Homosexuality (God approves!)
Hansss
prematurely whacks out the "usual" six anti-gay passages, consider this:
Genesis 19:4-5 (Sodom) "bring them out unto us, that we may know them."
The Sodom story is perhaps the most commonly used anti-gay biblical
passage. At the same time, it is also the least compelling. Of the more than
dozen writers in the bible who comment upon the Sodom story, not one connects
their sins and eventual destruction with homosexuality. What was the sin of
the women of Sodom?
Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind...
abomination"
Many are quick to cite Leviticus when condemning homosexuality. It is most
likely that the Hebrews associated the practice of male homosexuality with the
cultic practices of neigboring peoples. The act of a male lying with a male
was called an "abomination," in Hebrew toevah. Toevah was often associated
with idolatry and specifically with temple prostitution. Again, why are
lesbians ignored if OT Law was supposed to condemn ALL manner of homosexuality?
1 Corinthians 6:9 "effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind... shall
inherit the kingdom of God" / 1 Timothy 1:10 "them that defile themselves with
mankind"
It remains the mistaken contention of some that Paul spoke of homosexuals
in his letters letters to the Corinthians and to Timothy. The error comes from
cultural bias which has crept into the translation of his letters; specifically
regarding these two words (malakoi and arsenokoitai).
The term arsenokoitai ("male-bedders") is only used twice in the original
texts of the Bible; in the two passages by Paul just cited. Usages of the word
by contemporaries of Paul (secular or otherwise) seem to be almost nonexistant.
A generalization of the passage to condemn all homosexuals is disingenuous.
For one reason, it can in no way refer to lesbians.
Several translations link the Malakoi of the New Testament with the
Kadeshim (male temple prostitutes) of the Old Testament. The KJV rendering
"effeminate" owes itself to this as it borrowed the translation from the
Rheim-Douay Version which translated both terms as "effeminate." The
Rheims-Douay Version was actually a translation of the Latin Vulgate, rather
than original Hebrew and Greek. The Latin rendering of the Old Testament
Kadeshim was effemenati.
Romans 1:26-27 "that which is against nature"
The first mistake many Christians make is to miss the subject of this
passage. In a rush to condemn homosexuality, they fail to see that Paul is
condemning idolatry. The sexual immorality was not the cause of Paul's rebuke
but rather the effect of turning away from God. Such persons engaged in "sexual
impurity" as the result of a punishment from the Lord. Paul wrote of men and
women who had given up their natural desires. If homosexual acts were contrary
to their natural orientation, then these people were presumably heterosexuals.
Hans-Michael
http://members.aol.com/hansss/bible-stuff.html
"Cool Bible stuff in 20 different languages!"
Jubilee Temple
Butch are you now "Hansss?" When did you open an AOL account?
Frank
Hansss wrote:
--
Bro. Frank
Jubilee Temple
http://homepages.infoseek.com/~jubileetemple/index.html
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life;
and he that winneth souls is wise. Proverbs 11:30
Butch
<jte...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Butch are you now "Hansss?" When did you open an AOL account?
>
>Frank
No, I am not Hansss. What newsgroup was this on? I do not see it on
the groups I use. I have read some of Hansss posts in the pastand we
agree on a lot.
Butch....
Another friend is always welcome!
Hansss
><jte...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>>Butch are you now "Hansss?" When did you open an AOL account?
>No, I am not Hansss. What newsgroup was this on?
I posted in "alt.christnet" (and don't crosspost). Are you and Bro. Frank good
buddies? For complete source texts on the bible anf homosexuality (the usual 6
scripture +) in as many as 60 translations, check out my web site below.
(Thanks for the kind word, Butch.)
Jubilee Temple
Butch wrote:
> No, I am not Hansss. What newsgroup was this on? I do not see it on
> agree on a lot.
alt.christnet
Jubilee Temple
Hansss wrote:
> I posted in "alt.christnet" (and don't crosspost).
>
>Are you and Bro. Frank good buddies?
Platonic !
Jesus way for you
>The Sodom story is perhaps the most commonly used anti-gay biblical
>passage. At the same time, it is also the least compelling.
Where do you think the word SODOMY came from!
Jesus way for you
>Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind...
>Again, why are lesbians ignored if OT Law was supposed
>to condemn ALL manner of homosexuality?
Isnt it enough that it condemns gays to death.
Jesus way for you
>1 Corinthians 6:9 "effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.>The
error comes from
>cultural bias which has crept into the translation of his letters;
The Bible says clearly here that gays "WONT inherit the kingdom of God" How is
it that only you know how to transalate this verse. I trust the Bible on this
and not what someone in the modern world makes up.
Hansss
>Where do you think the word SODOMY came from!
It was an invention of the early church. Ancient biblical interpretations of
Sodom had nothing to do with any sexual aspect. (If they did, they would
probably have criticized Lot for trying to pimp his daughters and later
sleeping with them and getting both pregnant.) Only the last biblical
reference (Jude 7) brings up sex and it doesn't even mention homosexuality, but
rather heterosexual offenses. Keep this in mind:
1) There is no record of the Sodomites engaging in any homosexual acts
whatsoever.
2) The only connection of Sodom to homosexuality was the threat of rape to the
guests of Lot.
3) This threat is a legitimate condemnation of homosexuality in general as much
as the parallel story in Judges 19 (with its commission of rape against the
female guest of the Gibean) is a legitimate condemnation of heterosexuality.
4) Of the more than dozen writers in the bible who comment upon the Sodom
story, not one connects their sins and eventual destruction with homosexuality.
Only the last biblical reference to Sodom (Jude 1:7) refers to sexual sins,
fornication and the Sodomites' offense against the angels.
5) The only sin for which God is recorded to have destroyed entire cultures was
the worship of idols or other gods.
6) The book of Ezekiel tells us: "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom:
She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help
the poor and needy." (Ezek. 16:49) Ezekiel goes on to say, "They were haughty
and committed toevah. Therefore i did away with them."
7) The context of Ezekiel 16 regards the infidelity of the Jews. They had
constructed shrines to other gods and had consorted with the gentiles. "Because
of your toevah [idols] and because you gave them your children's blood, I will
strip you in front of you lovers as well as those you hated." (Ezek 16:36) The
prophet then went on to list the sins of Sodom, though he curiously ommitted
any word about homosexuality.
merlin
> The Bible says
what has jesus said to you? what has god said to you? again we have
someone speaking for a religion that has never met god. how many writers
of the bible do you really think had any more personal experience with god
than you have had?
'the bible says,' has become a political slogan and not the reference to
holy scripture we might all wish it were.
> clearly
clearly?
where does it say anything about homosexauls clearly? are you reading one
of those new bibles that has been rewritten in the last fifty years to
spike homosexauls? you might also want to refer the any red lettering in
your bible to see what jesus says about any of this.
> here that gays "WONT inherit the kingdom of God"
where does your bible say this? and in what language are you reading it?
is this the ONLY reason you worship god to get into the kingdom of god?
you won't make it with that purpose in mind, it is selfish to live your
life only to get into heaven and not be kind loving and accepting of
everyone with respect for humanity.
go in your selfishness. go try to get into heaven by telling us what god
will allow everyone else to do, when you have never met god. go and try
to get close to god, then tell us what you THINK god thinks.
> How is
> it that only you know how to transalate this verse.
how is it that the only reason you worship god is to get into heaven?
> I trust the Bible
which bible? the political tool that many christians read that has been
rewriten simply to gay bash?
> on this
> and not what someone in the modern world makes up.
the bible is made up, it was written and compiled three hundred years
after jesus death by constantine, and constantine definately had a
personal agenda in collating the bible. trust god, trust your own
experiences with god, when we lean outward on the world or a book for
trust we are easily confused and tricked into hating and judging as you
are doing and NOT loving as jesus teaches us.
call on jesus, he will visit you personally and then talk to jesus about
your convictions on homosexaulity, you will be very surprised, for jesus
will speak to you about your problems for sure and not be one twig
interested in your complaints about what your neighbors do or do not do in
bed.
in love,
merlin
Jesus way for you
>dear jesus freakish,
Good start, Merlin. You can't defend your perverted lifestyle, so you have to
call names. But if I am a freak at least its for Jesus and not because of
unnatural sinful sex.
>what has jesus said to you? what has god said to you?
Jesus/God speak through the Holy Bible.
>'the bible says,' has become a political slogan and not the
>reference to holy scripture we might all wish it were.
I quoted scripture, but you are too blind to see that.
>where does it say anything about homosexauls clearly?
"homosexauls"? In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 St. Paul mentions specifically
HOMOSEXUALS. "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
homosexuals, nor Sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (NKJV)
>where does your bible say this? and in what language are
>you reading it?
Its English. You understand plain English dont you?
>is this the ONLY reason you worship god to get into the
>kingdom of god?
Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God. You cant enter it if you continue your
lifestyle.
>go in your selfishness. go try to get into heaven by telling us
>what god will allow everyone else to do, when you have never
>met god. go and try to get close to god, then tell us what you
>THINK god thinks.
Are you a Christian? If you are you could talk with God too!
>the bible is made up, it was written and compiled three hundred
>years after jesus death by constantine
Nonsense. The Bible was written partly centuries before Jesus with the last
parts written within the first century AD. Where did you learn your Bible?
>jesus will speak to you about your problems for sure and not
>be one twig interested in your complaints about what your
>neighbors do or do not do in bed.
>in love,
"love"? I doubt it. You start off by calling me names and fill your post with
lies abour the Bible and Jesus.
Hansss
Some like to single out homosexuality as an especially heinous sin because of
the penalty that was attached to it - death. (Bear in mind that "homosexuality
per se wasn't condemned, but rather male homosexual acts reminiscent of cult
prostitution.) Yet, capital punishment was also the OT sentence for
manslaughter, kidnap, children who cursed their parents, people who did any
manner of work on Saturdays, adherents to other religions, contempt of court
and refusal to obey one's parents. (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:16, 17, Ex 35:2, Dt 13:9, Dt
17:12, Dt 21:21) Should our civil law reflect the mores of the ancient Hebrews?
It would be hypocritical to stand upon the two arguably anti-gay OT scriptures
and yet ignore the many which no longer conform to our culture.
Jubilee Temple
Hansss wrote:
> Some like to single out homosexuality as an especially heinous sin because of
> the penalty that was attached to it - death.
The wages of sin is death and no one is righteous, not even one! (Rom
6:23; 3:10}
1 Cor 6:9,10 (NASB} Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not
inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor
idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves,
nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall
inherit the kingdom of God.
The point *most* Christians are trying to make is, homosexuality is no
better or worse than thievery, drunkenness and/or covetousness... All
are manifestations of man's sin nature and need to be repented of and
laid at the cross. To believe, or maybe worse to teach, otherwise is
very egregious. Moreover, for those who coddle these teachers of lies
and perversion for their own ends are just as guilty!
Hansss
>even one! (Rom 6:23; 3:10}
Of course you realize that this scripture is contradicted elsewhere in the
bible. Noah was called righteous (even though he got drunk) as was Lot (who
tried to pimp his own daughters and later knocked them up!)
Genesis 6:9 Noah was a righteous man
2 Peter 2:7-8 and if he rescued righteous Lot...
>1 Cor 6:9,10 (NASB} [...neither the] effeminate, nor
>homosexuals, [...] shall inherit the kingdom of God.
It's a shame that anti-gay Christians have to hid behind such a translation.
What the NASB translates as "homosexuals" comes from the Greek "arsenokoitai"
(lit. "male-bedders"). It can IN NO WAY refer to lesbians, so on the face of
it, "homosexuals" is too all-inclusive" of a rendering. Indeed, Paul wasn't
trying to indict all male homosexuals either, but rather Greek men who resorted
to by prostitutes. cf. Luther's rendering "Knabenschänder" (abusers of boys).
"Effeminates" is likewise a skewed translation. The NIVand NRSV translate this
as "male prostitutes." Tthe King James Version speaks of "the effeminate." This
poor rendering of the Greek word malakoi has been used to condemn gays for the
past four centuries. The mistranslation owes in part to the already prevalent
prejudice against gays present during preparation of this version of the Bible.
It also illustrates a common misconception which is held by many people even
today, namely the stereotype that all gay men are "effeminate" or feminine in
their actions or appearance. Yet Paul was a Greek speaking Jew and a Roman
citizen. In the culture in which he wrote the word malakoi, those who engaged
in homosexual acts were not considered to be of questionable manhood. The
Greeks even formed a legion of warriors composed entirely of gay couples. The
group possessed an incredible esprit de corps and could boast of so many
victories that even today's Marines would have been proud. The KJV rendering is
actually a borowing of a translation of a translation. The history begins with
the 405AD Latin translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. The Latin Vulgate
translated the Hebrew kadeshim as effeminati. The 1582 Catholic Rheims Version
transposed this term from the Old Testament to the New when rendering malakoi
as "effeminite." The KJV then borrowed this for its 1611 version, and the
translation has survived to the modern day.
>The point *most* Christians are trying to make is,
>homosexuality is no better or worse than thievery,
>drunkenness and/or covetousness...
You see now, Frank that *most Christians* are wrong in assuming Paul was
referring to homosexuality in general.
>To believe, or maybe worse to teach, otherwise is very
>egregious. Moreover, for those who coddle these teachers
>of lies and perversion for their own ends are just as guilty!
The real perversion is to twist scripture and falsely condemn those who God
does not.
Jubilee Temple
Hansss wrote:
<SNIP>
>Jubilee Temple wrote:
>
> >1 Cor 6:9,10 (NASB} [...neither the] effeminate, nor
> >homosexuals, [...] shall inherit the kingdom of God.
<SNIP>
> It's a shame that anti-gay Christians have to hid behind such a translation.
> What the NASB translates as "homosexuals" comes from the Greek "arsenokoitai"
> (lit. "male-bedders").
>
> "Effeminates" is likewise a skewed translation.
<SNIP>
> >The point *most* Christians are trying to make is,
> >homosexuality is no better or worse than thievery,
> >drunkenness and/or covetousness...
> You see now, Frank that *most Christians* are wrong in assuming Paul was
> referring to homosexuality in general.
Hansss,
It's a waste of my time and NG space re-debating this topic.
Butch/JohnJ/Tim Dalton/TimmyD used the same arguments you presented.
Just recently in alt.bible your line of reasoning was utterly destroyed
and rendered inept with the proper hermeneutics of scripture and by the
writing of a historical church Bishop.
I suggest you do a dejanews search.
merlin
> Good start, Merlin. You can't defend your perverted lifestyle,
i can tell you have been reading the bible, you use insulting language
against a total stranger.
> so you have to
> call names.
you are the silly one condemning everyone. you are the one calling someone
a pervert and pretending to be a spokesmodel for god whom you have never
met.
> But
but what?
> if I am a freak at least its for Jesus and not because of
> unnatural sinful sex.
is that not the nick you use?
> Jesus/God speak through the Holy Bible.
please point out any specific text dictated from god.
> I quoted scripture, but you are too blind to see that.
again, this is not how jesus would speak to anyone. you are intentionally
cruel and suggests that you have never met jesus.
> "homosexauls"? In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 St. Paul mentions specifically
> HOMOSEXUALS. "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
> homosexuals, nor Sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
> revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (NKJV)
what is nkjv? you are reading one of those new perverted bibles that calls
people a name that has only existed for the last 50 years? paul never
used the word homosexual you freaky deaky.
> Its English. You understand plain English dont you?
so merlin has to speak english to speak toyou? i guess god only speaks
english then?
> Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God. You cant enter it if you
continue your
> lifestyle.
jesus refused the kingdom of god on earth, you are preaching for something
jesus refused when tempted in the desert. go figure.
> Are you a Christian?
i can tell you are not a christian as there is no joy or love towards all
men, as was announced was jesus purpose at his birth, you have already
called merlin a pervert.
the word sodomite is meant for people like you that insist that everyone
have sex with them as you do or with a deligate to prove their manhood.
> If you are you could talk with God too!
you haven't even asked have you. you have judged. so let that be your answer.
> Nonsense.
that is exactly what merlin thinks of your opinions. lol
> The Bible was written partly centuries before Jesus with the last
> parts written within the first century AD.
you have been mislead or have never studied the true history of your bible.
> Where did you learn your Bible?
not in your segregated church.
> "love"? I doubt it.
you have already called merlin a pervert why would merlin expect you to
have any uderstanding of jesus message of love?
> You start off by calling me names
and you start off tell merlin, merlin is going to hell silly freaky person.
> and fill your post with
> lies abour the Bible and Jesus.
you don't know the truth about the bible, and you certainly do not act
like jesus.
btw,
jesus never said he was the way, jesus said,
i am is the way.
big difference.
freaky.
in love,
merlin
merlin
han...@aol.com.nospam (Hansss) wrote:
> >From: jesus...@aol.com (Jesus way for you)
> >Isnt it enough that it condemns gays to death.
>
did you really threaten gays and lesbians with death? freaky? did you
really suggests that your god will kill all homosexauls?
this is why matthew sheppard and others are murdered all the time. for
once i turn to the greater christian community and suggest that you help
this soul who pretends to speak for god and wants too kill all gays and
lesbians, do we not all see the link between this and the very real gay
bashing that is going on in america?
this is similar to revmarks fantasy about throwing all homosexauls in a
pit and burning them don't you think? this is the same fantasy.
in love,
merlin
merlin
the word homosexaul is only 50 years old, that would suggest that the
scriptures you are quoting were written less than 50 years ago.
in love,
merlin
Jubilee Temple
merlin wrote:
h ouk oidate oti adikoi basileian qeou ou klhronomhsousin mh planasqe
oute pornoi oute eidwlolatrai oute moixoi oute malakoi oute arsenokoitai
oute kleptai oute pleonektai oute mequsoi ou loidoroi oux arpages
basileian qeou ou klhronomhsousin
See Merlin, same thing!
With warmest regards and love,
Frank
Hansss
>and you start off tell merlin, merlin is going to hell silly
>freaky person.
I don't think that stooping to the level of a homophobe is necessary to win the
debate. Take "Jesusway" on using the same scriptures he/she uses. There was the
old favorite "man shall not lie with man, it is an abomination." What is
really meant by Lev. 18:22 and does it actually condemn homosexuals?
Let us take the latter question first. This answer is an obvious and emphatic
"no!" First of all, homosexuals consist of both gay men and lesbians. NOWHERE
does the Mosaic Law forbid lesbian behavior.
Some justify extra criticism regarding the supposed sin of homosexuality given
the characterization "abomination." They seem to fail to realize that the same
word in Leviticus 18 relating supposedly to homogenital contact ("abomination"
- Hebrew: toevah) is also used to describe many other practices, some of which
are rather innocuous today. The things that were toevah to the Hebrews include:
sex with menstruating women (Lev 18:22), the silver and gold of idols (Deut
7:25), the rabbit, the pig and shellfish (Deut 14:3-21), psychics (Deut
18:9-12), unfair weights and measures (Deut 25:13-16), women who wear men's
clothes (Deut 22:5), a man who remarries his divorced wife (Deut 24:4), a women
who defends her husband by crushing his opponent's genitals (Deut 25:11-16), as
well as any person who disobeys the law (Prov 28:9).
So what was Moses seeking to prohibit? In actuality the key is found in other
(poorly translated and sorrowfully abused) biblical passages vainly applied to
homosexuals. The KJV says in1 Kings XIIII:24 "And there were also Sodomites in
the land, and they did according to all the *abominations* of the nations." No
reputable modern translation uses the term "Sodomites" here, but instead
properly render the Hebrew as "temple prostitutes." Even the 14th century
Wycliffe bible (one of the earliest English versions) recognized this.
What Moses was attempting to do was to eliminate any and all religious
practices related to the gentiles that the Jews had driven out. Moses isn't
fobidding a sexual act per se, but rather cultic religious practices.
Interestingly, the scant few NT passages that are slung against gays also
relate to prostitution and following other gods. Romans 1 is clearly condemning
idolaters and 1 Cor 6:9 (and 1 Tim 1:10) addresses male prostitution.
So don't go immediately ad hominem. Instruct your brothers and sisters in
Christ!
Hansss
>Hansss wrote:
>> It's a shame that anti-gay Christians have to hide behind
>>such a translation. What the NASB translates as "homo-
>>sexuals" comes from the Greek "arsenokoitai" (lit. male-
>>bedders"). "Effeminates" is likewise a skewed translation.
>It's a waste of my time and NG space re-debating this topic.
Tsk, tsk, Frank. If you think it such a waste of time, don't engage gay
Christians in this debate.
>Just recently in alt.bible your line of reasoning was utterly
>destroyed
Sorry, Frank. I don't subscribe to alt.bible and i won't crosspost. It seems
like you're trying to win the argument by claiming that it has already been
won. Truth by asserion. Poor form, Frank.
Again, why do Chirstians (especially those who are familiar with Greek) use 1
Corinthans 6:9 in order to condemn ALL homosexuals? They disingenuously relly
on such renderings as "effeminate," "sodomites," or even "homosexuals" when
they know too well that this perverts Paul's writings.
Consider this excerpt from a list of various translations for the Greek
"arsenokoitai", what the KJV calls "abusers of themselues with mankinde":
WYE 1380 lecchours of men, that don synne of Sodom
GEN 1560 buggerers
MAC 1729 brutal
WES 1755 sodomites
RSV 1946 sexual perverts
NIV 1973 homosexual offenders
LUT 1522 knabenschender (child molesters)
1) The various translations of the idiom arsenokoitai as used by Paul give
evidence as to its ambiguity. Puting asside personal bias, a homosexual is not
synonymous with sodomite, pervert or pedophile.
2) The term arsenokoitai is only used twice in the original texts of the Bible;
in the two passages by Paul just cited. Usages of the word by contemporaries of
Paul (secular or otherwise) seem to be almost nonexistant. (Father D.
Helminiak, Ph.D., a Catholic theologian writes in his book "What the Bible
really Says About Homosexuality": "1 Corinthians is our earliest record of the
word." Should Paul have intended to condemn child molesters with this word (as
Arndt and Gingrich suggest and some translations reflect), a generalization of
the passage to condemn all homosexuals would be disingenuous.
Malakoi suffers from the same lexical complexity. The word malakos means
literally "soft," not "homosexual."
Consider this excerpt from a list of various translations:
1 Kings 14:22 (kadeshim) - 1 Corinthians 6:9
(malakoi)
WYL 1388 men of wymmens condiciouns - letchouris ayen kynde
COV 1535 whoremongers - weaklinges
RHD 1609 effeminates - effeminat
MOF 1913 temple-prostitutes - catamites
NAB 1941 cult prostitues - sodomites
RSV 1952 male cult prostitutes - sexual perverts
NIV 1973 male shrine prostitutes - male prostitutes
NCV 1987 male prostitutes - male prostitutes
NRS 1989 male temple prostitutes - male prostitutes
CEV 1995 prostitutes at the shrines - pervert
NLT 1996 shrine prostitues - male prostitutes
1) Hellenistic literature is replete with examples of heterosexuals being
characterized as malakos.
2) The label seemed to indicate some sort of general moral weakness or excess.
3) The early church fathers invoked the word malakos against masturbation.
4) Arndt and Gingrich (one of the most respected lexica) list the reference
"catamite." Even the NASB among others adopts this rendering for malakoi with
the translation "male prostitutes."
5) Several translations link the Malakoi of the New Testament with the Kadeshim
(male temple prostitutes) of the Old Testament. The KJV rendering "effeminate"
owes itself to this as it borrowed the translation from the Rheim-Douay Version
which translated both terms as "effeminate." The Rheims-Douay Version was
actually a translation of the Latin Vulgate, rather than original Hebrew and
Greek. The Latin rendering of the Old Testament Kadeshim was effemenati.
>I suggest you do a dejanews search.
Suggest you open your mind...
Hansss
>oute malakoi oute arsenokoitai
(neither the effeminate nor abusers... KJV)
*malakoi* means literally "soft", so what is the justification for applying
this to all homosexuals.
*arseno-koitai* is a term that Paul apparently made up himself. It's component
parts mean "male" and "bed". Again, what makes one so sure this is a reference
to all gays? How can it AT ALL refer to any lesbians?
>With warmest regards and love,
I appreciate this sort of tone. It reminds us that we are all brothers and
sisters in Christ.
Jesus way for you
>dear freakish,
Here we go again with the name calling.
>i can tell you have been reading the bible, you use insulting
>language against a total stranger.
Don't blame me for what the Bible says!
>you are the silly one condemning everyone. you are the
>one calling someone a pervert
The Bible condemns your lifestyle ans I did NOT cal YOU a pervert, but your
lifestyle IS PERVERTED!
>please point out any specific text dictated from god.
Leviticus 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him
out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying (read on for yoursef, Merlin
to see what God dictated)
>again, this is not how jesus would speak to anyone.
I just made the observation that you are blind. Jesus called people fools and
vipers. Have you ever read the New Testament!???
>you are intentionally cruel
I dont think you can handle the truth.
> paul never used the word homosexual you freaky deaky.
Dont you realize how stupid you sound?
>so merlin has to speak english to speak toyou?
It would help since i dont speak other languages.
>jesus refused the kingdom of god on earth,
Jesus said the kingdom of God was at hand.
>i can tell you are not a christian as there is no joy or love
>towards all men
It's because I love you and dont want anyone to go to hell that i bother.
>the word sodomite is meant for people like you that insist
>that everyone have sex with them
I DONT want to have sex with YOU
>you have already called merlin a pervert
This is a LIE
>jesus never said he was the way
Do you even OWN a bible?
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way
John 14:6
>freaky
Back to name calling?
Jesus way for you
>did you really threaten gays and lesbians with death?
No. But all who are separated from God will die eternally.
>freaky?
What is this obsession with calling me "freaky"
>did you really suggests that your god will kill all homosexauls?
"homosexauls" kill them selves when they disobey God's Word.
>for once i turn to the greater christian community and suggest that you help
>this soul who pretends to speak for god and wants too kill all gays and
lesbians
I dont speak for God and I dont want to kill you. In fact I want you to LIVE!
>this is similar to revmarks fantasy about throwing all homosexauls in a
>pit and burning them don't you think? this is the same fantasy.
You are acting very strange.
Dore Williamson
However, sexual lust in any manner is unacceptable to God, whether homo or
hetero. Homos wouldn't exist if God had not created them to be. It is not in
the desire, but the action upon that temptation that is judged. As it is
with homo's it is with heteros.
Where your treasure is so is your heart.
--
http://members.tripod.com/~spirit_of_prophecy/index.html
Dore
Jubilee Temple wrote in message <37978C44...@san.rr.com>...
>
>Hansss wrote:
>
><SNIP>
>
>>Jubilee Temple wrote:
>>
>> >1 Cor 6:9,10 (NASB} [...neither the] effeminate, nor
>> >homosexuals, [...] shall inherit the kingdom of God.
>
><SNIP>
>
>> It's a shame that anti-gay Christians have to hid behind such a
translation.
>> What the NASB translates as "homosexuals" comes from the Greek
"arsenokoitai"
>> (lit. "male-bedders").
>>
>> "Effeminates" is likewise a skewed translation.
>
><SNIP>
>
>> >The point *most* Christians are trying to make is,
>> >homosexuality is no better or worse than thievery,
>> >drunkenness and/or covetousness...
>
>> You see now, Frank that *most Christians* are wrong in assuming Paul was
>> referring to homosexuality in general.
>
>
>Hansss,
>
>It's a waste of my time and NG space re-debating this topic.
>
>Butch/JohnJ/Tim Dalton/TimmyD used the same arguments you presented.
>
>Just recently in alt.bible your line of reasoning was utterly destroyed
>and rendered inept with the proper hermeneutics of scripture and by the
>writing of a historical church Bishop.
>
>I suggest you do a dejanews search.
>
Butch
<jte...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>Just recently in alt.bible your line of reasoning was utterly destroyed
>and rendered inept with the proper hermeneutics of scripture and by the
>writing of a historical church Bishop.
Do not say the man's presentation was "utterly destroyed" unless you
can produce the presentation. You are merely a blow hard with the
above. <G>
Hansss
I see you had no response to the fact that this tidbit from Paul is
contradicted TWICE in the bible...
Genesis 6:9 "Noah was a RIGHTEOUS man"
2 Peter 2:7-8 "and if he rescued RIGHTEOUS Lot..."
The latter quote is especially surprising. Lot was the guy who encouraged the
Sodomites to rape his daughters and then later slept with them both himself,
creating two incest babies.
Bro. Frank, are you sure that Paul is a credible source with which to bash
gays?
Hansss
>hetero.
Paul opposed lust, but he didn't condemn those who gave into it. Remember he
taught that all should be single, but if you couldn't control your lusts, you
should marry.
Likewise, Jesus is recorded as offering the single/monk lifestyle as the
"higher road".
Biblicists are forced to ignore this. They see their heterosex as something
holy even as they condemn all manner of homosex. They lack biblical support of
course...
Hansss
>kingdom of God"
The bible dosn't say "gays". We all know this. What the KJV called
"effeminates" comes from the Greek "malakoi" (="soft"). Ponder the following
renderings:
TYN 1526 weaklinges (borrowed from Luther's 1522 version and repeat in
the following English versions -> COV-1535, MAT-1537, TGB-1539, BIS-1568)
GEN 1560 wantons
RHD 1582 effeminat (later odpted by the KJV)
DBY 1884 those who make women of themselves
MOF 1913 catamites (= "boy prostitutes")
NAB 1941 sodomites
RSV 1946 sexual perverts
NEB 1961 guilty of homosexual perversion
NIV 1973 male prostitutes
NKJV 1979 homosexuals
NCV 1987 male prostitutes
NRS 1989 male prostitutes
CEV 1995 pervert
NLT 1996 male prostitutes
As you see, most modern versions are centering on "male prostitutes" as the
proper rendering, NOT "homosexuals" This is not a new idea. Moffatt's 1913
version pointed towards prostitutes and even the 1582 Rheims-Douai version
which led to the KJV rendering "effeminate" has its roots in male cult
prostitution.
It begins with the old testament. 4 passages in Kings talk about "temple
prostitutes" (see 1 Kings 14:24). This comes from the Hebrew "Kadesh(im)"
meaning "holy one(s)." The holy men of other cultures included ritual sex in
their temple worship. It is telling that older English versions translate
"kadeshim" as "Sodomites." Newer versions correctly identify them as cult
prostitutes and have abandoned the anti-gay bias. Now, one of the earliest
Christian tranlsations of the bible was into Latin. The Vulgate called the
Kadeshim "effeminati." The Rheims-Douai transposed this into English as
"effeminate" and even translated Paul's Malakoi (1 Cor 6:9) as "effeminate."
So it it not a new idea that Paul was condemning male prostitutes and NOT
homosexuals. Their is lexical evidence of this throughout Church history.
The "arsenokoitai" from 1 Cor 6:9 (KJV "abuser of themselve with mankind) were
the clients of the "malakoi."
Jesus way for you
>It would be hypocritical to stand upon the two arguably
>anti-gay OT scriptures and yet ignore the many which
>no longer conform to our culture.
Christians DONT ignore the Bible. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow
and His Word endureth forever!
Jesus way for you
>Paul's bigotry as an imperfect human, is no wise the
>judgment of God.
St. Paul is NOT a bigot and it is YOU Miss Williamson who is judging Paul.!
"All scripture is inspired by God" This is not bigotry. This is truth.
Jubilee Temple
Butch wrote:
> Jubilee Temple wrote:
>
> >Just recently in alt.bible your line of reasoning was utterly destroyed
> >and rendered inept with the proper hermeneutics of scripture and by the
> >writing of a historical church Bishop.
> Do not say the man's presentation was "utterly destroyed" unless you
> can produce the presentation. You are merely a blow hard with the
> above. <G>
Your arguments were "utterly destroyed!"
The truth hurts, huh, Butch?
It is time for you to go away for a few weeks and come again as someone
else.
Hansss
>The truth hurts, huh, Butch?
I for one would like to know how arguments in support of gay Christians have
been "utterly destroyed." Rather than engaging in a pissing match or personal
attacks, why not speak to the issues?
Argument #1: 1 Corinthians 6:9 condemns homosexuals.
Response: The terms in question "*malakoi* and *arsenokoitai* will not enter
the kingdon" cannot refer to women. Since lesbians are not addressed, we have
not blanket condemnation of homosexuality.
Furthermore, *malakoi* refers to "male prostitutes", specifically catamites.
This needs little debate as most mainstream translations today recofnize this.
This is not a new idea either. Moffatt's 1913 version specifically says
"catamites" and the pre-KJV Rheims-Douai hearkens back to the OT "effeminati"
or male temple prostitutes.
The *arsenokoitai* were the men who frequented the catamites. Such men today
would be known as child molesters. This is in line with Luthers 1522
translation "knabenschender" and various accepted lexicons (such as Bauer)
which supply "paederast" as a meaning for "arsenokoites".
Speak to the issues, if you can, but don't claim truth by assertion.
Butch
<jte...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>Butch wrote:
>
>
>> Jubilee Temple wrote:
>>
>> >Just recently in alt.bible your line of reasoning was utterly destroyed
>> >and rendered inept with the proper hermeneutics of scripture and by the
>> >writing of a historical church Bishop.
>
>
>> Do not say the man's presentation was "utterly destroyed" unless you
>> can produce the presentation. You are merely a blow hard with the
>> above. <G>
>
>
>Your arguments were "utterly destroyed!"
Martians really do exist too. I saw one. Take my word for it.
>The truth hurts, huh, Butch?
Truth lines up with facts. Where are these facts you speak about?
>It is time for you to go away for a few weeks and come again as someone
>else.
I do have a trip planned, but not this soon. <G>
The Last Church
Books have been taken out of yours and verses changed to fit doctrine.
In short you only have 1/2 a bible filled with half truth. Jesus says
the written word will always be corrupted.......
And God don't care what kind of sex your into.
The Bible And Homosexuality -
Anyone who claims to be a Christian but who at the same time rejects
homosexual people and overtly or covertly works to kill them, is not
and
cannot ever be a true "Christian," but is perhaps someone else who is
following teachings which more resemble some other doctrine, than any
true "Christian" doctrine which can be discerned. Check out the
following books, and check out some of the reviews of the books by
gays
and Christians whose lives have been helped immeasurably by the
application of a little Christian love and charity.
What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality - by Daniel A.
Helminiak,
Ph.D.
A Stranger at the Gate: To Be Gay and Christian in America - by Mel
White
Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality: Gay People in
Western
Europe from the Beginning of the Western Era to the Fourteenth
Century -
by John Boswell
//////////
Read how Christians who persecute and condemn gay children and
adults
and deny them equal rights and acceptance, have obviously betrayed
their
savior Jesus Christ and could very well be traitors to freedom in
America. Such people should pray to Jesus and ask him for guidance,
and
if they think they hear a response to their prayers which tells them to
continue to persecute and condemn gay children and adults, then they
have gotten the wrong message from the wrong source, and they have
been
deceived by the great deceiver.
In the mind of Christ,
Michael
The Last Church
http://personalweb.sierra.net/~mrippie/one.html
--
邢 唷��It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, it is what
comes out. That includes sex.
--
邢 唷��
Hansss
You can't be serious? There are several bits of the Old AND New Testaments
which are almost uniformly ignored by most Christians. Most Christians no
longer observe the Sabbath as commanded in the OT and Paul's teachings on women
are rightfully ignored.
The same yesterday, today and tomorrow? This ignores however the changing
nature of God's moral injunctions regarding sexual relationships. In the
beginning, God commanded Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply." One might
argue that sex was only for purposes of procreation. Initially, the descendants
of Adam had to engage in incest in order to procreate. God later forbade this
practice. Many in the days of the Old Testament were polygamous. This
positively enhanced the ability to procreate. By the time of the writing of the
New Testament, church leaders called for monogamy. Sex was also seen as a duty
between the members of a monogamous couple, though not necessarily for the
purpose of bearing children. (1 Cor 7:3-4) This is the sacred sperm theory.
Accordingly, Hebrew law forbade any practice that wasted the seed of life.
Note that the Old Testament nowhere fobids lesbian behavior.
Hansss
>St. Paul is NOT a bigot
No, but he did embody the misogyny of his time. He forbade women to have
authority over men. What Christian today takes this seriously. Do you?
>"All scripture is inspired by God" This is not bigotry. This is truth.
Second Timothy is one of 13 letters written by the Apostle Paul which later
were adopted into the new Christian Bible. Paul himself was a pious Jew
converted to Christianity after being blinded and hearing the voice of Jesus on
the road to Damascus. Timothy was the son of a Greek man and a Jewish woman. He
was converted to Christianity, some say, by Paul. It is known that Timothy
accompanied Paul on his second and third missionary trips. In this second
letter, Paul reportedly writes:
"All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof,
for correction, and for training in righteousness" II Tim. 3:16 (NIV)
Another rendering in the footnotes of the same translation more closely relates
the original Greek in quoting Paul as writing, "All Scripture is God-breathed
... (New International Version)." Is this "evidence that the very words of the
Bible are God-given"?
The word "scripture" comes from the Greek word graphé meaning "writing." So,
to which writings was Paul refering? Over the years, when Greek speaking Jews
referred to "the writing" it became understood that what was meant were the
Jewish holy scriptures. Paul could not have been referring to the New Testament
here, as this collection of writings as such didn't yet exist.
Paul was merely reiterating his belief that the holy writings of his Jewish
tradition - that which the Christians would later call the Old Testament - had
as its source the Almighty God. This is not a surprising claim coming from a
former zealous Pharisee, a man who referred to himself as a "Jew among Jews."
Nevertheless, his claim that the Old Testament was "inspired by God" is not
"evidence that the very words of the Bible are God-given." Many other books
including the Koran of the Islamic faith delivered by Mohammed make the claim
of verbal inspiration. But because of their mutual inconsistencies, either the
assertion of Paul or that of Mohammed (or perhaps both) cannot be accepted as
fact.
Finally, other common translations of Paul's letter render his statement,
"Every inspired scripture has its use for teaching..." (New English Bible), or
"Every scripture inspired by God is also profitable for teaching..." (New
American Standard Bible). So understood, Paul is stating a simple truism.
Naturally, any writing which is inspired by an all-knowing God is useful and
instructive.
Jubilee Temple
The Last Church wrote:
> I have the 1857 Kj bible and it reads nothing like your new bibles.
> Books have been taken out of yours and verses changed to fit doctrine.
> In short you only have 1/2 a bible filled with half truth.
Ok, I know better, but I will bite.
The bible I use has 66 books. So your 1857 Kj bible has 132 books?
What are the names of those 66 books I DON'T have?
> Jesus says the written word will always be corrupted.......
Did Jesus tell you this in an audible voice or was it "written?"
> And God don't care what kind of sex your into.
Ok Butch, call off your henchmen!
Advocate@blackrose.swinternet.co.uk The Advocate
merlin wrote in message ...
Hansss
>Try Sodomite!
I subscribe to "The Advocate." It's a popular gay magazine in the States.
Probably don't get it in the UK. Doesn't sound like TheAdvocate@blackrose gets
it either.
merlin
> See Merlin, same thing!
what is equal about your attempts to creat a second class of americans by
insulting and damning homosexauls in god's name? what is equal about your
attempt to creat a sex segregated religion? what is equal about
christians killing gays and lesbians and using the homosexauls as
political tools to prove what point jt?
what is your point jt? may it be that you feel superior to merlin because
someone in your church has trained you into believing that homosexaulity
is inferior? the same message your grandparents were trained in church
about blacks in america?
continue your silly ways, they do not reflect jesus or god, and simply
point out the lack of connection you have either one.
in love,
merlin
merlin
> Here we go again with the name calling.
and the below from your earlier post is not name calling?
from your previous post freaky,
"fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
homosexuals, nor Sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, nor extortioners "
THIS IS NOT NAME CALLING? HELLO what planet are you from?
> Don't blame me for what the Bible says!
you are the one using the bible as a weapon, you are the one using a false
bible at that, that is less than fifty years old and pretending it was
sent to you from god.
> The Bible condemns your lifestyle
where does the bible tell you to condemn others? where does jesus
recommend that anyone use the language you do against merlin? does jesus
talk like you as you call people perverts and sodomites? ridiculous.
we all might benefit from taking lessons about what hate does as in the
bible stories. so you approve of the murder of everyone in jerico?
> ans I did NOT cal YOU a pervert, but your
> lifestyle IS PERVERTED!
you can't separate the two, you call yourself jesus and yet do not act
like jesus, which suggests that you have no idea of jesus message of love
to the world.
> Leviticus 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him
> out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying (read on for yoursef, Merlin
> to see what God dictated)
this is all hearsay, did anyone that witnessed this hear god also? have
you ever heard god and why not?
so god died soon ofter this alleged quote and was never heard from again?
you have never met god have you?
> >again, this is not how jesus would speak to anyone.
>
> I just made the observation that you are blind.
you have never met merlin and yet you give merlin such attributes? this
is cult speak and you are using your cult speach against someone that does
not speak your cult language so your insults seem childish and silly.
> Jesus called people fools and
> vipers.
i don't think jesus said this, i think jesus was misquoted by those that
wrote about jesus. and you accept the story as if jesus said it. you
would blieve something negative about jesus to defend your own actions?
this is a real abomination
have you never played the whisper game. where someone starts a phrase and
wispers it into the ear of the person next to them, by the end the message
is no where near the original, so too jesus words has been mangled by
those that survived him and have created the myths of hate like you use
here, in jesus name.
because you have been told that jesus calls people vipers and fools, so
you may call people perverts and sodomites? then you deserve your life
and your false god and your recently written false bible. i guess, when
jesus actually visits you someday, you might bring up your pershant name
calling in jesus name and see what jesus says about all this.
> Have you ever read the New Testament!???
what does this have to do with your lack of a personal relationship with
jesus? you can read your false bible all day and then act as you do as if
jesus does not exist and you can say anything you want to anyone in jesus
name.
you call people names in the name of jesus, does this not even concern you
in the slightest?
> >you are intentionally cruel
>
> I dont think you can handle the truth.
what truth? your truth? you have never met god you have no confirming
experience to help you define truth. everyone comes to a truth unto
themselves and god.
you seem to be saying that you know the truth for everyone? that you have
the truth for everyone? this is the ONE WORLD RELIGION that jesus warned
us about.
> > paul never used the word homosexual you freaky deaky.
>
> Dont you realize how stupid you sound?
look in the mirro freaky, look in the mirro, you are the one calling
people perverts and sodomites.
> It would help since i dont speak other languages.
then learn, you might start to read the bible in its original language.
> >jesus refused the kingdom of god on earth,
>
> Jesus said the kingdom of God was at hand.
jesus refused the temptation to form an earthy kingdom, you are insulting
people in jesus name to create the very ONE WORLD RELIGION that jesus
refused when tempted in the desert.
> It's because I love you and dont want anyone to go to hell that i bother.
its a bother for you? don't do anything out of annoyance to everything
out of LOVE then you might stop calling people names like sodomite and
pervert.
you don't love merlin or you would speak lovingly TO MERLIN. it appears
everyone that reads the bible finds it appropriate to insult people in
jesus name. somehow jesus has become this great insulter in the sky as
you suggests jesus insulted people also, SO BECAUSE JESUS INSULTED PEOPLE
IN THE BIBLE WHICH WAS WRITTEN AFTER JESUS DIED, IT IS PERFECTLY OK FOR
YOU TO INSULT PEOPLE. go figure.
> I DONT want to have sex with YOU
then stop being a sodomite as you call others sodomite for a sodomite is
someone that insists that everyone have sex with whomever they assign to
assuage god's anger against those that god is mad at for having unapproved
cult sex? you are telling us that god will not be happay until everyone
has sex with whom ever you tell them, that is what a sodomite does, tells
people that god is mad at them unless they have sex with whomever god told
them to tell the offender to have sex with. freaky.
> >you have already called merlin a pervert
>
> This is a LIE
"fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
homosexuals, nor Sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, nor extortioners "
what is the above then? are you calling merlin a liar while lying?
> >jesus never said he was the way
>
> Do you even OWN a bible?
as i have told you, you may be reading a false bible, one that has been
written in the last fifty years to cause many christians to loose their
way and help people forget jesus and call everyone they don't understand
silly names like sodomite and pervert. jesus message of love seems
forgotten in this new bible as everyone that reads your new false bible
uses insults to convert others and not the love jesus life represents.
> Jesus saith unto him, I am the way
> John 14:6
jesus was already dead when this misquote was written, is is a misquote,
the person that rewrote this phrase while translating it did not
understand jesus and did not understand the concept of the iam that jesus
was speaking about, just as you have confused jesus with someone that
finds calling people perverts and sodomites is acceptable.
> >freaky
>
> Back to name calling?
so your calling people perverts and sodomites does not count?
you want to be called jesus as your nickname suggest -- you might first
want to act like jesus.
in love,
merlin
Jesus way for you
>dear freaky,
Still name calling, Merlin?
>> Here we go again with the name calling.
>and the below from your earlier post is not name calling?
>"fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
>homosexuals, nor Sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
>revilers, nor extortioners "
Its called "quoting the Bible"
>THIS IS NOT NAME CALLING? HELLO what planet are you from?
Its from the BIBLE. Get a GRIP, Merlin.
>> Don't blame me for what the Bible says!
>you are the one using the bible as a weapon, you are the one using a false
>bible at that, that is less than fifty years old and pretending it was
>sent to you from god.
Pick whatever version you like. They all condemn the perversion of
homosexuality.
>> The Bible condemns your lifestyle
>where does the bible tell you to condemn others?
The bible condemns. I have no need to.
>where does jesus recommend that anyone
>use the language you do against merlin?
Your starting to rant like a child.
>does jesus talk like you
YES! I quoted the verses that showed this.
>> Leviticus 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him
>> out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying (read on for yoursef,
>>Merlin to see what God dictated)
>this is all hearsay, did anyone that witnessed this hear god also? have
>you ever heard god and why not?
I see you have to change your tune now Merlin! Didnt know the Bible as good as
you THOUGHT you did!
>your insults seem childish and silly.
You are the QUEEN of childish and silly insults, Merlin.
>> Jesus called people fools and vipers.
>i don't think jesus said this
Is that the best you can do when i show how wrong you are? You are so full of
it. Why even bother discussing the Bible when you pick and choose what you
want to believe.
>> > paul never used the word homosexual you freaky deaky.
>>
>> Dont you realize how stupid you sound?
>look in the mirro freaky, look in the mirro, you are the one calling
>people perverts and sodomites.
"perverts" is what older Bibles say! HA! hoisted by your pitard, Merlin. I
quoted where the bible said "homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of God."
Older translations WHICH YOU PREFER speak of "perverts"
>> >you have already called merlin a pervert
>> This is a LIE
>"fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
>homosexuals, nor Sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
>revilers, nor extortioners "
SEE! YOUR LIE IS EXPOSED! Where did >I< say "pervert?"
>> >freaky
>>
>> Back to name calling?
>
>so your calling people perverts and sodomites does not count?
Well see if you have the guts to admit your mistake now!
Jesus way for you
>show us the word HOMOSEXUAL in the EARLY
>WORKS.
What early works? Paul wrote about homosexuals about 2000 years ago. Is that
early enough for you?
>then there is no one true bible is there? they are
>all different and created for different political
>factions. and jesus did not write one word of it.
You obviously don't care what Jesus said.
merlin
jesus or speak as jesus might, besides you are not jesus, shall we call
you revmark enstead?
dear revmark2,
> Still name calling, Merlin?
what is your name? since you refuse to give a name we shall give you one,
revmark2.
> Its called "quoting the Bible"
from your false bible you mean? the one written in the last 50 years?
> Its from the BIBLE. Get a GRIP, Merlin.
it may be in your false bible, it does not mean that jesus or god call
people names, it suggests that those that wrote the bible did so and used
language you find acceptable without asking god or jesus what they would
find acceptable.
> Pick whatever version you like. They all condemn the perversion of
> homosexuality.
again you call merlin a homosexual pervert, will this abomination of name
calling ever end? when will you learn that god did not send you to earth
to call people perverts no matter what your religious literature is
telling you.
> The bible condemns. I have no need to.
you have many needs, you have many desires and one of them is to creat
this one world heterosexual religion that does not exist.
> >where does jesus recommend that anyone
> >use the language you do against merlin?
>
> Your starting to rant like a child.
merlin started it? you were calling people sodomites and perverts before
you met merlin. you also previous blamed jesus for your name calling as
you said jesus called people names as reported in the bible.
> >does jesus talk like you
>
> YES! I quoted the verses that showed this.
from your false bible of course. you are reading literature that has been
specially prepared for you and is not part of the tradition called the
bible. this literature was created that you may judge others and think
nothing of it.
> >this is all hearsay, did anyone that witnessed this hear god also? have
> >you ever heard god and why not?
>
> I see you have to change your tune now Merlin! Didnt know the Bible as
good as
> you THOUGHT you did!
you still refuse to answer the question? when have you ever spoken to god
and whom do you know who has spoken to god or jesus?
> You are the QUEEN of childish and silly insults, Merlin.
freaky honey you are still are calling people names have you not noticed?
it is not difficult to call a homosexaul a queen. that goes with the
territory, what you do not realize is we are all royalty, jesus was a
prince of the house of david.
> Is that the best you can do when i show how wrong you are?
by quoting a book you show merlin merlin is wrong? by quoting a book you
become right? you are not even being logical.
> You are so full of
> it.
full of what? you have called merlina pervert, sodomite and a queen.
what is merlin full of now? you seem to have so many answers to non
esential questions.
> Why even bother discussing the Bible when you pick and choose what you
> want to believe.
you are talking about yourself.
when jesus says to love all as we love ourselves and then you insult
people what does that suggest. when jesus said the least you do to one of
my breathren you do onto me also -- and then you use name calling -- that
makes jesus a sodomite, pervert queen, since those are words you chose to
refer to someone so you are refering to jesus.
you even are trying to get all of us to call you jesus for christ sake and
yet you do not act as a christ or a god or jesus.
> "perverts" is what older Bibles say! HA!
it seems everyone that reads your false bible uses name calling on regular
bases. does it not bother you that your sacred texts is so mean spirited
and cruel as to call people perverts to begin with? does not the personal
violence and name calling in the bible give you any pause? does not the
seemingly god approved murders in the bible make you want to find out who
these blood thirtsy guys were that wrote the bible?
> hoisted by your pitard,
is that not the captain of the enterprise?
> Merlin.
that is one name you can call merlin correctly lol.
> I
> quoted where the bible
this is not a true bible, it is not a bible that was written 1500 years
ago, it is a book that was written less than 50 years ago, you can call it
anything you like, it is not the holy bible you are quoting from.
> said "homosexuals
honey your false bible uses this contemporary slang the REAL BIBLE does not.
> will not enter the kingdom of God."
you honestly think that your language and behavior on christnet is going
to get you anywhere, especially since you now say that jesus is a name
caller as you are? who want to learn from name callers?
> Older translations WHICH YOU PREFER speak of "perverts"
honey say anything you want. defend this awful language as often as you
wish, it is not from god, it is obviously written by mean spirited people
that do not love god and want people to think god is evil as you are
repesenting god in your posts.
> SEE! YOUR LIE IS EXPOSED! Where did >I< say "pervert?"
hide behing your logic you have also called jesus a name caller, to in
peace and find jesus and talk to jesus about your problem. you become
everyone problem when you insult people with names and then claim not to
have.
> Well see if you have the guts to admit your mistake now!
again, what makes you right? what makes others wrong. sincer you claim
merlin is mistaken then may be jesus is too?
in love,
merlin
Hansss
>dear freaky, please give us a name we may callyou,
>you do not act like jesus or speak as jesus might, besides
>you are not jesus, shall we call you revmark enstead?
This thread sure devolved into a schoolyard fight rather quickly. I see that
Merlin has abandoned his previous Gandhian behavior and is now is full flame
mode. Previously he said.
>why do you even talk to that guy?
>why do you bother with that guy, it is trying to talk jerry
>falwell down from all the money he makes off of the anti gay
>and lesbian tapes he sells. speaking the language of hate,
>of those that persecute you, is an odd way of helping
>anyone see the light of their negative agression.
>your mind is being held captive by those you protest
>against, as there appears no difference between the two.
From: mer...@tuna.net (merlin)
Date: Mon, 26 July 1999 01:43 PM EDT
>again you call merlin a homosexual pervert, will this
>abomination of name calling ever end?
Technically, he didn't call you a pervert. He called homosexuality a
perversion. Just a suggestion, but why not go after what he really said, rather
than moaning at the the straw men you construct yourself.
Jesusway said: "They all condemn the perversion of homosexuality" meaning all
bible translations. Tell us which ones, JW.
>merlin started it? you were calling people sodomites and
>perverts before you met merlin.
Ummm, he didn't say you started it. He said you started to rant (which appears
to be the case). And technically, he didn't call anyone a pervert. Not that i
saw, anyway.
Jesusway, let's stop the bickering and get down to the bible, OK? What
translation do you ususally read?
merlin
> This thread sure devolved into a schoolyard fight rather quickly.
you must be new to christnet.
> I see that
> Merlin has abandoned his previous Gandhian behavior and is now is full flame
> mode. Previously he said.
that may appear to be the case to you. each person requires a different
approach and unique approach.
> Technically, he didn't call you a pervert.
technically homosexauls are not perverts. technically no one needs to
call anyone pervert in jesus name using jesus name as their own name.
> He called homosexuality a
> perversion.
and that is ok with you? this is the old bate and switch, hate the crime
and love the criminal that does not work either. there is so much
negative press about homosexauls that is being invented by christians that
the fact that you do not disavow this statement is beyond me. this is the
logic that is getting homosexuals murdered in america.
> Just a suggestion, but why not go after what he really said, rather
> than moaning at the the straw men you construct yourself.
a suggestion, why do you find such an example more acceptable than a
direct insult. when anyone calls homosexaulity a perversion while
speaking to a homosexual, that person is calling a homosexaul a pervert.
no one requires your permission to understand an insult when thrown like a
rock from a christian.
> Jesusway said:
you mean freaky?
> "They all condemn the perversion of homosexuality" meaning all
> bible translations. Tell us which ones, JW.
does that really matter? does all this come down to what someone said a
couple of thousand years ago and wrote in a book? it does not matter that
jesus is alive today and cannot come to those that choose hate and hate
speach over love and respect for all.
you guys are substituting a direct relationship with jesus for research in
a book. find the real jesus and the book will become a great guide to a
better life, read the bible without jesus and it becomes the weapon to
hurt others as it is being used in this case.
> >merlin started it? you were calling people sodomites and
> >perverts before you met merlin.
>
> Ummm, he didn't say you started it.
honey it does not matter, the insult and the put down was there and it is
a social device i have experienced much of my life, when we talk of
generalities we actually mean real people. this is a deliberate attempt
to denegrade people, and is an insult to individuals. your pretense as
even handedness is too much too late.
> He said you started to rant (which appears
> to be the case).
refresh your memory, who called which group a perversion once again?
honey, homosexauls don't need to sit on our hands until christians kill us
drive us from their communities and not allow us to work. homosexauls
don't need topretend that christians are our friends until they start
hitting us, we all need to pay attention to the message of hate that is so
very prevelant on christnet against homosexauls.
> And technically, he didn't call anyone a pervert. Not that i
> saw, anyway.
technically homosexauls are not perverts, tho this guy suggests that they are.
> Jesusway, let's stop the bickering and get down to the bible, OK? What
> translation do you ususally read?
it is sad that you have forgotten about jesus and only want to talk about
the bible.
when you leave jesus and his love out of your equation we get the very
sided discussions that puts down those being attacked as perverts. where
will it get any christian to continue this form of insult whether directed
at an individual or at a whole group of race of people. in the past such
talk of african americans created the segregation we all still feel the
effects of. where does this classification of large groups of people as
perverts end? i can tell you it ends in segregation and bashing. it ends
with people being pulled behind trucks and smashed in the head and beaten
to a pulp and left to die on a cross as matthew shepard was.
in love,
merlin
Jesus way for you
>Ponder the following renderings:
>RHD 1582 effeminat
>NAB 1941 sodomites
>RSV 1946 sexual perverts
My point exactly! Effeminate, sodomites, sexual perverts, homosexuals will NOT
ingerit the kingdom of God.
>The "arsenokoitai" from 1 Cor 6:9 (KJV "abuser of themselve with mankind) were
the clients of the "malakoi."
What about 1 Timothy 1:9-10?
Jesus way for you
>dear freaky, please give us a name we may callyou
My name is Jack. What will you want next, my phone number? Don't bother. I have
a girlfriend! I doubt you'll stop your childish namecalling. It not within
your nature to be civil.
>what is your name?
What is your name? (Or were your parents King Arthur fans?)
>from your false bible you mean? the one written in the last
>50 years?
Fine. What Bible do you accept as authoritative.
>it may be in your false bible, it does not mean that jesus
>or god call people names
I see. You know this because Jesus told you so?
>again you call merlin a homosexual pervert
Again you LIE.
>> Your starting to rant like a child.
>merlin started it? you were calling people sodomites and
>perverts before you met merlin.
I wish you would read more carefully. I didn't say you "started it". I said
your starting to rant. (And your continuing to rant)
>> YES! I quoted the verses that showed this.
>from your false bible of course. you are reading literature
>that has been specially prepared for you and is not part of
>the tradition called the bible.
Whatever. Let me know when they publish the Merlin bible.
>by quoting a book you show merlin merlin is wrong?
By quoting the HOLY BIBLE!
>you have called merlina pervert,
LIE!
>honey
is this some sort of gay pick up line? I told you already I'm taken.
>you claim merlin is mistaken then may be jesus is too?
Great, now you're knocking Jesus Christ. This is typical of the regenerate
mind. 2 Timothy 3:1 says "this know also, that in the last days perilous times
shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters,
proud, BLASPHEMERS"
Hansss
>dear hanss,
>you must be new to christnet.
No, you flamed me a few months ago too.
>each person requires a different approach and unique approach.
Your approach to JesusWay is wonderful :-p
>> Technically, he didn't call you a pervert.
>technically homosexauls are not perverts. technically
>no one needs to call anyone pervert in jesus name
>using jesus name as their own name.
When you quit playing the martyr and realize he didn't call YOU a pervert, then
maybe you'll be ready for a rational discussion.
>> He called homosexuality a perversion.
>and that is ok with you?
What do you think? JesusWay is misguided, but i don't need to get into a
pissing match with him.
>the fact that you do not disavow this statement is beyond me.
Again, i think you've got your facts mixed up (Like when you accused me of
"racial slurs".)
>> Jesusway said:
>you mean freaky?
>> "They all condemn the perversion of homosexuality"
>>meaning all bible translations. Tell us which ones, JW.
>does that really matter? does all this come down to
>what someone said a couple of thousand years ago
>and wrote in a book?
This thread began as a discussion on the bible and homosexuality. If you don't
like it, you don't have to lurk. But i assume you'll stick around waiting for
the next post from JesusWay and then whine how you are being attacked. True
martyr syndrome.
>you guys are substituting a direct relationship with
>jesus for research in a book.
Thanks for anayzing my walk with Christ, Dr. Merlin.
>> >merlin started it? you were calling people sodomites
>> >and perverts before you met merlin.
>> Ummm, he didn't say you started it.
>honey it does not matter
Yes, sweety. I see the truth doesn't matter to you. :-p
>it is sad that you have forgotten about jesus and only want to talk about
>the bible.
>when you leave jesus and his love out of your equation we get the very
>sided discussions that puts down those being attacked as perverts. where
>will it get any christian to continue this form of insult whether directed
>at an individual or at a whole group of race of people. in the past such
>talk of african BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!!!!
Wasted enough time. Bye Merlin. Wallow in your self pity. You can have the last
word. I'm moving on.
Hansss
>>Ponder the following renderings:
>>RHD 1582 effeminat
>>NAB 1941 sodomites
>>RSV 1946 sexual perverts
>>NKJV 1979 homosexuals
>My point exactly! Effeminate, sodomites, sexual perverts,
>homosexuals will NOT ingerit the kingdom of God.
But WHICH is the correct rendering of what Paul wrote ("malakoi")?
>>The "arsenokoitai" from 1 Cor 6:9 were the clients
>of the "malakoi."
>What about 1 Timothy 1:9-10?
Paul uses the same term ("arsenokoitais") in 1 Tim 1. He apparantly made the
word up.
Hansss
>>dear freaky, please give us a name we may callyou
>My name is Jack.
Jack, nevermind him. You seem to feel the bible condemns gays. What
specifically makes you think this. Does it matter what version of the bible one
reads?
>>you claim merlin is mistaken then may be jesus is too?
>Great, now you're knocking Jesus Christ.
Be happy to chat bible with ya. No need to go the way of Merlin. He's probably
smarting from a lot of anti-gay harassment. Currently he's unable to engage in
a rational debate. Let's stick to scripture, Jack. ok?
merlin
> My name is Jack.
that makes it a little easier.
> What will you want next, my phone number? Don't bother.
no and do not need to now your gender either as neither is important in
this discussion.
> I have
> a girlfriend!
so you are a lesbian?
> I doubt you'll stop your childish namecalling. It not within
> your nature to be civil.
then stop repeating slogans that call people PERVERSIONS and calls
specific people SODOMITES. these names you use are about as childish as
you can get.
> What is your name? (Or were your parents King Arthur fans?)
je m'appel MERLIN. merlin the second actually.
> Fine. What Bible do you accept as authoritative.
merlin places no earthly religious authority over anyone.
> I see. You know this because Jesus told you so?
you told merlin your bible was false when you used words from your bible
that are not even 50 years old. the word homosexaul is about that old and
as you use it in your sacred text, that text cannot be any older than the
words you use.
> >again you call merlin a homosexual pervert
>
> Again you LIE.
then who is the PERVERT in your mind, who is the SODOMITE in your mind?
you have used both words.
> I wish you would read more carefully.
merlin wishes you would stop ordering merlin around.
> I didn't say you "started it".
nor did merlin accuse you of starting it -- what ever it is.
> I said
> your starting to rant. (And your continuing to rant)
and what does this mean? what kind of insult is this after the other
insults you have heaped at homosexuals in your posts? how does one
respond to someone that is so rude as to say such and refuses to
acknowledge the love of jesus for all?
> Whatever. Let me know when they publish the Merlin bible.
merlin has refused the temptation thank you. you have not it appears in
that you will continue to promote your interpretation of your bible as the
only way to read your bible -- that is the same as if you claim to have
written it, for in your control over the concepts in the bible you control
the bible, at least in your mind.
> >by quoting a book you show merlin merlin is wrong?
>
> By quoting the HOLY BIBLE!
any book when used as a weapon as you are doing. you throw your
interpretation around like you are king james and have the only way to
understand the bible. get a real relationship with jesus and you find
jesus is not interested in what merlin is to you rather what you represent
to merlin and the rest of us using jesus name.
jesus when he comes to each of us, is concerned with us individually and
not what our neighbors are doing in their bedrooms. remember that the
rock throwers were the ones jesus called onto to stop their judgemental
ways, and let the woman go her way.
> >you have called merlina pervert,
>
> LIE!
when you call all homosexuals a perversion you ARE calling merlin a
pervert. you are playing word games. these insults are real to
individual people. these insults can get people hurt in certain
communities in america.
> >honey
>
> is this some sort of gay pick up line? I told you already I'm taken.
yes, you have a girlfriend and you cannot prove your gender on christnet
can you?
> >you claim merlin is mistaken then may be jesus is too?
>
> Great, now you're knocking Jesus Christ.
you are knocking jesus. everything you do in jesus name you are doing to
jesus, every time you call someone a perversion or a sodomite you are
calling jesus such a perversion or a sodomite. everytime you try to
denegrade anyone using the bible you are denegrading jesus. for the least
you do to these jesus brothers and sisters you are doing to jesus.
> This is typical of the regenerate
> mind.
so jesus must have regenerate mind to you? this is the logic of the
sanhedren that blamed jesus for being jesus then asked the romans to
execute jesus for the sin of jesus being jesus. jesus was executed by the
state as a regenerate.
> 2 Timothy 3:1 says "this know also,
who says they know? who is being quoted?
> that in the last days perilous times
> shall come.
ah the old last days petard. you are tearing the world down as you attack
homosexuals. you are causing the very professy that you enjoy repeating
here.
> For men shall be lovers of their own selves,
whom do you love? you have yet to tell us. you have yet to even claim to
have tried jesus experiement to love all as jesus loves you. you have yet
to sample for us any of jesus message. you may be quoting your bible, you
have yet to quote jesus. you have found passages in your book that put
peoples down and now threatens us with the end of the world. is there no
good message of the gospel of jesus christ in your scriptures?
maybe your world should end. maybe you are corrupting jesus message of
love and that should be stopped.
> covetous, boasters,
> proud, BLASPHEMERS"
again why do you read this stuff and repeat it? why do you call people
such names and enjoy it? you are targeting others ..... with your
problems with god and the world around you. all i can tell you is real
people are being murdered by christians because of these scriptures. and
have been for centuries, as we see the attacks on american indian culture,
africans forced into slavery in america, and segregation being practiced
today in most churches and forced religious insults by christians on
homosexauls continually as your post show these things are still
happening.
look deeper into the eyes of your chosen enemies, you will find real
people with ordinary lives trying to make a living. not sodomites,
blasphermers and covetous people. you will find people that are stuggling
as you are to make a living and come to grips with eternity.
where have you been for the first half of eternity that you know what is
going to happen even tommorrow.
in love,
merlin
merlin
No need to go the way of Merlin. He's probably
> smarting from a lot of anti-gay harassment. Currently he's unable to engage in
> a rational debate. Let's stick to scripture, Jack. ok?
yes, forget jesus message of love, and gang up together and read everyone
else in a bad light.
keep up this modern example of jesus message to belittle others in jesus
name and then not following jesus life and only read a book.
in love,
merlin
Jesus way for you
>Jack, nevermind him.
He keeps repeating the same lie. Who knows maybe he secretly is all those
things he claims I said he was. His guilty conscience is getting the better of
him. And the silly way he refers to himself in the third person. "Merlin is
this, Merlin thinks that." Just like a six year old. And he wont even argue
scripture, and THEN he insinuates that Jesus Christ was mistken. I give up on
him.
>You seem to feel the bible condemns gays. What
>specifically makes you think this.
Leviticus 18:20 is clear enough. It calls it an abomination.
>Does it matter what version of the bible one
>reads?
I dont think so. "Abomination" is pretty standard. And if you commit
abominations, you cant be right with God.
>No need to go the way of Merlin. He's probably
>smarting from a lot of anti-gay harassment.
I WASNT harassing him. He lied when he said I called him a pervert. What do you
think he is hiding. I am tired of his name calling. He has been kill-filed.
>Currently he's unable to engage in
>a rational debate. Let's stick to scripture, Jack. ok?
How can you call yourself a Christian when theirs Leviticus? I am not judging.
I really want to know.
Hansss
Just forget him. He's trying to taunt me now too. Who cares?
>And the silly way he refers to himself in the third
>person. "Merlin is this, Merlin thinks that."
Ignore him, and he'll take his ball and go elsewhere.
>Leviticus 18:20 is clear enough. It calls it an abomination.
Many are quick to cite Leviticus when condemning homosexuality. "A man shall
not lie with a man as one does with a woman. It is an abomination." (Lev.
18:22) This condemnation is invalid for the modern day on several counts:
1) Not all that was forbidden or commanded the OT Jew carries the same
injunction for the Christian. The Mosaic laws could also be used to condemn
most Christians. Work is forbidden on the Sabbath (Saturday), as well as
clothing woven of two different fibers (cotton-polyester blends), all pig meat
(bacon), women wearing men's attire (pants) and men who clip their beards. The
Law commands us to have our mildew ridden clothes inspected by a priest. New
mothers would have to be expelled from church an entire month after giving
birth if Christians observed the Law. Are we still under the Law? Why would one
require it still of gays?
2) Some justify extra criticism regarding the supposed sin of homosexuality
given the characterization "abomination." They seem to fail to realize that the
same word in Leviticus relating to homogenital contact ("abomination" - Hebrew:
toevah) is also used to describe many other practices, some of which are rather
innocuous today. The things that were toevah to the Hebrews include: sex with
menstruating women (Lev 18:22), the silver and gold of idols (Deut 7:25), the
rabbit, the pig and shellfish (Deut 14:3-21), psychics (Deut 18:9-12), unfair
weights and measures (Deut 25:13-16), women who wear men's clothes (Deut 22:5),
a man who remarries his divorced wife (Deut 24:4), a women who defends her
husband by crushing his opponent's genitals (Deut 25:11-16), as well as any
person who disobeys the law (Prov 28:9).
3) Some like to single out homosexuality as an especially heinous sin because
of the penalty that was attached to it - death. Yet, capital punishment was
also the OT sentence for manslaughter, kidnap, children who cursed their
parents, people who did any manner of work on Saturdays, adherents to other
religions, contempt of court and refusal to obey one's parents. (Gen 9:6, Ex
21:16, 17, Ex 35:2, Dt 13:9, Dt 17:12, Dt 21:21) Should our civil law reflect
the mores of the ancient Hebrews? It would be hypocritical to stand upon the
two arguably anti-gay OT scriptures and yet ignore the many which no longer
conform to our culture.
4) Despite Jesus' supposed claim that no single law would pass away, most
Christians agree that we are no longer under the Law. A common justification
for ignoring certain laws while demanding the observance of others is made by
the seemingly arbitrary division of the Law into the categories of social,
ritual and moral commandments. Some argue that homosexual practices are still
forbidden as part of the "moral law." This ignores however the changing nature
of God's moral injunctions regarding sexual relationships.
In the beginning, God commanded Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply." One
might argue that sex was only for purposes of procreation. Initially, the
descendants of Adam had to engage in incest in order to procreate. God later
forbade this practice. Many in the days of the Old Testament were polygamous.
This positively enhanced the ability to procreate. By the time of the writing
of the New Testament, church leaders called for monogamy. Sex was also seen as
a duty between the members of a monogamous couple, though not necessarily for
the purpose of bearing children. (1 Cor 7:3-4) This is the sacred sperm
theory. Accordingly, Hebrew law forbade any practice that wasted the seed of
life. Note that the Old Testament nowhere fobids lesbian behavior.
It is also possible that male-male intercoure was seen to emasculate the
passive partner. In Hebrew society, women were seen as property. Could it be
that the law givers wanted to forbid a sexual practice which they believed
lowered the status of the male? It is also known that in Old Testament times,
conquerers would rape the men that they defeated as a further sign of their
dominance.
It is most likely that the Hebrews associated the practice of male
homosexuality with the cultic practices of neigboring peoples. The act of a
male lying with a male was called an "abomination," in Hebrew toevah. Toevah
was often associated with idolatry and specifically with temple prostitution.
"there were also male temple prostitutes in the land. They committed all the
abominations of the nations that the LORD drove out before the people of
Israel." (NRSV 1 Kings 14:24 )
merlin
jack you have said you have kill filed all merlin's future responses to
you. so i will write you this one more time to plead with you to stop
hurting homosexuals in the name of christ. to stop name calling in the
name of christ, and to learn to love in the name of christ.
things you have yet to learn from reading your book.
> He keeps repeating the same lie.
BELOW ARE SOME OF THE QUOTES CULLED FROM YOUR PREVIOUS POSTS ON THIS TOPIC
that remain in the file. YOU TELL ME WHAT YOUR AGENDA IS AND WHY YOU
REFUSE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE WORDS YOU HAVE USED IN YOUR OWN
POSTS.
why do you not see that when you call homosexuality a perversion you
actually are calling homosexuals perverts.
*********
JACK YOUR WORDS FROM PREVIOUS POSTS ON THIS TOPIC:
Where do you think the word SODOMY came from! (jack's reference to sodom)
Isnt it enough that it condemns gays to death. (jack's reference it=bible
AND gay=death)
The Bible says clearly here that gays "WONT inherit the kingdom of God"
(jack a kingdom is an earthly concept, one that jesus refused in the desert)
Good start, Merlin. You can't defend your perverted lifestyle
(jack what is a perverted lifestyle? does one need to be a pervert to
have a perverted lifestyle? this may be the phrase that leads me to
believe you called merlin a pervert, would you please explain this
insult?)
In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 St. Paul mentions specifically
HOMOSEXUALS. "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
homosexuals, nor Sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (NKJV)\
(jack please note your use of the word homosexaul as part of your
scripture, this word is only 50 years old so how old is your scriture?)
"homosexauls" kill them selves when they disobey God's Word.
(jack you are saying that gay=death are you not? and since merlin is a
homosexaul are you are basically threatening merlin's life with a threat
from your god or your cult are you not?)
Don't blame me for what the Bible says!
(jack you are the one posting here, the bible does not independantly post
to christnet and creat the dis ease you are creating by claiming the bible
says something it does not, beside, do you follow are all the rules in the
bible? i bet not)
Pick whatever version you like. They all condemn the perversion of
homosexuality.
(jack as you clam homosexuality to be a perversion what is a homosexual?
is not a homosexaul a pervert when you claim homosexuality a perversion?)
The bible condemns. I have no need to.
(you are posting to christnet, you are the one claiming you have a bible
that says something not all bibles are saying. can we pick and chose
bibles?)
You obviously don't care what Jesus said.
(jack where do you show any caring, you have told merlin it is a bother
for you to minister to homosexuals to begin with)
I doubt you'll stop your childish namecalling. It not within
your nature to be civil.
(jack howmany ways have you used namecalling in the above? how many times
have you called homosexuals names in your posts to christnet?)
Great, now you're knocking Jesus Christ. This is typical of the regenerate
mind. 2 Timothy 3:1 says "this know also, that in the last days perilous times
shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters,
proud, BLASPHEMERS"
(jack again you use name calling and quote the worst hate filled scripture
one can read.)
**************
> Who knows maybe he secretly is all those
> things he claims I said he was.
merlin turns the other cheek.
> His guilty conscience is getting the better of
> him.
another negative assumption on your part.
> And the silly way he refers to himself in the third person. "Merlin is
> this, Merlin thinks that." Just like a six year old.
been there, done that. lol
> And he wont even argue
> scripture,
what scripture from which bible?
> and THEN he insinuates that Jesus Christ was mistken. I give up on
> him.
jesus has not given up on you. jesus will wait as will merlin and the
rest of us for you to come to the light and share love.
> Leviticus 18:20 is clear enough. It calls it an abomination.
what is 'it'? give us the quote you are reading as you are obviously
reading from your own bible.
> I dont think so. "Abomination" is pretty standard. And if you commit
> abominations, you cant be right with God.
go back and read the old testament. do you practice the laws of the old
testatment? do you worship on saturday? do you refuce to eat pork? will
you marry your brothers widow?
> I WASNT harassing him.
harassment is not the best word, INSULTING may be a better word.
> He lied when he said I called him a pervert.
please see the above, when you call homosexaulity a perversion while
speaking to a homosexaul how do you think a homosexual would react? do
you want all homosexuals to lie down and take this type of abuse? PLEASE
EXPLAIN.
> What do you
> think he is hiding.
another negative assumption on your part.
> I am tired of his name calling. He has been kill-filed.
a resource open to all. look at the above, make a list of the names
merlin has called you jack, the only name is 'freaky' for your making
jesus your nick on christnet and then not acting as jesus does. your list
of name calling towards homosexauls seems a whose who.
> >Currently he's unable to engage in
> >a rational debate. Let's stick to scripture, Jack. ok?
HAAS,did you creat this post to afford a brother in christ to personally
attack another brother personally? you may have sinned against your own
god by creating this rift and allowing this negativity to grow in jack.
your fellowship with jack has become a negative experience and goes
against jesus teachings. this is the cultish ways merlin wants to talk
about, this attitude that christians are special and can bend the rules
they inforce on others is what is damaging jesus message of love.
you are promoting this spirit of rife and not attempting to further the
exploration of jesus message of acceptance and love by taking sides and
encouraging jack to insult homosexauls and make non loving remarks towards
merlin.
> How can you call yourself a Christian when theirs Leviticus?
then worship on the sabath when you speak like this to a brother in christ.
> I am not judging.
> I really want to know.
start by trying to love all as jesus taught. your answer comes in jesus
life and message and not the politics of the bible. get acquainted with
jesus and you may find your answer. until then you are being politicized
and encouraged by haas in this pursuit of degrading others, and in finding
this fellowship in degrading merlin you have placed yourselves in the sin
folder you claim god is keeping.
love, love all, forgive all and see where that will get us. until then
stop pretending not to call a homosexual a pervert, when you call
homosexaulity a perversion.
in love,
merlin
merlin
> Just forget him. He's trying to taunt me now too. Who cares?
this is the isolation and cultishness that merlin speaks about continually
on christnet, you sample my complaint perfectly.
this is the vilification of others that many learn to expect from
christians. this is how christians talked about slaves, ignore your
slaves lament they are not human.
this is anti jesus and you and jack may be promoting the anti christ that
wants you to insult and alienate others in the name of the false christ.
where is your love? where is your life in gospel of the good news of
jesus the christ.
in love,
merlin
a.drentje
merlin heeft geschreven in bericht ...
I think love is telling someone who goes astray , that he does.
If you believe homosexuality to be a sin, an abomination, and you don't warn
the one who is practising it, you're not loving that person. Love and truth
go together. Can't have one without the other.
a.d.
merlin
> I think
i think there for i am?
thinking suggests that we have a personal experience that draws us to
certain conclusions that may or may not be exclusive to ourselves -- such
as thinking is a private effort that does not alwaus include the person or
topic being thought about.
> love is telling someone who goes astray , that he does.
which of us is the elected to judge others in such situations? especially
when it is percieved that the criteria used to decide someone has 'gone
astray' by a self appointed judge is not based on reality?
> If
if is not knowing.
> you believe
belief is not knowing. belief is accepting someone elses definition and
making it ones own. belief need not have experience behind it and can
often be substituted for the word faith.
so your phrase might also read, "if you have faith homosexaulity is a
sin......." does this compute to you at all?
> homosexuality to be a sin,
define sin as other than a missed archery mark as the greek word was used
2,000 years ago. also please tell us what jesus is quoted to have said
about putting ones FAITH into homosexuality as a sin?
> an abomination,
how many people use this word in a NORMAL sentence? where does this word
get used at all in modern times? only in churches? why is this word so
popular among church goers? are you saying some people understand
themselves better by believing someone else is an abomination?
> and you don't warn
> the one who is practising it,
we do not practice life we live life. this may be the problem that
christians are having, many christians may have forgotten to live and only
want to practice at being human.
> you're not loving that person.
who is being loving? point to anyone that is being loving besides glenn
on christnet?
who is what others claim them to be? why do you accept the definition for
anyone that has been placed like a scarlet letter over their heads by your
fellow christians? do we continue to use scarlet letters to harm others
who do not obey the laws we have come to accept for ourselves?
who here is running for office that you would want to slander by calling
them a an obomination? sloganeering and using these well orchestrated
phrases that mean something in this cult setting is not satisfying enough
do you think? i mean you are sharing what you think are you not? does
that make what you are sharing true?
> Love and truth
> go together.
that is not what jesus says. jesus says love is a law unto itself. when
people intentionally create division by creating titles like sodomite that
does not mean that it is truth to call someone a sodomite.
as not one person on christnet will say they have met jesus or understand
the liberation of love, this idea of truth being a political tool to label
others as false is not truth.
> Can't have one without the other.
that is your conclusion that is your thought on truth it need not apply to
everyone else unless you make us accept your version of truth.
when we understand jesus message, we will discover what jesus discovered
thru love, and then the truth may be a by product, unless we first
experience the same love that jesus explained that may also lead us to a
personal relationship with the father, what difference does your
definintion o thruth make over another equally unexperienced soul on
earth?
thanks for this thought provoking post.
in love,
merlin
Jesus way for you
>Just forget him. He's trying to taunt me now too. Who cares?
I see he's making fun of your name now. And with his idiotic "sir or madaam"
How do you take it?
>Work is forbidden on the Sabbath (Saturday)
The Christian Sabbath is Sunday, and besides, Jesus said he was the Lord of the
Sabbath.
>Law commands us to have our mildew ridden clothes
>inspected by a priest.
The cultural and ritual laes no longer apply, but God's moral laws (for example
those regulating sex) are eternal.
>Some like to single out homosexuality as an especially
>heinous sin because of the penalty that was attached to
>it - death. Yet, capital punishment was also the OT sentence
>for manslaughter, kidnap, children who cursed their
>parents, people who did any manner of work on Saturdays
Where were people sentenced to death in the OT for working on the Sabbath?
merlin
>
> The Christian Sabbath is Sunday, and besides, Jesus said he was the Lord
of the
> Sabbath.
it was changed because of euros antisemetism.
> The cultural and ritual laes no longer apply, but God's moral laws (for
example
> those regulating sex) are eternal.
then why do people like you use the old these same laws to apply to
homosexaulity? does that not mean you speak with forked tongue?
> Where were people sentenced to death in the OT for working on the Sabbath?
which sabath? the real sabbath or the pagan christian sabath?
the ten commandments say to keep the sabbath holy, why do christians
refuse and have even moved the day to sunday.
in love,
merlin
Hansss
>idiotic "sir or madaam" How do you take it?
Jack, with all do respect, you can continue on the subject of Merlin by
yourself. If you want to discuss with me, stick to the thread. You've
kill-filed him, so you've heard the last of him (and even had the last word).
>The Christian Sabbath is Sunday, and besides, Jesus
>said he was the Lord of the Sabbath.
Even if it were legitimate to move God's Sabbath, Christians do not uphold the
10 Commandments, which forbade ALL work. Observant Jews won't even drive on the
Sabbath.
>Where were people sentenced to death in the OT for
>working on the Sabbath?
Read Numbers 15:32ff.
>The cultural and ritual laes no longer apply, but God's
>moral laws (for example those regulating sex) are eternal.
One of the sex laws required a man to impregnate his death brother's childless
wife. Would you obey this "moral" law?
Dave Haas
jesus...@aol.com says...
> >han...@aol.com.nospam (Hansss) wrote:
>
> >Just forget him. He's trying to taunt me now too. Who cares?
>
> How do you take it?
>
>
> Sabbath.
>
> >inspected by a priest.
>
> those regulating sex) are eternal.
What I want to know is why is an all powerful, omnipotent, supernatural,
invisible thingie that created a billion billion stars and planets
concerned about MY sex life?
D. Haas
>
> >Some like to single out homosexuality as an especially
> >heinous sin because of the penalty that was attached to
> >it - death. Yet, capital punishment was also the OT sentence
> >for manslaughter, kidnap, children who cursed their
> >parents, people who did any manner of work on Saturdays
>
Hansss
>What I want to know is why is an all powerful, omnipotent,
>supernatural, invisible thingie that created a billion billion
>stars and planets concerned about MY sex life?
He's not, so i guess the next question is why are his followers?
merlin
> Jack, with all do respect, you can continue on the subject of Merlin by
> yourself. If you want to discuss with me, stick to the thread. You've
> kill-filed him, so you've heard the last of him (and even had the last word).
yes yes, belittle people creat a topic that belittles people than pretend
you are above these tactics you have used against merlin
jesus had such a campaign against him while dealing with the sanhedren, he
had snipers saying all sort of things against him that then got jesus
killed. this type of snipping by christians as exampled in your previous
posts is what is getting modern homosexauls killed in america.
> >The Christian Sabbath is Sunday, and besides, Jesus
> >said he was the Lord of the Sabbath.
>
> Even if it were legitimate to move God's Sabbath, Christians do not uphold the
> 10 Commandments, which forbade ALL work. Observant Jews won't even drive
on the
> Sabbath.
go ahead and NOT obey the simpliest of rules you make others obey. this
lack of respect for the them commandants the this great respect for bibles
that have been rewritten in the last fifty years if very obvious.
> >Where were people sentenced to death in the OT for
> >working on the Sabbath?
>
> Read Numbers 15:32ff.
>
> >The cultural and ritual laes no longer apply, but God's
> >moral laws (for example those regulating sex) are eternal.
>
> One of the sex laws required a man to impregnate his death brother's childless
> wife. Would you obey this "moral" law?
it is so odd that these sex laws are what everyone is talking about and
notjesus love or jesus attempt to explain a method for reaching a complete
and abiding relationship with god the father.
in love,
merlin
merlin
> What I want to know is why is an all powerful, omnipotent, supernatural,
> invisible thingie that created a billion billion stars and planets
> concerned about MY sex life?
god does not care, it is other men that want to force people to make
sexual decisions that make them happy. christians enjoy meddliing in
other people's lives while not curing their own.
merlin
Jesus way for you
>Jack, with all do respect, you can continue on the
>subject of Merlin by yourself.
Merlin? Who's he? <G> Out of sight, out of mind.
>>Where were people sentenced to death in the OT for
>>working on the Sabbath?
>Read Numbers 15:32ff.
OK, but Jesus allowed us to work on the Sabbath.
>One of the sex laws required a man to impregnate his
>death brother's childless wife. Would you obey this
>"moral" law?
That's sick! NO! Where did you get that idea?
Even if the Law doesn't apply to you, Paul was very clear in the New Testament
that gays would not inherit the Kingdom of God. (And I'm not saying perverts or
sodomites!)
Hansss
At the most, Jesus allowed for doing "good deeds" on the Sabbath. Have you ever
mowed the lawn or shopped on the Sabbath?
>That's sick! NO! Where did you get that idea?
Deut. 25:5
>Even if the Law doesn't apply to you, Paul was very clear
>in the New Testament that gays would not inherit the
>Kingdom of God.
Where specifically? And what version of the bible are you reading?
Jesus way for you
>Have you ever mowed the lawn or shopped on
>the Sabbath?
Sure. Are you saying that is a sin?
>Where specifically? And what version of the bible are you
>reading?
1 Corinthains 6:9 "Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the
greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers
will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV)
Hansss
>>Have you ever mowed the lawn or shopped on
>>the Sabbath?
>Sure. Are you saying that is a sin?
By your own admission, the Sabbath is a moral law. How do you account for
breaking the Sabbath while insisting then Christian men must obey (your
interpretation of) Lev 18:22.
>>Where specifically? And what version of the bible are
>>you reading?
>(NIV) 1 Corinthains 6:9 "Neither... male prostitutes nor
>homosexual offenders will inherit the kingdom of God."
What many translations renders as "effeminate" and some therefore have used to
condemn gay men, the NIV calls "male prostitutes." There is no condemnation
here then of all homosexuals. What in your opinion is a "homosexual offender"?
invisiblebob
of marriage. Jesus desribes marriage in Mark 10 as being
between man and woman.
"But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male
and female.' For this reason a man shall leave his father
and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall
become one flesh, so then they are no longer two, but one
flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not mn
separate."
So if sex outside of marriage is wrong and marraige is
between man and woman, then homosexuallity is wrong by
defualt.
_____
No let's look at some of the verse you quote.
Romans 1:26-27
For this reason God gave them up to the VILE PASSIONS.
For even their women exchanged the natural use for what
is against nature. Likewise also the men, LEAVING the
natural use of the woman, burned in their LUST FOR ONE
ANOTHER, men with men committing what is shameful, and
and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error
which was due.
We can't quote just part of a verse on selection of
scripture and call our interpretation correct. The
scripture clearly labels VILE PASSIONS. Than speaks of
lesbianism. Than men were leaving the natural use of women
and were LUSTing after other men and committed what was
SHAMEFUL. Again always read the whole selection of
scripture.
1 Corinthins 6:9-10
Here i'm gonn cut to the chase because the meaning is what
counts. The NKJV actually says Homosexuals. Strong's Greek
dictionary say that it is word #3120 malakos.
of uncertain affinity;; adj
AV - soft 3, effeminate 1; 4
1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaph. in a bad sense
2a) effeminate
2a1) of a catamite
2a2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
2a3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
2a4) of a male prostitute
So here stongs says that when used metaphorically this word
is negative.
With these things in mind I cannot believe that God approves
of homosexual behaviour (either gay or lesbian).
I love everybody. Don't take this post as an attack. I
leave Judgement upto God. I have no problem co-existing
with homosexual people as long as they keep their practises
away from me. If I'm asked my opinion I tell them. If I
here someone preaching false truth I feel compeled to
expound on the situation. I hope that this post brings
enlightenment to it's readers. I only wish to speak the
truth in love.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Hansss
>outside of marriage.
So where does the bible record Adam and Eve's marriage?
>Jesus desribes marriage in Mark 10 as being
>between man and woman.
Jesus doesn't exlude the possiblility of homosexual unions. But if you're so
insistant on taking Jesus' words on marriage out of context, consider this:
"If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to
marry." Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to
whom it has been given." (Matt 19:10)
Paul even prizes celibacy over marriage, saying "he who marries the virgin does
right, but he who does not marry her does even better." (1 Cor 7:38)
>We can't quote just part of a verse on selection of
>scripture and call our interpretation correct.
Nevertheless, we see that this won't stop you.
>Romans 1:26-27 The scripture clearly labels VILE
>PASSIONS. Than speaks of lesbianism.
You skip the part about these being HETEROsexual idolaters, NOT homosexuals.
>1 Corinthins 6:9-10
>Here i'm gonn cut to the chase because the meaning is what
>counts. The NKJV actually says Homosexuals. Strong's Greek
>dictionary say that it is word #3120 malakos.
>of uncertain affinity;; adj
>AV - soft 3, effeminate 1; 4
>1) soft, soft to the touch
>2) metaph. in a bad sense
>2a) effeminate
>2a1) of a catamite
>2a2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
>2a3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
>2a4) of a male prostitute
So why do you rely on the NKJV perversion when the lexicon you cite won't even
back it up?
>I only wish to speak the truth in love.
In judgmental anonymity...
Jesus way for you
>By your own admission, the Sabbath is a moral law.
>How do you account for breaking the Sabbath while
>insisting then Christian men must obey (your
>interpretation of) Lev 18:22.
The rules for observing the Lord's Day are different than the Jewish Sabbath.
Ha! gotcha!
>What many translations renders as "effeminate" and
>some therefore have used to condemn gay men, the
>NIV calls "male prostitutes." There is no condemnation
>here then of all homosexuals. What in your opinion is a
>"homosexual offender"?
All homosexuals who continue in their sin are offenders like Paul described in
1 Corinthians 6:9.
Jesus way for you
>So where does the bible record Adam and Eve's marriage?
Just because their wedding ins't in the Bible doesnt mean they didnt get
married.
>Jesus doesn't exlude the possiblility of homosexual unions.
>But if you're so insistant on taking Jesus' words on
>marriage out of context, consider this:
>"If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is
>better not to marry." Jesus replied, "Not everyone can
>accept this word, but only those to whom it has been
>given." (Matt 19:10)
>Paul even prizes celibacy over marriage, saying "he
>who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not
>marry her does even better." (1 Cor 7:38)
This is rediculous. The Bible is NOT against holy matrimony.
>>Romans 1:26-27 The scripture clearly labels VILE
>>PASSIONS. Than speaks of lesbianism.
>You skip the part about these being HETEROsexual
>dolaters, NOT homosexuals.
Where do you get THAT WEIRD idea?
>So why do you rely on the NKJV perversion when the
>lexicon you cite won't even back it up?
I diddn't know the NKJV was so clear. It says HOMOSEXUALS will NOT inherit the
kingdom of God. What could more clearer?!!!
merlin
> So if sex outside of marriage is wrong and marraige is
> between man and woman, then homosexuallity is wrong by
> defualt.
your premise starts with man and woman being created in the beginning, in
the myth adam was created first and lived some amount of time by himself
and contained both sexes. so in the beginning was only the adrogeny adam
who then devided into two sexes to creat eve.
so only after adam became adam and eve does any concept of male female sex
become important. now you can say anything you want about sex, but please
leave adam/eve and adam&eve out of it.
in love
merlin
merlin
> The rules for observing the Lord's Day are different than the Jewish Sabbath.
> Ha! gotcha!
'
only because of european antisemetism that changed the day of the week,
but not the meaning of the sabbath. so to pretend the sabbath is now
saturday is to just pretend. all those things now done on saturday are an
abomination to god as they could all just as easily been done on sunday.
in love,
merlin
Hansss
>than the Jewish Sabbath. Ha! gotcha!
Not so fast there, Jack. Didn't you claim earlier that God is the same
yesterday, today, tomorrow blah, blah? How can you go and just change rules
God set out as "eternal."
>All homosexuals who continue in their sin are offenders
>like Paul described in 1 Corinthians 6:9.
Does this include lesbians?
Hansss
>>So where does the bible record Adam and Eve's marriage?
>Just because their wedding ins't in the Bible doesnt
>mean they didnt get married.
I'll grant you that, Jack. Where does the Bible say that pre-marital sex is a
sin, though?
>This is rediculous. The Bible is NOT against holy matrimony.
Marriage isn't a sin, but according to those who quoted Jesus and wrote as
"Paul", celibacy was a higher calling. You seem to be ignoring the bible here.
>>"If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is
>>better not to marry." Jesus replied, "Not everyone can
>>accept this word, but only those to whom it has been
>>given." (Matt 19:10)
>>Paul even prizes celibacy over marriage, saying "he
>>who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not
>>marry her does even better." (1 Cor 7:38)
>>You skip the part about these being HETEROsexual
>>dolaters, NOT homosexuals.
>Where do you get THAT WEIRD idea?
Reread the entire first chapter. First Paul establishes that the people in
question were idolaters. Agreed?
In the context he says they "exchanged" the one true God for idols. Agreed?
Only THEN did they exchange heterosex (what Paul calls the natural use) for
homosex. Agreed?
So until their idolatrous transgression, they were HETEROsexuals like you,
Jack. Agreed?
Advocate@blackrose.swinternet.co.uk The Advocate
Hansss wrote in message <19990803171339...@ng-fw1.aol.com>...
>>From: jesus...@aol.com (Jesus way for you)
>>>han...@aol.com.nospam (Hansss) wrote:
>>>So where does the bible record Adam and Eve's marriage?
>
>>Just because their wedding ins't in the Bible doesnt
>>mean they didnt get married.
>
>I'll grant you that, Jack. Where does the Bible say that pre-marital sex
is a
>sin, though?
>
>>This is rediculous. The Bible is NOT against holy matrimony.
>
>Marriage isn't a sin, but according to those who quoted Jesus and wrote as
>"Paul", celibacy was a higher calling. You seem to be ignoring the bible
here.
"Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be
undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge." Hebs. 13:4
>>>"If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is
>
>>>better not to marry." Jesus replied, "Not everyone can
>>>accept this word, but only those to whom it has been
>>>given." (Matt 19:10)
>>>Paul even prizes celibacy over marriage, saying "he
>>>who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not
>>>marry her does even better." (1 Cor 7:38)
>
>>>You skip the part about these being HETEROsexual
>>>dolaters, NOT homosexuals.
>
>>Where do you get THAT WEIRD idea?
>
>Reread the entire first chapter. First Paul establishes that the people in
>question were idolaters. Agreed?
>
>In the context he says they "exchanged" the one true God for idols. Agreed?
>
>Only THEN did they exchange heterosex (what Paul calls the natural use) for
>homosex. Agreed?
>
>So until their idolatrous transgression, they were HETEROsexuals like you,
>Jack. Agreed?
>
>Hans-Michael
Then they BECAME wicked Sodomites like you, dosed up with God's punishment
for your filthy perversion 'Gay plague'. getting ready to meet your Maker
and answer for your refusal to repent of your evil lifestyle..... how many
others have you infected vie your 'Vile affection' ? Romans 1:26----
Excusing your evil and rebellious heart by pretending God loves "Men with
men working that which is unseemly and recieving in themselves that which is
meet" Which you have certainly have done, holder of the wonderful 'Prize' of
the 'Gay plague' slowly rotting away your insides, its immune system in
'self destruct' mode......
Yet still utterly rebellious and so totally blind, gropping around for a
single shred of credibility denied you as you slowy dribble away to you
final self-induced destiny....
The Advacate
Hansss
>up with God's punishment for your filthy perversion 'Gay
>plague'. getting ready to meet your Maker
Is this what passes for "debate" in England, matie?
>how many others have you infected vie your 'Vile affection'
>the 'Gay plague' slowly rotting away your insides, its
>immune system in 'self destruct' mode
You seem to have this fixation on sexually transmitted diseases. Is there
something you're not telling us?
>The Advacate
Is this a typo, or did you change the spelling after finding out you've named
yourself after a gay magazine? LOL!
Folks, zealots like this can scream and foam at the mout, but that doesn't
change the facts. There is no legitimate biblical condemnation of
homosexuality, despite their pitiful perversion of scripture.
In a nutshell:
1) The Sodom story is not a lesson on sex. Were it such, i doubt we'd be
reading how Lot tried to pimp his own daughters and later would knock them up
(that means he got them preggers!)
2) The Lev 18:22 NEVER applied to women, and it's application to men is only in
the context of temple prostitution.
3) Romans 1 applies more to heterosexual fanatics lile "The Advocate" who have
resorted to idolatry.
4) 1 Cor 6:9 (despite perverted translations) does not refer to gays, but
rather male prostitutes and their clients.
Isn't it pitiful hoe Fundies have managed to take this laughable handful of
passages and create their whole anti-gay theology.
Jesus way for you
>Where does the Bible say that pre-marital sex is a
>sin, though?
What do you rhink fornication is?
>Marriage isn't a sin, but according to those who quoted
>Jesus and wrote as "Paul", celibacy was a higher calling.
Paul doesn't say this is a teaching from God.
>Reread the entire first chapter. First Paul establishes
>that the people in question were idolaters. Agreed?
agreed
>In the context he says they "exchanged" the one true
>God for idols. Agreed?
agreed
>Only THEN did they exchange heterosex (what Paul
>calls the natural use) for homosex. Agreed?
ok
>So until their idolatrous transgression, they were
>HETEROsexuals like you, Jack. Agreed?
hold it right there. since they engage in "homosex" that makes them more like
you!
Jesus way for you
>Then they BECAME wicked Sodomites like you, dosed up with God's punishment
>for your filthy perversion 'Gay plague'. getting ready to meet your Maker
>and answer for your refusal to repent of your evil lifestyle..... how many
>others have you infected vie your 'Vile affection' ? Romans 1:26----
>
>Excusing your evil and rebellious heart by pretending God loves "Men with
>men working that which is unseemly and recieving in themselves that which is
>meet" Which you have certainly have done, holder of the wonderful 'Prize' of
>the 'Gay plague' slowly rotting away your insides, its immune system in
>'self destruct' mode......
>
>Yet still utterly rebellious and so totally blind, gropping around for a
>single shred of credibility denied you as you slowy dribble away to you
>final self-induced destiny....
>
>
>The Advacate
YES! That is my point.
Chris Woodard
The Advocate wrote:
> Hansss wrote in message <19990803171339...@ng-fw1.aol.com>...
> >>From: jesus...@aol.com (Jesus way for you)
> >>>han...@aol.com.nospam (Hansss) wrote:
> >>>So where does the bible record Adam and Eve's marriage?
> >
> >>Just because their wedding ins't in the Bible doesnt
> >>mean they didnt get married.
> >
> >I'll grant you that, Jack. Where does the Bible say that pre-marital sex
> is a
> >sin, though?
> It's called 'fornication'....
>
> >
> >>This is rediculous. The Bible is NOT against holy matrimony.
> >
> >Marriage isn't a sin, but according to those who quoted Jesus and wrote as
> >"Paul", celibacy was a higher calling. You seem to be ignoring the bible
> here.
> "Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be
> undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge." Hebs. 13:4
>
> >>>"If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is
> >
> >>>better not to marry." Jesus replied, "Not everyone can
> >>>accept this word, but only those to whom it has been
> >>>given." (Matt 19:10)
> >>>Paul even prizes celibacy over marriage, saying "he
> >>>who marries the virgin does right, but he who does not
> >>>marry her does even better." (1 Cor 7:38)
> >
> >>>You skip the part about these being HETEROsexual
> >>>dolaters, NOT homosexuals.
> >
> >>Where do you get THAT WEIRD idea?
> >
> >Reread the entire first chapter. First Paul establishes that the people in
> >question were idolaters. Agreed?
> >
> >In the context he says they "exchanged" the one true God for idols. Agreed?
> >
> >Only THEN did they exchange heterosex (what Paul calls the natural use) for
> >homosex. Agreed?
> >
> >So until their idolatrous transgression, they were HETEROsexuals like you,
> >Jack. Agreed?
> >
> >Hans-Michael
>
> Then they BECAME wicked Sodomites like you, dosed up with God's punishment
> for your filthy perversion 'Gay plague'. getting ready to meet your Maker
> and answer for your refusal to repent of your evil lifestyle..... how many
> others have you infected vie your 'Vile affection' ? Romans 1:26----
>
> Excusing your evil and rebellious heart by pretending God loves "Men with
> men working that which is unseemly and recieving in themselves that which is
> meet" Which you have certainly have done, holder of the wonderful 'Prize' of
> the 'Gay plague' slowly rotting away your insides, its immune system in
> 'self destruct' mode......
>
> Yet still utterly rebellious and so totally blind, gropping around for a
> single shred of credibility denied you as you slowy dribble away to you
> final self-induced destiny....
>
And this is obviously someone who judges not, lest he be judged, and who removes
the beam from his own eye ere he picks the dust out of his neighbor's eye. One
wonders about the violence of his reaction, though. Is he reacting against
something that he fears, and does he fear it because it arouses him?
Hansss
>>han...@aol.com.nospam (Hansss) wrote:
>>Where does the Bible say that pre-marital sex is
>>a sin, though?
>What do you rhink fornication is?
adultery/prostitution
>>Marriage isn't a sin, but according to those who
>>quoted Jesus and wrote as "Paul", celibacy was
>>a higher calling.
>Paul doesn't say this is a teaching from God.
So you're admitting that not all of Paul's writings are inspired by God.
>>Only THEN did they exchange heterosex (what Paul
>>calls the natural use) for homosex. Agreed?
>ok
>>So until their idolatrous transgression, they were
>>HETEROsexuals like you, Jack. Agreed?
>hold it right there. since they engage in "homosex"
>that makes them more like you!
But you admit they started out has heterosexuals, before they turned to
idolatry, right?
Hansss
>>Then they BECAME wicked Sodomites like you, dosed
>>up with God's punishment for your filthy perversion 'Gay
>>plague'.
>>the 'Gay plague' slowly rotting away your insides, its
>>immune system in 'self destruct' mode......
>YES! That is my point.
I thought we agreed to ignore the trolls, Jack?
merlin
you will find when god does visit you someday, that god is more interested
in your personal life than that of your neighbors down the block. all
this name calling and finger pointing for god to show god who is a sinner
and who god likes and does not like is silly and meaningless.
find a real relationship with god, and we will all read it in your texts.
find the love jesus talked about and homosexaulity will become as
important to you as it was to jesus, and jesus never spoke about it did
he?
in love,
merlin
Padre
can find no place where Christ said anything directly
also read the statement from the old testament the while chapter and
founf alot said about sacrificind animals Why do we need to follow
the part about Homosexuals and not the part about sacrifices.
Glad you wrote this. may not totally agree with you but made me think
Padre
rfbunting
the rich man says that they have the Law and The Prophets and if
they do not heed them they will not heed anyone rising from the
dead. You ignore the Law and the Prophets and if Jesus had made
a directo comment anout homosexuality, you would ignore it also
or say that it is a textual error. Jesus quoted the OT often
because the the religious leaders were making up their own rules
as they are today. Paul spoke to the issue and you ignore him.
The Bible is very clear on this issue. Of course, it is clear on
many issues and we just do what we want so in that case you are
no different than anyone else, beliver or not.
--
R. F. Bunting, BRE, PPIT
Maverick Ministries - Have Bible Will Preach!
Luke 22:31,32
God Save The South and anyone else that will listen!
STOP CHILD PORN visit
http://www.breakthechain.org/nccip
http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/CountryChurch/index.html
http://www.johnnythebaptist.org
http://www.cowboyforpresident.com
http://www.tracts.com/whichway.html
Also check out this website!
http://www.aliveministries.com
"The small site with the BIG heart for God"
merlin
it is not important to agree 100% it is important that we all experience.
now take the next step while reading what jesus had to say and start
acting as jesus did, no not the healing stuff, just the simple way jesus
loved. for thru this love jesus suggests we too can come to the father.
reread the red lettering and listen with your own voice as you have
researched the previous and see if you do not agree that there is a
promise in jesus teachings that we too might be as jesus was 2,000 years
ago and have that same relationship with the father.
thanks again for your reponse.
in love,
merlin
merlin
> Jesus did not have to say anything directly.
does that tell you something.
> The parable about
> the rich man says that they have the Law and The Prophets and if
> they do not heed them they will not heed anyone rising from the
> dead.
please explain this need to rise from the dead. to whom is it important
to rise from the dead when nobody ever dies?
> You ignore the Law and the Prophets
who doesn't? tell me one christian that follows all the laws of the
prophets? this is an important question, for surely when one law is
deamed by your religion to apply to homosexuals and all the other laws are
ignored, it is a delema to see this selective inforcement.
placing the shoe on the other foot then, exodus members might turn on
christians and demand that all the sacreficial, dietary and social laws in
the old testament be practiced by all christians, as exodus members have
subscribed to other old testatment rules.
> and if
if? then you really don't know do you? sad very sad.
> Jesus had made
> a directo comment anout homosexuality,
you have just said jesus did not.
> you would ignore it also
> or say that it is a textual error.
there are many textual errors in the bible where do you want to start?
this is a copout on your part, jesus said nothing and yet you still boil
and seeth with anger because you think jesus should have or might have and
the bible has not been rewritten yet to include this antihomosexual
platform.
> Jesus quoted the OT often
> because the the religious leaders were making up their own rules
> as they are today.
the follow all the rules yourself. you are critizing others and yet you
have the perfect opportunity to follow all these man made religious laws
and you still don't.
Paul spoke to the issue and you ignore him.
who is paul? and what authority are you giving paul over others? we are
all equals in a quest for the christ, you are setting up a religious
heirarchy and want everyone now to worship paul also as you are trying to
get others to worship jesus the man? when will this end? the bible says
have no gods and yet many christian do worship jesus.
> The Bible is very clear on this issue.
nothing is perfectly clear. this is a political slogan. jesus never said
it, as you do are allowed to pick and chose which ancient man made laws in
the bible so can others.
> Of course, it is clear on
> many issues
agreeing with yourself are we?
> and we just do what we want so in that case you are
> no different than anyone else, beliver or not.
beleiving is faith based. don't ask people to believe show people how to
experience the love ofjesus. have you?
in love,
merlin