Mothering Magazine
Jack
cover story = circumcision
http://www.mothering.com/sections/current_issue/current_issue.html
Andrew Usher
> Mothering Magazine, July 2008
And I'm sure they can be considered a reliable source, right?
When they agree with you!
Nothing run by women is worth a god-damn intellectually,
and they in particular exemplify the worst female tendencies.
Indeed, I'm surprise that I was even allowed to post here
http://laurashanley.blogspot.com/2008/07/homebirth-video-thats-too-hot-for.html
with a male name.
Andrew Usher
Jack
"Andrew Usher" <k_over...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e7c9bb4c-9c49-4cf4...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Andrew Usher
> I don't know what they're considered I just posted the link.
Why the hell you do think we should waste our time
looking at it when you know nothing about it?
Andrew Usher
Jack
I said I don't know if they're considered a reliable source.
But it does indicate that the issue of leaving a newborn keep his body parts
and not suffer that pain is on the mind of mothers in popular culture.
Americans are wising up.
Turin
Another cowardly liberal, projecting different faces in every
direction he/she looks...
- - -
The face of an angel, the charm of the devil ...the power of a god:
Turin
I have such sites to show you...
------------------------
http://www.myspace.com/turin_turambar
http://groups.google.com/group/Men_First/ ♂
http://turinturambar.fortunecity.com/blog/
------------------------
"He who changeth, altereth, misconstrueth, argueth with, deleteth, or
maketh a lie about these words or causeth them to not be known shall
burn in hell forever and ever...."
-----
> http://laurashanley.blogspot.com/2008/07/homebirth-video-thats-too-ho...
Andrew Usher
> You sure take a different tone on that blog, than you do here.
> Another cowardly liberal, projecting different faces in every
> direction he/she looks...
I am neither a 'liberal' nor a coward. My comment on that blog
(which was unrelated to men's issues) is not at all at
variance with anything I say here.
Andrew Usher
Turin
evidence in front of everyone's face:
Hahaha ....I didn't realize that you also have mental problems, as
well as are a female. Beyond that, I also left out “feminist”, last
time.
> Andrew Usher
> >
> > - - -
> >
> > The face of an angel, the charm of the devil ...the power of a god:
> >
> > Turin
> >
> > I have such sites to show you...
> > ------------------------
> >
> > http://www.myspace.com/turin_turambarhttp://groups.google.com/group/Men_First/♂http://turinturambar.fortunecity.com/blog/
Andrew Usher
> On Aug 5, 1:23 pm, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> denied the
> evidence in front of everyone's face:
>
> > On Aug 5, 12:43 pm, Turin <TurinTuramba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > You sure take a different tone on that blog, than you do here.
> > > Another cowardly liberal, projecting different faces in every
> > > direction he/she looks...
>
> > I am neither a 'liberal' nor a coward. My comment on that blog
> > (which was unrelated to men's issues) is not at all at
> > variance with anything I say here.
>
> Hahaha ....I didn't realize that you also have mental problems, as
> well as are a female. Beyond that, I also left out “feminist”, last
> time.
Yeah, I'm female. And you're fucking ELVIS!
Andrew Usher
Masculist
Turin is the comic relief at soc.men. Just let him have his laughs
and ignore him otherwise you will find yourself entangled in the pigs
that fly in his brains <smile>
Smitty
> Andrew Usher
Turin
For those of you who aren't familiar with little, misanthrope Tom,
Tom's whole purpose in life is in trying to embed himself in the
social unit. Insecurely, he routinely attempts to make others into
bigger pariah's than himself. Always focused on practicing
"shunning" (as he calls it), he's simply ....pitiful.
Also, like a lot of the virgins and pitifucks, who take up space in
here, he's scorned by women, and that's another big part of his
problem. So, he generally aims to feel included in the so-called
boy's clubs. Dude doesn't contribute anything, except for pointless
argument and wild statements, which are admittedly for the purpose of
getting people to pay attention to him.
He's just the quintessential mouthy little Irishman who needs his
little leprechaun ass kicked. Most people here apply his own advice
to him, and most intelligent guys are members at Men First, where we
have plenty of laughs at his expense....
- - -
Thou shalt have no other Men, before Me:
Turin
I have such sites to show you...
------------------------
http://www.myspace.com/turin_turambar
http://groups.google.com/group/Men_First/ ♂
http://turinturambar.fortunecity.com/blog/
------------------------
"He who changeth, altereth, misconstrueth, argueth with, deleteth, or
maketh a lie about these words or causeth them to not be known shall
burn in hell forever and ever...."
-----
Jack
"Turin" <TurinTu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b9524632-2f62-470d...@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 5, 1:23 pm, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> denied the
> evidence in front of everyone's face:
>> On Aug 5, 12:43 pm, Turin <TurinTuramba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > You sure take a different tone on that blog, than you do here.
>> > Another cowardly liberal, projecting different faces in every
>> > direction he/she looks...
>>
>> I am neither a 'liberal' nor a coward. My comment on that blog
>> (which was unrelated to men's issues) is not at all at
>> variance with anything I say here.
>
>
> Hahaha ....I didn't realize that you also have mental problems, as
> well as are a female. Beyond that, I also left out “feminist”, last
> time.
>
Turin
Andrew Usher
Yes, one retarded troll meets another!
Andrew Usher
Turin
Lmao ...that doesn't say much for you.
> Andrew Usher
Jake Waskett
Mothering are fairly well-known for taking an extreme anti-circumcision
stance, at least since 1997 when they published an article by notorious
activist Paul Fleiss. Interestingly, Mothering's on-line forums permit
only anti-circumcision posts: anything perceived as advocacy or defence of
circumcision is disallowed (see http://www.mothering.com/discussions/
showthread.php?t=504420).
WindingHighway
> Mothering are fairly well-known for taking an extreme anti-circumcision
> stance, at least since 1997 when they published an article by notorious
> activist Paul Fleiss. Interestingly, Mothering's on-line forums permit
> only anti-circumcision posts: anything perceived as advocacy or defence of
> circumcision is disallowed (seehttp://www.mothering.com/discussions/
> showthread.php?t=504420
It is no surprise that they censor debate. It is well established that
the anti-circumcision argument collapses in the face of open and
rational discussion.
Jack
"Jake Waskett" <ja...@waskett.org> wrote in message
news:07nmk.109008$Lw1....@newsfe29.ams2...
> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:54:10 -0400, Jack wrote:
>
>> "Andrew Usher" <k_over...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:d5490c72-0d47-44e1...@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Aug 5, 9:39 am, "Jack" <furgfurgf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know what they're considered I just posted the link.
>>>
>>> Why the hell you do think we should waste our time looking at it when
>>> you know nothing about it?
>>>
>>> Andrew Usher
>>
>> I said I don't know if they're considered a reliable source. But it does
>> indicate that the issue of leaving a newborn keep his body parts and not
>> suffer that pain is on the mind of mothers in popular culture. Americans
>> are wising up.
>
> Mothering are fairly well-known for taking an extreme anti-circumcision
> stance, at least since 1997 when they published an article by notorious
> activist Paul Fleiss.
>
Jack
"WindingHighway" <winding...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:f3499328-46dc-4664...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
------------------------------------
"The" anti-circumcision argument, as if there was only one.
I'd love to hear the rational argument for using anesthesia for neonatal
circumcisions, but only half the time in the US. How could such an advanced
medical tradition continue such an egregious and glaring inconsistency.
Year after year after year.
Jack
substance right now.
Jake Waskett
> "Jake Waskett" <ja...@waskett.org> wrote in message
> news:07nmk.109008$Lw1....@newsfe29.ams2...
>> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:54:10 -0400, Jack wrote:
>>
>>> "Andrew Usher" <k_over...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:d5490c72-0d47-44e1-
ba8d-5da...@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Aug 5, 9:39 am, "Jack" <furgfurgf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know what they're considered I just posted the link.
>>>>
>>>> Why the hell you do think we should waste our time looking at it when
>>>> you know nothing about it?
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Usher
>>>
>>> I said I don't know if they're considered a reliable source. But it
>>> does indicate that the issue of leaving a newborn keep his body parts
>>> and not suffer that pain is on the mind of mothers in popular culture.
>>> Americans are wising up.
>>
>> Mothering are fairly well-known for taking an extreme anti-circumcision
>> stance, at least since 1997 when they published an article by notorious
>> activist Paul Fleiss.
>>
> What do you think is extreme about Paul Fleiss?
Well, I'm not sure that "extreme" is the right word, but misrepresenting
the sources that he cites seems fairly ... odd.
As an example, consider the following:
"Rigorously controlled prospective studies show that circumcised American
men are at a greater risk for bacterial and viral STDs, especially
gonorrhea,43 non-gonoccal urethritis,44 human papilloma virus,45 herpes
simplex virus type 2,46 and chlamydia.47"
http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/circumcision/against-
circumcision.html
Now take a look at the literature he cites in support of his claims:
(43.) B. Donovan et al., "Male Circumcision and Common Sexually
Transmissible Diseases in a Developed Nation Setting," Genitourinary
Medicine 70 (1994): 317-320.
"Gonorrhoea, syphilis and acute hepatitis B were reported too infrequently
to reliably exclude any association with circumcision status. [...]
CONCLUSIONS--From the findings of this study, circumcision of men has no
significant effect on the incidence of common STDs in this developed
nation setting. [...]"
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1195274
(44.) G. L Smith et al, Circumcision as a Risk Factor for Urethritis in
Racial Groups," American Journal of Public Health 77 (1987): 452-454.
"A case-control study of active duty soldiers showed that both Black and
White circumcised subjects were 1.65 times as likely to have NGU as
uncircumcised subjects (95% CI: 1.37-2.00). However, circumcision was not
associated with an increased incidence of GCU."
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1646941
(45.) L S. Cook et al, "Clinical Presentation of Genital Warts among
Circumcised and Uncircumcised Heterosexual Men Attending an Urban STD
Clinic," Genitourinary Medicine 69 (1993): 262-264.
"Circumcised men were more likely than uncircumcised men to have genital
warts, but when present, warts were more often located on the distal
portion of the penis among uncircumcised men. This paradox is not
understood, but could reflect either nonspecific resistance to proximal
penile warts conferred by the foreskin, or heightened susceptibility to
various HPV types in uncircumcised men, some of which may confer
subsequent immunity to genital warts."
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1195083
(46.) I. Bassett et al., "Herpes Simplex Virus Type 2 infection of
Heterosexual Men Attending a Sexual Health Centre," Medical Journal of
Australia 160 (1994):697-700.
"Neither increasing age nor lack of circumcision was associated with HSV-2
infection."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8202004
(47.) E. O. Laumann et al, "Circumcision in the United States: Prevalence,
Prophylactic Effects, and Sexual Practice," Journal of the American
Association 277 (1997):1052-1057.
"We find no significant differences between circumcised and uncircumcised
men in their likelihood of contracting sexually transmitted diseases."
Turin
> "Andrew Usher" <k_over_hb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Lmao....another troll.
Darrin
Even Elvis was a sweet circumcised Jew! eh I kibbitz you not! eh Read
"Schmelvis: In Search of Elvis Presley's Jewish Roots" by Max Wallace
& Jonathan Goldstein. They trace back his Halachically Hebraic roots
to a great-great Jewish grandmother! Why else did he wear a Chai to go
along with his TCB?eh -D, NYC "These legendary Jewish composers penned
two of Elvis's biggest hits" - LEIBER & STOLLER (JAILHOUSE ROCK, HOUND
DOG)
Turin
Omg ...the sheer number of disturbed people on here gets more
disturbing all the time.
- - -
Beloved of the Gods:
Darrin
> "Jake Waskett" <j...@waskett.org> wrote in message
>
> news:07nmk.109008$Lw1....@newsfe29.ams2...
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:54:10 -0400, Jack wrote:
>
> >>news:d5490c72-0d47-44e1...@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
> >>> On Aug 5, 9:39 am, "Jack" <furgfurgf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> I don't know what they're considered I just posted the link.
>
> >>> Why the hell you do think we should waste our time looking at it when
> >>> you know nothing about it?
>
> >>> Andrew Usher
>
> >> I said I don't know if they're considered a reliable source. But it does
> >> indicate that the issue of leaving a newborn keep his body parts and not
> >> suffer that pain is on the mind of mothers in popular culture. Americans
> >> are wising up.
>
> > Mothering are fairly well-known for taking an extreme anti-circumcision
> > stance, at least since 1997 when they published an article by notorious
> > activist Paul Fleiss.
> What do you think is extreme about Paul Fleiss? >>
O'Doul's, Jack!eh O'Doul's!eheh Same great taste, less insanity!ehehe
Read it and weep, ya alcoholic skinfreak:
www.circinfo.net/anti_circumcision_lobby_groups.html
"Another "hero" of the anti-movement is Paul Fleiss, a pharmacist and
osteopath who obtained an MD without going to medical school as a
result of legislation passed in California in 1962 that for a brief
time allowed an osteopath to convert their degree to an MD. Fleiss
moved from Detroit to take advantage of this by becoming a
pediatrician. The anti-circ. movement quote Dr. Fleiss and his
writings extensively. Nevertheless, his scientific credibility has
always been weak. However, his integrity has also fallen by the
wayside owing to involvement in illegal activities, namely laundering
the business proceeds of his infamous daughter, Heidi Fleiss, the
Hollywood madam who provided prostitutes to celebrities. In 1995 the
Los Angeles Times reported "Last week Fleiss' father, Dr Paul Fleiss,
pleaded guilty to three felony counts of conspiring with his daughter
to defraud the Internal Revenue Service by hiding her income over
three years and making false statements to federal banks. Fleiss, 61,
a prominent pediatrician, is expected to be sentenced to four to 10
months jail and be fined $50,000. His sentencing is set for
September". In the end Fleiss received a suspended sentence as part of
a plea bargain for giving evidence in this case. A long article was
published on Fleiss by the LA Times Sunday April 9 issue 1995. In it
his involvement in holistic health care and breast feeding is
described. In one of several malpractice complaints "the parents
contend that Fleiss was so insistent that they breast feed their
infant, despite the mother's difficulty in producing milk, that the
child eventually became dehydrated and went into hypertensive cardiac
arrest. The baby ended up losing a kidney ..." "In [another] case, a
Burbank couple charged that Fleiss had been too lax when their 3-year-
old developed a fever. The doctor, they said, told them it was nothing
to worry about. Then the child suffered a seizure resulting in
irreversible brain damage".
>
> Interestingly, Mothering's on-line forums permit
>
>
>
> > only anti-circumcision posts: anything perceived as advocacy or defence of
> > circumcision is disallowed (seehttp://www.mothering.com/discussions/
> > showthread.php?t=504420).- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Darrin
Yeah, your Coney Island fun house mirror needs adjusting!eheheheeh As
the old adage goes, "crazy people don't know they're crazy!" ehe -D,
NYC "Roman emperor, Elagabalus (218-222), had such a warm attitude
toward Judaism, he had himself circumcised and would not eat pork" -
THE JEWISH CONNECTION BY M. HIRSCH GOLDBERG.."The ladies love a
circumcision!" eh - RABBI TUCKMAN, ROBIN HOOD: MEN IN TIGHTS.."Five
Jewish men influenced the history of Western civilization: Moses said
the law is everything. Jesus said love is everything. Marx said
capital is everything. Freud said sex is everything. Einstein said
everything is relative" eh.."The Egg Cream is psychologically the
opposite of circumcision - it pleasurably reaffirms your Jewishness!"
ehe - MEL BROOKS (b. Kaminsky, umpteenth sweet, Jewish
NYer).."Basically, he's self-conscious about his dick, and he wants a
circumcision" eh - NIP/TUCK.."I was born in Waukegan, a long, long,
long time ago. As a matter of fact, our Rabbi was an Indian..he used a
tomahawk...I was eight days old..what did I know?" ehe - JACK BENNY,
b. Kubelsky, sweet Jew, quoted in Irving A. Fein's Jack Benny.."If all
2,000,000 boys born in the US annually were circumcised, the following
would be prevented during their lifetimes: 7,000 cases of HIV, 10,000
cases of syphilis, 20,000 cases of pyeleonephritis, 2,000 with
concurrent bacterema, 1,500 cases of hypertension, 150 cases of end
stage renal disease, 2,000 cases of penile cancer, 200,000 cases of
phimosis, and 250,000-500,000 cases of balanophimosis" - PROFESSOR
BRIAN MORRIS, 30+ years of unbias research on the benefits of
circumcision.."Can I just talk about one other issue I had? I'm almost
hesitant to say this...because I'm not gay...I'm not looking at other
guys...but the whole uncircumcised thing..when they're doing close-
ups...It's just...that's a whole other issue...it's just disgusting!"
ehe - BABA BOOEY, aka Boy Gary Dell'Abate, circumcised I-talian,
producer - Howard Stern (umpteenth sweet, Jewish NYer - KOAM - single-
handedly changed the face of radio) show, commenting on having seen a
recent porn.."A London Times Survey (1996) by Dr. T. Stuttaford found
that among experienced Women & Prostitutes, 90% preferred sex with
circumcised men because it was more hygenic and pleasurable" - DR.
SCHOEN.."Be wise, circumcise!".."Born imperfect, made perfect on the
eighth day!".."To perfect the world (TIKUN OLAM) is in Jewish thought
- the obligation of every human being. Where better to begin by fixing
God's goof of foreskin?".."Life insurance companies should class
wearers of a prepuce under the head of a hazardous risk" - MEDICAL
WRITER, UNKNOWN.."Part of the foreskin they throw away after
circumcision, I believe it is called SCHMUCK" eh - DAVID GALE (Kevin
Spacey in The Life Of David Gale).."Circumcision is like a substantial
and well-secured annuity; every year of life you draw the benefits.
Parents cannot make a better paying investment for their little boys"
- DR. P.C. REMONDINO.."The anti-circumcision craze has developed
because groups of conservative, sensitive, medically misinformed
individuals, some with fanatical emotionalism, have not seen the
consequences of a society where males are not circumcised. While
medical prophylactic measures are readily accepted by our society,
surgical prophylaxis is in danger of being discarded by an
overemphasis on the return to the "natural." The intense pain of
natural childbirth is seen as a reward while the minor discomfort, if
any, of circumcision is magnified beyond reason" - DR.GERALD WEISS
http://tinyurl.com/2tjkbc (Most Common Medical procedures in the US -
Circumcision #3)
http://tinyurl.com/bf8gs (Circumcision provides a 2-8 protective fold
against HIV)
http://tinyurl.com/4dr94 (Neonatal Circumcision: A Current Appraisal -
Dr. Thomas E. Wiswell, FAAP)
http://www.circinfo.net (Benefits of circumcision - Prof. Brian Morris
- 30+ years of unbias research on the benefits of circumcision)
http://tinyurl.com/6d9e7 (Circumcision - a lifetime of medical
benefits: Women's Sexual Penile Preference, Sexual Activity, Psych
Effect)
http://tinyurl.com/ytylqx (New York Jewish History)
http://tinyurl.com/3yydhb (Brach's - America's Largest Kosher
Supermarket, NY)
http://www.abigaels.com (Abigael's on Broadway - World's largest
Kosher restaurant)
http://tinyurl.com/ysfgtl (Temple Emanu-El, NYC - World's Largest
Synagogue)
http://tinyurl.com/26fdnj (US Study - Jews Richer Because Of
Religion)
http://tinyurl.com/2v6n4j (ABC NEWS: Manhattan: Where the rich are
filthy rich)
http://tinyurl.com/nqp8w (Forbes: Most Expensive Zip Codes: #1 -
11962, Sagaponack, NY - Hamptons; NY - NY State & NYC appear 20+ more
times)
http://tinyurl.com/2n8e5h (CNN Money: World's most expensive cities,
2007, NYC #15 (down from 10)
http://tinyurl.com/pyz6a (Top 10 Places To Live & Work For Those Under
35 - NY, NY)
http://tinyurl.com/qs7la (World's Most Expensive Hotel Suites - #1 -
Plaza Hotel, NY, NY)
http://tinyurl.com/7hexr (Best States For Raising Healthy Kids: #2 -
NY)
http://tinyurl.com/3nyhl (America's 5 Most/Least Expensive Cities To
Live In: #1 - NYC - most expensive)
http://tinyurl.com/3c6kk (Top 10 Places America Goes To Have Fun - #3
Times Square)
http://tinyurl.com/234vsm (NYC - safest, largest city in the US)
http://tinyurl.com/46f53 (NY, NY - Capital Of The World)
http://tinyurl.com/2tjcgw (A Study In Differences - Are Jews Smarter?
By Richard Cohen, Washington Post)
http://tinyurl.com/38m6o (Jewish population of the US by State)
http://tinyurl.com/666cx (Jewish population of the World)
http://tinyurl.com/68ttu (Jewish Nobel Prizes)
http://tinyurl.com/6qb5e (Is It True - Do Jews Win More Nobel Prizes
than anyone else?)
http://tinyurl.com/4cz9j (Tel-Aviv - Top 10 High-Tech Cities In The
World)
http://tinyurl.com/6exvb (Phenomenon Of The Jews)
http://tinyurl.com/ihif (Jews, IQs & Nobel Laureates)
http://tinyurl.com/9oea7 (Do Jews Run Hollywood!? You Bet They do, and
what of it?" by sweet Ben Stein)
Andrew Usher
> > Omg ...the sheer number of disturbed people on here gets more> disturbing all the time.>>
>
> Yeah, your Coney Island fun house mirror needs adjusting!eheheheeh As
> the old adage goes, "crazy people don't know they're crazy!" ehe
That just might apply to you, Darrin ...
Andrew Usher
Darrin
Not crazy, just a tad flaky! eh I simply go about my pro-circumcision
(aka pro-common sense eh) stance in a different way!ehe -D, NYC "In
the visual arts, for scenes involving the naked male, it is quite
plausible that American producers of erotic films and publishers of
photographic works choose circumcised men, or at least uncircumcised
men whose foreskin is smooth and free from loose, wrinkled skin, as
the latter lacks visual appeal, especially to those who are not used
to seeing an uncircumcised penis. Societal attitudes, at least in the
USA, are reflected in the entertainment industry, such as TV shows.
With apologies for introducing anecdotal material, a few examples are
nonetheless potentially illuminating and amusing to many. For example,
the character 'Elaine', in an episode of the TV sitcom 'Seinfeld'
stated that "[the uncircumcised penis] looks like an alien!" Similarly
in an episode of 'Sex in the City', also set in New York, one
character recoiled in shock on seeing her new boyfriend was
uncircumcised. It was clear that the quite sexually experienced 30-
something women in this show were unused to the foreskin, describing
it as resembling a sharpei (a dog breed with excessive rolls of skin).
The new boyfriend's status had been bothering him anyway so he got
circumcised, and liked his new look and sex so much he dumped the new
girlfriend so he "could take the doggy for a walk" to try out on other
women around town." eh - PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS, 30+ years of unbias
Jack
their business.
Jack
"Darrin" <darr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:6ad56f86-d74d-4bb5...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Not feeding a baby is certainly extreme and she ought to be locked up for
it.
Jack
Jake Waskett
You seem to miss the point, Jack. Does it not strike you as strange that
Fleiss, while making "the case against circumcision" (as he titles his
article) actually misrepresents his references? In short: why does Fleiss
need to lie in order to make a case against circumcision?
Jack
I don't why he would need to lie since there are so many rational reasons
not to do it.
MCP
"Jack" <furgfu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:CICdnRI67bZlZwfV...@posted.echolabs...
Jack
"MCP" <gf010...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:F6Gmk.80774$dz3....@newsfe20.ams2...