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Anarchists Detained by Counter-Terrorist Police
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Dan Clore
Aug 20, 2012, 7:19:23 PM8/20/12
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News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
http://anarchistnews.org/content/anarchists-detained-counter-terrorist-police-return-swiss-conference
Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:59
Anarchists Detained by Counter-Terrorist Police on Return from Swiss
Conference [plus French, Spanish, German translations]
For the past week, thousands of anarchists from across Europe have been
converging in St.Imier, Switzerland to celebrate the 140th anniversary
of the founding of the Anarchist international. The gathering (8th-12th
August 2012) took the form of a festival and educational, with music,
films and entertainment as well as workshops and discussions.
On returning from the St Imier gathering, two anarchists, one a member
of the UK Anarchist Federation, were detained for nearly two hours at
Heathrow by SO15 (counter-terrorist) police. During the detention, the
anarchists were told that their normal rights did not apply, and had
their names, addresses, email addresses, DNA and fingerprints taken. The
detained anarchists were also forced to sign forms – which may or may
not be legal – waiving their rights to silence and a solicitor. Police
also conducted a thorough search of personal possessions, photocopied
literature and passports and took information from phones and cameras.
During the detention, the police constantly accused the anarchists of
lying about involvement in criminal activity and alleged that they would
be conducting follow-up police action against one of the detained
anarchists. In addition to this, SO15 officers asked a number of
inflammatory, irrelevant and offensive questions, including ‘what would
you do if someone raped your mother?’ evidently in an attempt to cause
emotional upset and illicit angry or violent responses. One member (28)
who did not want to be named for fear of reprisals from the police, said
"We were treated like criminals. I told them I went to the congress as I
am an amateur journalist and I write articles about activism. They saw
my note book, camera and Dictaphone but they said I was lying. One
officer said 'You said you are an anarchist, I've seen anarchists on the
news, they are violent, throw molotov cocktails and disrupt people’s
lives not write articles'".
The counter terrorist officers either didn't know or chose to ignore
that, during the first day of the gathering, the International of
Anarchist Federations (Of which the UK Anarchist Federation is a member)
had issued a statement rejecting all terrorist tactics as a means of
achieving an anarchist society.
In contrast to the actions of the UK security forces, the local press
and residents in St. Imier reported very positively on the anarchist
gathering.
With this incident, we are seeing a further slide towards political
policing and the criminalisation of political ideologies. The two
detained anarchists have not had any involvement in any illegal or
violent activity, or any activity that would concern the
counter-terrorist police. As in the past, when Metropolitan police
called on people to give information about local anarchists ( Anarchists
should be reported, advises Westminster anti-terror police | UK news |
The Guardian ), anarchists suffered harassment for their political
viewpoint.
As class-struggle anarchists, we believe that the state does little
except serve the interests of the rich and powerful at the expense of
ordinary people. This is seen clearly when people who hold views
critical of the state are treated as criminals and terrorists. We seek
to create a classless society, based on freedom, equality and
co-operation. We believe in the capacity of ordinary people to run
society themselves, without the interference of bosses or politicians.
This incident was not in response to any crime and constitutes
repression and criminalisation of a political ideology.
Editors Notes:
Anarchism is a political philosophy that seeks to build an egalitarian
society in which mutual aid, co-operation and direct democracy replace
capitalism and the state.
The St Imier Congress was a gathering of anarchists from all over the
world to celebrate the 140th anniversary of the first international
anarchist gathering in the Swiss town of St Imier in 1872.
The Anarchist Federation is a federation of class struggle
anarchist-communists in the UK who seek to build an egalitarian society.
---
French translation
Anarchistes détenu-es par la police anti-terroriste à leur retour d'une
conférence en Suisse
La semaine dernière, des milliers d'anarchistes de toute l'Europe ont
convergé à St Imier en Suisse pour célébrer le 140ème anniversaire de la
création de l'Internationale anarchiste. Cette rencontre a pris la forme
d'un festival et d'une conférence, avec de la musique, des films et des
divertissements aussi bien que des ateliers et des débats.
A leur retour de St Imier, deux anarchistes, l'un-e d'entre elles-eux
membre de la Fédération Anarchiste du Royaume-Uni, ont été détenu-es
pendant près de deux heures à l'aéroport d'Heathrow par la police SO15
(anti-terroriste). Durant leur détention, les anarchistes ont été
informé-es que leurs droits n'étaient exceptionnellement pas applicables
et ont du donner leur nom, adresse, adresses email, ADN et empreintes
digitales. Les anarchistes détenu-es ont également été contraint-es de
signer des formulaires -dont la valeur légale est incertaine- dans
lesquels ils-elles renonçaient à leur droit à garder le silence et à un
avocat. La police a également effectué une fouille complète de leurs
effets personnels, a photocopié leur passeport et la propagande
qu'ils-elles transportaient et a copié l'information de leurs téléphones
et de leurs appareils photo.
Durant la détention, la police les a constamment accusé de mentir et
d'avoir pris part à des activités criminelles et ont prétendu qu'ils
allaient poursuivre l'enquête au sujet d'un-e des anarchistes détenu-es.
De plus, les agents SO15 ont posé un certain nombre de questions
provocatrices, insultantes et sans aucun rapport, y compris 'que
feriez-vous si quelqu'un violait votre mère?', une tentative évidente de
causer un tort émotionnel et de solliciter une réaction violente ou
hostile. L'un-e des membres (28 ans) qui n'a pas souhaité être nommé-e
par peur de représailles de la police, a déclaré “Nous avons été
traité-es comme des criminel-les. Je leur ai dit que j'étais allé-e au
congrès en tant que journaliste amateur-trice et que j'écrivais des
articles sur le militantisme. Ils ont vu mon carnet de notes, mon
appareil photo et mon dictaphone mais ils ont dit que je mentais. Un
officier a dit “vous dites être anarchiste, j'ai vu des anarchistes aux
infos: ils-elles sont violent-es, jettent des cocktails molotov et
dérangent la vie des gens, elles-ils n'écrivent pas d'articles.””.
Les agents anti-terroristes ignoraient, ou on décidé d'ignorer le fait
que le premier jour du congrès, l'Internationale des Fédérations
Anarchistes (dont la Fédération Anarchiste britannique est membre) a
fait une déclaration rejetant toute tactique terroriste comme moyen de
parvenir à une société anarchiste.
Contrairement aux actions des forces de sécurité britanniques, la presse
locale et les habitant-es de St Imier ont fait un bilan très positif des
rencontres anarchistes.
A travers cet incident, nous constatons une nouvelle dérive vers une
criminalisation des idéologies politiques au Royaume-Uni. Les deux
anarchistes détenu-es n'ont jamais été impliqué-es dans des actions
illégales ou violentes, ou aucune action qui relèverait de la police
anti-terroriste. Comme par le passé, lorsque la police métropolitaine de
Londres avait appelé à la dénonciation des anarchistes ( Anarchists
should be reported, advises Westminster anti-terror police | UK news |
The Guardian ), les anarchistes sont harcelé-es sur la base de leurs
idées politiques.
En tant qu'anarchistes de lutte de classe, nous pensons que l'état sert
les intérêts des riches et des puissant-es au détriment des intérêts des
gens ordinaires. On le voit de façon très claire lorsque des gens
critiques de l'état sont traitées comme des terroristes et des
criminel-les. Nous voulons une société sans classe, fondée sur la
liberté, l'égalité et la coopération. Nous croyons en la capacité des
gens ordinaires à gérer la société eux-elles-même, sans interférence des
patron-nes et des politicien-nes. Cet incident n'était pas en réaction à
un crime quelconque et constitue un acte de répression et de
criminalisation d'une idéologie politique.
---
Spanish translation
Dos anarquistas que regresan al Reino Unido de una conferencia en Suiza,
fueron detenidos, se les negó un abogado e interrogados por agentes de
lucha contra el terrorismo.
Durante la semana pasada, miles de anarquistas de todo el mundo han ido
convergiendo en St.Imier, Suiza, para celebrar el 140 aniversario de la
fundación de la Internacional Anarquista. La reunión tomó forma de un
festival con música, películas y entretenimiento, así como talleres y
debates.
Al regresar de la reunión de San Imier, dos anarquistas, una miembro de
la Federación Anarquista de Reino Unido, fueron detenidos durante casi
dos horas en Heathrow por el SO15 (antiterrorista) de inteligencia que
en un principio se negaron a identificarse a los detenidos. Durante la
detención, los anarquistas se les dijo que sus derechos normales no se
aplicaban, y tenían sus nombres, direcciones, direcciones de correo
electrónico, ADN, fotografías y huellas dactilares tomadas. Los
anarquistas detenidos fueron obligados a firmar los formularios - que
puede o puede no ser legal - renuncia a sus derechos a guardar silencio
y un procurador. La policía también llevó a cabo una búsqueda minuciosa
de sus pertenencias personales, la literatura fotocopiada y pasaportes y
se llevó la información de los teléfonos y cámaras.
Durante la detención, la policía acusó a los anarquistas constantemente
de mentir acerca de la participación en actividades delictivas y
alegaron que se llevaría a cabo una acción de seguimiento policial en
contra de uno de los anarquistas detenidos. Además de esto, SO15
oficiales pidieron una serie de preguntas inflamatorias, irrelevantes y
ofensivas, incluyendo "¿Qué harías si alguien violó a tu madre?"
Evidentemente, en un intento de provocar respuestas emocionales de ira o
malestar violentos e ilegales. Uno de los miembros (28) que no quiso ser
identificado por temor a represalias de la policía, dijo: "Nos trataron
como delincuentes. Yo les dije que fui al congreso ya que soy un
periodista aficionado, y escribo artículos sobre activismo. Ellos vieron
mi cuaderno de notas, cámara y dictáfono, pero me dijeron que estaba
mintiendo. ", Dijo un oficial-Usted dijo que usted es un anarquista, he
visto a los anarquistas en las noticias, que son violentos, lanzar
cócteles molotov y perturbar la vida de la gente no escribe artículos ".
Los oficiales de lucha contra el terrorismo, o bien no sabía o prefirió
ignorar que, durante el primer día de la reunión, la Internacional de
Federaciones Anarquistas (del cual el Reino Unido Federación Anarquista
es miembro) había emitido una declaración rechazando todas las tácticas
terroristas como medio de lograr una sociedad anarquista.
En contraste con las acciones de las fuerzas de seguridad del Reino
Unido, la prensa local y los residentes en St.Imier informó de manera
muy positiva en la reunión anarquista.
Con este incidente, estamos viendo una diapositiva más hacia la política
policial y la criminalización de las ideologías políticas. Los dos
anarquistas detenidos no han tenido ninguna participación en ninguna
actividad ilegal o violenta, o cualquier actividad que se referiría a la
policía contra el terrorismo. Al igual que en el pasado, cuando la
policía metropolitana hicieron un llamamiento a la gente a dar
información acerca de los anarquistas locales (Anarquistas deben ser
reportados, informa Westminster policía antiterrorista | Reino Unido
Noticias | The Guardian), los anarquistas sufrieron el acoso de su punto
de vista político.
Como anarquistas de lucha de clases, creemos que el estado hace muy
poco, excepto servir a los intereses de los ricos y poderosos a expensas
de la gente común. Esto se ve claramente cuando las personas que tienen
puntos de vista crítico de la situación son tratados como criminales y
terroristas. Buscamos crear una sociedad sin clases, basada en la
libertad, la igualdad y la cooperación. Creemos en la capacidad de la
gente común para ejecutar la sociedad a sí mismos, sin la interferencia
de los jefes o los políticos. Este incidente no fue en respuesta a un
crimen y constituye la represión y la criminalización de una ideología
política.
---
German translation
englische anarchist innen nach rückkehr aus saint-imier in heathrow
vorübergehend inhaftiert
während der letzen woche kamen tausende anarchist_innen aus europa in
saint-Imier, schweiz, zusammen, um das 140. jubiläum der gründung der
anarchistischen internationalen zu feiern. das treffen hatte die form
eines festivals und einer bildungsveranstaltung mit musik, filmen,
unterhaltung, ebenso mit workshops und diskussionen.
bei der rückkehr vom treffen in saint-imier wurden zwei anarchist_innen,
einer von ihnen ist mitglied der anarchistischen föderation
großbritannien, für nahezu zwei stunden am londoner flughafen heathrow
vom so15 (terrorismusbekämpfung) in gewahrsam genommen. während der
ingewahrsamnahme wurde den anarchist_innen gesagt, dass ihre normalen
rechte keine gültigkeit hätten. ihre namen, adressen, emailadressen, dna
und fingerabdrücke wurden genommen. die in gewahrsam genommenen
anarchist_innen wurden auch gezwungen, verzichtserklärungen zu
unterschreiben – legal oder nicht legal – betreffend ihr recht zu
schweigen und ihr recht auf einen rechtsbeistand. die polizei führte
auch eine gründliche durchsuchung des persönlichen besitzes durch,
fotokopierte literatur und ausweise und entnahm informationen von
telefonen und kameras.
während der ingewahrsamnahme beschuldigte die polizei ständig die
anarchist_innen zu lügen in bezug auf ihre beteiligung an kriminellen
aktivitäten und behauptete, dass sie weitere polizeiaktionen gegen
eine_n der in gewahrsam genommenen anarchist_innen durchführen würden.
zusätzlich stellten so15-offizier_innen eine reihe von provokanten,
irrelevanten und beleidigenden fragen, einschließlich „was würden sie
tun, wenn jemand ihre mutter vergewaltigen würde?“. augenscheinlich
taten sie dies, um einen gefühlsausbruch und strafbare, wütende oder
gewalttätige antworten zu provozieren. ein mitglied (28), das aus angst
vor polizeirepressionen nicht namentlich genannt werden möchte, sagte:
„wir wurden wie kriminelle behandelt. ich sagte ihnen, dass ich zum
kongress ging, weil ich amateurjournalist bin und artikel über
aktivismus schreibe. sie sahen mein notebook, meine kamera und mein
diktiergerät, aber sie sagten, ich würde lügen. ein_e offizier_in sagte:
„sie sagten, dass sie ein_e anarchist_in seien. ich habe anarchist_innen
in den nachrichten gesehen. sie sind gewalttätig, werfen
molotovcocktails und stören den alltag der leute. sie schreiben keine
artikel.“
die terrorismusbekämpfungsoffizier_innen wussten nichts davon oder
entschieden sich dazu es zu ignorieren, dass während des ersten tages
des treffens, die internationale der anarchistischen föderationen (bei
der die anarchistische förderation großbritannien mitglied ist) eine
stellungnahme veröffentlicht hatten, die alle terroristischen taktiken,
um eine anarchistische gesellschaft zu erreichen, ablehnt.
im gegensatz zu den britischen sicherheitskräften berichteten die lokale
presse und die einwohner_innen von saint-imier sehr positiv über das
anarchistische treffen.
mit diesem zwischenfall sehen wir einen weiteren ruck richtung
politischer polizeiarbeit und der kriminalisierung politischer
weltanschauungen. die zwei in gewahrsam genommenen anarchist_innen waren
nie in irgendeine illegale oder gewalttätige aktion involviert oder in
irgendeine aktion, die die terrorabwehr betreffen würde.
wie in der vergangenheit, als die londoner polizei die menschen dazu
aufrief, informationen über örtliche anarchist_innen weiterzugeben (
„anarchist_innen sollten gemeldet werden, ermahnt die westminster
antiterrorpolizei“ | uk news | the guardian ), erlitten anarchist_innen
schikane für ihre politische überzeugung.
als klassenkämpferische anarchist_innen glauben wir, dass der staat
wenig tut, außer den interessen der reichen und mächtigen zu dienen auf
kosten der normalen leute. dies tritt klar zu tage, wenn menschen, die
kritische ansichten in bezug auf den staat vertreten, wie kriminelle und
terrorist_innen behandelt werden. wir wollen eine klassenlose
gesellschaft schaffen, die auf freiheit, gleichheit und kooperation
basiert. wir glauben an die fähigkeit der normalen leute, die
gesellschaft selbst zu verwalten ohne die einmischung durch bosse und
politiker_innen. dieser zwischenfall war keine reaktion auf irgendein
verbrechen. er zeigt die unterdrückung und kriminalisierung einer
politischen überzeugung.
anmerkungen:
anarchsimus ist eine politische philisophie, die versucht eine
gesellschaft der gleichen, in der gegenseitige hilfe, kooperation, und
direkte demokratie den kapitalismus und den staat ablösen, zu errichten.
der kongress in saint-imier war ein treffen von anarchist_innen aus der
ganzen welt, um das 140. jubiläum des ersten treffens der
anarchistischen internationalen in der schweizer stadt saint-imier im
jahr 1872 zu feiern.
die anarchistische föderation ist eine föderation von
anarcho-kommunist_innen in großbritannien, die eine gesellschaft der
gleichen errichten will.
---
http://www.afed.org.uk
--
Dan Clore
New book: _Weird Words: A Lovecraftian Lexicon_:
http://tinyurl.com/yd3bxkw
My collected fiction: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-unspeakable-and-others/6124911
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
"From the point of view of the defense of our society,
there only exists one danger -- that workers succeed in
speaking to each other about their condition and their
aspirations _without intermediaries_."
--Censor (Gianfranco Sanguinetti), _The Real Report on
the Last Chance to Save Capitalism in Italy_
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
http://anarchistnews.org/content/anarchists-detained-counter-terrorist-police-return-swiss-conference
Thursday, 16 August 2012 17:59
Anarchists Detained by Counter-Terrorist Police on Return from Swiss
Conference [plus French, Spanish, German translations]
For the past week, thousands of anarchists from across Europe have been
converging in St.Imier, Switzerland to celebrate the 140th anniversary
of the founding of the Anarchist international. The gathering (8th-12th
August 2012) took the form of a festival and educational, with music,
films and entertainment as well as workshops and discussions.
On returning from the St Imier gathering, two anarchists, one a member
of the UK Anarchist Federation, were detained for nearly two hours at
Heathrow by SO15 (counter-terrorist) police. During the detention, the
anarchists were told that their normal rights did not apply, and had
their names, addresses, email addresses, DNA and fingerprints taken. The
detained anarchists were also forced to sign forms – which may or may
not be legal – waiving their rights to silence and a solicitor. Police
also conducted a thorough search of personal possessions, photocopied
literature and passports and took information from phones and cameras.
During the detention, the police constantly accused the anarchists of
lying about involvement in criminal activity and alleged that they would
be conducting follow-up police action against one of the detained
anarchists. In addition to this, SO15 officers asked a number of
inflammatory, irrelevant and offensive questions, including ‘what would
you do if someone raped your mother?’ evidently in an attempt to cause
emotional upset and illicit angry or violent responses. One member (28)
who did not want to be named for fear of reprisals from the police, said
"We were treated like criminals. I told them I went to the congress as I
am an amateur journalist and I write articles about activism. They saw
my note book, camera and Dictaphone but they said I was lying. One
officer said 'You said you are an anarchist, I've seen anarchists on the
news, they are violent, throw molotov cocktails and disrupt people’s
lives not write articles'".
The counter terrorist officers either didn't know or chose to ignore
that, during the first day of the gathering, the International of
Anarchist Federations (Of which the UK Anarchist Federation is a member)
had issued a statement rejecting all terrorist tactics as a means of
achieving an anarchist society.
In contrast to the actions of the UK security forces, the local press
and residents in St. Imier reported very positively on the anarchist
gathering.
With this incident, we are seeing a further slide towards political
policing and the criminalisation of political ideologies. The two
detained anarchists have not had any involvement in any illegal or
violent activity, or any activity that would concern the
counter-terrorist police. As in the past, when Metropolitan police
called on people to give information about local anarchists ( Anarchists
should be reported, advises Westminster anti-terror police | UK news |
The Guardian ), anarchists suffered harassment for their political
viewpoint.
As class-struggle anarchists, we believe that the state does little
except serve the interests of the rich and powerful at the expense of
ordinary people. This is seen clearly when people who hold views
critical of the state are treated as criminals and terrorists. We seek
to create a classless society, based on freedom, equality and
co-operation. We believe in the capacity of ordinary people to run
society themselves, without the interference of bosses or politicians.
This incident was not in response to any crime and constitutes
repression and criminalisation of a political ideology.
Editors Notes:
Anarchism is a political philosophy that seeks to build an egalitarian
society in which mutual aid, co-operation and direct democracy replace
capitalism and the state.
The St Imier Congress was a gathering of anarchists from all over the
world to celebrate the 140th anniversary of the first international
anarchist gathering in the Swiss town of St Imier in 1872.
The Anarchist Federation is a federation of class struggle
anarchist-communists in the UK who seek to build an egalitarian society.
---
French translation
Anarchistes détenu-es par la police anti-terroriste à leur retour d'une
conférence en Suisse
La semaine dernière, des milliers d'anarchistes de toute l'Europe ont
convergé à St Imier en Suisse pour célébrer le 140ème anniversaire de la
création de l'Internationale anarchiste. Cette rencontre a pris la forme
d'un festival et d'une conférence, avec de la musique, des films et des
divertissements aussi bien que des ateliers et des débats.
A leur retour de St Imier, deux anarchistes, l'un-e d'entre elles-eux
membre de la Fédération Anarchiste du Royaume-Uni, ont été détenu-es
pendant près de deux heures à l'aéroport d'Heathrow par la police SO15
(anti-terroriste). Durant leur détention, les anarchistes ont été
informé-es que leurs droits n'étaient exceptionnellement pas applicables
et ont du donner leur nom, adresse, adresses email, ADN et empreintes
digitales. Les anarchistes détenu-es ont également été contraint-es de
signer des formulaires -dont la valeur légale est incertaine- dans
lesquels ils-elles renonçaient à leur droit à garder le silence et à un
avocat. La police a également effectué une fouille complète de leurs
effets personnels, a photocopié leur passeport et la propagande
qu'ils-elles transportaient et a copié l'information de leurs téléphones
et de leurs appareils photo.
Durant la détention, la police les a constamment accusé de mentir et
d'avoir pris part à des activités criminelles et ont prétendu qu'ils
allaient poursuivre l'enquête au sujet d'un-e des anarchistes détenu-es.
De plus, les agents SO15 ont posé un certain nombre de questions
provocatrices, insultantes et sans aucun rapport, y compris 'que
feriez-vous si quelqu'un violait votre mère?', une tentative évidente de
causer un tort émotionnel et de solliciter une réaction violente ou
hostile. L'un-e des membres (28 ans) qui n'a pas souhaité être nommé-e
par peur de représailles de la police, a déclaré “Nous avons été
traité-es comme des criminel-les. Je leur ai dit que j'étais allé-e au
congrès en tant que journaliste amateur-trice et que j'écrivais des
articles sur le militantisme. Ils ont vu mon carnet de notes, mon
appareil photo et mon dictaphone mais ils ont dit que je mentais. Un
officier a dit “vous dites être anarchiste, j'ai vu des anarchistes aux
infos: ils-elles sont violent-es, jettent des cocktails molotov et
dérangent la vie des gens, elles-ils n'écrivent pas d'articles.””.
Les agents anti-terroristes ignoraient, ou on décidé d'ignorer le fait
que le premier jour du congrès, l'Internationale des Fédérations
Anarchistes (dont la Fédération Anarchiste britannique est membre) a
fait une déclaration rejetant toute tactique terroriste comme moyen de
parvenir à une société anarchiste.
Contrairement aux actions des forces de sécurité britanniques, la presse
locale et les habitant-es de St Imier ont fait un bilan très positif des
rencontres anarchistes.
A travers cet incident, nous constatons une nouvelle dérive vers une
criminalisation des idéologies politiques au Royaume-Uni. Les deux
anarchistes détenu-es n'ont jamais été impliqué-es dans des actions
illégales ou violentes, ou aucune action qui relèverait de la police
anti-terroriste. Comme par le passé, lorsque la police métropolitaine de
Londres avait appelé à la dénonciation des anarchistes ( Anarchists
should be reported, advises Westminster anti-terror police | UK news |
The Guardian ), les anarchistes sont harcelé-es sur la base de leurs
idées politiques.
En tant qu'anarchistes de lutte de classe, nous pensons que l'état sert
les intérêts des riches et des puissant-es au détriment des intérêts des
gens ordinaires. On le voit de façon très claire lorsque des gens
critiques de l'état sont traitées comme des terroristes et des
criminel-les. Nous voulons une société sans classe, fondée sur la
liberté, l'égalité et la coopération. Nous croyons en la capacité des
gens ordinaires à gérer la société eux-elles-même, sans interférence des
patron-nes et des politicien-nes. Cet incident n'était pas en réaction à
un crime quelconque et constitue un acte de répression et de
criminalisation d'une idéologie politique.
---
Spanish translation
Dos anarquistas que regresan al Reino Unido de una conferencia en Suiza,
fueron detenidos, se les negó un abogado e interrogados por agentes de
lucha contra el terrorismo.
Durante la semana pasada, miles de anarquistas de todo el mundo han ido
convergiendo en St.Imier, Suiza, para celebrar el 140 aniversario de la
fundación de la Internacional Anarquista. La reunión tomó forma de un
festival con música, películas y entretenimiento, así como talleres y
debates.
Al regresar de la reunión de San Imier, dos anarquistas, una miembro de
la Federación Anarquista de Reino Unido, fueron detenidos durante casi
dos horas en Heathrow por el SO15 (antiterrorista) de inteligencia que
en un principio se negaron a identificarse a los detenidos. Durante la
detención, los anarquistas se les dijo que sus derechos normales no se
aplicaban, y tenían sus nombres, direcciones, direcciones de correo
electrónico, ADN, fotografías y huellas dactilares tomadas. Los
anarquistas detenidos fueron obligados a firmar los formularios - que
puede o puede no ser legal - renuncia a sus derechos a guardar silencio
y un procurador. La policía también llevó a cabo una búsqueda minuciosa
de sus pertenencias personales, la literatura fotocopiada y pasaportes y
se llevó la información de los teléfonos y cámaras.
Durante la detención, la policía acusó a los anarquistas constantemente
de mentir acerca de la participación en actividades delictivas y
alegaron que se llevaría a cabo una acción de seguimiento policial en
contra de uno de los anarquistas detenidos. Además de esto, SO15
oficiales pidieron una serie de preguntas inflamatorias, irrelevantes y
ofensivas, incluyendo "¿Qué harías si alguien violó a tu madre?"
Evidentemente, en un intento de provocar respuestas emocionales de ira o
malestar violentos e ilegales. Uno de los miembros (28) que no quiso ser
identificado por temor a represalias de la policía, dijo: "Nos trataron
como delincuentes. Yo les dije que fui al congreso ya que soy un
periodista aficionado, y escribo artículos sobre activismo. Ellos vieron
mi cuaderno de notas, cámara y dictáfono, pero me dijeron que estaba
mintiendo. ", Dijo un oficial-Usted dijo que usted es un anarquista, he
visto a los anarquistas en las noticias, que son violentos, lanzar
cócteles molotov y perturbar la vida de la gente no escribe artículos ".
Los oficiales de lucha contra el terrorismo, o bien no sabía o prefirió
ignorar que, durante el primer día de la reunión, la Internacional de
Federaciones Anarquistas (del cual el Reino Unido Federación Anarquista
es miembro) había emitido una declaración rechazando todas las tácticas
terroristas como medio de lograr una sociedad anarquista.
En contraste con las acciones de las fuerzas de seguridad del Reino
Unido, la prensa local y los residentes en St.Imier informó de manera
muy positiva en la reunión anarquista.
Con este incidente, estamos viendo una diapositiva más hacia la política
policial y la criminalización de las ideologías políticas. Los dos
anarquistas detenidos no han tenido ninguna participación en ninguna
actividad ilegal o violenta, o cualquier actividad que se referiría a la
policía contra el terrorismo. Al igual que en el pasado, cuando la
policía metropolitana hicieron un llamamiento a la gente a dar
información acerca de los anarquistas locales (Anarquistas deben ser
reportados, informa Westminster policía antiterrorista | Reino Unido
Noticias | The Guardian), los anarquistas sufrieron el acoso de su punto
de vista político.
Como anarquistas de lucha de clases, creemos que el estado hace muy
poco, excepto servir a los intereses de los ricos y poderosos a expensas
de la gente común. Esto se ve claramente cuando las personas que tienen
puntos de vista crítico de la situación son tratados como criminales y
terroristas. Buscamos crear una sociedad sin clases, basada en la
libertad, la igualdad y la cooperación. Creemos en la capacidad de la
gente común para ejecutar la sociedad a sí mismos, sin la interferencia
de los jefes o los políticos. Este incidente no fue en respuesta a un
crimen y constituye la represión y la criminalización de una ideología
política.
---
German translation
englische anarchist innen nach rückkehr aus saint-imier in heathrow
vorübergehend inhaftiert
während der letzen woche kamen tausende anarchist_innen aus europa in
saint-Imier, schweiz, zusammen, um das 140. jubiläum der gründung der
anarchistischen internationalen zu feiern. das treffen hatte die form
eines festivals und einer bildungsveranstaltung mit musik, filmen,
unterhaltung, ebenso mit workshops und diskussionen.
bei der rückkehr vom treffen in saint-imier wurden zwei anarchist_innen,
einer von ihnen ist mitglied der anarchistischen föderation
großbritannien, für nahezu zwei stunden am londoner flughafen heathrow
vom so15 (terrorismusbekämpfung) in gewahrsam genommen. während der
ingewahrsamnahme wurde den anarchist_innen gesagt, dass ihre normalen
rechte keine gültigkeit hätten. ihre namen, adressen, emailadressen, dna
und fingerabdrücke wurden genommen. die in gewahrsam genommenen
anarchist_innen wurden auch gezwungen, verzichtserklärungen zu
unterschreiben – legal oder nicht legal – betreffend ihr recht zu
schweigen und ihr recht auf einen rechtsbeistand. die polizei führte
auch eine gründliche durchsuchung des persönlichen besitzes durch,
fotokopierte literatur und ausweise und entnahm informationen von
telefonen und kameras.
während der ingewahrsamnahme beschuldigte die polizei ständig die
anarchist_innen zu lügen in bezug auf ihre beteiligung an kriminellen
aktivitäten und behauptete, dass sie weitere polizeiaktionen gegen
eine_n der in gewahrsam genommenen anarchist_innen durchführen würden.
zusätzlich stellten so15-offizier_innen eine reihe von provokanten,
irrelevanten und beleidigenden fragen, einschließlich „was würden sie
tun, wenn jemand ihre mutter vergewaltigen würde?“. augenscheinlich
taten sie dies, um einen gefühlsausbruch und strafbare, wütende oder
gewalttätige antworten zu provozieren. ein mitglied (28), das aus angst
vor polizeirepressionen nicht namentlich genannt werden möchte, sagte:
„wir wurden wie kriminelle behandelt. ich sagte ihnen, dass ich zum
kongress ging, weil ich amateurjournalist bin und artikel über
aktivismus schreibe. sie sahen mein notebook, meine kamera und mein
diktiergerät, aber sie sagten, ich würde lügen. ein_e offizier_in sagte:
„sie sagten, dass sie ein_e anarchist_in seien. ich habe anarchist_innen
in den nachrichten gesehen. sie sind gewalttätig, werfen
molotovcocktails und stören den alltag der leute. sie schreiben keine
artikel.“
die terrorismusbekämpfungsoffizier_innen wussten nichts davon oder
entschieden sich dazu es zu ignorieren, dass während des ersten tages
des treffens, die internationale der anarchistischen föderationen (bei
der die anarchistische förderation großbritannien mitglied ist) eine
stellungnahme veröffentlicht hatten, die alle terroristischen taktiken,
um eine anarchistische gesellschaft zu erreichen, ablehnt.
im gegensatz zu den britischen sicherheitskräften berichteten die lokale
presse und die einwohner_innen von saint-imier sehr positiv über das
anarchistische treffen.
mit diesem zwischenfall sehen wir einen weiteren ruck richtung
politischer polizeiarbeit und der kriminalisierung politischer
weltanschauungen. die zwei in gewahrsam genommenen anarchist_innen waren
nie in irgendeine illegale oder gewalttätige aktion involviert oder in
irgendeine aktion, die die terrorabwehr betreffen würde.
wie in der vergangenheit, als die londoner polizei die menschen dazu
aufrief, informationen über örtliche anarchist_innen weiterzugeben (
„anarchist_innen sollten gemeldet werden, ermahnt die westminster
antiterrorpolizei“ | uk news | the guardian ), erlitten anarchist_innen
schikane für ihre politische überzeugung.
als klassenkämpferische anarchist_innen glauben wir, dass der staat
wenig tut, außer den interessen der reichen und mächtigen zu dienen auf
kosten der normalen leute. dies tritt klar zu tage, wenn menschen, die
kritische ansichten in bezug auf den staat vertreten, wie kriminelle und
terrorist_innen behandelt werden. wir wollen eine klassenlose
gesellschaft schaffen, die auf freiheit, gleichheit und kooperation
basiert. wir glauben an die fähigkeit der normalen leute, die
gesellschaft selbst zu verwalten ohne die einmischung durch bosse und
politiker_innen. dieser zwischenfall war keine reaktion auf irgendein
verbrechen. er zeigt die unterdrückung und kriminalisierung einer
politischen überzeugung.
anmerkungen:
anarchsimus ist eine politische philisophie, die versucht eine
gesellschaft der gleichen, in der gegenseitige hilfe, kooperation, und
direkte demokratie den kapitalismus und den staat ablösen, zu errichten.
der kongress in saint-imier war ein treffen von anarchist_innen aus der
ganzen welt, um das 140. jubiläum des ersten treffens der
anarchistischen internationalen in der schweizer stadt saint-imier im
jahr 1872 zu feiern.
die anarchistische föderation ist eine föderation von
anarcho-kommunist_innen in großbritannien, die eine gesellschaft der
gleichen errichten will.
---
http://www.afed.org.uk
--
Dan Clore
New book: _Weird Words: A Lovecraftian Lexicon_:
http://tinyurl.com/yd3bxkw
My collected fiction: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-unspeakable-and-others/6124911
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
"From the point of view of the defense of our society,
there only exists one danger -- that workers succeed in
speaking to each other about their condition and their
aspirations _without intermediaries_."
--Censor (Gianfranco Sanguinetti), _The Real Report on
the Last Chance to Save Capitalism in Italy_
gekke josje
Aug 21, 2012, 10:36:35 AM8/21/12
to
Op 2012-08-20, Dan Clore schreef <cl...@columbia-center.org>:
[...]
There is the sad result of your actions, Clore; you yourself refuse to
denounce violence when it is conducted under your black flag. You own
up to the violence done by 'the anarchists,' thus you cause this kind
of a reaction from police officers.
Delete your disastrous movement Clore, you are a threat to the people
and the labor class with it. Denounce senseless riot violence. Since
'anarchy' is so thoroughly awash is blood and riots now, it can not
be corrected anymore; it is easier to delete the label / brand and
start over. But if you don't want to, at least start to denounce violence
and terrorism conducted under the flag you resort under. For the sake
of your own anarchists.
--
Our enemies fear our determination to live, our willingness to die.
Phalanx of Freedom http://www.law4.org/o-5.html
There is the sad result of your actions, Clore; you yourself refuse to
denounce violence when it is conducted under your black flag. You own
up to the violence done by 'the anarchists,' thus you cause this kind
of a reaction from police officers.
Delete your disastrous movement Clore, you are a threat to the people
and the labor class with it. Denounce senseless riot violence. Since
'anarchy' is so thoroughly awash is blood and riots now, it can not
be corrected anymore; it is easier to delete the label / brand and
start over. But if you don't want to, at least start to denounce violence
and terrorism conducted under the flag you resort under. For the sake
of your own anarchists.
--
Our enemies fear our determination to live, our willingness to die.
Phalanx of Freedom http://www.law4.org/o-5.html
Charles Kroeger
Aug 22, 2012, 1:57:10 PM8/22/12
to
On 21 Aug 2012 14:36:35 GMT
gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
> Phalanx of Freedom
fascists lunatics
--
CK
beware the cross-posting trolls remove cross-post addresses before posting here
gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
> Phalanx of Freedom
fascists lunatics
--
CK
beware the cross-posting trolls remove cross-post addresses before posting here
gekke josje
Aug 23, 2012, 4:47:38 AM8/23/12
to
Op 2012-08-22, Charles Kroeger schreef <ckr...@frankensteinface.com>:
> On 21 Aug 2012 14:36:35 GMT
> gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
>
>> Phalanx of Freedom
>
> fascists lunatics
Care to proof that ? Do you even know what I am proposing ?
> gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
>
>> Phalanx of Freedom
>
> fascists lunatics
Charles Kroeger
Aug 23, 2012, 2:15:08 PM8/23/12
to
On 23 Aug 2012 08:47:38 GMT
Don't insult my intelligence.
--
CK
Don't insult my intelligence.
--
CK
gekke josje
Aug 25, 2012, 2:28:55 PM8/25/12
to
Op 2012-08-23, Charles Kroeger schreef <ckr...@frankensteinface.com>:
What intelligence, faker. I asked you to proof your babble.
Charles Kroeger
Aug 27, 2012, 11:39:34 PM8/27/12
to
On 25 Aug 2012 18:28:55 GMT
diagram on the phalanx of freedom so I can understand who these enemies are
that fear you and why you have this determination to live and or die as the case
may be.
I await your immediate reponse (what is your rank in the website diagram by the way,
an officer perhaps?)
--
CK
gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
> Op 2012-08-23, Charles Kroeger schreef <ckr...@frankensteinface.com>:
> > On 23 Aug 2012 08:47:38 GMT
> > gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
> >
> >> Do you even know what I am proposing ?
> >
> > Don't insult my intelligence.
>
> What intelligence, faker. I asked you to proof your babble.
>
humm..how about a succinct manifesto instead of that schutzstaffel divisional
> Op 2012-08-23, Charles Kroeger schreef <ckr...@frankensteinface.com>:
> > On 23 Aug 2012 08:47:38 GMT
> > gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
> >
> >> Do you even know what I am proposing ?
> >
> > Don't insult my intelligence.
>
> What intelligence, faker. I asked you to proof your babble.
>
diagram on the phalanx of freedom so I can understand who these enemies are
that fear you and why you have this determination to live and or die as the case
may be.
I await your immediate reponse (what is your rank in the website diagram by the way,
an officer perhaps?)
--
CK
gekke josje
Aug 28, 2012, 10:25:32 AM8/28/12
to
Op 2012-08-28, Charles Kroeger schreef <ckr...@frankensteinface.com>:
I have made it: "distribute power." 2 words, hope you can handle it.
> I await your immediate reponse
Of course.
> (what is your rank in the website diagram by the
> way, an officer perhaps?)
No, I haven't even completed the initiation and am thus not even a 2nd class
private; although I should do that as soon as I can. Looks like you haven't
understood what it was about: these are militias that can be set up by you
or anyone. It is a *system,* it is the logic of a system. You can use that
system, or another (frankly I don't know of any other systems for combat
against tyranny that are worked out like this.) If you set up a militia it
becomes a group that can have all kinds of sizes. Because the name 'group,'
is already taken for a defined number of privates, I've named it a 'fist.'
So you are a 'fist' then, which can be from 2 unto 200 000 persons. If you
have 5 persons in your 'fist,' you can elect a 'corporal,' and if you have
160 or so you can elect sergeants, lieutenants and a captain as well. You
do this not by a general ballot within the 'fist,' but you divide out into
groups that each put a spokesperson for themselves in the central council
of the fist. The central council then appoints and re-appoints the top
military commander(s) of the fist. Those military commanders then run the
combat operations and appoint the lower ranks. There are no periodic
elections, but the central council can replace the top commander at whim.
Do these 'fists' further a revolution ? No they do not further a revolution.
They only secure freedom of speech and assembly, for all *including* any
and all capitalist or monarchist and even anarchists, New testament people,
Muslems, any and all their free speech and assembly right is to be protected
by the people in this 'Phalanx of Freedom' effort. It is therefore more like
the enforcement of minimum political rights then anything else. That is
exactly what it is: a kind of minimum police if you want. For example if
anarchist mobs decide to attack Nazis, it is possible that these Phalanx of
Freedom people decide that the anarchists are violating the right to free
speech of the Nazis. Conversely if the Nazis decide to murder anarchists,
then the Phalanx people may decide to try to protect the anarchists if they
can - within the confines of the Law and Constitution within that nation if
possible. When the Phalanx of Freedom fist has defended people who further
various ignorant theories (ignorant according to the theories on www.law4.org
at least), so that they more or less have defended the rigths of their own
political opponents (or mine at least), then they have the right to call
themselves "with honor." So they gain honor for example by defending the
anarchists from unreasonable violence aimed against them (obviously anarchists
that are busy torching public property should be taken down, ideally by
the proper authorities.)
It is further the rule that you can only act if your nation in general
wants this, and you also need to be at least at Brigade strength. This is
to lessen the false flag tactics, and perhaps also prevents anarchists from
getting into these systems and abusing them and using them as cover to do
general chaos making and even crimes.
Lots of people live comfortably in the west now, and may not understand anymore
how serious politics and economics can become. This is not meant to go make
chaos or play cowboy in the streets of Munich. This is more meant for places
like China, or Saudi Arabia, or Mexico against the drug gangs there, and now
I think it should be set up within the U$A because their ruling gangs are
conducting political repression.
Let me say again because people usually fail to read properly and quickly
fall into their various preconceptions (as you demonstrated): this is *not*
to further a revolution. To conduct a revolution is not this 'Phalanx of
Freedom' effort which is the 6th road in this system called "o-5." To
conduct a revolution is the system called "o-4" aka 'revolution,' in this
system ( http://www.law4.org/o-4.html ). Although it is almost more of
a reform then a revolution, I have called it revolution anyway, and also
because I think that there could easily be a violent reactionary effort
against these reforms so that it will get a revolutionary nature anyway.
Even that may not be what you should do right now if you are in north-western
Europe, although it couldn't hurt to think about these strategies. What
you should do if you live there is systems "o-3" and lower (o-2, o-1, o-0):
form political parties, form social investment funds to fund democratic
companies, buy fair trade, and understand economics and teach it to others.
Who are these enemies I think we will have to face at some point: the
bankers, the ruling gangs and all that follow their commands and are
brainwashed and deluded by their lies. They are likely to use their money
to fund terrorism, war and world-war. Once they do it becomes prudent to
push through a revolution if the people support it (o-4 that is),
and destroy the currency while taking away the excessive wealth of
the ultra-rich so that they can no longer hurt the nation. It is
noteworthy that this will produce an enormous economic, social and
all other kinds of crisis. How to deal with these things is all on my
site as well (or some ideas about all this.) These are not easy issues
and therefore it is not enough to say no more then 'distribute power,'
as if that will be enough.
The people can sortof choose: they can start doing real economics and
politics now, slowly edge the system into what it should be. Then the
future may be easier. Or they could go on with the current model and
change nothing, and then everything could end up being much harder in
the end, with more war and more casualties whether or not at the end
these proposals will be done. The system as it is will eventually destroy
itself, as they always did.
> On 25 Aug 2012 18:28:55 GMT
> gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
>> Op 2012-08-23, Charles Kroeger schreef <ckr...@frankensteinface.com>:
>>> On 23 Aug 2012 08:47:38 GMT
>>> gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you even know what I am proposing ?
>>>
>>> Don't insult my intelligence.
>>
>> What intelligence, faker. I asked you to proof your babble.
>
> humm..how about a succinct manifesto instead of that schutzstaffel divisional
> diagram on the phalanx of freedom so I can understand who these enemies are
> that fear you and why you have this determination to live and or die as the case
> may be.
http://www.law4.org perhaps ? Like the root website, maybe ? This is the shortest
> gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
>> Op 2012-08-23, Charles Kroeger schreef <ckr...@frankensteinface.com>:
>>> On 23 Aug 2012 08:47:38 GMT
>>> gekke josje <jo...@xs4all.DelmeNospam.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you even know what I am proposing ?
>>>
>>> Don't insult my intelligence.
>>
>> What intelligence, faker. I asked you to proof your babble.
>
> humm..how about a succinct manifesto instead of that schutzstaffel divisional
> diagram on the phalanx of freedom so I can understand who these enemies are
> that fear you and why you have this determination to live and or die as the case
> may be.
I have made it: "distribute power." 2 words, hope you can handle it.
> I await your immediate reponse
> (what is your rank in the website diagram by the
> way, an officer perhaps?)
private; although I should do that as soon as I can. Looks like you haven't
understood what it was about: these are militias that can be set up by you
or anyone. It is a *system,* it is the logic of a system. You can use that
system, or another (frankly I don't know of any other systems for combat
against tyranny that are worked out like this.) If you set up a militia it
becomes a group that can have all kinds of sizes. Because the name 'group,'
is already taken for a defined number of privates, I've named it a 'fist.'
So you are a 'fist' then, which can be from 2 unto 200 000 persons. If you
have 5 persons in your 'fist,' you can elect a 'corporal,' and if you have
160 or so you can elect sergeants, lieutenants and a captain as well. You
do this not by a general ballot within the 'fist,' but you divide out into
groups that each put a spokesperson for themselves in the central council
of the fist. The central council then appoints and re-appoints the top
military commander(s) of the fist. Those military commanders then run the
combat operations and appoint the lower ranks. There are no periodic
elections, but the central council can replace the top commander at whim.
Do these 'fists' further a revolution ? No they do not further a revolution.
They only secure freedom of speech and assembly, for all *including* any
and all capitalist or monarchist and even anarchists, New testament people,
Muslems, any and all their free speech and assembly right is to be protected
by the people in this 'Phalanx of Freedom' effort. It is therefore more like
the enforcement of minimum political rights then anything else. That is
exactly what it is: a kind of minimum police if you want. For example if
anarchist mobs decide to attack Nazis, it is possible that these Phalanx of
Freedom people decide that the anarchists are violating the right to free
speech of the Nazis. Conversely if the Nazis decide to murder anarchists,
then the Phalanx people may decide to try to protect the anarchists if they
can - within the confines of the Law and Constitution within that nation if
possible. When the Phalanx of Freedom fist has defended people who further
various ignorant theories (ignorant according to the theories on www.law4.org
at least), so that they more or less have defended the rigths of their own
political opponents (or mine at least), then they have the right to call
themselves "with honor." So they gain honor for example by defending the
anarchists from unreasonable violence aimed against them (obviously anarchists
that are busy torching public property should be taken down, ideally by
the proper authorities.)
It is further the rule that you can only act if your nation in general
wants this, and you also need to be at least at Brigade strength. This is
to lessen the false flag tactics, and perhaps also prevents anarchists from
getting into these systems and abusing them and using them as cover to do
general chaos making and even crimes.
Lots of people live comfortably in the west now, and may not understand anymore
how serious politics and economics can become. This is not meant to go make
chaos or play cowboy in the streets of Munich. This is more meant for places
like China, or Saudi Arabia, or Mexico against the drug gangs there, and now
I think it should be set up within the U$A because their ruling gangs are
conducting political repression.
Let me say again because people usually fail to read properly and quickly
fall into their various preconceptions (as you demonstrated): this is *not*
to further a revolution. To conduct a revolution is not this 'Phalanx of
Freedom' effort which is the 6th road in this system called "o-5." To
conduct a revolution is the system called "o-4" aka 'revolution,' in this
system ( http://www.law4.org/o-4.html ). Although it is almost more of
a reform then a revolution, I have called it revolution anyway, and also
because I think that there could easily be a violent reactionary effort
against these reforms so that it will get a revolutionary nature anyway.
Even that may not be what you should do right now if you are in north-western
Europe, although it couldn't hurt to think about these strategies. What
you should do if you live there is systems "o-3" and lower (o-2, o-1, o-0):
form political parties, form social investment funds to fund democratic
companies, buy fair trade, and understand economics and teach it to others.
Who are these enemies I think we will have to face at some point: the
bankers, the ruling gangs and all that follow their commands and are
brainwashed and deluded by their lies. They are likely to use their money
to fund terrorism, war and world-war. Once they do it becomes prudent to
push through a revolution if the people support it (o-4 that is),
and destroy the currency while taking away the excessive wealth of
the ultra-rich so that they can no longer hurt the nation. It is
noteworthy that this will produce an enormous economic, social and
all other kinds of crisis. How to deal with these things is all on my
site as well (or some ideas about all this.) These are not easy issues
and therefore it is not enough to say no more then 'distribute power,'
as if that will be enough.
The people can sortof choose: they can start doing real economics and
politics now, slowly edge the system into what it should be. Then the
future may be easier. Or they could go on with the current model and
change nothing, and then everything could end up being much harder in
the end, with more war and more casualties whether or not at the end
these proposals will be done. The system as it is will eventually destroy
itself, as they always did.
Charles Kroeger
Aug 29, 2012, 2:47:12 AM8/29/12
to
The Earth is throughly buggered up with an excess of humans who are appearing to
be simply bad. Why else would they want to believe the big lie and joining those
who would lead them to their own demise. This is the way of the stupid the arrogant
the greedy, the greater mind in turmoil.
Your manifesto paints a broad and complex hypothesis with an
indeterminate outcome especially when it envisions military action.
--
CK
be simply bad. Why else would they want to believe the big lie and joining those
who would lead them to their own demise. This is the way of the stupid the arrogant
the greedy, the greater mind in turmoil.
Your manifesto paints a broad and complex hypothesis with an
indeterminate outcome especially when it envisions military action.
--
CK
gekke josje
Aug 29, 2012, 3:57:33 AM8/29/12
to
Op 2012-08-29, Charles Kroeger schreef <ckr...@frankensteinface.com>:
You expect a reply to your empty yet pompous hand-waiving ? Here you have it.
gekke josje
Aug 29, 2012, 10:23:23 AM8/29/12
to
Op 2012-08-28, Charles Kroeger schreef <ckr...@frankensteinface.com>:
I heard this complaignt that things are too long more often; even though
my program can be read in two words ('distribute power'), in less then
a page (the short 7 laws Constitution), the more or less strategically
complete program including all the Constitutions within about 64 pages (!),
or a more extensive read of several hundred pages and if yuo want you can
read many more supporting documents probably in the order of a few thousand
pages in total (perhaps more if you want to include all Usenet posts on the
issues as well). Unfortunately I really never get an intelligent reply from
anyone (including you), and that makes it impossible to go in depth in a
debate about important matters (such as how exactly to handle the change
of the financial system, dealing all the issues there which will be many,
varied yet also pressing.)
To my mind I am dealing with gross incompetence on the part of people
such as yourself. Perhaps you are interested in *relatively* small (you can
even call it miniscule) operations such as building aircraft carriers goes.
To me personally to build an aircraft carrier is an immense operation; however
it is mere peanuts compared to something as big as a world revolution or even
a national revolution. An aircraft carrier is several hundred meters big,
even a minor village is much larger then that. How big are the documents
that surround the building of an aircraft carrier ? I came accross these
statements (the subject of the video is not important, although I think
they make excellent points):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MalYSn_qIU4&feature=context-shows&list=SL
(minute 56)
LEM (Lunar descend module) proposal was "amazingly short" at 110
pages for a "6.9 billion dollar program." That is an "outrageously
short document" for a project of that size. Projects for aircraft
carriers large submarines, and the like typically have proposal
documents in the order of 38 000 pages (5 000 pages to 86 000 pages)
(thirty eight thousand pages). 110 pages is about appropriate for
a 1.4 million dollar program.
You get tens of thousands of pages in the PROPOSAL alone, ok ? That
is reality for you. I have written down the strategies and fundamental
laws of a world revolution in only SIXTY FOUR PAGES, ok ? That is
redicilously small for an operation of this size. Therefore you will
also only find mostly organizational and principled issues, and only
rarely a few strategies. There simply is no room within the attention
span of people, and secondly the 'real meat' of these changes that
are necessary will have to be run and planned by the organizations
set up in these extremely small design documents that I have presented
for it at an amazingly short 64 pages for the entire strategic backbone
of the system, including the 4 Constitutions to be used and the 9
strategic ways to affect 'the system' !
What are we going to do with the ING bank ? When are we going to take
it down ? How many people exactly work there, and what are we exactly
going to do with and for them ? How will that affect those who have
accounts, and what will we do with these accounts and the wealth therein ?
How do we deal with those who end up screwed up by these reforms ? How
are we going to deal with possible terrorism and warfare out of the ING
when it realizes they will be destroyed as an organization; how much
infiltration into the ING boards and ruling class networks do we need
and do we already have so that we know of their possibly criminal plans
that they may be hatching in order to hang on to their wealth ? Where
are they and have they stashed their wealth, and how do we destroy it ?
How do we deal with all the countries in which these rich people have
hidden their wealth. The actual countries may all have to be listed,
which is hundreds of countries. What are our relations with these countries,
will it suffice or be smart to say to these countries that we expect them
to confiscate the wealth of our rich people who have stashed it in
whatever form with them, because our trouble is not with them but with
private wealthy interests ? How will we replace the services of the ING
bank, what will the destruction of that bank mean for the obligations
they have; what does it cause exactly for the mortgages they own, the
stocks they own, the land they own, and what can we do about how they
are going to attempt to do all kinds of things on the last days of their
power. What for all the things they can do, including burning down their
own administrations, giving it away to their friends or making fake
sales, can we do about that ? How are these troubles going to affect
the people in the country, and especially their ability to eat and live
through the day ?
Just a handful of issues that you will face when conducting only one
part of the reforms necessary. A full report on these issues will easily
be a long document, ideally split out into functioning chapters and
recommendations so that people who need to handle a part of the whole
operation do not need to read the report in its entirety. The parts
of the terrorism that ING bosses might fund can do to the police or
even army, while the parts of damage done to 'ordinary people' their
private wealth can do to food security and social welfare parts of
the Government, other parts about hiding wealth can go to the department
of the police dealing with financial fraud, while the parts of how to
handle what is owned by this big bank will have to go to something like
the department of finances, and what to do with the people who loose
their jobs will have to go to departments of labor and perhaps education
(so they can train for jobs that are worthwhile for a nation). These
things all still have to be drawn up, and probably have to be drawn
up new for every major capitalist mega-corporation that is going to
be destroyed/reformed by the reforms fundamentally necessary. You can
try to do all that the shortest way you possibly can, and you will
probably still end up with hundreds or even thousands of pages. The
big problem with all of this is that people do not play along fairly
and decently as the people want it; they scam and lie, even the people
who are conducting these operations will be among those who scam and
lie and you even need to deal with that too.
Only anarchistic types think the world is simple, perhaps that is
one reason they never get any results to speak off. Things are not
simple, this is not the stone age anymore. You may not want to read
thousands of pages and neither do I; but if you still complaign about
64 pages or just 7 paragraphs then you underestimate the complexities
of reality. Why not a 3 word document for a submarine like "goes
underwater, shoots things." Oh yeah fine, good luck with that. Even
a simple family home has documents on it, this is not the stone age
anymore. Things are serious and the scale of things is astronomical.
All these people, millions of them, need to eat, drink and get rid
of their waste; and that all has to go on while you conduct major
social economic and political reforms. You can do that just fine
if it goes slow enough; but you don't know yet if you will have that
luxury. Even if you do it slow, it is still going to be a serious
operation and all these objectives still have to be met (such as
briefly hinted at when taking down a big bank, when you think more
about it there are probably dozens more important aspects coming up.)
This is not the stone age anymore. Modern society is not 30 men and
women around a camp fire just needing a decent shot at a deer and
some fresh stream to drink. An average nation is THIRTY MILLION
PEOPLE, some Empires run at the absurd sizes of 300+ million for
the Americans or 1200 Million for the Chinese. You can not and will
not succesfully deal with that in 2 pages of planning; you can
condense it to 2 pages as I did even less, but it becomes so crude
that it won't work anymore like that. The next question will be: ok,
and how are we going to do that ?
Why am I talking to people who live outside the realm of reality.
my program can be read in two words ('distribute power'), in less then
a page (the short 7 laws Constitution), the more or less strategically
complete program including all the Constitutions within about 64 pages (!),
or a more extensive read of several hundred pages and if yuo want you can
read many more supporting documents probably in the order of a few thousand
pages in total (perhaps more if you want to include all Usenet posts on the
issues as well). Unfortunately I really never get an intelligent reply from
anyone (including you), and that makes it impossible to go in depth in a
debate about important matters (such as how exactly to handle the change
of the financial system, dealing all the issues there which will be many,
varied yet also pressing.)
To my mind I am dealing with gross incompetence on the part of people
such as yourself. Perhaps you are interested in *relatively* small (you can
even call it miniscule) operations such as building aircraft carriers goes.
To me personally to build an aircraft carrier is an immense operation; however
it is mere peanuts compared to something as big as a world revolution or even
a national revolution. An aircraft carrier is several hundred meters big,
even a minor village is much larger then that. How big are the documents
that surround the building of an aircraft carrier ? I came accross these
statements (the subject of the video is not important, although I think
they make excellent points):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MalYSn_qIU4&feature=context-shows&list=SL
(minute 56)
LEM (Lunar descend module) proposal was "amazingly short" at 110
pages for a "6.9 billion dollar program." That is an "outrageously
short document" for a project of that size. Projects for aircraft
carriers large submarines, and the like typically have proposal
documents in the order of 38 000 pages (5 000 pages to 86 000 pages)
(thirty eight thousand pages). 110 pages is about appropriate for
a 1.4 million dollar program.
You get tens of thousands of pages in the PROPOSAL alone, ok ? That
is reality for you. I have written down the strategies and fundamental
laws of a world revolution in only SIXTY FOUR PAGES, ok ? That is
redicilously small for an operation of this size. Therefore you will
also only find mostly organizational and principled issues, and only
rarely a few strategies. There simply is no room within the attention
span of people, and secondly the 'real meat' of these changes that
are necessary will have to be run and planned by the organizations
set up in these extremely small design documents that I have presented
for it at an amazingly short 64 pages for the entire strategic backbone
of the system, including the 4 Constitutions to be used and the 9
strategic ways to affect 'the system' !
What are we going to do with the ING bank ? When are we going to take
it down ? How many people exactly work there, and what are we exactly
going to do with and for them ? How will that affect those who have
accounts, and what will we do with these accounts and the wealth therein ?
How do we deal with those who end up screwed up by these reforms ? How
are we going to deal with possible terrorism and warfare out of the ING
when it realizes they will be destroyed as an organization; how much
infiltration into the ING boards and ruling class networks do we need
and do we already have so that we know of their possibly criminal plans
that they may be hatching in order to hang on to their wealth ? Where
are they and have they stashed their wealth, and how do we destroy it ?
How do we deal with all the countries in which these rich people have
hidden their wealth. The actual countries may all have to be listed,
which is hundreds of countries. What are our relations with these countries,
will it suffice or be smart to say to these countries that we expect them
to confiscate the wealth of our rich people who have stashed it in
whatever form with them, because our trouble is not with them but with
private wealthy interests ? How will we replace the services of the ING
bank, what will the destruction of that bank mean for the obligations
they have; what does it cause exactly for the mortgages they own, the
stocks they own, the land they own, and what can we do about how they
are going to attempt to do all kinds of things on the last days of their
power. What for all the things they can do, including burning down their
own administrations, giving it away to their friends or making fake
sales, can we do about that ? How are these troubles going to affect
the people in the country, and especially their ability to eat and live
through the day ?
Just a handful of issues that you will face when conducting only one
part of the reforms necessary. A full report on these issues will easily
be a long document, ideally split out into functioning chapters and
recommendations so that people who need to handle a part of the whole
operation do not need to read the report in its entirety. The parts
of the terrorism that ING bosses might fund can do to the police or
even army, while the parts of damage done to 'ordinary people' their
private wealth can do to food security and social welfare parts of
the Government, other parts about hiding wealth can go to the department
of the police dealing with financial fraud, while the parts of how to
handle what is owned by this big bank will have to go to something like
the department of finances, and what to do with the people who loose
their jobs will have to go to departments of labor and perhaps education
(so they can train for jobs that are worthwhile for a nation). These
things all still have to be drawn up, and probably have to be drawn
up new for every major capitalist mega-corporation that is going to
be destroyed/reformed by the reforms fundamentally necessary. You can
try to do all that the shortest way you possibly can, and you will
probably still end up with hundreds or even thousands of pages. The
big problem with all of this is that people do not play along fairly
and decently as the people want it; they scam and lie, even the people
who are conducting these operations will be among those who scam and
lie and you even need to deal with that too.
Only anarchistic types think the world is simple, perhaps that is
one reason they never get any results to speak off. Things are not
simple, this is not the stone age anymore. You may not want to read
thousands of pages and neither do I; but if you still complaign about
64 pages or just 7 paragraphs then you underestimate the complexities
of reality. Why not a 3 word document for a submarine like "goes
underwater, shoots things." Oh yeah fine, good luck with that. Even
a simple family home has documents on it, this is not the stone age
anymore. Things are serious and the scale of things is astronomical.
All these people, millions of them, need to eat, drink and get rid
of their waste; and that all has to go on while you conduct major
social economic and political reforms. You can do that just fine
if it goes slow enough; but you don't know yet if you will have that
luxury. Even if you do it slow, it is still going to be a serious
operation and all these objectives still have to be met (such as
briefly hinted at when taking down a big bank, when you think more
about it there are probably dozens more important aspects coming up.)
This is not the stone age anymore. Modern society is not 30 men and
women around a camp fire just needing a decent shot at a deer and
some fresh stream to drink. An average nation is THIRTY MILLION
PEOPLE, some Empires run at the absurd sizes of 300+ million for
the Americans or 1200 Million for the Chinese. You can not and will
not succesfully deal with that in 2 pages of planning; you can
condense it to 2 pages as I did even less, but it becomes so crude
that it won't work anymore like that. The next question will be: ok,
and how are we going to do that ?
Why am I talking to people who live outside the realm of reality.
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