Odd Oneness Pentecostal Problems
CalifTalljim
>and that doesn't seem to bother you.
>
>Gutless anon false-christian filth like "CalifTalljim" should not
>be considered as representatives of Oneness Christianity.
>
>See what he has endorsed and supports at
>http://www.impsmail.org/bassett.html
>
>Of course any knowing supporter of Mark Bassett should be ashamed of
>his identity. Great support Bassett has, reprobates and gutless,
>anon net trash. Very authoritative!
>
>Don't judge Oneness Christianity by these anon trash.
>
>Pastor Winter
>
>
Steve wonder boy, shall we judge christianity by calling people filth and scum
and trash? Are they not created in the image of God or are you saying there is
filth in God? All you are on here Winter is a joke, and everyone is laughing at
you.
Acts 2:38 = Repent and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
JIM
Mark Bassett
news:adomfto1bpmcm0ol9...@4ax.com...
> calift...@aol.com (CalifTalljim) spake thusly and wrote:
> Reprobate Jim, your bro Bassett is a blasphemer of the Holy Ghost
> and that doesn't seem to bother you.
How come you are the only one who supposes so, Sonny?
News flash! Withstanding a carnal imposter does not equate to blaspheming
the Holy Ghost.
Mike Bugal
news:mJPK6.87635$4X4.11...@news02.optonline.net...
> News flash! Withstanding a carnal imposter does not equate to blaspheming
> the Holy Ghost.
Why, thank you, Mark! Why don't you pass that on to Jim? :o)
In Christ,
Mike Bugal
Heartland Chapel Ministries
http://www.heartlandchapel.org/
"Point out the cults' doctrinal flaws, out come the claws!"
with thanks to Mike S.
Benjamin C. James
and disgusting lies about anyone, regardless of how we perceive that they
are wrong?
Do I misunderstand the words of Jesus Christ when he says in Matthew
5:43-48????
Matthew 5:43 - Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy
neighbor and hate thine enemy.
44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you,
and persecute you.
45 - That you may be the children of your Father which is heaven: for He
maketh the sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the
just and the unjust.
46 - For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even
the publicans do the same?
47 - And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do
not even the publicans so?
48 - Be ye therefore perfect, even as yoru Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
Mr. Winters, I declare that you are in direct violation of the Word of God
by spouting your poison and spreading your venom throughout this newsgroup.
Jesus message was LOVE!!!!! Love you neighbor, love them that hate you. He
even prayed for the very people that were nailing Him to the cross. Stephen
asked God not to hold it against those that stoned him.
Were you a true Child of God, your attitude would be different. You would
be promoting the exact opposite of your current message. There is no place
in the Kingdom of God for hate and discontent. As a matter of fact, the
wise man of Proverbs has a few choice words to say about people like you.
Proverbs 6:12 - A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward
mouth.
14 - Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he
soweth discord.
15 - Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken
without remedy.
16 - These six things doth the Lord hate; yea, seven are an abomination to
Him:
17 - A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 - An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in
running to mischief,
19 - A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among
the brethren.
These are strong words, Winters, but they are directly from the Word of God.
The Lord hates those that sow discord among the brethren. As for your
arguements against the United Pentecostal Church Int'l, they are absolutely
invalid. How do you determine that you are closer to God and more in tune
to His word than anyone else?
It has been my observations that those ministers who have left the
fellowship of the UPC have simply been looking for an excuse to follow after
their own path. I honestly cannot tell where you are any different.
It seems to me that you grew dissatisfied with UPC because they were not
radical, as you are. It is the ministers such as yoruself, constantly
stooping to calling others liars, evil, reprobates and gutless, Gutless anon
false-christian filth, reprobate spiritual scum, dirt, etc...
In the month that I have been posting to this NG, I have seen but one post
in which you used scripture to establish anything for which you stand. Even
then, it was "Spiritual dirt, Filth, spiritual filth, reprobate spiritual
dirt, and low life false-christian dirt.
It is a sad state of affairs of the soul when a man cannot respond without
attacking. Jesus didn't do it that way. He just figured that if He gave
the Pharisees and Saducees enough rope they would hang themselves. Kind of
like I regard you. People recognize you for the person you are, Winters.
You cannot hide behind the cloak of righteousness and expect anyone to
perceive or believe that you are Christ-Like (Christian). In fact, Jesus
told His disciples in John 13:35 - "By this shall all men know that ye are
my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
Paul said in Rom 13:8 - "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for
he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law."
In 1Thess 4:9 - "But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write
unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another."
John said in 1 John 3:11 - "For this is the message that ye heard from the
beginning, that we should love one another."
And in the very next verse said, 1John 4:7 - "Beloved, let us love one
another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and
knoweth God."
Now, pardon me, but it seems, according to the Word of God, that we unless
we love one another, including our enemies, we cannot know God.
As matter of fact, Jesus said in Matthew 6: 14-15, "For if ye forgive men
their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye
forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your
trespasses."
Now according to this passage, it is my understanding that unless we forgive
those that we believe have done us wrong, God will NOT forgive us. If we
are not forgiven, we cannot go to Heaven.
I have read where very few of these people that you spend all your time and
energy lambasting have ever launched a personal attack on you as you have on
them.
I believe that I have extablished my case according to the Word of God.
You, Winters, need to repent and change your ways. We are to follow in the
example of Jesus Christ. What was his example? Love everyone. Jesus even
loved the religious leaders, but condemned the fact that they preached
traditions of men as doctrines of God. It was their superior, pharasaical
attitude that he hated. I believe that were we living in Jesus' time, you
would be a prime candidate as a counterpart for Caiaphas, refusing to
believe that anyone proclaiming to be God could actually be God. Choosing
instead to mock and make fun, trying to trap Him into admitting that he is
fake and everything He had done was a sham and sideshow. You certainly fit
the profile today.
Winters, you can say what you want about me, but you cannot argue with the
Word of God. I stand by my statements and stand on the Word of God.
Ben James
"Pastor Steve Winter" <steve...@prime.org> wrote in message
news:adomfto1bpmcm0ol9...@4ax.com...
> calift...@aol.com (CalifTalljim) spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >Do you know what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is? Obviously not, because
you
> >are committing that very thing by calling the Holy Spirit counterfeit.
Even in
> >disagreement of a denominational church outside of the pentecostals I
would not
> >be foolish enough to say that the holy ghost "they" have is counterfeit.
You
> >need to grow up and get some wisdom before you commit any more
blasphemys.
>
> Reprobate Jim, your bro Bassett is a blasphemer of the Holy Ghost
> and that doesn't seem to bother you.
>
> Gutless anon false-christian filth like "CalifTalljim" should not
> be considered as representatives of Oneness Christianity.
>
> See what he has endorsed and supports at
> http://www.impsmail.org/bassett.html
>
> Of course any knowing supporter of Mark Bassett should be ashamed of
> his identity. Great support Bassett has, reprobates and gutless,
> anon net trash. Very authoritative!
>
> Don't judge Oneness Christianity by these anon trash.
>
> Pastor Winter
>
> --
> "Winters, you are a blabbering heretic. In a truly godly
> nation you would be executed for publicly promoting your
> heretical doctrines." - Tom Albrecht trinitarian deceiver 2000
> "Copyright infringement my ***" (obscenity deleted) - Brian Boggs cultist
2000
> "lying to mr. winter is just a defense" - Mark Bassett UPC Preacher 1999
> "It isnt a salvation issue..." - Mark Bassett 1999 regarding Biblical
holiness
> "Sorry old man. I never lie, if I, can help it." - Raymond W Knapp 2000
> "...God is Triune in nature..." - Raymond W Knapp 2000
> ",I did get saved in a Southern Baptist Church," - Raymond Knapp 2000
> http://www.onenesschristian.org PreRapture Ministry Apostolic Oneness
Pentecostal
> See reprobates Bassett and Knapp in action at http://www.impsmail.org
Mark Bassett
"Benjamin C. James" <bcj...@icok.net> wrote in message
news:sS3L6.56$9d....@newshog.newsread.com...
> Is this the Spirit of Christ? Are we to spread hateful, malicious rumors
> and disgusting lies about anyone, regardless of how we perceive that they
> are wrong?
Standby for the pronunciation of yet another Oneness member of the "FCS".
Pastor Steve Winter
>Mr. Winters, I declare that you are in direct violation of the Word of God
>by spouting your poison and spreading your venom throughout this newsgroup.
>Jesus message was LOVE!!!!! Love you neighbor, love them that hate you. He
>even prayed for the very people that were nailing Him to the cross. Stephen
>asked God not to hold it against those that stoned him.
Jesus did NOT tolerate deceiving religious filth.
I Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also
suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his
steps:
I Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
I Peter 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he
suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that
judgeth righteously:
Let us also look at a particular situation that shows us the
Lord exhibiting unusual behaviour; and that is, when he encountered
false preachers, false religionists, deceivers.
Matthew 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye
escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye
are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful
outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all
uncleanness.
Looking carefully at verse 27. In our modern language "full of dead
men's bones and all uncleanliness" would roughly translate as the
modern term "scum". That tells me that if the Lord was walking
our streets today and encountered a denominal trinitarian preacher,
that He would call him/her/it "scum", "snake", "hypocrite".
"Love incarnate" didn't coddle false preachers. The Apostle Paul
instructs us should we encounter anyone preaching other than the
original Acts 2:38 message:
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other
gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be
accursed.
(Check out Acts 19, if you have any doubts that Paul adhered to the
Acts 2:38 re-birth of WATER and SPIRIT.)
Would Jesus Christ call you and/or your preacher "scum" ? If he's not
preaching the Acts 2:38 Apostolic holiness message, He sure would!
I hope this helps.
Pastor sTeve Winter
Pastor Steve Winter
Mark Bassett, among his other problems is a spiritual slut and
he likes to lead others into the sewer with him.
We see organizational descent into whoredom, unholiness and
compromise. God does not want His ministers "bearing with" or
otherwise tolerating false preachers like trinitarians.
Did Paul preach tolerance and fellowship towards deceivers?? Nope!
II Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off
occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory,
they may be found even as we.
II Corinthians 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
II Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed
into an angel of light.
II Corinthians 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers
also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall
be according to their works.
II Corinthians 11:16 I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if
otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little.
II Corinthians 11:17 That which I speak, I speak [it] not after the
Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
II Corinthians 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will
glory also.
II Corinthians 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye
[yourselves] are wise.
Let's look back a few verses:
II Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for
I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a
chaste virgin to Christ.
II Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent
beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted
from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Notice that Paul fears for their LOSS OF CHASTITY and CORRUPTION,
that they would end up like the "Mark Bassett"s and other spiritual
filth.
II Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus,
whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye
have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye
might well bear with [him].
Just "bearing with" a trinitarian is defined as the manifestation
of whoredom and corruption (lack of chastity is "unchaste" or
"whorish". One who lacks "fidelity" is an "infidel")
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other
gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be
accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man]
preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him
be accursed.
Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to
please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of
Christ.
II John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine
of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he
hath both the Father and the Son.
II John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine,
receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
II John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil
deeds.
Let us look back and see what would be the symptoms of the HIGH RISK
group for whoredom and infidelity.
2 Cor 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare
ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring
themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves,
are not wise.
They COMMEND themselves this "high risk" group. They MEASURE
THEMSELVES BY THEMSELVES etc . That is how they can defy the
Word of God an license spiritual filth like Mark Bassett.
2 Cor 10:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
2 Cor 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom
the Lord commendeth.
Pastor sTeve Winter
CalifTalljim
>From: Pastor Steve Winter steve...@prime.org
>Date: 5/12/01 1:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8v5rftoq88ssap332...@4ax.com>
>
>"Benjamin C. James" <bcj...@icok.net> spake thusly and wrote:
>
>>Mr. Winters, I declare that you are in direct violation of the Word of God
>>by spouting your poison and spreading your venom throughout this newsgroup.
>>Jesus message was LOVE!!!!! Love you neighbor, love them that hate you. He
>>even prayed for the very people that were nailing Him to the cross. Stephen
>>asked God not to hold it against those that stoned him.
>
>Jesus did NOT tolerate deceiving religious filth.
>
>Steve Winter
I beg to differ, sir. Jesus called Saul from the road to Damascus in Acts 9.
Where was Saul headed? To persecute christians.
Mark Bassett
> "Mark Bassett" <mba...@optonline.net> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >
> >"Benjamin C. James" <bcj...@icok.net> wrote in message
> >news:sS3L6.56$9d....@newshog.newsread.com...
> >> Is this the Spirit of Christ? Are we to spread hateful, malicious
rumors
> >> and disgusting lies about anyone, regardless of how we perceive that
they
> >> are wrong?
> >
> >Standby for the pronunciation of yet another Oneness member of the "FCS".
>
> Mark Bassett, among his other problems is a spiritual slut and
> he likes to lead others into the sewer with him.
I don't even know Benjamin James, and frankly, I have been offended by a
couple of statements he has made. However, it was easy to predict that you
would curse him out and condemn him, like you have with EVERY Apostolic
Christian that has shown up on USENET, BAR NONE, except for the few that are
smart (or wise) enough not to mess with you, knowing that you are the LAST
kind of person that one needs railing at them and throwing mud across the
World. I put up with it because I have to. Others don't and don;t have a
real burden for the use of the internet, and drop out of sight.
Why don;t you go back to church in Durham, and allow God to restore you to a
condition of righteousness and peace, Steve? You are becoming a very, very
old joke.
Mark Bassett
news:20010512220538...@ng-mb1.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Odd Oneness Pentecostal Problems
> >From: Pastor Steve Winter steve...@prime.org
> >Date: 5/12/01 1:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <8v5rftoq88ssap332...@4ax.com>
> >
> >"Benjamin C. James" <bcj...@icok.net> spake thusly and wrote:
> >
> >>Mr. Winters, I declare that you are in direct violation of the Word of
God
> >>by spouting your poison and spreading your venom throughout this
newsgroup.
> >>Jesus message was LOVE!!!!! Love you neighbor, love them that hate you.
He
> >>even prayed for the very people that were nailing Him to the cross.
Stephen
> >>asked God not to hold it against those that stoned him.
> >
> >Jesus did NOT tolerate deceiving religious filth.
> >
>
> >Steve Winter
>
>
>
> I beg to differ, sir. Jesus called Saul from the road to Damascus in Acts
9.
> Where was Saul headed? To persecute christians.
Is there hope for Steve? He is going to harass Christians ... not so much
persecute them. Maybe if he steps up his program he can get a Damascus road
experience.
Pastor Steve Winter
>I beg to differ, sir. Jesus called Saul from the road to Damascus in Acts 9.
>Where was Saul headed? To persecute christians.
>
Ignorant reprobate spiritually whorish, gutless anon scum, Jim;
Paul was not pretending to be Christian.
Pastor Winter
CalifTalljim
>Ignorant reprobate spiritually whorish, gutless anon scum, Jim;
>Paul was not pretending to be Christian.
>
>Pastor Winter
Yes he sure was. He was educated at the university of Tarsus on the Law in both
Greek and Hebrew. Saul was in fact the most scholarly of all the apostles,
having sat under the feet of Gamaliel.
Pastor Steve Winter
>>
>>Ignorant reprobate spiritually whorish, gutless anon scum, Jim;
>>Paul was not pretending to be Christian.
>>
>>Pastor Winter
>
>Yes he sure was. He was educated at the university of Tarsus on the Law in both
>Greek and Hebrew. Saul was in fact the most scholarly of all the apostles,
>having sat under the feet of Gamaliel.
Man you are one ignorant false-christian scum, "anon Jim". You
certainly should be ashamed of your identity.
Typical of the filth that will support reprobate Bassett!
So our little anon net scum trying to play "oneness christian" thinks
that Saul of Tarsus was pretending to be Christian himself as he
persecuted the Christians.
The ignorance of spiritual dirt who will knowingly support reprobate
Bassett is truly astounding. Where does Bassett find these trash?
Gutless anon false-christian filth like "CalifTalljim" should not
be considered as representatives of Oneness Christianity.
See what he has endorsed and supports at
http://www.impsmail.org/bassett.html
Of course a supporter of Mark Bassett should be ashamed of his
identity. Great support Bassett has, reprobates and gutless,
anon net trash. Very authoritative!
Don't judge Oneness Christianity by these anon trash.
Pastor Winter
Mark Bassett
> calift...@aol.com (CalifTalljim) spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >>
> >>Ignorant reprobate spiritually whorish, gutless anon scum, Jim;
> >>Paul was not pretending to be Christian.
> >>
> >>Pastor Winter
> >
> >Yes he sure was. He was educated at the university of Tarsus on the Law
in both
> >Greek and Hebrew. Saul was in fact the most scholarly of all the
apostles,
> >having sat under the feet of Gamaliel.
>
> Man you are one ignorant false-christian scum, "anon Jim". You
> certainly should be ashamed of your identity.
>
> Typical of the filth that will support reprobate Bassett!
>
> So our little anon net scum trying to play "oneness christian" thinks
> that Saul of Tarsus was pretending to be Christian himself as he
> persecuted the Christians.
>
> The ignorance of spiritual dirt who will knowingly support reprobate
> Bassett is truly astounding. Where does Bassett find these trash?
>
> Gutless anon false-christian filth like "CalifTalljim" should not
> be considered as representatives of Oneness Christianity.
I read this comment of Winter's three times. (And you know I hate to waste
time).
I have no idea what he means. I have noticed something odd, however. Winter
and Lohr began to degenerate in rational quality at the same time. That
really IS odd.
I mean WHO has a clue concerning "Paul pretending to be Christian"??
Libertarius
Benjamin C. James
Ben James
"Pastor Steve Winter" <steve...@prime.org> wrote in message
news:936rftgh3ck8qdsu7...@4ax.com...
Pastor Brian
Oneness theology teaches that there is only one God. That God is numerically
singular, and that Jesus Christ is that one God. With Deut.6:4 as their
proclamation, they reject any concept of unity that would change the
numerical one from its strict singular meaning. Oneness theology tries to
explain the Oneness of God at the expense of the threeness. By using this as
their beginning premise they can only come to the conclusion that the three
who are called God, the Father, Son and Spirit can only be singular in
person. Interpreting that God is one as a strict numerical statement of his
person, God becomes something he is not described as in Scripture. With both
the Father and the Son being in the Old and New Testament, Oneness must come
up with explaining the relationship of both the Father and the Son in some
other fashion. While Oneness holds to the affirmation of Jesus being fully
God and fully man, however they reinterpret this as the Father being the
deity in the Son who is strictly the humanity. To be put simply, the Son is
not God, but only the man whom God the Father dwelt in.
David Bernard a Oneness Pentecostal and one of their premier apologists
says, "Modalism is the same as the modern doctrine of Oneness." (the Oneness
of God p.318 ) As we examine history we will see this is not so, today's
modalism is synthesized from diverse views held centuries before.
There are various forms of Modalism but all agree God is strictly one
person. One version is that God was the Father who then became the Son, and
then the spirit in different dispensations.(different periods of time ).
Another version is that there are three manifestations of the one Spirit who
is God. That the one person who is God shares the titles of Father, Son and
Holy Spirit and as Spirit can manifest to be all three. While we agree that
God is an eternal Spirit, the difficulty that arises is how he is that one
Spirit and who is that one. The Oneness view denies that the distinctions
are real, saying that they are only roles God plays for different functions.
Bernard states, "Noetus was Praxeus' teacher in Asia Minor, Praxeus preached
in Rome about 190, and Sabellius preached in Rome about 215.".."Sabellius
relied heavily on Scripture, especially passages such as Ex.20:3, Deut.6:4,
Isa.44:6, Jn.10:38 to prove his position. He said that God revealed himself
as the Father in creation, Son in incarnation, and Holy Ghost in
regeneration and sanctification." Bernard qualifies these ancient men's
statement saying, "some interpret this to mean that he believed these three
manifestations were strictly successive in time. If so, he does not reflect
the beliefs of older Modalism or of modern Oneness." (p.240 The Oneness of
God) The historical facts state otherwise. It is important to note that the
Oneness today differs from Oneness in early Church history, it was
developed. This is equally significant, because this is exactly what they
claim happened to Trinitarian theology. Actually it was these men (Praxeus
and Noetus) who held to the original form of modalism and he has no proof
otherwise. Today there are variations to the original form. Oneness writer
David Bernard says, it is the eternal Spirit who is the Father, and the Son
is the humanity only.
Today there are variations to the original form, Oneness writer David
Bernard says, It is the eternal Spirit who is the Father and the Son is the
humanity only.
The nature of God is crucial for Christianity. The Christian view is what
separates one from the polytheistic interpretations of Hinduism (multiple
Gods) and the strict monotheism of Islam. How does one explain and clarify
the God of the scriptures ? Because one lacks understanding of this subject
does not justify one to revert to a simplistic view to solve the problems of
explaining away the threeness. Oneness groups claim that their belief is
compatible with the essential doctrines of Christianity and that it is the
Trinitarian view that is not. What we need to do is let history tell its
tale and the scripture speak to settle this issue.
If modalism was the teachings of the apostles and those afterwards as
claimed today by the Oneness adherents, then when the Trinitarian concept
arose in the church it would have caused a great controversy. Instead the
very opposite occurred. Those who tried to introduce this NEW doctrine were
clearly modalistic which means the church already was teaching and
practicing something different. The church contended against Modalism, the
concept of one God as a singular person that came in assorted forms and
manifestations in different ages.
We can only concede what has been communicated to us through the Scriptures.
While we may never have a complete comprehension an apprehension of what is
revealed will suffice any seeker of truth. The post apostolic church Fathers
(pre-Nicene, as they are referred to in church history) were the ones who
recognized and preserved what we have today as our sacred Scriptures. They
rejected false letters that were circulating by comparing them with the
revealed word of God. They became trustees guarding over the canon that we
now have as our Scriptures today. These are the same church fathers that
wrote on the triune nature of God, refuting numerous false concepts of his
nature that arose from inside the church. It was understood by following the
Scriptures, they then pronounced it as heresy.
The Trinity doctrine was formulated by necessity from the Scriptures to
answer a series of errors, one of which was Modalism, (Oneness) that sprung
up in the mid second century. Many realized what was at stake. Athenagoras
in 160 AD. Had a grasp on Gods nature, representing the church's belief said
that, "they hold the Father to be God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit,
and declare their union and their distinction in order."(A plea for the
Christians .10.3.)
At that time the church did not have a precise teaching written down on the
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Trinity doctrine is criticized by Oneness
and others, because they claim it was developed and was not fully accepted
until the fourth century at the council of Nicaea. All one has to do is look
at history to find the enlightening truth. The doctrine was not developed,
but the explanation of it. Almost all the theological doctrines have had
some development through the years to explain them in a better fashion. As
assaults were launched and men rose to the challenges to defend and affirm
what the Scriptures say, explanations needed to be clarified. Other such
doctrines that were significant in the development of the Church's history
were the nature of man, doctrines of salvation, church government, the
attributes of God, the inspiration of Scripture, what was part of the canon,
and the afterlife. Many of these issues continue on today and are still
currently being formulated in written fashion to give us a better
understanding.
The church in the beginning was not any different than it is today in its
efforts to understand the Apostles writings. Christological errors were
rising in the 2nd to 3rd centuries under the terms monarchianism (dynamic)
and modalism. Men named Sabellius, Noetus, Callistus, Praxeus rose from
within the church claiming that God was numerically one person, that the
names Father and Son were just different offices of that one person, who is
God. They were over reacting to the paganism in their culture, and wanted to
preserve the monotheism of Christianity. Unfortunately, they went to the
other extreme, and sacrificed the eternality of the two persons that the
Bible also calls God. Other men such as Hippolytus, Irenaeus, Origen,
Tertullian, Athanasius, Novation and many others opposed their view in a
series of debates in public forums and councils. From these gatherings they
put into writing their expression of the nature of the one God (the Father,
Son and Holy Spirit) and how they relate to one another. Christology became
the key to having a clear understanding of who the Son is. What we need to
keep in mind is that these were only men. They were not right on all things,
but their articulation on the nature of God was at times brilliant, and
unsurpassed in explanation even to our day.
The church contended vehemently against the concept of one God as strictly a
singular person who came in different forms and manifestations in different
ages. In searching the scripture they found these so called titles of modes
were existing simultaneously and were personally involved in relating to one
another. From these controversy's came the descriptive terms of
subsistences, hypostases, and personas to describe the persons that make up
the ontological nature, the being called God.
History tells us it was modalism in the late second and early third century
that gave the church the impetus to search the Scriptures to see what the
apostles believed on Gods nature. We find such men as Irenaeus, Hippolytus,
later Athanasius and many others structuring their faith on the nature of
God in unqualified Trinitarian expressions. God would use these expressions
to help the church grow mature and stable. The modalistic concept was always
treated as heresy in the church, as were numerous other distortions of the
nature of God. Epiphanius, who was also a defender of the triune nature of
God states that " they derived their entire heresy from certain Apocryphal
books, especially from the Gospel of the Egyptians" ( Schaff-Herzog
religious encyclopedia).
All this occurred a hundred and thirty years before the council of Nicaea
when a new challenge was from a man named Arius who claimed Christ was a
created being . His challenge was met by a person named Alexander and his
then deacon Athanasius, who proved from scripture that the Son was of the
same substance as the Father, being co-equal.
Some of the statements made by Oneness adherents are very revealing for
example . "The variety and diversity of God's self revelation forces him
(God) to use language that may seem to imply plurality of individuals, but
if such is accepted literally the effect would be a belief in a plurality of
Gods." (Godhead K. Reeves p.51-52) With this logic we would end up saying
Jesus had to be two separate persons a human and divine since according to
them two or three cannot in any sense be one. It is this attitude that is
necessary to be countered by sensible explanations . Without it we can never
move forward to help those involved in understanding the historic Christian
position.
"Pastor Steve Winter" <steve...@prime.org> wrote in message
> Pastor sTeve Winter
Pastor Brian
If we are saved before baptism by faith than baptism cannot convey to us the
Spirit no matter what name is said over a person. If you are saved by
baptism, (by calling on Jesus name) than it was not faith that saved but an
ordinance you had faith in. If it was at your baptism you had called on him
for the first time to save you this would not
Oneness Pentecostals (a specific group of Pentecostals) teach that "speaking
in tongues" must accompany the conversion of all Christians to prove they
have the Spirit. The process to salvation is repentance, faith, baptism in
Jesus name, then comes the waiting for the Acts 2 experience. Either before
or after is obedience to commands and works. The Oneness Pentecostals make
tongues as the proof that one possesses salvation. Many wait for this
evidence to occur and when it does not they look desperately to find
whatever flaw or sin is holding back His Spirit from coming. I can't think
of something more disheartening than to think your not saved because you
haven't had this experience of tongues.
John the Baptist never spoke another tongue yet he was filled with the
spirit from his mothers womb. The book of Acts gives us the normal pattern
for receiving the Holy Spirit. One thing becomes clear as the texts are
looked at carefully, there is no consistent pattern of reception. In order
for something to be normative it needs to be consistent and a common thing
to all, clearly it is not as proposed by the Oneness view.
If we look carefully through the book of Acts There are only three
references to believers speaking in tongues when salvation was given. Acts 2
those in the upper room who did not know what they were waiting for, Acts 10
the spirit falls on them while the message is given and they speak to give
evidence to Peter that the gentiles are allowed to enter the Church. And
Acts 19
The order for the Jews in Acts 2 was vs.38 repent,vs.41 they gladly received
the word then they were baptized publicly in a Christian baptism and
received the spirit of promise. Which was the same promise given to the
apostles by Jesus in Acts 1:5. The unbelieving Jews were witnesses to God
beginning a new entity the Church.
Acts 8 for the Samaritans the order was they believed and were baptized
vs.12-17 then they had the apostles lay hands on them and received the Holy
Spirit
Acts 10 the gentiles order was as he was speaking the Holy Spirit was given
because of their faith that God saw in their hearts vs.44-48 then they were
baptized. so we can see each time a different way in which the spirit was
given.
Acts 10 opposes the view of having to be baptized first to receive the
Spirit as Oneness claims. Are we to believe God poured out his Spirit in the
same way as Pentecost on people whose sins were not yet forgiven? Clearly
the Spirit is given by grace.
However we find their was a common denominator, they were all saved the same
way. By faith
Lets take a journey through the book of Acts and see what transpired in each
instance of salvation. Did all speak in tongues were all baptized (in Jesus
name) to receive the spirit. What we find will be very productive in
understanding the truth.
Acts 2 Death and resurrection are proclaimed 3,000 are saved. as Jews they
publicly declare their allegiance to Christ by being baptized and receive
the spirit. No tongues for the 3,000.This is important in that so many make
tongues the required manifestation to show they were saved. Nowhere does
anyone refer to Acts 2 as the model for each time a group or people were
saved. Only in Acts 11 does Peter recall what happened to them in the upper
room.
Acts 3:18-19 Christ's death and repentance is the focus for the forgiveness
of their sins. In Acts 4:2-4 Jesus & the resurrection is preached, not
baptism & again they believed the word & 5,000 were saved. There was no
tongues , and no baptism mentioned.
Acts 4:31 tells us they spoke the word boldly when they were filled with the
spirit. no tongues, and no baptism mentioned
Acts 8:17 Peter and John come to the Samaritans who had already received the
word of God & were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and still did not
have the spirit. ( Peter needed to be there, he was present for all three
groups : Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles) there were no tongues.
Acts 8:37-38 After hearing Isa.53 which is about the death of Jesus he asks
to be baptized, Philip reply's if you believe with all your heart. He
confesses Jesus is the son of God. no tongues (maybe he did maybe he
didn't.)
Acts 9:17-18 when Paul received salvation he did not speak in tongues until
later, yet no one would contest he was saved. When he gives his testimony he
refers back to the Damascus road encounter as the time of his Spiritual
birth. In vs. 17 it tells us when Ananias laid hands on him he was filled
with the Spirit then he was baptized.
(1Cor.15:18, Gal.1:12) He later does speak in tongues as probably all the
apostles did.
Acts 10:43 Peter says "To him give all the prophets witness, that through
his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
We have the exact reversal of Acts 2 ,they then received the Spirit from
hearing the word & believing, before any baptism. The gentiles speak in
tongues as proof of their salvation to some of the unbelieving Jews present
who refused to believe they could be partakers of salvation. If no Jews were
there would not have been necessary for this sign gift to be manifested.
vs.48 they were commanded to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Acts 11:16-18 Peter recounts the Lord saying about the difference between
water baptism and spirit baptism. Vs 17" if therefore God gave them the same
gift as he did unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ;"
Acts 15 the Jerusalem council was called because some men said that certain
parts of the law needed to be obeyed. Vs 8 Peter recounts how the gentiles
heard the word of the gospel and believed, God seeing their hearts
acknowledged them by giving them the H. Spirit just as he did us. And making
no distinction between us & them, purifying their hearts by faith vs.11" We
believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus we shall be saved in the
same manner". Notice that Peter makes it clear its by grace and that the
gentiles were actually saved being baptized in the Spirit before any
confession or baptism. (1 Cor.12:13) Everyone enters into Christ the same
way then and today.Eph.1:13 tells us when they believed in the gospel (1
Cor.15:1-4) they were sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Acts 16:31 the Philipian jailer asks what must I do to be saved ? answer
believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you & your
household. then they spoke the word of the Lord to both him & his household.
No tongues, no baptism until later
What we find in the book of Acts is no set formulae for the giving of the
Spirit. What was required in all the accounts was faith. Tongues were not
present except in a few instances.
Acts 19 vs.5 they were baptized in the name of the Lord. Jews who only
received Johns baptism had not heard of Christ's death and resurrection nor
Pentecost. It is Paul who initiates the conversation on the Holy Spirit. He
finds that they are not disciples of Christ but of John, years after they
had not heard that the one John was pointing to had already come. After
receiving the Gospel they are baptized Paul lays hands on them the Holy
Spirit comes upon them and they speak in tongues and prophecy. They did not
seek after the Spirit as the Oneness Pentecostals are told, it was a natural
occurrence. Not one instance do we see anyone laboring for the Spirit. Why
was the Spirit given after Paul laid hands on them. It was to illustrate
that they were no longer to follow John the Baptizer but the apostles who
now had the leadership role for Israel. The Church with the apostles as
their leaders replaced the Sanhedrin and Pharisees and even John.
In each case when tongues are manifested there are Jews present (sometimes
in unbelief). The conclusion can only be that that tongues were given
primarily as a sign to unbelieving Jews or to those new people groups
entering the body. As with Acts 10 they were in unbelief that the gentiles
could be saved and so God gave them the Holy Spirit and as proof gave them
languages unlearned for evidence to those present. Their conclusion was that
they received what they had at Pentecost. In Acts 19 The unbelieving Jews
that were only water baptized spoke in tongues was proof to them that Jesus
died and resurrected and the Holy Spirit had come.
Tongues is neither the initial evidence of their salvation anymore than
prophecy would be. If we take the Oneness Pentecostal attitude to its
conclusion .then one must have hands laid on them to receive the spirit and
that they must be in groups of twelve to thousands like the other
occurrences with tongues instead of single persons. One might even add that
fire should appear over their heads as it did at Pentecost. People try to
insert other incidents but they are all arguments from silence and are not
Scripturally consistent or verifiable .
Acts 26:18 "that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among
them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. that is in Jesus Christ.
The majority of teaching of how to be spiritually born is by faith. The
order today is faith, the receiving of the Holy Spirit and our response in
baptism. So with a handful of scripture on baptism with over 240 on faith
and believe, not including those about Christ's death we can see how
important it is to rightly divide the word.
Is tongues necessary for salvation? No! otherwise we will have to eliminate
most of the salvation's in the book of Acts. It is an evidence but not THE
evidence for all.
ARE TONGUES THE PROOF OF THE SPIRITS PRESENCE
Eph.1:13" In whom ye also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation: having believed, you were sealed with the holy
Spirit of promise," (2 Cor. 1:22)
Gal.3:2"Did you Received the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the
hearing of faith? Faith comes by hearing the word." Baptism is an act of
faith which must be present before they are submerged, notice they received
the Spirit by faith, by believing not by anything else.
1 Cor.12:13"For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body." Not by one
baptism do we enter. It is spirit baptism that counts.
All believers receive the baptism of the Spirit to be in Christ. This takes
place at the moment of salvation when one exercises faith in Christ. What we
are commanded is to be continually filled with the Spirit. Not to seek for
the baptism as something we don't have after we believe.
Tongues is not the proof this has happened because the very same Chpt. that
we are told of being baptized with the Holy Spirit we are also told not all
speak in tongues. Eph.5:18 tells us if one is filled with the Spirit they
will speak in Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs- no tongues are
mentioned.
Tongues is only one manifestation of the Spirits influence. It can also be
prophecy and boldness in speaking the word (in the correct manner). It can
be a great harvest of people coming to Christ as in an evangelistic crusade
(like Peters first sermon).
Its not tongues that is proof of our salvation but the Holy Spirit who
produces the fruit of the Spirit.
Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no
law. 24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the
affections and lusts. 25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the
Spirit.
Mt.717: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt
tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil
fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mt. 12:33"a tree is known by its fruit". The fruit of the Spirit shows the
life of Christ.
To be filled with the Spirit means that someone will act spiritual that they
are under the control of the Spirit and the fruit of his presence will show.
They will not lash out or anger quickly they will be patient and
longsuffering, this is how one knows they are in the Spirit and not the
flesh.
Pastor Steve Winter
>2) it contradicts the word of God while proposing to represent it.
Whoah! Bassett is really waxing autobiographical again!!!
Now that is really brazen hypocrisy from the reprobate Mark Bassett
whose whole entire ministry is founded upon BRAZEN defiance to the
Word of God!
Of course if Mark W Bassett was not disqualified from the ministry
because of a previous marriage, divorce and remarriage, his other
malicious, deceitful and even ADMITTED criminal activities (some
even documented at http://www.impsmail.org/bassett.html ) would also
show that he is not even a real Christian, much less a "preacher".
The real tragedy here, is that a small handful of gullible souls in
the Milford, CT area are actually looking to reprobate Mark Bassett
as their pastor! I never thought I would ever see the day that a
police officer would be sitting here copying the suspect details for
a criminal complaint from the UPCI ministerial handbook, but that did
happen when I first filed a formal criminal complaint about Mr.
Bassett and his harassment by wire from iconn.net.
Any of you real Oneness people reading out here need to think and pray
long and hard about that one! Pray earnestly for them that God will
let them see Mr. Bassett for that which he is and that the Lord would
reward Mark Bassett according to his works along with the pompous,
backslidden, pride engorged UPC elders like David L MacDonald who
knowingly support him.
Can you comprehend the abomination of deceived souls looking to some
filth like Mark Bassett as their PASTOR??? With backslidden, pride
engorged, reprobate UPC elders endorsing him???
There are many areas where Mr. Bassett is quite different
from real Oneness Pentecostals such as his lying, his criminal
activity, his heresies including the "automarriage doctrine",
his belief that polygamy is acceptable if necessary, his
belief that Jesus Name baptism does not immediately wash
away sins, and MANY other things documented at http://www.impsmail.org
in the Bassett section.
Pastor Steve Winter
--
"Winters, you are a blabbering heretic. In a truly godly
nation you would be executed for publicly promoting your
heretical doctrines." - Tom Albrecht trinitarian deceiver 2000
"Copyright infringement my ***" (obscenity deleted) - Brian Boggs cultist 2000
"lying to mr. winter is just a defense" - Mark Bassett UPC Preacher 1999
"It isnt a salvation issue..." - Mark Bassett 1999 regarding Biblical holiness
"Sorry old man. I never lie, if I, can help it." - Raymond W Knapp 2000
"...God is Triune in nature..." - Raymond W Knapp 2000
",I did get saved in a Southern Baptist Church," - Raymond Knapp 2000
http://www.onenesschristian.org PreRapture Ministry Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal
Pastor Steve Winter
>Oneness theology teaches that there is only one God. That God is numerically
>singular, and that Jesus Christ is that one God.
Brian Boggs is trinity filth. It is good when he admits his
polytheism like that.
Also, one should consider the first of all the commandments.
Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them
reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well,
asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments
[is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
** Many teach that it doesn't matter if you believe in three lords **
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this [is] the first commandment.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and
vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the
world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead
bodily.
Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all
principality and power:
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man
sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of
heaven.
**Right hand does not mean a big ole arm in the sky**
John 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before
Abraham was, I am.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus
shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto
you.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and
yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the
Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before
of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last
time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not
the Spirit.
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy
faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of
our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire;
hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to
present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with
exceeding joy,
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty,
dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.
Isaiah 43:11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no
saviour.
Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take
counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath
told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God
else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me.
Hosea 13:4 Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and
thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me.
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a
Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Pastor Winter
Pastor Steve Winter
>All believers receive the baptism of the Spirit to be in Christ. This takes
>place at the moment of salvation when one exercises faith in Christ. What we
>are commanded is to be continually filled with the Spirit. Not to seek for
>the baptism as something we don't have after we believe.
It is good when false-christian scum like Brian Boggs demonstrate
their ignorance in public.
Look in the following scriptures for the phrase, "Have ye received
the Holy Ghost since ye believed?". That right there should show
what deceiving false-christian filth Brian Boggs is.
The best defense against false-christian scum like Brian Boggs
is to simply know the Bible for yourself. If you do that, then
no false-christian scum like Boggs can deceive you.
The Apostle Paul preached the Acts 2:38 message. Notice how it is
referred to as the word of the Lord Jesus.
Please examine carefully the account when Paul founded the Ephesian
church.
Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth,
Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and
finding certain disciples,
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye
believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether
there be any Holy Ghost.
* Notice that "believers" did not yet have the Holy Ghost. *
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And
they said, Unto John's baptism.
* Notice that Paul questioned the validity of their baptism. *
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of
repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him
which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Note what the people IMMEDIATELY did when Paul told them to believe
on Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of
the Lord Jesus.
* Notice that they were re-baptised the Christian way. *
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost
came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
* Notice that when they did receive the Holy Ghost that they spoke in
tongues just like every other real Christian. *
Acts 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.
Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the
space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning
the kingdom of God.
Acts 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake
evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and
separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one
Tyrannus.
They had those like Brian Boggs even back then who opposed the Acts
2:38 message.
Acts 19:10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all
they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews
and Greeks.
* Notice that Paul was preaching the word of the Lord Jesus. *
Notice also the instructions Paul gave for dealing with any
of these spiritual dirt like Brian Boggs who would preach otherwise.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other
gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be
accursed.
Let all the real Christians obey Gal 1:8 regarding Brian Boggs!
Notice the plan of salvation for as many as "our God" (Jesus) shall
call.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one
of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye
shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Pastor Steve Winter
--
Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
http://www.onenesschristian.org for Bible studies (text and audio)
Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
Midwinter
> "Pastor Brian" <so...@one.com> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >Oneness theology teaches that there is only one God. That God is
numerically
> >singular, and that Jesus Christ is that one God.
>
> Brian Boggs is trinity filth. It is good when he admits his
> polytheism like that.
Steve, I think you highlighted the wrong bit here. Bearing in mind I don't
know Mr Boggs, nor did I read the rest of his post, all I see here is a man
claiming in no uncertain terms that there is only one God - and you accusing
him of polytheism.
Doesn't make a lot of sense. Would you care to explain?
By the way, the reason I didn't get the rest of his post is that irritating
thing you do where you post to five separate groups, but because you
restrict follow-up posts to one group, unless caught in time the replies
only appear on that one group. While I agree with not cross-posting,
wouldn't it be better for all concerned if you'd limit ALL your posts to
alt.christnet.public, if that's your favourite group? Then there would be
at least four groups that weren't subjected to you - plus those other groups
wouldn't end up with disjointed threads in which you appear to be replying
to yourself.
John Fraser
Pastor Brian's post described the fundamental differences between
the oneness and tri-une viewpoints beginning with an early history of
how they began. In order for you to accuse someone of polytheism,
you would be wiser to display how the other proposes that the Father,
Son and Holy Spirit are singular gods and then prove how each is
wrong. Instead, you attack the credibility of the person making
accusations which you haven't even bothered to substantiate.
Cheers,
John
Libertarius
Pastor Steve Winter
>Steve, I think you highlighted the wrong bit here. Bearing in mind I don't
>know Mr Boggs, nor did I read the rest of his post, all I see here is a man
>claiming in no uncertain terms that there is only one God - and you accusing
>him of polytheism.
The scum was attacking Oneness. He is a hardened deceiver. His whole
post was an attack against monotheism.
Pastor Winter
Mark Bassett
> "Midwinter" <mid...@aol.com> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >Steve, I think you highlighted the wrong bit here. Bearing in mind I
don't
> >know Mr Boggs, nor did I read the rest of his post, all I see here is a
man
> >claiming in no uncertain terms that there is only one God - and you
accusing
> >him of polytheism.
>
> The scum was attacking Oneness. He is a hardened deceiver. His whole
> post was an attack against monotheism.
That's good, but notice that you are talking to a person with no profession
of Christianity at all. Do you feel that you need to justify yourself?
After all, Mr. Boggs made the statement that there is one God. Though
certainly YOU know what you mean, without dialogue, or explanation dealing
in particular with the post to which you are responding, your comments can
not be read as anything except wild speculation, and accusation.
It is a shame to use good truth merely to denigrate. That is not God's
mission in this era of grace.
James B. Murphy
>
> "Pastor Brian" <so...@one.com> spake thusly and wrote:
>
> >All believers receive the baptism of the Spirit to be in Christ. This takes
> >place at the moment of salvation when one exercises faith in Christ. What we
> >are commanded is to be continually filled with the Spirit. Not to seek for
> >the baptism as something we don't have after we believe.
>
How are we to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit when that was but
one of the gifts given to the Apostles by Christ himself? That gift and
the other gifts were given in order to do miracles and signs (Mark
16:15-16..)
so that all might believe. Jesus also prophecied that "not many days
hence
you will be baptized with the Holy Ghost". It didn't say it would happen
over and over. It was a prophecy about Pentecost. The apostles were
given
those gifts and could distribute that gift to others by the laying on of
hands. Those who had received the gift could NOT give the gift to others
though. Rember Stephen? Remember him preaching and then requesting some
of the Apostles to come from Jerusalem so that others could receive the
Holy Spirit? Stephen, a gospel preacher at that time and one of the
saved could NOT GIVE THE HOLY GHOST TO ANYONE. It is and was a gift that
was only givable by the Apostles. And since they are all long since dead
how is one to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit now????
> It is good when false-christian scum like Brian Boggs demonstrate
> their ignorance in public.
>
I've never heard of the person but "false-christian scum" does seem
a bit harsh ;p
> Look in the following scriptures for the phrase, "Have ye received
> the Holy Ghost since ye believed?". That right there should show
> what deceiving false-christian filth Brian Boggs is.
>
> The best defense against false-christian scum like Brian Boggs
> is to simply know the Bible for yourself. If you do that, then
> no false-christian scum like Boggs can deceive you.
>
I agree that knowing the Bible is adamant for the condeming of
false doctrines and knowing false teachers when you see one. A good
reason to "study to shew thyself approved..."
> The Apostle Paul preached the Acts 2:38 message. Notice how it is
> referred to as the word of the Lord Jesus.
>
> Please examine carefully the account when Paul founded the Ephesian
> church.
>
> Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth,
> Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and
> finding certain disciples,
>
> Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye
> believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether
> there be any Holy Ghost.
>
> * Notice that "believers" did not yet have the Holy Ghost. *
>
They were disciples were they not? Would you not assume this meant
saved? So can you conclude that the baptism of the Holy Ghost was
or wasn't necessary?
> Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And
> they said, Unto John's baptism.
>
> * Notice that Paul questioned the validity of their baptism. *
>
> Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of
> repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him
> which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
>
> Note what the people IMMEDIATELY did when Paul told them to believe
> on Jesus.
>
> Acts 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of
> the Lord Jesus.
>
Exactly.
> * Notice that they were re-baptised the Christian way. *
>
> Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost
> came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
>
Again, the Apostles passing the Holy Ghost through the laying on of
hands.
> * Notice that when they did receive the Holy Ghost that they spoke in
> tongues just like every other real Christian. *
>
Then yes. Today the speaking in tongues is not the same as back then.
It was prophesied that the tongue-speaking would occur. But after that
it was never mentioned as being something that should occur.
The Holy Ghost was very much present at Pentecost.
> Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
> all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
>
> Pastor Steve Winter
> --
> Apostolic Oneness Pentecostal /*/ PreRapture Ministry
> http://www.onenesschristian.org for Bible studies (text and audio)
> Have you obeyed Acts 2:38 as Paul taught in Acts 19:4-6?
In Christ,
James
Mark Bassett
"James B. Murphy" <jmu...@usit.net> wrote in message
news:3B05F059...@usit.net...
> Pastor Steve Winter wrote:
> >
> > "Pastor Brian" <so...@one.com> spake thusly and wrote:
> >
> > >All believers receive the baptism of the Spirit to be in Christ. This
takes
> > >place at the moment of salvation when one exercises faith in Christ.
What we
> > >are commanded is to be continually filled with the Spirit. Not to seek
for
> > >the baptism as something we don't have after we believe.
> >
>
> How are we to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit when that was but
> one of the gifts given to the Apostles by Christ himself?
No, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the transmission of spiritual life to
any and every repentant man or woman who seeks the Lord. Jesus said "ye must
be born again". It is through the impartation of the spirit of God that man
is quickened again, unto life.
The scripture requires "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name
of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and YE SHALL receive the gift of the
Holy Ghost" In the next verse (39) of Acts 2, the Holy Ghost baptism (the
promise of the Father, of Luke 24:49) is explained: "The promise is unto you
and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord shall call")
Within the Holy Spirit baptism are every distinct spiritual gift, as
enumerated in 1 Cor 12-14. Once a person is born into the Kingdom of God
(and what is that? Peace, Righteousness and Joy in the Holy Ghost), then he
can operate in the gifts of the Spirit. But of course, he must have the
Spirit before having the gifts *of* the Spirit.
Abe Barshone
>Sender: steve.win...@prime.org (Rev. Steve Winter)
>
>
>calift...@aol.com (CalifTalljim) spake thusly and wrote:
>
>>I beg to differ, sir. Jesus called Saul from the road to Damascus in Acts 9.
>
>>Where was Saul headed? To persecute christians.
>>
>
>Ignorant reprobate spiritually whorish, gutless anon scum, Jim;
>Paul was not pretending to be Christian.
>
>Pastor Winter
>--
you call yourself a pastor? Do you kiss your wife with that mouth?