Still precious but now stronger resin
whelply
quite honestly, that I admire the appearance of many MB pens, but had
misgivings about the durability of their "precious resin." The very
courteous response from MB indicated that "Approximately 5 years ago,
Montblanc reinforced this material to make our writing instruments more
durable, because before that, they were susceptible to cracking easily, and
stress fractures from everyday use."
This is the first I have heard of reinforced precious resin. Anyone else
hear of this? Any owners of late-model MB pens that have noticed that they
seem less prone to cracking and shattering when inadvertently dropped?
HW
fdu...@aol.com
years ago in a Pen World article. I suppose they will say the same
thing five years from now. Its a line they seem to use every five
years. I am not aware of any actual changes, although I suppose sooner
or later its possible. Certainally if any major change took place as
long as five years ago we should have heard and seen the results by
now. It is very interesting to see them even admit the cracks often
result from (normal) everyday use. Nevertheless probably 90% of all MB
ballpens I've seen on the used market are cracked. Probably 30% of the
unsold ones are cracked too if store demos that have been handled to any
extent as well. Including those that appear to be far less than five
years old. So I'd take the info with a huge ammount of salt, but again
I'm not saying its impossible. Just somewhat unlikely. Frank
Burt Janz
> [snip]
> Montblanc reinforced this material to make our writing instruments more
> durable, because before that, they were susceptible to cracking easily, and
> stress fractures from everyday use."
Nothing short of a rebar would help this material... :-D
\burt
--
Burt Janz 603-880-0482 voice
bj...@bit-net.com (preferred) or bj...@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~bjanz
"There is no such thing as bad weather - only inappropriate clothing."
Tetractys
> Nothing short of a rebar would help this material...
My guess would be (fiber)glass or mineral
reinforcement, or an increased percentage
of same in their purchased resin mix.
DovR
according to Frank a pen of this sort costs btween $5 and $20 to
manufacture?
"Tetractys" <tetr...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:o7Lh8.370$Nd.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
fdu...@aol.com
>
> How does all this explain the very high mark ups - close to 1000% if
> according to Frank a pen of this sort costs btween $5 and $20 to
> manufacture?
>
actual cost of production. Thats necessary for advertising, boxes,
shipments, labor, taxes, and wholesalers and distributors profit. etc.
Many products are marked up far more. There is no way the MB rollerball
costs a dollar to make. I expect its about 20cents. But thats
materials cost only. Like a Bic costs far less than a penny to make.
but the machinery that makes it can literally cost a million dollars.
So MB may seem greedy in terms of mark up and they are, but not so
terribly out of line with other high end goods. A $22,000 Rolex costs
aprox $225 to make, according to Rolex themselves. Just applying a
common sense wild guess to that they sell it to Rolex Swiss distributors
for 900. To the N American outfit for 2000. To the local wholsalers
for 4500, to the retails for 8500. I'm sure these figuers are off
somewhat and don't include shipment, taxes, etc, but it does give a
rough idea how such things move up in price through market channels.
Frank
fdu...@aol.com
with box, labor, machinery costs and packing to make. So they sell it
to the MB sales comapny or whatever its called (many though not all
companies run a serarate sales company for accounting and tax purposes
thats apart from the manufacturing company) for two bucks. Then to the
European wholesale company for $5. To the N American division for $10.
To local wholsalers for $20 to retails for $40. Again just some wild
guess on these totals, but I'm sure they are somewhere in the old ball
park. There are lots of hands in the cookie jar of most retail sales.
Frank
Eric Diamond
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote:
Actually they HAVE improved the build of their pens. The LeGrand line now
has brass threads on both male and female threads, and the Classique pens
and pencils have a reinforcing sleeve inside the barrels that the older
(pre-1996 models) did not have. I have found them to be very durable. And
while my solitaires are treated with a lot of care, my document marker has
been subjected to what can only be called abuse and is surviving just fine.
It has endured many drops onto hard floors, and even once to the sidewalk
been tossed around in a briefcase and only had to be repaired when I
destroyed the clip catching it on a seatbelt in a taxicab and bending the
hell out of it when I exited the cab. I find Montblanc products of recent
manufacture to be exceptionally well made in comparison to any other modern
manufacture, with the possible exception of Pelikan.
--
Eric Diamond, 32°
Oriental Lodge No.33
A.F. & A.M.
Chicago, Illinois USA
fdu...@aol.com
>
> Actually they HAVE improved the build of their pens. The LeGrand line now
> has brass threads on both male and female threads, and the Classique pens
> and pencils have a reinforcing sleeve inside the barrels that the older
> (pre-1996 models) did not have. I have found them to be very durable. And
> while my solitaires are treated with a lot of care, my document marker has
> been subjected to what can only be called abuse and is surviving just fine.
> It has endured many drops onto hard floors, and even once to the sidewalk
> been tossed around in a briefcase and only had to be repaired when I
> destroyed the clip catching it on a seatbelt in a taxicab and bending the
> hell out of it when I exited the cab. I find Montblanc products of recent
> manufacture to be exceptionally well made in comparison to any other modern
> manufacture, with the possible exception of Pelikan.
As I said its possible, but Eric, you are the first human being I've
come across who has said so other than some PR people from MB. Until I
hear far more reports I remain unconvinced, esp as regards to their
standard rollerball and ballpoints and 144, 146 and 149s. As I also
said if there was any major difference we should have heard far more by
now. The biggest problems by far has always been the common "low" (??)
end plastic MBs priced from $130 to 450 or so retail. So again, its
possible, but... I've personally had at least a 25 MBs in the last
five years and ALL but one has been cracked and at least 10 were new in
their original box with all stickers, etc. Yes, some were over 5 years
old, but I doubt all were. Frank
Eric Diamond
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> As I said its possible, but Eric, you are the first human being I've
> come across who has said so other than some PR people from MB.
Well I think there is a large prejudice by certain respected members of the
pen community and there are many who are afraid to speak for fear of
starting a flame war. I have 2 in my inbox right now in response to what I
wrote yesterday.
Until I
> hear far more reports I remain unconvinced, esp as regards to their
> standard rollerball and ballpoints and 144, 146 and 149s.
I cannot vouch for 146's 147s and 149s since I don't have any. I mostly love
MB's ball points and pencils. I have a document marker (a rather silly pen
but I do love it), a LeGrand roller ball, a Solitaire 164SP and 165SP, a
resin 164 and 165 and a Chopin FP. I am not crazy about MB's fountain pens,
but it is due mainly to the nib geometry which isn't terribly compatible
with my handwriting. I prefer Pelikan's nibs. All the MB products were
purchased in the last 5 or 6 years. The 164 barrel did crack once but
because I had it in a pants pocket, the pants were on the carpeted bedroom
floor and I stepped on it. At the time I weighed around 400 lbs. Crack. MB
replaced almost the entire pen in the boutique on the spot for $25,
including a new barrel, mechanism and cap. The new parts were clearly
reinforced and different than the old parts. In fact the reason they gave me
a new mechanism was that it was more compatible with the new barrel style.
The barrel was also slightly heavier. If I can get a lighting tripod for my
digital camera setup I will try to post some pix of what I am talking about
on my site.
I don't buy into the whole MB branding thing. I think they are a bit
overpriced (OK, way overpriced for some models). I like the geometry and
size of the pens and the clips. I can pretty much own any pen I want (and
do, much to the detriment of my bank account), but the MB I carry pretty
much on a daily basis.
> said if there was any major difference we should have heard far more by
> now. The biggest problems by far has always been the common "low" (??)
> end plastic MBs priced from $130 to 450 or so retail.
More likely the 144 and Classique roller ball, two of the crappyiest pens MB
ever made. The Chopin is what the 144 should have been and I don't
understand why they don't take the 144 out back and put it out of its
misery.
> So again, its
> possible, but... I've personally had at least a 25 MBs in the last
> five years and ALL but one has been cracked and at least 10 were new in
> their original box with all stickers, etc. Yes, some were over 5 years
> old, but I doubt all were. Frank
Of course YMMV. I've had about 8 or 9 Parker 51's and all were terrible
writers except the one I bought from you in 1998 at the Chicago Pen Show
(which is still the best dang FP I've ever used). It is heartbreaking too,
as I would love to have an aerometric 51 that writes like my 51 vac. Oh,
well. Pens are very personal instruments, and each one performs differently
in different hands.
fdu...@aol.com
>
> I cannot vouch for 146's .. and 149s since I don't have any. >>
I think its fair to say these are by far the most popular MBs and are in
fact sometimes the only MB carried by 1000s of stores such as many
Staples, OMax, many catalogue and membership type stores (BJs. etc)
etc. Let's avoid wheater these are "authorized" sales agencies, no
matter--they do sell the pens and the pens ARE what MB is most known
for. In fact most people in the recent "flagship" thread said the 149
was the MB flagship. So, Eric, IMHO most of what you say doens't mean
much if you aren't talking about the standard well known MBs. Its the
standard ballpoint in plastic that CANNOT be used without it cracking
due to its own internal stress from its own twisting design. I have
NEVER sen a used MB ballpoint in my life without cracks, assuming the
pen has been used more than a few years on a regular basis. Its
physically impossible to use the ballpoint without it eventually
cracking.
<<Well I think there is a large prejudice by certain respected members
of the pen community and there are many who are afraid to speak for fear
ofstarting a flame war. I have 2 in my inbox right now in response to
whatIwrote yesterday.>>
Ther is NO prejudice on earth against MB I have ever detected. Simply
reporting what those of us see day in and day out that examine 1000s of
pens a month is exactly that. Your own experience is limited to a few
MB most of which styles are not top MB sellers. I see literally 1000
or more MBs on an avereage month, even if I don't buy them. The flame
wars start when someone reports simple facts they see and others deny
those facts with what in almost all cases is little or no real
experience with the pens in question. When someone reports facts based
on simple knowledgable observations based on 1000s of such observations
on a regular basis thats not prejudice. Frank
Jiffy
> Eric Diamond wrote:
<snip>
> Its the
> standard ballpoint in plastic that CANNOT be used without it cracking
> due to its own internal stress from its own twisting design. I have
> NEVER sen a used MB ballpoint in my life without cracks, assuming the
> pen has been used more than a few years on a regular basis. Its
> physically impossible to use the ballpoint without it eventually
> cracking.
Thanks for that. I've got a s/h 149 which I paid £60 for and the barrel is
fine. At the base of the cap I can see what appears to be 2 miniscule
hairline cracks running from the base of the cap upto the band. All in all,
pretty good I think. I had been thinking about a ballpoint to accompany it
but not now! What you say makes good sense. More pressure is needed to write
with a ballpoint and thus more stress is put on the pen hence more cracks.
Cheers, Jiffy
Eric Diamond
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote:
> Eric Diamond wrote:
>
>>
>> I cannot vouch for 146's .. and 149s since I don't have any. >>
>
> I think its fair to say these are by far the most popular MBs and are in
> fact sometimes the only MB carried by 1000s of stores such as many
> Staples, OMax, many catalogue and membership type stores (BJs. etc)
> etc.
Well, I have no scientific data, but based on what I see in the business
world, I think the best seller is the MB 164 BP, followed by the classique
(sorry forgot the number) rollerball.
> Its the
> standard ballpoint in plastic that CANNOT be used without it cracking
> due to its own internal stress from its own twisting design. I have
> NEVER sen a used MB ballpoint in my life without cracks, assuming the
> pen has been used more than a few years on a regular basis. Its
> physically impossible to use the ballpoint without it eventually
> cracking.
I will show you mine when I visit you at the Chicago Show (assuming you will
be there of course). You will see it has not been babied nor is it cracked.
It was last repaired 3 years ago, after the stepping on it incident.
Eventually? I think with time all plastic ballpoints will eventually degrade
and crack. Plastic is after all an organic compound and subject to
deterioration like anything else. However though I have heard the stories I
just haven't seen it. I have had Pelikans crack, Omases dissolve and warp,
parkers snap (a Duofold). In fact the only two bulletproof plastic pens have
been my 51 and my MB document marker. I did have a MB 164 about 10 years ago
that was terrible. The gold plating wore off quickly, and the plastic
cracked near the tip. It was stolen before I could get it repaired. However
all the MB pens I have purchased in the past 6 years have been good solid
performers, and the build quality seems to get better with each year. The
improvements are small and incremental, but they're there and unmistakable.
> Ther is NO prejudice on earth against MB I have ever detected.
Hmmm. I respectfully disagree.
> Simply
> reporting what those of us see day in and day out that examine 1000s of
> pens a month is exactly that. Your own experience is limited to a few
> MB most of which styles are not top MB sellers.
True, but I can only comment on what I see and my experience. I don't deny
yours, but my mileage has been different. Most of the Montblancs I see are
treated as pens, not as collectibles (LE's excepted), so often they are
subjected to harsher treatment than a Duofold.
> I see literally 1000
> or more MBs on an avereage month, even if I don't buy them. The flame
> wars start when someone reports simple facts they see and others deny
> those facts with what in almost all cases is little or no real
> experience with the pens in question. When someone reports facts based
> on simple knowledgable observations based on 1000s of such observations
> on a regular basis thats not prejudice. Frank
I am certainly not accusing you of prejudice, Frank. You have a valid
experience, and I have been around here long enough to respect your opinion.
I refer to people who do not have your level of experience and I get mail
from them all the time. I guess my view in a nutshell is this: MB is no
better or worse than most of the modern pen companies, and I think heir
customer service is decent, better if you go into the boutiques. For a
really good experience I can recommend the Chicago boutique. I cannot
remember his name but the manager of that place is everything a pen dealer
should be. Knowledgeable, patient and familiar with brands other than the
one he sells. I have no doubt that MB had some years where their products
sucked as did their service but I think they have made huge improvements in
both over the past few years and I think they should be recognized for it.
Other companies have slipped. Remember the Parker Platinum card for owners
of Duofolds? What happened to them? Omas customer service? Did they take a
trip to the Bermuda Triangle? Stipula? Blechh. Nice pens lousy support. Yet
I don't see a tenth of the complaints that I do about MB. Yeah, their
marketing may be a bit over the top and they are victims of their own
success (they are by no means the best pen) and I don't care for their
prohibition on internet sales, but I do not think they deserve the kind of
scorn they receive on the Internet.
Eric Diamond
"Jiffy" <thisaddres...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for that. I've got a s/h 149 which I paid £60 for and the barrel is
> fine. At the base of the cap I can see what appears to be 2 miniscule
> hairline cracks running from the base of the cap upto the band. All in all,
> pretty good I think. I had been thinking about a ballpoint to accompany it
> but not now! What you say makes good sense. More pressure is needed to write
> with a ballpoint and thus more stress is put on the pen hence more cracks.
>
> Cheers, Jiffy
Do you post the cap when you write? That is probably the culprit. The
plastic around he cap lip is not too thick. The ballpoint sleeve thickness
is about 2.42mm (I checked with a digital caliper) and in the LeGrand
ballpoint the threads are reinforced with a brass collar. I don't think you
would have anything to worry about. Just out of curiosity, how old is your
149? Send it back to MB and they may give you a new cap.
fdu...@aol.com
> Well, I have no scientific data, but based on what I see in the business
> world, I think the best seller is the MB 164 BP, followed by the classique
> (sorry forgot the number) rollerball.
>
> > Its the
> > standard ballpoint in plastic that CANNOT be used without it cracking
> > due to its own internal stress from its own twisting design. I have
> > NEVER sen a used MB ballpoint in my life without cracks, assuming the
> > pen has been used more than a few years on a regular basis. Its
> > physically impossible to use the ballpoint without it eventually
> > cracking.
>
> I will show you mine when I visit you at the Chicago Show (assuming you will
> be there of course). You will see it has not been babied nor is it cracked.
> It was last repaired 3 years ago, after the stepping on it incident.
> Eventually? I think with time all plastic ballpoints will eventually degrade
> and crack.
Why can't you realize your pen has had probably rather little normal
daily use since its one of many pens you perhaps use on a regular
basis? I am talking about using ONE pen daily and ONLY that ONE pen for
years. If you use even 5 pens on a regular basis each one gets only
1/5th of "regular" use. Few if any ballpoint will crack under normal
use over many decades. Yes, eventually something may wear out, perhaps
taking 10-20-30 years, but the MB ballpoint is unique it that it MUST
crack from its own twisting action within 1-3 years of daily use. Thats
a simple stress crack set up by its own twisting cap that streess the
caps plastic. Mb admited it in almost as many words in the email
published here last week. Many of the ballpoints crack new in the
store, perhaps at the factory when first twised. I've seen literally
dozens brand new in their box with all stickers and CLOSE examination
with a POWERFUL mag glass shows what looks like tine almost invisible
scratches in the cap and in almost all cases these when polished reveal
themselves to be stress cracks. Stress cracks are clearly a factory
design defect in no way caused by mishandling or any acident such as a
drop. Frank
fdu...@aol.com
> Do you post the cap when you write? That is probably the culprit. The
> plastic around he cap lip is not too thick. The ballpoint sleeve thickness
> is about 2.42mm (I checked with a digital caliper) and in the LeGrand
> ballpoint the threads are reinforced with a brass collar. I don't think you
> would have anything to worry about. Just out of curiosity, how old is your
> 149? Send it back to MB and they may give you a new cap.
I'm not at all sure a "reinforcement" with internal brass makes some
brittle plastic less prone to crack. Common physics says that means
there is more mass, weight and stress against the plastic in a drop.
The only true way to strengthen the plastic is to change the chemicals
in the brittle resin to make the resin itself less brittle. Note from
the very first post in this thread I have said its POSSIBLE MB has
improved their pens. I am keeping an open mind. But I have seen no
direct evidence of it and heard nothing either. What looks like a
reinforcement might just be a simple production change for other
reasons. Well over ten years ago MB claimed in Pen World thay had SOLVED
the cracking problem once and for all. So we've been down the MB road
of so-called reinforcements before with no results. I therefore remain
a huge skeptic, although no matter what anyone thinks I'd love to be
convinved its true the MB has really solved their problems. I'd be the
first to congratulate them if it was true. What would convince me?
Maybe a MB droping 5 or 6 new 149s on a floor at a show. Why not?
Parker used to drop Duofolds out of airplanes and 20 story buildings
unto concrete and I know of virtually no current production pen other
that some MBs that can't survive a 5 foot drop (cap on) to a carperted
floor many times with no damage at all. So anyone who thinks MB has
improved--start droping. Its a good real test. :) Frank
Burt Janz
>>I think its fair to say these are by far the most popular MBs and are in
>>fact sometimes the only MB carried by 1000s of stores such as many
>>Staples, OMax, many catalogue and membership type stores (BJs. etc)
>>etc.
These locations, according to MB itself, are not *authorized* to sell
the pens. In fact, the last time I looked at the MB box at Office Max,
the box had a "this is a grey market pen" sticker on it (ok, so it
didn't say "grey market", but it *did* say that it was *NOT COVERED
UNDER WARRANTEE*).
> I have had Pelikans crack, Omases dissolve and warp,
> parkers snap (a Duofold).
This is simply *amazing*. I'd like to see these pens, and I'd even pay
shipping *both ways*. The amount of abuse it must have taken to make a
Pelikan crack, an Omas dissolve, and a Parker snap... well, I can only
imagine what these pens must have gone through.
I've found most of my Pelikans to be quite dependable indeed, from the
el-cheapo 200 to the 800. In fact, I also have some *really* cheapo
Pelikans (from Swisher) that are also very dependable. There's *always*
either a 400, 600, or 800 in my rotation.
I could believe that an Omas would leak at the section -- the tar tends
to dissolve over time (it happened to me!) But, the material *itself*
dissolve? Amazing.
A Parker Duofold snap? How did *that* happen?
I sense some really good stories here, especially stories about how to
*not* treat pens.
> Other companies have slipped. Remember the Parker Platinum card for owners
> of Duofolds? What happened to them
Parker was purchased by a company that didn't really care about
after-sales support. Their service center still exists, and they *did*
replace a nib on a pen that was several years old... for free...
> Omas customer service? Did they take a
> trip to the Bermuda Triangle?
Nope - Omas was *also* purchased by a company that seems to be more
interested in *show* than in *service*. Nobody quite knows what's
happening there, but Jerry Trafford still services 'em.
> Stipula? Blechh. Nice pens lousy support.
From whom? Their support center, in Richardson Texas, does wonderful
work - I've had them "tweak" pens several times, because I *wanted* them
tweaked (nib changes, inner cap adjustments, etc.).
> Yet
> I don't see a tenth of the complaints that I do about MB. Yeah, their
> marketing may be a bit over the top and they are victims of their own
> success (they are by no means the best pen) and I don't care for their
> prohibition on internet sales, but I do not think they deserve the kind of
> scorn they receive on the Internet.
Could it be that your detection of "scorn" toward MB might be a
reflection of the kind of scorn you've shown here towards other pens and
pen companies? You've made a lot of generalizations that seem to be
unjustified or baseless, and may not reflect the experience of others.
For the record, I have several MBs. In fact, I have a favorite 146
that's also in my "permanent rotation". Why? I just like the way it
writes. It's not as smooth as some Stipulas, not as "flexy" as some
Pelikans, and a bit more unwieldy than some Parkers... but, taken on its
own merit, is a very nice pen.
I also have a Generations that has had it's section cover replaced
*twice* due to cracking, and a Poe that has had its nib replaced 3 times
(yes, it's on its 4th nib!) and MB admitted that the pen itself was
simply screwed up... but wouldn't replace it.
My experiences with MBs have been neither better nor worse than my
experiences with other pens: I've got a 51 that's *never* been right,
and a couple of Vacs that I will take with me *to the grave*. I've got
some Stipulas that I simply love, and one, in particular, that I simply
hate. Omas? There's a small Paragon in my pocket *right now*, and
another Paragon that's a true POS (yes, it's been looked at... it'll
probably *never* be right...) And Pelikan? Good and bad, just like the
others.
It's just a pen. If you like it, and it works for you, and makes you
feel good when you use it, then it's perfect -- for *you*. What others
think isn't important, as long as *you* like it.
You say tomato, I say tomahto... :-)
fdu...@aol.com
>
> >>I think its fair to say these are by far the most popular MBs and are in
> >>fact sometimes the only MB carried by 1000s of stores such as many
> >>Staples, OMax, many catalogue and membership type stores (BJs. etc)
> >>etc.
>
> These locations, according to MB itself, are not *authorized* to sell
> the pens. In fact, the last time I looked at the MB box at Office Max,
> the box had a "this is a grey market pen" sticker on it (ok, so it
> didn't say "grey market", but it *did* say that it was *NOT COVERED
> UNDER WARRANTEE*).
While I realize most of the reat of what you said sort of agreed with me
you did snip out the part in my post where I said lets not get into the
fact that many MBs are sold thru non-authorized places. They are still
100% geniuine MBs made in the MB factory. I bet those grey outlets sell
far more MBs (number of pens sold not total dollars) than everywhere
else combined. Its the ONLY place to buy them for 50-100-even many 100s
of miles in many locations. Its the only place within 50 miles of Fall
River and that area includes a very dense pouplation of millions. MB
puts up a front against it to calm their dealers but the bottom line is
MB doesn't really mind, and does nothing real to stop it since its more
profit. Staples and AwfuxMax MBs are NO different in quality than
those sold at the local MB stores. So this begs a silly question--does
MB design their most popular pens to break so customers buying them thru
non-authorized places end up with broken parts? Does it mean the ones
sold thru MB dealers can be easily replaced for free even if they they
crack every few months for life? I doubt it on both cases. Its a non
issue, ending with the plain fact that the most popular MBs are the ones
most likely to crack for whatever reason. Frank
Jiffy
> Do you post the cap when you write?
No, but, as I said, the pen is second hand. I don't think it's had a kind
life! It's got a myriad of tiny scratches on it and even a small scrape
(about 1mm by 2mm) at the bottom.
<snip>
> Just out of curiosity, how old is your 149?
Good question! My poor guess is late 80's or early 90's. It's got a two
tone, 14k gold 585 broad nib. I found a picture of an similar 149 and I've
put it up here:
http://www.jiffycomputers.com/149.html
My 149 does not seem to have a serial number. I searched the clip but it
only has "Germany" stamped on it. I did not purchase the pen myself. A more
knowledgeable friend bought it on my behalf so I'm not sureabout it's age.
> Send it back to MB and they may give you a new cap.
That'd be nice but I've a feeling they would take one look at it and then
charge me for the return postage instead! I've never noticed the cracks
until I went searching for them after reading this thread so it's not a
problem for me. The pen writes fine with Mont Blanc ink (I found the Parker
ink too runny for the 149). It has a good flow and fills easily. I find the
broad nib does limit it's use for me and I would like a finer nib. Any idea
how much it would be to get the nib changed?
Thanks, Jiffy
Burt Janz
> While I realize most of the reat of what you said sort of agreed with me
> you did snip out the part in my post where I said lets not get into the
> fact that many MBs are sold thru non-authorized places.
Once again, we're in "violent agreement" :-)
The point that I wanted to make was that, regardless of their quality or
that they're standard MBs, MBs sold at non-authorized places are *NOT*
covered under warrantee. Hence, MB won't even *consider* repairing
"grey market" pens... which, in itself, makes the purchase of a "grey
market" MB a very stupid thing to do: if it cracks, it's not covered *at
all*.
fdu...@aol.com
>
> fdu...@aol.com wrote:
> > While I realize most of the reat of what you said sort of agreed with me
> > you did snip out the part in my post where I said lets not get into the
> > fact that many MBs are sold thru non-authorized places.
>
> Once again, we're in "violent agreement" :-)
>
> The point that I wanted to make was that, regardless of their quality or
> that they're standard MBs, MBs sold at non-authorized places are *NOT*
> covered under warrantee. Hence, MB won't even *consider* repairing
> "grey market" pens... which, in itself, makes the purchase of a "grey
> market" MB a very stupid thing to do: if it cracks, it's not covered *at all*.
I know for a fact that people have returned broken MBs to Staples and
had em replaced instantly at no charge after showing the receipt. Easier
and faster than MB "service." I assume that vaires as well as factory
MB guarantee service varies. Legally of course Staples, AwfusMax and
any where else must replace a clearly defective pen. Beyond that they
want to keep customers happy. They back the pens themselves although I
do not know to what extent. I would not have the slightest hesitation
dealing with a major chain like Staples although it wouldnt hurt to ask
beforehand exactly what their guarantee policy is on the pens. Bottom
line though is each case will be different just as some people have
horrible experiences with MB factory serivce and others have good tales
to tell. And again as I said earlier in many areas its the ONLY place to
see and buy a MB in person. Frank
PENMART01
writes:
> The amount of abuse it must have taken to make a
>Pelikan crack, an Omas dissolve, and a Parker snap... well, I can only
>imagine what these pens must have gone through.
Pour milk on em... Snap, Crackle, Pop.
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Tim McNamara
>I know for a fact that people have returned broken MBs to Staples and
>had em replaced instantly at no charge after showing the receipt. Easier
>and faster than MB "service." I assume that vaires as well as factory
>MB guarantee service varies. Legally of course Staples, AwfusMax and
>any where else must replace a clearly defective pen. Beyond that they
>want to keep customers happy. They back the pens themselves although I>do not know to what extent.
The local Office Max had a placard to this effect on the counter- that
the MBs they sold were not covered by MB's warranty, but that Office Max
would warranty the pens themselves. I did "test" it once when I made the
error of not taking the pen I tested, and getting a rollerball that wasmultiply cracked. Office Max promptly replaced it.
john cline ii
Mont Blanc fountain pens at all. In fact, the pen selection overall
has been drastically reduced, but Mont Blanc is totally absent.
john cline ii who thought that needed saying
Sans Serif XXX
>Mont Blanc fountain pens
Montblanc took 'em to court to get them to stop selling their pens, Staples
too. It seems they were obtaining the pens on the 'gray' market. The MB's at my
local Office Max had the ser. #'s lasered off...MB didn't take kindly to this
practice, and Office Max put up a sign stating MB would not honor the warranty.
I believe Office Depot had the same disclaimer...I'm not a lawyer, but the
whole thing doesn't sound too precious to me...
Tim McNamara
> At least in my area, both Office Depot and Office Max no longer carry
> Mont Blanc fountain pens at all. In fact, the pen selection overall
> has been drastically reduced, but Mont Blanc is totally absent.
Ditto here. The fine pen selection has shrunk from a 20 display case
full of pens to about 5 feet, with zero fountain pens and a paltry
selection of ball points and roller balls.
Eric Diamond
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote:
> Why can't you realize your pen has had probably rather little normal
> daily use since its one of many pens you perhaps use on a regular
> basis? I am talking about using ONE pen daily and ONLY that ONE pen for
> years.
Well I maybe a little nuts here but I think there are very few people who
use a pen in that manner anymore. MY MB ballpoint has been either in my
briefcase of on my desk every day for a number of years. I keep a red refill
in it and use it to mark up my documents (I am a writer). I have never seen
even the slightest crack from stress on the mechanism.
> If you use even 5 pens on a regular basis each one gets only
> 1/5th of "regular" use.
I guess I do not consider using a single pen, exclusively, day in and day
out for many many years as "regular." I would consider that heavy usage.
Regular usage to me is that is is carried and handled more or less on a
daily basis, and not stored in a protective box or display case, but perhaps
in a purse, pocket, briefcase or pencil cup.
> Few if any ballpoint will crack under normal
> use over many decades. Yes, eventually something may wear out, perhaps
> taking 10-20-30 years, but the MB ballpoint is unique it that it MUST
> crack from its own twisting action within 1-3 years of daily use. Thats
> a simple stress crack set up by its own twisting cap that streess the
> caps plastic. Mb admited it in almost as many words in the email
> published here last week. Many of the ballpoints crack new in the
> store, perhaps at the factory when first twised. I've seen literally
> dozens brand new in their box with all stickers and CLOSE examination
> with a POWERFUL mag glass shows what looks like tine almost invisible
> scratches in the cap and in almost all cases these when polished reveal
> themselves to be stress cracks. Stress cracks are clearly a factory
> design defect in no way caused by mishandling or any acident such as a
> drop. Frank
Well maybe I am just lucky. However, I do not see MB's design as a flaw any
more than Pelikan's design or any other pen that has a combination of metal
and plastic parts. I am sure with rough usage and heavy over-twisting it can
cause stress fractures but If I were that type of person I would buy a Cross
or something with all metal construction. I turn the mechanism until the
point comes out, and then I stop. I use one hand to turn the pen, not two,
so maybe I am doing something different. Perhaps I am an anomaly, but I
don't think so. Also the LeGrand BP has a brass liner in its barrel, further
reinforcing the pen.
As far as stress fractures go, it is true that I do not inspect my pen daily
with a microscope. I write with it. If it fails then I have a problem. So
far it has not failed. Is there a stress fracture or fatal flaw waiting
inside my pen, waiting to burst out like an aneurism? Perhaps. But I don't
think most people subject their objects to that kind of scrutiny, especially
utilitarian objects like pens. If and when I have a problem I will take I to
be repaired, and I am pretty confident based on past experience that MB will
repair it. Now like I have said before I have seen many MB's that DID have
design flaws, but I believe they have been corrected.
Eric Diamond
<bj...@bit-net.com> wrote:
>> I have had Pelikans crack, Omases dissolve and warp,
>> parkers snap (a Duofold).
>
> This is simply *amazing*. I'd like to see these pens, and I'd even pay
> shipping *both ways*. The amount of abuse it must have taken to make a
> Pelikan crack, an Omas dissolve, and a Parker snap... well, I can only
> imagine what these pens must have gone through.
Well since the pens were repaired long ago, I cannot present the damaged
victims but I can share with you what happened. He Omas dissolved after
putting my favorite ink in it--Penman Sapphire. I have since learned that
the Solv-X solvent Parker uses in Penman and Quink is not compatible with
Omas' vegetal resin. The Pelikan cap SPLIT all the way down the side while I
was removing the cap. I was shocked, but it was a defect and SRW cheerfully
replaced the cap with a 2 week turnaround. It was an M800 btw. The Parker
was a Duofold international flat top design and the flat top of the cap
snapped off one day while I was clipping the pen to my jacket pocket. It had
to be sent back twice. One to replace the top, and again when the messed up
the installation of the clip.
> I've found most of my Pelikans to be quite dependable indeed, from the
> el-cheapo 200 to the 800. In fact, I also have some *really* cheapo
> Pelikans (from Swisher) that are also very dependable. There's *always*
> either a 400, 600, or 800 in my rotation.
I love Pelikan too. It is my favorite fountain pen of all time, with the
possible exception of my 51. Certainly the best modern FP I ever owned.
> I could believe that an Omas would leak at the section -- the tar tends
> to dissolve over time (it happened to me!) But, the material *itself*
> dissolve? Amazing.
That is what I was told by my dealer. It is possible that the ink dissoled
the tar, but they said the resin itself was damaged
>
> I sense some really good stories here, especially stories about how to
> *not* treat pens.
Not really. All were within acceptable use parameters. I am relatively
gentle with pens, especially fountain pens. Esp[ecially expensive FP's, and
the Duofold at the time was the most expensive pen I had ever purchased. An
insane amount. $220. I laugh now in light of what I spent on my 1931 LE from
Pelikan, but I am really pretty good with em.
> Parker was purchased by a company that didn't really care about
> after-sales support. Their service center still exists, and they *did*
> replace a nib on a pen that was several years old... for free...
I am just pointing out that pen makers other than MB have customer service
issues too. Parker is pretty good. So is Sheaffer. They used to be better.
MB used to suck eggs. Now they are very responsive.
>> Omas customer service? Did they take a
>> trip to the Bermuda Triangle?
>
> Nope - Omas was *also* purchased by a company that seems to be more
> interested in *show* than in *service*. Nobody quite knows what's
> happening there, but Jerry Trafford still services 'em.
OK, so if I go out and buy an Omas tomorrow, say a fine point Arte d'Italia
and it needs to be adjusted (which it often does), I have to send it to
Jerry and pay him? How is that preferable to Mont Blanc?
>> Yet
>> I don't see a tenth of the complaints that I do about MB. Yeah, their
>> marketing may be a bit over the top and they are victims of their own
>> success (they are by no means the best pen) and I don't care for their
>> prohibition on internet sales, but I do not think they deserve the kind of
>> scorn they receive on the Internet.
>
> Could it be that your detection of "scorn" toward MB might be a
> reflection of the kind of scorn you've shown here towards other pens and
> pen companies? You've made a lot of generalizations that seem to be
> unjustified or baseless, and may not reflect the experience of others.
I have made no generalizations only relayed my experience. In fact I like
plenty of other pen marques. Duofolds? Love em. I have 3. Bexley? Love 'em.
Parker 51? Drives me crazy, as I can't find a pen that writes better.
Pelikan? They can have my Pelikan when they pry it from my cold dead
fingers. Shaeffer? Don't care for 'em, never did. Personal taste thing.
Omas? Tried but I found them to be too finicky. Platinum? Great pens. Namiki
too. I also think Sensas are cool, I have a Nettuno 1911 that is wonderful.
Love my Lamys except for their ballpoints, which IMHO have a wimpy ink
formula. If they can change it they may have a winner. And I love my
Montblancs too. There is something about the shape of the 164 and 165 that
is very comfortable to my hand, especially for a ballpoint. I love my
document marker as it is a wonderfully foolish luxury for me. It is big wide
world of pens and its ALL good as far as I am concerned.
But that doesn't mean that the companies other than MB are perfect. Far from
it. My point is that my MB pens have a track record no worse and slightly
better than other pen brands I have had.
> It's just a pen. If you like it, and it works for you, and makes you
> feel good when you use it, then it's perfect -- for *you*. What others
> think isn't important, as long as *you* like it.
>
> You say tomato, I say tomahto... :-)
Yup. I think we are both in agreement there.
fdu...@aol.com
>
> Well I maybe a little nuts here but I think there are very few people who
> use a pen in that manner anymore.
All pen collectors, including myself, I think are a little nuts. :) All
collctors of anything are a little nuts when it comes to what they buy
and how much they pay for their obsessions. But I think a good pen,
like a good watch might also be purchased by someone who isn't a little
nuts and buys it as a one time only purchase of a fine personal item to
use daily for many years. I think a person buying a MB, or a Rolex, or
any other luxury item may not be a collector at all and may buy it with
the intention of owning and using ONE example a fine well made product
that can and will last for deacdes. Most MBs fail such a test
miserably.
> Well maybe I am just lucky. However, I do not see MB's design as a flaw any
> more than Pelikan's design or any other pen that has a combination of metal
> and plastic parts. I am sure with rough usage and heavy over-twisting it can
> cause stress fractures
No point arguing this anymopre. Its simple physics. The MB ballpen cap
WILL crack from its own twisting. You can deny it or refuse to belive it
or fail to understand it, but that is a fact. I spent enough years
setting up such physical testing proceduers in my lab directors days.
These cracks are not from abuse, not from over twisting, simply from
stress of its OWN twisting. Some will crack on the first twist, some
might last 1/4 million twists. But they ALL will and must crack
eventually. BTW, a 1/4 twists really represents perhaps 5-7 years daily
usage (50 operations daily) and its the outside extreme end of the
plastic's strength. In fact I doubt one out of 50 would last that
long. I would guess the average to quite serious and obvious stress
cracks is around 75,000 twists, which really is about 2 years daily
usage at 50 operations daily. Frank
fdu...@aol.com
> Well since the pens were repaired long ago, I cannot present the damaged
> victims but I can share with you what happened. He Omas dissolved after
> putting my favorite ink in it--Penman Sapphire. I have since learned that
> the Solv-X solvent Parker uses in Penman and Quink is not compatible with
> Omas' vegetal resin.
Eric, your facts are wrong. Solv-X is use as a simple wetting agent and
it or something almost exactly like it is used in every fountain pen ink
on earth. Omas has some serious problems with their veggie resin, but
in no way was it related to inks, even though I realize they tried to
spread that story around. I'm the one here with 20 years in an ink and
dye lab, and I know what I'm talking about. BTW, the amount of wetting
agent in ink is less than one drop per bottle, and in NO WAY ON EARTH
can such a almost trace amount of wetting agent hurt any pen material.
Omas resin is itself water souable, and the problems were simply caused
by the most destructive thing in ink attacking some improperly made,
mixed or cured Omas resin--the water itself. Not the wetting agent,
which at least when Quink was made in the US, was pure simple ALL
household dertergent at the aprox rate of a couple drops per gallon of
ink. Frank
Tim McNamara
> He Omas dissolved after putting my favorite ink in it--Penman
> Sapphire. I have since learned that the Solv-X solvent Parker uses
> in Penman and Quink is not compatible with Omas' vegetal resin.
From recent threads, Solv-X appears to be... laundry detergent. "All"
to be rpecise. Omas's vegetal resin is not compatible with soap?
That's actually kind of scary.
> The Pelikan cap SPLIT all the way down the side while I was removing
> the cap. I was shocked, but it was a defect and SRW cheerfully
> replaced the cap with a 2 week turnaround. It was an M800 btw.
Not too bad a recovery by the distributor, surprising that it happened
in the first place.
> The Parker was a Duofold international flat top design and the flat
> top of the cap snapped off one day while I was clipping the pen to
> my jacket pocket. It had to be sent back twice. One to replace the
> top, and again when the messed up the installation of the clip.
Huh. Was this a fairly thick fabric (e.g., a tweed jacket?). I've
wondered how likely clipping pens into a pocket with thick fabric was
to cause damage.
> > I could believe that an Omas would leak at the section -- the tar
> > tends to dissolve over time (it happened to me!) But, the
> > material *itself* dissolve? Amazing.
>
> That is what I was told by my dealer. It is possible that the ink
> dissoled the tar, but they said the resin itself was damaged
This may be more chutzpah than amazing. Chutzpah on the part of the
dealer, that is.
> I am just pointing out that pen makers other than MB have customer
> service issues too. Parker is pretty good. So is Sheaffer. They used
> to be better. MB used to suck eggs. Now they are very responsive.
The latter is far from a consensus opinion. ;-)
> OK, so if I go out and buy an Omas tomorrow, say a fine point Arte
> d'Italia and it needs to be adjusted (which it often does), I have
> to send it to Jerry and pay him? How is that preferable to Mont
> Blanc?
Not at all, although I'd rather Jerry get the money than the people
who own Montblanc. Omas has a reputation for pens with problems,
however, especially leakage difficulties.
> But that doesn't mean that the companies other than MB are
> perfect. Far from it. My point is that my MB pens have a track
> record no worse and slightly better than other pen brands I have
> had.
Then you have been fortunate indeed in your dealings with Montblanc.
Burt Janz
> Eric Diamond <er...@firstwater.net> writes:
[snip]
>>>I could believe that an Omas would leak at the section -- the tar
>>>tends to dissolve over time (it happened to me!) But, the
>>>material *itself* dissolve? Amazing.
>>
>>That is what I was told by my dealer. It is possible that the ink
>>dissoled the tar, but they said the resin itself was damaged
>
> This may be more chutzpah than amazing. Chutzpah on the part of the
> dealer, that is.
I heartfully agree. People are people, and dealers are dealers. There
are people who don't like Omas at all, and will slam them at will... and
some of these people are dealers.
Omas doesn't properly seal their sections - sorry Jerry - and I've had
to re-seal the sections *several time* with caulking latex... which
seems to work amazingly well: it never fully dries, it stays slightly
flexible, is completely waterproof, and is available in many colors.
But, in all that time, I've never seen the vegetal resin section threads
break down or dissolve. I'd believe that the *tar* might have affected
the vegetal resin, since it isn't really water soluble and might, just
might, contain something that would affect the threads.
And, an overzealous repair person who was *unfamiliar* with Omas might,
just might, have screwed up the repair without admitting it.
The "vegetal resin" material is not going to dissolve over time simply
by being immersed in water. Neither will the Conway Stuart "Milk" pen
(casein). Won't happen. The materials may become soft and pliable, but
they won't *dissolve*.
Frank has reviewed the chemical consistency of ink before. It's simply
*colored water* with a bit of detergent added to break down surface
tension. Nothing poisonous or caustic. In fact, if it *was* caustic,
it would probably cause damage to the *paper*, and cause the *paper* to
"fall apart" after being written on!
>>OK, so if I go out and buy an Omas tomorrow, say a fine point Arte
>>d'Italia and it needs to be adjusted (which it often does), I have
>>to send it to Jerry and pay him? How is that preferable to Mont
>>Blanc?
>
> Not at all, although I'd rather Jerry get the money than the people
> who own Montblanc. Omas has a reputation for pens with problems,
> however, especially leakage difficulties.
Frankly, the lack of a true Omas repair facility is doing them more harm
than anything else - I won't buy *any more* pens from Omas until I know
where they can be sent for in-warrantee repair. I'm sure that there are
others who feel the same way... and there are a lot of dealers who are
also "shying away" from Omas.
I wonder why Omas hasn't publicly responded?
Of course, MB *FLATLY REFUSED* to even have a web "presence" until early
last year (or late 2000... I don't remember anymore). What does that
say about their refusal to provide "pre-sales" information to possible
clientele?
>>But that doesn't mean that the companies other than MB are
>>perfect. Far from it. My point is that my MB pens have a track
>>record no worse and slightly better than other pen brands I have
>>had.
>
> Then you have been fortunate indeed in your dealings with Montblanc.
I agree: I've had mixed feelings about Montblanc, and have had more
post-purchase service *failures* than successes with their pens. And,
my Poe still *sucks*... :-(
Eric Diamond
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote:
You may be right on this one, I just know that 2 of my Omas pens never had
any trouble with any ink until they met Mr. Penman. Than I started wearing
more ink than writing with it thanks to leaking. I took it to my dealer and
that is what they told me. Penman ink = bad news. If solv-x was not the
culprit than it might have been something else, but once the pens were
repaired, I never used Penman ink again and I never had problems again.
fdu...@aol.com
> You may be right on this one, I just know that 2 of my Omas pens never had
> any trouble with any ink until they met Mr. Penman. Than I started wearing
> more ink than writing with it thanks to leaking. I took it to my dealer and
> that is what they told me. Penman ink = bad news. If solv-x was not the
> culprit than it might have been something else, but once the pens were
> repaired, I never used Penman ink again and I never had problems again.
Other times they blamed Quink. Omas blames likes to blame every problem
their pens have on external factors and other pen companies. What
happened to your pens and when it happened was a matter of pure chance.
At least MB admits their pens crack easily and leaves it at that. If
Omas pens cracked as easily Omas would probably say its due to Waterman
ink. If an Omas clip fell off it would be due to Sheaffer ink. If the
trim falls off thats caused by Pelikan ink. :) Frank
Eric Diamond
McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> Eric Diamond <er...@firstwater.net> writes:
>
> From recent threads, Solv-X appears to be... laundry detergent. "All"
> to be rpecise. Omas's vegetal resin is not compatible with soap?
> That's actually kind of scary.
See my reply to Frank, but it may have been something else with Penman ink.
I assumed it was Solv-X, but it may have been something else. Never had any
problems with any other ink.
> Not too bad a recovery by the distributor, surprising that it happened
> in the first place.
>
>> The Parker was a Duofold international flat top design and the flat
>> top of the cap snapped off one day while I was clipping the pen to
>> my jacket pocket. It had to be sent back twice. One to replace the
>> top, and again when the messed up the installation of the clip.
>
> Huh. Was this a fairly thick fabric (e.g., a tweed jacket?). I've
> wondered how likely clipping pens into a pocket with thick fabric was
> to cause damage.
It was a tweed jacket but not overly heavy tweed. I have not had problems
with any other pens in it. I think it was either a flaw in thte plastic that
finally gave way, or a hairline crack.
>> That is what I was told by my dealer. It is possible that the ink
>> dissoled the tar, but they said the resin itself was damaged
>
> This may be more chutzpah than amazing. Chutzpah on the part of the
> dealer, that is.
May be. I may never know for sure.
>> I am just pointing out that pen makers other than MB have customer
>> service issues too. Parker is pretty good. So is Sheaffer. They used
>> to be better. MB used to suck eggs. Now they are very responsive.
>
> The latter is far from a consensus opinion. ;-)
Correct, it only represents a consensus of one: me. ;-)
>> OK, so if I go out and buy an Omas tomorrow, say a fine point Arte
>> d'Italia and it needs to be adjusted (which it often does), I have
>> to send it to Jerry and pay him? How is that preferable to Mont
>> Blanc?
>
> Not at all, although I'd rather Jerry get the money than the people
> who own Montblanc. Omas has a reputation for pens with problems,
> however, especially leakage difficulties.
So why is it that with all the quality control problems that Omas has, they
are still recommended all over the place by Internet pen collectors, while
MB is continually roundly criticized? At least MB HAS a service center and a
network of dealers who will do many repairs on the spot. How many other pen
companies do that? Hmmm...when was the last time I went to the OMAS
store...uh, never? Are there any Parker dealers who do anything other than
send the pen to Janesville? And as far as Jerry is concerned, he does
excellent work, but if I have to calculate the fee of a professional nib
repairer into the cost of a pen what does that say about the quality of the
product?
>> But that doesn't mean that the companies other than MB are
>> perfect. Far from it. My point is that my MB pens have a track
>> record no worse and slightly better than other pen brands I have
>> had.
>
> Then you have been fortunate indeed in your dealings with Montblanc.
I don't consider myself fortunate, The certainly have no reason to treat me
any better than anybody else.
Charles Perry
"Eric Diamond" <er...@firstwater.net> wrote in message
news:B8BA8FF0.7A5E%er...@firstwater.net...
<snip>
> So why is it that with all the quality control problems that Omas has,
they
> are still recommended all over the place by Internet pen collectors, while
> MB is continually roundly criticized? At least MB HAS a service center and
a
> network of dealers who will do many repairs on the spot. How many other
pen
> companies do that? Hmmm...when was the last time I went to the OMAS
> store...uh, never? Are there any Parker dealers who do anything other than
> send the pen to Janesville? And as far as Jerry is concerned, he does
> excellent work, but if I have to calculate the fee of a professional nib
> repairer into the cost of a pen what does that say about the quality of
the
> product?
> Eric Diamond, 32°
> Oriental Lodge No.33
> A.F. & A.M.
> Chicago, Illinois USA
>
Forgive the newbie question. Who is Jerry? I have an Elysee that really
needs the nib adjusted.
Charles Perry P.E.
fdu...@aol.com
> So why is it that with all the quality control problems that Omas has, they
> are still recommended all over the place by Internet pen collectors, while
> MB is continually roundly criticized? At least MB HAS a service center and a
> network of dealers who will do many repairs on the spot. How many other pen
> companies do that? Hmmm...when was the last time I went to the OMAS
> store...uh, never? Are there any Parker dealers who do anything other than
> send the pen to Janesville? And as far as Jerry is concerned, he does
> excellent work, but if I have to calculate the fee of a professional nib
> repairer into the cost of a pen what does that say about the quality of the
> product?
I havent read that much praise of Omas in recent months. I'd say the
three worst pen companies today among the majors are in no special order
Omas, Visconti and MB. The four best IMHO are, again in no special
order Sheaffer, Parker, Waterman, Pelikan and Cross. But even the best
are in not in the same quality league as most pens made 50 or more years
ago in terms of quality control and all current pen companies have had
some serious QC problems at one time or another.
As far as service again I'd have to remind everyone that the only GOOD
serive is a pen that requires NO service. However these four "best"
usually provide reasonably good and fast service and in most cases at
little to no charge to their customers. Having said that no pen company
on earth provides service good enough anymore to be assured you will get
a pen back working perfectly in that every company has been known to
return pens sent in with problems like skipping with the problem
uncorrected once returned to the customer. Sheaffer and
Parker/Waterman both had a few glitches in service with the recent
ownership changes as well. Pelikan has some major problems with
distrubtor changes and Cross loosing money as they are now charges a
very reasonable minimum of $5. for service. FD
Burt Janz
> If
> Omas pens cracked as easily Omas would probably say its due to Waterman
> ink. If an Omas clip fell off it would be due to Sheaffer ink. If the
> trim falls off thats caused by Pelikan ink. :) Frank
...ahem... No, the problem with Omas trim isn't caused by Pelikan ink.
That particular problem is caused by Levenger ink, especially the
Pinkly... :-)
BLandolf
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote in message
> ... The four best IMHO are, again in no special order Sheaffer
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tim McNamara
> So why is it that with all the quality control problems that Omas
> has, they are still recommended all over the place by Internet pen
> collectors, while MB is continually roundly criticized?
A good question, but there have been multiple posts to this newsgroup
in the past year about leaky Omas pens. I think that Montblanc comes
in for special criticism because they market themselves as *the*
prestige pen in the world.
Burt Janz
> I assumed it was Solv-X, but it may have been something else. Never had any
> problems with any other ink.
I had problems with Penman Black in almost every pen I tried it,
including Parker pens (which, if you believe their ads, should have used
Penman just fine).
OTOH, Quink *also* contains Solv-X, and I've found Quink to be very
"friendly" on *every* pen that I've used it in -- including Omas. I
don't use Quink much, mainly 'cuz the colors aren't as "deep" as other
inks (like Waterman or PR).
>>>I am just pointing out that pen makers other than MB have customer
>>>service issues too. Parker is pretty good. So is Sheaffer. They used
>>>to be better. MB used to suck eggs. Now they are very responsive.
>>
>>The latter is far from a consensus opinion. ;-)
>
> Correct, it only represents a consensus of one: me. ;-)
How do you define "responsive"? If you mean that they *respond* when
you send them a pen, I agree completely.
If you mean that their response is *completely acceptable* when you send
them a pen, I disagree.
But I've also found *through research* that most fountain pen companies
are *publicly* moving to a limited 1-year warrantee on their products.
What they do *privately* may be different than what they say *publicly*,
but the public policies are changing to limited "nib swapping" and 1
year "manufacturer defect" warrantees.
(I'm gathering this info for an upcoming revision of the FAQ -- it'd be
real nice to know the "official warrantee" period for fountain pens in
various price ranges, so I'm gathering it up and will publish it as soon
as it's mostly complete.)
>>>OK, so if I go out and buy an Omas tomorrow, say a fine point Arte
>>>d'Italia and it needs to be adjusted (which it often does), I have
>>>to send it to Jerry and pay him? How is that preferable to Mont
>>>Blanc?
>>
>>Not at all, although I'd rather Jerry get the money than the people
>>who own Montblanc. Omas has a reputation for pens with problems,
>>however, especially leakage difficulties.
Leakage, yes. Nibs and feeds? Not really. Body quality? No.
"Precious resin" and cracking? I have used at least one Omas Paragon
for at least 2 years almost continuously, and it hasn't cracked yet.
But, then, neither has my MB 146, or my Boheme.
However, my Generations has cracked twice... and MB has replaced the
cracked nib hood both times *at no cost*.
Am I happy with MB service? Yes and no. Yes, where the Generations and
my 146 (nib swap) are concerned. No, where my Poe (on its 4th nib, and
still sucks) is concerned.
> So why is it that with all the quality control problems that Omas has, they
> are still recommended all over the place by Internet pen collectors, while
> MB is continually roundly criticized?
It isn't really MB that's being criticized... it's the published
statements by some collectors that MB "is the best pen you can get". I
don't agree that MB is the *best*, but it is definitely *not* the worst.
MB is a bit overpriced for what you get... but, then again, *MOST*
modern pens are overpriced for what you get! Frank's got the answer to
this problem squarely nailed: if you want a good pen for easy money, get
a Vac, a 51, or a Snorkel.
> At least MB HAS a service center and a
> network of dealers who will do many repairs on the spot. How many other pen
> companies do that?
MB does have a service center... but so does Parker, Waterman, Sheaffer,
Stipula, Retro 51, Visconti...
Repairs on the spot? FPH and Bromfield, both *reputable* dealers, will
make repairs *at the store* for you.
> Hmmm...when was the last time I went to the OMAS
> store...uh, never?
Do you *buy* your MBs at the MB "boutique" stores? Or, do you get them
someplace where you can get a discount?
> Are there any Parker dealers who do anything other than
> send the pen to Janesville?
Bromfield and FPH for two, at least.
> And as far as Jerry is concerned, he does
> excellent work, but if I have to calculate the fee of a professional nib
> repairer into the cost of a pen what does that say about the quality of the
> product?
Absolutely nothing - I've gotten *shit* nibs from MB. What does that
say about MB?
OTOH, I've had Jerry convert nibs *into* italic... what does that say
about the pen companies?
>>>But that doesn't mean that the companies other than MB are
>>>perfect. Far from it. My point is that my MB pens have a track
>>>record no worse and slightly better than other pen brands I have
>>>had.
>>
>>Then you have been fortunate indeed in your dealings with Montblanc.
>
> I don't consider myself fortunate, The certainly have no reason to treat me
> any better than anybody else.
Your statement "no worse and slightly better" is far more agreeable than
this quote from one of your earlier posts:
"I find Montblanc products of recent manufacture to be exceptionally
well made in comparison to any other modern manufacture, with the
possible exception of Pelikan."
My Generations is circa 2000. I'd consider this "recent". And it has
cracked twice.
My Poe is circa 1998. I'd consider this "recent". It's on its 4th nib.
OTOH, I have Omas, Pelikans, and Stipulas that are in almost *constant*
use, manufactured circa the same time period, which have *never* needed
repair.
I assume that those are the "any other modern manufacture" that you
referred to.
Patrick Lamb
>
> I havent read that much praise of Omas in recent months. I'd say the
> three worst pen companies today among the majors are in no special order
> Omas, Visconti and MB. The four best IMHO are, again in no special
> order Sheaffer, Parker, Waterman, Pelikan and Cross.
OK, so what's the FIFTH best company? :)
Pat
--
Correct email address like pdlamb 'round-about comcast point net.
Burt Janz
> fdu...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> I havent read that much praise of Omas in recent months. I'd say the
>>three worst pen companies today among the majors are in no special order
>>Omas, Visconti and MB. The four best IMHO are, again in no special
>>order Sheaffer, Parker, Waterman, Pelikan and Cross.
>
>
> OK, so what's the FIFTH best company? :)
>
> Pat
Lamy... no, Delta.... no, Stipula.... no, B&E... no, Cartier...
AAAGGGHHH!!! :-)
\burt
(with his trusty Omas Paragon in his pocket - pfffffft!!)
Z
I'll have to remember not to use Sheaffer ink in an Omas. Wouldn't want
to go around with a clipless pen (at least not one made after 1960).
--
Z.
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote in message news:3C951D...@aol.com...
Z
I'll have to remember not to use Sheaffer ink in an Omas. Wouldn't want
to go around with a clipless pen (at least not one made after 1960).
--
Z.
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote in message news:3C951D...@aol.com...
Eric Diamond
McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
And that is exactly my point. The scorn heaped upon Montblanc is not due to
any real issues with their products, but with their marketing. Among watch
collectors, Rolex enjoys the same type of scorn: They refuse to allow
internet sales, they are draconian in honoring warranties, and they claim to
be the best watch money can buy. Of course those who love Patek, Vacheron
Constantin, AP, and others know better, right? Still rolex sells nearly
every watch they make. And among fine pen makers, Montblanc outsells the
others too. Is it because of their marketing? Probably, but remember, MB has
a long history of innovative Marketing and creating hype. One can go as far
back as the 1920's to the cars MB drove around Berlin with giant fountain
pens affixed to the roofs.
My point which never gets acknowledged either here or on pentrace.com (where
I also hang out) is that MB is no better or worse than any other modern pen
company in terms of its product quality control or its service. If you hate
their marketing, then criticize that. But don't get yer panties in a bunch
because you heard once that somebody's MB fountain pen got a crack in it.
They all crack and break and need service every now and then, except for
those damn aerometric Parker 51's. A million years from now when we are long
gone and the cockroaches have evolved into intelligent life forms, they will
be wondering aloud why roaches can't develop a pen as good as the Parker 51.
Eric Diamond
<bj...@bit-net.com> wrote:
> How do you define "responsive"? If you mean that they *respond* when
> you send them a pen, I agree completely.
Ok, here are two incidents, both illustrate good service I got from them.
First incident: While tryingt o adjust the nib of my Poe myself, I
completely mangled the feed (don't ask--let's just say that what I atmpted
was nowhere in "Da Book"). They took it cheerfully, and sent it to Germany,
where all LE's go. Upon arrival from Germany I got a letter saying they had
my pen and would send it back repaired with in 2 weeks. I then received a
call from my local MB boutique every week with an update on the progress of
the pen. Total time away was 6 weeks. No charge, even though I clearly
voided the warranty and expected to pay at least shipping. Nothing was
charged ad they gave me a free cleaning cloth.
Incident 2. I stepped on my 164 ballpoint--black resin. Barrel cracked. Took
it in to the boutique and told them what happened. The pen was 7 years old.
Since it was out of warranty they charged me $25 and proceeded to replace
all the parts of the pen except the clip, even though the parts did not need
replacing. When I asked why I was told that MB had improved their propelling
mechanism and they wanted to give me the new mechanism. Repair done on the
spot. No need to send it to MB.
In both cases I call that excellent service. I call that responsive service.
> Repairs on the spot? FPH and Bromfield, both *reputable* dealers, will
> make repairs *at the store* for you.
>
>> Hmmm...when was the last time I went to the OMAS
>> store...uh, never?
>
> Do you *buy* your MBs at the MB "boutique" stores? Or, do you get them
> someplace where you can get a discount?
It depends. Some pens I buy at the boutique, and others I buy at a local
dealer. I bought my Proust ballpoint on ebay.
> Bromfield and FPH for two, at least.
> Absolutely nothing - I've gotten *shit* nibs from MB. What does that
> say about MB?
That they are fully capable of producing shitty nibs! ;-) I got a bad one
too that eventually had to go to Mottishaw to be whipped into shape.
> OTOH, I've had Jerry convert nibs *into* italic... what does that say
> about the pen companies?
Nothing. If you want custom work done on a pen thank Jah there are guys like
John and Jerry around who can do it. Imagine a world with only fine medium
and broad. Yeccch.
>>>> But that doesn't mean that the companies other than MB are
>>>> perfect. Far from it. My point is that my MB pens have a track
>>>> record no worse and slightly better than other pen brands I have
>>>> had.
>>>
>>> Then you have been fortunate indeed in your dealings with Montblanc.
>>
>> I don't consider myself fortunate, The certainly have no reason to treat me
>> any better than anybody else.
>
> Your statement "no worse and slightly better" is far more agreeable than
> this quote from one of your earlier posts:
>
> "I find Montblanc products of recent manufacture to be exceptionally
> well made in comparison to any other modern manufacture, with the
> possible exception of Pelikan."
Yes, but read my statement again. *I* find MB products exceptionally well
made, in comparison to other writing products [I have owned]. I never bought
a Generations and I do not yet have a 149. I have many pens and my MB are
the ones I take with me every day. That's just me, I guess.
> OTOH, I have Omas, Pelikans, and Stipulas that are in almost *constant*
> use, manufactured circa the same time period, which have *never* needed
> repair.
Then I guess you have had a different experience. And my experience in no
way invalidates yours.
fdu...@aol.com
> My point which never gets acknowledged either here or on pentrace.com (where
> I also hang out) is that MB is no better or worse than any other modern pen
> company in terms of its product quality control or its service. If you hate
> their marketing, then criticize that. But don't get yer panties in a bunch
> because you heard once that somebody's MB fountain pen got a crack in it.
> They all crack and break and need service every now and then,
Eric you refuse to understand that many MB pens are intentionally or not
DESIGNED so they must crack. Few pens I know of are so designed in a
way that they MUST crack with normal use. That is the story of the
standard MB ballpen even if you will not understand it, or refuse to
belive it. Your point doesn't get acknowledged because its simply your
incorrect opinion--nothing more. You have the right to your opinion and
thats fine. But its going to be an opinion thats shared by very few
others, simply because the facts which are well known show your opinion
to be wrong. In all honesty I'd say the average MB plastic pen is
literally 50 to 100 times more likely to crack than most other pens made
either today or in years past. Frank
Tim McNamara
> And that is exactly my point. The scorn heaped upon Montblanc is not
> due to any real issues with their products, but with their
> marketing.
<snip>
> My point which never gets acknowledged either here or on
> pentrace.com (where I also hang out) is that MB is no better or
> worse than any other modern pen company in terms of its product
> quality control or its service. If you hate their marketing, then
> criticize that. But don't get yer panties in a bunch because you
> heard once that somebody's MB fountain pen got a crack in it.
You still don't get it. The scorn is heaped upon MB because they make
a lousy product, with lousy quality control, with poor materials that
are not appropriate for the purpose, with lousy customer
service... and have the gall to market themselves as the best pen in
the world.
There are *very real* issues with MB products, and those issues are in
fact the basis of the scorn many people feel towards Montblanc,
amplified by their arrogance and marketing strategy.
That of course is why your point never gets acknowledged.
fdu...@aol.com
don't get yer panties in a bunch
> > because you heard once that somebody's MB fountain pen got a crack in it.
> > They all crack and break and need service every now and then,
Once??? Try literally thousands upon thousands. Maybe its time to
again post the url for the MB Owners Speak Out web site---the url is
http://www.clearsail.net/~forrest/ I have nothing to do with the site
and have never posted there and yes, a few posts do actually praise MB
as well. The site has had a major upgrade since I last looked at it
many months ago. FD
Burt Janz
> On 3/17/02 8:13 PM, in article 3C954D2E...@bit-net.com, "Burt Janz"
> <bj...@bit-net.com> wrote:
>
>
>>How do you define "responsive"? If you mean that they *respond* when
>>you send them a pen, I agree completely.
>
>
> Ok, here are two incidents, both illustrate good service I got from them.
> In both cases I call that excellent service. I call that responsive service.
In your cases, I agree that you got excellent service - no question.
However, in my case, my MB Poe (which may or may not have been sent back
to Germany) still stinks, and MB *charged* me to do the repair last
time. Why? The pen was out of warrantee... even though it had been in
their shop for at least 3 months out of the last year.
I couldn't use it for 3 months... and they counted that *against* me.
The pen still isn't right, I paid $45 for a new nib... and it still
isn't right.
I wouldn't call that excellent service.
Maybe I spoke with them on the wrong days... :-)
>>Your statement "no worse and slightly better" is far more agreeable than
>>this quote from one of your earlier posts:
>>
>>"I find Montblanc products of recent manufacture to be exceptionally
>>well made in comparison to any other modern manufacture, with the
>>possible exception of Pelikan."
>
>
> Yes, but read my statement again. *I* find MB products exceptionally well
> made, in comparison to other writing products [I have owned]. I never bought
> a Generations and I do not yet have a 149. I have many pens and my MB are
> the ones I take with me every day. That's just me, I guess.
Yup. Another case of YMMV.
Why a Generations? The orange looks just like a Creamsicle... yum!
>>OTOH, I have Omas, Pelikans, and Stipulas that are in almost *constant*
>>use, manufactured circa the same time period, which have *never* needed
>>repair.
>
> Then I guess you have had a different experience. And my experience in no
> way invalidates yours.
Yup, we find ourselves in agreement here. Experiences vary.
I guess I've become "hypersensitized" to the "MB's are the best -
Stipulas are the worst" postings... sorry if I was being too sensitive...
Eric Diamond
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote:
> Eric you refuse to understand that many MB pens are intentionally or not
> DESIGNED so they must crack.
You're right, I refuse to believe that. I am a designer and I take offense
of the suggestion that MB product were DESIGNED to crack. They weren't. You
may have an opion that oo many of them do crack, but to say they are
DESIGNED to crack involves intention and I cannot believe that any designer
would design a product to fail. Designers make mistakes but they are
generally not an evil bunch, and I resent the implication. Lets stop with
the "they are DESIGNED-to-crack" rhetoric until you can produce a smoking
gun, like a memo form montblanc or design schematics showing the design.
> Your point doesn't get acknowledged because its simply your
> incorrect opinion--nothing more.
I do not believe it is incorrect. I have seen no evidence to the contrary,
and your opinion while valued by me and others here is by no means fact. You
tell me that MB pens are designed to crack under normal usage in 1-3 years.
I have had MB ballpoint pens for over seven years and never did they crack
from normal usage. So who am I to believe? What am I to think? Do I believe
you or my own experience? MUST implies inevitability and my experience
disproves your assertion. So what is to be done?
> But its going to be an opinion thats shared by very few
> others, simply because the facts which are well known show your opinion
> to be wrong.
C'mon, Frank. Facts? All I have seen is assertion. Show me facts. Show me
something that can be verified.
Eric Diamond
McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> You still don't get it. The scorn is heaped upon MB because they make
> a lousy product, with lousy quality control, with poor materials that
> are not appropriate for the purpose, with lousy customer
> service... and have the gall to market themselves as the best pen in
> the world.
Lousy? Is that fact or another assertion? Poor materials? I think though
MB's plastic may be more brittle than Omas, it is less prone to scratching.
It is a trade-off and perhaps MB is not your cup of tea, but it does not
make it a lousy product. And gall? Who DOESN'T market their product as the
best? 1-800-BEST-PEN will connect you to....Parker/Waterman! HOW DARE
THEY!!!
You are just pissed off that Montblanc markets more successfully than all
the major pen companies, and in your opinion their products don't warrant
the acclaim they receive among the hoi-polloi. So you and other collectors
heap scorn on Montblanc because you guys are the true connoisseurs, the
inside guys, the GUYS IN THE KNOW. It allows you to feel superior in your
knowledge. It allows you to be distinctive. It is classic collector behavior
and it exists in every collector community. We all do it. Its fun. Why not
just be honest about it? You accuse me of obstinacy when it is you who are
obstinate. Frank has to believe that there is a Montblanc conspiracy with
pens being designed to self destruct. Most people who buy Montblanc buy it
because they want a nice pen. Many buy it because it is a symbol of status.
Some people (like me) who can pretty much afford any pen they want buy them
because they like the pens! Imagine that! Those of us who are collectors
avoid that popular brand because we use our collection of pens as a way of
distinguishing ourselves and expressing ourselves and God forbid we should
do what everyone else is doing. Look, Tim, it is not a criticism. It is
human behavior. It exists among music and sports fans, among car nuts, among
wine experts. (Chateau Lafite? Please it is sooooo overrated!) It is how
enthusiast distinguish themselves. Can't we be honest about it?
MB is a good brand. If it weren't they would never sell as many pens as they
do. Advertising can get you to try a bad product ONCE. Bad products don't
last. They don't become number one, or number two. Even good products that
go bad don't last. Just ask Arthur Andersen. MB is a good product. It may
not be a great product, it may not be the best product, but it certainly
isn't a lousy product, not compared to the other players in the arena.
>
> There are *very real* issues with MB products, and those issues are in
> fact the basis of the scorn many people feel towards Montblanc,
> amplified by their arrogance and marketing strategy.
I think there are some issues with the products namely with the 144 FP and
rollerball. I think MB is listening and addressing the problems. Arrogance?
Show me the arrogance in their marketing materials! Show me where they claim
to better than anyone else. Show me where they denigrate any other brand!
Show me how their branding is more arrogant than another pen vendor with a
strong brand, say CARTIER? Can you even articulate their marketing strategy?
Or do you just assume you know?
There are a lot of assumptions around here that get accepted as fact because
they keep getting repeated, over and over by the same people. Let's have
some evidence other than "I once sent them a pen and it came back scratchy,"
anecdotes.
> That of course is why your point never gets acknowledged.
And the fact that it doesn't will not stop me from making it. Isn't a
spirited debate more fun anyway?
Eric Diamond
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Eric Diamond wrote:
> don't get yer panties in a bunch
>>> because you heard once that somebody's MB fountain pen got a crack in it.
>>> They all crack and break and need service every now and then,
>
> Once??? Try literally thousands upon thousands.
Out of how many millions upon millions? Literally? OK, lets get literal for
a minute--how *many* thousands? Where is the evidence? What is your source?
Maybe its time to
> again post the url for the MB Owners Speak Out web site---the url is
> http://www.clearsail.net/~forrest/ I have nothing to do with the site
> and have never posted there and yes, a few posts do actually praise MB
> as well. The site has had a major upgrade since I last looked at it
> many months ago.
Oh, that old thing again? That site is what you cite as evidence? You who
are a scientist? C'mon Frank I expect better. First of all the sample of
this site is self-selecting--people post to complain. There is no random
sampling, and as such it does not represent the MB user experience. Next,
they do not reveal their editorial policy--do all posts make it up to the
site? Do they edit? What are their standards? Third it is obvious that the
owner of the site has an ax to grind. It is a petition, Frank, not an
accumulation of data.
fdu...@aol.com
>
> You're right, I refuse to believe that. I am a designer and I take offense
> of the suggestion that MB product were DESIGNED to crack. They weren't. You
> may have an opion that oo many of them do crack, but to say they are
> DESIGNED to crack involves intention and I cannot believe that any designer
> would design a product to fail.
As I have posted many time two MB reps have confirmed to me over the
years the MB pen is desigend to fail at about three years. Both had
visited the MB factory and sat in on sales and design meetings there.
This company stratagy was adopted around 15 yeras ago on the theory like
a new car buyer may trade in a car every three years so will a MB
buyer. George Parker once said "if we designed our pens to really last
forever we would go out of business." That was published in a
Parkergram in the 1930s. Most products are deisgned with an average
life--not to last as long as possible. Companies must weigh cost of the
product, vs eventual sales of replacements. The sad fact is MB
themselves admits their pens crack from internal stress. Not only in
Pen World articles from MB themselves, but even here a couple weeks ago
in an email from MB customer service. I suppose that information, which
comes direct from MB is also false in your opinion. ---sigh--- Frank
fdu...@aol.com
source?
> Oh, that old thing again? That site is what you cite as evidence? You who
> are a scientist? C'mon Frank I expect better. First of all the sample of
> this site is self-selecting--people post to complain. There is no random
> sampling, and as such it does not represent the MB user experience. Next,
> they do not reveal their editorial policy--do all posts make it up to the
> site? Do they edit? What are their standards? Third it is obvious that the
> owner of the site has an ax to grind. It is a petition, Frank, not an
> accumulation of data.
>
Eric began this post complaining about prejuidce in the case of MB. He
is correct. He is obviously very prejudice in favor of MB in spite of
any facts, evidence or statements from owners. Eric, you are really
starting to bore me and I bet many others here with all this. You are
entitled to your opinion. Thats fine. You have given it. Let it rest
there--please. We are entitled to ours. We have given it. Thank
you. Frank
Charles Perry
actually an older Noblesse. Both are the old lacquer over metal pens. I
like them and have had no trouble. The Dunhill is actually the best writing
pen I own. As for the current production plastic Noblesse line...I am not
interested. After reading some of the posts on the MB complaint web site, I
am not sure I want any plastic MB pen. I prefer metal bodied pens anyway.
Of course I am relatively new to all of this. I have only owned my Dunhill
for a little over a year. I bought it used and with the exception of a
small scratch on the lacquer, it is perfect.
Charles Perry P.E.
Tim McNamara
> You are just pissed off that Montblanc markets more successfully
> than all the major pen companies, and in your opinion their products
> don't warrant the acclaim they receive among the hoi-polloi.
Why would this piss me off? It would piss me off if I was a competing
pen manufacturer. What pisses me off is that MB sells very expensive,
poor quality products- in essence, stealing from the customer. I've
been ripped off by them personally, as I will mention more fully
below.
> So you and other collectors heap scorn on Montblanc because you guys
> are the true connoisseurs, the inside guys, the GUYS IN THE KNOW. It
> allows you to feel superior in your knowledge. It allows you to be
> distinctive. It is classic collector behavior and it exists in every
> collector community. We all do it. Its fun. Why not just be honest
> about it?
I'm more of a pen accumulator than a collector. I have pens to write
with and I don't buy pens I can't or won't write with. I don't buy
mint pens because they're mint and in many cases there's a sense that
they *shouldn't* be written with (e.g., a mint Mandarin Duofold). The
pens I "collect" have taken a licking already, so I can use them daily
and not gasp in horror if I drop one.
> You accuse me of obstinacy when it is you who are obstinate.
Oh, the irony, Niles.
> Frank has to believe that there is a Montblanc conspiracy with
> pens being designed to self destruct.
According to Frank, there is some evidence (which he has cited) that
in fact the pens *are* designed to fail- specifically the ball point.
Many others have posted about their experiences regarding the
fragility of MB's "precious resin" which is some cases hasn't survived
a short drop out of a shirt pocket onto a carpeted floor while tying
one's shoes.
> Most people who buy Montblanc buy it because they want a nice
> pen.
In which case they'd be better off looking elsewhere.
> Many buy it because it is a symbol of status.
Bingo. And it is a symbol of status through marketing and strategic
pricing, not through quality. Not that this is uncommon- indeed it is
the very heart of capitalism.
> Some people (like me) who can pretty much afford any pen they want
> buy them because they like the pens! Imagine that! Those of us who
> are collectors avoid that popular brand because we use our
> collection of pens as a way of distinguishing ourselves and
> expressing ourselves and God forbid we should do what everyone else
> is doing. Look, Tim, it is not a criticism. It is human behavior. It
> exists among music and sports fans, among car nuts, among wine
> experts. (Chateau Lafite? Please it is sooooo overrated!) It is how
> enthusiast distinguish themselves. Can't we be honest about it?
You're the one being disingenuous about it, trying to psychoanalyze
people's behavior to rationalize your perception and discredit
others.
From your other posts to Frank, it sounds like *you* are pissed off
because you somehow think he impugned your honor by stating that "MB
ballpoints are designed to fail."
> MB is a good brand. If it weren't they would never sell as many pens
> as they do.
Successful sales are the definition of product quality?
> Advertising can get you to try a bad product ONCE. Bad products
> don't last. They don't become number one, or number two. Even good
> products that go bad don't last. Just ask Arthur Andersen. MB is a
> good product. It may not be a great product, it may not be the best
> product, but it certainly isn't a lousy product, not compared to the
> other players in the arena.
I own a 10-11 year old MB 146. It's crap despite multiple
adjustments- writes about 6 lines and then stops writing. I own a
late 80's all-metal Noblesse. It's marginal. I own a late 50's 121.
It's pretty good. I have the matching pencil for the 146, and had the
matching ballpoint and rollerball. I had to return my first
rollerball because it was broken *when it came out of the box, brand
friggin' new.* Not a mark on the box.
I've owned about $1000 worth of modern MB products. One of them
worked well- the pencil. The 121 also works well, but it is 40 years
old and the company was under different management then. In fact the
121 is one of my favorite pens. When I compare the quality of use and
construction of any of my Pelikans, or my Parker 51's, or my Sheaffer
Balances or Snorkels, or for that matter my Esterbrook, MB ends up
looking pretty crappy by comparison. Their pens do not work well for
their intended purpose (writing, for gosh sakes!) but they do work
well for generating a profit for the owners of MB.
> > There are *very real* issues with MB products, and those issues are in
> > fact the basis of the scorn many people feel towards Montblanc,
> > amplified by their arrogance and marketing strategy.
>
> I think there are some issues with the products namely with the 144
> FP and rollerball. I think MB is listening and addressing the
> problems. Arrogance? Show me the arrogance in their marketing
> materials!
Their arrogance is all over their marketing materials, their
boutiques, etc. It is abundantly evident. It is not unique and is
consistent with almost all other snob-appeal products.
> There are a lot of assumptions around here that get accepted as fact
> because they keep getting repeated, over and over by the same
> people. Let's have some evidence other than "I once sent them a pen
> and it came back scratchy," anecdotes.
Well, if you want to do statistical research, have at it. I have to
make a living and don't have time to do customer satisfaction analyses
and neither, I suspect, does anyone else in this newsgroup. So we are
stuck with the anecdotal data, for the most part. I certainly can't
afford to do the kind of destructive testing necessary to analyze the
design and construction quality of Montblanc pens. Besides, plenty of
destructive testing has already been done just by normal daily use.
> > That of course is why your point never gets acknowledged.
>
> And the fact that it doesn't will not stop me from making it. Isn't
> a spirited debate more fun anyway?
Depends on the day.
Burt Janz
>>Frank has to believe that there is a Montblanc conspiracy with
>>pens being designed to self destruct.
> According to Frank, there is some evidence (which he has cited) that
> in fact the pens *are* designed to fail- specifically the ball point.
> Many others have posted about their experiences regarding the
> fragility of MB's "precious resin" which is some cases hasn't survived
> a short drop out of a shirt pocket onto a carpeted floor while tying
> one's shoes.
------
I dropped a drinking glass the other day, and the darned thing broke as
soon as it hit the kitchen floor. One would think that the linoleum and
wood construction would have provided sufficient shock absorption to
prevent the glass from breaking.
For that matter, the glass itself must have been defective. I dropped a
plastic cup on that same floor, and it didn't break. It didn't even crack.
My glassware must be defective.
-------
MB has publicly stated that their "new precious resin formula" uses
*glass* to improve the shine and look.
MB pens thus made may, therefore, be a bit more sensitive to being
dropped than, say, a Bic... :-)
Whether this sensitivity is by design or simply a consequence of the
chemical composition of their resin is, IMHO, unimportant.
The fact that *glass* is used should at least make one question whether
the material itself *might*, just *might* be a bit more brittle...
Tetractys
> MB has publicly stated that their "new precious resin formula"
> uses *glass* to improve the shine and look.
>
> MB pens thus made may, therefore, be a bit more sensitive to
> being dropped than, say, a Bic... :-)
>
> Whether this sensitivity is by design or simply a consequence
> of the chemical composition of their resin is, IMHO,
> unimportant.
>
> The fact that *glass* is used should at least make one question
> whether the material itself *might*, just *might* be a bit more
> brittle...
The "glass" used in molding is usually short fiberglass fibers,
and they strengthen the resulting molded objects in terms of
tensile, impact and torsion resistance. I doubt MB added
these fibers to improve "shine and look," but didn't want
to admit that they added them to address the cracking issue.
It probably took them a while to find a reinforcement
material that didn't leave very visible flow marks in the
bodies and caps, since glass-reinforced materials almost
never have the clear polished sheen MB is famous for.
It's probably that beautiful surface sheen which has been
the bane of us pen owners for so long. It's hard to have
both that and a pen that won't crack when used. I'll
admit I likes the sheen, but then I'm a fairly shallow
fellow. I likes the gold on the nibs, too. Put a gold nib
on a high-sheen pen, and I'm a sucker. I just wish
they didn't crack and shatter. I also wish their nibs
didn't feel like writing with a nail dipped in ink, and
their rollerballs didn't feel like they were square, and
their ballpoints stuck out more than 1/16" from the
tip so I either have to hold it at a 90-degree angle
or scrape the paper. But they sure does look good
in my pocket, with that shiny snow-covered mountain
sticking out when I stop to talk to the sweater girl
over in Accounting.
so what
>MB is a good brand. If it weren't they would never sell as many pens as they
>do. Advertising can get you to try a bad product ONCE. Bad products don't
>last.
You ever heard of the number 1 selling car in the USA? It's called Ford. I
am tired of getting that Taurus repaired.
Of course bad products don't last. That is the lament of MB and Ford
customers.
And oh yeah, MB *gives* their pens to the grand poobahs of Ford and GM.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!
Enron gave their execs Waterman pens. At least Waterman will outlast Enron and
Arthur Anderson.
> don't get yer panties in a bunch
>>> because you heard once that somebody's MB fountain pen got a crack in it.>
Now fellas, take a tip from your Sister Satrap: buy your panties the right
size, and they don't get bunched up! They won't even get cracked up!
satrap
Hanes, your way
delete 1.
Satrap
I find delusions of grandeur to be absolutely true
Burt Janz
> Burt Janz wrote:
>>The fact that *glass* is used should at least make one question
>>whether the material itself *might*, just *might* be a bit more
>>brittle...
>
> The "glass" used in molding is usually short fiberglass fibers,
> and they strengthen the resulting molded objects in terms of
> tensile, impact and torsion resistance. I doubt MB added
> these fibers to improve "shine and look,"
Their words, not mine, in a previous issue of Pen World (I think...).
> but didn't want
> to admit that they added them to address the cracking issue.
> It probably took them a while to find a reinforcement
> material that didn't leave very visible flow marks in the
> bodies and caps, since glass-reinforced materials almost
> never have the clear polished sheen MB is famous for.
> It's probably that beautiful surface sheen which has been
> the bane of us pen owners for so long. It's hard to have
> both that and a pen that won't crack when used.
Now I'm confused: glass strengthens molded objects in terms of impact
resistance, but MB's impact resistance is lower than pens that *don't*
use glass in their chemistry... :-)
> I'll
> admit I likes the sheen, but then I'm a fairly shallow
> fellow. I likes the gold on the nibs, too. Put a gold nib
> on a high-sheen pen, and I'm a sucker. I just wish
> they didn't crack and shatter. I also wish their nibs
> didn't feel like writing with a nail dipped in ink, and
> their rollerballs didn't feel like they were square, and
> their ballpoints stuck out more than 1/16" from the
> tip so I either have to hold it at a 90-degree angle
> or scrape the paper. But they sure does look good
> in my pocket, with that shiny snow-covered mountain
> sticking out when I stop to talk to the sweater girl
> over in Accounting.
(referring to a previous thread, now...)
You *SNOB*!!! :-) :-) :-)
Tetractys
> Now I'm confused: glass strengthens molded
> objects in terms of impact resistance, but MB's
> impact resistance is lower than pens that *don't*
> use glass in their chemistry... :-)
Lower before adding the "glass," which is
actually, I'm guessing, fiberglass. Fiberglass
reinforced molding resins are referred to as
"glass-reinforced," just as mineral fiber
reinforced molding resins are designated
"mineral-reinforced." Fiberglass doesn't
shatter the way the drinking glass in your
example does, or 20,000 bass fishermen
would drown every year. Now maybe
someone could design a bass boat with
a beautiful highly-polished black sheen,
with a gold motor housing and a figurehead
of Mount Fuji on the bow!
> (referring to a previous thread, now...)
>
> You *SNOB*!!! :-) :-) :-)
Smile when you say that, Pardner.
Oh, I see, you are smiling ... and smiling ...
Burt Janz
> Burt Janz wrote:
>
> actually, I'm guessing, fiberglass. Fiberglass
> reinforced molding resins are referred to as
> "glass-reinforced," just as mineral fiber
> reinforced molding resins are designated
> "mineral-reinforced." Fiberglass doesn't
> shatter the way the drinking glass in your
> example does, or 20,000 bass fishermen
> would drown every year. Now maybe
> someone could design a bass boat with
> a beautiful highly-polished black sheen,
> with a gold motor housing and a figurehead
> of Mount Fuji on the bow!
Fiberglass for boats *must* be a different story than whatever glass is
used by MB in its pens - I know: I own a boat (yes, a hole in the water
you throw money into :-) ) And, yes, I have spent some weekends doing
"glassing" on the boat to fill a hole left behind by the removal of a
piece of equipment, or to provide a solid "bedding" for a backplate for
a cleat, or some other such nonsense.
The boat's hull is *designed* to absorb a certain amount of stress with
a certain amount of flex, but the design takes into account fiberglass
"mats" which have been impregnated with resin. In this case, the resin
provides the "strength" (it's exceptionally brittle), and the fiberglass
provides the "flexibility" (it's exceptionally flexible).
If MB had used fiberglass and resin the same way, their pens would
absorb a *heckuva* lot of stress... which is why I don't think that MB
uses fiberglass.
And, no my boat doesn't have any Maki-e on the bow... :-D
Tetractys
<....>
> The boat's hull is *designed* to absorb a
> certain amount of stress with a certain amount
> of flex, but the design takes into account fiberglass
> "mats" which have been impregnated with resin.
> In this case, the resin provides the "strength"
> (it's exceptionally brittle), and the fiberglass
> provides the "flexibility" (it's exceptionally flexible).
>
> If MB had used fiberglass and resin the same way,
> their pens would absorb a *heckuva* lot of stress...
> which is why I don't think that MB uses fiberglass....
If MB is using fiberglass-reinforced resin now, it
would be randomly-oriented fibers, not a mat.
This would give the finished material "toughness,"
which is a combination of impact, tensile and torsion
strength. "Strength" alone, without a modifier, is
usually not used to described resin in any form, at
least from an engineering POV. Does anyone know,
BTW, what changes, if any MB has made recently
to their resin formulation? I've been talking out of
my hat based on your saying they added "glass"
to their formula to add "shine and look." Is there a
press release or brochure or something where they
discuss this? I'd be interested to read the dope.
That is to say, I'd like to see it.
Burt Janz
> "Strength" alone, without a modifier, is
> usually not used to described resin in any form, at
> least from an engineering POV.
You're absolutely right. I was using the wrong terms, but, then, this
is an informal discussion... and *way* off topic by this point :-)
By "strength", I meant that the fiberglass mat *by itself* would fall
apart on its own without something to hold it in place, and that the
resin itself would crack and disintegrate without being reinforced somehow.
Kinda like concrete and rebars: the rebars *by themselves* are not
really useful, and concrete tends to crack and disintegrate when shocked
(no, not electrically). Put 'em together, and you have a column that
can withstand pretty severe shaking.
Synergy in action, so to speak...
\burt
(neither a fiberglass nor concrete engineer, but who does understand the
basic principles)
Tetractys
> ... this is an informal discussion...
But a good one!
> ... and *way* off topic by this point :-)
I beg to differ. If MB has changed their
"precious resin" formula (which means
really that they order a different grade
from their supplier), I'm sure pen lovers
would be eager to hear the details.
> Kinda like concrete and rebars...
*Exactly* like that, except imagine a
bunch of randomly-oriented rebar
pieces a few inches long.
--
Dave Vaughan
Burt Janz
> Burt Janz wrote:
>
>
>>... this is an informal discussion...
>
>
> But a good one!
>
>
> *Exactly* like that, except imagine a
> bunch of randomly-oriented rebar
> pieces a few inches long.
From what I understand about rebar *and* fiberglass, that arrangement
would be relatively useless, from a reinforcement point of view.
This much I *know*: an attempt was made to make boat hulls from
nonlinear "blown in" fiberglass, instead of using fiberglass cloth
("mats"). The technique resulted in hulls which were capable of *much
less* stress than those that used mats. I seem to remember Bayline
(maybe it was Chaparral) adopting that technique many years ago for it's
smaller (18' and under) hulls, and abandoning it a few years later.
Apparently, that construction seems to encourage blistering...
Whenever I've seen concrete used in places where it will be used under
stress (as in overpass columns, or major supports in a new building),
the rebar seems to always be either vertically or horizontally aligned
(sometimes both at the same time). I don't remember ever seeing
concrete being mixed with pieces of rebar in it, and then being poured
into a mold.
So, would the "randomly-oriented rebar pieces a few inches long" really
provide reinforcement in that kind of construction? I wouldn't think
so... but I could be wrong.
That being said, when my boat hull is made, I want it made from multiple
layers of mats... and I want my overpasses *very well* reinforced... :-)
\burt
PENMART01
<tetr...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>> Kinda like concrete and rebars...
>
>*Exactly* like that, except imagine a
>bunch of randomly-oriented rebar
>pieces a few inches long.
That concept is in fact a common method for reinforcing cement... all concrete
incorporates aggregates. from fine bank run sand to large gravel. Mont Blanc
may very well have added a fine ground glass aggregate to it's resin... same as
many roadways of late have been paved with asphalt which contains ground glass,
which greatly increases load bearing and wearability factors. What do you
think happens with those depost bottles that get crushed by the returns
machine, paving companys snap it up. Many heavy use roadways which would cause
great inconvenience during repairs, such as bridges and tunnels, are paved with
a conglomerate of asphalt, ground glass, and also ground up discarded tires.
So, clean out the back our your pick-up and send Mont Blanc all your empty beer
bottles and used condoms.
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Tetractys
> From what I understand about rebar
> *and* fiberglass, that arrangement
> [random arrangement of short pieces]
> would be relatively useless, from a
> reinforcement point of view.
>
> <....>
> I don't remember ever seeing concrete
> being mixed with pieces of rebar in it,
> and then being poured into a mold.
>
> So, would the "randomly-oriented rebar
> pieces a few inches long" really provide
> reinforcement in that kind of construction?
Well, a little maybe, but I was being glib
and agreeable. Polymer resins are actually
very long chains of linked and cross-linked
molecules, which concrete is not. A bunch
of short linear strands of a high-tensile-strength
material like glass fiber will be encased by the
polymer molecules, effectively adding the
tensile strength of the glass fibers to the molded
object. In concrete, there is no connection within
the material except as provided by reinforcing
agents like rebar and aggregate and the cohesion
of the material itself.
As for the boat example, boats I believe are
usually molded from thermosetting resins as opposed
to thermoplastic materials. Thermosetting materials,
IIRC, have a much lower impact resistance without
reinforcement, and will tend to shatter. Thus the
need for fiberglass mats instead of random fibers.
einv
> So, clean out the back our your pick-up and send Mont Blanc all your empty beer
> bottles and used condoms.
and have them come up with a 'redneck LE'?
Burt Janz
> As for the boat example, boats I believe are
> usually molded from thermosetting resins as opposed
> to thermoplastic materials. Thermosetting materials,
> IIRC, have a much lower impact resistance without
> reinforcement, and will tend to shatter. Thus the
> need for fiberglass mats instead of random fibers.
Fiberglass resin isn't thermoplastic - it does generate heat while curing.
I wonder if MB pens generate heat when they're curing. 'Course, that
assumes that they're cured *before* they get sick :-) :-)
\burt
(groaning... :-D)
PENMART01
<ei...@physics.utexas.edu> writes:
Crayola's "Giant Bubba"
Eric Diamond
McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> I'm more of a pen accumulator than a collector.
Whatever.
> According to Frank, there is some evidence (which he has cited) that
> in fact the pens *are* designed to fail- specifically the ball point.
> Many others have posted about their experiences regarding the
> fragility of MB's "precious resin" which is some cases hasn't survived
> a short drop out of a shirt pocket onto a carpeted floor while tying
> one's shoes.
Other's experiences I think are valid and should be discussed. I have seen
Frank produce no real evidence other than "yeah I talked to a couple of MB
reps who admitted that their pens were designed to fail." Not enough for me
to constitute an endorsement of a position by MB. Sorry.
> Bingo. And it is a symbol of status through marketing and strategic
> pricing, not through quality. Not that this is uncommon- indeed it is
> the very heart of capitalism.
What status symbol isn't? The reason they are status symbols is because they
are hard to get or expensive.
> From your other posts to Frank, it sounds like *you* are pissed off
> because you somehow think he impugned your honor by stating that "MB
> ballpoints are designed to fail."
Nah, I was pissed because he makes an assertion with no evidence to back it
up, and then accuses me of refusing to see or acknowledge reality simply
because I refuse to accept his assertion.
>> MB is a good brand. If it weren't they would never sell as many pens
>> as they do.
>
> Successful sales are the definition of product quality?
Yup. Bad products don't stay on the market, no matter how hard they are
marketed. Nobody puts a gun to anyone's head and says buy a Montblanc.
Nobody loses their job because they do not use a Montblanc (except perhaps
for MB boutique employees). People buy them because they want them. If they
sucked as bad as you say, word would get around pretty quick and nobody
would buy them anymore. That is how capitalism works, right?
>> Advertising can get you to try a bad product ONCE. Bad products
>> don't last. They don't become number one, or number two. Even good
>> products that go bad don't last. Just ask Arthur Andersen. MB is a
>> good product. It may not be a great product, it may not be the best
>> product, but it certainly isn't a lousy product, not compared to the
>> other players in the arena.
>
> I own a 10-11 year old MB 146. It's crap despite multiple
> adjustments- writes about 6 lines and then stops writing. I own a
> late 80's all-metal Noblesse. It's marginal. I own a late 50's 121.
> It's pretty good. I have the matching pencil for the 146, and had the
> matching ballpoint and rollerball. I had to return my first
> rollerball because it was broken *when it came out of the box, brand
> friggin' new.* Not a mark on the box.
I would point out that MB is now under different management than the late
80's when MB had quality control problems. That was my original point. YES,
they've had problems, but YES, they have done major improvement to the build
quality of their pens. Why is that so hard to accept?
> When I compare the quality of use and
> construction of any of my Pelikans, or my Parker 51's, or my Sheaffer
> Balances or Snorkels, or for that matter my Esterbrook, MB ends up
> looking pretty crappy by comparison.
Are you comparing late 80's MB to Parker 51's? When I compare my modern
Montblanc ballpoint pen to my modern Pelikan ballpoint pen I find the MB has
a slight edge in build quality.
> Their pens do not work well for
> their intended purpose (writing, for gosh sakes!) but they do work
> well for generating a profit for the owners of MB.
>
For you.
> Their arrogance is all over their marketing materials, their
> boutiques, etc. It is abundantly evident. It is not unique and is
> consistent with almost all other snob-appeal products.
Show me. Produce some kind of artifact by MB that smacks of arrogance. Show
me where they make claims that they cannot back up. Perhaps you don't like
their aesthetic choices? Fine then say so.
> Well, if you want to do statistical research, have at it. I have to
> make a living and don't have time to do customer satisfaction analyses
> and neither, I suspect, does anyone else in this newsgroup.
That is fine, but I make no general claims about MB or any their pens. I
speak for myself and my experience only. Others feel the need to "hold
court" and pontificate and it is with them that I take exception.
Eric Diamond
<bj...@bit-net.com> wrote:
> MB has publicly stated that their "new precious resin formula" uses
> *glass* to improve the shine and look.
>
> MB pens thus made may, therefore, be a bit more sensitive to being
> dropped than, say, a Bic... :-)
>
> Whether this sensitivity is by design or simply a consequence of the
> chemical composition of their resin is, IMHO, unimportant.
>
> The fact that *glass* is used should at least make one question whether
> the material itself *might*, just *might* be a bit more brittle...
>
> \burt
It might. And their resin might be more brittle than a more flexible vegetal
resin. The MB pen however resists scratching and has a nice feel to it.
There is always trade-offs in materials. I think MB's mistake a few years
ago is that they did not take this trade-off in material into account when
they changed the formula of their resin. If you are going to use a more
brittle material you must structurally strengthen it to compensate. Thin
plastic walls + brittle plastic = cracks. They probably used the same
tooling they used when they were still using cellulose. They have since
altered the build of their pens, at least the ones I have.
john cline ii
"Eric Diamond" wrote in part:
> "Tim McNamara" wrote:
SNIP
> I would point out that MB is now under different management than the
late
> 80's when MB had quality control problems. That was my original
point. YES,
> they've had problems, but YES, they have done major improvement to
the build
> quality of their pens. Why is that so hard to accept?
Because YOU are making an assertion with no real evidence to back it
up. See your comment about Frank above. If it is not okay for Frank
to do so, then how is it for you? Show us PROOF that MB has improved
their products.
SNIP
> That is fine, but I make no general claims about MB or any their
pens.
HUH? I thought you said they had improved their products?
> I
> speak for myself and my experience only. Others feel the need to
"hold
> court" and pontificate and it is with them that I take exception.
And what you have been doing here is not holding court and
pontificating? I thought that was what we did here! A pontificating
and holding court newsgroup! :)
john cline ii, seeking first to understand...
john cline ii
"so what" wrote:
>
> >MB is a good brand. If it weren't they would never sell as many pens
as they
> >do. Advertising can get you to try a bad product ONCE. Bad products
don't
> >last.
>
> You ever heard of the number 1 selling car in the USA? It's called
Ford. I
> am tired of getting that Taurus repaired.
Better stick to pens, Ms. Orangeness! That hasn't been true for more
than five years! To quote the esteemed expert of autos, Mr. Mateja in
today's Chicago Tribune:
***But this is now, and time to pay homage to the last of the current
breed [of the Honda Accord], the vehicle that claimed the title of
best-selling car in the industry for the 2001 calendar year (414,718
units), taking the crown away from Toyota Camry (390,449), which held
the honor since 1996.****
From
http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/columnists/chi-0203
230264mar24.column
>
> Of course bad products don't last. That is the lament of MB and Ford
> customers.
Is MB Mercedes Benz? :) Recently Mercedes has been scoring VERY low
in quality surveys.
> Now fellas, take a tip from your Sister Satrap: buy your panties the
right
> size, and they don't get bunched up! They won't even get cracked up!
Unless you drop them too quickly!
john cline ii, shyly or slyly, I forget which
Eric Diamond
"john cline ii" <jwciit...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Because YOU are making an assertion with no real evidence to back it
> up. See your comment about Frank above. If it is not okay for Frank
> to do so, then how is it for you? Show us PROOF that MB has improved
> their products.
>
> HUH? I thought you said they had improved their products?
Proof? Sure thing.
I have in my possession 2 Montblanc 164 ballpoint pens. One is older than
the other. The older one has a barrel thickness of 0.85mm, (measurement
conducted with an all steel electronic calipers).the newer pen has a barrel
wall thickness of 2.42mm, with its supporting internal sleeve (also made of
resin). Clearly the barrel thickness has been improved, more than doubled,
leading to greater strength and crack resistance. May not be perfect, (time
will tell) but it is clearly different and clearly improved. The sleeve also
butts up flush with the twisting mechanism so it takes some of the torque
stress from the threads holding the pen together and instead distributes the
force more evenly down the barrel of the pen.
I am in the midst of preparing for a move. As soon as our move is complete
and we are unpacked I will try to take pictures describing the differences.
fdu...@aol.com
> I have in my possession 2 Montblanc 164 ballpoint pens. One is older than
> the other. The older one has a barrel thickness of 0.85mm, (measurement
> conducted with an all steel electronic calipers).the newer pen has a barrel
> wall thickness of 2.42mm, with its supporting internal sleeve (also made of
> resin). Clearly the barrel thickness has been improved, more than doubled,
> leading to greater strength and crack resistance. May not be perfect, (time
> will tell) but it is clearly different and clearly improved. The sleeve also
> butts up flush with the twisting mechanism so it takes some of the torque
> stress from the threads holding the pen together and instead distributes the
> force more evenly down the barrel of the pen.
>
Ohh so you have TWO pens. You call this solid scientific proof that MB
has improved the crack reistance of all their pens being sold everywhere
today??? Even though dozens of brand new still boxed cracked MBs are
easily found at most pen shows. (I saw several at LA last month, mint
in the box cracked and I didn't look very hard either.) What you are
seeing could be nothing more than a production change. Thicker resin
does not have to mean it is less crack prone due to greater unvielding
mass. A chemical change is needed in the resin itself to make it less
brittle. Best example, the MB 149 is very crack prone but is made out
of thicker resin than the smaller BPs. No I haven't measured it, but its
quite obviously thicker yet the 149, due to its greater mass crackes
just as easy, perhaps even easier. Eric--you are fighting windmills in
the Land Of LaMancha. Like Don Quixote I'm sure you belive what you are
doing, but I think to the most of the rest of the world you look as
silly as he did. Sorry. :)
If and when I see eveidence that MB has really improved things I'd be
the first to state so. I haven seen nothing yet, and what you are
posting even if correct, also proves nothing. Lets test drop a few new
MBs on the floor. Well, thats mroe or less what many frustrated MB
owners have been doing for years, isn't it??? Better proof than saying
hey one pen has thicker resin than another. Frank
Sabine & Johan
> Lets test drop a few new
> MBs on the floor. Well, thats mroe or less what many frustrated MB
> owners have been doing for years, isn't it??? Better proof than saying
> hey one pen has thicker resin than another. Frank
I *don't* want to get into this discussion, because I'm not knowledgeable
about modern MB pen ... but does anyone still know the Scaupaug test? Hint,
it involves a car :-)
Johan
fdu...@aol.com
>
> I *don't* want to get into this discussion, because I'm not knowledgeable
> about modern MB pen ... but does anyone still know the Scaupaug test? Hint,
> it involves a car :-)
Yup--for the uninformed. He has run over several 1930s Sheaffers with no
damage to them at all except minor scuff marks. The MBs he has run over
at the same time were totally vaporized into mere powder. True actual
test results. Frank
> Johan
john cline ii
Am I dreaming it, or did not Mr. Levenger do the same to a Rotring some
years back? (better not try THAT with a True Writer! :)
john cline ii who may be hallucinating
Tim McNamara
That's an expensive test! If you pen testers really want to lighten
your burden of money, let me know and I'll give an address where you
can mail it! ;-)
I wonder what would happen if one dropped one of the new MB's out of
an airplane, like Parker did with the Duofold.
Tim McNamara
> > Yup--for the uninformed. He has run over several 1930s Sheaffers
> > with no damage to them at all except minor scuff marks. The MBs
> > he has run over at the same time were totally vaporized into mere
> > powder. True actual test results. Frank
>
> Am I dreaming it, or did not Mr. Levenger do the same to a Rotring
> some years back? (better not try THAT with a True Writer! :)
You could run a Humvee over a Rotring 600 and the Humvee would lose.
Eric Diamond
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote:
> Ohh so you have TWO pens. You call this solid scientific proof that MB
> has improved the crack reistance of all their pens being sold everywhere
> today???
Frank READ before you type, please. My example with my two pens show
qualitative DESIGN changes, and are not representative of a QUANTITATIVE
statistical analysis. I'm sure you know the difference
Even though dozens of brand new still boxed cracked MBs are
> easily found at most pen shows. (I saw several at LA last month, mint
> in the box cracked and I didn't look very hard either.) What you are
> seeing could be nothing more than a production change. Thicker resin
> does not have to mean it is less crack prone due to greater unvielding
> mass.
But a reinforcing sleeve inside the pen that absorbs the impact of the
torque might protect the outer resin. I am saying the design is different. I
surmise that it is better. I stand by my statements and observations. You
may compare me to don Quixote all you like, but I see what I see.
>
> If and when I see eveidence that MB has really improved things I'd be
> the first to state so.
Apparently you are dismissive of evidence when it is presented.
fdu...@aol.com
> Frank READ before you type, please. My example with my two pens show
> qualitative DESIGN changes, and are not representative of a QUANTITATIVE
> statistical analysis. I'm sure you know the difference
>
> But a reinforcing sleeve inside the pen that absorbs the impact of the
> torque might protect the outer resin. I am saying the design is different. I
> surmise that it is better. I stand by my statements and observations. You
> may compare me to don Quixote all you like, but I see what I see.
Ohh, You like what you see and you SURMISE it may be better. ..and it
MIGHT protect the outer resin? Thats some evidence. Really scientific
proof. LOL By your own admission you haven't even looked at the most
famous MB pen--the 149.
> Apparently you are dismissive of evidence when it is presented.
As you have dismissed the evidence of literally 1000s of MB owners
(including myself) who have told of their cracked MB pens here, on other
boards and web sites, and in person at every pen show. Obviously you
think your own personal lone "evidence" is more important and should be
given more weight than all the others combined. Evidence is not weighed
like that. At least not in any civilized country. Sorry. Frank
so what
corrections accepted, jcii!
>> Now fellas, take a tip from your Sister Satrap: buy your panties the
>right
>> size, and they don't get bunched up! They won't even get cracked up!
>
>Unless you drop them too quickly!
>
>
don't buy the ones made of precious rayon!
satrap
remaining innocent
delete 1.
Satrap
I find delusions of grandeur to be absolutely true
Ggliozzo
hardly used my Sheaffer Balance and never dropped it, not even on a carpet and
it is cracked. This is the second problem with this pen over a short period of
time.
What is your experience with Sheaffer? Should I just sell this baby?
Thanks
Gene
Eric Diamond
<fdu...@aol.com> wrote:
> Eric Diamond wrote:
>
>> Frank READ before you type, please. My example with my two pens show
>> qualitative DESIGN changes, and are not representative of a QUANTITATIVE
>> statistical analysis. I'm sure you know the difference
>>
>> But a reinforcing sleeve inside the pen that absorbs the impact of the
>> torque might protect the outer resin. I am saying the design is different. I
>> surmise that it is better. I stand by my statements and observations. You
>> may compare me to don Quixote all you like, but I see what I see.
>
> Ohh, You like what you see and you SURMISE it may be better. ..and it
> MIGHT protect the outer resin? Thats some evidence. Really scientific
> proof. LOL By your own admission you haven't even looked at the most
> famous MB pen--the 149.
Yup. And I've said it time and time again. I do not own a 149. Or a 146. I
have a Chopin. I do not make any claims or observations about the 149 or
146. Or 147. Or any limited edition other than the Proust FP and ballpoint
(which I have). Yes. I like what I see and I surmise that MB did it for a
reason and yes it is better. I find it hard to believe that someone
accidentally dropped a perfectly fitting reinforcing sleeve into their 164
ballpoint and by a fluke it got past the inspectors who must insure that the
MB pens crack after 1.3 years. Sorry.
> As you have dismissed the evidence of literally 1000s of MB owners
> (including myself) who have told of their cracked MB pens here, on other
> boards and web sites, and in person at every pen show.
If I had evidence of literally thousands, I might or might not dismiss it. I
have seen lots of anecdotal evidence, not of which I dismiss, and your
experience, Frank which as bizarre as some might find it, I don't dismiss
either. But I also have my experience, too. And I can't understand why you
must compulsively dismiss mine, and the other people who post here who like
and use Montblanc products.
> Obviously you
> think your own personal lone "evidence" is more important and should be
> given more weight than all the others combined. Evidence is not weighed
> like that. At least not in any civilized country.
Is it a question of civilization now? Is clinging to my own experience as a
basis for my own thought actually barbaric? Gosh. My evidence, thoough lone
is easily verifiable. Next time I make it to Michigan avenue I will ask the
nice folks at MB if I can look at a few samples of their pens to see if the
sleve is present. It may not be scientific, but at least I will be able to
verify that my pen is not a fluke, accident prototype or plot to drive you
crazy ;).
Sorry. Frank
fdu...@aol.com
If you bought it new return it to Sheaffer for a free replacement.
Sheaffer did have some cracking problems in the early production of the
new Balance line but appears to have solved the problem lately. If you
want to sell it fine--but how much do you think someone will pay for a
cracked version?? Frank
BLandolf
news:20020325230226...@mb-ci.aol.com...
Hi Gene --- The modern Balance line (not the LE), especially the
marbled version with FeatherTouch nib, was a disaster. I had several
and found them to be very poorly finished (e.g., chips and hairlines
around the cap lip, surfaces poorly polished or marred, etc.) and
prone to form cracks spontaneously. Nib and feed problems on those
pens also are legendary (dozens of complaints on the Zoss list and
other newsgroups/listservs). Several of mine made more than one trip
back to Ft. Madison. It shouldn't surprise you that so many people
know the head of Sheaffer's Ft. Madison repair department by name:
Sidney Brown. To be fair, she's very nice and will do her best to see
that your pen is fixed/replaced and sent back to you very quickly. I
would definitely send the pen back for repair/replacement, but then
I'd consider selling it. Unfortunately, they're selling way under
original street prices. There were far fewer complaints re: the
solid-color pens.
Addresses for Sheaffer repair depts. in the U.S., Canada, and England
can be found here:
http://www.sheaffer.com/talktous/index.shtml
Good luck!
Bernadette
Ggliozzo
It appears to me that Sheaffer is just another one of those pen companies that
can't get it's quality control or production to make a quality product. But
then again which one of the pen companies can?
fdu...@aol.com
True enough to a great extent. No pen company on earth really does when
compared to what was done 50-75 or more years ago. Case in point, the
automobile run over Sheaffers from the 30's, the Duofolds droped from
airplains and 20 story buildings in the 1920s, etc. No plastic pen
made today can survive that. A few Pekilans are known to self
destruct--the original Levels often self crack in their section. Mine
never left my desk yet developed crack after crack in the section
resulting in leaks. But in most cases the more serious problems are in
one pen series, the mabeled Sheaffer balances, the original Level, etc.
Usually in a year or two the companies find out about the problem and
fix it. Thats no excuse for the sloppy don't give a damn lack of
testing that allowed the problem to exist in the first place, but its
better than selling pens for 15 years that are known to crack.
The reissued Sheaffer balance was a total disaster. I spent hours
talking with Sheaffer reps about its problems. Among other things
telling them in no uncertain terms what a disgrace to the Sheaffer name
that pen was. Even the design was wrong. The cheaper "Featertouch"
name nib was used in the more expensive pens and the more expensive
"Lifetime" name nibs in the cheaper pens. Duh???? Of course the
cheaper Lifetime nibs were 14kt and for the most part wrote far better
than the more expensive (although cheaper named) 18kt nibs. However
once I was really assured by several sources the problems (I don't think
they cared about the nib names) were corrected I returned my only "new"
balance. An Aspen which was an Ass of a pen in terms of skips and
terrible finish. Well, I didn't return it, because Sheaffer knows me
and may (or may not) have been more careful. I had a totally unknown
friend return it. The pen that came back was as perfect a new pen as is
made anywhere today IMHO. Its really the best writing 18KT nib pen I've
veer seen. Maybe that was pure luck, but it does show they have or can
solve the problems on occasions. On the other hand like all newer
pens the quality still isn't up to the old standard in terms of solid
build and long lasting trim, but again, no pens made on earth today
are. Frank
Wendy A. Shaffer
"john cline ii" <jwciit...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Am I dreaming it, or did not Mr. Levenger do the same to a Rotring some
> years back? (better not try THAT with a True Writer! :)
>
> john cline ii who may be hallucinating
>
If I recall correctly, Steve at Levenger ran over a set of Lamy Safari
pens with a Volvo a few years back. They survived with minor scratches.
---wendy
Sabine & Johan
"Wendy A. Shaffer" <wsha...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> schreef in bericht
news:wshaffer-7E6782...@agate.berkeley.edu...
He would never had risked his Volvo by driving over a rotring 600 :-)
Johan