Montblanc query
Joel Ricker
have learned quite alot about fine writing instruments. Before I started my
idea of a nice pen was these steel barrel Bics you would find in the
stationary section of grocery stores that retailed for $10.99. I had heard
of Cross but to me it was just a pen you got from people for graduation
presents.
Not too long after starting, I quickly got the collecting bug and learned
all I could about pens, for myself and to answer peoples questions better.
The one situation I can't seem to find out about is the difference between
the Mont Blanc pens we sell and the Mont Blanc pens that you can find in
office supply stores like Staples and Office Max. Those pens, while
considerably cheaper than the retail prices we sell them for, but they do
not come with a serial number and are not warrantied by Mont Blanc USA.
Mont Blanc USA says that these are not authorized retailers.
I'm reminded of this recently when a customer brought in a Mont Blanc
pen that her husband bought her for Christmas. She wanted to get it
engraved and so we sent it on to Mont Blanc. We didn't notice the lack of
serial number and so it came back. Mont Blanc would be willing to sell a
new cap with the proper serial number for about $80.00 (of course).
I'm told that those pens come from the German grey market, which doesn't
explain a whole lot. They couldn't be stolen and any explanation we can
come up with just doesn't make sense. Sometimes conversations with
customers go something like this:
Them: How much are your Mont Blanc pens?
Me: $175.00 for the Rollerball or Ballpoint.
Them: But they sell them at Staples for $90.00
Me: But those aren't from an authorized retailer. They don't come with any
warranty.
Them: So those aren't Mont Blancs? They're fakes?
Me: Um.. no not really.
Them: So why would I buy a Mont Blanc here when I can buy it from Staples
Me: Well it comes with a warranty.
Them: So what warranty do these Mont Blancs come with?
Me: a one year warranty (actually they recently upped it to two year).
Them: and that covers everything?
Me: Well only for defective parts. Otherwise there is a service fee
($25.00) plus parts.
Obviously by then this person is not impressed.
Anyhow, I really have not ever gotten a straight answer about the
difference between these and those. Can anybody help fill me in?
-J
--
FDubiel
>difference between these and those. Can anybody help fill me in?
First of all the MB rollerball costs LESS than 50cents to make, same with the
BP. ALL BPs MUST break if used within 3 years. The twisting action MUST
weaken and break the plastic. Thats aside, grey market is just that--pens
purchased outside of MB normal retail policy. For example you could sell 100s
of MBs at 5% above wholesale to Staples and make a lot of money. MB won't let
you, but if they don't catch you its fine. That is grey market. The pens come
at just slightly above wholesale from any retailer anywhere. Also closeouts
and dealers just damn sick of MBs. MB with their policy of setting prices
absurdly high hates this, and has shut off many retailers for doing the above,
but its a free country. At least until the MB police catch you. Frank
Tim McNamara
"Joel Ricker" <joe...@dragonat.net> wrote:
> The one situation I can't seem to find out about is the difference between
> the Mont Blanc pens we sell and the Mont Blanc pens that you can find in
> office supply stores like Staples and Office Max. Those pens, while
> considerably cheaper than the retail prices we sell them for, but they do
> not come with a serial number and are not warrantied by Mont Blanc USA.
> Mont Blanc USA says that these are not authorized retailers.
Errr, the Mont Blanc I bought through an authorized dealer did not have a
serial number. The one I bought at Office Max did, another did not, and
yet a third did. MB is inconsistent in this regard. Both came with
exactly the same paperwork, warranty cards, etc.
The basic issue is that Mont Blanc pens are absurdly overpriced, and they
attempt to artificially maintain this high price for reasons only they
can truly understand.
On top of that, many people think they are mechanically unreliable pens
that tend to write poorly. That was not my experience, they were quite
reliable and wrote very well indeed.
einv
> The basic issue is that Mont Blanc pens are absurdly overpriced, and they
> attempt to artificially maintain this high price for reasons only they
> can truly understand.
snob appeal, that's why! recently, in one of my rare mall rat moods, i went to
a leather bag store and several jewelry stores to see what they have. the way
the thinking goes is: if you get such and such leather, or a gold wrist watch,
or a diamond ring, then it is obvious that you ought also to get the best in
pens,
namely MB.
in fact, this is what a scented, gaudily appointed salesperson told me.
well, and perhaps this is what those strutting snobs actually believe!
Joel Ricker
news:timmcn-665D58....@news.onvoy.net...
> In article <5Xgn6.3040$P.8...@news1.atl>,
> "Joel Ricker" <joe...@dragonat.net> wrote:
>
> > The one situation I can't seem to find out about is the difference
between
> > the Mont Blanc pens we sell and the Mont Blanc pens that you can
find in
> > office supply stores like Staples and Office Max. Those pens, while
> > considerably cheaper than the retail prices we sell them for, but
they do
> > not come with a serial number and are not warrantied by Mont Blanc
USA.
> > Mont Blanc USA says that these are not authorized retailers.
>
> Errr, the Mont Blanc I bought through an authorized dealer did not
have a
> serial number. The one I bought at Office Max did, another did not,
and
> yet a third did. MB is inconsistent in this regard. Both came with
> exactly the same paperwork, warranty cards, etc.
Well almost every Mont Blanc pen that I've sold has come with the serial
number. We always fill out the warranty information on the card so
thats how I'm sure. A few of the early Bohemes didn't but now they seem
to have them now. The Generations line doesn't either. But the
Meisterstruck line has always had them since I've been working.
> The basic issue is that Mont Blanc pens are absurdly overpriced, and
they
> attempt to artificially maintain this high price for reasons only they
> can truly understand.
>
> On top of that, many people think they are mechanically unreliable
pens
> that tend to write poorly. That was not my experience, they were
quite
> reliable and wrote very well indeed.
Oh I agree completely. We wouldn't sell them if we could get away with
it. Not only is the problem with the quality but dealing with Montblanc
is such a hassle. The sales rep that is supposed to help us is
non-existent. And last year they decided to drop our profit 10%. I'm
not at liberty to say what we make on each pen, I'm sure some of you
know. But it's the same from every pen company: Cross, Waterman, and
used to be Montblanc until they decided they wanted to make more money.
Then a couple of days ago the rep did finally show up and came to inform
us that Montblanc has decided to drop about a hundred small accounts
[Long Dramatic Pause].... but not us (thought my boss was going to have
a stroke). One big pain in the ass. But people demand them, believe
that they have to have a Montblanc to be snobbish so we sell them like
Bic pens.
Though one saving grace -- I must admit that the Mont Blanc stainless
steel rollerball is a damn pretty pen. The only reason I don't own one
is because it's grossly overpriced. I've seen other pens with similiar
but they're generally silver plate but I don't have the patience to keep
up with the polishing.
Well enough ranting for one day -- I can do this all night. I've got
plenty of anti-montblanc stories but I'll save them for another day..
Thanks
J
Tim McNamara
einv <ei...@physics.utexas.edu> wrote:
Hopefully I don't fall into the "strutting snobs" category as an MB
owner. ;-)
Here's what was behind my thought:
Let's say it costs MB $75 to make a Meisterstuck 146 (that's probably a
higher estimate than Frank Dubiel would give, and he'd probably be much
more accurate). They sell them through snob outlets at, what, $350 list
price. That's $275 profit (well, I am ignoring the distributor, the
money the store keeps, etc for the sake of simplicity). Let's say they
sell 5,000 pens a year for gross sales of $1,750,000 and net profits of
$1,375,000.
If they allowed them to be sold competitively and the market bore an
average price of $250 but they sold 10,000 pens at that price, then their
net sales would be $2,500,000 (an increase of $750,000 or 43%) and net
profits of 1,750,000 (an increase of $375,000 or or 27%). From a
bottom-line business perspective, MB's policy makes little sense and
therefore I think there must be a different reason than dollars and cents
behind their policy. Why give up market share and profitability
otherwise?
Is maintaining snob appeal more important than money to Mont Blanc?
einv
> If they allowed them to be sold competitively and the market bore an
> average price of $250 but they sold 10,000 pens at that price, then their
> net sales would be $2,500,000 (an increase of $750,000 or 43%) and net
> profits of 1,750,000 (an increase of $375,000 or or 27%). From a
> bottom-line business perspective, MB's policy makes little sense and
> therefore I think there must be a different reason than dollars and cents
> behind their policy. Why give up market share and profitability
> otherwise?
>
> Is maintaining snob appeal more important than money to Mont Blanc?
evidently snob appeal generates its own economic sense. if a certain
expensive wrist watch were to be suddenly cut to a fraction of its price,
the snob clientele would simply disappear! remember, they want not the
best value for money as much as goods they can flaunt as status symbols.
if the product is great value to begin with, then getting it down
to
the common herd level is perhaps profitable in the classical economics
sense. but if the product is hokey to begin with, then bringing down price
can only be an all round loss: the snobs look for something more pricey,
and the herd (like myself, for example) would look for quality and simply
ignore it as a bad value.
with all apologies to MB owners, of course: some of us are simply
curious as to hype, so not every MB owner is a strutting snob! (i was in
fact referring to the salesperson in my reply)
FDubiel
>higher estimate than Frank Dubiel would give, and he'd probably be much
>more accurate).
The actual cost to make a 146 is about $20 tops. I know this for a fact. If it
wasn't for the nib, it would cost about $2-3 to make tops. I'm allowing 10
mins extra hand labor for the gold nib for grinding and polishing. (probably
more than they need to really do it.) However, like I said weeks ago, compare
that to the CD industry where a CD can cost as little as a dime to make and
sells for $15. I really am not bothered by the "snob" factor of MBs except
when it comes to acting like Nazis with their dealers and customers. I could
even live with that if there pens had any claim to quality. I consider their
roller and BPs to be far worst than most pens sold for 50cents or less. Their
standard FPs write OK usually, but crack soooo easily and leak so often as to
be a scandle. Frank
Sawyer
(FDubiel) wrote:
[SNIP]
>Their
> standard FPs write OK usually, but crack soooo easily and leak so often as to
> be a scandle. Frank
I agree with Frank about the FPs. I have two MBs that I received as gifts
and both leak like a seive. One is the BIG MB and one is a 140-something
series. (Forgive my lack of MB knowledge.) So, they sit in my pen box
and look pretty. Give me an old Sheaffer snorkel or a Parker any day!
--Paul
--
Remove the spam blocker to reply. Thanks!
Joel Ricker
"einv" <ei...@physics.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3A9EFD5B...@physics.utexas.edu...
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> with all apologies to MB owners, of course: some of us are
simply
> curious as to hype, so not every MB owner is a strutting snob! (i was
in
> fact referring to the salesperson in my reply)
I think I should at least reprase what I'm saying about "snob". I'm
using that term a little loosly in my rants and its a word being thrown
around by others. I retract my use of the word snob in referring to
people who wish to own Montblanc pens. Regardless of the pens they
manufacture and the quality behind it, Montblanc has creating an image
of being "the" pen to own. Whether a person has heard of any other
brand of pen, they've heard of Montblanc and so it is their first
thought when they think of a high end pen to own or give as a gift. I
think it is unfortunate that Montblanc doesn't see fit to put the kind
of quality and customer service behind their pens that other brands do.
Owning one doesn't necessarily mean that that person is a snob, they
only wish to own a pen that is perceived as a luxury item that is highly
recognizable. If you own a Montblanc, enjoy it. It is a still a pen
and can bring a little joy and hapiness to your writing.
I hope I haven't put anybody off.
Thanks
J.
john cline ii
"Joel Ricker" wrote in part:
> ....Montblanc has creating an image
> of being "the" pen to own. Whether a person has heard of any other
> brand of pen, they've heard of Montblanc and so it is their first
> thought when they think of a high end pen to own or give as a gift.
I
> think it is unfortunate that Montblanc doesn't see fit to put the
kind
> of quality and customer service behind their pens that other brands
do.
MB owes its owners, whether they received a MB product as their very
own purchase, or as a gift, a product with quality commensurate with
its high costs, and service second to none. MB bought itself an
image. Over the very long term, if it does not produce goods that are
in line with that image, it will suffer. Even Jaguar eventually
suffered the humility of being bought out by the likes of what I am
sure it thought was the plebian, common FoMoCo. (Then again, FoMoCo
brought bags of bags of greenbacks, which I am sure helped to assuage
the guilt of selling out to commoners) <Somewhere I hear a MB
marketing exec sniffing and pronouncing through clinched lips: MB
does NOT produce products, nor goods. How common. That Cline
gentleman needs to learn we are crafters of fine writing instruments>
Once upon a time, and still amongst a somewhat lower social strata
than those afflicted with the desire for a MB, Cross was THE gift pen.
Cross also used to advertise a LOT. I think that MB's rise has been
at the expense of A T Cross, which produced, and still produces, a
very high quality product. No snowcaps, but a conical trademark
device does live at the top of every Cross pen, too!
> Owning one doesn't necessarily mean that that person is a snob, they
> only wish to own a pen that is perceived as a luxury item that is
highly
> recognizable.
Or, as you said, it was given to them as a gift by someone who loved
them and cared enough to spend enough to give what the giver thought
was the very best... In either event, MB's marketing produced that
desire. MB's products should be crafted with enough skill and care to
adequately perform the inherent function, to wit: they should not
leak, nor should they shatter into a gazillion pieces either under
normal use or when dropped. Further, they should, like other luxury
pens, be warranted for life and not require a $25-$35 service charge
even within MB's relatively short warranty period.
> If you own a Montblanc, enjoy it. It is a still a pen
> and can bring a little joy and hapiness to your writing.
At least for a while. If it isn't a 144. Or so it is said here, with
great frequency.
john cline ii who thought that needed to be said!
Douglas Gasner
> Once upon a time, and still amongst a somewhat lower social strata
> than those afflicted with the desire for a MB, Cross was THE gift pen.
> Cross also used to advertise a LOT. I think that MB's rise has been
> at the expense of A T Cross, which produced, and still produces, a
> very high quality product. No snowcaps, but a conical trademark
As I recall, this was the "Thick and Thin War". Cross largely created the
thin pen hysteria, and Cross gold clips and black cones were every bit the
status symbol of their time as MB is, although status itself has taken on
a lot of baggage. MB capitalized on human nature, the desire to have
something different, and the thick pen came back in. Easier to grasp,
less tiring in the hand, that sort of thing. European panache was a
marketing ploy that brought success here, and MB played this card.
MB also played up its trademark snowcap, but everyone was playing this game
in the luxury consumer products field, MB just did this better than
any other pen player not just Cross. Its called capitalism. Cross
suffered,
MB prospered. Cross tried to go the thick route, but that was going
against its grain. A fat Cross? What were they thinking?
It looked swollen. Now the Ion Gel, that is more like it.
FDubiel
>than those afflicted with the desire for a MB, Cross was THE gift pen.
>Cross also used to advertise a LOT. I think that MB's rise has been
>at the expense of A T Cross, which produced, and still produces, a
>very high quality product. No snowcaps, but a conical trademark
>device does live at the top of every Cross pen, too!
!00% correct. Cross among ANY pen in the world was THE pen for a yuppie, or
social status climber wanna be in the 60s, 70s and early 80s. Nothing
compared. Cross fell from grace when they re-entered the fountain pen market
far too late with far too little. I personally warned the managers of the
company of those mistakes both before and while their occired. While Cross no
longer enjoys the status it once had they still make a product of reasonable to
excellent quality and stand behind what they sell. Its a company that treats
its dealers and customers well. Not with the arrogance of MB. Furthermore,
when Cross was at the very top, if anything, they treated dealers and customers
even better than they do today. (Free mechanical guarantee for life, vs a $5
fee now.) Cross does still enjoy a very high status, at least here in New
England, where, rightfully so, its looked on as a local company locals should
support. Frank
RAClifford
I recall I gave ingraved Cross pens to the men in my wedding party in 1971. At
the time, I don't think you could find a better ball point pen, and who was
using fountain pens back then.
Tim McNamara
racli...@aol.com (RAClifford) wrote:
Probably more people than do now!
IMHO Cross still makes great pens, even though the standard ball point is
too skinny for me to use comfortably. They have been smart enough to
retain a visual identity for their products- you can always tell a Cross
pen at a glance, except perhaps for the Solo line. Even the larger pens
like the Townsend line are clearly visually related to the classic design.
j-la...@neiu.edu
I have one -- a gift. I wouldn't buy, or be caught dead carrying one,
myself. I did buy a new refill for it, as the one that came with it
was all dried out A dried out ballpoint refill! Must've been really
old stock. And I know the giver of this gift travels internationally
and shops at duty-free stores.
j-la...@neiu.edu
ago that Cross was "the brand." We were all told to have a Cross pen,
or set, in our shirt pockets when applying for jobs, or on the job as
a rising young executive. After a while, something becomes such a
cliche as a status symbol that one could actually be thought less of
for presuming to carry it (like a Gucci bag). i.e. I think less of
you because you are trying to impress me with an outdated status
symbol.
I wonder -- What is the current status symbol or executive accessory?
I have seen/overheard the young yuppie rising exec's shop the downtown
Chicago stores, and try out Pelikans, -- trying out usually means
checking the appearance, not the writing performance. (I remember one
poor clerk trying to get a customer to try writing with several pens,
and the customer would instead just look at the appearance of each,
and check it's length in his shirt pocket.) I would hate for Pelikans
to become the next status symbol, because that would mean they would
then become the next brand to not show in public, because it's the
tool of the wannabees who are only trying to impress.
Of course, I'm a reverse snob - snob. I have some brands I will use
at home, in private <g>, but not carry and use in public lest someone
might think I am trying to impress them. Sorta like I won't wear a
shirt with some designer's logo (alligator or sheep) embroidered on
it.
Tim McNamara
> Where would the serial number be, on a MB ballpoint?
It's engraved in tiny little numbers and letters on the thin cap band
next to the top of the clip.
Mine reads "CD115520"- does anyone know if there is an interpretable
pattern to MB serial numbers for date of manufacture, etc?
Giovanni Abrate
<j-la...@neiu.edu> wrote in message news:3aa008fc...@nntp.neiu.edu...
> I wonder -- What is the current status symbol or executive accessory?
Giovanni
pasj...@snet.net
I don't own a MB, the nearest I got was the new MB Boutique in the
West Farms Mall in Connecticut, and from the prices I may never own
one.
So! where is this leading? my ENT Doctor has a MB Rball and FP ( model
looks like the one Will Smith used in Enemy of the State ) I got to
try the RB but the FP he said was cracking and leaks so he keeps it on
his desk because his wife spent a lot of money for it. he asked if I
liked pens so I opened my pocket and let him try my Aurora Ipsilon,
Cross Radience, and a newer Cross townsend, he loved them alland after
he checked my ear out he asked to buy my Townsend and paid me 20
dollars over what I paid, I will pick up a new one next week when I
pick my son up from Vassar.
Cross has always (my opinion ) made a good product and I sure hope
they continue to do so.
PJFSr.
==========================================================================================
``I haven't had a chance to ask the questioners the question they've been questioning.''
G.W. Bush 2001
"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the
polls."
-- Vice President Al Gore
==========================================================================================
Mark Bisgeier
Actually it's a Backberry....
--
::::::::: Mark Bisgeier m...@netcom.com :::::::::
::::::::: "We've said all there is to be said, haven't we?" :::::::::
Reuben S. Pitts III
ME!!!
Reuben
john cline ii
"Mark Bisgeier" wrote:
> In <vxUn6.151225$Ch.29...@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> "Giovanni
Abrate" <try...@telocity.com> writes:
>
>
> ><j-la...@neiu.edu> wrote in message
news:3aa008fc...@nntp.neiu.edu...
> >> I wonder -- What is the current status symbol or executive
accessory?
> >Palm Pilot.
> >Giovanni
>
> Actually it's a Backberry....
Dear me. I am now an official fuddy-duddy. I have NO idea what a
Backberry even is. Is that like a blackberry?
john cline ii who is befuddled!
j-la...@neiu.edu
>In <vxUn6.151225$Ch.29...@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net> "Giovanni Abrate" <try...@telocity.com> writes:
>
>
>><j-la...@neiu.edu> wrote in message news:3aa008fc...@nntp.neiu.edu...
>>> I wonder -- What is the current status symbol or executive accessory?
>>Palm Pilot.
>>Giovanni
>
>Actually it's a Backberry....
>
>--
Backberry?
I like blueberries, and raspberries, in a compote, for a sauce over
shortcakes or dessert crepes with whipped cream. But what's a
backberry?
john cline ii
<j-la...@neiu.edu> wrote in message
news:3aa0718d...@nntp.neiu.edu...
Berries in a compost?
john cline ii, running for his room before he gets into a heap of
trouble!
Karl Charemaigne
Where do you get your figures? i would really like to know so you can do
my taxes with those underinflated figures... I have only a couple of
things to mention. There seems to be one thing thatyou are forgetting,
and that happens to be the fact that MontBlanc is still the big dog on
the block. This fact does not seem to be changing either, it actually
seems to be escalating. You should really take your narcisistic attitude
towards their pens and company and keep it to yourself! I have been
visiting this group for quite sometime, and being an avid collector of
writing instruments Modern and Vintage, I really think it is time to
leave well enough alone. Now to you I pose one question! IF YOU WERE
GIVEN $100,000.00 TO INVEST IN ANY SINGLE PEN COMPANY , WANTING A RETURN
ON YOUR INVETMENT. KNOWING YOU CAN ONLY PUT IT IN ONE PLACE. WHAT
COMPANY WOULD YOU INVEST IT IN? Really Frank, I am sure that i am not
the only one that would like to know what the all knowing FD, Author of
Da Book hwas to say!
Pardon my sarchasm, to anyone that might have been offended by this
message!
Sincerely,
Advocate for Pen Equality
Portsider
every few months and it's always the same thing. Montblanc bashing
which is how most here figure they can get accepted by the group and
then there is Frank who's only purpose is to sell da book and those
that blow smoke up his shorts as another means of getting accepted.
Portsider
BL-F
>
> ...IF YOU WERE GIVEN $100,000.00 TO INVEST IN ANY SINGLE PEN COMPANY,
> WANTING A RETURN ON YOUR INVETMENT. KNOWING YOU CAN ONLY PUT IT IN
OMAS! A huge influx of cash from LVMH has this company poised to blow
MB out of the water. Just you watch.
B
john cline ii
It is fact, not fiction, that Mont Blanc pens are not made with
quality anywhere near commensurate with the price. It really doesn't
matter if you believe it or not. But if for some reason you think it
does, don't believe me. But what of the AT MOST three year warranty
on Mont Blanc pens? Does the company itself know something about its
pens that you apparently do not? Why does every other major pen
company warrant its luxury pens for life? Why has MB made the
financial decision to only warrant its pens for such a short period?
If MB pens are so fine, so greatly constructed, then why would MB not
warrant them for life? What of the $35 service charge for warranty
work? What of the many, many people who have gotten on here and
literally dang near cried about the cracks, the shattering, etc. And
what about that crud that has formed in the bottom of not only my very
own bottle but also several other bottles of Mont Blanc Blue Black
Ink, an event I have never had happen with any other brand of ink?
BTW, Advocate for Pen Equality, you don't know pen companies. There
IS NOT a Mont Blanc Pen Company in which you can invest stock. In
fact, there are very few pen companies left that you can get pen
company stock that is influenced in any but the tiniest of ways by the
production and sale of writing instruments. There are shaver/lighter
companies with a LARGE sideline in writing instruments (Bic, who also
owns Sheaffer), consumer goods companies with a sideline of writing
instruments (Newell/Rubbermaid who owns Rotring, Parker, Waterman and
Papermate), German stationery companies who make printer cartridges,
ink, stationery, and a sideline of pens which if rumour is to be
believed is about to go way downscale (Pelikan), family held companies
in which stock is not available (numerous), etc. AT Cross stock is
available, but its recent performance has not been stellar. Given
the way the world is being taken over by laptops, computers, Palm
Pilots, etc., I am not sure I would invest my mythical $100,000 in any
writing instrument company.
By the way, Advocate, pens are NOT equal. This forum exists to
explain the differences, make sales, offer information. If you
disagree about Frank's or my or anyone else's opinions about MB or
anything else, by all means post. But don't come on here and engage
in personal attack. Where is your information about MB? The fact it
sells very well right now is not in itself a mark of quality. It IS
evidence that MB's marketing is working very, very well. A fact I
think all would acknowledge. They need to have the product to back up
that image. It is the opinion of many that they don't. OPINION. It
is hard to back up quality judgments with empirical evidence other
than a sample of onesies and twosies, but that is why this forum is
here. Bash opinions, not people. Leave Frank alone, but bash his
opinions all you want.
Frank making MONEY on Da Book? Please. I bet he has yet to clear a
nickel, after all these years.
As to your making nasty cracks about some of the rest of us or
questioning Frank's integrity , this is the classic tactic of an
insecure person wanting attention. You are not the first people to
come on here and do such. But you couldn't be wronger! As for
blowing smoke up Frank's shorts, you have caused a mental image that
even Frank would admit life would have been better without! HAR HAR
john cline ii whose room is not big enough to contain petulant posters
with motives of their own
BL-F
Seriously, most people here aren't interested in pens as investments.
Most people here USE their pens to WRITE WITH. Now, if you believe that
MB makes superior pens, defend your statement. How does MB construct
their piston mechanism? Can it be stripped? What are MB feeders made
of? Is that material or the way it's finished superior (vis-a-via ink
conduction) or more difficult to work than, say, injection-molded
plastic? Is MB's precious resin more scratch, crack, or shatter
resistant than the materials other manufacturers are using for their
pens? Are MB's nibs superior to others in any way? I'm not a MB
basher, but I've never found anything at all about MB pens that
distinguishes them as superior to other pens of equal or lesser cost.
I'd place them somewhere in the middle of the pack after Omas, Aurora,
Pelikan, Namiki and maybe some others.
B
Z
Thanks. Now I won't have to spend the time to pen a reply. You did it
for me.
--
Z.
"john cline ii" <jwciit...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Nr5o6.1085$Sz1.3...@typhoon2.ba-dsg.net...
so what
smoke up his shorts as another means of getting accepted.
>
?
Frank, do you feel a draft? or maybe you still like hotpants?
FDubiel
>Where do you get your figures? i would really like to know so you can do
>my taxes with those underinflated figures... I have only a couple of
>things to mention. There seems to be one thing thatyou are forgetting,
>and that happens to be the fact that MontBlanc is still the big dog on
>the block. This fact does not seem to be changing either, it actually
>seems to be escalating. You should really take your narcisistic attitude
>towards their pens and company and keep it to yourself! I have been
>visiting this group for quite sometime, and being an avid collector of
>writing instruments Modern and Vintage, I really think it is time to
>leave well enough alone. Now to you I pose one question! IF YOU WERE
>GIVEN $100,000.00 TO INVEST IN ANY SINGLE PEN COMPANY , WANTING A RETURN
>ON YOUR INVETMENT. KNOWING YOU CAN ONLY PUT IT IN ONE PLACE. WHAT
>COMPANY WOULD YOU INVEST IT IN? Really Frank, I am sure that i am not
>the only one that would like to know what the all knowing FD, Author of
>Da Book hwas to say!
>
I get my figures from pen companies. Its no secret. I have visited several
large famous pen companies. I have sat down in their managers offices,
discussed production and engineering costs and designs. You obviously know
nothing about how things are made and retailed. The average markup on anyting
sold is usually about 10 fold or more vs actual manufacting costs. Far more
for many imported high status items. Rolex admits it costs around $100 to 300
to make a multi1000 buck retail watch. I dont' care for your opinion anymore
than u give a damn for mine. So what? Mine is based on sound facts. Facts
available for public inspection if one knows who to ask or where to look. Or a
simple dose of common sense. Make something for 10 bucks. The company can
sell that to their main distrubutor for 20/25. (Some outfits distrubate
directly, many do not.) They sell it to a foreign distrubutor for 50. To a
jobber for 100. The jobber sells to retailers for 200. The customer pays
400. Not everyhting has as many steps. I've left out shipping, taxes, and other
fees as well. Some have more. But its common sense if one thinks about it.
Your opinion is based on "I don't like what you say" with nothing else to
back it up. Finally I would not invest in a pen company today. Period. Frank
FDubiel
Humm, I'm sure we can all recall all the knowledge this guy has given to the
group. hahahahahahahah Frank
Bob
1000 and it broke in pieces. This was NOT followed by dozens of replies
castigating Pelikans.
Clearly, there are problems with SOME models of Montblanc. I had a MB
ballpoint pen that broke just from normal usage. The design was a disaster.
On the other hand, I have 10 MB fountain pens and all of them are supurb
writers. Whether large or small, they are well balanced and fit my hand
nicely. Three of them are limited editions: Dumas, Proust and Agatha
Christie. These are simply wonderful writers and, yes, I use them all the
time. Four are vintage and in addition to writing flawlessly, their pistons
are holding up quite well. (Well, one is a button filler.) Three are modern:
149, 146 red with a vermeil cap, and the tiny Rouge et Noir.
I use them all and enjoy them very much. Nibs range from fine to left
oblique stub. The alloy nib on my vintage L139 is incredible.
MBs make up almost 10% of my collection and, like the equal number of
Parkers I own, they take up a respected place in my collection and in my
rotation.
I am not unaware that others have bad experiences with MBs, principally
involving the brittleness of the plastic used in MB's modern pens. This is a
valid criticism that has been beaten to death here and elsewhere.
I am also aware that many of you rail against the cost of the pens and MB's
marketing strategy. These are understandable criticisms.
But some of you - a small minority - project those criticisms onto the
people who purchase these pens. You dismiss them disparagingly as yuppies or
status seekers or worse. This, of course, says more about you than about
those of us who decide to own and use these pens.
I consider myself a sophisticated buyer, fully capable of making up my own
mind about what I like and what I don't. I don't purchase pens as an
investment; I think they make lousy investments. I collect them because I
like them, they fascinate me and give me pleasure. I get pleasure from
walking around a pen show for three days even if I don't buy anything. Pen
collecting is, in short, my hobby.
For those few of you whose hobby is to criticize people for their buying
habits, to judge them on the brand of fountain pen they own, I have some
advice: Get your own newsgroup.
Bob Sachs
Tim McNamara
"Bob" <rsa...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> But some of you - a small minority - project those criticisms onto the
> people who purchase these pens. You dismiss them disparagingly as yuppies or
> status seekers or worse. This, of course, says more about you than about
> those of us who decide to own and use these pens.
As a Mont Blanc owner, I have to say that most of the people I have met
who own Mont Blanc pens have been yuppies/status seekers, and have tended
to be people I didn't find very pleasant. I haven't met anyone from this
newsgroup in person, so perhaps this bunch would be different. And
almost everyone who sees me with my MB 146 and recognizes it puts me in
that category. Let's face it- the only people who can afford current
MB's *are* usually yuppies and status seekers. (I bought mine at Office
Max for just over half of snob-store retail, and it's a great writer).
FDubiel
>habits, to judge them on the brand of fountain pen they own, I have some
>advice: Get your own newsgroup.
>
>Bob Sachs
Bob you do make vary vaild points. I have never critizied people collecting
MBs. My complaint is against the quality of their pens and folks who THINK
they are getting the best due to MB advertising. The quality of older MBs is
fine. Modern MB FPs usually write very well untill they leak or crack. Their
nibs are still good, but thats the only good thing I can say about most of
their modern pens. Finally, about getting "your own newsgroup." Well, MB fans
can use get their own group--in fact last I knew there is such a group. So
those loving their pens can post there. Few if anyone ever seems to pay
attention to the MB newsgroup. Hummm. So post here if you like. Thats free
speech and everyone has opinion they are entitled to share. Frank
Fdu...@aol.com
> can use get their own group--in fact last I knew there is such a group. So
> those loving their pens can post there. Few if anyone ever seems to pay
> attention to the MB newsgroup. Hummm. So post here if you like. Thats free
> speech and everyone has opinion they are entitled to share. Frank
For whatever its worth--the name of the MB newsgroup is
alt.pens.montblanc FD
Urban Fredriksson
RAClifford <racli...@aol.com> wrote:
>I recall I gave ingraved Cross pens to the men in my wedding party in 1971. At
>the time, I don't think you could find a better ball point pen, and who was
>using fountain pens back then.
Well, for one thing, at least here in Sweden it was still
required in school for the first couple of years when you
learned to write. I think, I'm not sure it was in every
school as late as 1971.
--
Urban Fredriksson http://www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/
For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing they like.
-- Abraham Lincoln
Reuben S. Pitts III
us---in "a few months." In the meantime I'm going to settle back in my old
swivel rocker and dream about how well made Mont Blancs used to be many years
ago in a land far away . . .
Reuben
j-la...@neiu.edu
thought I had a knock off imitation (Although I guess it could still
be...)
Now I feel guilty. This gift-giver either spent too much on me, or
got a very good deal. Maybe I should marry her. (But I'd have to kill
her husband, first.)
Karl Charemaigne
WI manufacturer, with exeption to papermate, bic, etc.
Karl Charemaigne
Vendome. WWW.VENDOME.COM anyhow that set aside the investment question
was a hypothetical.. and FRANK i must say your answer was quite
adequate! I would not Invest in a pen company in todays day and age
either. the reason behind the post in the first place was just to say a
couple things, I do understand that Frank is a very knowledgable
individual on pens vintage and new, i also know he has a deep loathing
for MB in particular. This however, is just plain old childish
behavior. There are so many other constructive things to post about.
Those of the group that practice nothing but MB bashing seem to forget
that even though MB might not be the 100% best pen in the world that
they have made themselves out to be. But on that note they are a company
that relies on a lot of MARKETING, they have done an excellent job in
MARKETING themselves, it seems like i have said this before but
Montblanc has cleared the way for pen companies everywhere! Not only
with the hightened amount of pen awareness that is out there, but also
the age group is changing and is trending towards a younger crowd as
well. Pens are no longer the 30-40 something toys they were, I am
noticing a large amount of teens to 20's coming in and actually
purchasing Writing Instruments from us, we are no longer able to assess
the value of a customer based on age. 90% of those people come in kow
about and ask about Montblanc. By the way I have an a background in
Manufacturing and distibution, so yes i am aware of Markups and cost of
manufacture. I am full aware that you have more than likely gone to
manufacturing facilities and witnessed the process from many companies.
I however find it difficult to believe that MB would allow an outsider
to visit with engineers and executives to hash over their manufaturing
costs and processes! Lets all admit that if it were not for all the
awareness that is out there now there wouldnt be the great pen stores
like Bittners and FPH. they would all be struggling and not paying
rents/mortgages.
for example lets not follow in the footsteps of organized religion, and
lecture people about what is right and wrong. does this sound familiar?
IF YOU DONT GO TO CHURCH YOU ARE GOING TO GO TO HELL!! sounds kinda
like, IF YOU BUY A MONTBLANC YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE NOTHING BUT
PROBLEMS!!
Frank i am not only pickng on you sorry if you feel this way bt you are
the most frequent offender of this blatant chastising of MB. I do happen
to like your book. just think of me as someone who is just tired of
seeing nothing but negativity in this group when there is already too
much in the outside world. I see it all day i really dont want it all
day and night!
Cant we all just get along?
The Advocate for Pen Equality
Karl Charemaigne
happen, however I dont think that OMAS wants to get that big. they have
kinda a cool cult thing going on in the USA. Same thing with
Montegrappa.
Karl Charemaigne
I could not have said it better myself, very eloquent.
alt.Pen-complaints.(insert company here)
Karl Charemaigne
still stands being able to invest in a pen company to make a return on
your investment you would be more likely to do so investing in a stable
company than one that is not stable!! I can make you a list of companies
that are not stable a page long. yet on the other hand there are
probobly 5 or so companies that might be worth looking at if they were
all available for the purpose of investing! as i have said before you
can find Vendome on the Swiss stock exchange.
Karl Charemaigne
i think 2 yrs is more than fair to figure out if a pen has a
manufactures defect or not. if you sit on it = your problem! Run over it
= your problem! If you can not be responsible with your expensive wriing
utensils maybe you should not use them? I own many MB's and i take care
of them and in the 7+ years i have owned them never onc a problem. there
are some really big misuse and abuse isses out there, if you are lucky
enough to make nice with a MB service erson in a boutique you just might
be able to eek out with out paying an arm and a leg for your repairs.
just thins to think about
j-la...@neiu.edu
<scratching head>> <blinking eyes>
Huh? Was that all really one sentence?
Whadde say?
j-la...@neiu.edu
Z
concern MB. An MB thread begins every so often, but then it dies down.
Frank usually just responds to an incorrect or misleading statement ---
and as usual, gets himself in trouble by trying to correct someone else's
error.
--
Z.
"Karl Charemaigne" > Yes you can invest in Montblanc. Swiss Stock Exchange
, comany name
> Vendome. WWW.VENDOME.COM anyhow that set aside the investment question
> was a hypothetical.. and FRANK i must say your answer was quite
> adequate! I would not Invest in a pen company in todays day and age
> either. the reason behind the post in the first place was just to say a
> couple things, I do understand that Frank is a very knowledgable
> individual on pens vintage and new, i also know he has a deep loathing
> for MB in particular. This however, is just plain old childish
> behavior. There are so many other constructive things to post about.
>
Fdu...@aol.com
> > individual on pens vintage and new, i also know he has a deep loathing
> > for MB in particular. This however, is just plain old childish
> > behavior. There are so many other constructive things to post about.
You know nothing at all about me or my views on pens. That is obvious.
The childish behavior is to say such a thing and not respond with facts
to prove otherwise. As John posted--explain why MBs are well made, last
very long, stand up to normal use, including an occasional drop, don't
leak, and are in any, or all, ways superior to other pens. If you can't
answer--rant on. To answer with facts to prove someone wrong is
constructive. To rant is childish. I have no loathing at all for MB.I
don't care for people who talk with nothing to say other than attack
others. Frank
FDubiel
>of them and in the 7+ years i have owned them never onc a problem.
This cannot be true if you have used a current MB plastic ballpoint pen for
seven years on a daily basis. I guarantee it it totally impossible for that
pen to take its own twisting action without the plastic cracking from its own
stress when twisted. i don't care how gentle you are--it must happen if the
pen is used on a regular basis. That is a simple mechanical fact. In fact I
have seen dozens of these BPs cracked before the customer even gets the pen,
simply from the few first twists at the factory or dealer. You need a very
powerful mag glass to see these early stress cracks, but they are occasionally
there on mint never sold MB bps. Frank
FDubiel
>Manufacturing and distibution, so yes i am aware of Markups and cost of
>manufacture. I am full aware that you have more than likely gone to
>manufacturing facilities and witnessed the process from many companies.
>I however find it difficult to believe that MB would allow an outsider
>to visit with engineers and executives to hash over their manufaturing
>costs and processes! Lets all admit that if it were not for all the
>awareness that is out there now there wouldnt be the great pen stores
>like Bittners and FPH. they would all be struggling and not paying
>rents/mortgages.
Taking the last first--FPH of New York, one of the largest and most famous pen
dealers on earth no longer sells MBs at all. None. No, I heven't been to
Germany, but I have talked to many people who have toured the MB plant. I have
also talked to several MB reps. And have discussed in detail with them what
they learned on their own tours of the plant, and also in their varied MB
"sales prevention" seminars. (Hey, thats an inside MB joke that several of
their own reps use.) I also have video tapes of the MB pen making process that
show in detail thier manufacturing process. At least up to a couple years ago
MB did offer plant tours with an apointment, I'd assume they still might. In
the US the plants I have toured are numerous, including a few that do not open
to the public. Frank
Tim McNamara
fdu...@aol.com (FDubiel) wrote:
> Taking the last first--FPH of New York, one of the largest and most
> famous pen dealers on earth no longer sells MBs at all. None.
I just got FPH's catalog about a month ago and they have an extensive
selection of Mont Blancs listed. Does FPH stock them or only special
order? I can't imagine that they would outright refuse to sell them if
the customer was really insistent.
Tim McNamara
Karl_De...@webtv.net (Karl Charemaigne) wrote:
> quality or not they still sell more pens i a year than any other single
> WI manufacturer, with exeption to papermate, bic, etc.
I am surprised by this statement. Is there some source of information
about this available somewhere comparing Mont Blanc with Parker, Pelikan,
Sheaffer, Omas, Rotring...
Tim McNamara
Karl_De...@webtv.net (Karl Charemaigne) wrote:
As far as warranties go, the problem is not that a 2 year warranty is in
itself problematic (in the US it is a one year warranty). It is that
competing pen companies offer far *better* warranties. Mont Blanc lays
claim to being the best pen on the planet; why then do they not offer the
best warranty on the planet? IMHO it is because doing so would be too
costly because of the fragility of the pens and problems that develop
after the 2 year mark. Why does Ford offer a 6 year/100,000 mile
warranty on engines? Because problems generally develop after that.
They are playing the odds and limiting their liability by limiting the
warranty period.
What if, in five years, the piston seals wear out and the pen fails to
fill or begins to leak and becomes unuseable? Should that be a cost to
the manufacturer or the consumer? Since competing companies - e.g.,
Pelikan- will repair this for free why don't Mont Blanc? If they are in
fact the best pen in the world, why is the company afraid to stand behind
their products to the extent that other manufacturers do?
Let me give you a case in point. I inherited two Sheaffer snorkel
fountan pens that belonged to my grandfather in 1986 or 87. My
grandfather died in 1970. I used the pens until they stopped working in
1990, and sent them to Sheaffer for repair. Sheaffer could not repair
them (they were 38 years old at the time), but sent them back with two
replacement pens (Targas). Now, the lifetime warranty expired with my
grandfather's death in 1970, yet 20 years after that Sheaffer was willing
to honor that warranty as best they could, by sending replacement pens to
me along with the address of Fountain Pen Hospital if I wanted to see
about getting my old snorkels fixed.
I am certain that Mont Blanc would not extend such a courtesy to my
grandchildren. They wouldn't even extend it to *me*, since my 146 is 8
years old. So you can rabbit on all you like about Mont Blanc and defend
their parsimonious attitude, but the facts appear to indicate that Mont
Blanc does not stand behind pens which are the "epitome of writing
culture" (to quote my warranty card) nearly as well as other
manufacturers of what must be inferior pens. The clear implication is
that they know of their products's deficiencies and that it is more cost
effective to market aggressively than to make a better pen.
FDubiel
>selection of Mont Blancs listed. Does FPH stock them or only special
>order? I can't imagine that they would outright refuse to sell them if
>the customer was really insistent.
Its a long story. There are no MBs listed in their latest catalogues I have.
I just checked their web site and MB is again listed. It wasn't last time I
looked a couple months ago. So I suppose their most recent catalog may have MB
back again. FPH was one of many dealers cut off by MB for refusing to follow
orders. (Insert your own ideas about what those orders were. LOL) I know
Steve and Terry were in a battle with MB about it, and I guess its finally
settled. I belive MB is also absent from any mention in their 2001 full
color calender, which of course was printed last summer. Frank
FDubiel
>fill or begins to leak and becomes unuseable? Should that be a cost to
>the manufacturer or the consumer? Since competing companies - e.g.,
>Pelikan- will repair this for free why don't Mont Blanc? If they are in
>fact the best pen in the world, why is the company afraid to stand behind
>their products to the extent that other manufacturers do?
>
>Let me give you a case in point. I inherited two Sheaffer snorkel
>fountan pens that belonged to my grandfather in 1986 or 87. My
>grandfather died in 1970. I used the pens until they stopped working in
>1990, and sent them to Sheaffer for repair. Sheaffer could not repair
>them (they were 38 years old at the time), but sent them back with two
>replacement pens (Targas). Now, the lifetime warranty expired with my
>grandfather's death in 1970, yet 20 years after that Sheaffer was willing
>to honor that warranty as best they could, by sending replacement pens to
>me along with the address of Fountain Pen Hospital if I wanted to see
>about getting my old snorkels fixed.
>
Great points, Tim. But also remember that the original Snorkel guarantee was
just one year. It was never a lifetime guarantee. But this is a typical
example of how Sheaffer, along with Parker and Cross often have gone way beyond
any need or call of duty simply to perform the best possible customer service.
No quality pen should leak within 5 years. Nor should it crack in normal use,
say, by its own design as in the MB BPs, or by a gentle rare occasional roll
off a desk. A guarantee against at least that is reasonable. I can think of
no pen company except MB that would not fix or replace a pen that cracked after
merely rolling off a desk. Assuimng they belived the customer and the pen was
still under warantee. Frank
Tim McNamara
fdu...@aol.com (FDubiel) wrote:
Conspicuous by its absence in the calendar. MB is in the "Annual 2001
Catalog" pp 8-11. In the price list, it states "please call for special
promotions of the month." ;-)
Matt Thomas
not feel like punctuating! If you can not take it dont read it!
<holding head> <blinking eyes>
Extra Dry Vodka Martini, Shaken Not Stirred !! The name is Bond, James
Bond!
Karl Charemaigne
It seems to me you are missing the point, just a little bit. I never
said that all pen stores carry Montblanc. however, I did say that they
have done miraculous things to highten the awareness towards the pen
industry. In fact FPH, whom you claims no longer carries Montblanc, had
no problem sending me the Dumas set FP,BP,Pcl than i orderd no more than
7 days ago!! here i am looking at it in my living room! How did that
happen? Anyhow, i also recall never saying you could ever have toured a
MB facility, I did say that they would probobly not sit you down to
hash over Manufacturing process and cost of Manufacturing one of thier
Writing Instruments!! Kinda like the Formula to Coca-Cola... I leave it
at that, i never came into the room to tout Facts other than to say I
was sick of seeing so much bashing of their products. I dont really know
how much easier this concept is to grasp!! What it seems more like is
stubborness and just plain old I dont care what you think , I am going
to do what I want. So why dont tell me about your mother? Did you have a
good relationship as a child? What is really eating you? Really just let
it out....
Karl Charemaigne
Omas, Montegrappa, Visconti, have the facilities to manufacture the
abundance of product it would take to reach their level. as far as
Rotring, I am not certain however they are not nearly as strong as they
used to be, and no longer make the abundance of Drafting utensils that
they used too. I have quite a few compasses, protractors, lead holders ,
etc. Parker is another story! Have you really looked at thier line of
writing instruments lately? There is no way they are in anyway close to
being on the top of the hill. I would say that Waterman would have to b
the closest and is probobly pretty close, but not on top. However,
Vendome is part of the Richemont Group, which owns MB, Montegrappa,
Cartier, and Dunhill. Do the math which ever way you please, it doesnt
look promising.
Karl Charemaigne
think I can do just fine on my own. I can not help but notice you use
WebTv! Do you like it? I really can not stand mine! well you heard him
IF I WANT TO PUNCTUATE I WILL IF NOT I WILL NOT. DO NOT LIKE IT? SORRY!
I WILL THINK ABOUT PUCTUATING A LITTLE MORE!!!!
NOT!!
BL-F
Seems we have a troll with Multiple Personality Disorder.
SMMRFLD
stubborness and just plain old I dont care what you think , I am going
to do what I want.>>>
Yes, Grosse, that seems to be what you're doing. Now can we move on instead of
wasting everyone's time with an argument you're not going to win?
PelikanDRP
>nickel, after all these years.
yeah right
---
"Minds and fountain pens will work when willed,
but minds, like fountain pens, must first be filled"
PelikanDRP
>1000 and it broke in pieces. This was NOT followed by dozens of replies
>castigating Pelikans.
I believe it broke where the grip screws into the barrel...a weak point on any
pen.
That aside, if you drop a pen on a hard floor...it's going to break more than
not.
I don't care who makes it.
Paul
PelikanDRP
ever want to trash. :-)
PelikanDRP
>MB out of the water. Just you watch.
Hmmm...I'd want a pen with the least amount of "problems"
BL-F
>
> >OMAS! A huge influx of cash from LVMH has this company poised to blow
> >MB out of the water. Just you watch.
>
> Hmmm...I'd want a pen with the least amount of "problems"
That'd be BIC. :)
Sans Serif XXX
Joel Ricker
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@mr.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-84C414....@news.onvoy.net...
> Conspicuous by its absence in the calendar. MB is in the "Annual 2001
> Catalog" pp 8-11. In the price list, it states "please call for
special
> promotions of the month." ;-)
Part of being an authorized retailer is you cannot list or sell product
on the web. No pictures, no prices, nothing. They don't seem to be
screaming for anybody's head for the sites who are putting a couplel
images to decorate a mont blanc page like FPH is doing in their section.
They did finally allow the sale of Mont Blanc refills on the web -- only
after their own refill site went online. Funny how that worked.
Also discounting is frowned upon. Since FPH always down large across
the board discounts to their pen buyers, that practice couldn't be done
with Montblanc (probably the trouble mentioned earlier) so they have to
do it on the sly by saying "call us for monthly promotion".
-J