Opinions on Pelikan M800-M1000
JANA
good quality FP, such as a Pelikan. I had a bad experience with two Pelikan
M400s about 7 years ago, pistons seizing in the barrels, and wondered if
these pens are worth the money. I liked the balance/feel of the Pelikan and
the flexibility and ink flow of the nib, and so I'm inclined to favor
Pelikans now. Would the M800 or M1000 be a good quality writing instrument
worth the price, or could I get a better quality pen for that amount of
money? Your comments and experiences are appreciated.
Jim Nesta
H. Whelply
smoothness, etc. The styling is an acquired taste (IMHO), but not hard
to live with. I've seen them on the internet in the neighborhood of
$270-280, if memory serves--perhaps even slightly less--and, given
other pens out there in that general price range, the M800 is certainly
a good deal, I think. For my taste the M1000 is too large.
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Jeremy Lam
whelply...@cui.edu.invalid says...
> I like, very much, my M800. Excellent quality, ink flow, nib
> smoothness, etc. The styling is an acquired taste (IMHO), but not hard
> to live with. I've seen them on the internet in the neighborhood of
> $270-280, if memory serves--perhaps even slightly less--and, given
> other pens out there in that general price range, the M800 is certainly
> a good deal, I think. For my taste the M1000 is too large.
>
Several months back I remember that some dealer was selling them for
$200, and other dealers were around $220.
As to the pen itself, I'm unimpressed with it, considering the raves
about it everywhere. I think the styling is boring, it writes ok, and it
weighs too much, especially on the cap end. Maybe I was expecting too
much.
For the money I'd rather get a Namiki Impressions, a Sheaffer Balance 2
Stub, or even a Namiki Ecrino. I would try out the M800 and a whole
bunch of other pens in a store before you plonk down the money.
--
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Eric Edelman
I'm a student and take notes all day long.
The M800 is one of the pens I use most frequently. The filling mechanism is
great, the nib is perfect - the best XF I've tried, and it's a good looking
pen. The M1000 has a more flexible nib, and because of that is not the best
note-taker, so I use it at home to write letters, checks, etc....
I own other modern pens from Parker, Sheaffer, Delta, Visconti, Aurora, and
Bexley and feel that the M800 can hold it's own against anything from the
other manufacturers.
--
Eric Edelman
eric@**nospam**edelmans.org
www.edelmans.org
JANA <nest(nospam)@cts.com> wrote in message
news:85ftce$1sn5$1...@thoth.cts.com...
WHL
with a fine nib (works well with Penman Sapphire) and either a Vanishing
Point or Impressions (Penman clogs them). All of them write immediately and
smoothly. The 800 probably holds the most ink, the Impressions next (push
button converter). The Namiki nibs are finer than the Pelikan nib. (Namiki
M is about the same as the Pelikan F.) The 800 is larger and heavier than
the Impressions, although the diameters aren't much different. I bought the
800 for less than $200 and the Impressions for less than $150. Either way,
you're getting a good, reliable pen.
Bill
Steve Jacobs
one of each. Both will write first time, every time, even if not used
for weeks.
Boring is good.
steve jacobs
On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:38:54 -0800, "JANA" <nest(nospam)@cts.com>
wrote:
redpasca...@aol.com.invalid
Jon Rutherford
collector, but I do write with all my pens) that I completely trust
and feel comfortable with, although I agree with those who say it's
too heavy. It would be my "desert island" pen. I also have an M600
and enjoy its lighter weight, but I haven't got its nib adjusted just
right yet -- it's getting there, though.
wbp55
>For the money I'd rather get a Namiki Impressions, a Sheaffer Balance 2
>Stub, or even a Namiki Ecrino. I would try out the M800 and a whole
>bunch of other pens in a store before you plonk down the money.
I would seriously look at a Namiki Custom Impressions. I own am M800
and I love the nib, but I'm not crazy about the balance. All of the
pens that you have mentioned are all worth considering as well.
I'm beginning to question the fixation that people have with M800s. I
find them a bit top heavy.
Jailhouse Psych
The Pelikan M800 is like a Mercedes-Benz. Built like a tank, or should I say a
fine example of German engineering. I find it slow writing, if not tedious,
not unlike driving the car cross country. Then again I have mild carpal tunnel
in my writing hand. I find the flex of the M800 nib highly overrated, and
further with both the M800 and the M400 I have found both nibs require hand
testing as there are wide variations in nib smoothness. I was hoping to use
then M800 fine nib, but found my $25 Hero steel nib to be smoother. Had to
exchange the M800 for a medium.
On the other hand, if you want to tear up the road, er I mean paper, with a
Ferrari, and you can live with a plain black wrapper, then there is nothing
like an Omas Paragon oversize. Lightweight, sleek, smooth as silk, generously
wet, and flex to die for, in either the standard 18 kt or replacement 14 kt.
version. The 14kt fine is as exciting to write with as is the 18 kt medium. The
distributor's top shelf service is a bonus. This is the pen you must try if you
want to be signing like John Hancock or Thomas Jefferson.
PelikanDRP
This nib is to die for...flex like a diving board :-)
Paul
---
"Minds and fountain pens will work when willed,
but minds, like fountain pens, must first be filled"
H. Whelply
<nor...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> The Pelikan M800 is like a Mercedes-Benz. Built like a tank...
Given that others are working in their pen recommendations here, I have
to get in a plug for the S. T. Dupont Olympio. Truly built like a tank
(much as I like my M800, it seems light and plasticky by comparison),
but surprisingly maneuverable and very comfortably balanced. This seems
to be a very underrated pen, one that gets little notice for some
reason--my impression is that relatively few people know about
them--perhaps due to a somewhat higher price. But, as someone else said
here, this is a "seriously great pen" indeed.
HW
Steve Lehman
H. Whelply wrote in message <022eeae0...@usw-ex0102-009.remarq.com>...
>In article <387C0BFA...@frontiernet.net>, Jailhouse Psych
><nor...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>> The Pelikan M800 is like a Mercedes-Benz. Built like a tank...
>
>Given that others are working in their pen recommendations here, I have
>to get in a plug for the S. T. Dupont Olympio. Truly built like a tank
>(much as I like my M800, it seems light and plasticky by comparison),
If you use a pen for more than just signatures and short notes, heavy is
bad, light is good. Notice how light most of the really good vintage pens
are. The Pelikan M-800 is only light in comparison to a pen like the ST
Dupont Olympio, (Which they now call the Orpheo, to preclude a fight with
the Olympics people)
Yes, the Orpheo is a beautiful pen, well made, but remember two things -
first, its heavy - heavier than a Pelikan 800 OR 1000
Second, its GD expensive.
I think the smaller Fidelio is a better bet, actually, since its lighter
because its smaller.
as for ST Duponts being underrated, I think its just not that commonly
available, - For a heavy pen, its one of the best.
Steve L.
BLFritsche
Omases do this, and they're not boring. I like Pelikan pens, too.
They're just a bit "conservative" for my tastes.
Bernadette
Steve Jacobs wrote:
>
> Someone said that the M800 and M1000 are boring. Yes they are. I have
> one of each. Both will write first time, every time, even if not used
> for weeks.
>
> Boring is good.
>
> steve jacobs
>
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 10:38:54 -0800, "JANA" <nest(nospam)@cts.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I'm currently using a Waterman LeMan EF that I would like to replace with a
> >good quality FP, such as a Pelikan. I had a bad experience with two Pelikan
> >M400s about 7 years ago, pistons seizing in the barrels, and wondered if
> >these pens are worth the money. I liked the balance/feel of the Pelikan and
> >the flexibility and ink flow of the nib, and so I'm inclined to favor
> >Pelikans now. Would the M800 or M1000 be a good quality writing instrument
> >worth the price, or could I get a better quality pen for that amount of
> >money? Your comments and experiences are appreciated.
> >
> >Jim Nesta
> >
--
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bfri...@home.com
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Michael C. Bussacco
a Aurora Talentum.
They all write very smooth, write the first time, and do not skip. On a
desert island I would take
the Omas Paragon, lightweight, 18kt gold medium nib, celluloid.
--
Michael C. Bussacco
Flotilla Commander
Flotilla 15-4
U.S.C.G. Auxiliary
H. Whelply
them in each hand quickly reveals. I just weighed both. I didn't remove
ink, so this isn't very precise, but gives some sense of the magnitude
of the difference. Pelikan: 29.8 grams. Dupont: 49.0 grams.
I'm wondering how much of an issue this is in the "real world." Of
course, if one has a physical disability, arthritis, or other problem,
the weight of a pen may indeed be an issue. But, for most people, even
if writing quite a bit, I wonder. I mean, we're talking grams here, not
pounds. Put differently, is weight more a psychological factor than a
physiological one, similar to the concept of "balance" which, as F.
Dubiel points out, basically comes down to how comfortable a pen feels
in an individual's hand? Yes, weight is measurable, while balance (as
in "perfectly balanced pen") is not (as far as I can tell). But is it a
truly significant quality for most healthy, normal-size people, in most
applications, above and beyond a matter of simple preference?
In article <85ij64$5sp$1...@nntp5.atl.mindspring.net>, "Steve Lehman"
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Scaupaug
Hmmmm.... Give me a Sheaffer triumph any day. I heard the same people making
the big triumphs also defeated the tanks built by mercedes at that time. It
might just be a rumor though...
I like a pen with stripes on the barrel/section/end cap/and cap....not just the
barrel sleeve..in choices of red/green/silver/amber pearls and black stripes.
I also like a lot more gold and platinum...and greater ink capacity. Just some
personal reasons for my preference...that's all... The Pelikan is OK - but I
still prefer the Triumph.
Peter Vos
Check with Dan Way at lt...@camden.tds.net
I got an 800 for my brother as a gift through him. He is responsive and
his pricing is very competitive.
--
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Steve Lehman
H. Whelply wrote in message <26f15c5e...@usw-ex0101-006.remarq.com>...
>You're right, the Dupont is heavier than an M800, as holding one of
>them in each hand quickly reveals. I just weighed both. I didn't remove
>ink, so this isn't very precise, but gives some sense of the magnitude
>of the difference. Pelikan: 29.8 grams. Dupont: 49.0 grams.
>
>I'm wondering how much of an issue this is in the "real world." Of
>course, if one has a physical disability, arthritis, or other problem,
>the weight of a pen may indeed be an issue. But, for most people, even
>if writing quite a bit, I wonder.
Weight(and mass) is not the same thing as "balance" Balance is a subjective
term, which Frank properly points out is pretty much a "feels good" thing.
Weight (and mass) is quantifiable. We can disagree over what pen has better
'balance', but you can't say the Orpheo weighs less than the Pelikan 800.
No, I think the psychology here is that people have come to associate
'plastic' with "cheap" , and light weight with cheap, and so anything that
is heavy isn't plastic, and must be higher quality.
As for 'real world', the pen is in motion when you write with it. Those
ten grams make a difference when you have to change direction - you overcome
inertia constantly while writing, and a heavier pen is harder to redirect.
When repeated hundreds of times per hour, that extra effort can make a
difference. Those ten grams are not pounds as you say - but I am not
talking a signature now and then, or jotting down directions to the local
flea market. I am talking about writing for extended periods of time, -
and consider how much easier it is to write with a roller ball than a
typical ballpoint. The ballpoint requires a little more effort to run
across the page - and over a day of writing, that can give you writer's
cramp.
Basically, its all well to speculate, but I merely point to the millions of
vintage fountain pens made back when pens were used on a daily basis, all
day, five days a week. They were light in weight. And higher quality pens
were not heavier than inexpensive pens.
Steve L.
Steve Lehman
Scaupaug wrote in message <20000112221246...@ng-fq1.aol.com>...
>>> The Pelikan M800 is like a Mercedes-Benz. Built like a tank...
>
>Hmmmm.... Give me a Sheaffer triumph any day. I heard the same people
making
>the big triumphs also defeated the tanks built by mercedes at that time.
It
>might just be a rumor though...
Scau, though the people making the big Triumphs also made little plastic
fittings that may have gone into the tanks made by Cadillac and others, ask
any tank driver who went against those mercedes and porche made tigers and
panters, and they will tell you they would rather have had tigers or panters
than Shermans - - the reason they prevailed is yes, thanks to the US
automakers who turned out massive numbers of tanks, and then the tank crews
and infantry who died in large numbers going up against superior equipment.
And, though Sheaffers were very popular, if you really wanted something, a
Parker 51 was the pen to trade with.
But lets compare apples with apples. The vintage Pelikan 100 and 100N are
the pens to compare with you vintage Triumph. And they are as well made, -
Sure, Sheaffers look better, and usually hold more ink, but don't have
interchangeable nibs, and are rarely found with flexible nibs.
Regards
SL
Jeffrey A. Bourque
You are hitting and addressing all sorts of issues here. First, as a dealer let
me all remind you that there are two sizes of Orpheos, the large and the medium,
designed to address the weight issue.
But secondly, the "psychology" of it all is definitely an issue. I am not going
to address the issue of the physics of weight and writing, you did an excellent
job. I do want to talk about image and impression and expectation. I
personally use and prefer "plastic" pens (could be resin, celluloid or
whatever), and they tend to be larger flat-top types. Usually it is a mix of
vintage and new. Many times when people are in the showroom, they'll notice the
pens in my pocket, and ask what's that. I'll take it out let them hold it, and
if I can surmise they are a "FP" user, I'll let them write a quick bit.
Invariably though, in many instances, they'll comment on how light that pen is.
For example, One of my regular users is a Omas Blue Marconi. People take a look
at the size of the pen, surmise it is substantial, and *expect* it to be heavy.
Many people that are now moving up to fine writing instruments, probably have
been using brass barreled MB lookalikes, and know the weight of that. They then
ascribe that size equals a commensurate amount of weight. Then they pick up one
of these resin jobs, and whoa, not what they expected. And yes to a certain
extent, plastic is cheap. The cheap Bic sticks that they are moving away from
are plastic and cheap. You want a lightweight plastic pen, get a Bic, might be
the thinking. Also, both vintage and modern pens made of precious metals weigh
quite a bit more than their non precious metal counterparts. For example, the
Large Aurora 88 in black resin is a very light pen. Its counterpart in Sterling
Silver is much heavier, and costs quite a bit more (although both are great
values). Again, perception and expectation here leads to an impression. The
plastic model is cheaper and lighter than silver model, with the final
impression, albeit a subconscious one, is that the heavier the pen, the more it
costs. Of course, these are just my anecdotal observations, but hey, I have a
lot of time on my hands right now, and have nothing better to do.
Now I, Dr. Hugo Z. Quackenbush, will get down off the podium and offer a real
world solution. If you want to use a Large Orpheo, do something besides 12
ounce curls. Do some reps of forearm curls at the gym, and you'll be taking
notes so fast with that Orpheo, that you'll think it is a Pelikan 200. Anyone
wishing to buy Orpheos or any other pen, after completing a round at the gym, is
cordially invited to visit our web site or call Louise or Kelli on the 800
number. Although, the way some of you guys flirt with Louise and Kelli, I
should make that a 900 number.
Regards,
Jeff
Steve Lehman wrote:
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FDubiel
>vintage fountain pens made back when pens were used on a daily basis, all
>day, five days a week. They were light in weight. And higher quality pens
>were not heavier than inexpensive pens.
Excellent point! One of the chief advantages of plastic pens, when introduced
in the 1920s, were the fact that they were lighter than rubber pens and
therefore, advertised as needing less effort to use. Its easy to make a pen
heavier, lead is cheap (LOL) and many pens contain brass weights or such. Too
light a pen may not feel right, or even cheap, but pens, esp all metal pens
with heavy brass barrels and caps, are usually not great to use over long
periods, feel too heavy in a shirt pocket, and due to simply weight more likely
to be damaged in some way when dropped. Best example---IMHO the lighter PFM
feels better than the metal Legacy IMHO. Same with the later metal Crest
models vs TDs and Snorkels. Frank
H. Whelply
<leh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> ...and consider how much easier it is to write with a roller ball
> than a
> typical ballpoint. The ballpoint requires a little more effort to
> run
> across the page - and over a day of writing, that can give you
> writer's
> cramp.
Certainly true, though I'd respectfully suggest that it's not the ideal
analogy because the ballpoint, in my experience, requires more downward
pressure than the rollerball, and the additional fatigue it causes is a
result of using muscles in the hand to exert a different kind of force
than merely navigating the pen around the page. (Come to think of it,
wouldn't a little more weight in the pen body be an asset with a
ballpoint for that reason?!)
> Basically, its all well to speculate, but I merely point to the
> millions of
> vintage fountain pens made back when pens were used on a daily
> basis, all
> day, five days a week. They were light in weight. And higher
> quality pens
> were not heavier than inexpensive pens.
I suppose my comments about the Olympio/Orpheo being "built like a
tank" and having a cap that closes "like the door of a Mercedes" give
the impression I associate weight with quality; but that would be an
inaccurate representation. Nevertheless, is it not possible that most
vintage pens, even higher line models, were light because, in part,
materials for such pens were generally less expensive than for metal
models? In other words, I wonder if pen manufacturers then made light
weight a primary design criterion? Somehow (given all the metal and
filagree "oldies" I see pictured in Pen World, etc., etc.) I would
doubt that. (Yes, I realize there's probably a lot of variation in
weight even among metal pens.)
I can't argue with the speculation that extra weight, and the effort
required to change the direction of a mass while forming letters on the
page, would seem to add up to more energy expended and, thus, earlier
fatigue. But, in my experience with the Orpheo so far (and I've now
written a couple of pages straight through--true, not much), I find it
hard to believe the weight's going to be a problem. And, yes, I have
the large Orpheo. And, no, I don't hang around gyms and lift weights.
For most people, most applications today, I think this weight factor is
probably overemphasized as characteristic to avoid in a pen.
Finally, it's true, people wrote five days a week/eight hours a day
with their Watermans and Parkers and Conklins "way back when." But most
of us don't today, I'd guess; therefore, weight becomes less of a
factor in considering a purchase. One can enjoy heft, expensive or not,
without substantive reason for worry that it will prove a detriment.
HW
BLFritsche
>
> ... I wonder if pen manufacturers then made light weight a primary
> design criterion? ...
Don't know about vintage pens, but the current President of OMAS,
Raffaella Simoni Malaguti, has stated that the "lightness" of OMAS pens
is a result of a conscious decision on their part to make pens very
lightweight. The people at OMAS believe that lightweight (to the point
of being almost imperceptible) is a desirable feature, and they've said
they're committed to keeping this a top priority in at least some of
their lines (e.g., the vegetal resin and celluloid lines). It's
interesting that some people like their pens to be lightweight to point
of being almost imperceptible whereas others prefer a substantial-
feeling pen. I really think it's a matter of personal preference which
has no bearing whatsoever on quality.
Bernadette
--
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bfri...@home.com
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Scaupaug
>any tank driver who went against those mercedes and porche made tigers and
>panters, and they will tell you they would rather have had tigers or panters
>than Shermans - - the reason they prevailed is yes, thanks to the US
>automakers who turned out massive numbers of tanks, and then the tank crews
>and infantry who died in large numbers going up against superior equipment.
I'm fully aware of this. I also know that the firms turning out Tigers had a
head start in making such destructive equipment of several years. The people
making those Sheaffer triumphs thought pens were better than tanks until they
were FORCED to make other items of less value to society just to defend
themselves. Given equal time and desire I'm quite confident American industry
would have defeated the Tiger even if its numbers were equal to the Sherman.
If not with the bomb...then with an early version of the M1-Abrams or Pershing.
The Russians already had tanks to defeat the Tigers and they were the main
reason the Tigers were made in the first place. Rather intelligent....chosing
to fight BOTH Russians and Americans at the same time...(sar).
Same sized pens? OS balance pens STILL are better than a P1000. Fully
striped, larger capacity, gold filled trim, greater variety of nibs (I've never
seen a Pelikan 1000 with a two tone flex music nib for instance) etc....
Steve Lehman
BLFritsche wrote in message <387E48C8...@home.com>...
It's
>interesting that some people like their pens to be lightweight to point
>of being almost imperceptible whereas others prefer a substantial-
>feeling pen.
I would ask those who want 'substantial' how much writing they actually do.
To me it's like a lawnmower or vacuum cleaner that I push myself. I write
alot - I agree with Omas, I want lightness.
I really think it's a matter of personal preference which
>has no bearing whatsoever on quality.
For high end pens, quality is not even an issue. S.T. Dupont makes pens to
die for. So does Omas. But the fake Mont Blancs on the table downtown are
heavy brass. That should say something.
Steve L.
Jailhouse Psych
saying that goes something like "good artists may borrow, but great artists
outright steal." Please be flattered. I think pens in terms of cars might be
useful heuristic, so if I may continue:
To debate "pen weight" or "nib flex" apart from each other is a kin to arguing
who makes the best 6 cylinder engine or 5 speed transmission. Unless one is
putting together a custom vehicle from parts, most of us buy a total vehicle of
which the drive train is more important to some than to others. So too is it
with pens.
The M800 has a well matched nib to body weight/balance combination. The Omas
14kt./18kt. nibs match the lighter weight body of the Paragons beautifully.
Whether you prefer your upholstery in the form of celluloid, plastic, MB faux
glass, stainless or brass is a matter of taste.
It is possible for a fountain pen to be too light. I have tried the Caran d'
Ache Equinoxe on numerous occasions and find that I push the pen around letters
like no other pen. Here's a pen that's lighter than a Paragon, but because the
nib is nowhere as smooth or flexible as the Omas, the lack of mass of the
Equinoxe makes is actually more difficult to write.
What I've discovered, that my writing style actually changes with the ergonomics
of different pens. With the M800 my letters become neater, smaller and more
precise. With the Paragons I slash, burn and tear up the page like I'm tearing
up an Alpine road with with a sports car having little regard for maintaince
costs. When I write with my Pentallic it's like my driving a garbage truck in
reverse, spewing ink I want to get rid of all over the page.
In the end I feel it is the match and balance between nib design, weight,
balance and size that accounts for the writing experience. In pens . . as it is
in cars. Everything else is a matter of taste and passion.
Robert Helfrich
Maybe its my extremist nature, but I delight in the big Paragon and the
big 360 with their light weight and also like the Titanic, Cielo, M-1000,
L'etlon, and Rotring 600. Its those middling pens that are neither large
nor small, neither heavy nor light (neither stub nib nor fine-extra fine).
Bob
>
BLFritsche
You're on to something here, Bob. Come to think of it, my favorite pens
are either reeeeeeally light or quite heavy (or substantial). On one
end of the continuum I absolutely love my Omas Celluloids (light as
feathers). On the other end of the continuum I love my Pen Plus
Greenbronce Celluloid (a larger version of the Visconti Anniversary
Voyager). The Pen Plus pen is twice as heavy as the Omas. Sounds like
a big difference doesn't it? But the Greenbronce pen weighs only 8
tenths of an ounce with cap off, while the Omas weighs four tenths of an
ounce with the cap off (I usually write with caps off, unless the
barrels are just too short---e.g., Aurora Optimas). I have to agree
with Steve, though. I wouldn't want to have to write for hours with
that Greenbronce pen. A lighter weight pen would be less likely to
cause fatigue. On the other hand, Nick also has a point---a relatively
heavy pen with the right width for your hand, the right nib, and
excellent balance may be less fatiguing than a lighter pen with a draggy
nib and width that doesn't fit your hand. Do love those stubs and
fines, though. Omas's 585 fines are divine. If you like fines, try
one. They are out of this world. Their 585 mediums make great stubs.
Take care,
so what
>> ask
>>any tank driver who went against those mercedes and porche made tigers and
>
Mentioning a Benz to Scaupaug is like talking to him about MB. He ain't
gonna budge! Sheaffers and Chevys!
(National Anthem playing in the background)
anonymous
Thaddeus L. Olczyk
with then lighter pens. Get a clue about physics.
If two pens have the same balance then yes the lighter pen will be
eawsier to write with. But a poorly balanced pen can take four or five
times as much effort to write with as a well balanced pen.
Consider for example a pen with an extremely high center of balance
( one measure of balance ) would require you to press harder with the
finger in front to cancel the imparted torque. Of course you also have
to push the pen harder to make up for the increased resisted. Basic
result: you spend more effort to keep the pen from spinning then in
actual writing.
Further a poorly balanced oen requires you to squeese it harder
thereby increasing hand fatigue.
I've written for long periods of time ( four -five hours at a shot,
much longer if you allow for a few half-hour breaks ), with both pens
that were light and pens that were heavy. And I can say in no
uncertain terms that with some heavy pens I fealt less stain then with
some lighter pens.
On 13 Jan 2000 19:33:36 GMT, fdu...@aol.com (FDubiel) wrote:
>>Basically, its all well to speculate, but I merely point to the millions of
>>vintage fountain pens made back when pens were used on a daily basis, all
>>day, five days a week. They were light in weight. And higher quality pens
>>were not heavier than inexpensive pens.
>
>Excellent point!
Is it? Consider the contruction of heavier pens. Several layers of
laquer, or metalic bodies. More expensive construction, more expensive
pen. Weren't that many people back then willing to pay ( the
equivalent ) $500/pen.
>One of the chief advantages of plastic pens, when introduced
>in the 1920s, were the fact that they were lighter than rubber pens and
>therefore, advertised as needing less effort to use.
And we know that advertising always tells the truth.
>periods, feel too heavy in a shirt pocket, and due to simply weight more likely
>to be damaged in some way when dropped.
At first thought I would tend to agree but upon further review--
if on falling the nib hits on the side well in both cases it hits with
the same speed so the damage would be roughly equal. If the nib
hits point first ( probably toast in both cases anyway ) then the nib
on the heavier pen will feel more force from the body. But in that
case I suspect the heavier pen will have a tendency to fall cap first
( harder to get it rotating, it's moment will likely dictate that as
the optimal position). The only way to know for sure is to drop a
number of pens.
If the body hits first, well yes the heavier pen is likely to feel
more force, but it is made from more durable materials ( metal bends
plastic cracks ).
Steve Lehman
Karl wrote in message <85ni9m$cl...@imsp212.netvigator.com>...
>>You're right, the Dupont is heavier than an M800, as holding one of
>>them in each hand quickly reveals. I just weighed both. I didn't remove
>>ink, so this isn't very precise, but gives some sense of the magnitude
>>of the difference. Pelikan: 29.8 grams. Dupont: 49.0 grams.
>
>heavier than Dupont.
I assume that you are really referring to balance; otherwise your math
skills are wanting.
I write both pen without cap on.
I write wit the cap on, and if the only way for a large Orpheo to be
comfortable is to use it without cap, then I don't need it.
and looks like a Parker 51, not
>surprising considering its vintage.
Considering the pen was designed in the mid 1960s, about 30 years later than
the Parker 51,(and except for the semi hooded nib, doesn't really look like
a 51) I think you mean the Parker 45, which the Lamy 2000 DOES look a lot
like, and was designed around the same time.
(The filling system of Dupont is
>boring, fountain pen without a piston filling system is only half a
fountain
>pen, however good the nib, which Dupont certainly has.)
Gee, all those collectors of early eye dropper pens only collecting half
pens....
SL
I agree, the ST Dupont Orpheo is a good pen, and the Lamy 2000 is too, as is
the Pelikan 800.
But all this comparison is relative. I'll take a Pelikan 800 over an
Orpheo, but I prefer a vintage Senior Duofold over ANY new pen.
H. Whelply
Olczyk) wrote:
> For those who say that heavier pens are generically easier to write
> with then lighter pens. Get a clue about physics.
> If two pens have the same balance then yes the lighter pen will be
> eawsier to write with. But a poorly balanced pen can take four or
> five
> times as much effort to write with as a well balanced pen.
> Consider for example a pen with an extremely high center of balance
> ( one measure of balance ) would require you to press harder with
> the
> finger in front to cancel the imparted torque. Of course you also
> have
> to push the pen harder to make up for the increased resisted. Basic
> result: you spend more effort to keep the pen from spinning then in
> actual writing.
> Further a poorly balanced oen requires you to squeese it harder
> thereby increasing hand fatigue.
Well, maybe I hold pens in a strange or unusual way, but the capped end
of the pen sits or lies cradled at the back of the "U" formed by thumb
and index finger. Hence, it's supported by my hand, which I'm quite
capable of doing for either light or heavy pens, even though I don't
work out in a gym, because (let's face it) even so-called heavy pens
are not really weighty in the overall scheme of things. So, torque is a
non-issue.
Given that, "balance" is also mostly a non-issue. And I find your
implicit definition of "balance" interesting--apparently an open,
capped pen that remains level when a fulcrum is placed at a point in
its middle is, literally, balanced. At least you have a definition.
But, again, I'm not sure that really makes a pen easier to use.
In general, I appreciate your comments that, overall, seem to support
the notion that relatively greater weight in a pen is not necessarily a
bad thing, and may even be advantageous.
Thanks!
H. Whelply
<nor...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> ...What I've discovered, that my writing style actually changes with
> the ergonomics
> of different pens...
So, I'm not alone in having what sometime seem to be different
personalities emerging on paper as I change pens! You're absolutely
right! It's amazing, to me, the difference different pens make in the
character of the writing they produce in the same hand, in the same
writing session.
> ...In the end I feel it is the match and balance between nib design,
> weight,
> balance and size that accounts for the writing experience. In pens
> . . as it is
> in cars. Everything else is a matter of taste and passion.
Amen!
Peter Vos
>
> In article <387E82A2...@frontiernet.net>, Jailhouse Psych
> <nor...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> > ...What I've discovered, that my writing style actually changes with
> > the ergonomics
> > of different pens...
>
> So, I'm not alone in having what sometime seem to be different
> personalities emerging on paper as I change pens! You're absolutely
> right! It's amazing, to me, the difference different pens make in the
> character of the writing they produce in the same hand, in the same
> writing session.
>
definitely not....
There is no question I write differently with a namiki VP than I do when
usingthe namiki falcon. to my mind though, its the difference between
pen nibs that has most of the impact.
regarding the weight/balance issue.... let's compare apples to apples..
I checked out the Lamy 2000 edition 2000 - the stainless steel one,
which presumably is balanced identically to the standard Lamy 2000...
only significantly heavier.... it felt a little different moving around
on the paper, but not significantly, which is surprising because it
probably weighs three times as much... the only complaint I had with it
was that the cap on the LE needs to be pushed down really hard onto the
barrel to keep it from slipping off... presumably because of its greater
weight.
On the other hand celluloid Skylines have a TOTALLY different feel
compared to the gold filled capped versions. not better or worse, just
different.... I suspect that the Pelikan flavors would be the same ...
on the extreme weight side, I definitely prefer writing with the Rotring
600 UNposted.... it's the only one I do that with... gee... I wonder
what a celluloid version would be like? probably like caffeine free,
sugar free, Coke....
Karl
>them in each hand quickly reveals. I just weighed both. I didn't remove
>ink, so this isn't very precise, but gives some sense of the magnitude
>of the difference. Pelikan: 29.8 grams. Dupont: 49.0 grams.
I have M800 and the Dupont. My feeling is that the Pelikan is actually
heavier than Dupont. This is mainly due to the fact that M800 seems to be
more end-heavy whereas Dupont is more evenly balanced. Remember M800 has
brass component at its end, perhaps M600 might prove to be a better-balanced
pen. I write both pen without cap on. The Dupont is not heavy because its
balance is sooo good, but with cap on, the pen is truly heavy because the
weight of the cap, which is almost the same as the pen itself.
M800 has the most wonderful filling system and very smooth, some say
smoother than its nib.
Both pen have wonderful nibs.
Recently however I have been using Lamy 2000. My Lamy 2000 nib is more
flexible than the above two pens, it is light and has got piston system. The
nib is as smooth as the above two pens and looks like a Parker 51, not
surprising considering its vintage. The front section can be screwed out,
just like Pelikan's nib. I am very satisfied with my Lamy 2000. It is cool,
quiet and strong. The clip is actually made from a solid
piece of metal and discreetly on the clip you can find the logo "Lamy" and
"Germany" (imprinted inside the clip!) A pen worth having! A misery pen and
a
long surviving pen too!
All my pens are medium, I have tried fine nib and find them to be either
scratchy, or the angle of writing hard to adjust to. If I want fine writing,
I'll use rollerball instead. And when buying a fountain pen, always test
drive them. It is true every fountain is different, sometimes it is a
miracle, sometimes a diaster.
My hand is not big, so my order of preference as far as feel of writing is
concerned is : Dupont, Lamy 2000 and M800. But in terms of pen construction
the order becomes: M800, Lamy 2000, Dupont. (The filling system of Dupont is
boring, fountain pen without a piston filling system is only half a fountain
pen, however good the nib, which Dupont certainly has.)
Life is short, so enjoy it and buy all three!
Karl
BLFritsche
>
> I definitely prefer writing with the Rotring 600 UNposted.... it's
> the only one I do that with... gee... I wonder what a celluloid
> version would be like? probably like caffeine free, sugar free,
> Coke....
Using a shoe metaphor, the Rotring 600 is like a pair of durable
clod-hoppers. If it were made of celluloid, it might be closer to the
shoes Michael Johnson wore when he won his two gold medals at the '96
Olympics.
BLF
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
bfri...@home.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
James Daniel
writes better than any pen I've ever used. I'd lose the Lamer. . er. .
.Lamy. They're just too "advanced". Plus, they got that Frech-sounding
name!!! aaaarrrrghh....:) (complete "sar") as seen supra.
JD
Arkansaw. . where we still use dip pens, utilizing the inkwell
integrally-mounted within our desks. . . and I have to go to school early
tomorrow, to fire the stove for the rest of us. (Damn!)
Steve Lehman <leh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:85nk1m$of4$1...@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> Karl wrote in message <85ni9m$cl...@imsp212.netvigator.com>...
> >>You're right, the Dupont is heavier than an M800, as holding one of
> >>them in each hand quickly reveals. I just weighed both. I didn't remove
> >>ink, so this isn't very precise, but gives some sense of the magnitude
> >>of the difference. Pelikan: 29.8 grams. Dupont: 49.0 grams.
> >
> >I have M800 and the Dupont. My feeling is that the Pelikan is actually
> >heavier than Dupont.
> I assume that you are really referring to balance; otherwise your math
> skills are wanting.
>
>
> I write both pen without cap on.
>
> I write wit the cap on, and if the only way for a large Orpheo to be
> comfortable is to use it without cap, then I don't need it.
>
>
>
> and looks like a Parker 51, not
> >surprising considering its vintage.
> Considering the pen was designed in the mid 1960s, about 30 years later
than
> the Parker 51,(and except for the semi hooded nib, doesn't really look
like
> a 51) I think you mean the Parker 45, which the Lamy 2000 DOES look a lot
> like, and was designed around the same time.
>
> (The filling system of Dupont is
> >boring, fountain pen without a piston filling system is only half a
> fountain
> >pen, however good the nib, which Dupont certainly has.)
>
Angela Moak
I collect pens that feel good to me. I can't explain the physics of
writing or anything else. I have a government job that requires a great
deal of note taking (what government job doesn't require lots of red
tape, er I mean paperwork). I have two Pelikan M800 and an M1000. I
love them all. The only Pelikan I have ever had any problem with has
been my 800 blue demonstrator.
I got the M1000 from Christian Fricke in Wurzberg, Germany. I think it
cost me less than $300. He posts on the Pen Central odds and end
section. His prices are always fair and reasonable. Gary Freeman here
in Allen, TX also has good prices. He's frequently on eBay and
sometimes brings pens to our show. I bought my blue M800 from him at a
really reasonable price. If you want his email address let me know.
The Pelikans are a little more reserved and less flashy, but they are
good quality and they hold a lot of ink.
I also really like the Aurora Optima line. Some of the LE's in that
line are really flashy. Depends on my mood as to whether I use the
Aurora or the Pelikan. I did notice in a recent interview with a
witness that my M1000 was very loud on the paper. Guess I only noticed
because of the deadly quiet in the room.
Really, I think it boils down to what you are comfortable with. I like
the pens with the bigger diameter because I think I have less hand
strain with these pens. I tend to choke up on pens and the larger
diameter pens make me relax my grip and therefore the writing fatigue.
I also just like the heavier pen, regardless of the physics behind it.
--
Regards,
Angela
Remove ".now" from address to reply.
so what
>the pens with the bigger diameter because I think I have less hand
>strain with these pens. I tend to choke up on pens and the larger
>diameter pens make me relax my grip and therefore the writing fatigue.
That's it, Angela! That's why I have always liked larger pens. Never could
figure out why companies think a "Ladies' pen" should be so small, you could
get it confused with a lipbrush or mascara tube. My fave pens are the LeMan
100, and Duofold Centennial. Been thinking (yes, Professor, and I am still
thinking about it) of treating myself to a Primavera or Delta 365 one day.
satrap
Angela Moak
Treat yourself to the Primavera. I have one that I LOVE. It may be a
little expensive since it's an LE, but we all should be extra nice and
treat ourselves every now and then. :)Angela
--
Bruce Herbitter
Satrap agreed with:
> >I like the pens with the bigger diameter because I think I have less hand
> >strain with these pens.
Hmm, I find that there is a happy medium for me between the M800 which is too
large and the M400 which is too small.... AHHH M600!!! Well, and a whole bunch
of other winners. Namiki Elite, Omas Paragon, Waterman Rhapsody are all "medium"
and write well for me...
Bruce