Only about four months left for Christmas
::: vera :::
it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you have
bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and cannot
know what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a cucumber or a
big spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even trolls can be found
there, chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
I really cannot wait to open another door... Maybe this time there is
something miraculous in it... Maybe a converted atheist. :-) We never
know, we never know. :-)
But I am most delighted with doors that open and I can find God inside
speaking right into my heart. :-)
Merry Christmas !
(Well, someone must be the first, so why not me? Oh, and might someone
else volunteer and please take this Happy New Year for 2006 part over?
Woahh - time is running faster than I thought, and soon there will be
another 1000 years that have passed just like this...)
::: vera :::
____________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::: vera :::
> Hi Friends,
>
> it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you have
> bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
>
> A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and cannot
> know what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a cucumber or a
> big spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even trolls can be found
> there, chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
I forgot to mention an old sock!
::: vera :::
> Hi Friends,
>
> it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you have
> bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
>
> A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and cannot
> know what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a cucumber or a
> big spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even trolls can be found
> there, chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
I forgot to mention an old sock!
::: vera :::
>>>> vera ::: <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
>> Hi Friends,
>>
>> it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you have
>> bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
>>
>> A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and cannot
>> know what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a cucumber or
>> a big spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even trolls can be
>> found there, chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
>
> I forgot to mention an old sock!
So you see, there might be two old socks, jaja.
A green one and a striped one - golden and red stripes, yes... Christmas
colours.
VO
"::: vera :::" <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote in message
news:3mv3a4F...@individual.net...
> Hi Friends,
>
Four months left for Christmas.
Christmas is one day. Are you saying that the end will come in about 120
years.
Gregory A Greenman
<ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> declared...
> Hi Friends,
>
> it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you have
> bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
>
> A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and cannot
> know what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a cucumber or a
> big spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even trolls can be found
> there, chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
>
> I really cannot wait to open another door... Maybe this time there is
> something miraculous in it... Maybe a converted atheist. :-) We never
> know, we never know. :-)
>
> But I am most delighted with doors that open and I can find God inside
> speaking right into my heart. :-)
I take it you're not "most delighted" very often.
--
Greg
----
greg00 -at- spencersoft -dot- com
Scout Lady
>
> it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you have
> bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
>
> A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and cannot know
> what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a cucumber or a big
> spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even trolls can be found there,
> chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
>
> I really cannot wait to open another door... Maybe this time there is
> something miraculous in it... Maybe a converted atheist. :-) We never
> know, we never know. :-)
>
> But I am most delighted with doors that open and I can find God inside
> speaking right into my heart. :-)
>
> Merry Christmas !
>
> (Well, someone must be the first, so why not me? Oh, and might someone
> else volunteer and please take this Happy New Year for 2006 part over?
> Woahh - time is running faster than I thought, and soon there will be
> another 1000 years that have passed just like this...)
>
Scout Lady
> ::: vera ::: <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
>>>>> vera ::: <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
>>> Hi Friends,
>>>
>>> it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you have
>>> bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
>>>
>>> A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and cannot
>>> know what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a cucumber or
>>> a big spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even trolls can be
>>> found there, chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
>>
>> I forgot to mention an old sock!
>
> So you see, there might be two old socks, jaja.
>
> A green one and a striped one - golden and red stripes, yes... Christmas
> colours.
>
::: vera :::
> "::: vera :::" <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote in message
> news:3mv6guF...@individual.net...
>>>>> vera ::: <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
>>>>>> vera ::: <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
>>>> Hi Friends,
>>>>
>>>> it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you
>>>> have bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
>>>>
>>>> A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and
>>>> cannot know what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a
>>>> cucumber or a big spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even
>>>> trolls can be found there, chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
>>>
>>> I forgot to mention an old sock!
>>
>> So you see, there might be two old socks, jaja.
>>
>> A green one and a striped one - golden and red stripes, yes...
>> Christmas colours.
>>
> Perhaps acid?
Sometimes, really.
I like old socks more, however. LOL
You see, when I opened this door to this post here, it was like a lovely
summer morning. :-D
May the sun shine on you,
::: vera :::
Scout Lady
> Scout Lady <scou...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> "::: vera :::" <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote in message
>> news:3mv6guF...@individual.net...
>>>>>> vera ::: <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
>>>>>>> vera ::: <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Friends,
>>>>>
>>>>> it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you
>>>>> have bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and
>>>>> cannot know what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a
>>>>> cucumber or a big spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even
>>>>> trolls can be found there, chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
>>>>
>>>> I forgot to mention an old sock!
>>>
>>> So you see, there might be two old socks, jaja.
>>>
>>> A green one and a striped one - golden and red stripes, yes...
>>> Christmas colours.
>>>
>> Perhaps acid?
>
> Sometimes, really.
>
> I like old socks more, however. LOL
>
I like new socks preferably Hanes.
> You see, when I opened this door to this post here, it was like a lovely
> summer morning. :-D
>
They don't call me little Miss Sunshine for nothing you know.
::: vera :::
WOW! GREAT! A SCOUT LADY!
Where is Barbie, where is Ken?
LOL
Peace,
::: vera :::
> "::: vera :::" <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote in message
> news:3n0lv3F...@individual.net...
>> Scout Lady <scou...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> "::: vera :::" <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote in message
>>> news:3mv6guF...@individual.net...
>>>>>>> vera ::: <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>> vera ::: <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Friends,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you
>>>>>> have bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and
>>>>>> cannot know what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a
>>>>>> cucumber or a big spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even
>>>>>> trolls can be found there, chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
>>>>>
>>>>> I forgot to mention an old sock!
>>>>
>>>> So you see, there might be two old socks, jaja.
>>>>
>>>> A green one and a striped one - golden and red stripes, yes...
>>>> Christmas colours.
>>>>
>>> Perhaps acid?
>>
>> Sometimes, really.
>>
> I believe it.
>
>> I like old socks more, however. LOL
>>
> I like new socks preferably Hanes.
But they are very rare to get here in the newsgroups. You should be
grateful for the old socks, too. Be glad if they were washed before they
were put into the posts, which is not granted at all. If they have some
small holes - no prob. Indeed, they MUST have holes, otherwise you could
not pull them over your feet. :-D
>> You see, when I opened this door to this post here, it was like a
>> lovely summer morning. :-D
>>
> They don't call me little Miss Sunshine for nothing you know.
Oh, I believe you every word! That is why my heart opens so heavily and
my pulse starts beating at double speed when I open your posts. :-)
:-)
Speed me up, Scouty. lol
Peace,
Scout Lady
>
>>> You see, when I opened this door to this post here, it was like a
>>> lovely summer morning. :-D
>>>
>> They don't call me little Miss Sunshine for nothing you know.
>
> Oh, I believe you every word! That is why my heart opens so heavily and my
> pulse starts beating at double speed when I open your posts. :-)
>
> :-)
>
> Speed me up, Scouty. lol
>
If you prefer to powder you nose I can't help you. If you have good
insurance I can point you to a physician that prescribes "weight loss
medications".
Scout Lady
> Scout Lady <scou...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> "::: vera :::" <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote in message
>> news:3mv3a4F...@individual.net...
>>> Hi Friends,
>>>
>>> it struck me today that there is not much time left. I hope you have
>>> bought all the Christmas presents already. :-)
>>>
>>> A newsgroup is like a Christmas calendar. You open a post, and
>>> cannot know what will show up there... Is it a sweet pudding, a
>>> cucumber or a big spider, a dead fly or a dollar monster, even
>>> trolls can be found there, chocolate monkeys or small buddhas.
>>>
>>> I really cannot wait to open another door... Maybe this time there is
>>> something miraculous in it... Maybe a converted atheist. :-) We never
>>> know, we never know. :-)
>>>
>>> But I am most delighted with doors that open and I can find God
>>> inside speaking right into my heart. :-)
>>>
>>> Merry Christmas !
>>>
>>> (Well, someone must be the first, so why not me? Oh, and might
>>> someone else volunteer and please take this Happy New Year for 2006
>>> part over? Woahh - time is running faster than I thought, and soon
>>> there will be another 1000 years that have passed just like this...)
>>>
>> Have you been smoking that funny stuff again Vera?
>
> WOW! GREAT! A SCOUT LADY!
>
> Where is Barbie, where is Ken?
>
have a house, car or boat. Barbie prefered Big Jim (after all he had that
really big camper) and Ken married the Green Ranger.
::: vera :::
Really, Scout Lady! The good thing is one does not have to open all
those old socks' doors. I mostly leave them closed. Nah - I do not never
not notime use a killfile, ever. :-D
>>>> You see, when I opened this door to this post here, it was like a
>>>> lovely summer morning. :-D
>>>>
>>> They don't call me little Miss Sunshine for nothing you know.
>>
>> Oh, I believe you every word! That is why my heart opens so heavily
>> and my pulse starts beating at double speed when I open your posts.
>> :-)
> My goodness........is it because I'm sitting here in a bathing suit?
Not really! I am not interested in half-naked ladies. LOL
Do not tell me you are posting in a bathing suit here all the time. :-D
I dreamed of you two nights ago, I think. I was swimming then. You could
have told me that was you there with the rubber duck and the swimming
wings... I would have invited you for a cup of coffee and some cake.
Whaddayawant? Sugar, milk? Anything?
>> :-)
>>
>> Speed me up, Scouty. lol
>>
> If you prefer to powder you nose I can't help you. If you have good
> insurance I can point you to a physician that prescribes "weight loss
> medications".
Great! I could really need some of those. :-D But I think you might not
mean what I mean here. You might wish me to lose as much weight until
there is nothing left of me. Hey, confess, and you might get special
conditions for my future answers to you. If you do not, too. :-D
Love ya and your cynical comments. :-x
Scout Lady
some kind of rule about using more than one negative in a sentence.
>>>>> You see, when I opened this door to this post here, it was like a
>>>>> lovely summer morning. :-D
>>>>>
>>>> They don't call me little Miss Sunshine for nothing you know.
>>>
>>> Oh, I believe you every word! That is why my heart opens so heavily
>>> and my pulse starts beating at double speed when I open your posts.
>>> :-)
>> My goodness........is it because I'm sitting here in a bathing suit?
>
> Not really! I am not interested in half-naked ladies. LOL
>
I think they call themselves Barenaked Ladies. IIRC they are a Canadian
band.
> Do not tell me you are posting in a bathing suit here all the time. :-D
Only in the morning during the summertime, I usually go in when the
temperature outside gets unbearable. I usually keep the house cool and then
put on lots of clothes because it gets too darn cold. I do it just so my
husband has something to complain about when he comes home.
> I dreamed of you two nights ago, I think. I was swimming then. You could
> have told me that was you there with the rubber duck and the swimming
> wings...
I was the one on the solar raft with the diet Pete's Choice, my son was the
one with the swimming wings and it was probably a dinosaur rather than a
duck.
>I would have invited you for a cup of coffee and some cake. Whaddayawant?
>Sugar, milk? Anything?
>
I am very picky about my coffee. I only like Wawa coffee that is freshly
brewed, usually a 24 oz cup with three sugars and a dash of either French
Vanilla Cappuccino or a shot of Frangelica depending on my needs and/or
mood. I would have to skip the cake as I had a really greasy but very tasty
cheesesteak with fried onions and peppers and fried onion rings and I washed
it down with several frozen margarita's over the weekend ....thus I must now
give up eating anything but carrot sticks until at least Thursday.
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> Speed me up, Scouty. lol
>>>
>> If you prefer to powder you nose I can't help you. If you have good
>> insurance I can point you to a physician that prescribes "weight loss
>> medications".
>
> Great! I could really need some of those. :-D But I think you might not
> mean what I mean here. You might wish me to lose as much weight until
> there is nothing left of me.
It doesn't matter to me whether you lose weight or gain it, you asked to be
speeded up and the easiest way I know of that is legally available is
available by prescription only. Eventually you will return to dust whether
you lose weight or not. Did you know that a body left on the surface of a
woods in Oregan will have have completely decomposed (except for the bones
which will be scattered by animals) in 10 months or less? Now if that same
body is thrown in a bog it could be perserved for years to come. I just
read it in an Ann Rule book this week so I thought I would share it with
you.
>Hey, confess, and you might get special conditions for my future answers to
>you. If you do not, too. :-D
>
What would you like me to confess? How about a general confession? I have
done practically everything one shouldn't do except killing someone,
stealing something, committing a sex crime, driving while intoxicated or
illegally ingesting a controlled substance. I am not aware of any deadly
sin on my soul at the present time so it is okay to pray for me.
> Love ya and your cynical comments. :-x
>
I had to look up cynical because I thought the definition had changed.
Perhaps the word you are looking for is playful.
::: vera :::
Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are divorced. :-(
Dave
> Scout Lady <scou...@nospam.net> wrote:
Snip
> >> Where is Barbie, where is Ken?
> >>
> > Perhaps you didn't hear. Barbie and Ken divorced and that
> > is why Ken doesn't have a house, car or boat. Barbie
> > prefered Big Jim (after all he had that really big camper) and
> > Ken married the Green Ranger.
>
> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are divorced. :-(
You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized" pagan ritual, right?
::: vera :::
Party Pooper.
Dave
> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
Snip
> >> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are
> >> divorced. :-(
> >
> > You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized"
> > pagan ritual, right?
>
> Party Pooper.
I'll take that as a "yes."
::: vera :::
Take it as what I wrote. :-)
el pablo vs the gravamen (thunder of heaven)
> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Snip
> >
> >>>> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are
> >>>> divorced. :-(
> >>>
> >>> You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized"
> >>> pagan ritual, right?
> >>
> >> Party Pooper.
> >
> > I'll take that as a "yes."
>
> Take it as what I wrote. :-)
hi vera - then it is only about 4 months until the wienachtwurstmiester
comes too right?! i never can remember that character's name -
probably why i get trouble at christmas time eh?
are you in a debate or are some people debating the christmas thing
again? as if the festivals of the Old Testament didn't coincide
(strangely) with the common festivals of the seasons practiced by the
people around the children of israel! which of course, they did - only
God would not allow them to be practiced for other gods or with evil
ceremonies - but peculiarly unto himself.
oh well, i'd never wrangle over that too much - people seem headstrong
on finding out what's wrong with christianity - why spend such effort
when there's so much more right about following the risen Christ and
seeing his sun rise in our hearts.
merry christmas vera - and if you have the time - remind me who the
weinernachtmunster is - and how to type an umlaut as well.
peace to you and yours - 'tis the season!
pablo
Dave
> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Snip
> >
> >>>> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are
> >>>> divorced. :-(
> >>>
> >>> You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized"
> >>> pagan ritual, right?
> >>
> >> Party Pooper.
> >
> > I'll take that as a "yes."
>
> Take it as what I wrote. :-)
If I do that, then I have to wonder if you're one of those that we run
into far too often, that is, someone who wants to avoid issues like
that and would rather live with something other than reality.
::: vera :::
Huh? Is there another "reality" to "party pooper" than "party pooper"? I
did not know...
Dave
> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Snip
> >>>
> >>>>>> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are
> >>>>>> divorced. :-(
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized"
> >>>>> pagan ritual, right?
> >>>>
> >>>> Party Pooper.
> >>>
> >>> I'll take that as a "yes."
> >>
> >> Take it as what I wrote. :-)
> >
> > If I do that, then I have to wonder if you're one of those
> > that we run into far too often, that is, someone who wants
> > to avoid issues like that and would rather live with something
> > other than reality.
>
> Huh? Is there another "reality" to "party pooper" than "party
> pooper"?
Yep, there is. It depends on why you said it.
> I did not know...
Now you do.
Muffin
TIME TO GET SOME REGULARS IN
The following article was printed in the Sydney Morning Herald Saturday
December 22nd 1990
The Author, Geoffrey Parrinder was at that time Emeritus Professor of the
Comparative Study of Religion of the University of London
INACCURATE CONCEPTION
In the Christmas story, as it is usually presented, there is much that is
unnatural. The scenes which appear on our Christmas cards and which are
conjured in our carols have, over the centuries, become increasingly
removed from their Gospel roots and have been distorted by the
interpretations provided by a succession of theologians.
There are countless representations of the Holy Family from centuries of
painting in the East and West but the characters have often been
inadequately portrayed and whole dimensions of family life have been
missing. Joseph the putative father of Jesus, is often shown with a bald
head and white beard, or he is overshadowed by his wife and child in
quite unoriental fashion. But the Gospels never aged or banished Joseph;
rather he was given a crucial role which was later underestimated or
brushed aside.
Mary, mother of Jesus, came to dominate in icons and paintings as the
Madonna either with her child or alone. At times she suckles her baby,
but often she is detached, not only serene but impassive, with a virginity
that contradicts her maternity. The infant Jesus has been shown in
various attitudes, lying helpless or sitting in almost Buddhist
meditation. Jesus was Mary's "firstborn son", according to the Gospel,
and it is hardly to be expected that later children would appear in
pictures of this baby being fed . But there are missed opportunities of
showing the growing boy and His relations with the rest of the family.
But new approaches can be made through modern critical study of the
Gospels, and neglected questions can be considered: What was the true
role of Joseph? How old was he? Did he and Mary have other children? Was
Jesus the elder brother? Should a larger family replace the traditional
trio or duo?
In the Gospel of Mark (6, 3), the first written Gospel, four brothers of
Jesus are named - James, Joseph, Judah, and Simon - and these are repeated
in Matthew's Gospel. Mark also writes of "sisters", and Matthew says " his
sisters are they not all with us?" Sisters means at least two. With Jesus
as firstborn, the number of children in the family at Nazareth would
eventually have been at least seven, perhaps eight or more, a model Jewish
family.
The brothers of Jesus are mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. His "brothers
and mother" appear several times. "James, the Lord's brother" became head
of the church of Jerusalem, the risen Christ is said to have appeared to
James, and the "brothers of the Lord" were noted as married men (1
Corinthians 9)
The natural explanation of the brothers and sisters of Jesus is that they
are later children of Joseph and Mary. Early Christian writers, such as
Tertullian in the second century and Helvidius in the fourth, agree that
these other children were brothers and sisters of Jesus by blood, by the
same parents. The word used for brothers, adelphoi, means just that. It
does not denote , as is still sometimes claimed," cousins", for which the
word anepsoi was available.
However there later developed a belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary,
which reflected conviction in the superiority of virginity over maternity,
or spirit over flesh, which might have come from Greek dualism of soul and
body but was certainly not Hebraic or generally Biblical. In this
impossible role, Mary was denied what married women experience, physically
and emotionally. Perhaps she became a sublimation of the mother image,
and this went along with a denial of physical intercourse with her
husband.
The brothers and sisters of Jesus were then said to be children of Joseph
by a previous wife, for which there is no Biblical authority whatever, or
that they were cousins of Jesus, again without foundation. Joseph came to
be depicted now as beyond the urges of the flesh: "Joseph was an old man,
when he wedded Mary", says the carol, without any Biblical evidence, and
so he would be able to cope with enforced chastity with his virgin wife.
It is more likely that Joseph - and Mary too - was young and ardent.
Theologians and writers of apocryphal tales exaggerated Mary's virginity,
even to prurient details of her unbroken hymen, proved by a midwife who
"made trial" to discover it. Celibate Christian writers were , and often
are still, influenced by notions of the impurity or inferior status of
sexual intercourse. Yet the Bible regards sex as given by God, and our
first parents were told to "be fruitful and multiply". In the birth
stories of Matthew and Luke, with all their inconsistencies, there is
never any suggestion that sex is unclean or that Jesus would be preserved
from sin by a celestial conception. And such prejudice would be contrary
to the doctrine of the incarnation, in which " the Word became flesh".
Jesus was fully human, born into a normal human family, had brothers and
sisters, with Joseph and Mary enjoying a real married life.
The evidence for this normal conjugal union, with plain statements about
the brothers and sisters of Jesus, is one of the arguments against the
idea of the virgin birth which may have originated in some circles in the
second generation of Christians. Mark's Gospel knows nothing of it, nor
do the Pauline epistles which were written even earlier. Even the latest
Gospel, that of John says nothing of a virgin birth.
The two accounts of the virginal conception occur in the Gospels of
Matthew and Luke, and they are very different from each other, Matthew
tells of four dreams by Joseph, introduces the Magi, has the massacre of
the innocents, and sees Joseph and Mary going to Nazareth only after a
return from Egypt.
He is dominated by concern for the fulfilment of prophecy, with forced
interpretations. "Behold a virgin shall conceive" is quoted from Isaiah,
where scholars are agreed that the rendering "virgin" is not justifiable
and the word employed meant a young woman of marriageable age. The wise
men bring gold and incense like the gentiles of Isaiah 60. Matthew
quotes" out of Egypt I called my son" from Hosea, where it referred to
the Hebrews at the exodus. Matthew also says "the prophets" declared that
"He shall be called a Nazarene", which cannot be traced to any prophetical
book.
Luke has a different approach. Mary lives in Nazareth and is espoused to
Joseph; an angel announces to her the birth of Jesus and when Mary
protests that she does not yet " know a man", she is told that the power
of the Highest would overshadow her. This need not have meant that the
child would not have come through Joseph, and apart from this phrase the
rest of Luke's story reads naturally. Later he writes of Joseph as "the
father" of Jesus and refers to" the parents" of Jesus.
There are several layers of tradition in these accounts, no doubt coming
from different circles and dates. Further notable inconsistencies ,
which undermine the idea of a virginal conception. are to be found in the
genealogies which both evangelists set out. Clearly these were attempts
by the early communities to prove the descent of Jesus from David, or
Abraham or Adam, a theme found elsewhere in the Gospels.
The genealogies of Matthew and Luke differ from each other and can hardly
be harmonised. Curiously Matthew's list includes five women, but these
are not the great mothers of Israel like Sarah, Rebecca or Rachel, but
later women, all of whom might have had some dubious characteristics.
Tamar played the harlot, Rahab was a harlot, Ruth was a foreigner from
Moab, Bathsheba was an adulteress, and Mary might have been accused of
immorality, though this was a ham-fisted way of dealing with such a
charge.
But the chief objection is that both genealogies agree in tracing the
ancestry of Jesus through Joseph as father, and this contradicts the
notion of virginal conception. If Joseph was not regarded, at least by
those who compiled the lists, as the father of Jesus, then their recording
would have been pointless.
It seems a reasonable conclusion that Jesus was the natural and legitimate
child of Joseph and Mary. Joseph would be his human father, even if the
Holy Spirit directed the union and conception. Then the rest of the
family, boys and girls, followed in due course to make this large group,
with its joys and griefs.
If such a conclusion would be negative in renouncing traditional belief in
a virgin birth, it would be positive in opening up fresh ways of
appreciating all the figures of the Holy Family and linking it with normal
family life. It provides a more natural understanding of Jesus, fully
human as the doctrine of the incarnation requires, and "in all points
tempted like as we are".
How then should the scene of the Nativity and the life of the Holy Family
be portrayed? Artists could depict the family in ways unthought of since
the first century and new light might appear on old themes. Mary has often
been shown as untouched and remote, an Athene-like figure, ever-virgin and
a model of perpetual youth. But she could be more like the Earth Mother,
entirely maternal after bearing seven children, with full figure and face
lined from the care of family life.
In these days of openness on sexual subjects , and with married
theologians we may speak of the partnership of Joseph and Mary, rather
than Mary alone with her passive baby. The continued love of the parents
could be a model for later generations, consecrating sex rather than
renouncing it, Joseph should no longer be in the background, a shadowy
figure, old and grey-bearded. He should be young and active, though
perhaps a dreamer like his namesake in Genesis. Further, Jewish society
was patriarchal and Joseph would have been the dominant partner rather
than Mary, or at least he would play a full part in bringing up his
family.
Jesus constantly called God his Father , and perhaps the significance of
this has not been fully recognised. The heavenly Father would be modelled
partly on the human father, Joseph. Jesus was later called "the
carpenter" or "the carpenters son" He would work alongside Joseph and
when His father died He would take His place as elder son and head of the
family. Perhaps this is why Jesus did not begin His ministry till He was
30 years old
The infant Jesus in Christian art has often been shown as unnaturally
detached or precocious, and He appears as unreal in later literature. The
dualistic opposition of flesh and spirit lingers on, and even Protestants
sing at Christmas "Lo, He abhors not the virgin's womb", as if it were
unclean. At a more banal level , another carol asserts that "the little
Lord Jesus no crying He makes", which would make Him a very unhealthy
child.
The seven children of the family had their own characteristics, and they
could be depicted as variously as El Greco painted the twelve apostles and
other saints. That they did not always agree with Him can be deduced from
verses where they stood outside a crowd and called for Him, or suggested
that He was "beside himself". But James became leader of the Jewish
Christians in Jerusalem, and epistles were credited to him and to Jude.
The sisters might have been among the women who followed Jesus with His
mother, and stood by the cross when the disciples had fled.
It theologians had expounded the biblical texts more critically, and
dismissed later speculations, traditional artists could have done more
justice to this rich family life. Perhaps future artists will be able to
benefit from the new approaches of modern critical study and, looking more
closely at the Gospels, produce new images which overturn the stereotypes
of so many of the cards which adorn our Christmas mantelpieces.
Muffin
During the Advent, Christmas and Epiphany seasons a form of worship known
as "The Festival of Lessons and Carols" usually finds its way into the
liturgies of our various churches. There are many advantages to this
service. It gives our choirs an opportunity to sing some of the beautiful
seasonal music. It provides an opportunity for a variety of lay leaders to
read familiar passages of holy scripture. It frees the clergy from the
task of preparing yet another sermon during the busy holiday season.
Congregations anticipate and enjoy this service. It is indeed almost a
holiday ritual that takes its place alongside the Christmas pageant and
the midnight service.
The Festival of Lessons and Carols was introduced in 1880 by Bishop F. W.
Benson of the Diocese of Truro in the United Kingdom. In 1918 it was
adopted by King's College, Cambridge and from there has made its way into
churches across the English speaking world.
Despite its history, the beauty of its music and even its popularity, I do
not believe I would allow this service in its present form again in a
church where I was serving as rector or vicar. Nor do I believe I would
attend this service again by choice. My reason is that the service of
lessons and carols is based on a fundamentally flawed theological concept.
As such, it undergirds an attitude toward the Bible that I find uninformed
and
increasingly distasteful. Let me explain. The service begins with readings
from the Hebrew scriptures. These particular passages are chosen because
they appear to us Christians to be literal prophecies that were lived out
and fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth. We act as if these Hebrew scriptures
actually contained a blueprint for the words Jesus spoke and the deeds he
did. Listen even now to the typical way we hear the familiar narratives
that we have incorporated into the Christian story. "A shoot shall come
out from the stump of David, and a branch shall grow out of his roots
(Isa. 11:1)." "But you Bethlehem......from you shall come forth for me one
who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from old, from ancient days
(Micah 5:2)." "A young woman (The King James Bible would say 'virgin') is
with child and shall bear a son and shall name him Emmanuel (Isa. 7:14)."
"Rise, shine for your light has come and the glory of the Lord has risen
upon you (Isa. 60:1)." "The people who walked in darkness have seen a
great light (Isa. 11:3)." "And his name shall be called wonderful,
counselor, mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace (Isa. 9:6)."
We recognize these passages immediately because they have been read over
the centuries as part of our Christmas celebration. Indeed, Frederick
Handel imprinted many of these passages into our minds indelibly as part
of his incredibly beautiful oratorio "Messiah." So deeply have we come to
associate these texts with Christ that many people believe they were
actually written about him. Some even think they are found in the Gospels.
Actually every quotation I have cited above comes out of a period of
history from the 8th century B.C.E. to the 6th century B.C.E.! Once this
elementary insight enters our minds, then the Christian rationalization
process begins and one hears it said that even though these words were
written 600 to 800 years before the birth of Jesus, they are nonetheless
actual prophecies about Jesus, which were fulfilled in a literal and
miraculous way. Underlying this claim is the assumption that God planned
the story of salvation in such a way as to require these ancient writers
to pen words for their texts that would be fulfilled centuries later in
specific detail. This was thought to prove the divine nature of Jesus. It
was such a cozy, circular and apparently persuasive theory that such
explanations became normative with little or no critical study. Most of us
have grown up with some version of this understanding.
But these assumptions are biblical nonsense and commit us to accept a
superstitious interpretation of the Bible. Think for just a moment exactly
what such a claim would mean to the concept of revelation: It would first
understand God as the master planner in the sky who dictated the content
of the prophetic writings so that a divine plan would be seen to occupy
vast sweeps of time as one unfolding whole. God would have to control the
world so tightly that the words God caused to be written centuries before
would govern little events that occurred centuries later. Because we know
today that the Gospel writers did not quote the Hebrew originals, we would
also have to ascribe to God the micromanaging process of directing the
various translations of these texts so that the exact prophetic message,
penned in the original Hebrew, would still be preserved intact in the new
Greek language into which the Gospels were destined to be written. Next we
have to take into consideration the fact that in this six to eight hundred
year migration, God would have to guarantee that the prophetic predictions
would be accurately and precisely hand-copied literally dozens of times.
We also need to recall that the works of these prophets existed on
individual scrolls, not bound together into a single volume. Frequently
such scrolls were stolen, lost, burned or otherwise destroyed. To protect
these divine revelations against this contingency would again require that
God must oversee these sacred writings and keep them from harm during vast
stretches of time. The view of God revealed in this analysis is very
human, a superstitious, invasive, inadequate God, indeed. Yet that image,
unbelievable as it is, permeates the common mind of many Christians, and
it is this view of God that is revealed again and again in the liturgy we
call "The Festival of Lessons and Carols." This is the mentality that
suggests that the prophets foretold exact events according to the long
range plan that God had encoded centuries earlier in the Bible. Only
Gentile interpreters, imposing their western minds upon these Jewish
scriptures, could devise such a strange doctrine of revelation or seek to
impose upon the scriptures such a superstitious explanation. The reality
we find in the Bible, when properly understood, is 180 degrees different
from this self-serving Christian interpretation. Jesus did not fulfill
these prophetic writings in a supernatural, literal way. Rather the words
of the ancient prophets were used by the Gospel writers to interpret him.
The story of Jesus was actually crafted with the Hebrew scriptures open.
Episodes in Jesus' life were written to conform to the prophetic
expectations. Words were placed on Jesus' lips to make the prophecies find
their fulfillment in him. That is why the fit is so perfect. The Gospel
writers believed that the God who had been present in Moses, Joshua,
Elijah and Elisha was present in Jesus and so stories once told about
heroes of the past could legitimately be told about Jesus of Nazareth. The
account of Pharaoh killing all the boy babies in Egypt when Moses was born
was retold in the Gospel as a Jesus story with Herod playing the role of
the Pharaoh by killing all the boy babies in Bethlehem when Jesus was
born. Since the God who had been pointed to in the Psalms and the Prophets
was now seen in Jesus, so the prophetic words were simply attributed to
Jesus. He was made to quote Psalm 22 from the cross, not because he
actually said these words, but because those words adequately interpreted
the God experience met in Jesus of Nazareth. The Gospels were not designed
to be biographies with literally accurate details. They were Jewish
portraits painted by Jewish authors. God had been met anew in Jesus. That
was the experience. To interpret that experience in a Jewish context was
the reason the Gospels were written.
That is why we find in the Gospels the stories, words and expectations of
the Jewish past wrapped around the person of Jesus. This means that the
prophets were not soothsayers who predicted specific events that would
occur centuries later. They were rather authors whose words were adopted
by the Gospel writers in order to allow the meaning of Jesus to be
reflected in the wisdom of the Jewish past.
For us today to line up passages of the Hebrew scriptures with passages
showing their "fulfillment" in the Gospels as if to suggest that the
correlation results from a supernatural plan of salvation placed in the
scriptures hundreds of years ago is to engage in bad theology and to
violate the integrity of the Jewish scriptures. It also perpetuates a
strange concept of the Bible itself. Yet that is exactly the glue that
holds together the service we call "The Festival of Lessons and Carols."
That is why this liturgical form has lost appeal for me.
Does that mean that I want the Church to abandon the message of Jesus as
the fulfillment of the expectations of the ages? Of course not. I too want
the Church to shout to the highest heaven "God was in this Christ!" This
is our experience. But that God presence was not achieved by a Wizard of
Oz who had a heavenly script worked out centuries before that was
magically hidden in the ancient texts of the Jews only to be discovered by
the Gospel writers. Jesus did not fulfill the literal expectations of the
Hebrew scriptures. The story of his life was written on the basis of these
ancient sources. We must cease to ask the gospels the strangely western
question: "Did this event actually occur?" We must rather begin to ask the
gospels the Jewish question: "What does it mean that, when trying to
understand the God met in Jesus, these evangelists cast the events of his
life in terms of those sacred stories of their past?" The Gospels were
designed to paint an interpretive portrait, not to provide us with literal
snapshots.
This approach to the Bible breaks the sacred texts open in dramatic new
ways, and delivers us from yesterday's mindless fundamentalism. One of the
casualties of this insight will inevitably be the format of the Festival
of Lessons and Carols, which was created on the basis of a literal, and
now discredited, view of the Bible. A Church that wants to engage the
future cannot perpetuate this ignorance of the past.
The music of the season must find a new way to express itself. The
Festival of Lessons and Carols in its present form, however, must go.
Liturgists with a commitment to scholarship and with an eye to the future
need to develop for us a new form for this beautiful service. I hope they
will.
John S. Spong, Bishop of Newark
Muffin
he was holy and of the Spirit, was thus now joined with this suggestion in
the epistle to the Hebrews that the ideal high priest, Melchizedek, after
whom Jesus was modeled, had no human origins. The stage was thus set for
the story of Jesus' miraculous birth to enter the tradition, and enter it
did.
It came first in the work of Matthew, the most Jewish of the gospel
writers. This author would use a miraculous birth story to counter the
charges of Jesus' base birth that were abroad in conservative Jewish
circles. He would demonstrate that those who called Jesus "the son of
Mary," as if he were one whose paternity was in question, simply did not
understand his origins. He would reject their charge that he was of
Beelzebub by asserting that he was born at the initiation of the Holy
Spirit. He would place that truth into a literal narrative that would
support the words of Jesus that anyone who thought that his origins were
base was in fact guilty of the unforgivable sin of blaspheming against the
Holy Spirit.
So the story of the virgin birth, with its affirmation of paternity by the
Holy Spirit, took shape in Matthew's mind, and "the carpenter, the son of
Mary" in Mark (6:3) became "the carpenter's son whose mother is called
Mary" in Matthew (I3:55) But, as a Jewish scribe, Matthew had to be true
to his scribal training. He needed to ground that assertion in the
scriptures of his people. So Matthew, searching the sacred story of the
Hebrew people to find a text on which he could develop his story of Jesus'
holy origins, fastened on to a verse in the Greek translation of the Book
of Isaiah (7:I4). "Behold a virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a
son and you shall call his name Emmanuel, which means 'God is with us.'"
And so it was that the virgin entered the Christian story. It did not
matter to Matthew that the word "virgin" was not in the original Hebrew
text. It did not matter that the historic context in which the words of
Isaiah were written was the siege of Jerusalem by the Syrians and the army
of the Northern Kingdom in the eighth century B.C.E. It did not matter
that the child in Isaiah who was to be born to this woman was to be a
divine sign that Jerusalem would survive that particular siege and the
life of the nation would go on, as indeed it did.
Matthew's task was to demonstrate to the critics of this Jesus who were
attacking his origins that they were so deeply in error that they were in
danger of placing themselves into a status beyond the possibility of
forgiveness. They were guilty of calling that which was of the Holy Spirit
evil. They had actually confused God with Satan. It was a powerful
assertion and a provocative story. But few people through the centuries
were to recognize that the origin of what came to be known as the
Christmas story was born as a polemic against those most conservative
factions of Jerusalem Jewry who sought to diminish Jesus' influence among
the more open Jews by asserting that he was base-born, illegitimate, of
the devil himself.
Luke developed the story without once referring to Matthew's exceedingly
problematic virgin text. Luke's added witness served to solidify this
tradition of a divine origin for Jesus, and so this tradition began its
journey through history. On that journey the story of Jesus' birth, as we
have noted, picked up other legends, fantasies, mythologies, and folklore
of the centuries and carried them along with it.
Before closing this chronicle, it is important to recognize that the
virgin birth tradition suffered a momentary eclipse when the Fourth Gospel
appeared in the tenth decade. Perhaps this author saw that the birth story
had already been literalized, and he did not want its essential truth lost
in such nonsensical literal images. As we noted earlier, this gospel
portrayed Jesus quite simply as the child of Joseph and Mary, but the
theme of being born in and of the Spirit was not lost by this writer.
For John, Jesus had been born on two levels. He was born not just of the
will of the flesh, but also of the Spirit (John I:I3). Indeed, his flesh
became the vehicle through which his spirit was made known. So must
everyone be, John argued, who comes into the Christian faith. The believer
must be "born again." No, that did not mean to return to one's mother's
womb to be born a second time, as Nicodemus, literalist that he was,
seemed to believe (John 3:I-I 5). It meant that having been born as Jesus
was, according to the flesh, one must also be, as Jesus was, born of the
Spirit, born to the wonder and reality of God. Life in the Spirit was life
that was whole, real, transcendent, and open. It was life through which
God could be seen calling, healing, loving, and making all things new and
whole. It was this life that Jesus came to bring.
The virgin birth story had a fascinating history of development. When the
story was finally written, like all similar stories, it met its fate among
the literalizers, and so its power was lost among those who do not
understand myths as vehicles through which wordless truth can be conveyed.
The meaning of this symbol, however, was and continues to be profound. In
Jesus we have met a presence of God that human life alone could not have
created. God has come among us offering life, love, and being to this
world. Those who respond and accept the divine invitation to let this
power be born in them as believers are to be introduced to the meaning of
the Holy Spirit. In that Spirit we too are carried beyond all of our human
limits into the wonder and transcendence of God. When we live in the realm
of the Spirit, we know that the ultimate purpose of God was met in this
Jesus, whom John quoted as having said, "I came that they may have life
and have it abundantly" (John IO:IO). For abundant life is always life in
the Spirit that carries us into the timelessness of God."
(John Shelby Spong - Bishop of Newark retired - "Liberating The Gospels")
Posted in the interests of review and recommendation
Muffin
Ron from the Internet writes:
"I wonder if fiddling around on the periphery on the issues of gay and
lesbian rights can ever yield what the Church lacks: a compelling vision
which, if received and fulfilled, would improve humanity as a whole.
Christianity has no unique truth and its claims, like those of all various
religions, is that it must rest upon a "Thus saith the Lord."
My own view, an ever-changing one I admit, is that the Church has no
transcendent truth to offer and knows it full well. If nothing you offer
has self-evident merit and you can't admit the truth and survive as an
organization, then you resort to either intimidating everyone within into
an orthodoxy no one sees the sense or benefit in obeying any longer or you
wander aimlessly about preaching inoffensive feel-good messages that
everyone agrees with anyway without getting out of bed early on a Sunday
AM. Both directions lead to irrelevance and that is the crux of the
matter.
The Church is irrelevant because truth is irrelevant to the Church and it
has nothing to offer that I can't get elsewhere without having to abandon
my common sense or individual autonomy. It either demands orthodoxy in
matters even school children should know are primitivistic and silly or it
demands orthodoxy toward a nameless Care Bear worldview that scarcely
needs a Church to propose it.
Primitive tribal codes or anomie. Not much to choose between and not much
to justify buildings, clergy, tax exemptions, satellite channels, etc.
Jesus was either a deity or a lay preacher. Either there is a Christian
God whose moral judgment is somehow clearer than our own and should be
accepted, assuming it will provide a better result than a life of our own
devising, or the religion is simply one of many religious delusions and a
childish self-indulgence that intelligent modern humanity should leave
behind. I don't see a middle ground that withstands rational examination.
Even ER physicians know there is a time to stop trying to resuscitate a
corpse."
Dear Ron,
You raise fascinating and challenging issues for which I am grateful. You
articulate well basic questions that the Church's leadership tends so
often to ignore. Let me respond.
Human beings are responsible for the creation of every doctrine of God,
every creed and every religious system. Since that it true then we should
expect to see our religious ideas be constantly corrupted by the human
need to control and to build power. Truth is always perceived subjectively
which means that truth is perceived differently in every generation. There
may well be objective and eternal truth but no human being possesses it,
no human being can perceive it and no human being can articulate it. The
assumption that one can is the place where destructive religious arrogance
and the sin of idolatry always begin. How one understands reality, the
level of knowledge that one possesses, and the time in which one lives are
always factors in processing what religious people mistakenly call
"Revealed Truth." That is when we make claims such as "our Pope is
infallible," or "our Bible is inerrant," or my religion possesses the only
pathway to God. Most religious systems never escape this mentality since
certainty, even a pretended certainty, seems to bring a much-desired
security to its adherents. However, human history reveals that when a
religious group claims certainty, it also becomes demonic and tries to
kill anyone who disagrees, challenges or threatens their claim to truth.
Your criticism of Christianity seems to be a criticism of what the Church
has done to and with Christians and others over the centuries. I think
that is a valid criticism and one that must be heard.
At the same time, however, we need to recognize that while human beings
certainly create their explanations of God, they do not, I am persuaded,
create the experience of transcendence, the holy, and the Other that we
have come to call God. So while I am willing to challenge any human
explanation of God, I do not think that I can challenge either effectively
or ultimately the reality of the experience of God.
Religious systems grow out of that experience. I live within the Christian
religious system. I walk the Christ path into the mystery and wonder of
God. I make no claim that my path is the only path or that my truth is the
only truth. I regard God alone as Truth and I know that I do not possess
God. I only journey toward God.
When I look at the life of Jesus, I see one who is fully alive, one who is
totally and wastefully loving, one who has the courage and the ability to
be all that he can be. Because I define my experience of God as that
reality in which I find the fullness of life, the totality of love and the
Ground of Being, I have no difficulty saying that in the life of Jesus, I
believe I confront the presence of God. That is why I am committed to
walking the Christ path.
Finally, I take seriously the words that the author of the Fourth Gospel
put into the mouth of Jesus. Attempting to describe his purpose, Jesus is
made to say, "I have come that they may have life and have it abundantly."
If that is a statement of the purpose of Christ then I believe that must
also be the purpose of the Church. That is where I find Christianity's
compelling vision. The task of the Church is to build a world in which
every person has a better chance to live fully, to love wastefully and to
be all that that person has the capability of being. So anything that
diminishes life for anyone, whether on the basis of race, ethnic origin,
gender, sexual orientation or even religion is evil and must be
confronted. Anything that enhances life, increases love and calls others
into being is good and must be encouraged.
It seems so simple to me. My work for justice for gay and lesbian people,
that is the issue that prompted your letter, is not to me tangential to
Christianity. It is rather the very heart of what it means to be a
Christian. I hope this will help to clarify the issue. Thank you for
forcing me to think this through again.
(Spong)
Muffin
self-conscious creatures who live in the dimension of time. We remember
yesterday and anticipate tomorrow.
That means two things. First, fear and anxiety are essential, necessary
and chronic in human life; second, we must embrace our own mortality. Both
of these realities mean that it is the uniquely human thing to search for
security.
A parent God with supernatural power, who can watch over, protect and
defend us, provides that kind of security. So we accept chronic childhood
so as not to lose parental security. We prefer to be born again to growing
up. It is a bad swap - perhaps even a delusional swap.
The religious system that will survive must encourage self-development and
maturity. That means God must be redefined in a non-theistic understanding
as enabling, enhancing and encouraging a new humanity.
Paul Tillich, a 20th century German Lutheran theologian, started us in
this direction. The split in most Christian churches today reveals our
adolescent spirituality. Some of us become fundamentalists who live in the
past and others who cannot be bound by yesterday live in the future.
Both are simply aspects of our journey out of adolescence into the
maturity of wholeness. It will probably take a generation or two to move
fully into the new consciousness, but I think it is inevitable.
Spong
::: vera :::
Thank you, Muffin for this detailed article.
Anyway, our Lord and God must have been born on some day - do you agree?
And do you agree there is a good reason to celebrate this day?
And do you really think that the exact day is of importance? I would not
say that, because like Jesus was the Master of the Sabbath (and thereby
of the law), we are free to celebrate Christmas - the day on which our
Saviour was born - any day. There is the agreement, however, to
celebrate it on December 25th, so all the believers can come together
and worship Him.
Yes, there were many things that were unnatural. :-) God being born in
flesh by a virgin - that is not the norm. Neither was His death... as He
was resurrected. We can live by believing in Him.
::: vera :::
I wrote it because I think you are a party pooper.
JohnH
celebrating a "'christianized' pagan ritual" 4 months early.
Dave
> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
Snip
> >> Huh? Is there another "reality" to "party pooper"
> >> than "party pooper"?
> >
> > Yep, there is. It depends on why you said it.
>
> I wrote it because I think you are a party pooper.
Why?
Dave
Snip
> > >> Huh? Is there another "reality" to "party pooper"
> > >> than "party pooper"?
> > >
> > > Yep, there is. It depends on why you said it.
> >
> > I wrote it because I think you are a party pooper.
> >
> No, you wrote it because you can't rationally explain why
> you're celebrating a "'christianized' pagan ritual" 4 months
> early.
I think it's something like that, too.
::: vera :::
Dear Muffin,
you are confusing me...
Was Jesus Christ born or not now?
And what did Spong have to do with it?
Peace,
::: vera :::
Because you want to poop the Christmas Party.
Dave
I think it's because JohnH is right with what he said elsewhere in the
thread.
Dave
I think it's because JohnH is right with what he said elsewhere in the
thread.
::: vera :::
How kind of you. You must really love him very much to save him from
closer looks elsewhere..
>> I dreamed of you two nights ago, I think. I was swimming then. You
>> could have told me that was you there with the rubber duck and the
>> swimming wings...
>
> I was the one on the solar raft with the diet Pete's Choice, my son
> was the one with the swimming wings and it was probably a dinosaur
> rather than a duck.
Ah, now I can see that! Sorry for mixing the duck up with the raft, and
all the rest.
>> I would have invited you for a cup of coffee and some cake.
>> Whaddayawant? Sugar, milk? Anything?
>>
> I am very picky about my coffee. I only like Wawa coffee that is
> freshly brewed, usually a 24 oz cup with three sugars and a dash of
> either French Vanilla Cappuccino or a shot of Frangelica depending on
> my needs and/or mood. I would have to skip the cake as I had a really
> greasy but very tasty cheesesteak with fried onions and peppers and
> fried onion rings and I washed it down with several frozen
> margarita's over the weekend ....thus I must now give up eating
> anything but carrot sticks until at least Thursday.
Wawa coffee - what is that, please? Is that something for babies? I can
see you have a special taste. I just drink coffee when I drink coffee,
and there is nothing else in but coffee and boiled water. :-) Have you
ever tried that?
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> Speed me up, Scouty. lol
>>>>
>>> If you prefer to powder you nose I can't help you. If you have good
>>> insurance I can point you to a physician that prescribes "weight
>>> loss medications".
>>
>> Great! I could really need some of those. :-D But I think you might
>> not mean what I mean here. You might wish me to lose as much weight
>> until there is nothing left of me.
>
> It doesn't matter to me whether you lose weight or gain it, you asked
> to be speeded up and the easiest way I know of that is legally
> available is available by prescription only. Eventually you will
> return to dust whether you lose weight or not.
My body will, but my sould will remain. :-)
> Did you know that a
> body left on the surface of a woods in Oregan will have have
> completely decomposed (except for the bones which will be scattered
> by animals) in 10 months or less?
Great! :-D
> Now if that same body is thrown in
> a bog it could be perserved for years to come. I just read it in an
> Ann Rule book this week so I thought I would share it with you.
Thank you. Hmm... I do not care much about my body after death. I think
it is a good idea to give parts of it away for others who might need it.
It might save lives.
>> Hey, confess, and you might get special conditions for my future
>> answers to you. If you do not, too. :-D
>>
> What would you like me to confess?
Well, everything, of course!
> How about a general confession?
Great!
> I have done practically everything one shouldn't do except killing
> someone, stealing something, committing a sex crime, driving while
> intoxicated or illegally ingesting a controlled substance. I am not
> aware of any deadly sin on my soul at the present time so it is okay
> to pray for me.
I will pray for you, and I knew already that you did not commit the
deadly sin. And if you did not do any of the above... Hey, what is left?
>> Love ya and your cynical comments. :-x
>>
> I had to look up cynical because I thought the definition had changed.
> Perhaps the word you are looking for is playful.
Oh yes, now I understand, you are playful - how sweet.:-D
::: vera :::
>>>> vera ::: wrote:
>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Snip
>>>
>>>>>> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are
>>>>>> divorced. :-(
>>>>>
>>>>> You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized"
>>>>> pagan ritual, right?
>>>>
>>>> Party Pooper.
>>>
>>> I'll take that as a "yes."
>>
>> Take it as what I wrote. :-)
>
>
> hi vera - then it is only about 4 months until the
> wienachtwurstmiester comes too right?! i never can remember that
> character's name - probably why i get trouble at christmas time eh?
Hi Pablo,
I thought it is highest time to start to make it easier for the
Weihnachtsmann. The Weihnachtsmann is not a Wiehachtswurstmieser,
nonono. But I think he might not notice the slight difference. :-)
> are you in a debate or are some people debating the christmas thing
> again? as if the festivals of the Old Testament didn't coincide
> (strangely) with the common festivals of the seasons practiced by the
> people around the children of israel! which of course, they did -
> only God would not allow them to be practiced for other gods or with
> evil ceremonies - but peculiarly unto himself.
I think it does not matter at all on what a date we celebrate Christmas.
Jesus was born, thát is sure, and no matter when we would celebrate
that, tehre would always be a reson for the party poopers to call it
wrong.
> oh well, i'd never wrangle over that too much - people seem headstrong
> on finding out what's wrong with christianity - why spend such effort
> when there's so much more right about following the risen Christ and
> seeing his sun rise in our hearts.
So true - amen, my friend.
> merry christmas vera - and if you have the time - remind me who the
> weinernachtmunster is - and how to type an umlaut as well.
You mean the Weihnachtsmann, and there is no umlaut in him. LOL But in
his plural there is, so you may have one Weihnachtsmann, and many
Weihnachtsmänner (Weihnachtsmaenner). The Weihnachtsmann story is the
story of Nikolaus, a Roman Catholic saint who lived in Turkey and really
gave presents to poor children by throwing them into the chimneys of the
houses. Dear me, if I have a look at the Turkish people here in Germany,
I must say they do not really look like the Weihnachtsmann, and Turkey
is a Muslim today.
> peace to you and yours - 'tis the season!
> pablo
Thank you - and peace to you and all who you love as well.
Yes, what a season - always!
::: vera :::
You cannot rationally explain why you celebrate at all, party poops.
>>>> I did not know...
>>>
>>> Now you do.
JohnH
::: vera :::
Thank you. :-)
::: vera :::
I do not care what you think, I care about the truth. You are a party
pooper. Period.
Jani
"Dave" <hor...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124994290.5...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Is this a "pagan Christmas" thread? Bit early in the year, isn't it?
Jani
JohnH
> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Snip
> >>>
> >>>>>> Huh? Is there another "reality" to "party pooper"
> >>>>>> than "party pooper"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yep, there is. It depends on why you said it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I wrote it because I think you are a party pooper.
> >>>
> >>> Why?
> >>
> >> Because you want to poop the Christmas Party.
> >
> > I think it's because JohnH is right with what he said elsewhere in the
> > thread.
>
> I do not care what you think, I care about the truth. You are a party
> pooper. Period.
>
"Christmas" [as a word or festival] was not translated into any of our
English Bibles; more importantly, if you really care about the truth,
then you owe it to yourself to trace the historical roots of Christmas,
and to that end, a link follows:
http://www.carm.org/questions/christmas.htm
Dave was trying to point out Christmas' pagan roots [a valid point].
Now, if you knew all this already, then you should have responded back
with that little tidbit, and just added a perfunctory "thank you."
There was no call for you to be so catty and ungracious.
JohnH
el pablo vs the gravamen (sunshine trucker)
> el pablo vs the gravamen (thunder of heaven) <rab...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Snip
> >>>
> >>>>>> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are
> >>>>>> divorced. :-(
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized"
> >>>>> pagan ritual, right?
> >>>>
> >>>> Party Pooper.
> >>>
> >>> I'll take that as a "yes."
> >>
> >> Take it as what I wrote. :-)
> >
> >
> > hi vera - then it is only about 4 months until the
> > wienachtwurstmiester comes too right?! i never can remember that
> > character's name - probably why i get trouble at christmas time eh?
>
> Hi Pablo,
>
> I thought it is highest time to start to make it easier for the
> Weihnachtsmann. The Weihnachtsmann is not a Wiehachtswurstmieser,
> nonono. But I think he might not notice the slight difference. :-)
i don't know ... i think i fear him just a bit :-) so does that mean,
"little night man"? or "the sneaky night man"? his name sounds
alarming!!!!
i certainly wouldn't like to hear it from a doctor's lips, "I am sorry
pablo, you have weihnachtsmann ... there's nothing we can do...."
but, it is high time - anytime is high time to celebrate the birth of
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - and besides i like the songs - i
sing them all year round. i like that, 'oh come let us adore him' song
quite a bit!
>
> > are you in a debate or are some people debating the christmas thing
> > again? as if the festivals of the Old Testament didn't coincide
> > (strangely) with the common festivals of the seasons practiced by the
> > people around the children of israel! which of course, they did -
> > only God would not allow them to be practiced for other gods or with
> > evil ceremonies - but peculiarly unto himself.
>
> I think it does not matter at all on what a date we celebrate Christmas.
> Jesus was born, thát is sure, and no matter when we would celebrate
> that, tehre would always be a reson for the party poopers to call it
> wrong.
i fully agree. i really haven't met anyone who goes around teaching
that Jesus was born on december 25 - it is the day we celebrate his
birth together around the world - a most fitting time of year i always
think too. maybe we'd better start pushing for changing the names of
the days of the week - and the months as well - since i hear they're
pagan in origin.
something called the genetic fallacy i think.
>
> > oh well, i'd never wrangle over that too much - people seem headstrong
> > on finding out what's wrong with christianity - why spend such effort
> > when there's so much more right about following the risen Christ and
> > seeing his sun rise in our hearts.
>
> So true - amen, my friend.
i wonder why i ever allow myself to slip from such a view (as i go
through the days sometimes i do). it's silly to fret or fritter away
our time... something david wrote - like psalm 51 or so - about the
joy of God's salvation.
>
> > merry christmas vera - and if you have the time - remind me who the
> > weinernachtmunster is - and how to type an umlaut as well.
>
> You mean the Weihnachtsmann, and there is no umlaut in him. LOL But in
> his plural there is, so you may have one Weihnachtsmann, and many
> Weihnachtsmänner (Weihnachtsmaenner).
well, it's good i don't know how to type an umlaut - i would have put
it over the u and looked rather foolish.
> The Weihnachtsmann story is the
> story of Nikolaus, a Roman Catholic saint who lived in Turkey and really
> gave presents to poor children by throwing them into the chimneys of the
> houses. Dear me, if I have a look at the Turkish people here in Germany,
> I must say they do not really look like the Weihnachtsmann, and Turkey
> is a Muslim today.
yeah, what is status of the church in turkey - i have been following
their political changes (better and better all the time - though with
freedom comes vices and these appear to be growing there too - i am
certain they were there before - just not as public). does anyone or
group in germany looked like the weihnachtsmann? there i spelled it
without looking.
i feel a little better about him now that i looked a wikipedia in
german:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weihnachtsmann
it seems he comes in chocolate - so he cannot be all bad:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Weihnachtsmann_1.jpg/180px-Weihnachtsmann_1.jpg
>
> > peace to you and yours - 'tis the season!
> > pablo
>
> Thank you - and peace to you and all who you love as well.
>
> Yes, what a season - always!
i need to drop by the website again - i was there last week and got
into reading something from one of your links. cannot remember off the
top of my head which link (away from your site) i followed - but it was
a good read. thanks for keeping that up.
merry christmas!!!
and a happy brand new day to you as well.
peace.
pablo
Dave
> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Snip
> >>>
> >>>>>> Huh? Is there another "reality" to "party pooper"
> >>>>>> than "party pooper"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yep, there is. It depends on why you said it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I wrote it because I think you are a party pooper.
> >>>
> >>> Why?
> >>
> >> Because you want to poop the Christmas Party.
> >
> > I think it's because JohnH is right with what he said
> > elsewhere in the thread.
>
> I do not care what you think, I care about the truth.
No, if you cared about the truth, you'd respond to the point with
something other than "you're a party pooper."
> You are a party pooper. Period.
If you truly cared about the truth, you would be able to discern the
difference between what you believe, what you want represented as
others, and what is true. Whether I am a "party pooper" or not, you'd
want to know.
Dave
Snip
> >> You cannot rationally explain why you celebrate at all,
> >> party poops.
> >>
> >You play "blonde" well.
>
> You see, vera, John H flatly rejects Christ's teaching to
> "encourage one another."
That would explain all of your mean-spirited and hateful commentary to
the likes of Bible John, Bible Bob, and anyone else with whom you
disagree, eh?
> In the place of that teaching, John H has substituted
> "rag on people every chance you get.
>
> Particularly those you find inferior."
He can't help it if there's a lot of you around...
Dave
Snip
> >> > I'll take that as a "yes."
> >>
> >> Take it as what I wrote. :-)
> >
> >If I do that, then I have to wonder if you're one of those
> >that we run into far too often, that is, someone who wants
> >to avoid issues like that and would rather live with something
> >other than reality.
>
> Then there are those who insist on making issues of non-issues.
Yes, but those folks are beside the point.
Did you ever get around to reading Matthew 6?
Dave
Snip
> >> Yep, there is. It depends on why you said it.
> >
> >I wrote it because I think you are a party pooper.
>
> Vera, this is what we Yanks call "pulling your leg",
> that is, Dave is "teasing" you, trying to start an
> argument.
>
> He likes to make issues out of non-starters.
Uh, let me give you some advice, junior: You can't even forward an
intelligent argument of your own. Don't presume to tell me mine. Get
over yourself.
Dave
Snip
> >Party Pooper.
>
> chuckle!
>
> wag of head.
>
> truly!
As usual, the more cowardly among the "elect" choose to snipe from the
sidelines instead of getting in the trenches. Good ol' Weatherly says
to Vera, "let's you and him fight."
Too bad, junior, you're pulled in. Since Vera doesn't seem to have
much to say on the matter, what is your Biblical, historical, or other
justification for the celebration of this Christianized pagan holiday?
Dave
Snip
> >You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized" pagan
> >ritual, right?
In fact, and more accurately, it includes a number of traditions and
practices that are pagan in origin.
> That's an old wive's tale!
Not hardly.
> In fact, Christmas as celebrated today is a more elaborate
> re-creation of the nativity scene right out of the
> Bible.
Which, itself, is derived from earlier, pagan myths.
> Those who point to "pagan origins" are simply those who wish
> to "poo poo" religion in general, Christianity specifically,
> and who don't mind making up imaginary tales of demon rituals
> being handed down.
Okay, fine. What is the historical origin of Christmas, it's
traditions and claims, and what is your evidence for it having origins
in things not pagan?
> Nothing could be further from the truth.
Well, that's not the case, as far as anyone who actually knows a bit of
history can tell you.
> What we DID take from the "pagans", if that, is the DATE we
> celebrate.
And the virgin birth, and the mistletoe, and the tree decorating...
The date derives from the Saturnalia ritual of the Winter Solstice.
> And since no date for the birth of the Christ child is stated
> in the New Testament...
And is very unlikely to be anytime near December, why not "take from
the 'pagans' a more likely date?
> ...we who choose to worship that sacred event had to pick
> a date of our own.
See above.
> Men thousands of years ago-- LITERALLY -- chose a date.
Yes, as derived from the Saturnalia observance.
> We merely use that established date to worship and celebrate.
The question has to do with why that date was picked and how came to be
picked. You're not anywhere near dealing with that.
> And until I was an adult, my family and I went to church
> Christmas Eve to celebrate the event.
Lots of people did and do. What is that supposed to prove?
Jani
> jw wrote:
>
> Snip
>
>> >You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized" pagan
>> >ritual, right?
>
> In fact, and more accurately, it includes a number of traditions and
> practices that are pagan in origin.
>
>> That's an old wive's tale!
>
> Not hardly.
He's right, John. There are quite a few elements in the modern celebration
of Christmas which echo pagan practices. I don't know if it's possible to
prove a *direct* link, though, with many of them. Certainly in Britain,
there's a long gap between the "christmas tree equivalent" of the Norse
peoples, and the introduction of the christmas tree -by Christians - in
Victorian times. And I believe there was also a period when exchanging gifts
wasn't practised, so a broken link there to Saturnalia. However, the tree,
the Yule log, mistletoe, holly, presents, are all among the things which
various pagan cultures used as part of their midwinter rites. I think the
stable, in the form of a cave rather than a building, and the star, come
from the Roman worship of Mithras, but as they were contemporary religions,
it could have been the other way round. IIRC the popular nativity scene,
with shepherds and wise men and so on all around the manger, isn't borne out
by the time scale delineated in the bible.
Jani
JohnH
> x-no-archive: yes
> On 25 Aug 2005 13:10:24 -0700, "JohnH" <johnhe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
> post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
> author
> "rag on people every chance you get.
>
so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
1 Tim. 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ
Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without
bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
[If you want a "touchy-feely" religion...]
>
> Particularly those you find inferior."
>
Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man
sows, this he will also reap.
[...try Tom Cruise's.]
JohnH
>
> jw
::: vera :::
> as we head into fall.
>
> Talking about Christmas at the end of August (right before Labor Day)
> is HARDLY "celebrating."
They really think we are celebrating Christmas under the Christmas tree
now. WOW - look at the presents! Just have a look there!!! :-) Christmas
is such a good time. :-)
> She is simply being silly.
YES! Born to be silly. LOL
> You should know all about being silly, as
> you are one of the silliest people in here.
>
>
> I for one think the group could use some more levity.
>
> Thanks, vera!
>
> "You go, girl!"
>
> jw
You cracked me up, John! :-DDD
Thanks!
They will use anything against you, even if you mention Christmas in
August. ROTFL
Thanks for the laugh - I needed that. :-)
Love ya, brother.
::: vera :::
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:50:28 +0200, "::: vera :::"
> <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
> copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
> post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
> author
>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
>>>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Snip
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are
>>>>>>>>>> divorced. :-(
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized"
>>>>>>>>> pagan ritual, right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Party Pooper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll take that as a "yes."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take it as what I wrote. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> If I do that, then I have to wonder if you're one of those
>>>>> that we run into far too often, that is, someone who wants
>>>>> to avoid issues like that and would rather live with something
>>>>> other than reality.
>>>>
>>>> Huh? Is there another "reality" to "party pooper" than "party
>>>> pooper"?
>>>
>>> Yep, there is. It depends on why you said it.
>>
>> I wrote it because I think you are a party pooper.
>
> "teasing" you, trying to start an argument.
>
> He likes to make issues out of non-starters.
>
>
> God bless!
>
> jw
Thank you for the warning. I know. :-)
He is a party pooper. :-D
>>>> I did not know...
>>>
>>> Now you do.
Peace,
::: vera :::
Hey, and what is your justification to poop our party?
JohnH
jw wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
> On 23 Aug 2005 20:59:38 -0700, "Dave" <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
> post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
> author
> >> Scout Lady <scou...@nospam.net> wrote:
> >
> >Snip
> >
> >> >> Where is Barbie, where is Ken?
> >> >>
> >> > Perhaps you didn't hear. Barbie and Ken divorced and that
> >> > is why Ken doesn't have a house, car or boat. Barbie
> >> > prefered Big Jim (after all he had that really big camper) and
> >> > Ken married the Green Ranger.
> >>
> >> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are divorced. :-(
> >
> >You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized" pagan ritual, right?
>
> a more elaborate re-creation of the nativity scene right out of the
> Bible.
>
> poo" religion in general, Christianity specifically, and who don't
> mind making up imaginary tales of demon rituals being handed down.
>
>
>
> a date of our own.
>
>
> until I was an adult, my family and I went to church Christmas Eve to
> celebrate the event.
>
JohnH
>
> jw
::: vera :::
> jw wrote:
>
> Snip
>
>>> You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized" pagan
>>> ritual, right?
>
> In fact, and more accurately, it includes a number of traditions and
> practices that are pagan in origin.
Everyday I eat bread. Pagan in origin maybe, but I would not care, just
imagine!
But I am not really a tradition worshipper. I am in fact no religious
person. I do not pray to Saints. My faith is all based on my personal
relationship to God. If you think this has pagan roots... I would not
care at all. In the end, it is up to God when to reveal Himself, and to
whom. That is all in His hands.
>> That's an old wive's tale!
>
> Not hardly.
>
>> In fact, Christmas as celebrated today is a more elaborate
>> re-creation of the nativity scene right out of the
>> Bible.
>
> Which, itself, is derived from earlier, pagan myths.
Dave, if you continue the way you do, you will not get any Christmas
presents this year.
>> Those who point to "pagan origins" are simply those who wish
>> to "poo poo" religion in general, Christianity specifically,
>> and who don't mind making up imaginary tales of demon rituals
>> being handed down.
>
> Okay, fine. What is the historical origin of Christmas, it's
> traditions and claims, and what is your evidence for it having origins
> in things not pagan?
The origin of Christmas is Jesus Christ, the Lord and Saviour and God
who was born by a virgin then. Christians celebrate this worldwide on
December 25th every year. :-)
But you can celebrate your Pagan pooper party anytime, too - I really
wish you well with that. :-) Somehow the Pagans have not managed to come
together for a party like the Christians. And what would there be to
celebrate, anyway? To be lost without God has not really been a reason
to celebrate, right? Why do you not do it?
>> Nothing could be further from the truth.
>
> Well, that's not the case, as far as anyone who actually knows a bit
> of history can tell you.
God is the one who has written history already. You can find it in His
book - and then have a look at Israel nowadays, and you might find the
truth in it. It is a truth that goes above normal history books. It is
prophecy.
>> What we DID take from the "pagans", if that, is the DATE we
>> celebrate.
>
> And the virgin birth, and the mistletoe, and the tree decorating...
I love the Christmas tree. It is beautiful, and I remember my first
experiences as a child. The presents were good, but when I saw the tree,
I saw the beauty of God then - with the eyes of a child.
Maybe you have lost this ability - I could save it - praise the Lord.
It is not the tree or its origins, but it is the Spirit that makes it
shine for me in a light that comes from God. It is an inner event, you
see. The sight of a real Christmas tree can make hearts melt. Wherever
this happens, people are close to God. Even Pagans can experience that.
:-)
> The date derives from the Saturnalia ritual of the Winter Solstice.
Oh, really?
>> And since no date for the birth of the Christ child is stated
>> in the New Testament...
>
> And is very unlikely to be anytime near December, why not "take from
> the 'pagans' a more likely date?
Are those 365 days in a year reserved for Pagans? I did not know about
that. What have you to do with Christian celebrations at all? Do you
mind the date of Ramadan as well?
>> ...we who choose to worship that sacred event had to pick
>> a date of our own.
>
> See above.
>
>> Men thousands of years ago-- LITERALLY -- chose a date.
>
> Yes, as derived from the Saturnalia observance.
Christians only worship God, represented by Jesus Christ, and we do not
care about other people's feasts. They have no relevance for us at all,
but we respect it if people want to celebrate their special holidays, of
course. So I do not mind if you celebrate on Christmas, though you are
no Christian. Indeed, I would love to invite you to come to our party
and celebrate with us as a guest. So feel invited to come. You are
welcome, but leave your poops at home, please.
>> We merely use that established date to worship and celebrate.
>
> The question has to do with why that date was picked and how came to
> be picked. You're not anywhere near dealing with that.
Why should he? It is your problem, not his. I cannot really follow why
you are having this problem, but it might be taken from a list of
arguments of how to deal with Christians...
But you should try to understand that you cannot explain a Spiritual
matter other than on the level of Spiritual thinking.
I also cannot see your point you want to make here.
>> And until I was an adult, my family and I went to church
>> Christmas Eve to celebrate the event.
>
> Lots of people did and do. What is that supposed to prove?
That there are people who are no party poopers. :-)
So get over yourself and come and celebrate with us.
JohnH
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:51:48 +0200, "::: vera :::"
> <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
> copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
> post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
> author
> >>>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >>>>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Snip
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> divorced. :-(
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> pagan ritual, right?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'll take that as a "yes."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Take it as what I wrote. :-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If I do that, then I have to wonder if you're one of those
> >>>>>> that we run into far too often, that is, someone who wants
> >>>>>> to avoid issues like that and would rather live with something
> >>>>>> other than reality.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Huh? Is there another "reality" to "party pooper" than "party
> >>>>> pooper"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Yep, there is. It depends on why you said it.
> >>>
> >>> I wrote it because I think you are a party pooper.
> >>>
> >> celebrating a "'christianized' pagan ritual" 4 months early.
> >
>
>
> chuckle.
>
With you being so loose, however, you more than just make up for it.
Double-chuckle.
JohnH
>
> jw
>
> >
> >>>>> I did not know...
> >>>>
> >>>> Now you do.
> >
> >
Dave
> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > jw wrote:
> >
> > Snip
> >
> >>> Party Pooper.
> >>
> >> chuckle!
> >>
> >> wag of head.
> >>
> >> truly!
> >
> > As usual, the more cowardly among the "elect" choose to
> > snipe from the sidelines instead of getting in the trenches.
> > Good ol' Weatherly says to Vera, "let's you and him fight."
> >
> > Too bad, junior, you're pulled in. Since Vera doesn't seem
> > to have much to say on the matter, what is your Biblical,
> > historical, or other justification for the celebration of
> > this Christianized pagan holiday?
>
> Hey, and what is your justification to poop our party?
It seems to me that all I did was ask if you knew the pagan origins of
your "party." Do you?
I suppose, if I have any justification, at all, it's truth.
galia
"JohnH" <johnhe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125065169.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
<Triple-chuckle>
Dave
> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > jw wrote:
> >
> > Snip
> >
> >>> You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized"
> >>> pagan ritual, right?
> >
> > In fact, and more accurately, it includes a number of
> > traditions and practices that are pagan in origin.
>
> Everyday I eat bread. Pagan in origin maybe, but I would not
> care, just imagine!
You're only digging yourself a deeper, hole, but let's just run with
this one, for now.
Do you worship the bread? Do you celebrate it as an omniscient,
omnipresent being? Or does it just serve a purpose for your physical
well-being, with no more significance than that?
> But I am not really a tradition worshipper. I am in fact no
> religious person.
Of course you are.
> I do not pray to Saints. My faith is all based on my personal
> relationship to God.
That's interesting, because those who "pray to Saints" would say the
same thing. Your faith is a religion and it is based on your belief in
a "personal relationship with God," a relationship that is decidely
one-sided.
> If you think this has pagan roots... I would not care at
> all. In the end, it is up to God when to reveal Himself,
> and to whom. That is all in His hands.
The problem is that you believe he's done that--with no good cause, I
might add.
> >> That's an old wive's tale!
> >
> > Not hardly.
> >
> >> In fact, Christmas as celebrated today is a more
> >> elaborate re-creation of the nativity scene right
> >> out of the Bible.
> >
> > Which, itself, is derived from earlier, pagan myths.
>
> Dave, if you continue the way you do, you will not get
> any Christmas presents this year.
Boo, hoo.
> >> Those who point to "pagan origins" are simply those
> >> who wish to "poo poo" religion in general, Christianity
> >> specifically, and who don't mind making up imaginary
> >> tales of demon rituals being handed down.
> >
> > Okay, fine. What is the historical origin of Christmas,
> > it's traditions and claims, and what is your evidence for
> > it having origins in things not pagan?
>
> The origin of Christmas is Jesus Christ, the Lord and Saviour
> and God who was born by a virgin then. Christians celebrate
> this worldwide on December 25th every year. :-)
In fact, lots of Christians, recognizing the pagan origins, do not
celebrate Christmas.
> But you can celebrate your Pagan pooper party anytime,
> too...
I'm not a pagan. Where did you get that idea?
> ...I really wish you well with that. :-) Somehow the Pagans
> have not managed to come together for a party like the
> Christians.
Oh, they did, at one time. Paganism has fallen a bit by the wayside in
the last couple of millenia. Christianity will, as well.
> And what would there be to celebrate, anyway?
If you knew the history, you'd know the answer to that, already. Have
you bothered to research it...at all?
> To be lost without God has not really been a reason
> to celebrate, right? Why do you not do it?
I don't view myself as "lost without God." Look up "loaded question."
> >> Nothing could be further from the truth.
> >
> > Well, that's not the case, as far as anyone who actually
> > knows a bit of history can tell you.
>
> God is the one who has written history already.
Well, I full well know that if I ask, you'll tell me something about
the Bible, and I am aware of the claims regarding it, already. The
fact is that you have only faith to tell you that.
> You can find it in His book...
God is unpublished, as far as know.
> ...and then have a look at Israel nowadays, and you might
> find the truth in it.
Having a German tell a Jew to "look at Israel" carries with it a couple
of ironies, don't you think?
> It is a truth that goes above normal history books. It is
> prophecy.
It is nonsense.
> >> What we DID take from the "pagans", if that, is the
> >> DATE we celebrate.
> >
> > And the virgin birth, and the mistletoe, and the tree
> > decorating...
>
> I love the Christmas tree.
Pagan origins.
> It is beautiful, and I remember my first experiences as a
> child. The presents were good, but when I saw the tree,
> I saw the beauty of God then - with the eyes of a child.
Children are easily fooled by pretty things and lofty, fanciful claim
about gods and angels and fairies and vampires and so on and so on...
> Maybe you have lost this ability - I could save it...
I find considerable beauty in the Universe and while I have no problem
attributing it to God, I find no need to compromise my intellectual
scruples in doing so, and I am able to avoid hypocrisy.
> - praise the Lord.
>
> It is not the tree or its origins, but it is the Spirit that
> makes it shine for me in a light that comes from God. It is
> an inner event, you see. The sight of a real Christmas tree
> can make hearts melt.
Regardless of the conditioning of people to Christmas trees over the
millenia, their origins lie in paganism. You have no problem with
that, I take it?
That's really all you're being asked, all speech-making aside.
> Wherever this happens, people are close to God. Even
> Pagans can experience that.
> :-)
Were pagans experiencing it before Christians?
> > The date derives from the Saturnalia ritual of the Winter
> > Solstice.
>
> Oh, really?
Really, as well as the birthdate of Mithra.
> >> And since no date for the birth of the Christ child is
> >> stated in the New Testament...
> >
> > And is very unlikely to be anytime near December, why not
> > "take from the 'pagans' a more likely date?
>
> Are those 365 days in a year reserved for Pagans?
_Non sequitur_. The question has to do with the date selected, if the
date was not ripped off from the pagans Winter Solstice observance. If
the birth date of Christ were to be determined based on Scripture, it
certainly could not be in December, yet it's "celebrated" and observed
in December. I understand that the exact date isn't know. But why
pick December 25th, if it wasn't out of expedience?
> I did not know about that. What have you to do with Christian
> celebrations at all?
Not a thing. I simply asked about yours. Let's face it: You brought
it up.
> Do you mind the date of Ramadan as well?
Nope, and I have no qualms about Christmas, per se, though it does
reveal a bit about the origins of Christianity. If you are aware of
any pagan origin to Ramadan, cite it. Otherwise, your reference to it
is irrelevant under the circumstances.
> >> ...we who choose to worship that sacred event had to pick
> >> a date of our own.
> >
> > See above.
> >
> >> Men thousands of years ago-- LITERALLY -- chose a date.
> >
> > Yes, as derived from the Saturnalia observance.
>
> Christians only worship God, represented by Jesus Christ...
Actually, you worship yourselves, and use Jesus as a proxy.
> ...and we do not care about other people's feasts. They
> have no relevance for us at all...
Kinda sounds like the guy who picks a pocket and takes the money. It's
that person's money, now, but he's no less a thief.
> ...but we respect it if people want to celebrate their special
> holidays, of course. So I do not mind if you celebrate on
> Christmas...
I didn't ask.
> ...though you are no Christian.
Right. So why would I celebrate Christmas? I find the whole thing
unseemly both as a religious holiday and a commercial one.
> Indeed, I would love to invite you to come to our party
> and celebrate with us as a guest. So feel invited to come.
> You are welcome, but leave your poops at home, please.
You do have running water and plumbing in Germany, right?
> >> We merely use that established date to worship and celebrate.
> >
> > The question has to do with why that date was picked and
> > how came to be picked. You're not anywhere near dealing with that.
>
> Why should he?
By responding, he presumed to.
> It is your problem, not his.
Uh, no. It's not my problem.
> I cannot really follow why you are having this problem...
Christians are celebrating a pagan holiday through a series of pagan
rituals and symbols. That doesn't bother you?
> ...but it might be taken from a list of
> arguments of how to deal with Christians...
>
> But you should try to understand that you cannot explain a
> Spiritual matter other than on the level of Spiritual
> thinking.
Ah, a variation of the old "you aren't one of us, so you don't
understand." Get over yourself, Dear. You're not that deep.
> I also cannot see your point you want to make here.
See above.
> >> And until I was an adult, my family and I went to church
> >> Christmas Eve to celebrate the event.
> >
> > Lots of people did and do. What is that supposed to prove?
>
> That there are people who are no party poopers. :-)
Life sucks. Get a helmet.
> So get over yourself and come and celebrate with us.
Oh, I'm way over myself. I don't presume that people should believe my
religious beliefs and, if they don't, I don't think they'll go to Hell.
::: vera :::
>>>> vera ::: wrote:
>> el pablo vs the gravamen (thunder of heaven) <rab...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
>>>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are
>>>>>>>> divorced. :-(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pagan ritual, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll take that as a "yes."
>>>>
>>>> Take it as what I wrote. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> wienachtwurstmiester comes too right?! i never can remember that
>>> character's name - probably why i get trouble at christmas time eh?
>>
>> Hi Pablo,
>>
>> I thought it is highest time to start to make it easier for the
>> Weihnachtsmann. The Weihnachtsmann is not a Wiehachtswurstmieser,
>> nonono. But I think he might not notice the slight difference. :-)
>
> i don't know ... i think i fear him just a bit :-) so does that mean,
> "little night man"? or "the sneaky night man"? his name sounds
> alarming!!!!
Dear Pablo,
you do not have to fear the Weihnachtsmann! The word comes from
Weihnachten - this means "Christmas", and the word "Mann" which means
"man". The word "Weihnachten" comes from "weihen" - and that is "to
dedicate", and the word "Nacht", which is "night", of course. So you
could say a "Weihnachtsmann" is a man of the dedicated night. LOL
> i certainly wouldn't like to hear it from a doctor's lips, "I am sorry
> pablo, you have weihnachtsmann ... there's nothing we can do...."
Dear me - that would be shocking news!
> but, it is high time - anytime is high time to celebrate the birth of
> our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - and besides i like the songs - i
> sing them all year round. i like that, 'oh come let us adore him'
> song quite a bit!
Yes, I think we cannot start early enough. :-)
There are all the Spekulatius in the shop windows already, and the
Dominosteine and Weihnachtsmänner.
Is it not great that God came down to earth to live with us? I owe Him
everything.
>>> are you in a debate or are some people debating the christmas thing
>>> again? as if the festivals of the Old Testament didn't coincide
>>> (strangely) with the common festivals of the seasons practiced by
>>> the people around the children of israel! which of course, they
>>> did - only God would not allow them to be practiced for other gods
>>> or with evil ceremonies - but peculiarly unto himself.
>>
>> I think it does not matter at all on what a date we celebrate
>> Christmas. Jesus was born, thát is sure, and no matter when we would
>> celebrate that, tehre would always be a reson for the party poopers
>> to call it wrong.
>
> i fully agree. i really haven't met anyone who goes around teaching
> that Jesus was born on december 25 - it is the day we celebrate his
> birth together around the world - a most fitting time of year i always
> think too. maybe we'd better start pushing for changing the names of
> the days of the week - and the months as well - since i hear they're
> pagan in origin.
>
> something called the genetic fallacy i think.
You are right, brother. I also love that time of the year. All the
lights and cosy places... Warming up in a cold world.
>>> oh well, i'd never wrangle over that too much - people seem
>>> headstrong on finding out what's wrong with christianity - why
>>> spend such effort when there's so much more right about following
>>> the risen Christ and seeing his sun rise in our hearts.
>>
>> So true - amen, my friend.
>
> i wonder why i ever allow myself to slip from such a view (as i go
> through the days sometimes i do). it's silly to fret or fritter away
> our time... something david wrote - like psalm 51 or so - about the
> joy of God's salvation.
Oh yes, it is beautiful. I would like to sing with David - especially
these verses:
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from Your presence, and take not Your Holy Spirit from
me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, and uphold me with a
willing spirit. (Psalms 51:10-12 MKJV)
>>> merry christmas vera - and if you have the time - remind me who the
>>> weinernachtmunster is - and how to type an umlaut as well.
>>
>> You mean the Weihnachtsmann, and there is no umlaut in him. LOL But
>> in his plural there is, so you may have one Weihnachtsmann, and many
>> Weihnachtsmänner (Weihnachtsmaenner).
>
> well, it's good i don't know how to type an umlaut - i would have put
> it over the u and looked rather foolish.
Ha! There are three umlauts in German, the ä, the ö and the ü. It is
written with two dots above the a, o and u, but you can also write ae,
oe or ue instead if you have no umlauts on the keyboards. The Turks have
even more funny letters. And just have a look at Chinese. LOL
>> The Weihnachtsmann story is the
>> story of Nikolaus, a Roman Catholic saint who lived in Turkey and
>> really gave presents to poor children by throwing them into the
>> chimneys of the houses. Dear me, if I have a look at the Turkish
>> people here in Germany, I must say they do not really look like the
>> Weihnachtsmann, and Turkey is a Muslim today.
>
> yeah, what is status of the church in turkey - i have been following
> their political changes (better and better all the time - though with
> freedom comes vices and these appear to be growing there too - i am
> certain they were there before - just not as public). does anyone or
> group in germany looked like the weihnachtsmann? there i spelled it
> without looking.
WOW - I see you can do it. :-D
Oh, I think all men here look a little like the Weihnachtsmann. LOL
>
> i feel a little better about him now that i looked a wikipedia in
> german:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weihnachtsmann
Hey, great link! :-)
> it seems he comes in chocolate - so he cannot be all bad:
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Weihnachtsmann_1.jpg/180px-Weihnachtsmann_1.jpg
Yes, indeed, there are millions of them. LOL
But you in American have your Santa Claus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus
Does he come in chocolate, too? I think he has a different beard...
Maybe he is from Alaska?
>>> peace to you and yours - 'tis the season!
>>> pablo
>>
>> Thank you - and peace to you and all who you love as well.
>>
>> Yes, what a season - always!
>
> i need to drop by the website again - i was there last week and got
> into reading something from one of your links. cannot remember off
> the
> top of my head which link (away from your site) i followed - but it
> was
> a good read. thanks for keeping that up.
I am glad you could find something there. :-) It has more and more
become a site with links to special topics. There is so much work to be
done - I really must learn not to be kept back by usenet wars too much
and spend much more time there. It really might help people, or it might
even help them find God.
> merry christmas!!!
Merry Christmas, Pablo!!!!!
> and a happy brand new day to you as well.
And to you and all who you love a wonderful Sunday tomorrow. :-)
> peace.
> pablo
Peace to you, too,
~ vera ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de ~
~ http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm ~
~ http://www.e-sword.net ~
::: vera :::
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:32:51 +0200, "::: vera :::"
> <ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
> copyright 2005 John Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this
> post can be reproduced ANYWHERE else w/o expressed written consent of
> author
>> wrote:
>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> vera ::: wrote:
>>>>>> Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Snip
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, I am sorry to read that. I did not know they are
>>>>>>>> divorced. :-(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized"
>>>>>>> pagan ritual, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Party Pooper.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll take that as a "yes."
>>>>
>>>> Take it as what I wrote. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> hi vera - then it is only about 4 months until the
>>> wienachtwurstmiester comes too right?! i never can remember that
>>> character's name - probably why i get trouble at christmas time eh?
>>
>> Hi Pablo,
>>
>> I thought it is highest time to start to make it easier for the
>> Weihnachtsmann. The Weihnachtsmann is not a Wiehachtswurstmieser,
>> nonono. But I think he might not notice the slight difference. :-)
>>
>>> again? as if the festivals of the Old Testament didn't coincide
>>> (strangely) with the common festivals of the seasons practiced by
>>> the people around the children of israel! which of course, they
>>> did - only God would not allow them to be practiced for other gods
>>> or with evil ceremonies - but peculiarly unto himself.
>>
>> I think it does not matter at all on what a date we celebrate
>> celebrate that, tehre would always be a reson for the party poopers
>> to call it wrong.
>>
>>> headstrong on finding out what's wrong with christianity - why
>>> spend such effort when there's so much more right about following
>>> the risen Christ and seeing his sun rise in our hearts.
>>
>> So true - amen, my friend.
>>
>>> weinernachtmunster is - and how to type an umlaut as well.
>>
>> You mean the Weihnachtsmann, and there is no umlaut in him. LOL But
>> in his plural there is, so you may have one Weihnachtsmann, and many
>> story of Nikolaus, a Roman Catholic saint who lived in Turkey and
>> really gave presents to poor children by throwing them into the
>> chimneys of the houses. Dear me, if I have a look at the Turkish
>> people here in Germany, I must say they do not really look like the
>> Weihnachtsmann, and Turkey is a Muslim today.
>
>
> I have been in Turkey, during my military tour in the 60s! And the
> church Paul built in Ephesus (called "Efes" in their time/language),
> is there today, bearing the 1st C AD date on its cornerstone.
Really? That is great news! I did not know that. Maybe I can find a
link in the internet... wait... There is something about Ephesus:
http://www.ourfatherlutheran.net/biblehomelands/paul's%203rd/paul3rd-2/paul3rd-2txt.htm
> The Muslims may be predominate, but since they are a STRONG US ally,
> the church is free to worship openly there, and the church at Ephesus
> is going strong!
That is great!
> I've encountered two Turkish people (a Christian man and a Muslim
> woman) who know the church in my travels, and I know several people in
> my building who have been to the church.
>
> My next door neighbor says she's a neighbor of a nearby town (I forget
> which), and she's been to / past the church numerous times.
>
>
> Praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord!
> jw
>
>>
>>> peace to you and yours - 'tis the season!
>>> pablo
>>
>> Thank you - and peace to you and all who you love as well.
>>
>> Yes, what a season - always!
>>
roger_...@yahoo.co.uk
> ::: vera ::: wrote:
> > Dave <hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > jw wrote:
> > >
> > > Snip
> > >
> > >>> You *did* know that Christmas is a "christianized"
> > >>> pagan ritual, right?
I don't know this, and I doubt you do either. By all means demonstrate
this.
To the best of my knowledge, the origins of the celebration of
Christmas are quite obscure.
> > >> In fact, Christmas as celebrated today is a more
> > >> elaborate re-creation of the nativity scene right
> > >> out of the Bible.
> > >
> > > Which, itself, is derived from earlier, pagan myths.
> >
> > Dave, if you continue the way you do, you will not get
> > any Christmas presents this year.
>
> Boo, hoo.
Do you have anything to offer for your religious position? Or can you
merely jeer stale old lies and half-truths which only insult those of
others?
> I'm not a pagan. Where did you get that idea?
Why are you afraid to discuss your religious-philosophical position?
Because you merely live in conformity to some subset of societal
values?
> > And what would there be to celebrate, anyway?
>
> If you knew the history, you'd know the answer to that, already. Have
> you bothered to research it...at all?
You seem incredibly ignorant, but very arrogant with it. May I suggest
you (a) acquire an education and (b) acquire some modesty about the
extent of it.
> > To be lost without God has not really been a reason
> > to celebrate, right? Why do you not do it?
>
> I don't view myself as "lost without God." Look up "loaded question."
Still more evasion. You're willing to sneer, but afraid to put your
cards on the table. How interesting!
> Children are easily fooled by pretty things and lofty, fanciful claim
> about gods and angels and fairies and vampires and so on and so on...
Not half as easily as the enemies of Christianity. Most of them will
believe any old tosh.
> I find considerable beauty in the Universe and while I have no problem
> attributing it to God, I find no need to compromise my intellectual
> scruples in doing so, and I am able to avoid hypocrisy.
Not on the evidence of this post. You haven't demonstrated any
intellectual ability whatever, and your sneers at others, while evading
the issue of your own position, actually convict you of hypocrisy (a
point I would not make, were you not actually boasting of it).
> Regardless of the conditioning of people to Christmas trees over the
> millenia, their origins lie in paganism. You have no problem with
> that, I take it?
This is yet another half-truth. Do you have some issue with telling
the truth?
> > > The date derives from the Saturnalia ritual of the Winter
> > > Solstice.
> >
> > Oh, really?
>
> Really, as well as the birthdate of Mithra.
Produce ancient testimony to this effect, or apologise for stating a
unchecked lie as fact. (There is no such evidence, of course).
I imagine, if you're as dishonest as I suspect you are, that you'll
bluster.
> > I did not know about that. What have you to do with Christian
> > celebrations at all?
>
> Not a thing. I simply asked about yours. Let's face it: You brought
> it up.
Still more evasions...
[abuse and jeering snipped]
> > So get over yourself and come and celebrate with us.
>
> Oh, I'm way over myself.
Not on the evidence of the above, which consists of a load of
impertinent, intellectually disreputable, nonsense.
> I don't presume that people should believe my religious beliefs
Then why are you abusing those of others? Or will you try to evade it
with some sort of 'they started it' excuse?
All the best,
Roger Pearse
Uriah the Hittite
"34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take
thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil
thereof. "
Matt 6.
JohnH
>
> > You should know all about being silly, as
> > you are one of the silliest people in here.
> >
> >
> > I for one think the group could use some more levity.
> >
> > Thanks, vera!
> >
> > "You go, girl!"
> >
> > jw
>
> You cracked me up, John! :-DDD
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> They will use anything against you, even if you mention Christmas in
> August. ROTFL
>
your festivities back in January, huh?
>
> Thanks for the laugh - I needed that. :-)
>
Vera and Weatherly."
::: vera :::
Mickey Mouse, the Peanuts, ... Donald Duck...
Hey, you do not know much, do you? You have forgotten the main heros...
I like Goofey best, by the way. :-P
>>
>>> You should know all about being silly, as
>>> you are one of the silliest people in here.
>>>
>>>
>>> I for one think the group could use some more levity.
>>>
>>> Thanks, vera!
>>>
>>> "You go, girl!"
>>>
>>> jw
>>
>> You cracked me up, John! :-DDD
>>
> Everyone knows that misery loves company.
Misery? Oh!
>> Thanks!
>>
>> They will use anything against you, even if you mention Christmas in
>> August. ROTFL
>>
> Yeah, why always get off to such a late start when you could have
> begun your festivities back in January, huh?
But that was the time to prepare myself for Easter. . . .
>> Thanks for the laugh - I needed that. :-)
>>
> As does everyone else, who continues to watch "The Nutty Adventures of
> Vera and Weatherly."
You are such a sweetheart. :-)
>> Love ya, brother.
>>
>> ::: vera :::
>> ____________________________________________________
>> ::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
>> ::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
>> ::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
>>
>>>>>>> I did not know...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now you do.
Peace,
Grouchmuncher
The Grouch :)
ujb
And that would be spelt weatherly I presume?
ujibwa
>
Doc Watson
the following funny stuff in this here little old new 'froup:
>>
>>
>You're not hinting for what you want for Christmas now are you ?!
>The Grouch :)
Yo, Grouch - how are ya?
-------------------------------------------------------
JESUS IS THE ROCK
God doesn't call the qualified; He qualifies the called
-------------------------------------------------------
Muffin
<jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
>
>
> That's an old wive's tale! In fact, Christmas as celebrated today is
> a more elaborate re-creation of the nativity scene right out of the
> Bible.
>
> Those who point to "pagan origins" are simply those who wish to "poo
> poo" religion in general, Christianity specifically, and who don't
> mind making up imaginary tales of demon rituals being handed down.
>
> Nothing could be further from the truth.
>
> What we DID take from the "pagans", if that, is the DATE we celebrate.
>
> And since no date for the birth of the Christ child is stated in the
> New Testament, we who choose to worship that sacred event had to pick
> a date of our own.
>
> Men thousands of years ago-- LITERALLY -- chose a date.
>
> We merely use that established date to worship and celebrate. And
> until I was an adult, my family and I went to church Christmas Eve to
> celebrate the event.
>
> jw
Sorry NO
In fact the entire structure of Christian belief seems directly derived
from Roman Mystery religion and from the Judaic concept of Atonement
The Virgin Birth is an element taken from Egyptian religion - as is the
"dying and resurrecting God" Indeed it is even arguable that the concept
of Atonement (died for our sins) is equally derived from Greek relision as
from Judaism
The concept son of God is taken directly out of the manner in which the
later Augustan State (Rome) was stabilised through the deification of
Julius Caesar - which made the emperor Augustus (through his adoption)
identifiable as the "Son of God". He too was later deified and all
members of the Julian-Augustan dynasty were regarded as "sons of God".
Caligula was particulary fond of being identified that way.
The "slaughter of the innocents" is the reuse of the Judaic image of the
slaughter of the innocents that preceeded the Birth of Moses, in the Book
of Exodus. The shepherds and wise men (three is a significant number)
appear in the Roman mysteries - as - in fact - does the stable.
Christianity is an eclectic assembly of existing religious elements tacked
on to what may well have been a genuine historical figure. It's only
attestations of the reality of its history come from itself. What is
somewhat disturbing is that as Christianity gained in power it began to
expunge the records. Hundreds of thousands of volumes were thrown by
Christian fanatics into the flames in the worst acts of cultural vandalism
the world knew until the time of the Nazis
Outside of fundamentalist and catholic circles the fictional nature of the
Nativity story has been accepted for over forty years. America is way
behind Europe and australia and New Zealand in this. Non acceptance of
the Nativity story as anything other than myth has long been accepted
within the Anglican Commune for example:
QUOTE
" The debate that centered on Jesus' origins and the Christian claim that
he was holy and of the Spirit, was thus now joined with this suggestion in
the epistle to the Hebrews that the ideal high priest, Melchizedek, after
whom Jesus was modeled, had no human origins. The stage was thus set for
the story of Jesus' miraculous birth to enter the tradition, and enter it
did.
It came first in the work of Matthew, the most Jewish of the gospel
writers. This author would use a miraculous birth story to counter the
charges of Jesus' base birth that were abroad in conservative Jewish
circles. He would demonstrate that those who called Jesus "the son of
Mary," as if he were one whose paternity was in question, simply did not
understand his origins. He would reject their charge that he was of
Beelzebub by asserting that he was born at the initiation of the Holy
Spirit. He would place that truth into a literal narrative that would
support the words of Jesus that anyone who thought that his origins were
base was in fact guilty of the unforgivable sin of blaspheming against the
Holy Spirit.
So the story of the virgin birth, with its affirmation of paternity by the
Holy Spirit, took shape in Matthew's mind, and "the carpenter, the son of
Mary" in Mark (6:3) became "the carpenter's son whose mother is called
Mary" in Matthew (I3:55) But, as a Jewish scribe, Matthew had to be true
to his scribal training. He needed to ground that assertion in the
scriptures of his people. So Matthew, searching the sacred story of the
Hebrew people to find a text on which he could develop his story of Jesus'
holy origins, fastened on to a verse in the Greek translation of the Book
of Isaiah (7:I4). "Behold a virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a
son and you shall call his name Emmanuel, which means 'God is with us.'"
And so it was that the virgin entered the Christian story. It did not
matter to Matthew that the word "virgin" was not in the original Hebrew
text. It did not matter that the historic context in which the words of
Isaiah were written was the siege of Jerusalem by the Syrians and the army
of the Northern Kingdom in the eighth century B.C.E. It did not matter
that the child in Isaiah who was to be born to this woman was to be a
divine sign that Jerusalem would survive that particular siege and the
life of the nation would go on, as indeed it did.
Matthew's task was to demonstrate to the critics of this Jesus who were
attacking his origins that they were so deeply in error that they were in
danger of placing themselves into a status beyond the possibility of
forgiveness. They were guilty of calling that which was of the Holy Spirit
evil. They had actually confused God with Satan. It was a powerful
assertion and a provocative story. But few people through the centuries
were to recognize that the origin of what came to be known as the
Christmas story was born as a polemic against those most conservative
factions of Jerusalem Jewry who sought to diminish Jesus' influence among
the more open Jews by asserting that he was base-born, illegitimate, of
the devil himself.
Luke developed the story without once referring to Matthew's exceedingly
problematic virgin text. Luke's added witness served to solidify this
tradition of a divine origin for Jesus, and so this tradition began its
journey through history. On that journey the story of Jesus' birth, as we
have noted, picked up other legends, fantasies, mythologies, and folklore
of the centuries and carried them along with it.
Before closing this chronicle, it is important to recognize that the
virgin birth tradition suffered a momentary eclipse when the Fourth Gospel
appeared in the tenth decade. Perhaps this author saw that the birth story
had already been literalized, and he did not want its essential truth lost
in such nonsensical literal images. As we noted earlier, this gospel
portrayed Jesus quite simply as the child of Joseph and Mary, but the
theme of being born in and of the Spirit was not lost by this writer.
For John, Jesus had been born on two levels. He was born not just of the
will of the flesh, but also of the Spirit (John I:I3). Indeed, his flesh
became the vehicle through which his spirit was made known. So must
everyone be, John argued, who comes into the Christian faith. The believer
must be "born again." No, that did not mean to return to one's mother's
womb to be born a second time, as Nicodemus, literalist that he was,
seemed to believe (John 3:I-I 5). It meant that having been born as Jesus
was, according to the flesh, one must also be, as Jesus was, born of the
Spirit, born to the wonder and reality of God. Life in the Spirit was life
that was whole, real, transcendent, and open. It was life through which
God could be seen calling, healing, loving, and making all things new and
whole. It was this life that Jesus came to bring.
The virgin birth story had a fascinating history of development. When the
story was finally written, like all similar stories, it met its fate among
the literalizers, and so its power was lost among those who do not
understand myths as vehicles through which wordless truth can be conveyed.
The meaning of this symbol, however, was and continues to be profound. In
Jesus we have met a presence of God that human life alone could not have
created. God has come among us offering life, love, and being to this
world. Those who respond and accept the divine invitation to let this
power be born in them as believers are to be introduced to the meaning of
the Holy Spirit. In that Spirit we too are carried beyond all of our human
limits into the wonder and transcendence of God. When we live in the realm
of the Spirit, we know that the ultimate purpose of God was met in this
Jesus, whom John quoted as having said, "I came that they may have life
and have it abundantly" (John IO:IO). For abundant life is always life in
the Spirit that carries us into the timelessness of God."
(John Shelby Spong - Bishop of Newark retired - "Liberating The Gospels")
Posted in the interests of review and recommendation
Muffin
<jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
> Excuse me, vera!
>
> I have been in Turkey, during my military tour in the 60s! And the
> church Paul built in Ephesus (called "Efes" in their time/language),
> is there today, bearing the 1st C AD date on its cornerstone.
It is tiresome to keep correcting this - but it is a lie
For those interested there are a number of websites devoted to Ephesus
both archaelogical sites and tourist sites. There is no such 1st century
Church
Th Church of Ephesus operated largely in secrecy in its early years, but
not in a currently known location
>
> The Muslims may be predominate, but since they are a STRONG US ally,
> the church is free to worship openly there, and the church at Ephesus
> is going strong!
The Ottoman Turks seized the city of Constantinople in 1453. After a
brief self appointed exile, the Orthodox Patriach returned and whilst the
main cathedral of Haggia Sophia was turned into a mosque, Christianity
itself was never repressed.
Christianity continues to exist in Turkey because of these historical
realities and not because of the US alliance. That alliance is more of a
threat in that it is somewhat destabilising, but probably necressary in
terms of Western interests.
It is to be hoped that membership of the European Union will replace the
need for a direct one to one alliance and Turkey will be able to operate
through NATO - This will take time.
>
> I've encountered two Turkish people (a Christian man and a Muslim
> woman) who know the church in my travels, and I know several people in
> my building who have been to the church.
Another lie. John asserts this but cannot produce any evidence for his
ludicrous and unhistorical claim
It remains a real puzzle what john seeks to gain from these lies, easily
disproved via internet , a visit to a University library or even a phone
call
There is NO dispute about the existence of the Ephesus church as a body of
people - and no doubt that if there was a 1st century building its rubble
is somewhere in the Ephesus site - maybe below a more recent church
But found? to date it has not been
John is talking rubbish as usual - but unusually bizarre rubbish even by
his insane standards!
++++++++++++++
Muffin
<jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
> You see, vera, John H flatly rejects Christ's teaching to "encourage
> one another." In the place of that teaching, John H has substituted
> "rag on people every chance you get.
>
> Particularly those you find inferior."
>
>
> jw
But then you ARE inferior
Muffin
<hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>jw wrote
>
> > And until I was an adult, my family and I went to church
> > Christmas Eve to celebrate the event.
>
> Lots of people did and do. What is that supposed to prove?
It proves his house had a door
(unless he climbed out the window)
+++++++++++++++++++++
Muffin
<johnhe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> jw wrote:
> > And since no date for the birth of the Christ child is stated in the
> > New Testament, we who choose to worship that sacred event had to pick
> > a date of our own.
> >
> > Men thousands of years ago-- LITERALLY -- chose a date.
> >
> > We merely use that established date to worship and celebrate. And
> > until I was an adult, my family and I went to church Christmas Eve to
> > celebrate the event.
> Yes, Virginia, and there is a Santa Claus, too.
>
> JohnH
And demons that will bite you on the bum too!
And a coming Apocalypse that johnny is looking forward to so that the
streets can be awash with the blood of those he dislikes
Or those who dislike him (which is the rest of the world minus Vera)
Muffin
<ver...@acc-growing-deeper.de> wrote:
>
> But I am not really a tradition worshipper. I am in fact no religious
> person. I do not pray to Saints. My faith is all based on my personal
> relationship to God. If you think this has pagan roots... I would not
> care at all. In the end, it is up to God when to reveal Himself, and to
> whom. That is all in His hands.
>
Then pin back your bloody ears and listen to some people with sanity and
sense-0 instead of the rubbish you have been listening to - and who have
filled your silly empty head with garbage!!!!
Your vulnerability that you told us about in your life story has been used
to wash out your brains
Muffin
<hor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I suppose, if I have any justification, at all, it's truth.
Steady there
That is one thing Christians often can't handle
They see it as taking away their short cut to eternal life
Muffin
personally I think Christmas is really boring
I might find it more enjoyable if christians were at least honest about
its origins and about the fact that the story is simply a myth
Instead we have to put up with their incessant bleating about a non
existent stable, a Mother and Father who never even had a screw, some
really stupid "wise men" who got lost even though they were following a
star, some extremely smelly shepherds and a bunch of blokes in
nightdresses standing on clouds and singing slogans (without waking up the
whole bleeding neighbourhood and getting themselves into Roman records)
And then for light relief they have a bunch of legionaires running around
dismembering babies and the Angel Gabriel turning up for good measure
And those sod-awful carols
"Gentle jesus meek and mild
Look upon a little child"
EEEEEEYYYYUUUUUKKKKKKK!
AAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!
+++++++++++++++++++++
Jani
"Muffin" <Sheeps...@Dingoville.com> wrote in message
news:Sheepstation-3...@ppp2164.dyn.pacific.net.au...
> In article <joqtg1hv21702u3l2...@4ax.com>, jw
> <jw<no>@yoo.hoo> wrote:
>
>
>> Excuse me, vera!
>>
>> I have been in Turkey, during my military tour in the 60s! And the
>> church Paul built in Ephesus (called "Efes" in their time/language),
>> is there today, bearing the 1st C AD date on its cornerstone.
>
> It is tiresome to keep correcting this - but it is a lie
>
> For those interested there are a number of websites devoted to Ephesus
> both archaelogical sites and tourist sites. There is no such 1st century
> Church
After my various encounters with John, I'd suggest that he is not
deliberately lying; he misremembers what he has seen, and later genuinely
believes what he *thought* he saw. The church at Lakenheath doesn't exist,
either, but John is firmly convinced that it does, and that he saw it.
(John, I am not attacking you, here. But if you want to take it as such -
well, I'll live *wry grin*)
Jani
JohnH
Tunes or Disney.
>
> Hey, you do not know much, do you?
>
>
> You have forgotten the main heros...
>
being silly, looney, goofy, and daffy, all over again.
>
> I like Goofey best, by the way. :-P
>
>
> >>
> >>> You should know all about being silly, as
> >>> you are one of the silliest people in here.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I for one think the group could use some more levity.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks, vera!
> >>>
> >>> "You go, girl!"
> >>>
> >>> jw
> >>
> >> You cracked me up, John! :-DDD
> >>
> > Everyone knows that misery loves company.
>
> Misery? Oh!
>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> They will use anything against you, even if you mention Christmas in
> >> August. ROTFL
> >>
> > Yeah, why always get off to such a late start when you could have
> > begun your festivities back in January, huh?
>
> But that was the time to prepare myself for Easter. . . .
>
>
> >> Thanks for the laugh - I needed that. :-)
> >>
> > As does everyone else, who continues to watch "The Nutty Adventures of
> > Vera and Weatherly."
>
> You are such a sweetheart. :-)
>
VO
> One other pont
>
> personally I think Christmas is really boring
>
> I might find it more enjoyable if christians were at least honest about
> its origins and about the fact that the story is simply a myth
>
> Instead we have to put up with their incessant bleating about a non
> existent stable, a Mother and Father who never even had a screw, some
> really stupid "wise men" who got lost even though they were following a
> star,
Just to illustrate your error in discussing error.
First, I don't go with all of the traditional representation of the
Christmas story. I do think the bible is accurate. I do think that it
is EXTREMELY rare to hear anyone repeat or illustrate what the bible
actually says, especially if one has any knowledge of Jewish tradition
and defacto secular law at the time.
But
Stretch your mind a little. "Following a star?"
Two or more "wise" men determine that there is coming a "new one". The
stars say so. There is this Star (bright object / congruence) over
Bethlehem (and general area). How in your imagination does that
translate that they could pinpoint a particular house where Jesus might
be. You don't seem as one who is simple enough that you imagine the
bible refers to some laser beam guiding them. (Yes I know, that is what
999999 out of a million imagine) The positioning and location could be
vague enough to take them to Nazareth.
Now, the next question is whether the bible is telling us that astrology
is a real science.
Pastor Dave
spake thusly:
>Just to illustrate your error in discussing error.
>First, I don't go with all of the traditional
>representation of the Christmas story.
Christmas has nothing to do with Christ and it
is a pagan holiday, not a Christian one.
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Theology and ethics are inextricably bound together.
Yet under the supposed banner of unity, we have
harbored enemy ships - as long as they flew our flag.
That policy must change. Tolerating enemies of the
historic Christian faith as though they were our
brethren is not love, but adultery. The substance
of the faith is the only basis for unity."
- The Agony of Deceit, p23
Muffin
<here@there> wrote:
> Muffin wrote:
> > One other pont
> >
> > personally I think Christmas is really boring
> >
> > I might find it more enjoyable if christians were at least honest about
> > its origins and about the fact that the story is simply a myth
> >
> > Instead we have to put up with their incessant bleating about a non
> > existent stable, a Mother and Father who never even had a screw, some
> > really stupid "wise men" who got lost even though they were following a
> > star,
>
>
> Just to illustrate your error in discussing error.
> First, I don't go with all of the traditional representation of the
> Christmas story. I do think the bible is accurate. I do think that it
> is EXTREMELY rare to hear anyone repeat or illustrate what the bible
> actually says, especially if one has any knowledge of Jewish tradition
> and defacto secular law at the time.
> But
> Stretch your mind a little. "Following a star?"
In fact a number of possible explanations for the star have been given -
for example in conjunctions between planets that occurred in seven BC , in
the appearance of one of the stars of Orion (linked to the Osiris
legends) and in the position of stars and constellations at the time of
the beginning of the Age of Pisces (which is also where the fish probably
came from)
::: vera :::
"JohnH" <johnhe...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1125360914.0...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Indeed! Hey, you are highly educated!
>> Hey, you do not know much, do you?
>>
> Well enough to know not to mix the characters up though, huh?
>>
>> You have forgotten the main heros...
>>
> Heros? They're only cartoon characters. Oh, I get it. You're just
> being silly, looney, goofy, and daffy, all over again.
>>
>> I like Goofey best, by the way. :-P
>>
> In that case, it's "Goofy" not "Goofey."
>>
>> >>
>> >>> You should know all about being silly, as
>> >>> you are one of the silliest people in here.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I for one think the group could use some more levity.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks, vera!
>> >>>
>> >>> "You go, girl!"
>> >>>
>> >>> jw
>> >>
>> >> You cracked me up, John! :-DDD
>> >>
>> > Everyone knows that misery loves company.
>>
>> Misery? Oh!
>>
>> >> Thanks!
>> >>
>> >> They will use anything against you, even if you mention Christmas
>> >> in
>> >> August. ROTFL
>> >>
>> > Yeah, why always get off to such a late start when you could have
>> > begun your festivities back in January, huh?
>>
>> But that was the time to prepare myself for Easter. . . .
>>
> Hmmm, most women only need about an hour to prepare.
I can do it in 15 minutes. :-) But preparing for Easter is a pleasure,
so it may take a little longer. :-)
>> >> Thanks for the laugh - I needed that. :-)
>> >>
>> > As does everyone else, who continues to watch "The Nutty Adventures
>> > of
>> > Vera and Weatherly."
>>
>> You are such a sweetheart. :-)
>>
> Well, it's early.
Oh - what are you like when it is late? Just wondering...
::: vera :::
"Muffin" <Sheeps...@Dingoville.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Sheepstation-3...@ppp2164.dyn.pacific.net.au...
I only listen to God, sweetheart. :-)
::: vera :::
"Grouchmuncher" <ch...@up.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:11h6nqm...@corp.supernews.com...
I think you hit the nail on the head... LOL
::: vera :::