Birth/neonatal trauma and violent suicide
Paul Hagen
here that the trauma of neonatal circ was the underlying cause of the
tragic shootings at Colombine High School. Their clear implication was
that if the messed-up shooters had both had foreskins, the shootings
probably wouldn't have happened.
Research on the lifetime implications of birth and neonatal trauma is only
in its infancy, but preliminary findings do indeed suggest a linkage
between birth and neonatal trauma and an increased likelihood of violent
suicide. Thus, reducing birth and neonatal trauma wherever possible is now
considered a Good Thing (witness the AAP and Canadian Paediatric Society's
recently-adopted policies stating that local anesthetics should be used
during all infant circs).
In the simplistic (and self-serving?) world view of these (intact)
anti-circ posters, neonatal circ is the neonatal trauma that's driving
angry young men to violence and death. However, for (presumably intact)
researchers in (overwhelmingly intact) Sweden, neonatal circ didn't even
show up on their radar (because it's simply not done there). Nonetheless,
the likelihood of violent suicide was nearly FIVE TIMES HIGHER for
(implicitly intact) Swedish males compared to Swedish women (which means
that violence and death are more of a "guy thing" than a "gal thing" to
begin with).
Anyhow, here's the entire text of that Swedish study. Again, note that
neonatal circ isn't mentioned once (because it's virtually nonexistant in
Sweden). I couldn't paste the accompanying graphs into this post, so if
you want to see them, the URL is:
<http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/317/7169/1346>. After reading this, I
think you'll agree that **IF** you choose to have your boy circ'd, you
should INSIST on a local anesthetic. And before that, the mother should
INSIST on opiates during delivery and PRAY that she has a short labor and
a birth that requires no mechanical intervention.
- - - - - <Begin Quoted Material> - - - - -
MJ 1998;317:1346-1349 ( 14 November )
Papers
Obstetric care and proneness of offspring to suicide as adults:
case-control study
Editorial by Appleby
Bertil Jacobson, professor emeritus, Marc Bygdeman, professor.
Department of Medical Engineering, F60 Novum, Huddinge University
Hospital, SE-141 86 Huddinge, Sweden, Department of Obstetrics and
Gynaecology, Karolinska Hospital, SE-171 76 Stockholm, Sweden
Correspondence to: Professor Jacobson bertil....@labtek.ki.se
Abstract
Objective: To investigate any long term effects of traumatic birth and
obstetric procedures in relation to suicide by violent means in offspring
as adults.
Design: Prospective case-control study.
Setting: Stockholm, Sweden.
Subjects: 242 adults who committed suicide by violent means from 1978 to
1995, and who were born in one of seven hospitals in Stockholm during
1945-80, matched with 403 biological siblings born during the same period
and at the same group of hospitals.
Main outcome measures: Adverse and beneficial perinatal factors expressed
as relative risks (odds ratios) and 95% confidence intervals, derived from
logistic regression of cases matched with their siblings.
Results: For multiple birth trauma the estimated relative risks of
offspring subsequently committing suicide by violent means were 4.9 (95%
confidence
interval 1.8 to 13) for men and 1.04 (0.2 to 4.6) for women. In mothers
who received multiple opiate treatment during delivery, the estimated
relative risk of offspring subsequently committing suicide was equal for
both sexes (0.26, 0.09 to 0.69).
Conclusion: Minimising pain and discomfort to the infant during birth
seems to be of importance in reducing the risk of committing suicide by
violent
means as an adult.
Key messages
Adverse perinatal conditions are associated with an increased risk of
suicide by violent means for adult men
Giving opiates to the mother during delivery was associated with a
decreased risk of subsequent suicide by violent means in offspring
Similar studies of accident proneness as well as suicides by violent means
are required possibly to corroborate the findings
Obstetric procedures should be chosen that reduce perinatal trauma to
minimise the possible risk for subsequent adult self destructive behaviour
Introduction
For decades millions of mothers in developed countries have been subjected
to new obstetric procedures, but with limited knowledge of the long term
effects from those interventions. It does seem that long term effects are
possible as one case-control study showed that suicide as an adolescent
was associated with adverse perinatal conditions, and another study showed
that suicide by violent means was associated with mechanical birth trauma.
1 2
Neither of these studies, however, controlled for confounders. We tested
whether traumatic birth could be associated with subsequent suicide by
violent means in offspring, using a stringent study design. We also
predicted that this association could be reduced by giving sedatives and
analgesics to mothers during delivery, as the infants' perception of
trauma would be reduced. We based our predictions on the hypothesis
(presented to the ethics committee of the Karolinska Institute in advance)
that, through a process of imprinting, certain individuals might
subconsciously create a traumatic situation during the act of suicide that
produces a sensation similar to that experienced during birth.2 Since such
imprinting processes are facilitated by testosterone, we expected men to
be affected more than women.3 We analysed cases matched with siblings by
logistic regression. Variables constituting a trauma score were selected
by one of us (MB) before any access to birth records.
Subjects and methods
Cases and controls
Cases were included in the study if: (a) they were adults who had
committed an unambiguous suicide by violent meansthat is, using a firearm,
jumping from a height, jumping in front of a train, laceration, hanging,
and strangulation;
(b) they were born at one of seven hospitals in Stockholm from 1945 to
1980; (c) they had been examined after death at the Department of Forensic
Medicine, National Board of Forensic Medicine, Stockholm between January
1978 and June
1995; and (d) they were Swedish citizens at the time of death. Birth
records could not be found for 22 (5.7%) of 383 adults who had committed
suicide, and two (0.6%) of the adults had not been raised by their
biological parents so were excluded from the study, leaving 359 cases for
analysis.
Of 436 siblings born during the same period at the same seven hospitals,
birth records could not be found for 26 (6.0%), four (1.0%) had not been
raised by
their biological parents, and three (0.7%) had committed suicide, leaving
403 siblings for comparison with 242 cases of suicide with siblings.
Blinded evaluation
Copies of the birth records of adults who had committed suicide and their
siblings were coded, and data were extracted by two experienced midwives.
(In
Sweden midwives assist most births and keep all birth records.)
Trauma score and opiate treatment
A trauma score was calculated for each subject by adding the number of
instances when any of the following birth events occurred that were likely
to cause
pain to the infant: presentation other than vertex, meconium stained
amniotic fluid and membranes, instrumental delivery or internal version,
and resuscitation and other complications usually requiring ward care.
The number of times opiates (50-100 mg pethidine hydrochloride or 15-20 mg
morphine) were given within 24 hours before birth was recorded.
Confounders
Several potential confounders were taken into account. Categorical
variables included: the hospital and year and season of birth; maternal
age, socioeconomic
level, and civil status; order of birth, duration of labour, birth weight,
and administration of nitrous oxide, barbiturates, or chloroform.
Indicator variables included: treatment with oxytocin, neonatal asphyxia,
and sex. Duration of labour was determined in three ways: the difference
between the time of delivery and, when available, time of onset of labour;
the difference between the time of delivery and time of admission to the
hospital plus two hours; and the difference between the time of delivery
and the time the membranes ruptured. No missing values were substituted,
and subjects with missing values were
rejected during statistical analysis. The origin of missing data has been
attributed to some midwives and was not likely to be due to systematic
errors causing bias.4
Statistical methods
We used the LOGREG procedure in EPILOG for the logistic regression of
subjects with a variable number of siblings as matched controls. The
relative risks for subsequent suicide were estimated by multivariate
analysis after stepwise regression, using a significance level of P<0.05
as the criterion for inclusion.
Determination of regression coefficients permitted estimation of odds
ratios for various factors, taking confounders into account.5
Results
Obstetric practices changed during the study period. The mean duration of
labour with offspring that subsequently committed suicide and their
siblings was 10.1 (SD=6.0) and 9.5 (SD=5.8) hours respectively. Duration
of labour decreased
slightly during the study period (fig 1). The average of the differences
between the years of birth of the offspring who committed suicide and
their siblings was 0.08 years.
Offspring who subsequently committed suicide were more frequently exposed
to birth complications than their siblings (table). Instrumental delivery
or internal version, resuscitation, and other complications during birth
contributed to the mean trauma score more during 1966 to 1970 and 1971 to
1980 than before, and offspring who subsequently committed suicide were
subjected to about twice as many interventions at birth than their
siblings (fig 2).
During the birth of offspring who subsequently committed suicide the
mothers were given on average fewer doses of opiates during five of the
six periods:
1945-50, 1951-55, 1956-60, 1966-70, and 1971-80 (fig 3). Opiates were more
commonly given at the ABB hospital (Allmänna BB), where 52 of 115 (45%)
mothers received opiates compared with 69 of 530 (13%) mothers at the
other hospitals.
During multivariate analysis, matching cases with their own siblings, the
trauma score and treatment with opiates were tested by logistic regression
in
competition with potential confounders (see table A on the website). The
following variables were significant: maternal age (P=0.009), sex
(P=0.006),
treatment with opiates (P=0.007), and the interaction between men and the
trauma score (P=0.002) (see table B on the website).
Dr. Coonie
prh...@bitstream.net (Paul Hagen) wrote:
> There have recently been charges by some of the (intact) anti-circ
posters
> here that the trauma of neonatal circ was the underlying cause of the
> tragic shootings at Colombine High School. Their clear implication was
> that if the messed-up shooters had both had foreskins, the shootings
> probably wouldn't have happened.
>
> Research on the lifetime implications of birth and neonatal trauma is
only
> in its infancy, but preliminary findings do indeed suggest a linkage
> between birth and neonatal trauma and an increased likelihood of
violent
> suicide.
Yes, and this fact alone should alert open minds to the horrible
possibilities an infant circ can have.
Also needless to say an injection at the penis base of lidocaine does
not relieve the week or so pain such an invasive and totally unethical
procedure could produce for a newborn.
Thus, reducing birth and neonatal trauma wherever possible is
now
> considered a Good Thing (witness the AAP and Canadian Paediatric
Society's
> recently-adopted policies stating that local anesthetics should be
used
> during all infant circs).
Yes, so what's your point. All that is being said is when obvious
reasons for suicides such as broken hearts and such are not clear, then
often a deeper, perhaps more encompassing one should be considered.
Including a painful newborn circumcision!
> In the simplistic (and self-serving?) world view of these (intact)
> anti-circ posters, neonatal circ is the neonatal trauma that's driving
> angry young men to violence and death. However, for (presumably
intact)
What bull shit, Hagan.. why isn't UTI self serving for pro-cirers?
You really make me throw up.
We need look at homogeneous groups before we split cohorts around
ethnic, National or other measures. Any worth while experiment or study
must localize and minimoze variables. Your Swedish studies are
meaningless since perhaps educational or professional lack of
opportunity and such may be a factor in young depression.
Did I not read the Swedes contributed to the sucide and birth trauma
data base? They found birth trauma perhaps may increase the risk of
young adult suicide. They did not select just circumcision. Quite
frankly there are other possible contributors to a traumatized delivery.
I honestly don't think you understand the first thing about research
design, correlations or what experimenters mean when they find these odd
correlations.
That study has been available on my web site for more than six months!!
I'd bet money if you wrote Klebold and Harris' mothers and asked them
about their son's circs they would tell you they were done with out pain
relief and also with complications!
I'm that sure of circ's contribution at Columbine. This is not what
Americans want to hear, but someday, perhaps soon, the reasons for will
become more scientifically studied and speculated.
In fact if neither of the shooters had been circumcised, I can almost
guarantee you the massacre would have never happened.
Sort of like killing a butterfly and millions of years later a dictator
is elected to power. A causation lost to conscious recall and buried in
time, but still the spark which burned the world to cinders.
--
Circumcision is not a debate, it is a battle for a boy
to remain genitally whole.
http://homestead.deja.com/user.coontail/nocir1.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
wadi
Dr. Coonie <coon...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:839et2$ve8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Sort of like killing a butterfly and millions of years later a dictator
> is elected to power. A causation lost to conscious recall and buried in
> time, but still the spark which burned the world to cinders.
>
LOL
A real bit of 4skin philosophy there connie dear.
Read it again.
heh heh
What were you on last night?
Dan Bollinger
adult suicide and addictive behaviors. And, researchers of birth trauma
agree that neo-natal circumcision is part of birth trauma. The research is
mounting that circumcision is medically not indicated and is harmful to the
short term and long term emotional health of the individual. To me, its a
traditional blood rite and nothing more than human sacrifice.
Whether or not it was a contributing factor at Colombine is another subject.
Circ rates for western America was about 40% when these boys were born. The
chances that two circed boys would commit any crime is 40% times 40% or 16%
It is 84% more likely that one or both would be circed. Again, the research
mounts in favor of not circing. Or, to put it another way, why continue
doing it? Dan
Paul Hagen <prh...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:prhagen-1512...@port106.bitstream.net...
Dr. Coonie
"Dan Bollinger" <danbol...@home.com> wrote:
> Paul, Yes, more than one study has shown a link between birth trauma
and
> adult suicide and addictive behaviors. And, researchers of birth
trauma
> agree that neo-natal circumcision is part of birth trauma. The
research is
> mounting that circumcision is medically not indicated and is harmful
to the
> short term and long term emotional health of the individual. To me,
its a
> traditional blood rite and nothing more than human sacrifice.
>
> Whether or not it was a contributing factor at Colombine is another
subject.
> Circ rates for western America was about 40% when these boys were
born. The
> chances that two circed boys would commit any crime is 40% times 40%
or 16%
But, I'll add Harris was an Air Force brat, born to a father who
probably adores circumcisions, had a circed older brother Kevin and was
born in Kansas, a circumcision milling area.
Klebold was technically Jewish, has a Jewish mother. Was said to read
prayers ar Seder tables. No uncircumcised man may sit at seder tables!
Idiotic but that's religion for you. Harris was cut without a doubt,
autopsy confirms. Klebold was most certainly cut Jewish, but no
confirmation.
Your math is correct, if the circ rate was about 40 percent. The product
would be 16 percent. That means there is an 84 percent chance both would
NOT be circumcised by pure chance. Not as you stated it, an 84 percent
chance they would be!
wadi
>
> Your math is correct, if the circ rate was about 40 percent. The product
> would be 16 percent. That means there is an 84 percent chance both would
> NOT be circumcised by pure chance. Not as you stated it, an 84 percent
> chance they would be!
>
There you go and piss on his little theory.
His piss poor math makes a mockery of his conclusion.
Another example of the "flexibility" of the 4skincentric in respect of the
truth?
Dan Bollinger
This study, with an 'n' of two show a correlation between circs and
violence. Problem is, an 'n' of two is ridiculous. Now if it was
hundreds..... Dan
Dr. Coonie <coon...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:83b59f$5ph$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <ll764.11852$4r6.3...@news.rdc1.il.home.com>,
> "Dan Bollinger" <danbol...@home.com> wrote:
> > Paul, Yes, more than one study has shown a link between birth trauma
> and
> > adult suicide and addictive behaviors. And, researchers of birth
> trauma
> > agree that neo-natal circumcision is part of birth trauma. The
> research is
> > mounting that circumcision is medically not indicated and is harmful
> to the
> > short term and long term emotional health of the individual. To me,
> its a
> > traditional blood rite and nothing more than human sacrifice.
> >
> > Whether or not it was a contributing factor at Colombine is another
> subject.
> > Circ rates for western America was about 40% when these boys were
> born. The
> > chances that two circed boys would commit any crime is 40% times 40%
> or 16%
>
>
> But, I'll add Harris was an Air Force brat, born to a father who
> probably adores circumcisions, had a circed older brother Kevin and was
> born in Kansas, a circumcision milling area.
>
> Klebold was technically Jewish, has a Jewish mother. Was said to read
> prayers ar Seder tables. No uncircumcised man may sit at seder tables!
> Idiotic but that's religion for you. Harris was cut without a doubt,
> autopsy confirms. Klebold was most certainly cut Jewish, but no
> confirmation.
>
> Your math is correct, if the circ rate was about 40 percent. The product
> would be 16 percent. That means there is an 84 percent chance both would
> NOT be circumcised by pure chance. Not as you stated it, an 84 percent
> chance they would be!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dr. Coonie
"wadi" <wa...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> Dr. Coonie <coon...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:83b59f$5ph$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> >
product
> > would be 16 percent. That means there is an 84 percent chance both
would
> > NOT be circumcised by pure chance. Not as you stated it, an 84
percent
> > chance they would be!
You fukin idiot. If the probability in an infinite set is 40 for
success then clearly the intact group is 60 percent. That's a 60 percent
random chance of selecting an intact person. If you do two consecutive
draws, the probability is the product.
You haven't a clue do you!
>
> There you go and piss on his little theory.
> His piss poor math makes a mockery of his conclusion.
> Another example of the "flexibility" of the 4skincentric in respect of
the
> truth?
>
>
--
Dr. Coonie
"Dan Bollinger" <danbol...@home.com> wrote:
> Dr. Yes, I mispoke, I meant to say 84% that one or NONE would be
circed.
> This study, with an 'n' of two show a correlation between circs and
> violence. Problem is, an 'n' of two is ridiculous. Now if it was
> hundreds..... Dan
>
>
You're right Columbine in and of itself does not PROVE strongly such a
coorelation, but ONE DID EXIST that was improbable if we assume 40
percent circ rate.
Personally I think that 40 percent rate applies mostly to Califoria.
The Denver area is heavy into fundamentalist religion and not very
intelligent or progressive social ideas. Therefore we could more likely
assume a 80 percent circ rate for locally born.
We could easily assume a 95 percent circ rate for Kansas.
But, this seems to really be loosing it. The point is the two gunmen
were cut and that does seem improbable and especially so if all the
school shooters are examined. But, I'd bet all the shooters to date are
cut. This would lend a stronger credance to the theory. Of course unless
I write each guy in jail and ask him if he's cut.
I think it would make a good project for some forward looking
sociologist and circumcision researcher.
By the way the guy in the Neatherlands shoot up WAS circumcised.
He .. heeh.. I know this just won't set well with the pro-circ cabal..
but then again truth doesn't rest well with them anyway!
wadi
> In article <83bq7i$1i84$3...@nnrp01.ops.uunet.co.za>,
> "wadi" <wa...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dr. Coonie <coon...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:83b59f$5ph$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > >
> > > Your math is correct, if the circ rate was about 40 percent. The
> product
> > > would be 16 percent. That means there is an 84 percent chance both
> would
> > > NOT be circumcised by pure chance. Not as you stated it, an 84
> percent
> > > chance they would be!
>
> You fukin idiot. If the probability in an infinite set is 40 for
> success then clearly the intact group is 60 percent. That's a 60 percent
> random chance of selecting an intact person. If you do two consecutive
> draws, the probability is the product.
> You haven't a clue do you!
>
> >
> > There you go and piss on his little theory.
> > His piss poor math makes a mockery of his conclusion.
> > Another example of the "flexibility" of the 4skincentric in respect of
> the
> > truth?
> >
> >
This is an interesting post by connie, now a doctor of sorts I see.
LOL
The fucking prick just flamed his own post.
ROTFLMCO
Lockdown
"Dr. Coonie" wrote:
> In article <Tfi64.12096$4r6.4...@news.rdc1.il.home.com>,
> "Dan Bollinger" <danbol...@home.com> wrote:
> > Dr. Yes, I mispoke, I meant to say 84% that one or NONE would be
> circed.
> > This study, with an 'n' of two show a correlation between circs and
> > violence. Problem is, an 'n' of two is ridiculous. Now if it was
> > hundreds..... Dan
> >
> >
> But, this was a tragic and very rare event, statistically speaking.
> You're right Columbine in and of itself does not PROVE strongly such a
> coorelation, but ONE DID EXIST that was improbable if we assume 40
> percent circ rate.
> Personally I think that 40 percent rate applies mostly to Califoria.
> The Denver area is heavy into fundamentalist religion and not very
> intelligent or progressive social ideas. Therefore we could more likely
> assume a 80 percent circ rate for locally born.
Actually, I read statitstics on Colorado, and apparently they circ a
lot.
There was one article that said that the rate was ~86% in one hospital,
which prompted the family to decide to circumcise. bleh.
>
> We could easily assume a 95 percent circ rate for Kansas.
> But, this seems to really be loosing it. The point is the two gunmen
> were cut and that does seem improbable and especially so if all the
> school shooters are examined. But, I'd bet all the shooters to date are
> cut. This would lend a stronger credance to the theory. Of course unless
> I write each guy in jail and ask him if he's cut.
>
> I think it would make a good project for some forward looking
> sociologist and circumcision researcher.
>
> By the way the guy in the Neatherlands shoot up WAS circumcised.
> He .. heeh.. I know this just won't set well with the pro-circ cabal..
> but then again truth doesn't rest well with them anyway!
Yeah, that's why it only happens in the US, or when some other
disgruntled circumcised man can't take it anymore : )
Dr. Coonie
"wadi" <wa...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> This is an interesting post by connie, now a doctor of sorts I see.
> LOL
>
> The fucking prick just flamed his own post.
> ROTFLMCO
>
Hardly, did you note the headers correctly. I corrected a statement.
The truth is this: At Columbine both gunman were circumcised.
If we assumed a 40 percent circ rate, which we cannot, except for
California born in 1982, the probability of this fact happening by
chance is only 18 percent. Do you get it NOW??
Actually after looking at the type of low brow intellects and religious
fundationalists in that area.. greater Denver, I would guess a near 100
percent circ rate in 1982. Even today Denver has a ghastly 80 to 85
percent rate at its largest hospitals!
That would mean worse case a 72 percent change of two shot students or
two gunman being circumcised by pure chance!
If anyone can supply Colorado circ rates for 1982, I'll recompute my
calculation.
The point is this, given circs have declined in the USA in the past
twenty years and that each and every killer was male, circumcised and
obsessed with killing.. when all of the shooters are taken into account,
it appears statistically a circumcision link is there. However,
recognize the link could be there yet caused by a third factor such as
socio-economic class, circumcision and killing and money could be
linked. If we looked at circumcision and found a 95 percent rate amongst
families who make the median incomes of the killer's families, then
there is a link, but circ is then related to family income.
That's why such calculations are fascinating, but can never prove, only
be used as inference and as a basis for further inquiry and study.
So I await a statistical circumcision rate for Colorado in 1982!
That would make the hypothesis more credable.
Fox had a Jewish family counselor on tonight who professes to know why
boys kill. Of course he would out of hand dismiss the circumcision
theory.. anyone want to guess WHY?
wadi
> In article <83gjn2$2mt2$1...@nnrp01.ops.uunet.co.za>,
> "wadi" <wa...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >
> > This is an interesting post by connie, now a doctor of sorts I see.
> > LOL
> >
> > The fucking prick just flamed his own post.
> > ROTFLMCO
> >
>
> Hardly, did you note the headers correctly. I corrected a statement.
> The truth is this: At Columbine both gunman were circumcised.
> If we assumed a 40 percent circ rate, which we cannot, except for
> California born in 1982, the probability of this fact happening by
> chance is only 18 percent. Do you get it NOW??
>
Really?
So lets work through it then.
It started with this one.
===========================
Dr. Coonie <coon...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:83b59f$5ph$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
[snip]
>
> Your math is correct, if the circ rate was about 40 percent. The product
> would be 16 percent. That means there is an 84 percent chance both would
> NOT be circumcised by pure chance. Not as you stated it, an 84 percent
> chance they would be!
>
===========================
Then this gem.
===========================
Dr. Coonie <coon...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:83evib$qsp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <83bq7i$1i84$3...@nnrp01.ops.uunet.co.za>,
> "wadi" <wa...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dr. Coonie <coon...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:83b59f$5ph$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > >
> > > Your math is correct, if the circ rate was about 40 percent. The
> product
> > > would be 16 percent. That means there is an 84 percent chance both
> would
> > > NOT be circumcised by pure chance. Not as you stated it, an 84
> percent
> > > chance they would be!
>
> You fukin idiot. If the probability in an infinite set is 40 for
> success then clearly the intact group is 60 percent. That's a 60 percent
> random chance of selecting an intact person. If you do two consecutive
> draws, the probability is the product.
> You haven't a clue do you!
>
===========================
???
So you correct your own statement by calling yourself: "You fukin idiot".
LOL
Dr. Coonie
"wadi" <wa...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
You missed the post from Bollinger didn't you.
What can be said is this for one last time. If we assumed Colorado had a
40 percent circ rate in 1982 ( doubtful ) and further the average
circumcision rate of students at Columbine was 40 percent ( doubtful,
its probably higher ), then there is only an 18 percent chance by pure
chance, both would be circumcised. Since both were circumcised, the
statistical odds against that are 100-16 or 84 percent.
So if all the assumptions about rates are correct, circumcision could
have been a factor in the assualts. DO YOU GET IT NOW ??
Actually I would bet the circ rate higher since Shoels, the African
American boy shot through the heart was circumcised!
In His Image
>There have recently been charges by some of the (intact) anti-circ posters
>here that the trauma of neonatal circ was the underlying cause of the
>tragic shootings at Colombine High School. Their clear implication was
>that if the messed-up shooters had both had foreskins, the shootings
>probably wouldn't have happened.
Schoolyard shootings probably would still happen. Just that they would
be in all probability carried out by *other* circumcised boys.
>Cases and controls
>Cases were included in the study if: (a) they were adults who had
>committed an unambiguous suicide by violent meansthat is, using a firearm,
>jumping from a height, jumping in front of a train, laceration, hanging,
>and strangulation;
I take issue with the implicit assumption that death by firearm or by
hanging is necessarily in the accepted sense "violent". After all, these
are among the state-sanctioned methods for humanely dispatching condemned
felons. Presumably, executions involving painful and protracted death by
degrees (such as crucifiction, quartering, stoning, strangulation,
burning, or drowning) are in the category of "violent". Both hanging and
a bullet to the brain seem to bring immediate death. (Though I don't
discount the possibility of someone botching the job.)
So I want to see justification for excluding from scrutiny deaths brought
about by taking a deliberate overdose of drugs or a fatal mix of drugs and
alcohol, or by steering a motor vehicle into a tree or into the path of
another. I can see no valid reason for excluding these suicides; to my
mind they are equally relevant to any investigation seeking to uncover a
link of intentional fatal self-destruction to early birth-linked trauma.
-Image
Dr. Coonie
born-p...@keep.your.spam.com (In His Image) wrote:
> Paul Hagen <prh...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> I take issue with the implicit assumption that death by firearm or by
> hanging is necessarily in the accepted sense "violent". After all,
these
> are among the state-sanctioned methods for humanely dispatching
condemned
> felons. Presumably, executions involving painful and protracted death
by
> degrees (such as crucifiction, quartering, stoning, strangulation,
> burning, or drowning) are in the category of "violent". Both hanging
and
> a bullet to the brain seem to bring immediate death. (Though I don't
> discount the possibility of someone botching the job.)
How can any feeling human creature not perceive the extreme violence of
new born circumcision as criminal and a wounding? Why do boys often end
their lives early in much the same way their lives began with violence
and the sexual assault of their penis.
How can people be so blind to what is an out right truth. Circumcision
is a violent assault. The lidocaine injections in NO WAY change this
fact.
This is one reason I contend the pro-circ cabal is insane. Their isn't
much doubt of this to any unbiased and intuitive mind.
American men should be suing their doctors ( circumcisers ) in the
thousands, but they've been dupped into believeing something that isn't.
wadi
>
> How can any feeling human creature not perceive the extreme violence of
> new born circumcision as criminal and a wounding?
Depends what you want to be feeling, connie.
Ice Man
wadi wrote:
Yeah Coonie, while you are feeling disgust at this violent violation of an
infants body, Wadi and Centure are feeling sexual stimulation.
Paul Hagen
> Paul Hagen <prh...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >There have recently been charges by some of the (intact) anti-circ posters
> >here that the trauma of neonatal circ was the underlying cause of the
> >tragic shootings at Colombine High School. Their clear implication was
> >that if the messed-up shooters had both had foreskins, the shootings
> >probably wouldn't have happened.
>
> Schoolyard shootings probably would still happen. Just that they would
> be in all probability carried out by *other* circumcised boys.
In countries where the majority of boys are circ'd, that would probably be
true by default. However, you also have to take into account the fact that
the U.S. stands alone in the world when it comes to easy access to guns.
If guns were as easy to get in predominantly intact countries as they are
in the predominantly circ'd U.S., I suspect that things would even-out in
a hurry. Especially if the boys in those other countries had been raised
on a U.S.-style diet of TV, movies and video games in which the solution
to just about everything is to blow people away. I can't remember the
exact numbers, but parent groups who keep track of such things say that,
by the time a U.S. kid reaches high school, he/she has seen depictions of
THOUSANDS of shootings and other violent behavior.
> >Cases and controls
> >Cases were included in the study if: (a) they were adults who had
> >committed an unambiguous suicide by violent meansthat is, using a firearm,
> >jumping from a height, jumping in front of a train, laceration, hanging,
> >and strangulation;
>
> I take issue with the implicit assumption that death by firearm or by
> hanging is necessarily in the accepted sense "violent". After all, these
> are among the state-sanctioned methods for humanely dispatching condemned
> felons. Presumably, executions involving painful and protracted death by
> degrees (such as crucifiction, quartering, stoning, strangulation,
> burning, or drowning) are in the category of "violent". Both hanging and
> a bullet to the brain seem to bring immediate death. (Though I don't
> discount the possibility of someone botching the job.)
>
> So I want to see justification for excluding from scrutiny deaths brought
> about by taking a deliberate overdose of drugs or a fatal mix of drugs and
> alcohol, or by steering a motor vehicle into a tree or into the path of
> another. I can see no valid reason for excluding these suicides; to my
> mind they are equally relevant to any investigation seeking to uncover a
> link of intentional fatal self-destruction to early birth-linked trauma.
All I was doing is passing along the text of one research study conducted
in (almost universally intact) Sweden (where there is no death penalty).
It demonstrates that, circ or no circ, violent suicide is more of a guy
thing than a gal thing. I'd personally like to see some research done on
the link between violence/suicide and (1) divorces that happen early in
childhood, and (2) "absentee" parents (who outwardly provide "good homes,"
but are too busy being "successful" to give their kids the time of day). I
think it would be a real eye-opener.
Lockdown
Paul Hagen wrote:
> In article <1999122223...@keep.your.spam.com>,
> born-p...@keep.your.spam.com (In His Image) wrote:
>
> > Paul Hagen <prh...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > >There have recently been charges by some of the (intact) anti-circ posters
> > >here that the trauma of neonatal circ was the underlying cause of the
> > >tragic shootings at Colombine High School. Their clear implication was
> > >that if the messed-up shooters had both had foreskins, the shootings
> > >probably wouldn't have happened.
> >
> > Schoolyard shootings probably would still happen. Just that they would
> > be in all probability carried out by *other* circumcised boys.
>
> In countries where the majority of boys are circ'd, that would probably be
> true by default. However, you also have to take into account the fact that
> the U.S. stands alone in the world when it comes to easy access to guns.
> If guns were as easy to get in predominantly intact countries as they are
> in the predominantly circ'd U.S., I suspect that things would even-out in
> a hurry. Especially if the boys in those other countries had been raised
> on a U.S.-style diet of TV, movies and video games in which the solution
> to just about everything is to blow people away. I can't remember the
> exact numbers, but parent groups who keep track of such things say that,
> by the time a U.S. kid reaches high school, he/she has seen depictions of
> THOUSANDS of shootings and other violent behavior.
I think it's crazy that people think violence on tv causes violence. Do you
think that the world would be perfect without video games and violent tv? No,
violence
has been around since the dawn of time. My friend's dad thinks that if his son
plays
a violent game, he will ACTUALLY GO OUT AND KILL SOMEONE. Of course,
the dad's an idiot, but this kind of attitute prevails with old fucks who have
forgotten
what it's like to be young, and think kids are a bunch of brainless automatons.
>
>
> > >Cases and controls
> > >Cases were included in the study if: (a) they were adults who had
> > >committed an unambiguous suicide by violent meansthat is, using a firearm,
> > >jumping from a height, jumping in front of a train, laceration, hanging,
> > >and strangulation;
> >
wadi
Lockdown <"Lockdown102"@hotmail.com [actually 101]> wrote in message
news:gsea4.109224$ri.5...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
> My friend's dad thinks that if his son
> plays
> a violent game, he will ACTUALLY GO OUT AND KILL SOMEONE. Of course,
> the dad's an idiot, but this kind of attitute prevails with old fucks who
have
> forgotten
> what it's like to be young, and think kids are a bunch of brainless
automatons.
>
And of course you are hardly likely to help change his opinion.
Brainless is pretty apt in your case.
Automaton is pretty apt as it well describes the manner in which you just
regurgitate the same old shit.
Ice Man
wadi wrote:
Very much in the manner that you do, right Wad of Shit. LOL
Dr. Coonie
lockd...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
er violent behavior.
>
> I think it's crazy that people think violence on tv causes
violence. Do you
> think that the world would be perfect without video games and violent
tv? No,
Well, think of it this way. Violence in the media legitimizes it.
Take a look at what's going on everyday on the sports fields, and these
goons are more or less being rewarded for jack ass behavior.
Now, is it so far fteched to imagine if a birth begins with pain and
violence, a circumcision, that the victim might go on in life to
victimize others.
This premise is accepted that children who are abused ofetn go on to
become abusers. Its only a matter of " we think babies can't remember or
feel pain.". But, much animal evidence would suggest the brain is the
most programmable right around birth to perhaps one year of age.
After that learning takes place, but the emotional background, including
the ability to have empahty for others is already set!
Lockdown
"Dr. Coonie" wrote:
> In article <gsea4.109224$ri.5...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>,
> lockd...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> er violent behavior.
> >
> > I think it's crazy that people think violence on tv causes
> violence. Do you
> > think that the world would be perfect without video games and violent
> tv? No,
>
> Well, think of it this way. Violence in the media legitimizes it.
> Take a look at what's going on everyday on the sports fields, and these
> goons are more or less being rewarded for jack ass behavior.
yes but that kind of jock mentality is not new.
> Now, is it so far fteched to imagine if a birth begins with pain and
> violence, a circumcision, that the victim might go on in life to
> victimize others.
Hurt people hurt people.
We know already that violent births cause crime and violence later in
life. I'm
talking about video games later in life leading to a teenager deciding to
shoot a
bunch of people up.
> This premise is accepted that children who are abused ofetn go on to
> become abusers. Its only a matter of " we think babies can't remember or
> feel pain.". But, much animal evidence would suggest the brain is the
> most programmable right around birth to perhaps one year of age.
> After that learning takes place, but the emotional background, including
> the ability to have empahty for others is already set!
uh huh.
Dr. Coonie
lockd...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
> "Dr. Coonie" wrote:
>
> > In article <gsea4.109224$ri.5...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>,
> > lockd...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > er violent behavior.
Yes, that's true.. it tesosterone based. The Brits do their share and
they're largely intact. ( soccer )
I think it's crazy that people think violence on tv causes
> > violence. Do you
> > > think that the world would be perfect without video games and
violent
> > tv? No,
I do not think virtual violence leads to addictions or carrying out the
real thing. Columbine was pulled off by full grown men ( 17 and 18 )
not little zit pickers.
> > Well, think of it this way. Violence in the media legitimizes it.
> > Take a look at what's going on everyday on the sports fields, and
these
> > goons are more or less being rewarded for jack ass behavior.
>
> yes but that kind of jock mentality is not new.
Agreed.. but don't you think in past ten years its way out of control?
> > Now, is it so far fteched to imagine if a birth begins with pain and
> > violence, a circumcision, that the victim might go on in life to
> > victimize others.
One psychiatrist believes early trauma modifies brain connections in
the frontal areas of the brain, desensitizing males to the pain of
others, i.e. empahty.
Its funny that they never make the circumcision connection since its so
obvious. Its just NOT politically correct to suggest such a thing, it
might scare parents away from a neonatal circ for their son!
wadi
> Its funny that they never make the circumcision connection since its so
> obvious. Its just NOT politically correct to suggest such a thing, it
> might scare parents away from a neonatal circ for their son!
>
Ah
But that is your intention connie ;-)
Lockdown
"Dr. Coonie" wrote:
> In article <Akbb4.123417$ri.6...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>,
> lockd...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Dr. Coonie" wrote:
> >
> > > In article <gsea4.109224$ri.5...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com>,
> > > lockd...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > er violent behavior.
>
> Yes, that's true.. it tesosterone based. The Brits do their share and
> they're largely intact. ( soccer )
yep.
> I think it's crazy that people think violence on tv causes
> > > violence. Do you
> > > > think that the world would be perfect without video games and
> violent
> > > tv? No,
>
> I do not think virtual violence leads to addictions or carrying out the
> real thing. Columbine was pulled off by full grown men ( 17 and 18 )
> not little zit pickers.
sure they were. Not little teenagers, but big teenagers. I wouldn't
call them full-grown men, though.
> > > Well, think of it this way. Violence in the media legitimizes it.
> > > Take a look at what's going on everyday on the sports fields, and
> these
> > > goons are more or less being rewarded for jack ass behavior.
> >
> > yes but that kind of jock mentality is not new.
>
> Agreed.. but don't you think in past ten years its way out of control?
No. The stuff you see in movies from the 50s and 60s is pretty much worse
than what I ever saw at school.
One thing I will say is that violence such as severe fights, like people
ganging
up on others, (ie. cowards) and people using knives and stuff is much more
noticeable
now, but I'm pretty sure has nothing to do with circ, since I see it in
Canada too.
> > > Now, is it so far fteched to imagine if a birth begins with pain and
> > > violence, a circumcision, that the victim might go on in life to
> > > victimize others.
>
> One psychiatrist believes early trauma modifies brain connections in
> the frontal areas of the brain, desensitizing males to the pain of
> others, i.e. empahty.
> Its funny that they never make the circumcision connection since its so
> obvious. Its just NOT politically correct to suggest such a thing, it
> might scare parents away from a neonatal circ for their son!
yep. I don't think it's unreasonable to state that circumcision has an
effect, but how much of an effect is really the question for me. People
who say circumcision is harmless, I think are ignorant or wilfully blind.