What is wrong here ...
Thomas
beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend it, or tried to show me the
'light'. I have asked myself why is this, and this is what I have come up
with; You can't defend it, because it is based on lies. This is how I see
your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is the word of
god, and that is it, everything is based off that. Most of you have no idea
about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised to believe that
the bible is a fact, and never challenged that. When you convert people to
your faith, most of those people believe already think that bible is the
word of god. So what do you do when a person doesn't believe that the bible
is the word of god. You can no longer threaten them with bodily death, like
in the dark ages. You do try to scare them with hell, saying ,'what if you
are wrong, hell is a bad place to be.' When a person is a hard sale, you
back off, because it makes you start questioning your own faith.
I have nothing against your faith, I have a hard time dealing with the 'holy
rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that everyone else is
wrong and that you are the only true religion. There is SO many things left
unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But why and in
what?
So if there is a 'Christain' with a logical brain that with like a
'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really don't think
there is one out with the guts to search into your own religion.
--
Thomas
Eric Sneddon
Thomas wrote:
> So if there is a 'Christain' with a logical brain that with like a
> 'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really don't think
> there is one out with the guts to search into your own religion.
--
Eric
;柵
And Sharkey says: Hey Kemosabe! Long time no see.
He says: Hey sport. You connect the dots. You pick up the pieces.
Sharkey's Night, Laurie Anderson
Ace Ventura
>
> I have again and again challenged your religion. I have mocked your core
> beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend it, or tried to show me the
> 'light'. I have asked myself why is this, and this is what I have come up
> with; You can't defend it, because it is based on lies. This is how I see
> your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is the word of
> god, and that is it, everything is based off that. Most of you have no idea
> about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised to believe that
> the bible is a fact, and never challenged that. When you convert people to
> your faith, most of those people believe already think that bible is the
> word of god. So what do you do when a person doesn't believe that the bible
> is the word of god. You can no longer threaten them with bodily death, like
> in the dark ages. You do try to scare them with hell, saying ,'what if you
> are wrong, hell is a bad place to be.' When a person is a hard sale, you
> back off, because it makes you start questioning your own faith.
>
> I have nothing against your faith, I have a hard time dealing with the 'holy
> rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that everyone else is
> wrong and that you are the only true religion. There is SO many things left
> unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But why and in
> what?
>
> 'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really don't think
> there is one out with the guts to search into your own religion.
Thomas,
You ask some good questions, one's that myself and others have asked
repeatedly, with about the same lack of response. I have found some
"common sense" Christians, who believe that being a Christian means
following the path demonstrated by Jesus Christ, following the example
of his life. They, unfortunately, are few and far between. A far greater
number seem to think the example that Jesus Christ set was merely to prove
he was the son of God, and has little relevance for their lives, other
than for them to "believe he is their savior so they'll go to heaven".
Most of them seem to be following Paul, rather than the person who
they supposedly claim to be. At any rate, the first group is usually
quite willing to discuss and debate, for it's easy to defend the relevance
of the teachings of a gentle man such as Jesus. The second group generally
gets angry and irrational when trying to defend their beliefs, which
is understandable because those beliefs _are_ irrational to begin with.
At any rate, that's been my experience. Hope it helps.
Striker
You came up with a good one. I hope some of the fellow christians
will heed your words. Following Paul instead of Jesus. That's a good
thought some should really think about.
Take Care,
Striker
Ace Ventura wrote in message <37C95879...@goober.net>...
GoldRush
> I have again and again challenged your religion.
Why? What's it to you?
> I have mocked your core
> beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend it, or tried to show me the
> 'light'.
We are under no obligation to defend our faith against you.
The light of understanding comes from God, not us.
You do not believe in God, and until
He shows you the light
you will remain blind and in darkness.
> I have asked myself why is this, and this is what I have come up
> with; You can't defend it, because it is based on lies. This is how I see
> your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is the word of
> god, and that is it, everything is based off that.
God says Scripture is truth. You say it is lies. We choose to believe God.
> Most of you have no idea
> about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised to believe that
> the bible is a fact, and never challenged that.
We know who wrote the Bible and why.
> When you convert people to
> your faith, most of those people believe already think that bible is the
> word of god.
Believing the Scriptures is one evidence of conversion from unbelief
to faith. Can't believe in God without believing what He said.
> So what do you do when a person doesn't believe that the bible
> is the word of god. You can no longer threaten them with bodily death, like
> in the dark ages. You do try to scare them with hell, saying ,'what if you
> are wrong, hell is a bad place to be.'
We do not threaten any body with anything. We tell people the truth
and if God does not give them faith to believe it, there is nothing else
we can do. We are not God.
> When a person is a hard sale, you
> back off, because it makes you start questioning your own faith.
We do not question our faith, God, or the Scriptures because someone
stays in darkness. That is between them and God. We are just the
messengers of truth.
>
>
> I have nothing against your faith, I have a hard time dealing with the 'holy
> rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that everyone else is
> wrong and that you are the only true religion.
There is only one absolute truth, so there can only be one absolute
faith. We are not religionists. (Or "holy rollers" either!)
> There is SO many things left
> unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But why and in
> what?
How can anyone explain anything to you, if you determine
ahead of time it is all lies?
>
>
> So if there is a 'Christain' with a logical brain that with like a
> 'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really don't think
> there is one out with the guts to search into your own religion.
>
> --
>
> Thomas
Thomas,
We have spent almost a life time searching out the truths of God,
and enjoy it. In fact, we are so busy studying the Scriptures, that
we do not have time to argue with a scoffer. This reply to you is
only to tell you that you appear foolish to challenge good people
to a debate by telling them ahead of time you think they are illogical.
We have been around long enough to know that a person can not
win an argument with an ignorant person, no matter how "friendly"
they say they will be.
Normally we do not answer trolls; this response is for any readers out
there who might be sincerely interested in learning more about the
truths of God. They are the ones we would like to have discussion with.
Jim & Ronda
--
GoldRush
For Scriptures & Christian Studies
visit http://www.mlode.com/~jrrush
Rainbow Christian
> I have again and again challenged your religion. I have mocked your core
> beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend it, or tried to show me the
> 'light'. I have asked myself why is this, and this is what I have come up
> with; You can't defend it, because it is based on lies. This is how I see
> your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is the word of
> god, and that is it, everything is based off that. Most of you have no idea
> about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised to believe that
> the bible is a fact, and never challenged that. When you convert people to
> your faith, most of those people believe already think that bible is the
> word of god. So what do you do when a person doesn't believe that the bible
> is the word of god. You can no longer threaten them with bodily death, like
> in the dark ages. You do try to scare them with hell, saying ,'what if you
> are wrong, hell is a bad place to be.' When a person is a hard sale, you
> back off, because it makes you start questioning your own faith.
>
> I have nothing against your faith, I have a hard time dealing with the 'holy
> rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that everyone else is
> wrong and that you are the only true religion. There is SO many things left
> unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But why and in
> what?
>
> So if there is a 'Christain' with a logical brain that with like a
> 'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really don't think
> there is one out with the guts to search into your own religion.
> --
>
>
>
> Thomas
I cannot speak for any other Christian.....in fact the vast majority of
Christians here will tell you I could't possibly be a Christian.....
I am replying to you to be polite....
I have a roomate, who like you, is a non-Christian. She likes to get into
theological agruements and try to force me to defend my faith.
However, since she like I believe you, have already mad up your mind that
my faith is based on lies, and myths, I find that there really is no
"defense" that I could possibly offer...
Therefore I do ignore posts as yours as a rule.
I would rather live out my faith as Jesus modeled, taking seriously his
commands to a peacemaker, a person who attempts to meet the needs of the
poor, to comfort those who morn, to raise awareness of socil justice
issue, to visit those in the hospital and prison, etc.
Oh yeah, I also try to negate some of the idiocy that some of "my brothers
and sisters in Christ" post here, and other newsgroups.
If I thought you had a need that I could fill, I would atttewmpt to fill it.
But I have no time to waste in pointless debate.
respectfully,
Rainbow Christian
--
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/1734
Eric Christy
Hello Thomas, I will enter into discussion with you. If you wish...begin.
Eric.
Ace Ventura
of "Pastor" Frank for saying something kind about me, and will
likely be labeled an "atheist troll from hell" for doing so. :)
Regards,
Ace
Striker wrote:
>
> Ace,
> You came up with a good one. I hope some of the fellow christians
> will heed your words. Following Paul instead of Jesus. That's a good
> thought some should really think about.
>
> Take Care,
> Striker
>
> Ace Ventura wrote in message <37C95879...@goober.net>...
Ace Ventura
>
> Thomas wrote:
>
> > I have again and again challenged your religion.
>
>
> > beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend it, or tried to show me the
> > 'light'.
>
> The light of understanding comes from God, not us.
>
> You do not believe in God, and until
> He shows you the light
> you will remain blind and in darkness.
>
> > with; You can't defend it, because it is based on lies. This is how I see
> > your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is the word of
> > god, and that is it, everything is based off that.
>
>
> > about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised to believe that
> > the bible is a fact, and never challenged that.
>
>
> > your faith, most of those people believe already think that bible is the
> > word of god.
>
> to faith. Can't believe in God without believing what He said.
>
> > is the word of god. You can no longer threaten them with bodily death, like
> > in the dark ages. You do try to scare them with hell, saying ,'what if you
> > are wrong, hell is a bad place to be.'
>
> and if God does not give them faith to believe it, there is nothing else
> we can do. We are not God.
>
> > back off, because it makes you start questioning your own faith.
>
> stays in darkness. That is between them and God. We are just the
> messengers of truth.
>
> >
> > rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that everyone else is
> > wrong and that you are the only true religion.
>
> faith. We are not religionists. (Or "holy rollers" either!)
>
> > unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But why and in
> > what?
>
> ahead of time it is all lies?
>
> >
> > 'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really don't think
> > there is one out with the guts to search into your own religion.
> >
>
> Thomas,
>
> We have spent almost a life time searching out the truths of God,
> and enjoy it. In fact, we are so busy studying the Scriptures, that
> we do not have time to argue with a scoffer. This reply to you is
> only to tell you that you appear foolish to challenge good people
> to a debate by telling them ahead of time you think they are illogical.
>
> We have been around long enough to know that a person can not
> win an argument with an ignorant person, no matter how "friendly"
> they say they will be.
>
> Normally we do not answer trolls; this response is for any readers out
> there who might be sincerely interested in learning more about the
> truths of God. They are the ones we would like to have discussion with.
>
> Jim & Ronda
>
> --
> GoldRush
Translation: "We are incapable of defending our theology because we know
it's illogical. Much easier to call those who question it "trolls", and
label them "ignorant", then actually debating them. Have a nice day, and
God bless."
P.S.: Has it occurred to you why it is that people question your beliefs?
Aside from being illogical, many of your ilk have tried legislating your
morality, forcing your prayers in the public schools, and sneaking your
creation myth into the science class room. So, while you certainly have
the right to remain silent, and appear incompetent in defending your
beliefs, we also have every right to question them. Have a nice day.
Striker
work out. We should follow Jesus instead of following any other
person, you made a good point. Would Jesus call you a troll from
hell, I think not. Jesus loves you and he loves me and he loves
everybody but as you know there are rules and we must try as best we
can to live by them. For no one is perfect and we will mess up now
and then.
Peace to you Ace and H.A.N.D.,
Striker
Ace Ventura wrote in message <37C982C8...@goober.net>...
>Thanks Striker, but be forwarned: You have now incurred the wrath
>of "Pastor" Frank for saying something kind about me, and will
>likely be labeled an "atheist troll from hell" for doing so. :)
>
>Regards,
>Ace
>
>Striker wrote:
>>
>> Ace,
>> You came up with a good one. I hope some of the fellow
christians
>> will heed your words. Following Paul instead of Jesus. That's a
good
>> thought some should really think about.
>>
>> Take Care,
>> Striker
>>
>> Ace Ventura wrote in message <37C95879...@goober.net>...
>> >Thomas wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I have again and again challenged your religion. I have mocked
>> your core
>> >> beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend it, or tried
to
>> show me the
>> >> 'light'. I have asked myself why is this, and this is what I
have
>> come up
>> >> with; You can't defend it, because it is based on lies. This
is
>> how I see
>> >> your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is
the
>> word of
>> >> god, and that is it, everything is based off that. Most of you
>> have no idea
>> >> about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised to
>> believe that
>> >> the bible is a fact, and never challenged that. When you
convert
>> people to
>> >> your faith, most of those people believe already think that
bible
>> is the
>> >> word of god. So what do you do when a person doesn't believe
that
>> the bible
>> >> is the word of god. You can no longer threaten them with
bodily
>> death, like
>> >> in the dark ages. You do try to scare them with hell, saying
>> ,'what if you
>> >> are wrong, hell is a bad place to be.' When a person is a hard
>> sale, you
>> >> back off, because it makes you start questioning your own
faith.
>> >>
>> >> I have nothing against your faith, I have a hard time dealing
with
>> the 'holy
>> >> rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that
everyone
>> else is
>> >> wrong and that you are the only true religion. There is SO
many
>> things left
>> >> unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But
why
>> and in
>> >> what?
>> >>
>> >> So if there is a 'Christain' with a logical brain that with
like a
>> >> 'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really
don't
>> think
>> >> there is one out with the guts to search into your own
religion.
>> >
Ace Ventura
What does H.A.N.D. stand for? I know it'll seem obvious when you
tell me, but I haven't been able to figure it out.
Peace,
Ace
Striker
Ace Ventura wrote in message <37C988B1...@goober.net>...
GoldRush
> <snipped>
>
>
> P.S.: Has it occurred to you why it is that people question your beliefs?
We know why people question our beliefs. They do not believe in God,
and question why we do. This bothers them, so they bother us.
>
> Aside from being illogical,
Our answers are not logical? That is illogical for you to say.
> many of your ilk have tried legislating your
> morality,
According to that statement, Christians have no right to representation
in the U.S. Government. Hmmmmm.
> forcing your prayers in the public schools,
No one that we know of believes in forced prayer. That would not
constitute prayer at all. What we advocate is freedom of speech
and expression, and if it is delivered in the form of a prayer, it should
be allowed.
> and sneaking your
> creation myth into the science class room.
Sneaking! Ha! This argument has been the most open debate
in our country's history since the inception of public schooling.
How old are you?
> So, while you certainly have
> the right to remain silent,
Good luck keeping us silent.
> and appear incompetent in defending your
> beliefs,
Haven't defended our beliefs . . .don't need to. Your
criticisms do not come close to threatening our beliefs.
> we also have every right to question them.
Go ahead in your unbelief and question. Not many will
bother to answer you, though, because your eyes are blinded
and your ears do not hear. You are not really asking for
answers. You merely want to harass.
> Have a nice day.
Same to you.
Thomas
How did you come to this belief? What happened to you that you said, 'I
see the light!'
In no way am I being rude to you, I am just wondering.
--
Thomas
"Attempts have been made to curtail freedoms enjoyed by American pagans."
- http://www.pagansvote.org/
Here is who I am voting for what about you:
http://www.reformist.com/bio.html
Rainbow Christian <gsp...@poboxes.com> wrote in message
news:gspmcc-2908...@1cust237.tnt50.chi5.da.uu.net...
> In article <rsieoi...@corp.supernews.com>, "Thomas" <gf...@htcomp.net>
Thomas
> Translation: "We are incapable of defending our theology because we know
> it's illogical. Much easier to call those who question it "trolls", and
> label them "ignorant", then actually debating them. Have a nice day, and
> God bless."
>
> morality, forcing your prayers in the public schools, and sneaking your
> creation myth into the science class room. So, while you certainly have
> the right to remain silent, and appear incompetent in defending your
> beliefs, we also have every right to question them. Have a nice day.
>
You are 100% correct in why I want to debate.
I think I like you Ace.
--
Thomas
"Attempts have been made to curtail freedoms enjoyed by American pagans."
- http://www.pagansvote.org/
Here is who I am voting for what about you:
http://www.reformist.com/bio.html
Ace Ventura <aceve...@goober.net> wrote in message
news:37C9823F...@goober.net...
> GoldRush wrote:
> >
> > Thomas wrote:
> >
> > > I have again and again challenged your religion.
> >
> > Why? What's it to you?
> >
> > > I have mocked your core
> > > beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend it, or tried to show
me the
> > > 'light'.
> >
> > We are under no obligation to defend our faith against you.
> > The light of understanding comes from God, not us.
> >
> > You do not believe in God, and until
> > He shows you the light
> > you will remain blind and in darkness.
> >
> > > I have asked myself why is this, and this is what I have come up
> > > with; You can't defend it, because it is based on lies. This is how I
see
> > > your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is the word
of
> > > god, and that is it, everything is based off that.
> >
> > God says Scripture is truth. You say it is lies. We choose to believe
God.
> >
> > > Most of you have no idea
> > > about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised to believe
that
> > > the bible is a fact, and never challenged that.
> >
> > We know who wrote the Bible and why.
> >
> > > When you convert people to
> > > your faith, most of those people believe already think that bible is
the
> > > word of god.
> >
> > Believing the Scriptures is one evidence of conversion from unbelief
> > to faith. Can't believe in God without believing what He said.
> >
> > > So what do you do when a person doesn't believe that the bible
> > > is the word of god. You can no longer threaten them with bodily
death, like
> > > in the dark ages. You do try to scare them with hell, saying ,'what
if you
> > > are wrong, hell is a bad place to be.'
> >
> > We do not threaten any body with anything. We tell people the truth
> > and if God does not give them faith to believe it, there is nothing else
> > we can do. We are not God.
> >
> > > When a person is a hard sale, you
> > > back off, because it makes you start questioning your own faith.
> >
> > We do not question our faith, God, or the Scriptures because someone
> > stays in darkness. That is between them and God. We are just the
> > messengers of truth.
> >
> > >
> > > I have nothing against your faith, I have a hard time dealing with the
'holy
> > > rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that everyone else
is
> > > wrong and that you are the only true religion.
> >
> > There is only one absolute truth, so there can only be one absolute
> > faith. We are not religionists. (Or "holy rollers" either!)
> >
> > > There is SO many things left
> > > unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But why and
in
> > > what?
> >
> > How can anyone explain anything to you, if you determine
> > ahead of time it is all lies?
> >
> > >
> > > So if there is a 'Christain' with a logical brain that with like a
> > > 'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really don't
think
> > > there is one out with the guts to search into your own religion.
> > >
> > > Thomas
> >
> > Thomas,
> >
> > We have spent almost a life time searching out the truths of God,
> > and enjoy it. In fact, we are so busy studying the Scriptures, that
> > we do not have time to argue with a scoffer. This reply to you is
> > only to tell you that you appear foolish to challenge good people
> > to a debate by telling them ahead of time you think they are illogical.
> >
> > We have been around long enough to know that a person can not
> > win an argument with an ignorant person, no matter how "friendly"
> > they say they will be.
> >
> > Normally we do not answer trolls; this response is for any readers out
> > there who might be sincerely interested in learning more about the
> > truths of God. They are the ones we would like to have discussion with.
> >
> > Jim & Ronda
> >
> > --
> > GoldRush
>
> Translation: "We are incapable of defending our theology because we know
> it's illogical. Much easier to call those who question it "trolls", and
> label them "ignorant", then actually debating them. Have a nice day, and
> God bless."
>
> P.S.: Has it occurred to you why it is that people question your beliefs?
> Aside from being illogical, many of your ilk have tried legislating your
> morality, forcing your prayers in the public schools, and sneaking your
> creation myth into the science class room. So, while you certainly have
> the right to remain silent, and appear incompetent in defending your
> beliefs, we also have every right to question them. Have a nice day.
>
Thomas
bible. How could this be the word of god, there is a great deal of
confusion about it. The Catholics accept a bible, that contains a bible
that has more books than the KJV, how can this be, if the spirit of god
wrote this book, it shouldn't be anything to be confuse about. And why did
only a small few of the books get put in the bible, isn't that called
censorship?
--
Thomas
Eric Christy <slid...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:37C9724F...@uswest.net...
> Eric to Thomas:
> Hello Thomas, I will enter into discussion with you. If you wish...begin.
> Eric.
>
> Thomas wrote:
>
> > I have again and again challenged your religion. I have mocked your
core
> > beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend it, or tried to show me
the
> > 'light'. I have asked myself why is this, and this is what I have come
up
> > with; You can't defend it, because it is based on lies. This is how I
see
> > your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is the word of
> > god, and that is it, everything is based off that. Most of you have no
idea
> > about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised to believe
that
> > the bible is a fact, and never challenged that. When you convert people
to
> > your faith, most of those people believe already think that bible is the
> > word of god. So what do you do when a person doesn't believe that the
bible
> > is the word of god. You can no longer threaten them with bodily death,
like
> > in the dark ages. You do try to scare them with hell, saying ,'what if
you
> > are wrong, hell is a bad place to be.' When a person is a hard sale,
you
> > back off, because it makes you start questioning your own faith.
> >
> > I have nothing against your faith, I have a hard time dealing with the
'holy
> > rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that everyone else is
> > wrong and that you are the only true religion. There is SO many things
left
> > unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But why and
in
> > what?
> >
> > So if there is a 'Christain' with a logical brain that with like a
> > 'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really don't think
> > there is one out with the guts to search into your own religion.
> > --
> >
> > Thomas
>
Eric Christy
You bring up the problems with our bible. You are right, there are many.
I am not a Christian who takes the inerrant position. If I were, I would have
to lie a lot to cover the obvious errors in our bible.
I believe the bible to be God's word to humanity, giving us what He felt was
needed in His attempt to bring salvation to us.
The fact that He chose to bring us the bible through human agency and left it up
to human agency to perpetuate the copies, means He isn't too bothered with
errors creeping into His book. It is my view that the bible is accurate enough
to get the -KEY- message to us, which is salvation through Jesus Christ.
I returned your serve, your shot...
Eric.
Ace Ventura
>
> Ace Ventura wrote:
>
> > <snipped>
> >
> >
> > P.S.: Has it occurred to you why it is that people question your beliefs?
>
> and question why we do. This bothers them, so they bother us.
You're wrong, but you must be used to that by now. I don't question the
belief in God, I question the belief that "the bible's the infallible
word of God, and only Christianity is right" attitude. There is a
difference, but I don't think you understand this is so.
> > Aside from being illogical,
>
> Our answers are not logical? That is illogical for you to say.
>
> > many of your ilk have tried legislating your
> > morality,
>
> According to that statement, Christians have no right to representation
> in the U.S. Government. Hmmmmm.
You don't get it. The original point was why people question your
theology. My reply was that when you try legislating it, you will be
held accountable for why you insist you are right, and everyone else
is wrong.
> > forcing your prayers in the public schools,
>
> No one that we know of believes in forced prayer. That would not
> constitute prayer at all. What we advocate is freedom of speech
> and expression, and if it is delivered in the form of a prayer, it should
> be allowed.
But during class time? That's what many of you are suggesting.
> > and sneaking your
> > creation myth into the science class room.
>
> Sneaking! Ha! This argument has been the most open debate
> in our country's history since the inception of public schooling.
> How old are you?
Old enough to remember when ignorance reigned supreme, and you folks
tried to suppress the teaching of science in science class.
> > So, while you certainly have
> > the right to remain silent,
>
> Good luck keeping us silent.
Oh, trust me, I don't expect that to happen! :)
> > and appear incompetent in defending your
> > beliefs,
>
> Haven't defended our beliefs . . .don't need to. Your
> criticisms do not come close to threatening our beliefs.
Uh huh.
> > we also have every right to question them.
>
> Go ahead in your unbelief and question. Not many will
> bother to answer you, though, because your eyes are blinded
> and your ears do not hear. You are not really asking for
> answers. You merely want to harass.
Generally I've found that those most secure in their beliefs
actually do answer. Those who are insecure accuse us of "merely
wanting to harass. Interesting phenomena.
Tim
Eric Christy wrote:
> Eric to Thomas:
> You bring up the problems with our bible. You are right, there are many.
> I am not a Christian who takes the inerrant position. If I were, I would have
> to lie a lot to cover the obvious errors in our bible.
Excellent....
> I believe the bible to be God's word to humanity, giving us what He felt was
> needed in His attempt to bring salvation to us.
New or old testament here?? Both I hope.... Then you really don't have a
point....
> The fact that He chose to bring us the bible through human agency and left it up
> to human agency to perpetuate the copies, means He isn't too bothered with
> errors creeping into His book.
Thus one wrong interpreation at the start of the bible's life, could have damned
us all to hell????
> It is my view that the bible is accurate enough
> to get the -KEY- message to us, which is salvation through Jesus Christ.
> I returned your serve, your shot...
> Eric.
>
I really think he aced you.....
Bill McHale
: Ok, with the ball in my court, I say we should get to the core of it, the
: bible. How could this be the word of god, there is a great deal of
: confusion about it. The Catholics accept a bible, that contains a bible
: that has more books than the KJV, how can this be, if the spirit of god
: wrote this book, it shouldn't be anything to be confuse about. And why did
: only a small few of the books get put in the bible, isn't that called
: censorship?
Sorry for jumping into this so late. But I would also like to participate
in this debate on the side of what I feel is Christianity; specifically my
interpretation stemming from Roman Catholic teachings.
Now on to the point. Let me start by summarizing your arguments so that
we are sure that I am answering the correct accusations.
How can Christians accept a book to be the word of God when:
1. It contains much confusion. Presumably you mean that there are
contradictions in it.
2. The number of books is variable. The Protestants and Catholics and
Orthodox do not agree over the number of books that are in the Bible.
3. Only a small number of the spiritual books written were incorporated
into the Bible.
All of the charges you mentioned are valid in some degree or another, but
they do not necessarily invalidate the Bible as a whole, they do however
invalidate certain view points regarding the Bible. Those who would like
to believe that the Bible was dictated by God directly to its authors and
to those who assembled the book are certainly incorrect. However if one
instead believes that the authors were inspired by God but allowed to
write in their own style and colored their accounts from their own
background or customized it to their immediate audiance, then things are
more reasonable.
A similar response can be used to explain the reason for why a number of
books did not make it into the Bible. Not all books would have been
written from God's inspiration or in some cases personal opinion might
have obscured the true message to such an extent as to render the book
unusable.
As for the disagreement regarding the number of books in the Bible. That
unfortunately is a result of internal divisions. Hopefully in the future
those divisions will be resolved and the issue will be settled.
--
Bill
***************************************************************************
Nostalgia is not what it use to be!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1
***************************************************************************
Jason T. Powell
> your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is the word
2 Cor 11:19
You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! NIV
For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye [yourselves] are wise. KJV
What that means Thomas is no one can even begin with you because you're not
even open to the possibilities of truth. Just like the men who were
persecuted for telling the people the earth wasn't flat but round. You are
the same way.
Jason
Rainbow Christian
> Rainbow,
>
> How did you come to this belief? What happened to you that you said, 'I
> see the light!'
Thomas, to tru and answer that question would take a book....
There were a numbber of events in my life, that at that point spanned some
30 years (okay maybe 20 when I could be said of having the capacity of
rational thought.)....and a number of "spiritual paths" tha I followed.
That there was a power Higher than myself proved itself to me again, tho
of course not with tye kind of evidence that would satify your average
atheist (no evidence that can be confirmed under lab conditions)....
None of the spiritual paths I folowed brought me peronal satifaction,
improved my relationships with people, or "empowered and renewed" me to
continue in the varius social justice activities I have and continue to be
involved in.
Christianity, and my relationship with Jesus, works for me.
As I said, this not objective proof of anything. But then love for another
can't be proved scientifically/obejectively either.
All I can say, is if paganism (or atheisism, or Hinduism, or...)works for
you,if it makes a causes you to a positive difference in th follow it. If
doesn't then find the path that does....
Paul wrote in one of his letters that we would be judged by the truth we
*know*, whether we live by it or not....therefore I do not preseume to
even pretend to know how Truth/God has been revealed to anyone else.
Eric Christy
What you probably don't understand is that Christianity is -not- solely based upon the
bible. It is actually based upon relationship, not religion.
The bible gives us the basic information, but the rest of Christianity is in developing
a relationship with God through a relationship with Jesus.
This relationship is accomplished through recognition of one's need for God and then
taking the steps in finding how to fill that need.
If someone never senses their need for God, much of the bible will not make sense.
Once someone senses their need for God, the bible makes a bit more sense.
Once someone chooses to commit to God, the bible makes even more sense.
Once someone has lived for awhile knowing God through the presence of Christ in them,
the bible makes even more sense.
Once someone has matured to a point where they ask the important spiritual questions,
the bible makes less sense.
Once someone finally grows to a level of honesty which allows them to think through the
spiritual issues, they realize that the bible is a tool sent by God, errors and all.
Christianity isn't the bible.
Christianity is based on the bible, but isn't the bible.
Christianity is a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
As one understands the bible better, they do find errors here and there.
The mature Christian doesn't require that the bible be inerrant.
The mature Christian knows it has some errors.
The mature Christian knows that its their relationship with Jesus that makes them a
Christian, not if whether the bible is inerrant or not.
Eric.
Edmond Dantés
kind, willing to listen secularists. Maybe in our ultimate kindness we
should feed a few of them to the lions and kill some more for there beliefs.
That will prove we are better than Christians. ; )
Thomas <gf...@htcomp.net> wrote in message
news:rsieoi...@corp.supernews.com...
> I have again and again challenged your religion. I have mocked your core
> beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend it, or tried to show me
the
> 'light'. I have asked myself why is this, and this is what I have come up
> with; You can't defend it, because it is based on lies. This is how I see
> your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is the word of
> god, and that is it, everything is based off that. Most of you have no
idea
> about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised to believe that
> the bible is a fact, and never challenged that. When you convert people
to
> your faith, most of those people believe already think that bible is the
> word of god. So what do you do when a person doesn't believe that the
bible
Brenda
I'm not a typical fundamentalist Christian, who never questioned anything. I
have in fact been through a lot of searching in my 52 years on earth, and have
come to believe and disbelieve in certain things. Much I don't understand, but
believe I shall one day.
I don't know the Bible all that well, but I do believe I know the source of my
being, and through a variety of unusual experiences, I have come to believe many
things that are written in the Bible, although not all of it.
Some of my experiences are recorded now in a website, that I am still working
on, but which you may find interesting. It's on
http://www.angelfire.com/in2/harmony
Be very interested in discussing it with you.
There's so much we don't know, and I'm sure we can learn from each other, as we
question things.
Brenda Henry
Jason Hommel
Thomas wrote:
Dear Thomas, that is some interesting comments you made. I question religious
teachings all the time, and a lot of them surely are bunk. Many religions are
completely illogical. Pray to a string of beads, or a statue? Pay some priest
a fee to forgive me? Give 10% of my income over to a bunch of dudes in robes
that sometimes end up being accused of child moletation??!? Forget that!
Reason tells us that 1 + 1 = 2, and that mathmatics is true and correct.
There are 10 to the 76th power number of atoms in the universe. Any
philosophy that has as little odds of being correct as picking out just one
of those atoms, when you have the entire universe to choose from, is
obviously folly.
An encryption code on a computer is typically made up of 56 1's and 0's. To
randomly pick the right combination, you need to sort through 72 quadrillion
combinations. Tough, but possible given time and serious computer power.
128 bit encryption is 10 to the 34th power tough, 256 bit, is like 10 to the
70th power.
DNA is also like an encryption code, but there are more than 256 rungs in a
ladder of DNA, and there are 4, not 2 choices per rung. Really, the odds of
cracking DNA, that is, designing life from scratch, is 10 to the 3,000,000th
power. It dwarfs the imagination, and is completely beyond all hope of
random chance, no matter how many universes of earths you have at your
disposal. Any God who can crack the encryption code of DNA, must, by reason
and necessity, stand completly outside the realm of time and a three
dimensional universe.
The ONLY religion that has a God that has proof of this power is the God of
the Christian and Jewish Faith, the Lord Jesus Christ, whose work is the
Living Word, the Holy Bible.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Cottage/1651/666mark.htm proves that the
1900 year old ancient prophesy about a mark being needed to buy and sell is
almost upon us, and the secular world confirms it with technology and stated
goals in mainstream press. You will hear all kinds of prophesies in the
press about nostradamus, and edgar cayce, and they often mention the Bible,
weakly and in passing, mentioning failed prophesies about the second coming,
but none, none, ever mention or talk about this very, very specific prophesy
about a cashless society. Ever wonder why?
By reason, you need to repent, and accept the Lord Jesus Christ.
[Rom 5:8.14] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[1John 1:9.8] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us
our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[Rom 10:9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and
shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou
shalt be saved. [Rom 10:10] For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [Mat
10:32] Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess
also before my Father which is in heaven.
In Christ,
Jason Hommel
--
The Church is the Bride of Christ.
The Jewish Wedding parallels the Rapture of the Bride.
The Feast of Trumpets is the "wedding feast".
Multiple major Bible themes all indicate the Rapture will occur on
Sept. 10-11th, 1999, --the two-day Feast of Trumpets
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Cottage/1651/
300+ verses show Feast of Trumpets as the festival.
200+ verses show 5760 or 1999 as the year, through
many different proofs.
60 verses show the wise will know.
[Mat 25:6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold,
the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
The Feast of Trumpets Rapture will fulfill the verse:
[Mark 13:32] But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no,
not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
The "last trump" Rapture feast happens on either of two days.
And Christ, like the bridegroom in the Jewish Wedding Ceremony,
must have his Father's permission to go and steal away his bride,
like a thief in the night, while his friends blow trumpets and
shout, "Behold, the Bridegroom Cometh"!
In Christ,
Jason Hommel
Jarod
phrase them and your overall tone makes it quite clear that your mind is
already made up.
The implication from that is that while arguing with you for hours and hours
may be intellectually stimulating, it's not likely to achieve much.
Let's face it - at the end of the day you'll think I'm an irrational
religious wacko and I'll think you're a closed-minded atheist. You'll go
away hoping that one day I'll see the light. I'll go away thinking the same
thing.
So, apologies for preferring not to take up your offer of an academic
stoush. There are just simply more effective ways to spend one's time and
effort.
But, get back to me if you ever decide to take an open mind on the subject
<grin> because then there'd actually be some point in it.
Cheers
Jarod
Thomas <gf...@htcomp.net> wrote in message
news:rsieoi...@corp.supernews.com...
nam...@my-deja.com
misleading. I challenge you to read it and to tell me if you find any
mistakes. Some of the information has even been verified by secular
sources.(Though I can't think of an exact reference at the moment.) If
you have any questions ask god to answer it or post them here.
Jennifer
Common Ground Alternative church
http://www.basicministries.org/heaven/christian/LoveOfGod/047/index.html
In article <rsieoi...@corp.supernews.com>,
"Thomas" <gf...@htcomp.net> wrote:
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
~J~
NG as errors have been pulled out of context. I too challenge unbelievers
to read the Bible in its entirety, and only then can they comment with any
authority.
Blessings,
~J~
<nam...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7qh812$2as$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
GoldRush
> Thomas, you raise potentially interesting questions however the way you
> phrase them and your overall tone makes it quite clear that your mind is
> already made up.
> The implication from that is that while arguing with you for hours and hours
> may be intellectually stimulating, it's not likely to achieve much.
> Let's face it - at the end of the day you'll think I'm an irrational
> religious wacko and I'll think you're a closed-minded atheist. You'll go
> away hoping that one day I'll see the light. I'll go away thinking the same
> thing.
>
> So, apologies for preferring not to take up your offer of an academic
> stoush. There are just simply more effective ways to spend one's time and
> effort.
> But, get back to me if you ever decide to take an open mind on the subject
> <grin> because then there'd actually be some point in it.
>
> Cheers
>
>
<snipped>
Cheers, Jarod!
We liked your answer, and we have had the pleasure of meeting
a few really remarkable Christians from down under lately.
What is happening in Australia?
Sounds positive from up here . . .
Anytime you want to talk with fellow believers instead of
skeptics, get back to us!
Jim & Ronda
Jon Brooks
are a bunch of illogical, ignorant barbarians, guess nothing has changed to
much since the persicutions from the imperial court of Rome to the Imperial
court of "holy" Rome. Only difference is that Christians arnt accused of
being atheists and being destroyed for not worshipping the gods of the
Empire...but we'll just have to wait till the Empire is reborn and the gods
of science and logic, the gods of the "holy" philosophy, the gods of
convienience and fornication, when we are presented to the judge we will
not recant our faith and the judge will execute us not for being Christian,
but for remaining Christian in the presence of the almighty Logic and
Reason, human logic and human reason, born of the human mind, imperfect and
breathed by the pits of hell, no, not much has changed since the the
Imperial courts.
in Christ Jesus, His disciple Jonathan
nam...@my-deja.com wrote in article <7qh812$2as$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
ROB-B-Q
Thomas wrote in message ...
>
>I have nothing against your faith, I have a hard time dealing with the
'holy
>rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that everyone else is
>wrong and that you are the only true religion. There is SO many things
left
>unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But why and in
>what?
That is not true, if you had nothing against it you would not have said "I
have again and again challenged your religion. I have mocked your core
beliefs..."
You are looking to start trouble
I would say that is why no one answers you
What proof do you have that there is NOT a God?
Rob
Thomas
can say I don't believe in it.
Errors... what a funny word, I agree it doesn't have any errors, per se,
what could you possibly prove it against. What I am saying is that is
can't be Holy Writ. Now prove that it is.
Ok let me be nicer, say I live on a island that never heard of Jesus, and
you showed up trying to convert me, but unlike the American Natives you
can't kill me, how could you show me that the bible is the Holy Writ. You
can't, unless I have faith in it, and I will not get faith from it by
reading it, anybody can write anything. But to have faith in something you
are taking a bet on it, you are sure it is right, BUT that doesn't make it
right. YES you have faith in your religion, like I have faith in mine, BUT
why are you, as a religion, trying to force feed it to me? I don't want to
hear your prays at football games, I don't want to read your Ten Commandants
on walls, I don't want a judge praying in the courtroom. WHY can't you
understand that, why is that so hard. KEEP RELIGION AT HOME OR IN THE
CHURCH, just keep it the hell out of the public view, there is alot of
different faiths out there, not all of us are open about because we are in
fear of losing our jobs or being running out of town. Yes, that is right, I
fear you, I seen you attack others, so in the 'real' world you will never
know how I believe, some times I go to church so my neighbors won't talk, I
may even wear a cross so I can keep my job. That is what your religion has
done to American, you have put fear in us.
Lets say for a moment that I am wrong, and the Christain religion is the
only way, I think on judgment day the boss will look at my life and say 'I
don't blame you'. Most of you are so narrow minded to think that god just
put you here as a test to see if you worship him or not. Don't you ever
think that maybe there is more to it than just that. You think life is
black or white, WAKE UP and buy a color TV, life is wonderful, there are so
many joys to be had.
And yes there is happiness and joy in other religions, and not everything I
do is a sin. I am not a slave to my faith, I have no fears of death.
Boy, that felt good, I guess I needed that. Thank you cyber space for
listening ....
--
Thomas
"Attempts have been made to curtail freedoms enjoyed by American pagans."
- http://www.pagansvote.org/
Here is who I am voting for what about you:
http://www.reformist.com/bio.html
~J~ <tomy...@home.com> wrote in message
news:A6%y3.110$28....@cletus.bright.net...
> Agreed. There are no errors in The Holy Bible. Everything quoted in this
> NG as errors have been pulled out of context. I too challenge unbelievers
> to read the Bible in its entirety, and only then can they comment with any
> authority.
> Blessings,
> ~J~
>
>
> <nam...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7qh812$2as$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> | Question have you read any of the Bible. Isolated verses can be
> | misleading. I challenge you to read it and to tell me if you find any
> | mistakes. Some of the information has even been verified by secular
> | sources.(Though I can't think of an exact reference at the moment.) If
> | you have any questions ask god to answer it or post them here.
> | Jennifer
> | Common Ground Alternative church
> | http://www.basicministries.org/heaven/christian/LoveOfGod/047/index.html
> |
> | In article <rsieoi...@corp.supernews.com>,
> | "Thomas" <gf...@htcomp.net> wrote:
> | > I have again and again challenged your religion. I have mocked your
> | core
> | > I have nothing against your faith, I have a hard time dealing with
> | the 'holy
> | > rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that everyone else
> | is
> | > wrong and that you are the only true religion. There is SO many
> | things left
> | > unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But why
> | and in
> | > what?
> | >
Scott Wilcox
> By the way I have read and studied the bible for many years, that is why I
> can say I don't believe in it.
Hi Thomas.
I guess then that 'reading the Bible' may or may not have anything to do with
faith?
>
> Errors... what a funny word, I agree it doesn't have any errors, per se,
> what could you possibly prove it against. What I am saying is that is
> can't be Holy Writ. Now prove that it is.
An interesting concession. I cannot 'prove' it is Holy Writ. But we can agree
on at least some historical accuracy.
>
>
> Ok let me be nicer, say I live on a island that never heard of Jesus, and
> you showed up trying to convert me, but unlike the American Natives you
> can't kill me, how could you show me that the bible is the Holy Writ. You
> can't, unless I have faith in it, and I will not get faith from it by
> reading it, anybody can write anything.
I agree. Just reading something does not make it true. The scenerio you have
described has occurred countless times throughout history, and among people who
could not read at all, or without an alphabet. The vehicle of faith was the
*gospel*.. that is, the good news about Jesus Christ. It was this message,
whether written or spoken that stirred within the hearers, and brought faith.
It was their encounter with the Holy Spirit that confirmed it to them.
Afterward, they learned to read, so they could study the history of this message
that had brought them life.
Keep in mind that christianity did not just happen. It was not just part of
European imperialism of the last few centuries. Europeans, Asians, Africans,
Indians, etc., were all recipients of this message in the first few centuries of
our calendar.
> But to have faith in something you
> are taking a bet on it, you are sure it is right, BUT that doesn't make it
> right.
I agree. Positive thinking or wishful thinking does not make anything true.
But there are other kinds of 'faith'. You have faith that the jet you board
will fly you to your destination. This is a 'faith' based on knowledge,
experience, & common sense. I submit that this is what christianity is about.
Blind faith has no use or purpose. This is not the kind of faith that is spoken
of in the Bible.
> YES you have faith in your religion, like I have faith in mine, BUT
> why are you, as a religion, trying to force feed it to me? I don't want to
> hear your prays at football games, I don't want to read your Ten Commandants
> on walls, I don't want a judge praying in the courtroom. WHY can't you
> understand that, why is that so hard. KEEP RELIGION AT HOME OR IN THE
> CHURCH, just keep it the hell out of the public view, there is alot of
> different faiths out there, not all of us are open about because we are in
> fear of losing our jobs or being running out of town. Yes, that is right, I
> fear you, I seen you attack others, so in the 'real' world you will never
> know how I believe, some times I go to church so my neighbors won't talk, I
> may even wear a cross so I can keep my job. That is what your religion has
> done to American, you have put fear in us.
This is a very bizarre comment. Personal philosophies about life are constantly
in view. A moral person could complain about movies, tv shows & the barrage of
immorality from our media. That is someone else's 'religion', why cannot they
keep it at home or in their own 'church'? Humanism is rampant in the public
schools, yet no one complains about that. If we look at what you are really
saying, it seems to be 'keep christianity away!' You are probably very tolerant
of other religious views, why are you so hostile toward christianity?
>
> Lets say for a moment that I am wrong, and the Christain religion is the
> only way, I think on judgment day the boss will look at my life and say 'I
> don't blame you'. Most of you are so narrow minded to think that god just
> put you here as a test to see if you worship him or not. Don't you ever
> think that maybe there is more to it than just that. You think life is
> black or white, WAKE UP and buy a color TV, life is wonderful, there are so
> many joys to be had.
You 'think'. This is wishful thinking. What basis do you have to suppose that
the God of the Bible, with His holiness & intolerance for sin will accept you
just because you think you weren't so bad? You are gambling big time to presume
your opinions on eternity & the nature of God are right, & thousands of years of
scriptural inspiration (or even the opinions of others, if you wish) are wrong.
What if *you* are wrong? Wouldn't you rather be more certain than just hoping
your own 'goodness' is enough to save your soul?
I do agree with you that there are many joys in life. What makes you think that
christians do not share in these?
>
>
> And yes there is happiness and joy in other religions, and not everything I
> do is a sin. I am not a slave to my faith, I have no fears of death.
No, not everything you do is a sin. But have you ever sinned? How will you
atone for these? What will you do with your sins when you face God? You say
you have no fear of death. What do you 'believe' will happen when you die?
>
>
> Boy, that felt good, I guess I needed that. Thank you cyber space for
> listening ....
> --
>
> Thomas
I'm glad you felt free to vent. I am also glad you have been honest with your
feelings. I hope your sincerity also motivates you to seek God even more.
--
Peace to you in Jesus' name.
Scott Wilcox
Sedona, Arizona, USA
Scott Wilcox
Chris Woodard wrote:
> Scott Wilcox wrote:
> >
> snip
> > I agree. Positive thinking or wishful thinking does not make anything true.
> > But there are other kinds of 'faith'. You have faith that the jet you board
> > will fly you to your destination. This is a 'faith' based on knowledge,
> > experience, & common sense. I submit that this is what christianity is about.
> > Blind faith has no use or purpose. This is not the kind of faith that is spoken
> > of in the Bible.
>
> If I might interject, what are some relevant verses on the topic?
Here are a couple i quoted yesterday in another post:
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and
shudder.
Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus
Christ whom You have sent.
This is not 'Gee, i sure hope this us true', but 'I believe because i have encountered
God'.
>
> > > YES you have faith in your religion, like I have faith in mine, BUT
> > > why are you, as a religion, trying to force feed it to me? I don't want to
> > > hear your prays at football games, I don't want to read your Ten Commandants
> > > on walls, I don't want a judge praying in the courtroom. WHY can't you
> > > understand that, why is that so hard. KEEP RELIGION AT HOME OR IN THE
> > > CHURCH, just keep it the hell out of the public view, there is alot of
> > > different faiths out there, not all of us are open about because we are in
> > > fear of losing our jobs or being running out of town. Yes, that is right, I
> > > fear you, I seen you attack others, so in the 'real' world you will never
> > > know how I believe, some times I go to church so my neighbors won't talk, I
> > > may even wear a cross so I can keep my job. That is what your religion has
> > > done to American, you have put fear in us.
> >
> > This is a very bizarre comment. Personal philosophies about life are constantly
> > in view. A moral person could complain about movies, tv shows & the barrage of
> > immorality from our media. That is someone else's 'religion', why cannot they
> > keep it at home or in their own 'church'? Humanism is rampant in the public
> > schools, yet no one complains about that. If we look at what you are really
> > saying, it seems to be 'keep christianity away!' You are probably very tolerant
> > of other religious views, why are you so hostile toward christianity?
>
> I can answer that for myself. Christianity being a majority religion
> the USofA, we get exposed to all varieties of Christians. We see
> (sometimes) the reasonable ones, and more often we see the vocal
> fruitcakes that weren't too stable to begin with and aren't improved by
> being born again. Conversion experiences of any kind (quitting smoking,
> quitting drinking, becoming born again) can turn otherwise pleasant
> people into terrible pests. They have experienced a large change in
> their lives that they think is for the better, and they can't resist
> sharing it with other people. Sometimes they get insistent. Then there
> are the ones that get to needing the feeling they got when they
> converted, almost like a junkie needs a fix, and they proselytize more
> and more aggressively to get it.
>
> Finally, there are the ones that have decided that society must be run
> along Biblical lines. These are the Christian Reconstructionists (the
> Rushdoony Loonies) and their ilk, who are perfectly welcome to their
> private viewpoint. However, when the expression of that viewpoint takes
> the form of passing laws to turn the USA into a Christian theocracy,
> then I must object. Most Americans, if they really think about it,
> don't want a Christian theocracy; it's just that they're presented with
> an unappetizing choice, between moral anarchy on the one hand and
> Savonarola-like moral starchiness on the other.
I don't want a christian theocracy to govern the nation. Jesus is already governing
the lives of His followers. I also believe that God 'ordains' every govt. leader.
But i'm not into politics. I don't even vote. I am a disgruntled ex-hippie, who no
longer fits into the establishment, and no longer cares about changing it.
But i don't understand those who are so vehemently opposed to the rights of even
radical christians to pursue their agenda. The communists did it. The gays do it.
Every pac pursues their own thing, but when christians do, they cry 'seperation of
church & state!' This country is run by those who have the money & influence to get
their agenda across. If the religious right can muster up more support than the
liberal left, then the liberal left needs to do a better job of presenting its agenda
in a more palatable form for the american public. ..more puppies & babies, etc.
Better catchwords.. you know, like 'you knock 'em up, we'll suck 'em out'.
>
> > > Lets say for a moment that I am wrong, and the Christain religion is the
> > > only way, I think on judgment day the boss will look at my life and say 'I
> > > don't blame you'. Most of you are so narrow minded to think that god just
> > > put you here as a test to see if you worship him or not. Don't you ever
> > > think that maybe there is more to it than just that. You think life is
> > > black or white, WAKE UP and buy a color TV, life is wonderful, there are so
> > > many joys to be had.
> >
> > You 'think'. This is wishful thinking. What basis do you have to suppose that
> > the God of the Bible, with His holiness & intolerance for sin will accept you
> > just because you think you weren't so bad? You are gambling big time to presume
> > your opinions on eternity & the nature of God are right, & thousands of years of
> > scriptural inspiration (or even the opinions of others, if you wish) are wrong.
> > What if *you* are wrong? Wouldn't you rather be more certain than just hoping
> > your own 'goodness' is enough to save your soul?
>
> Pascal's wager again? Remember that the Bible was written down by man,
> and reflects man's biases and frailty. The contents were fairly
> obviously tampered with by priests and bishops and other ecclesiastical
> meddlers whose main concerns were preserving the unity of Christianity
> and amplifying their own authority. You can't honestly pretend that the
> Bible was passed down as is from God and that there were no humans in
> the middle to screw it up, can you? If you can, then more power to you
> but I think you're fooling yourself. If not, then what are you doing
> evangelizing it?
I have another post on alt.bible where i discredit pascal's wager. If you'll look it
up, i think you'll see my view on the subject.
But i don't ascribe to 'obvious tampering' by anyone with the Bible. Maybe some have
tried, maybe even some passages are not original. I don't know. No one does. They
are as historically accurate as one could hope for an ancient mss such as this. But my
confidence in the Bible has more to do with my trust in God & His peace than in my
having all mental objections answered to my complete satisfaction. This is another
subject that has been discussed a lot lately on alt.bible. I have made a few comments
here & there.
>
> > I do agree with you that there are many joys in life. What makes you think that
> > christians do not share in these?
>
> Some of them don't.
Granted. There are miserable people of every philosophical persuasion.
>
> > > And yes there is happiness and joy in other religions, and not everything I
> > > do is a sin. I am not a slave to my faith, I have no fears of death.
> >
> > No, not everything you do is a sin. But have you ever sinned? How will you
> > atone for these? What will you do with your sins when you face God? You say
> > you have no fear of death. What do you 'believe' will happen when you die?
>
> Who actually knows?
Ah! A philosophical question/statement! I knew you had to be more than just a
skeptic! :)
--
Peace to you in Jesus' name.
Scott Wilcox
Sedona, Arizona, USA
quotes from the Updated New American Standard Bible unless noted
otherwise.
Pastor Frank
something wrong with the Bible, or Christians, or posts, or our glorious
Father in heaven.
Striker, you are now a convert to Acism, where Paul is regarded as a
false teacher who subverted the "true" teaching of Christ. (Ace never
supplies details) It's just, that Ace wants you to believe, on his word
alone, how very imperfect the Bible, and the whole Christian religion really
is.
Yes, you ARE to love all individuals, but not the devils possessing
them. It's a purely atheist notion that Christians should love the sinner
AND his sin. Christ was exceedingly harsh with Scribes and Pharisees, not
even bothering to distinguish them from the devils possessing them.
Pastor Frank
"I am the resurrection and the life, and he that believeth in me,
though he were dead, yet shall he live".
--Jesus in John 11:25
Striker wrote in message ...
>that
>>> the bible
Pastor Frank
>
>Translation: "We are incapable of defending our theology because we know
>it's illogical. Much easier to call those who question it "trolls", and
>label them "ignorant", then actually debating them. Have a nice day, and
>God bless."
>
>morality, forcing your prayers in the public schools, and sneaking your
>creation myth into the science class room. So, while you certainly have
>the right to remain silent, and appear incompetent in defending your
>beliefs, we also have every right to question them. Have a nice day.
>
Every time you go lambasting Christians and their beliefs, you should
keep telling us, that you are a true believer in God. Maybe if you repeat
that often enough, someone might even believe you. What do you think?
Pastor Frank
>Ace Ventura wrote:
>>
>> P.S.: Has it occurred to you why it is that people question your beliefs?
>
>and question why we do. This bothers them, so they bother us.
>
>
>Our answers are not logical? That is illogical for you to say.
>
>> morality,
>
>in the U.S. Government. Hmmmmm.
>
>
>constitute prayer at all. What we advocate is freedom of speech
>and expression, and if it is delivered in the form of a prayer, it should
>be allowed.
>
>> creation myth into the science class room.
>
>in our country's history since the inception of public schooling.
>How old are you?
>
>> the right to remain silent,
>
>
>> beliefs,
>
>criticisms do not come close to threatening our beliefs.
>
>
>bother to answer you, though, because your eyes are blinded
>and your ears do not hear. You are not really asking for
>answers. You merely want to harass.
>
sure are the original ankle-biter, aren't you?
Pastor Frank
>
>Eric to Thomas:
>You bring up the problems with our bible. You are right, there are many.
>I am not a Christian who takes the inerrant position. If I were, I would
have
>to lie a lot to cover the obvious errors in our bible.
Folks!!! Here we have the newest convert to Acism talking. "The bible
has obvious errors". Isn't that a fault-finders dream? For now he has
Christians fighting among each other about what is error in the holy Word of
God and what is true. All the while the devil is watching and egging us on,
laughing his head off, while the Good News of Jesus Christ and His grace is
NOT preached to the end of the world, and NO converts are being made. But
that's Acism for you. You draw your own conclusions. I'm just telling it
like it is!!!
Pastor Frank
"I am the resurrection and the life, and he that believeth in me,
though he were dead, yet shall he live".
--Jesus in John 11:25
>I believe the bible to be God's word to humanity, giving us what He felt
was
>needed in His attempt to bring salvation to us.
>The fact that He chose to bring us the bible through human agency and left
it up
>to human agency to perpetuate the copies, means He isn't too bothered with
>errors creeping into His book. It is my view that the bible is accurate
enough
>to get the -KEY- message to us, which is salvation through Jesus Christ.
>I returned your serve, your shot...
>Eric.
>
>Thomas wrote:
>
>> Ok, with the ball in my court, I say we should get to the core of it, the
>> bible. How could this be the word of god, there is a great deal of
>> confusion about it. The Catholics accept a bible, that contains a bible
>> that has more books than the KJV, how can this be, if the spirit of god
>> wrote this book, it shouldn't be anything to be confuse about. And why
did
>> only a small few of the books get put in the bible, isn't that called
>> censorship?
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thomas
>> Eric Christy <slid...@uswest.net> wrote in message
>> news:37C9724F...@uswest.net...
>> > Eric to Thomas:
>> > Hello Thomas, I will enter into discussion with you. If you
wish...begin.
>> > Eric.
>> >
>> > > --
>> > >
>> > > Thomas
>> >
>
Ace Ventura
>
> Ace will always go along with and treat decently those who can find
> something wrong with the Bible, or Christians, or posts, or our glorious
> Father in heaven.
Wrong Frank, I will treat decently those who treat others decently. You are
a bigot, a liar, and a fake. You claim to be a Christian, yet all you do is
spout your paranoid "you're all atheist trolls and minions of Satan" crap.
You claim you're a pastor, yet when asked to pontificate on the Ten
Commandments that _you_ insist should be posted in public schools, you said
you're "not that interested in talking about the sayings of Moses".
> Striker, you are now a convert to Acism, where Paul is regarded as a
> false teacher who subverted the "true" teaching of Christ. (Ace never
> supplies details) It's just, that Ace wants you to believe, on his word
> alone, how very imperfect the Bible, and the whole Christian religion really
> is.
Ah, there you go Frank, I have to say you never disappoint. I told Striker,
who has told you repeatedly that he is a Christian, that you'd be accusing
him of not being a Christian because he was civil to me. You came through
on my prediction with flying colors. You did the same thing with Bobbi,
another Christian in this NG, just as I predicted you would as well. Now
everyone can see you for the paranoid troll that you are, little man.
> Yes, you ARE to love all individuals, but not the devils possessing
> them. It's a purely atheist notion that Christians should love the sinner
> AND his sin. Christ was exceedingly harsh with Scribes and Pharisees, not
> even bothering to distinguish them from the devils possessing them.
What a transparent cop out for hating instead of loving: "Oh, I love the
person, I just hate the devil which they're possessed by". You are so far
removed from the teachings of Jesus that you should be embarrassed to call
yourself a Christian, let alone a pastor. I feel sorry for you.
>
> "I am the resurrection and the life, and he that believeth in me,
> though he were dead, yet shall he live".
> --Jesus in John 11:25
P.S.: Quoting bible verses in public doesn't make you a Christian, Frank,
only a hypocrite.
> >>> Ace Ventura wrote in message <37C95879...@goober.net>...
Chris Woodard
>
> Thomas wrote:
[ snip ]
> > But to have faith in something you
> > are taking a bet on it, you are sure it is right, BUT that doesn't make it
> > right.
>
> I agree. Positive thinking or wishful thinking does not make anything true.
> But there are other kinds of 'faith'. You have faith that the jet you board
> will fly you to your destination. This is a 'faith' based on knowledge,
> experience, & common sense. I submit that this is what christianity is about.
> Blind faith has no use or purpose. This is not the kind of faith that is spoken
> of in the Bible.
If I might interject, what are some relevant verses on the topic?
> > YES you have faith in your religion, like I have faith in mine, BUT
> > why are you, as a religion, trying to force feed it to me? I don't want to
> > hear your prays at football games, I don't want to read your Ten Commandants
> > on walls, I don't want a judge praying in the courtroom. WHY can't you
> > understand that, why is that so hard. KEEP RELIGION AT HOME OR IN THE
> > CHURCH, just keep it the hell out of the public view, there is alot of
> > different faiths out there, not all of us are open about because we are in
> > fear of losing our jobs or being running out of town. Yes, that is right, I
> > fear you, I seen you attack others, so in the 'real' world you will never
> > know how I believe, some times I go to church so my neighbors won't talk, I
> > may even wear a cross so I can keep my job. That is what your religion has
> > done to American, you have put fear in us.
>
> This is a very bizarre comment. Personal philosophies about life are constantly
> in view. A moral person could complain about movies, tv shows & the barrage of
> immorality from our media. That is someone else's 'religion', why cannot they
> keep it at home or in their own 'church'? Humanism is rampant in the public
> schools, yet no one complains about that. If we look at what you are really
> saying, it seems to be 'keep christianity away!' You are probably very tolerant
> of other religious views, why are you so hostile toward christianity?
I can answer that for myself. Christianity being a majority religion
the USofA, we get exposed to all varieties of Christians. We see
(sometimes) the reasonable ones, and more often we see the vocal
fruitcakes that weren't too stable to begin with and aren't improved by
being born again. Conversion experiences of any kind (quitting smoking,
quitting drinking, becoming born again) can turn otherwise pleasant
people into terrible pests. They have experienced a large change in
their lives that they think is for the better, and they can't resist
sharing it with other people. Sometimes they get insistent. Then there
are the ones that get to needing the feeling they got when they
converted, almost like a junkie needs a fix, and they proselytize more
and more aggressively to get it.
Finally, there are the ones that have decided that society must be run
along Biblical lines. These are the Christian Reconstructionists (the
Rushdoony Loonies) and their ilk, who are perfectly welcome to their
private viewpoint. However, when the expression of that viewpoint takes
the form of passing laws to turn the USA into a Christian theocracy,
then I must object. Most Americans, if they really think about it,
don't want a Christian theocracy; it's just that they're presented with
an unappetizing choice, between moral anarchy on the one hand and
Savonarola-like moral starchiness on the other.
> >
> > Lets say for a moment that I am wrong, and the Christain religion is the
> > only way, I think on judgment day the boss will look at my life and say 'I
> > don't blame you'. Most of you are so narrow minded to think that god just
> > put you here as a test to see if you worship him or not. Don't you ever
> > think that maybe there is more to it than just that. You think life is
> > black or white, WAKE UP and buy a color TV, life is wonderful, there are so
> > many joys to be had.
>
> You 'think'. This is wishful thinking. What basis do you have to suppose that
> the God of the Bible, with His holiness & intolerance for sin will accept you
> just because you think you weren't so bad? You are gambling big time to presume
> your opinions on eternity & the nature of God are right, & thousands of years of
> scriptural inspiration (or even the opinions of others, if you wish) are wrong.
> What if *you* are wrong? Wouldn't you rather be more certain than just hoping
> your own 'goodness' is enough to save your soul?
Pascal's wager again? Remember that the Bible was written down by man,
and reflects man's biases and frailty. The contents were fairly
obviously tampered with by priests and bishops and other ecclesiastical
meddlers whose main concerns were preserving the unity of Christianity
and amplifying their own authority. You can't honestly pretend that the
Bible was passed down as is from God and that there were no humans in
the middle to screw it up, can you? If you can, then more power to you
but I think you're fooling yourself. If not, then what are you doing
evangelizing it?
> I do agree with you that there are many joys in life. What makes you think that
> christians do not share in these?
Some of them don't.
> >
> >
> > And yes there is happiness and joy in other religions, and not everything I
> > do is a sin. I am not a slave to my faith, I have no fears of death.
>
> No, not everything you do is a sin. But have you ever sinned? How will you
> atone for these? What will you do with your sins when you face God? You say
> you have no fear of death. What do you 'believe' will happen when you die?
Who actually knows?
Chris Woodard
>
> Hi Chris.
>
> Chris Woodard wrote:
>
> > Scott Wilcox wrote:
> > >
> > snip
> > > I agree. Positive thinking or wishful thinking does not make anything true.
> > > But there are other kinds of 'faith'. You have faith that the jet you board
> > > will fly you to your destination. This is a 'faith' based on knowledge,
> > > experience, & common sense. I submit that this is what christianity is about.
> > > Blind faith has no use or purpose. This is not the kind of faith that is spoken
> > > of in the Bible.
> >
> > If I might interject, what are some relevant verses on the topic?
>
> Here are a couple i quoted yesterday in another post:
>
> Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and
> shudder.
> Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus
> Christ whom You have sent.
>
> This is not 'Gee, i sure hope this us true', but 'I believe because i have encountered
> God'.
Well, neither verse says anything about having encountered God. Can you
find another one that's more on point?
Too bad. We could use more people who don't want theocracy in the voter
pool.
> But i don't understand those who are so vehemently opposed to the rights of even
> radical christians to pursue their agenda. The communists did it. The gays do it.
> Every pac pursues their own thing, but when christians do, they cry 'seperation of
> church & state!' This country is run by those who have the money & influence to get
> their agenda across. If the religious right can muster up more support than the
> liberal left, then the liberal left needs to do a better job of presenting its agenda
> in a more palatable form for the american public. ..more puppies & babies, etc.
> Better catchwords.. you know, like 'you knock 'em up, we'll suck 'em out'.
I never said they didn't have the right to pursue their agenda; however,
it's also my right to oppose them and call them what I think they are -
dangerous, deluded lunatics. Religion, because of its effects (that I
listed above), needs to be kept out of government for practical
reasons. Deeply held faith is inflexible, because it is concerned with
eternal verities. This is a pluralistic country, in which all religions
are officially left alone. That means separation of church and state,
because mixing them up inevitably establishes one religion (practiced by
the majority) and winds up oppressing other ones. It always happens,
because different religions disagree strongly on basic emotional and
theological issues, and none of them can be shown to actually be *the*
true faith. So they clash. Sometimes they fight wars (like Catholics
versus Protestants, or Jews versus Moslems, or Scientologists versus
everyone) and people die in large numbers.
I think you're ignoring a lot of problems detailed elsewhere. (I can
repost something from this NG if you want.) If it's based on your
experience only, and you're honest enough to admit that, then I
certainly have no quarrel with you. I still think you're fooling
yourself, but that's just my opinion. That and $1.00 will get you a cup
of coffee at Barnies.
> >
> > > I do agree with you that there are many joys in life. What makes you think that
> > > christians do not share in these?
> >
> > Some of them don't.
>
> Granted. There are miserable people of every philosophical persuasion.
True enough, but I'm not one of them. I'm agnostic and quite happy with
my life. Minus job stress, of course, and the gentle joys of conversing
with Pastor Frank. ;-)
> >
> > > > And yes there is happiness and joy in other religions, and not everything I
> > > > do is a sin. I am not a slave to my faith, I have no fears of death.
> > >
> > > No, not everything you do is a sin. But have you ever sinned? How will you
> > > atone for these? What will you do with your sins when you face God? You say
> > > you have no fear of death. What do you 'believe' will happen when you die?
> >
> > Who actually knows?
>
> Ah! A philosophical question/statement! I knew you had to be more than just a
> skeptic! :)
Every true skeptic has to ask philosophical statements, especially of
themselves. We might be likened to secular saints, because we have
learned (and in some cases, trained scientifically) to keep in mind that
we could be wrong and to always be tentative about our knowledge.
Knee-jerk "skeptics" are really only cynics writ medium, and often they
are disappointed would-be believers. True skeptics really ask
questions, and they listen to the answers.
Striker
Pastor Frank wrote in message <7qkr83$seq$2...@nntp3.uunet.ca>...
> Ace will always go along with and treat decently those who can
find
>something wrong with the Bible, or Christians, or posts, or our
glorious
>Father in heaven.
Ace treats me decently because I treat him decently. I never said I
found anything wrong with the Bible. I believe that the Bible is 100
% correct but it's religion that is not correct. Not all religions
interpret the Bible correctly in my opinion.
> Striker, you are now a convert to Acism, where Paul is regarded
as a
>false teacher who subverted the "true" teaching of Christ. (Ace
never
>supplies details) It's just, that Ace wants you to believe, on his
word
>alone, how very imperfect the Bible, and the whole Christian
religion really
>is.
I'm not an acist, but we should follow Christ and not Paul. I believe
all Paul's teaching's to be true but that would be like saying you
must follow me because I follow Christ. Let's follow the Lord.
> Yes, you ARE to love all individuals, but not the devils
possessing
>them. It's a purely atheist notion that Christians should love the
sinner
>AND his sin. Christ was exceedingly harsh with Scribes and
Pharisees, not
>even bothering to distinguish them from the devils possessing them.
>
>Pastor Frank
Nope don't love the sin or the demon's. Love the sinner but demon's
must flee when I call out the name of Jesus. I've seen it happen. I
love you too Pastor Frank and will keep you in my prayer's.
Take care,
Striker
>"I am the resurrection and the life, and he that believeth in me,
>though he were dead, yet shall he live".
> --Jesus in John 11:25
>
>
>
>
Eric Sneddon
"I know a Duke, of Ooh."
"Edmond Dantés" wrote:
> Yeah! Bad, Bad, Ugly, Stupid, Hard Headed Christians, unlike us intelligent,
> kind, willing to listen secularists. Maybe in our ultimate kindness we
> should feed a few of them to the lions and kill some more for there beliefs.
> That will prove we are better than Christians. ; )
--
Eric
;Ź]
And Sharkey says: Hey Kemosabe! Long time no see.
He says: Hey sport. You connect the dots. You pick up the pieces.
Sharkey's Night, Laurie Anderson
Eric Christy
Dear Pastor Frank, I hope you understand the reason I say that there are errors
in our bible is, well, because there are. I'm sure that you've found some
yourself, in all your years of study. Here's the deal:
If God wanted His Word to be without error...He...would have written it and when
copies were needed...He...would have brought them to the rabbis by angels to
guarantee that no errors would creep into the text.
But, because He chose to work through human agency, He (in effect) chose to
allow errors. After all, He -is- God, and if He wanted a bible without error,
then He is fully capable of handling the printing in heaven and distribution
through angels on earth.
But, seeing that He chose to work through men, He was virtually guaranteed of
some errors creeping into His Word.
I am not an 'Acist' as you maintain. I didn't just come up with this thinking
the other day.
All of my comments reflect years of research and hard study and hard prayer.
What I want more than anything, is to know the truth. If that truth reveals
that our bible has some errors, then so be it. If God can handle it, I guess I
can too.
The conclusion is clear:
God is not as much concerned about some errors creeping into the bible as He is
about some errors creeping into our souls.
Eric.
Pastor Frank wrote:
> Eric Christy wrote in message <37C9BC3C...@uswest.net>...
> >
> >Eric to Thomas:
> >You bring up the problems with our bible. You are right, there are many.
> >I am not a Christian who takes the inerrant position. If I were, I would
> have
> >to lie a lot to cover the obvious errors in our bible.
>
> Folks!!! Here we have the newest convert to Acism talking. "The bible
> has obvious errors". Isn't that a fault-finders dream? For now he has
> Christians fighting among each other about what is error in the holy Word of
> God and what is true. All the while the devil is watching and egging us on,
> laughing his head off, while the Good News of Jesus Christ and His grace is
> NOT preached to the end of the world, and NO converts are being made. But
> that's Acism for you. You draw your own conclusions. I'm just telling it
> like it is!!!
>
> Pastor Frank
>
> "I am the resurrection and the life, and he that believeth in me,
> though he were dead, yet shall he live".
> --Jesus in John 11:25
>
> >> > > --
> >> > >
> >> > > Thomas
> >> >
> >
Pastor Frank
>>
>> Ace will always go along with and treat decently those who can
>>find something wrong with the Bible, or Christians, or posts, or
>>our glorious Father in heaven.
>
>Ace treats me decently because I treat him decently. I never said I
>found anything wrong with the Bible. I believe that the Bible is 100
>% correct but it's religion that is not correct. Not all religions
>interpret the Bible correctly in my opinion.
>
Ace doesn't have your religion. He is not a Christian. What you call
"religions" I believe to be denominations of Christianity.
Looks to me you don't believe in Satan and his aim to frustrate
Christian witness by any means possible, nor in his power to possess people
and cause them to do his will. Do you believe, had Christ "treated" the
Pharisees and Scribes "decently" He would not have been crucified and we
would not be Christian, nor saved, nor have any hope whatsoever?
>> Striker, you are now a convert to Acism, where Paul is regarded
>as a
>>false teacher who subverted the "true" teaching of Christ. (Ace
>never
>>supplies details) It's just, that Ace wants you to believe, on his
>word
>>alone, how very imperfect the Bible, and the whole Christian
>religion really
>>is.
>
>I'm not an acist, but we should follow Christ and not Paul.
That applies only where Paul contradicts Christ. Since Paul NEVER
contradicts Christ, your caution is an invention of Ace's devil to divide
Christians and get them to dispute among themselves. Satan is a powerful
deceiver, sly and devious, don't you believe that?
>
>Nope don't love the sin or the demon's. Love the sinner but demon's
>must flee when I call out the name of Jesus. I've seen it happen. I
>love you too Pastor Frank and will keep you in my prayer's.
>
Watch now all the devil possessed insisting Christians MUST love the
sinner _AND_his sin, or be called an intolerant hypocrites. You are to love
the homosexual AND his sodomy, the abortionist AND his practice of killing
babies, the addict AND his drug-taking.
The Lord bless and keep you.
Pastor Frank
Scott Wilcox
> Scott Wilcox wrote:
> snip
> > Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and
> > shudder.
> > Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus
> > Christ whom You have sent.
> >
> > This is not 'Gee, i sure hope this us true', but 'I believe because i have encountered
> > God'.
>
> Well, neither verse says anything about having encountered God. Can you
> find another one that's more on point?
Hi Chris.
Here's another:
Mt.7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,
and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE
LAWLESSNESS.'
Religious practice, without the personal, intimate knowledge of God, is useless. To have
that knowledge, there must be an encounter. As in the above verse in John 17, it is the
relationship with God.. as a person.. that brings salvation or eternal life. It is not
knowing *about* Him, but knowing Him. The passage in James shows that believing in God is
not enough. The demons believe that God exists. They mentally assent to God & His
presence.
Some people have the mistaken notion that God is pacing back & forth, wringing His hands,
saying, 'Oh, I wish people would believe I am here! He is not insecure. He does not need
validation. He is the omnipotent, almighty, creator of the universe. He reveals Himself to
whomever He chooses, when He chooses.
Mt 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You
have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
Neither wisdom nor intelligence will bring us closer to God... they may enable us to
understand a lot *about* God, but they do not draw us near to Him, personally.
Isa 66:1 Thus says the LORD, "Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then
is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?
2 "For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the
LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who
trembles at My word.
> snip
> > I don't want a christian theocracy to govern the nation. Jesus is already governing
> > the lives of His followers. I also believe that God 'ordains' every govt. leader.
> > But i'm not into politics. I don't even vote. I am a disgruntled ex-hippie, who no
> > longer fits into the establishment, and no longer cares about changing it.
>
> Too bad. We could use more people who don't want theocracy in the voter
> pool.
>
> > But i don't understand those who are so vehemently opposed to the rights of even
> > radical christians to pursue their agenda. The communists did it. The gays do it.
> > Every pac pursues their own thing, but when christians do, they cry 'seperation of
> > church & state!' This country is run by those who have the money & influence to get
> > their agenda across. If the religious right can muster up more support than the
> > liberal left, then the liberal left needs to do a better job of presenting its agenda
> > in a more palatable form for the american public. ..more puppies & babies, etc.
> > Better catchwords.. you know, like 'you knock 'em up, we'll suck 'em out'.
>
> I never said they didn't have the right to pursue their agenda; however,
> it's also my right to oppose them and call them what I think they are -
> dangerous, deluded lunatics. Religion, because of its effects (that I
> listed above), needs to be kept out of government for practical
> reasons. Deeply held faith is inflexible, because it is concerned with
> eternal verities.
But my point was that 'religion' is already in every aspect of our lives, *especially* the
Govt. It may not be organized or institutional, but in pac's, personal philosophies, etc.,
it is already present. Do not the gay lobbies push their philosophy or morality? Do not
the animal rights activists do the same? Do not the ACLU types with their agendas & 'deeply
held faith' do likewise? So i am not disturbed about the right of the religious right to
pursue theirs.
> This is a pluralistic country, in which all religions
> are officially left alone. That means separation of church and state,
> because mixing them up inevitably establishes one religion (practiced by
> the majority) and winds up oppressing other ones. It always happens,
> because different religions disagree strongly on basic emotional and
> theological issues, and none of them can be shown to actually be *the*
> true faith. So they clash. Sometimes they fight wars (like Catholics
> versus Protestants, or Jews versus Moslems, or Scientologists versus
> everyone) and people die in large numbers.
Secular states or even atheistic ones do as well. These are 'religions' or philosophies of
life as much as any institutional religion. We cannot pretend to be neutral. We should be
tolerant, & non establishing. But that should not mean we persecute a majority 'philosophy'
because it offends a minority.
> snip
> > But i don't ascribe to 'obvious tampering' by anyone with the Bible. Maybe some have
> > tried, maybe even some passages are not original. I don't know. No one does. They
> > are as historically accurate as one could hope for an ancient mss such as this. But my
> > confidence in the Bible has more to do with my trust in God & His peace than in my
> > having all mental objections answered to my complete satisfaction. This is another
> > subject that has been discussed a lot lately on alt.bible. I have made a few comments
> > here & there.
>
> I think you're ignoring a lot of problems detailed elsewhere. (I can
> repost something from this NG if you want.) If it's based on your
> experience only, and you're honest enough to admit that, then I
> certainly have no quarrel with you. I still think you're fooling
> yourself, but that's just my opinion. That and $1.00 will get you a cup
> of coffee at Barnies.
>
I'm sure i am deceived or wrong in certain areas of my belief system. I know i have been in
the past, so what would make me think i am immune now? I reason things out the best i can
with the mind i have & the evidence at hand. That is my experience. It does not guarantee
truth. It is only subjective... at least many of my extrapolations *about* the facts that i
see are. Perhaps the greatest discovery we can make is to come face to face with out own
intellectual impotence. We do not know as much as we think. We are not as insightful into
the universe as we think. We are not omniscient. I would rather be clear on a few
important things & let the rest of universal knowledge be shrouded in mystery... but i am
still searching for clarity on those important things. In the meantime, a cup of coffee
with an interesting conversationalist/philosopher sounds like fun! :)
snip
> > > Who actually knows?
> >
> > Ah! A philosophical question/statement! I knew you had to be more than just a
> > skeptic! :)
>
> Every true skeptic has to ask philosophical statements, especially of
> themselves. We might be likened to secular saints, because we have
> learned (and in some cases, trained scientifically) to keep in mind that
> we could be wrong and to always be tentative about our knowledge.
> Knee-jerk "skeptics" are really only cynics writ medium, and often they
> are disappointed would-be believers. True skeptics really ask
> questions, and they listen to the answers.
It is a pleasure to make your acquaintance, Saint Chris. :) Good luck & sound mind to you
in your quest for answers.
Chosen1446
"Why don't Christians befriend prostitutes?". All became silent. It was an
attack from within. A brother attacking the bretheren.
I had a revelation of great magnitude several years ago concerning sinners. I'm
troubled by it. God told me to go into special ministry that I don't know if I
want to. Please put on your prayer request list that Tony wants God to settle
this with him, and maybe, that I may find someone who also may have had the
same revelation given to him/her. Someone who can relate with me. To respond to
me, please email Chose...@aol.com
as I do not check the ngs I post to since I post to so many. Thank you. PS I
have another prayer req. I want a wife. Pref Irish peary brunette.
Chris Woodard
Scott Wilcox wrote:
[ snip ]
> > I never said they didn't have the right to pursue their agenda; however,
> > it's also my right to oppose them and call them what I think they are -
> > dangerous, deluded lunatics. Religion, because of its effects (that I
> > listed above), needs to be kept out of government for practical
> > reasons. Deeply held faith is inflexible, because it is concerned with
> > eternal verities.
>
> But my point was that 'religion' is already in every aspect of our lives, *especially* the
> Govt. It may not be organized or institutional, but in pac's, personal philosophies, etc.,
> it is already present. Do not the gay lobbies push their philosophy or morality? Do not
> the animal rights activists do the same? Do not the ACLU types with their agendas & 'deeply
> held faith' do likewise? So i am not disturbed about the right of the religious right to
> pursue theirs.
Well, I am disturbed by it. I think they're dangerous and deluded, and
I will attack them every chance I get. Them having their way means that
a free country will no longer be free, and they'll get their hands on
tax money that they don't deserve.
> > This is a pluralistic country, in which all religions
> > are officially left alone. That means separation of church and state,
> > because mixing them up inevitably establishes one religion (practiced by
> > the majority) and winds up oppressing other ones. It always happens,
> > because different religions disagree strongly on basic emotional and
> > theological issues, and none of them can be shown to actually be *the*
> > true faith. So they clash. Sometimes they fight wars (like Catholics
> > versus Protestants, or Jews versus Moslems, or Scientologists versus
> > everyone) and people die in large numbers.
>
> Secular states or even atheistic ones do as well. These are 'religions' or philosophies of
> life as much as any institutional religion. We cannot pretend to be neutral. We should be
> tolerant, & non establishing. But that should not mean we persecute a majority 'philosophy'
> because it offends a minority.
Secularism is a religion? Atheism is a religion? Religion requires one
or more deities and a system of belief about those deities and a system
of worship and prayer designed to influence those deities.
Ace Ventura
>
> Ace Ventura <aceve...@goober.net> wrote in message
> news:37CDCD4A...@goober.net...
>
> > > Eternal death (separation
> > > from God) is the ultimate effect of sin. Christ's death can symbolically
> > > represent several things. It represents the idea of an ultimate scapegoat,
> > > and idea that originated in the Jewish faith, and would be understood by the
> > > early Christians (who for the most part were Jewish). It represents the
> > > cycle of sin and death, except since Jesus was God, sin couldn't ultimately
> > > separate God from Himself and hence the resurrection 3 days later.
> >
> > Why would God need a "scapegoat"? He made the rules, it's certainly within
> > His power to forgive without torturing His son, isn't it?
>
> This is related to another question that I have been asking myself ... Why
> did God send Jesus into the Jewish religion? This theory of mine is still
> under development, but perhaps God chose the Jews because of the their
> history and religion. The Jews believed in one God and they existed as part
> of the Roman Empire, whose methods of government and general society is
> similiar to much of the modern world. Therefore, the Jesus story would be
> more applicable to the "world of the future" than if Jesus was sent into one
> of the other mono-theistic religious societies.
>
> Since Jesus was sent into the Jewish society, the symbolism of the scapegoat
> would make the most sense, since this was a common tradition.
>
> Yes, God makes the rules based on his infinite wisdom. It certainly is
> within his power to forgive without a scapegoat, but that would violate his
> rule 'the penalty of sin is death'. If God created perfect rules, it is
> illogical to suppose that He would violate them simply because it is
> simplier or easier for Him to do so.
He could have made different rules, ones that He wouldn't have to violate.
> > > I think that the method of death isn't as critical, if Jesus arrived in
> > > A.D. 1980 instead of 5 B.C (?), he might have left this world via the
> > > electric chair or lethal injection or whatever method of capital punishment
> > > were in effect.
> > >
> > > Remember, these are my poorly thought out ideas, and are subject to
> > > revision. :)
> >
> > I don't belittle your thoughts on this, I just question the assertion that
> > many fundamentalist Christians make that God would demand a sacrifice, and
> > then, a sacrifice of Himself in the form of His son? Why not just forgive?
>
> Again, God made the rules perfect. 'Just forgiving' seems the simplier and
> more logical idea to us. However, if it violates God's perfect rules, it is
> not logical.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You ask some interesing questions.
Ace Ventura
>
> Striker wrote in message ...
> >>
> >> Ace will always go along with and treat decently those who can
> >>find something wrong with the Bible, or Christians, or posts, or
> >>our glorious Father in heaven.
> >
> >Ace treats me decently because I treat him decently. I never said I
> >found anything wrong with the Bible. I believe that the Bible is 100
> >% correct but it's religion that is not correct. Not all religions
> >interpret the Bible correctly in my opinion.
>
> "religions" I believe to be denominations of Christianity.
> Looks to me you don't believe in Satan and his aim to frustrate
> Christian witness by any means possible, nor in his power to possess people
> and cause them to do his will. Do you believe, had Christ "treated" the
> Pharisees and Scribes "decently" He would not have been crucified and we
> would not be Christian, nor saved, nor have any hope whatsoever?
What an ass you are, Pastor Fake. One doesn't agree with you theologically,
politically, and now in who they choose to be civil to, and you question
their "qualifications" to be a Christian? You are such a ignorant bigot,
the real joke is you call _yourself_ a Christian, and a pastor to boot.
You are a fraud, and should burn your pastor certificate and go worship
the being you seem so obsessed by, satan. You mention his name more than
God's, after all, and your days seem consumed with thoughts of him, so you
might as well just convert, you're half way there already. BTW, before you
accuse me of being a secret agent for satan, I don't believe in him any
more than I believe in your concocted god made up in your own confused mind.
I do believe in God, Frank, I just don't believe in your silly ego.
> >> Striker, you are now a convert to Acism, where Paul is regarded
> >as a
> >>false teacher who subverted the "true" teaching of Christ. (Ace
> >never
> >>supplies details) It's just, that Ace wants you to believe, on his
> >word
> >>alone, how very imperfect the Bible, and the whole Christian
> >religion really
> >>is.
> >
> >I'm not an acist, but we should follow Christ and not Paul.
>
> That applies only where Paul contradicts Christ. Since Paul NEVER
> contradicts Christ, your caution is an invention of Ace's devil to divide
> Christians and get them to dispute among themselves. Satan is a powerful
> deceiver, sly and devious, don't you believe that?
> >
> >Nope don't love the sin or the demon's. Love the sinner but demon's
> >must flee when I call out the name of Jesus. I've seen it happen. I
> >love you too Pastor Frank and will keep you in my prayer's.
> >
>
> Watch now all the devil possessed insisting Christians MUST love the
> sinner _AND_his sin, or be called an intolerant hypocrites. You are to love
> the homosexual AND his sodomy, the abortionist AND his practice of killing
> babies, the addict AND his drug-taking.
> The Lord bless and keep you.
>
> Pastor Frank
>
Pastor Frank
>Eric to Pastor Frank:
>
>Dear Pastor Frank, I hope you understand the reason I say that there are
errors
>in our bible is, well, because there are.
What are you saying: There are errors in the Bible, because there are?
That's called circular reasoning. Ace got to you, didn't he, and made
himself another convert to Acism. I knew he always wanted to be a Guru with
disciples, but don't try to convince me to join you.
I will always defend the our Bible as the holy and infallible Word of
God. Whatever makes no sense to me, something likely called "Biblical
error" by atheist God-haters, I only need to wait for the Holy Spirit to
explain to me, and when I am ready to receive, He never fails to do so in
His good time.
Pastor Frank
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places."
-- Ephesians 6:12
Ace Ventura
>
> Eric Christy wrote in message <37CE4587...@uswest.net>...
> >Eric to Pastor Frank:
> >
> >Dear Pastor Frank, I hope you understand the reason I say that there are
> >errors in our bible is, well, because there are.
>
> That's called circular reasoning.
LOL! The accusation of "circular reasoning" coming from someone who claims
the bible's the infallible word of God...because the bible says so! Now that
is funny, Francis.
> Ace got to you, didn't he, and made
> himself another convert to Acism.
Hey, you ignorant wanker, I'm not the first to suggest such a thing. I know
this will come as a shock to your fragile ego, but even many Christians
don't agree with you, Frank. There are some out there who think it's more
important to worship God than to worship the bible. Obviously you're not
one of them.
> I knew he always wanted to be a Guru with
> disciples, but don't try to convince me to join you.
Ok, admit it Frank, you've been drinking again, haven't you?
> I will always defend the our Bible as the holy and infallible Word of
> God. Whatever makes no sense to me, something likely called "Biblical
> error" by atheist God-haters, I only need to wait for the Holy Spirit to
> explain to me, and when I am ready to receive, He never fails to do so in
> His good time.
You're such a blithering idiot it staggers the imagination, Frank.
1) I'm not an atheist.
2) Atheists don't believe in God, so they wouldn't be "God haters".
3) You wouldn't know Jesus if he bit you on your ass.
> "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
> against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
> against spiritual wickedness in high places."
> -- Ephesians 6:12
Hint: Posting bible verses from your computer doesn't make you a
Christian any more than your mail order certificate makes you a pastor.
Jon Brooks
today, as if you said this in the 2nd century this argument would have made
no sense, there was no Bible as we know it, and Gentile converts would not
already be believing in Hebrew Scriptures, as they had almost no idea if
they had any idea of what the fulness of the Christian faith was, as at
that time Christianity was not a full fledged religion by nonMessianic Jews
and Romans alike it was merely a Jewish sect, but to the early Christians
it was more than just a sect, it was the fullfillment of prophecy, the
fulness of God's promise, the Messianic age had come, Jews could enter into
the age of Divine Grace, and gentiles could partake in the promise of
Abraham, all men, women, slave, free, jew and gentile could now be part of
Zion, the people of God. Now as the church became predominately Gentile it
began to be considered a seperate religion, but in fact true
Christianianity is not what it is today, true Christianity as it was at
first doesnt exist at all almost, the truths of doctrine exist such as the
Deity of Christ, and the physical ressurection, but most Christians prefer
religion today over the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the fullness of the Good
News is that because of Jesus Christ one can have communion with the
Creator of the Universe in a personal way. most churches dont even allow
women to be ministers, but a close look at the early church shows that
there were female ministers in the church, one may argue that Paul said a
woman should be silent, but that was addressed to a specific problem in
that church, and the truth be told that command should go out to men as
well and children, be silent dont speak out of line, dont interupt the
service. But like i said most would rather have religion. there have been
many attempts over the years to "restore" the faith, but all have resulted
in the creation of false churches (mormonism, Jehova witnesses, etc..) a
true restoration in the church would be extreme in some respects and not as
extreme in others, for instance churches with elaborate decor and robes
should be elliminated, Easter should be called something seperate that
specifically addresses the Ressurection of the Lord, Christmas should be
dimmed down to mere gift giving lose the tree and the santa decor, and it
should be celebrated sometime in September, Saturday should be celebrated
as the Sabbath Day, and Sunday as the Ressurection Day--Sabbath a day of
rest, and Ressurection Day a day of celebration (as most churches do
today)..Pentecost (the day that the church was officially established)
should be celebrated as a sort of birthday of the church. but anyways.. i
really just said all this to show Mr. Knowitall that there are some of us
out there that know our faith is justified, and that what we believe is
truth and only those who dont study the faith end up being decieved, for
the more one learns of the faith the more it becomes justified
in Christ Jesus, His disciple Jonathan
Thomas <gf...@htcomp.net> wrote in article
<rsieoi...@corp.supernews.com>...
TJAM
> Clark Baubles wrote:
>>
>> Ace Ventura <aceve...@goober.net> wrote in message
>> news:37CDCD4A...@goober.net...
>>
>>>> Eternal death (separation from God) is the ultimate effect of
>>>> sin. Christ's death can symbolically represent several things.
>>>> It represents the idea of an ultimate scapegoat, and idea that
>>>> originated in the Jewish faith, and would be understood by the
>>>> early Christians (who for the most part were Jewish). It
>>>> represents the cycle of sin and death, except since Jesus was
>>>> God, sin couldn't ultimately separate God from Himself and
>>>> hence the resurrection 3 days later.
>>> Why would God need a "scapegoat"? He made the rules, it's
>>> certainly within His power to forgive without torturing
>>> His son, isn't it?
It's not a "rule" that is broken, rather it is a Heart thing.
The Law was given as a tutor so that we would understand that
we need God to Spiritually help us. God is teaching us by
the following steps, "first the natural, then the spiritual."
First we must understand Salvation and Justification by the
natural way, as legal issues. There is a price to pay for
breaking the law. Satan is the accuser. On our side is the
Wonderful Counselor. At issue is the debt that must be paid.
The debt is beyond our ability to pay. Jesus Christ paid
the price for us.
Then we must understand Salvation and Justification by the
spiritual way. When we "broke the law," it was because of
the condition of our hearts. In our hearts, we did not want
to follow and/or trust God. Spiritually, we did not follow
Jesus as Lord (King Jesus). God is willing to forgive, but
God, through the Holy Spirit, is working to change our heart.
BTW, the word heart is used many, many times to describe our
inner spiritual nature. Biblically, it is used both to
describe our "mind" as well as our "emotions." Heart means
ALL of who we are, our inner spiritual selves.
>> This is related to another question that I have been asking myself ...
Why
>> did God send Jesus into the Jewish religion? This theory of mine is
still
>> under development, but perhaps God chose the Jews because of the their
>> history and religion. The Jews believed in one God and they existed as
part
>> of the Roman Empire, whose methods of government and general society is
>> similiar to much of the modern world. Therefore, the Jesus story would
be
>> more applicable to the "world of the future" than if Jesus was sent into
one
>> of the other mono-theistic religious societies.
It was not that God sent Jesus into the Jewish religion, it was due
to a covenant God made with Abraham. Certainly the performance of the
Jews down through the pre-Christian centuries points out that it was not
because of the Jews that God sent the blessing, rather it was that God
is very tolerant and forgiving. BTW, considering the "christian"
performance, it's not too different today.
>> Since Jesus was sent into the Jewish society, the symbolism of the
>> scapegoat would make the most sense, since this was a common tradition.
This "tradition" is older than Judiasm. The first instance occured
when God put skins on man after the fall. The second reference we
get was when Abel, Adam's son, offered a "first born" animal offering
to God. The animals were drawn from Abel's flocks. As you might
remember, God viewed Abel's animal sacrifice more favorably than
Cain's grain sacrifice. God did not dislike Cains offering, but
Cain got envious and the rest is history...
[clip]
TJAM
Eric Christy
Would you like me to show you some errors? I can, if you wish. I can show you
specific errors in our bible. I will help you see that God allows errors and
since it's no big deal to Him, why should it be to us?
Since God created the universe, don't you think He could write a book? Of
course!
But, since God chose to have human beings write it, then maintain it by the
copies, God virtually guaranteed that errors would creep into the text.
He still gets the message out, Pastor Frank. God is more concerned about the
errors in our hearts than the errors in His book.
If Christianity stands on an inerrant bible, then it fell long before Jesus was
born!
The OT has enough errors to topple Christianity...IF...the bible has to be
inerrant to be God's Word.
Since God has allowed errors, don't you think you can too.
There is no way in heaven (or hell) you can honestly defend the bible as
inerrant.
If you try, you will be found a liar, and God doesn't like us to lie.
Don't be caught in the foolish trap Satan likes to set for the unwary
Christian: If there is even one error, toss out the whole book.
He loves pulling folks into this line of thinking, then he shows them an error
and then the unwary Christian feels compelled to do one of two things...both of
which are foolish.
1). Deny that the error exists, thereby having to promote lies
2). Throw out the bible and thereby denounce Christianity
Either one Satan will go for, depending on the personality of his victims.
Don't be caught in his silly ploy, Pastor Frank.
Open your eyes to value TRUTH more than church tradition.
Eric.
Pastor Frank wrote:
> Eric Christy wrote in message <37CE4587...@uswest.net>...
> >Eric to Pastor Frank:
> >
> >Dear Pastor Frank, I hope you understand the reason I say that there are
> errors
> >in our bible is, well, because there are.
>
> What are you saying: There are errors in the Bible, because there are?
> That's called circular reasoning. Ace got to you, didn't he, and made
> himself another convert to Acism. I knew he always wanted to be a Guru with
> disciples, but don't try to convince me to join you.
> I will always defend the our Bible as the holy and infallible Word of
> God. Whatever makes no sense to me, something likely called "Biblical
> error" by atheist God-haters, I only need to wait for the Holy Spirit to
> explain to me, and when I am ready to receive, He never fails to do so in
> His good time.
>
> Pastor Frank
TJAM
Let me make an analogy of "supporting translations that appear shaky." to
"supporting an unsteady ark." As you know, Uzzah was killed trying to
support an unsteady ark. After this, David was afraid of God and he left
the ark with Obed-Edom the Gittite instead of bringing the ark to the City
of David. The ark was important, so is the Bible. I don't believe that God
was anymore worried that the ark appeared to be unsteady than the appearance
that the translations appear to be shaky. Oxen stumble, so do people.
Just like David needed to bring the ark back to the City of David, we must
always remember where the real Word of God scriptures belong.
Unfortunately, people search the Bible as if to find salvation within them.
Instead, they should be looking to the risen Savior, the Lord Jesus, for
their salvation. I sense that you already know this truth. Our purpose is
to bring the Word of God (Jesus, capital W) [translated correctly in our
hearts] to those that haven't heard.
I believe in the innerrancy of the original inspired Bible.
I would also expect that copies of the translations would be VERY GOOD.
However, I don't believe in the innerrancy of all translations. All one has
to do is look at the JW Bible to find major misinterpretations. Of course,
the JW agenda required intentional misinterpretations, but, this at leat
points out that there are some translations that are NOT GOOD.
The trouble arrives when you find a translation that is VERY GOOD. Because
it is so GOOD, it is easy to put too much confidence in it. The KJV is
certainly one of those VERY GOOD translations. However, if you place too
much confidence in inerrancy, you will have to account for (support) the bad
number translations in the early OT. Personally, I think the bad number
translations existed before the KJV translation was made. The good news is
that there doesn't seem to have been bad translations of the text. That
coupled with multiple examples of concepts spread throughout the Bible gives
us confidence that the meaning has not been lost.
TJAM
Pastor Frank
>
>Hi,
>I'm not a typical fundamentalist Christian,
If you are "not a fundamentalist Christian" then tell us whose Biblical
interpretation you consider the ONLY true one? Calvin? Zwingli? Luther ot
some RC theologian?
All Biblical interpretations in the spirit of God are acceptable to
fundamentalists, and NONE are regarded inferior, nor superior to any other.
You may even be a total literalist, for we fundamentalists believe the Bible
to be the holy and infallible Word of God, and the Bible says, that the Holy
Spirit teaches all who seek understanding. Therefore, in time even the most
rabid literalist will find deeper spiritual meanings in the Bible and
consequently, there are no 2 Christians whose maturity in the Spirit is
exactly the same.
> Much I don't understand, but believe I shall one day.
That is a very fundamentalist Christian sentiment. If you were a member
of a main line church, you would not say such a thing, because the
explanations of your favourinte theologian would explain it, leaving no
doubt in your mind.
>I don't know the Bible all that well,
Keep reading and "studying the scriptures to show yourself approved".
Pastor Frank
"I thank thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid
these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."
-- Jesus in Matthew 11:25
Pastor Frank
of social and moral philosophy and ancient wisdom, NOT an out-dated textbook
on history or science. The Bible is filled with metaphors, allusions,
allegories, similes, oxymoron, poetry and parables. It is a work of great
literature and therefore a work of art. It uses the familiar historic and
scientific references of the day to illustrate moral issues and the
difference between right and wrong. A collection of ancient wisdom, it is an
inspired spiritual guide and not a scientific document or treatise. It is
the
work of inspired men of God.
It therefore needs interpretation by similarly inspired men of God.
Anyone in the business of finding faults, errors and inconsistencies is not
likely to find anything of value. Often such supposed errors contain the
most remarkable pearls of wisdom, to one that can see them.
Another factor is, that the devil seeks to divide Christianity and
weaken its missionary efforts. One of the most effective ways is to get
people to believe the Bible to be faulty and have Christianity beset with
internal arguments as to what is true and what is error. I for one will not
give Satan the satisfaction. Will you?
Pastor Frank
"Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they looking see not,
and hearing perceive not, neither do they understand."
-- Jesus in Matt. 13:13
Pastor Frank
of social and moral philosophy and ancient wisdom, NOT an out-dated textbook
on history or science. The Bible is filled with metaphors, allusions,
allegories, similes, oxymoron, poetry and parables. It is a work of great
literature and therefore a work of art. It uses the familiar historic and
scientific references of the day to illustrate moral issues and the
difference between right and wrong. A collection of ancient wisdom, it is an
inspired spiritual guide and not a scientific document or treatise. It is
the
work of inspired men of God.
It therefore needs interpretation by similarly inspired men of God.
Anyone in the business of finding faults, errors and inconsistencies is not
likely to find anything of value. Often such supposed errors contain the
most remarkable pearls of wisdom, to one that can see them.
Another factor is, that the devil seeks to divide Christianity and
weaken its missionary efforts. One of the most effective ways is to get
people to believe the Bible to be faulty and have Christianity beset with
internal arguments as to what is true and what is error. I for one will not
give Satan the satisfaction. Will you?
Pastor Frank
"Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they looking see not,
and hearing perceive not, neither do they understand."
-- Jesus in Matt. 13:13
Eric Christy wrote in message <37CFE405...@uswest.net>...
>Eric.
>
>
>
>Pastor Frank wrote:
>
>> Eric Christy wrote in message <37CE4587...@uswest.net>...
>> >Eric to Pastor Frank:
>> >
>> >Dear Pastor Frank, I hope you understand the reason I say that there are
>> errors
>> >in our bible is, well, because there are.
>>
Eric Christy
I never said the bible is outdated. I view it as the most important book ever
to be written.
Without it, we would not have the 'map' showing us the way to salvation and what
God expects from us and what we should expect from Him.
However, it leaves some things woefully absent.
The biggest deficit is the rationale for an eternal hell.
Why would a loving, compassionate God create an eternal hell?
Why not a remedial hell, where the lost go until they have learned to accept
Jesus as their savior.
This is the biggest stumbling block to Christianity. It's hard to speak of
God's love and eternal hell in the same breath.
Had the bible have answered -why- God created eternal hell, justifying it so we
could accept it for what it is...HORROR...then at least we could faithfully
promote it as, well, gospel.
But, the bible only warns of an eternal hell, yet without justifying its eternal
existence.
This was a serious mistake, far more than any mere error(s) we find in our
bible.
Eric.
Pastor Frank wrote:
> >Eric.
> >
> >
> >
> >Pastor Frank wrote:
> >
> >> Eric Christy wrote in message <37CE4587...@uswest.net>...
> >> >Eric to Pastor Frank:
> >> >
> >> >Dear Pastor Frank, I hope you understand the reason I say that there are
> >> errors
> >> >in our bible is, well, because there are.
> >>
Pastor Frank
>
>Eric to Pastor Frank:
>I never said the bible is outdated. I view it as the most important book
ever
>to be written.
>Without it, we would not have the 'map' showing us the way to salvation and
what
>God expects from us and what we should expect from Him.
>However, it leaves some things woefully absent.
>The biggest deficit is the rationale for an eternal hell.
>Why would a loving, compassionate God create an eternal hell?
Unfortunately time is only present in creation, and only here changes
can take place. Once we exit this existence we enter into an existence that
is NOT bound by time as we know it, and no changes can take place anymore.
Also the concept of hell is much wider than one would think. For instance
hell might be the place you want to go to, to be among your own. Liars with
liars, thieves with thieves and murderers with those who like to kill. Each
of these is only "fun" if there are plenty of victims who are NOT in the
same business. But think what it would be like if everybody likes to kill,
rob and destroy? It's hell for sure.
>Why not a remedial hell, where the lost go until they have learned to
accept
>Jesus as their savior.
>This is the biggest stumbling block to Christianity. It's hard to speak of
>God's love and eternal hell in the same breath.
>Had the bible have answered -why- God created eternal hell, justifying it
so we
>could accept it for what it is...HORROR...then at least we could faithfully
>promote it as, well, gospel.
>But, the bible only warns of an eternal hell, yet without justifying its
eternal
>existence.
Don't forget, if hell isn't eternal, then heaven cannot be eternal
either. All "eternal" means is that there is no time, nor change. We cannot
encompass "eternity" with our finite minds.
>This was a serious mistake, far more than any mere error(s) we find in our
>bible.
Pastor Frank
If you were of the world, the world would love his own.
But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you
out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."
-- Jesus in John 15:19
jeffery Carter
In the ;ater part of this message, the person called thomas stated that most
people called christain follow the example put down by Paul, [the saoint]
the only thing he fails to mension is that Paul [before he followed christ]
was A pharasee, a person whom tried to follow the old covenant and whom
persecuted christains. It is written how his conversion at the hands of
Christ came to past when he was struck down on the road to damascus [in
Syria].. And what happened when he got part of [but not the full use of] his
sight back [Paul was a Zealot of the temple] and when he realized that he
did wrong and tried to make ammends at first, people did not trust him
becasue persecuted people so long and so cruely [He was the one whom held
the coats of the murderers of the first worker of the church] .. He would
always remember that later in his life [as a christain] and call himself one
of the worst sinners... Thus bringing me to my piont [for Pauls Zelous
behavior did not change by much, just whom he worked for and weather he
supported murder or not] the real question here is, which PAul are they
patterned after? Do they even read the Bible? How much of it?
Unfortunately, those whom would shove a beleif system down someones esofigus
is not following the teachings either. People whom are presented with the
word need to consider weather they will dfollow the teachings themselves and
respond in accordance to the word .
Unfortunately for the thomas whom posted to this group, he is unaware of
what he pokes fun at - to about the same degree as some whom call themselves
christain, and yet dont search the word to find out what precisely it is
that they should beleive in to the best of their ability. And many can not
even tell you much concerning the history even surronding the bible being
unfamiluar about history in general.
I suppose if it whre up to me, I would assign the lot of them to bible
study... But then , I dont force my decisions off on others - I speak my
mind, once or a few times on the subject and if they dont accept - its
their fault. [One should not cast ones Pearls ... etc.. comes to mind]
Some people think that letting the preist do all the work is just fine, but
what if the preist doesnt quite get around to reading the entire word?
What then? Its also up to the christains themselves to read it for
themselves and understand it for themselves. Lest you not find out what god
wants you to do...
Striker <Perfect...@16pound.balls> wrote in message
news:shdy3.847$Dj2....@monger.newsread.com...
> Ace,
> You came up with a good one. I hope some of the fellow christians
> will heed your words. Following Paul instead of Jesus. That's a good
> thought some should really think about.
>
> Take Care,
> Striker
>
>
> Ace Ventura wrote in message <37C95879...@goober.net>...
> >Thomas wrote:
> >>
Peter
God. Christians are instructed to love all people.... not argue with
fools... that is why you get no responce
--Peter
Thomas <gf...@htcomp.net> wrote in message
news:rsieoi...@corp.supernews.com...
> --
>
>
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
a.drentje
Thomas heeft geschreven in bericht ...
>I have again and again challenged your religion.
No, you haven't.
> I have mocked your core beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend
it, or tried to show me the 'light'. I have asked myself why is this, and
this is what I have come up with; You can't defend it, because it is based
on lies.
No need to throw pearls before swines
>This is how I see your religion, you believe that the book called the bible
is the word of god, and that is it, everything is based off that. Most of
you have no idea about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised
to believe that the bible is a fact, and never challenged that.
Many people became Christians without being raised as one, in fact many were
killed by their relatives, who opposed Christianity.
>When you convert people to your faith, most of those people believe already
think that bible is the word of god. So what do you do when a person
doesn't believe that the bible is the word of god. You can no longer
threaten them with bodily death, like in the dark ages. You do try to scare
them with hell, saying ,'what if you are wrong, hell is a bad place to be.
You seem to be proccupied with hell. I'm not and so are many other
Christians. I don't believe in scaring someone into believing something.
Doesn't have anything to do with believing the Bible to be the Word of God.
>'When a person is a hard sale, you back off, because it makes you start
questioning your own faith.
Again: no need to throw pearls before swines. If someone doesn't want to
accept it we don't believe in forcing it to them. Some do however and that's
why quite a few folks accuse all Christians of pushing their beliefs. It
seems, we can never do it right in the opinion of others. If we keep on
talking we are accused of pushing and forcing our beliefs. If we stop
because someone doesn't want to accept it we are being accused of backing
off.
>I have nothing against your faith,
Then explain all the effort you put into trying to push your ideas on us.
>I have a hard time dealing with the 'holy rollers', I also have a hard time
with this belief that everyone else is wrong and that you are the only true
religion. There is SO many things left unexplained and your only answer to
that is 'have faith'. But why and in what?
Everyone believing in something thinks that they have the only truth, even
you. And you are very persistent about it, keep on posting in Christians
NG's. You have the right to think that, but don't deny others of that right.
We are talking about Truth, not a truth. Something is true or something is
not true. If I believe something to be true, because of evidence, I have the
right to say that I think it is the Truth. If I wouldn't believe it I would
not put my faith in it.
>So if there is a 'Christain' with a logical brain that with like a
'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really don't think
there is one out with the guts to search into your own religion.
Why not talk about your religion? Are you afraid to talk about your
beliefsystem and what proof you have for it? To keep on talking about
someone else's is a sort of backoff as well.
a.d.
nam...@my-deja.com
public life? Example Halloween is a pagan holiday. I think it was
originally a druid holiday. I think its now also a holiday for wicca
(witches). Most public schools celebrate it. If I send my child to
public school and most have a halloween party where all the kids dress
up, then should I keep my child home or should I send him and he can be
the only one not participating. I like the idea like the Quakers of
teaching people about the different religions. Then they can compare
them and with help from God and other people make a choice for
themselves.
In article <rspipo...@corp.supernews.com>,
"Thomas" <gf...@htcomp.net> wrote:
> By the way I have read and studied the bible for many years, that is
why I
> can say I don't believe in it.
>
> Errors... what a funny word, I agree it doesn't have any errors, per
se,
> what could you possibly prove it against. What I am saying is that
is
> can't be Holy Writ. Now prove that it is.
>
> Ok let me be nicer, say I live on a island that never heard of Jesus,
and
> you showed up trying to convert me, but unlike the American Natives
you
> can't kill me, how could you show me that the bible is the Holy
Writ. You
> can't, unless I have faith in it, and I will not get faith from it by
> reading it, anybody can write anything. But to have faith in
something you
> are taking a bet on it, you are sure it is right, BUT that doesn't
make it
mine, BUT
> why are you, as a religion, trying to force feed it to me? I don't
want to
> hear your prays at football games, I don't want to read your Ten
Commandants
> on walls, I don't want a judge praying in the courtroom. WHY can't
you
> understand that, why is that so hard. KEEP RELIGION AT HOME OR IN THE
> CHURCH, just keep it the hell out of the public view, there is alot of
> different faiths out there, not all of us are open about because we
are in
> fear of losing our jobs or being running out of town. Yes, that is
right, I
> fear you, I seen you attack others, so in the 'real' world you will
never
> know how I believe, some times I go to church so my neighbors won't
talk, I
> may even wear a cross so I can keep my job. That is what your
religion has
> done to American, you have put fear in us.
>
the
> only way, I think on judgment day the boss will look at my life and
say 'I
> don't blame you'. Most of you are so narrow minded to think that god
just
> put you here as a test to see if you worship him or not. Don't you
ever
> think that maybe there is more to it than just that. You think life
is
> black or white, WAKE UP and buy a color TV, life is wonderful, there
are so
> many joys to be had.
>
everything I
> do is a sin. I am not a slave to my faith, I have no fears of death.
>
> listening ....
> --
>
> Thomas
>
> "Attempts have been made to curtail freedoms enjoyed by American
pagans."
> - http://www.pagansvote.org/
>
> Here is who I am voting for what about you:
> http://www.reformist.com/bio.html
>
> ~J~ <tomy...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:A6%y3.110$28....@cletus.bright.net...
> > Agreed. There are no errors in The Holy Bible. Everything quoted
in this
> > NG as errors have been pulled out of context. I too challenge
unbelievers
> > to read the Bible in its entirety, and only then can they comment
with any
> > authority.
> > Blessings,
> > ~J~
> >
> >
> > <nam...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7qh812
$2as$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > | Question have you read any of the Bible. Isolated verses can be
> > | misleading. I challenge you to read it and to tell me if you
find any
> > | mistakes. Some of the information has even been verified by
secular
> > | sources.(Though I can't think of an exact reference at the
moment.) If
> > | you have any questions ask god to answer it or post them here.
> > | Jennifer
> > | Common Ground Alternative church
> > |
http://www.basicministries.org/heaven/christian/LoveOfGod/047/index.html
> > |
> > | In article <rsieoi...@corp.supernews.com>,
> > | "Thomas" <gf...@htcomp.net> wrote:
> > | > I have again and again challenged your religion. I have mocked
your
> > | core
> > | > beliefs, but not one of you have tried to defend it, or tried
to show
> > | me the
> > | > 'light'. I have asked myself why is this, and this is what I
have
> > | come up
is how
> > | I see
> > | > your religion, you believe that the book called the bible is
the word
> > | of
> > | > god, and that is it, everything is based off that. Most of you
have
> > | no idea
> > | > about what, where or who wrote the bible, you were raised to
believe
> > | that
convert
> > | people to
> > | > your faith, most of those people believe already think that
bible is
> > | the
> > | > word of god. So what do you do when a person doesn't believe
that
> > | the bible
> > | > is the word of god. You can no longer threaten them with bodily
> > | death, like
> > | > in the dark ages. You do try to scare them with hell,
saying ,'what
> > | if you
sale,
> > | you
> > | > back off, because it makes you start questioning your own faith.
> > | >
with
> > | the 'holy
> > | > rollers', I also have a hard time with this belief that
everyone else
> > | is
> > | > wrong and that you are the only true religion. There is SO many
> > | things left
> > | > unexplained and your only answer to that is 'have faith'. But
why
> > | and in
> > | > what?
> > | >
like a
> > | > 'friendly' debate, and at times heated, here I am. I really
don't
> > | think
> > | > there is one out with the guts to search into your own religion.
> > | >
> > | > Thomas
> > | >
> > | >
> > |
> > |
> > | Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > | Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
> >
> >
>
>
--
http://www.basicministries.org/heaven/christian/LoveOfGod/047/index.html
Common Ground Alternative Church
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Chris Woodard
bunched up over the symbolism of an entirely secular holiday, then you
could wind up living in a compound next door to a bunch of guns. It's
not necessary to withdraw from the world, no matter *what* the Bible
says that Jesus said. You can enjoy life just fine and still be true to
your religion.
Sean MacUisdin
>
> Lighten up. Let him wear a costume, dude. If you get yourself all
> bunched up over the symbolism of an entirely secular holiday, then you
> could wind up living in a compound next door to a bunch of guns.
It is only secular for those who do not celebrate it.
It's
> not necessary to withdraw from the world, no matter *what* the Bible
> says that Jesus said. You can enjoy life just fine and still be true to
> your religion.
Very true.
Air muir 's air tir,
Sean of Clan Uisdin
-------------------
If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
Remove 'mac' to reply. ()
[]
[]
<------>
||
||
"Cha till, cha till, ||
Cha till MacCriomain; ||
An cogadh no sith ||
Cha till e tuille. ||
Le airgiod no nì ||
Cha till MacCriomain; ||
Cha till e gu brath ||
Gu là na cruinne." ||
||
||
||
\/
Chris Woodard
Halloween party. I have friends who are pagan/Wiccan, and they do an
actual ritual and everything. Halloween is harmless.
Sean MacUisdin wrote:
>
> Chris Woodard wrote:
> >
> > Lighten up. Let him wear a costume, dude. If you get yourself all
> > bunched up over the symbolism of an entirely secular holiday, then you
> > could wind up living in a compound next door to a bunch of guns.
>
> It is only secular for those who do not celebrate it.
>
> It's
> > not necessary to withdraw from the world, no matter *what* the Bible
> > says that Jesus said. You can enjoy life just fine and still be true to
> > your religion.
>
nam...@my-deja.com
Halloween.
http://www.annieshomepage.com/annieshalloweenpage.html
http://www.wordandtheworld.org/commentary_4.html
http://house2house.org/halloween.html
http://www.ohills-ag.org/hallown.htm
After checking out the websites listed above do you still believe it is
just childish fun?
"Halloween has its roots in ghastly pagan demonism and witchcraft so
clearly that it is little wonder this celebration is now accompanied by
mounting suspicion, fear and wonderment. USA Today for Oct. 29, 1990,
quotes Washington witch Bryan Jordan, '(Christians) don't realize it
but they're celebrating our holiday with us ... We like it!'"
Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead
even expose them." (Ephesians 5:11).
In article <37D32E2A...@tampabay.rr.com>,
Chris Woodard <cwoo...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> True, but you'd be hard-pressed to find serious Wiccans in a school
> Halloween party. I have friends who are pagan/Wiccan, and they do an
> actual ritual and everything. Halloween is harmless.
>
> Sean MacUisdin wrote:
> >
> > Chris Woodard wrote:
> > >
> > > Lighten up. Let him wear a costume, dude. If you get yourself
all
> > > bunched up over the symbolism of an entirely secular holiday,
then you
> > > could wind up living in a compound next door to a bunch of guns.
> >
> > It is only secular for those who do not celebrate it.
> >
> > It's
> > > not necessary to withdraw from the world, no matter *what* the
Bible
> > > says that Jesus said. You can enjoy life just fine and still be
true to
> > > your religion.
> >
> > Very true.
> >
> > Air muir 's air tir,
> >
> > Sean of Clan Uisdin
> > -------------------
> > If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
> > bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
> >
> > Remove 'mac' to reply. ()
> > []
> > []
> > <------>
> > ||
> > ||
> > "Cha till, cha till, ||
> > Cha till MacCriomain; ||
> > An cogadh no sith ||
> > Cha till e tuille. ||
> > Le airgiod no nì ||
> > Cha till MacCriomain; ||
> > Cha till e gu brath ||
> > Gu là na cruinne." ||
> > ||
> > ||
> > ||
> > \/
>
--
Sean MacUisdin
>
> There are several christian pages which talk about the evils of
> Halloween.
> http://www.annieshomepage.com/annieshalloweenpage.html
> http://www.wordandtheworld.org/commentary_4.html
> http://house2house.org/halloween.html
> http://www.ohills-ag.org/hallown.htm
>
> After checking out the websites listed above do you still believe it is
> just childish fun?
>
> "Halloween has its roots in ghastly pagan demonism and witchcraft so
> clearly that it is little wonder this celebration is now accompanied by
> mounting suspicion, fear and wonderment. USA Today for Oct. 29, 1990,
> quotes Washington witch Bryan Jordan, '(Christians) don't realize it
> but they're celebrating our holiday with us ... We like it!'"
>
> Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead
> even expose them." (Ephesians 5:11).
Boy I hope you have the parts to reply to this, but as I suspect your
nothing more than a coward at heart, I hold out little hope.
I would love to know from what source you state paganism and witchcraft
have anything to do with demonism. I suspect you have some Fallwellian
source to back such a horrendous claim, otherwise I would simply have to
assume you are basing such a blatantly false idea on some flaccid
thought your neuron impaired mind churned out.
Let me make something perfectly clear, and I'll try and dumb it down for
you too. Paganism and witchcraft pre-date the coming of Christianity.
Let me say this again so you have this perfectly clear. PAGANISM AND
WITCHCRAFT PRE DATE THE COMING OF CHRISTIANITY. Now if the significance
of this fact is lost upon you, let me explain by making it as simple as
possible for you. Pagans and witch worship pre Christian deities. Do you
follow? Since the devil is a Christian invention and part of the
Christian religion, pagans will have nothing to do with it. Satanists
will, PAGANS and WITCHES DO NOT!
As well, your little quote. Nice bit of spin doctoring to mix a quote
from a witch with your mindless and personal explanation of Halloween.
They have nothing to do with each other because witches and pagans have
nothing to do with your, and I repeat, YOUR Satan.
One last thing. You do a dis-service to your Lord by ignoring his
teachings. You were commanded by your Lord Jesus, "Do not judge, lest
yea be judged!" You were commanded, "Do unto others as you would have
them do to you!" You were commanded, "Let he who is without sin, cast
the first stone!" You go against the teachings of your Lord, you ignore
his wisdom, and turn from his light. You are worse than a mere
hypocrite, you are an Anti-Christ in your bigotry!
Now don't forget to reply! Remember, your Lord hates a coward!
Air muir 's air tir,
Sean of Clan Uisdin
-------------------
If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
Remove 'mac' to reply.
()
[]
[]
[]
<------>
[]
[]
Tha Gleann Garadh ceannsgalach
connspannach cruaidh,
chumadh ri luchd aimhreit
a' chonnspaid ud suas;
'n am tharraig gu sanntach
nan lann as an truaill
mholainn do luchd gamhlais
'san am ud bhith uaibh;
bidh ceum cridheil air reing trithear -
cha ghleidh bruidhinn buaidh --
aig buidheann mhor cheannard
nach teann mo chuid uam.
[]
[]
[]
[]
\/
laura key
dead.
I chanted for Elvis to come forth. He didn't answer. Guess that pretty much
answers
the question about whether he really died or not, huh. S'pose Weekly World
News was right??
--Laura
Chris Woodard
nam...@my-deja.com
its roots in judaism. Judaism predates ALL religions. I do not
condemn people about participating in Halloween. I just want to
educate people about its roots, because most people who celebrate it
know nothing about what it stands for and the potential harms of the
holiday. The point I wish to make is that if I send my child to public
school is that on Halloween they have a Halloween party and before
Halloween they may make Halloween crafts and/or sing Halloween songs.
Should a christian child be forced to participate in Halloween.
Demonism has to deal with dead souls which is found in several
religions.
namasta
In article <37D5EF0F...@home.com>,
--
Sean MacUisdin
>
> Right it does predate christianity, but did you forget Christianity has
> its roots in judaism. Judaism predates ALL religions.
Wrong answer, sport! Judaism does not pre-date ALL religions unless you
are a Creationist. Even then, it is still a fallacy. Hop off your high
horse before opening your gate in a debate.
I do not
> condemn people about participating in Halloween. I just want to
> educate people about its roots, because most people who celebrate it
> know nothing about what it stands for and the potential harms of the
> holiday.
What utter nonsense! Add lying to the list of sins, pal. Of course you
condemn them. Why back peddle? Just because you've been called to task
on it? You state it has its roots in 'ghastly pagan demonism'. Not only
does this illustrate your astounding ignorance, but it well illustrates
your arrogant intolerance. I'm beginning to suspect you are not actually
a Christian, for no Christian can justify such arrogant dismissal of
Christ's teachings.
The point I wish to make is that if I send my child to public
> school is that on Halloween they have a Halloween party and before
> Halloween they may make Halloween crafts and/or sing Halloween songs.
> Should a christian child be forced to participate in Halloween.
Why not? What message do you send your child if you exclude them from
experiencing other religions and other beliefs, not that they will
likely be exposed to this at a child's Halloween party. You teach
intolerance and hatred - or am I wrong in assuming Christ was not
teaching these ideals? Anyway, quit blethering such pap! Since you are,
as I suspect, not a Christian, you are simply creating an academic
argument. And if you are a Christian, then in all honesty, I pity your
children.
> Demonism has to deal with dead souls which is found in several
> religions.
Well you've now proved you are not simply ignorant or intolerant, you're
just plain stupid. You do not have clue one about what you are talking
about. I'd suggest, before you launch into your next lesson on religious
cluelessness, that you do some serious research before posting your next
rant, thus saving us wasting precious time to point out your idiocy.
Think long and hard about your hatred, intolerance, and ignorance,
wannabe Christian. You'll nae get into Heaven simply because you call
yourself a Christian - you do have to ACT like one as well.
paul...@my-deja.com
> Right it does predate christianity, but did you forget Christianity
has
> its roots in judaism. Judaism predates ALL religions.
That seems unlikely, since Avram's (not yet renamed Abraham) father made
religious images (characterized in Genesis as idols, to be sure) for a
living. Thus, there had to be a religion in which those images had
significance, before Abraham became the progenitor of Israel and
established the Covenant.
Noah, and the other pre-Abrahamic patriarchs, could not have been Jews,
since they did not live under that Covenant (the Noahide Covenant of
course predates that of Abraham, but was a measure of righteousness that
applied to anyone - and indeed, "righteous gentiles" under Judaic usage
are those who adhere to the Noahide Covenant).
But Judaism can hardly be said to predate all religions.
Chris Woodard
Having never heard of them before, despite participating in nearly 35
Halloweens, I would really like an example.
Halloween has its roots in Celtic druidism, BTW, not in Judaism.
nam...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Right it does predate christianity, but did you forget Christianity has
> its roots in judaism. Judaism predates ALL religions. I do not
> condemn people about participating in Halloween. I just want to
> educate people about its roots, because most people who celebrate it
> know nothing about what it stands for and the potential harms of the
> holiday. The point I wish to make is that if I send my child to public
> school is that on Halloween they have a Halloween party and before
> Halloween they may make Halloween crafts and/or sing Halloween songs.
> Should a christian child be forced to participate in Halloween.
> Demonism has to deal with dead souls which is found in several
> religions.
> > Air muir 's air tir,
> >
> > Sean of Clan Uisdin
> > -------------------
> > If anyone is looking for Sean of Clan Uisdin, he can be found in the
> > bathtub mulling over his thoughts wi' a dram o' Glen Ord.
> >
> > Remove 'mac' to reply.
> >
> > ()
> > []
> > []
> > []
> > <------>
> > []
> > []
> > Tha Gleann Garadh ceannsgalach
> > connspannach cruaidh,
> > chumadh ri luchd aimhreit
> > a' chonnspaid ud suas;
> > 'n am tharraig gu sanntach
> > nan lann as an truaill
> > mholainn do luchd gamhlais
> > 'san am ud bhith uaibh;
> > bidh ceum cridheil air reing trithear -
> > cha ghleidh bruidhinn buaidh --
> > aig buidheann mhor cheannard
> > nach teann mo chuid uam.
> > []
> > []
> > []
> > []
> > \/
> >
>
nam...@my-deja.com
standpoint, whether the people before
Abraham and the convenant are Jews or pre Jews is unimportant.
Only the Truth (in God and Jesus) is important
In article <7rjonl$8gt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
paul...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> > Right it does predate christianity, but did you forget Christianity
> has
> > its roots in judaism. Judaism predates ALL religions.
>
made
> religious images (characterized in Genesis as idols, to be sure) for a
> living. Thus, there had to be a religion in which those images had
> significance, before Abraham became the progenitor of Israel and
> established the Covenant.
>
> Noah, and the other pre-Abrahamic patriarchs, could not have been
Jews,
> since they did not live under that Covenant (the Noahide Covenant of
> course predates that of Abraham, but was a measure of righteousness
that
> applied to anyone - and indeed, "righteous gentiles" under Judaic
usage
> are those who adhere to the Noahide Covenant).
>
> But Judaism can hardly be said to predate all religions.
>
Sean MacUisdin
>
> Judaism has its roots before other religions from a biblical
> standpoint, whether the people before
> Abraham and the convenant are Jews or pre Jews is unimportant.
Correct, again, only if you are a Creationist.
> Only the Truth (in God and Jesus) is important
Then the truth is not really important is it?
Softchip Trooper
> > > WITCHCRAFT PRE DATE THE COMING OF CHRISTIANITY. Now if the
> > significance
> > > of this fact is lost upon you, let me explain by making it as simple
> > as
> > > possible for you. Pagans and witch worship pre Christian deities. Do
> > you
> > > follow? Since the devil is a Christian invention and part of the
> > > Christian religion, pagans will have nothing to do with it. Satanists
> > > will, PAGANS and WITCHES DO NOT!
> > >
Interesting statement !! Unfortunately not based in fact !
Leo Louis Martello says that statement is wrong; he follows the Stregan
path of Witchcraft.
"Aradia: Gospel of the Witches" is a text RECOMMENDED by Dianistic
Wiccan Covens ALL OVER the U.S. and it clearly states that "the Horned
God, Lucifer, Hunter of the Night, Consort to Our Mother Goddess" is an
acceptable and proper form of address.
But then you would deny the basis of Samhein, Yule etc., etc., etc. if
it so pleased you just for the opportunity to prove that you have
evolved sufficiently to have one brain-cell actually working. (i.e. - to
prove that you (in your own perception) are smarter than Einstein)
Okay. If that's your position, I can live with that. I don't have to
LIKE the damage that you are doing to yourself (and I DON'T), but "You
can lead a horse to water....", and all that.
Respectfully
Robert D. Johnson
"softchip Trooper"
Sean MacUisdin
>
> > > > Let me say this again so you have this perfectly clear. PAGANISM AND
> > > > WITCHCRAFT PRE DATE THE COMING OF CHRISTIANITY. Now if the
> > > significance
> > > > of this fact is lost upon you, let me explain by making it as simple
> > > as
> > > > possible for you. Pagans and witch worship pre Christian deities. Do
> > > you
> > > > follow? Since the devil is a Christian invention and part of the
> > > > Christian religion, pagans will have nothing to do with it. Satanists
> > > > will, PAGANS and WITCHES DO NOT!
> Interesting statement !! Unfortunately not based in fact !
Wrong!
> Leo Louis Martello says that statement is wrong; he follows the Stregan
> path of Witchcraft.
I thought you said the statement was wrong. Make up your mind.
> "Aradia: Gospel of the Witches" is a text RECOMMENDED by Dianistic
> Wiccan Covens ALL OVER the U.S. and it clearly states that "the Horned
> God, Lucifer, Hunter of the Night, Consort to Our Mother Goddess" is an
> acceptable and proper form of address.
What nonsense - make up some more lies while you at it. Lucifer is your
creation, princess.
> But then you would deny the basis of Samhein, Yule etc., etc., etc. if
> it so pleased you just for the opportunity to prove that you have
> evolved sufficiently to have one brain-cell actually working. (i.e. - to
> prove that you (in your own perception) are smarter than Einstein)
Read your statement, pinhead. If it is not possible for you to muster
the sufficient neurons in your flaccid intellect to make a logical, even
reasonable statement, then please go play elsewhere and let the adults
continue. If you are still confused as you mash your keyboard in a
mindless frenzy, then I will further illuminate the most darkest corners
of your vacuous cranium. WHAT IS YOUR POINT IN THIS STATEMENT? Deny what
basis to Samhain and Yule? Do you have clue one as to what you are even
talking about? I suspect not.
> Okay. If that's your position, I can live with that. I don't have to
> LIKE the damage that you are doing to yourself (and I DON'T), but "You
> can lead a horse to water....", and all that.
Hate the sin but love the sinner, right? Do you love me?
laura key
myself
(for the past 30 years or so), I am well acquainted with the so-called "horned
god".
Cernunnos was worshipped by the iron age Celts all across Europe as late as the
first century AD, and his worship began centuries before that.
The Celts made numerous models, or icons, of their various gods, and there are
over
60 depicting Cernunnos, from all over Europe. We only know his name because it
is
carved on a single one of these, made by sailors from the Gallic Parisii tribe
(from whom Paris got its name) in the first century AD, by which time Gaul
(modern France)
had become a Roman province. The earliest image of him that has been found was
carved
on rock in Northern Italy in the 4th century BC. We do not know how widespread
the use
of this exact name was: it is possible that this was the name for this antlered
god to no-one
but the Parisii themselves, but the structure of the name suggests otherwise.
Cornu in modern French means "horned, because modern French has grown from
the Latin language imposed upon them by the Romans. The Latin for horn is also
cornu.
The Romans had a habit of changing local names to fit the Roman pattern: most
Roman names end in us. So Cernunnos is a Roman name meaning Horned One.
It was probably the new Romanised name given by the Gauls to all their very old
horned
gods, in which case its use may have been widespread through out Gaul after it
became
a Roman province. The images of him are unusually consistent. His main
attribute are his
horns, those of a stag. He is usually portrayed as a mature man with long hair
and a beard.
He wears a torc: this was an ornate neck-ring worn by the Celts to denote
nobility. He often
carries other torcs in his hands or hanging from his horns. He is usually
portrayed seated
and cross-legged, in the meditative or shamanic position. Cernunnos is nearly
always
portrayed with animals, in particular the stag. He is also frequently
associated with a
unique beast that seems to belong only to him: a serpent with the horns of a
ram. Less often
he is associated with other beasts, including bulls, dogs and rats. The
ram-horned serpent
is particularly interesting. The serpent occurs in myths all across the world,
and is nearly always
associated with knowledge. Usually these associations are purely pagan, but
remember
that it was a serpent that tempted Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge in the
legend. It is
also commonly associated with death and the otherworld, and is hence described
as cthonic.
The Stag Lord, The Horned God of the Hunt, The Lord of the Forest...of all the
Celtic
divinities (with the exception of Danu) none has caught the imagination of
modern pagans
so much as Old Horny himself. We should not be so surprised to find ancient
gods there
who might be cousins of our own local horned deity. This ancient image came
from
Mohenjo Daro, in the North-West of modern India on the River Indus, and is
believed
to have been made around 2,000 BC. It is thought to be the seated figure of a
very
early version of Pashupati, the Lord of the Animals in Hindu mythology,
peacefully
surrounded by his beasts. The resemblance is striking. Modern paganism
encompasses
a very broad range of gods and ideas, but at the centre of the European
tradition is the idea
of the two prime forces of nature and their embodiment as the goddess and the
god. Most
European pagans hold these two archetypes somewhere in their personal
mythology.
The Horned God. He is the horned god of the hunt and of the forest, lord of the
sabbat
and of the underworld. He is the embodiment of wild nature and the male
principle.
For centuries Christianity has equated the horned one with the devil, the
Christian god of evil.
However, when the Christians were not demonising the old gods, they were
quietly recruiting them. A good example of this can be found in Carnac in
Brittany,
France, is a small town famous for its proximity to hundreds of menhirs placed
in neat
rows, several miles long, during the bronze age. Although now a Christian
community
there are records of ancient pagan rites being performed amongst the stones by
the
local villagers as late as the end of the 19 th century. In the centre of the
town is a
catholic church dedicated to Saint Cornely. He is the patron saint of horned
beasts.
Saint Cornely of horned beasts? The town of Carnac ? Cernunnos the horned god
of the hunt ? The old pagan deity has been picked up, cleaned up, dressed up,
de-horned and canonised. When Christian priests found that the heavy approach
was not working and that the local villagers were still worshipping pagan gods,
then they fell back on plan B. Catholic versions of the old gods were created.
There is no way of knowing how many Catholic saints were created out of pagan
gods.
There were a lot of pagan gods, and there are thousands of saints.
For further reading, please go to your library and read the books/lectures of
Dr. Joseph Campbell, such as "Transformations of Myth Through Time", or
"Hero With a Thousand Faces", or the four volume set "The Masks of God".
In 1988 The Joseph Campbell Chair of Comparative Mythology is established
at Sarah Lawrence College. A bibliography of his books and lectures can be
located at: http://www.pacifica.edu/cglibrary/campbib.html
--Laura
Softchip Trooper wrote:
> > > > Let me say this again so you have this perfectly clear. PAGANISM AND
> > > > WITCHCRAFT PRE DATE THE COMING OF CHRISTIANITY. Now if the
> > > significance
> > > > of this fact is lost upon you, let me explain by making it as simple
> > > as
> > > > possible for you. Pagans and witch worship pre Christian deities. Do
> > > you
> > > > follow? Since the devil is a Christian invention and part of the
> > > > Christian religion, pagans will have nothing to do with it. Satanists
> > > > will, PAGANS and WITCHES DO NOT!
> > > >
>
> Interesting statement !! Unfortunately not based in fact !
>
> Leo Louis Martello says that statement is wrong; he follows the Stregan
> path of Witchcraft.
>
> "Aradia: Gospel of the Witches" is a text RECOMMENDED by Dianistic
> Wiccan Covens ALL OVER the U.S. and it clearly states that "the Horned
> God, Lucifer, Hunter of the Night, Consort to Our Mother Goddess" is an
> acceptable and proper form of address.
>
> But then you would deny the basis of Samhein, Yule etc., etc., etc. if
> it so pleased you just for the opportunity to prove that you have
> evolved sufficiently to have one brain-cell actually working. (i.e. - to
> prove that you (in your own perception) are smarter than Einstein)
>
> Okay. If that's your position, I can live with that. I don't have to
> LIKE the damage that you are doing to yourself (and I DON'T), but "You
> can lead a horse to water....", and all that.
>
Sean MacUisdin
(snip for brevity)
An excellent and informative post, Laura.
Softchip Trooper
A Celt I might hear, if she truly follows her family traditions. A
Dionist, being the kind that uses "Nah-Noo Nah-Noo" as a valid appeal
unto your Goddess, I fear I have not matured enough to put up with.
I also note how long your memory is. I wish good unto you,
irregardless. When you remember your own statements, get back to me.
:^)
Robert D. Johnson
"Softchip Trooper"
Sean MacUisdin
> A Celt I might hear, if she truly follows her family traditions. A
> Dionist, being the kind that uses "Nah-Noo Nah-Noo" as a valid appeal
> unto your Goddess, I fear I have not matured enough to put up with.
Obviously nothing will make you happy. No matter how it is phrased,
regardless of what facts are presented, Christbots such as yourself will
not listen. Far too many years of intolerance and hatred for you to get
over.
Remember what I said, it's not enough to say you're a Christian, you
also have to act like one. With that in mind, I say, 'Good luck getting
into heaven.'
> I also note how long your memory is. I wish good unto you,
> irregardless. When you remember your own statements, get back to me.
> :^)
I do very well remember my statements. Wiccans 'DO NOT' worship Lucifer.
Wiccans may worship Cerrunos, I know I do, but 'he' is NOT Lucifer.
Lucifer is a Christian creation, and without a doubt you may have used
Cerrunos and Pan as your models for your concept of Lucifer, but we 'DO
NOT' worship 'your' Lucifer. Lucifer and Cerrunos have nothing to do
with each other. Complicated stuff for you, I know.
Anyway, when 'you' remember Christ's statements, 'you' can get back to
me.