaps
you can bring it back to the seller for a refund. If he will not accept it
back, then consider the experience a good lesson in the advisability of
doing solid research before making your next expensive purchase, and of
choosing one's vendor among those who offer a money-back guarantee.
Best of luck,
Phil Kuhl
Arlington, Virginia
lal...@juno.com
On 27-May-2003, "Barry Bloch" <barry...@charter.net> wrote:
> First the second question was supposed to say Why doesn't the $5.98
> Sheaffer
> SKIP like the $198 pen?
>
> Second, those who say that the $200 pen was intended to be a work of art
> and
> not a user, I assume also believe that the $75,000 BMW really isn't
> intended
> for driving. WHY PUT A CONVERTER IN A PEN IF ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO HOLD INK
> AND WRITE? This is a cop out that allows some pen makers to flood the
> market with high priced junk. No wonder you see so many pens advertised
> on
> eBay as never dipped. The owners are obviously afraid to find out what
> they've got. Why sell a book about pen repair if the pens aren't supposed
> to work anyway?
Sorry, I misunderstood your initial query; I thought it was a serious
inquiry, not an attempt to start an nonsensical argurment. I decline to
play, now that I understand the game.
Tim McNamara
"Barry Bloch" <barry...@charter.net> wrote:
> First the second question was supposed to say Why doesn't the $5.98
> Sheaffer SKIP like the $198 pen?
Because, as someone else wrote, the Sheaffer pen is intended for
writing whereas the expensive pen was intended to be pocket jewelry.
Nobody spends $5.98 on a pen intended to impress- that's what the $200
pens are for.
> Second, those who say that the $200 pen was intended to be a work
> of art and not a user, I assume also believe that the $75,000 BMW
> really isn't intended for driving. WHY PUT A CONVERTER IN A PEN IF
> ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO HOLD INK AND WRITE? This is a cop out that
> allows some pen makers to flood the market with high priced junk.
Barry, trust us. We understand your ire.
What you have run into is something that most of us have been bitching
about for a long time. Perusing the newsgroup archives at Google will
produce a lot of posts on this very topic.
Modern pen makers mostly make crappy pens, but at least they make up
for it with pretense. In modern fountain pens, cost is no guarantee
of functionality. Montblanc, for example, is infamous for its lousy
pens yet they sell for many hundreds of dollars and in pretty high
volume as well. Most modern fountain pens are used for signing typed
letters, not for actually writing more than that. Hardly anyone
actually writes anymore, so the pens are never put to the test.
> No wonder you see so many pens advertised on eBay as never dipped.
> The owners are obviously afraid to find out what they've got.
No, I suspect that most of those pens are either (1) grey market pens
being sold by people trying to make a profit on eBay or (2) pens that
were received as gifts that the person has no intention of using.
> Why sell a book about pen repair if the pens aren't supposed to
> work anyway?
Because often the problem can be solved with a simple adjustment, if
you know how to do it. I'd bet that anyone who reads Frank's book and
does some practicing on cheap pens knows about as much about pen
repair as most of the people working in the repair departments of
modern pen companies.
This is why I write with 40, 50, 60 year old pens every day. I have a
few modern pens that write very well- my Pelikan M400 and my Aurora
Ipsilon Deluxe are both excellent writers.
I'm not excusing the industry. It's reprehensible to sell expensive
pens that don't work. But sell they do and the industry therefore has
little reason to expend the extra money on good quality assurance
procedures. Especially when that $200 fountain pen probably costs
less than $25 to manufacture- these are a small-volume high-profit
item.
You want a pen that works? Get a Parker 51 aerometric filler, or a
restored Triumph-nibbed Sheaffer Snorkel (IMHO the best pen ever
made). Or a restored Eversharp Skyline. Great pens, all readily
available for $50 or less from most vintage pen sources, and they'll
write rings around any expensive modern fountain pen.
KCat
<barry...@charter.net> wrote:
>First the second question was supposed to say Why doesn't the $5.98 Sheaffer
>SKIP like the $198 pen?
>
>Second, those who say that the $200 pen was intended to be a work of art and
>not a user, I assume also believe that the $75,000 BMW really isn't intended
>for driving.
I couldn't agree more. well, I could but I'd probably get flamed. :-)
seriously - the answer others gave is still valid from the
manufacturing POV. It isn't from a logical or ethical POV and in that
case, you are correct. An expensive pen *should* write well. I will
buy that quality control is easier with machined pens. But I won't
buy that this is an *acceptable* reason for the poor quality. There
are still pen companies out there that make *very* pricey pens but
also make them very well and with proper quality control.
None of my pens are worth more than $50 because I've found pens in
this price range to be the most reliable without looking like the
Parker Reflex. :-)
KCat
>doing solid research before making your next expensive purchase, and of
>choosing one's vendor among those who offer a money-back guarantee.
>
and, as some of us do, even though it *shouldn't* be necessary -
figure into the purchase price of a pen the additional $ to have a pen
guru tweak it to make it write the way you wish it to. That is, if
you really like the pen otherwise and don't wish to return it for
refund.
Barry Bloch
the maker's warranty (spelled out in their web-site). Also, Mr. Binder who
knows of the problem and said that in some cases he can't completely
eliminate the problem. A posting from another pen owner who had the same
problem with the same brand pen said that Richard Binder diagnosed the
problem a feed problem and while he helped the problem, he didn't completely
eliminate it.
If the pen comes back unprepared, I'll seek a refund from the retailer.
Lucky guy...and to think I almost added a pen section to one of my stores.
"KCat" <kca...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:4lq9dv8hb6p4saoal...@4ax.com...
so what
>Second, those who say that the $200 pen was intended to be a work of art and
>not a user, I assume also believe that the $75,000 BMW really isn't intended
>for driving.
>Why sell a book about pen repair if the pens aren't supposed
>to work anyway?
Barry! You have had enough girlfriends to know that "pretty" or "expensive"
doesn't always mean "quality".
The BMW, and I am sure the Rolls Royce, have repair manuals, as do most
man-made items. I know we are led to believe in the cliche that "you get what
you pay for", but it doesn't always work that way, unfortunately.
Now, I don't want you to spend good pen money on blood pressure meds, my
friend!
<BG>
satrap
who has noticed repair manuals for the human body as well
so what
>If the pen comes back unprepared, I'll seek a refund from the retailer.
>Lucky guy...and to think I almost added a pen section to one of my stores.
Of course you can still add such a section to your stores, but you will be very
prudent in your selections.
satrap
who hopes Barry adds Amalfi paper as well
KCat
<barry...@charter.net> wrote:
>The problem with sending the pen to a third person to fix is that it voids
>the maker's warranty (spelled out in their web-site).
which is only reasonable.
>knows of the problem and said that in some cases he can't completely
>eliminate the problem. A posting from another pen owner who had the same
>problem with the same brand pen said that Richard Binder diagnosed the
>problem a feed problem and while he helped the problem, he didn't completely
>eliminate it.
bummer... i don't suppose you'd care to share the brand name
backchannel?
>If the pen comes back unprepared, I'll seek a refund from the retailer.
>Lucky guy...and to think I almost added a pen section to one of my stores.
Good luck (not said sarcastically.)
There is only one "expensive" pen in my wish list. I hope it isn't a
cure for such wishes.
k
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
<tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> This is why I write with 40, 50, 60 year old pens every day. I have a
> few modern pens that write very well- my Pelikan M400 and my Aurora
> Ipsilon Deluxe are both excellent writers.
At the low end, I like Stypen and Yafa for fountain pens but Lamy only for
ballpoints. I like Cross ballpoints (never tried their fp, but if I'm
goint to spend that kind of $, I'd rather not have something that bored
me). I lost a Cross Townsend Lapis BP in January and I'm still crying over
it. :(
I can't find my Montblanc Generations rollerball, but I don't miss it.
Frankly, I find that Italian style is what I really like.
Given that I'm not as enamored of most of the pens that people buy (I like
Cross ballpoints for practicality, but never understood Montblanc's
popularity), what brands *of the Italian manufacturers* seem to do well?
You mentioned Aurora.
I'm quite taken with Stipula, Montegrappa, and Aurora. In the budget
category, I'm particularly wild about Monteverde. I don't know if they are
Italian, but they sure *look* like they are.
--
_Deirdre http://deirdre.net
"I'm writing a book. I've got the page numbers done." - Steven Wright
Giovanni Abrate
If you are looking for Italian pens, have you tried mid-price brands like
Cesare Emiliano, FILCAO and Columbus?
They tend to be reliable writers and offer a variety of styles.
Giovanni
"Deirdre Saoirse Moen" <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote in message
news:deirdre-2805...@10.0.1.2...
Jim Holman
To paraphrase Mr. Dubiel, a pen is nothing more than a tool to write
with.
Beyond a certain relatively low price point, one is paying for image
and not
for substance.
I have to disagree here. A $200 pen is not going to be a work of art.
It is not pocket jewelry. Barry is not talking about some kind of
gold-filled, pearl-encrusted thing. He's talking about a pen that
should be aesthetically pleasing to use, as well as reliable.
Yes, a pen is a tool. It is a "writing instrument," and is sold as
such. Some tools are nicer than others, but the niceness does not
entail that the item is merely jewelry. One poster compared a $100
Cold Steel tanto knife to a $1000 fantasy knife. The problem is that
no one with any sense expects to use the fantasy knife as a tool. A
more apt example would be to compare a $100 Cold Steel knife to a $5
pocket knife. If the $5 knife outperformed the Cold Steel tanto, we
would not say that the knife owner had misplaced expectations. We
would conclude that there was something profoundly wrong with the Cold
Steel knife. If you buy an expensive Benchmade knife that happens to
look good, would you be upset if it were dull right out of the box?
Would we just say "oh, that Benchmade is just jewelry. It wasn't made
to cut anything," merely because the knife looks nice?
Many pen lines include both fountain and rollerball models. Both have
a similar appearance, and both could be (incorrectly, in many cases)
be characterized as "pocket jewelry." But if a rollerball pen failed
to function, would we tell the unfortunate owner that he needed to
lower his expectations? That his rollerball was "never meant" to be
used?
Were someone to purchase a $1000 Les Baer custom .45 1911 stainless
steel semi-auto pistol, with the "premium checkered cocobola grips,"
and the thing didn't fire, would we say "well, all pistols just shoot
bullets into targets, so anything more than a Saturday Night Special
is just holster jewelry?"
If you ordered a handmade guitar from a famous luthier, waited ten
years for it, and paid over $10,000 for it, and it didn't play well,
would you say "oh, that guitar is just all about image. It was never
meant to be played"?
If you buy a DVD instead of a video, and the DVD didn't work, would
you say "the DVD is just to impress people. The video has the same
movie."?
In many aspects of life we are willing to pay a premium in order to
have an enhanced experience. There are first-class airline tickets,
but we still expect the plane to fly. There are nicer hotel rooms,
but we still expect that the room will have a bed. Some movie
theaters are nicer than others, but in all of them we expect to
actually see a movie. Some shirts are nicer than others, but you
still expect that the buttons won't fall off the first time you wear
them.
In other words, we are often willing to pay a premium for a certain
quality of experience -- but we still expect, at a minimum, the basic
experience to be there. And that is not a trivial or inappropriate
expectation.
Thus, I find it outrageous to suggest that a moderately-priced
fountain pen was never "meant" to be used. I find it outrageous that
one should simply expect that such a pen would malfunction out of the
box. The remarks about "jewelry," "image," "pretense," and so on I
find equally disturbing, as they imply that Barry's desire to own and
use a nice pen is a trivial matter. Hell, if writing is just all
about reliably puting marks on paper, then I suppose we can all carry
around pieces of charcoal.
jim holman
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> In article <timmcn-6EB9FE....@gemini.visi.com>, Tim McNamara
> <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> > This is why I write with 40, 50, 60 year old pens every day. I have a
> > few modern pens that write very well- my Pelikan M400 and my Aurora
> > Ipsilon Deluxe are both excellent writers.
>
> At the low end, I like Stypen and Yafa for fountain pens but Lamy only for
> ballpoints. I like Cross ballpoints (never tried their fp, but if I'm
> goint to spend that kind of $, I'd rather not have something that bored
> me). I lost a Cross Townsend Lapis BP in January and I'm still crying over
> it. :(
>
> I can't find my Montblanc Generations rollerball, but I don't miss it.
>
> Frankly, I find that Italian style is what I really like.
Whereas I like the kind of sleek minimalist look that Cross does and
Italians don't seem to go in for any longer - they all make this baroque
pens full of frills and friezes and marbled resins and the lot, very
beautiful but not my style at all.
They used to produce the kinds of pens I like. One of the most beautiful
pens I've ever seen was the Aurora Hastil, although having owned one, I
have to admit that it's not terribly comfortable to write with. (It's
broken: I regret not having had it fixed a month ago when I still had
the time to do it before leaving. I certainly intend to have it fixed,
and have the nib changed to a fine one.)
Though the Visconti Van Goghs aren't too bad, to tell the truth. Are
they any good, besides looking gorgeous?
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@despammed.com - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com
Giovanni Abrate
live. Great pen, especially the original finish.
The Van Gogh is a fine pen.
If you like minimalist pens, you should look at Lamy and Rotring and Caran
D'Ache.
Ciao!
Giovanni
"Anna Feruglio Dal Dan" <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:1fvp5vs.1f6h1uq1biu2s0N%ada...@spamcop.net...
john cline ii
"Jim Holman" wrote in part:
> I have to disagree here. A $200 pen is not going to be a work of
art.
> It is not pocket jewelry. Barry is not talking about some kind of
> gold-filled, pearl-encrusted thing.
Gold-filled is a modern thing. Gold filling is the hallmark of cheap.
>He's talking about a pen that
> should be aesthetically pleasing to use, as well as reliable.
...
> Yes, a pen is a tool. It is a "writing instrument," and is sold as
> such. Some tools are nicer than others, but the niceness does not
> entail that the item is merely jewelry.
> Thus, I find it outrageous to suggest that a moderately-priced
> fountain pen was never "meant" to be used. I find it outrageous that
> one should simply expect that such a pen would malfunction out of the
> box. The remarks about "jewelry," "image," "pretense," and so on I
> find equally disturbing, as they imply that Barry's desire to own and
> use a nice pen is a trivial matter. Hell, if writing is just all
> about reliably puting marks on paper, then I suppose we can all carry
> around pieces of charcoal.
a. A $200 fountain pen is 'moderately priced?' Several thoughts come
to mind:
i. I can hardly wait to see Scaupaug's response!
ii. I would love to see you go to, say, Central Park in New York
City, randomly select 50 people, and tell each you believe that a $200
fountain pen is 'moderately priced.' Same situation at, say, The
Bureau for Social Services. Or to the window clerks at McDonald's, or
the local bank.
iii. If a $200 fountain pen is 'moderately priced' when a BIC can
be had for less than 9 cents at back to school sales, then a Ferrari is
also 'modertately priced.'
iiii. I can guarantee that manufacturers who design and market
$200 pens see that market as high end and the luxury market. I doubt
that 0.05 percent of pens sold sell for $200 or more. I doubt that was
true in terms of $200 in 2003 dollars even in pre-World War II days.
b. Please don't misunderstand, I think $200 pens SHOULD write as well
as 20 cent ones. But the reality is, for the most part, they do not.
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. By continuing to buy $200
pens that don't work, and especially if we don't return them, we
encourage the producers to produce (and inevitably sell) even more of
the same.
john cline ii whose most cherished pens include Pelikan 300's, 19 cent
Bics, Pelikan Pelikano's, Parker aerometric 51's from the early 1950's
and Big Red Duofolds from Parker...(and who loads them all {cept the
BIC's} mostly with Aurora ink!
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
Abrate" <try...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Monteverde pens are made in Taiwan.
I had a feeling they were Asian-made. They *look* Italian in style though.
> If you are looking for Italian pens, have you tried mid-price brands like
> Cesare Emiliano, FILCAO and Columbus?
No, but I'm scribbling those down to check them out.
For those who are looking for an article about Italian pens:
http://www.penlovers.com/stylophiles/july02/07ce1.htm
I'm also lusting after the sketch-style pencils.
> They tend to be reliable writers and offer a variety of styles.
Great, thanks for the suggestions!
fdu...@aol.com
> I have to disagree here. A $200 pen is not going to be a work of art.
It is not pocket jewelry. snip>
> Thus, I find it outrageous to suggest that a moderately-priced
> fountain pen was never "meant" to be used. I find it outrageous that
> one should simply expect that such a pen would malfunction out of the
> box.
In the real world of non pen geeks like us many people are amazed and
appalled that anyone would pay even 10 bux for a pen. Most people,
including even pen geeks would not call a $200 pen "moderately priced."
You can of course, according to your income and your opinion, but many
people, myself included do not consider a pen at that level to be in the
moderate range. In fact I think its in the upper range not counting
LEs, fancy overlays and such. Even in vintage 200 is in the upper range
in than really good examples of most pens, even in nice condition, in
their more common versions and/or colors can be had for well under
$200.
At any rate your opinion can be what it is which is fine and you can be
outraged all you like about expensive pens that don't write well, but
your outrange won't change that fact that many do not. Like you I wish
it was different, but it is not. Frank
Jim Mamoulides
> The reason, to a large extent is our own doing. Expensive pens are handmade
> or have some hand work in the manufacturing process. We pen people don't
> want our pens inked so the semi handmade pens aren't tested. There is no
> quality control and, as you know, hand work is less precise than machine
> work. The chep pens, on the other hand, are mass produced and a normal
> quality control system can be applied to them simply by testing a percentage
> of the production.
>
This is one of the things that makes me crazy. Since a fountain pen
can only truly be tested when filled, why would a high dollar pen not
be write tested before it's packed and shipped? I'm very sorry that
this is most likely a rhetorical question.
I have some hope, though. All my Duofold Centennials were obviously
tested (they had quite a bit of dry ink residue in the feed - you can
try this at home by dipping a "mint" pen in a cup of water) and they
all write very nicely and problem free.
This "mint" thing is to me, a nutty idea. I know to some here I'm
speaking sacrilege, but I would rather buy a pen that has been inked
(by me or purchased from a dealer / collector who has written with it)
so I can understand the character of what I am buying because I
actually intend to write with it.
There is a fine pen dealer in my area that I visited recently that had
one of the new Parker 51 Special Edition pens in the display case. I
asked to have a look at it, and after unscrewing the barrel I noticed
that the converter clearly had been used. The sales rep was actually
pulling an ink bottle and test pad out from under the counter in case
I wanted to test write the pen. Unfortunately, this is some kind of
otherworldly experience in many pen stores, and as Fred points out, it
seems that it's because either collectors insist on "mint" pens, or
pen stores aren't willing to dispel this entire "mint" myth and
actually sell pens as writing instruments.
To continue the pen store story, I asked about test writing pens, and
the answer I got was along the lines of, "How else are you going to
know if you like it?"
Guess what the only issue the store had with testing their pens? You
scratch it or break it, you buy it.
Cheers,
Jim Mamoulides
http://www.PenHero.com
Scaupaug
>a. A $200 fountain pen is 'moderately priced?' Several thoughts come
>to mind:
>
> i. I can hardly wait to see Scaupaug's response!
OK, I'll bite...
They know damn well that amount of money is worth EIGHT nice self filling
visuated and textured section solid gold nibbed pens with heavy gold filled
trim in a variety of colors. To pay that sum and get a bum modern pen that
does not have equivalent intrinsic value? I would be angry too. I wonder what
they charged for postage! I bet it was more than $0.
You can buy a pen that does not work and might cost say $1,000 even - but it
better be a pen that is worth it (EX.: a retractable Caw safety stylo with
solid gold trim and rare hand engraved aluminum centers mint in box with papers
from the 1890s but with a clogged or missing tube...or a couple Aiken Lambert
#3s in snail pattern but with missing nibs, etc...etc....).
You can practically get a line and dot sterling night and day full overlay
red/black ripple ebonite waterman's with flex 14K nib for that price (remanf.).
Did it look that nice? Try to get all sterling filigree's in 26 gauge or more
thickness from a modern manufacturer for less than $900 (hint, you can't). You
pay for advertising costs. Anyone ever wonder what the ad budget is behind a
$500 MSRP on a MB 149? The nib has less than $6 gold content you know....but I
guess the steak is not worth so much if the marketing/aura/sizzle sounds as
nice as a handfull of hollow c-notes. As Frank says often enough, they make
some wonderful $200 boxes nowadays.
Giovanni Abrate
http://www.penlovers.com/stylophiles/may02/05flc.htm
and
http://www.penlovers.com/stylophiles/apr03/04fil.htm
Giovanni
www.tryphon.it/pens
"Deirdre Saoirse Moen" <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote in message
news:deirdre-2805...@10.0.1.2...
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
> Deirdre Saoirse Moen <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote:
> > Frankly, I find that Italian style is what I really like.
>
> Whereas I like the kind of sleek minimalist look that Cross does and
> Italians don't seem to go in for any longer - they all make this baroque
> pens full of frills and friezes and marbled resins and the lot, very
> beautiful but not my style at all.
See, around the US, Cross pens mostly say to me "sales rep." It's *who*
buys them that make them seem boring.
I'll admit I *love* marbeled resins.
> They used to produce the kinds of pens I like. One of the most beautiful
> pens I've ever seen was the Aurora Hastil, although having owned one, I
> have to admit that it's not terribly comfortable to write with. (It's
> broken: I regret not having had it fixed a month ago when I still had
> the time to do it before leaving. I certainly intend to have it fixed,
> and have the nib changed to a fine one.)
Yes, I'm sure they'll fix it, but you're going to be in the US soon so you
won't have time. Are you excited yet?
> Though the Visconti Van Goghs aren't too bad, to tell the truth. Are
> they any good, besides looking gorgeous?
I don't know. I haven't had much $ to spend on some of the pens I'd like to try.
Tim McNamara
hol...@uswest.net (Jim Holman) wrote:
> Thus, I find it outrageous to suggest that a moderately-priced
> fountain pen was never "meant" to be used. I find it outrageous
> that one should simply expect that such a pen would malfunction out
> of the box. The remarks about "jewelry," "image," "pretense," and
> so on I find equally disturbing, as they imply that Barry's desire
> to own and use a nice pen is a trivial matter.
I think you have missed the point of the posts. No one is defending
the manufacturers- we are indeed castigating them.
You and I and most of the people reading this newsgroup have a
different set of expectations than most pen buyers. We intend to
*use* the pen to write with. I sometimes write 30 pages a day by
hand- for me a fountain pen is a practical tool. Frankly, we're
weird. Many people put the FP in their pocket for show but write with
a $1.98 rollerball.
Pen manufacturers know that few people will actually write with the
pens that are sold- in fact, they bank on it. Most are sold as gifts
and end up staying in the box; if they are used to any extent, it is
to sign typed letters or maybe write down an address. As a result,
some pen makers don't bother with much quality control, testing of the
pens, etc. They're focused on one thing: making pretty pens that
sell, not good pens that write.
Is this appropriate? No. Is it defensible? Not in my opinion? Will
it continue as long as they keep selling? You betcha. Welcome to
capitalism. The ONLY thing that will change how modern pens are made
will be if they stop selling because they don't work properly. And
I'd be willing to bet that if the pens stopped selling, the pen
industry would just stop making them (with one or two exceptions).
Tim McNamara
jma...@mindspring.com (Jim Mamoulides) wrote:
> This "mint" thing is to me, a nutty idea.
Amen to that!
john cline ii
"Tim McNamara"wrote:
> In article (Jim Mamoulides) wrote:
>
> > This "mint" thing is to me, a nutty idea.
>
> Amen to that!
They are not bad on a pillow in a hotel after a long day in the field.
Otherwise, I agree!
BRAVO!
john cline ii who says he prefers wintergreen to mint anywho!
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> The Hastil is a true classic. Aurora will repair it, regardless of where you
> live.
I know, but I'm leaving for the States in three weeks and I don't think
they can make it that quick. I should have have it sent to Turin when I
first brought it to a local pen shop to see what could be done, but
first, I didn't think much of that shop and preferred to take my
business elsewhere (when I asked them if I could have it repaired and
have the nib changed, they told me "Yeah, but it'll cost a bundle, it's
not worth it" - it was about 80 euros), and second, I was planning to go
to Turin Book Fair anyway and figured I could drop it in myself. In the
even, I forgot to take it along.
Besides, I am in two minds about changing the nib; but I definitely
dislike medium nibs, and would end up not using it at all.
> Great pen, especially the original finish.
Well, mine is gold and red laquer. I wonder where I got the money to buy
it at the time, I wasn't even eighteen. We had another, the steel one,
at home - I wonder where that ended up.
> The Van Gogh is a fine pen.
> If you like minimalist pens, you should look at Lamy and Rotring and Caran
> D'Ache.
I have. Caran D'Ache makes particularly attractive pens.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Yes, I'm sure they'll fix it, but you're going to be in the US soon so you
> won't have time. Are you excited yet?
Freaked out. That's why I'm compulsively looking at pens online.
Displacement activity. :-)
I found out that buying a new pen does wonders for writer's bloc, and
also that pens are much cheaper in the States right now, so I'm trying
to resist.
Deirdre Saoirse Moen
ada...@spamcop.net (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
> Deirdre Saoirse Moen <dei...@deirdre.net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I'm sure they'll fix it, but you're going to be in the US soon so you
> > won't have time. Are you excited yet?
>
> Freaked out. That's why I'm compulsively looking at pens online.
> Displacement activity. :-)
Yes, I do understand. :)
> I found out that buying a new pen does wonders for writer's bloc, and
> also that pens are much cheaper in the States right now, so I'm trying
> to resist.
Yes, I agree. I find that special new pen gives me more of an urge to
write. I need to get some good pen storage (at budget prices) too.
so what
>a. A $200 fountain pen is 'moderately priced?' Several thoughts come
>to mind:
Well, when I read this statement, I figured Barry meant "compared to LEs" or
something like that. I guess that "moderately priced" might really mean, "what
*I* can afford without blinking".
That McD clerk or manager thinks McD's is moderately priced, but then, I bet
the employees at Fuddrucker's, Hamburger Hamlet, Ruth Chris's, and so on, think
their foods are moderately priced. ANYTHING that you buy, SHOULD work.
> iiii. I can guarantee that manufacturers who design and market
>$200 pens see that market as high end and the luxury market.
You think so? I'm not so sure about that. Now (whimper) I missed the Chicago
show, and the unveiling of some new grand poobah pen (and I am not complaining
about poobahsity), a $16,000.00 something, right? I think the manufacturers
see as the luxury market, those pens which are priced in the thousands of
dollars. There was an article on an author who lives in NYC, and uses a
$6,000.00...hmmm...Namiki Emperor? HA!! Michel Perchin pens are NOT priced for
the sweet little schoolmarm (moi)!
>(and who loads them all {cept the
>BIC's} mostly with Aurora ink!
>
>
john cline ii!!!!!!!
satrap
who thinks jcii needs to be attacked by the 64-count box of Crayola Crayons
KCat
Saoirse Moen) wrote:
>In article <BtbBa.282$xM5.4...@news2.news.adelphia.net>, "Giovanni
>Abrate" <try...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>> Monteverde pens are made in Taiwan.
>
>I had a feeling they were Asian-made. They *look* Italian in style though.
>
>> If you are looking for Italian pens, have you tried mid-price brands like
>> Cesare Emiliano, FILCAO and Columbus?
>
>No, but I'm scribbling those down to check them out.
Please let us know what you think...
I found out about the CEs just yesterday and they have some very
classy-looking "budget" pens (50-70 USD range.) I like the looks of
some of the FILCAO pens and have heard good things about them.
they're a little too "showy" for my tastes but I imagine I'll have one
eventually.
The CEs are getting excellent press on Pentrace. So my wish list grew
by one pen yesterday. sigh..
so what
>I found out that buying a new pen does wonders for writer's bloc, and
>also that pens are much cheaper in the States right now, so I'm trying
>to resist.
>
Resistance is futile!! SHOP TILL YOU DROP!!!
satrap
Juan
I absolutely agree with you. I buy most of my pens from 3 specialized
shops here in Spain, but sometimes I have bought from big department
stores with personnel who don't know a thing about fpens. I had to
convince that the pen I bought the previous day was defective!!. That
guy couldn't understand that a 120 Euros pen didn't work.
In the specialized shops they know their job and it's not a surprise
that they have to return 4 out of 10 pens they sell.
The people who want to buy a pen as a present go to department stores
because they saw an ad of MB in a magazine. The owner of that pen will
probably never use that pen regularly so as to know whether the pen is
defective or not.
Juan
Juan
> >
> >Second, those who say that the $200 pen was intended to be a work of art and
> >not a user, I assume also believe that the $75,000 BMW really isn't intended
> >for driving.
>
> >Why sell a book about pen repair if the pens aren't supposed
> >to work anyway?
>
>
> Barry! You have had enough girlfriends to know that "pretty" or "expensive"
> doesn't always mean "quality".
>
> The BMW, and I am sure the Rolls Royce, have repair manuals, as do most
> man-made items.
Repair manuals... ha! Right now I have this cheap (1'5
euros)rollerball in my hand, and I'm told that the ink is waterproof
and fadeproof (some even have an sticker reminding u not to leave the
pen uncapped); what info do i get from the manufacturer of a 300 E
pen?: A- I can only use the manufacturer ink, and B- the pen may leak
on a plane. Period. That's all I need to know.
My microwave oven has 2 controls, looks like foolproof huh? No way; it
came with a handbook the size of the enciclopaedia britannica, whereas
I still don't know what the ***** does the "Impr Pant" key do in my
keyboard.
Juan
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
Yeah, all right. A small Aurora Style in a very nice bronze-chrome color
I haven't seen on line. 55 euros, and so barely inside the "tools"
boundary, right? And not too much more expensive than I would have found
it in the States.
While the Sheaffer Intrigue was 200 euros, instead of the 105 $ at Joon.
<add typically Italian rude gesture>
Peter Brooks
pen - paid extra for the gold nib instead of the steel nib and had all
kinds of problems with it (skipping, drying out after a page etc.)
Finally sent it to Mottishaw for a complete overhaul since I like the
pen and want to use it.
--Peter Brooks
T.
I have to disagree with most of regarding modern pens. I own many
modern pens that are great for daily writing. I am very happy with my
Dupont Orpheos, Montegrappa, Bexley Deluxe, Aurora Optimas, Duofold,
Pelikans and Omas pens. I use them all the time. I enjoy them and
have had very little trouble. I have not had any problems with nib
exchanges and when service was required got quick prompt service and
often a no charge. My Parker Vac seems rather fragile compared to my
Duponts or even a Montblanc. I will admit that I have had to send
pens for adjustments but have also had vintage pens that stop filling
within a month of overhaul from respected repair people. Bottom line
is fountain pens are delicate instruments. I do admit I have heard
horror stories of some modern pens and I did once require a refund for
a pen (Italian made) that just did not work correctly. If you buy
your modern pen from a reputable seller and not from some scoundrel on
Ebay you should be happy with your purchase and get the correct
service. I have never been left unsatisfied with a pen I bought from
Swisher, Bertram's Inkwell or Fountain Pen Hospital. If you spend
$250 on Ebay and buy a pen from "some guy" you may be hung out to dry.
My $0.02
Scaupaug
>pens for adjustments but have also had vintage pens that stop filling
>within a month of overhaul
Yet if that was due to the melting sacs from up north it was not the pen's
fault. There are pens that lasted 15 years between each service/resac without
the need for adjustments excluding that nasty group of sacs (which lasted for 2
years? 2000 to 2002?). It was bad to have sacs turn into goo, a nightmare -
but it was the sac that was defective and NOT the pens that had already proven
themselves over the past 50 to 80 years. Once the sac problem was solved (and
provided everybody gets rid of the bad sacs) the sac filling pens will adjust
back to their prior performance levels.
Dave
jjtele...@yahoo.es (Juan) wrote:
> I still don't know what the ***** does the "Impr Pant" key do in my
> keyboard.
It's short for "Improve Pants". People who spend long periods of time
at a computer often end up wearing inappropriate clothing, and this key
was added as a partial remedy. It will take your pants off and replace
them with better ones.
Happy to be of assistance :-)
David
R
R
"Dave" <dave...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:CXSCa.4958$QF2.1...@news2.telusplanet.net...
so what
>at a computer often end up wearing inappropriate clothing,
who wears clothes at home?
anonymous
Dave
> >at a computer often end up wearing inappropriate clothing,
>
> who wears clothes at home?
Who said anything about home? A computer pulling your pants off at home
is a useless feature. The best use is in a workplace when your
colleague's pants are in need of a makeover, and you're not wearing any
yourself.
Nymous
so what
>colleague's pants are in need of a makeover, and you're not wearing any
I sit corrected!
john cline ii
Keith
6EB9FE.083...@gemini.visi.com:
> You want a pen that works? Get a Parker 51 aerometric filler, or a
> restored Triumph-nibbed Sheaffer Snorkel (IMHO the best pen ever
> made). Or a restored Eversharp Skyline. Great pens, all readily
> available for $50 or less from most vintage pen sources, and they'll
> write rings around any expensive modern fountain pen.
>
I have an utterly reliable modern fountain pen that I use constantly every
day, the Waterman Phileas.
--
Keith
ane...@aol.com
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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leefy
who has been hanging around satrap far too long!
>
so what
>They are not bad on a pillow in a hotel after a long day in the field.
>
>>john cline ii who says he prefers wintergreen to mint anywho!
>who has been hanging around satrap far too long!
I was not in that hotel room~!
<G>!
Patrick Lamb
Satrap! Go sit in your corner and write, "Aurora Blue-Black is my
favorite ink color," 100 times. With your choice of blue or black
ink...
Pat
Ko van den Boom
steel nib and cheap light plastic body. It dries out quickly.
What I like is my Waterman Carčne, coral, a lust for the eye, with a real
smooth writing 18 K gold nib. One little thing: it dries out rather quickly,
due to the cap whih doesn't seal hermetically. Perfection is a bore.
Ko
"Keith" <ane...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:Xns938F45418F3E8a...@129.250.168.20...
Juan
Hey, that's meannie!! :-)
satrap, do you ever use black or blue ink?. Cmon, we r among
friends... I've wondering, and your personal notes must look like
Carlos santana's T shirt. LOL
BTW, i resent the mail... did u get it this time?
Juan
so what
>friends...
<shudder> not if I can help it. which upsets the school psychologist and
social worker! usually, when they insist on one of those john cline ii colours,
I use deep purple or deep turquoise. hahaha.
>> I've wondering, and your personal notes must look like Carlos santana's T
shirt. LOL
>
with all the ink stains on my own T-shirt (ok, hubby's T-shirt) Carlos might be
looking sorta normal.
Carlos Santana. That dude is still too cool!
No funk mail has come through yet!
satrap
you got to change yo evil ways. tomorrow.
so what
>Satrap! Go sit in your corner and write, "Aurora Blue-Black is my
>favorite ink color," 100 times. With your choice of blue or black
john cline ii loves orange ink.
john cline ii loves orange ink.
john cline ii loves orange ink.
Huh? isn't that what you said to do??
john cline ii
"so what" wrote:
So you mean that woman was the...was the....she was the maid?
GASP!
john cline ii who saw her ruby slippers and thought why not on a ruby
yacht?
john cline ii
"so what" wrote:
Sigh. May as well be me! Seems I am often in need of what the
Invisible Fence people call a "slight correction."
Yeah, right.
john cline ii who never met a bottle of Aurora Black he didn't like
john cline ii
"so what" <chgos...@aol.comorange> wrote in message
news:20030603202212...@mb-m13.aol.com...
john cline ii loves orange ink as long as it is made by Aurora
john cline ii loves orange ink as long as it is made by Aurora
john cline ii loves orange pens made by BIC
satrap is looking for a nice black ink to let her inhibitions out!
or something
satrap
a ruby yacht?
I think not!
so what
>So you mean that woman was the...was the....she was the maid?
>
no, mr. clineton, she was there to deliver your black ink!
K. Starr
Juan
wait, there's some more. In my workplace computer the key is "Impr
Pant PetSis"!!
Is it improved pants for my sister's pet?? Please, help, I'm scared of
hitting that key and get home wearing diapers for poodles.
Juan
Ken Nestle
<pjk...@erols.com> wrote:
> To paraphrase Mr. Dubiel, a pen is nothing more than a tool to write with.
> Beyond a certain relatively low price point, one is paying for image and not
> for substance. There is nothing wrong with this as long as one realizes
> that one is paying for image, and it matters not if that image is "precious
> resin," "Fahrvergnügen," or whatever happens to be the advertising hype of
> the day.
>
The Watermna Phileas BP @ $30 and Waterman Edson BP @ $475 use the same
refill, #83425-W2 @ $4.95. Beyond the refill, it's all jewelry.
Have fun
Ken