Pope Julius II contracted syphilis
Simon Wagstaff
world". At $17 a pop, I doubt you'd be able to afford them all!
Keeping up with the apoclyptic mood of the move "Twelve Monkeys",
this is a summary of the history of the origin of the disease
syphilis. Politics to note: armies carry diseases with them.
Christians to note: The Pope and several Cardinals contract
the disease. No wonder Christendom was torn into little
pieces by the Reformation. The churchmen had more vices than
simply avarice!
Begin liberal "fair use" ---------
WILL DURANT
THE STORY OF CIVILAZTION: PART V
THE RENAISANCE
It is often the fatality of medicine that its heroic advances in therapy are
balanced -- almost pursued -- by new diseases. Smallpox and measles, hardly
known in Europe before the sixteenth century, now came to the fore;
Europe experienced its first recorded influenza epidemic in 15l0; and
epidemics of typhus -- a disease not mentioned before 1477 -- swept Italy in
1505 and 1528. But it was the sudden appearance and rapid dissemination of
syphilis in Italy and France toward the end of the fifteenth century that
constituted the most startling phenomenon and test of Renaissance medicine.
Whether syphilis existed in Europe before 1493, or was brought from
America by the return of Columbus in that year, is a matter still debated
by the well informed, and not to be settled here.
Certain facts support the theory of an indigenous European origin. On
July 25, 1463, a prostitute testified in a court at Dijon that she had
dissuaded an unwelcome suitor by telling him that she had le gros mal --
not further described in the record. On March 25, 1494, the town crier
of Paris was directed to order from the city all persons afflicted with
la grosse verole. We do not know what this "great pox" was; it may have
been syphilis. Late in 1494 a French army invaded Italy; on February 21,
1495, it occupied Naples; soon afterward a malady became rampant there,
which the Italians called il morbo gallico, "the French disease," alleging
that the French had brought it into Italy. Many of the French soldiers
were infected with it; when they returned to France, in October, 1495,
they scattered the disease among the people; in France, therefore, it was
called le mal de Naples, on the assumption that the French army had
contracted it there. On August 7,1495, two months before the return of
the French army from Italy, the Emperor Maximilian issued an edict in
which mention was made of malum francicum; obviously this "French disease"
could not be ascribed to the French army not yet returned from Italy.
From 1500 on, the term morbus gallicus was used throughout Europe to mean
syphilis. We may conclude that there are suggestions, but no convincing
evidence, that syphilis existed in Europe before 1493.
The case for an American origin is based upon a report written between
1504 and 1506 (but not published till 1539) by a Spanish physician, Ruy
Diaz de l'Isla. He relates that on the return voyage of Columbus the pilot
of the admiral's vessel was attacked by a severe fever, accompanied with
frightful skin eruptions, and adds that he himself, at Barcelona, had treated
sailors infected with this new disease, which, he says, had never been known
there before. He identified it with what Europe was calling morbus gallicus,
and contended that the infection had been brought from America.
Columbus, on his first return from the West Indies, reached Palos, Spain,
on March l5, 1493. In that same month Pintor, physician to Alexander VI,
noted the first appearance of the morbus gallicus in Rome.' Almost two
years elapsed between the return of Columbus and the French occupation
of Naples -- sufficient time for the disease to spread from Spain to Italy;
on the other hand, it is not certain that the plague that ravaged Naples in
1495 was syphilis. Very few bones whose lesions may be interpreted as
syphilitic have been found in pre-Columbian European remains; many such
bones have been found among the relics of pre-Columbian America.
In any case the new disease spread with terrifying speed. Caesar Borgia
apparently contracted it in France. Many cardinals, and Julius II himself,
were infected; but we must allow the possibility, in such instances, of
infection by innocent contact with persons or objects bearing the active germ.
Skin pustules had long since been treated in Europe with mercurial ointment;
now mercury became as popular as penicillin is in our day; surgeons
and quacks were called alchemists because they turned mercury into gold.
Prophylactic measures were taken. A law of 1496 in Rome forbade barbers
to admit syphilitics, or to use instruments that had been employed by or on
them. More frequent examination of prostitutes was established, and some
cities tried to evade the problem by expelling courtesans; so Ferrara and
Bologna banished such women in 1496, on the ground that they had "a
secret kind of pox which others call the leprosy of St. Job." The Church
preached chastity as the one prophylaxis needed, and many churchmen
practised it.
.....................TEAR.ALONG.THE.DOTTED.LINE......................
Under construction. Greek gnomes go here: Gnothi seauton, Meden agan
Latin gnomes go here: Omnia vincit amor, Mens sana in corpore sano
Jill B.
Dyga) wrote:
> I've got news for you anti-CAtholics. Even the first pope sinned, and it
> was much worse than sexual immorality, it was denying Christ, not once
> but three times! Thank God He is more forgiving then you; after all, He
> did make that sinner the head of His Church.
> Peter Michael Dyga
> (afn0...@afn.org)
He said "And upon this rock (Himself, Christ) I will build MY (not
Peter's) church." Peter's name means a pebble. Jesus is the Rock (1 Cor.
10:4), and He will build His church, which means a called out, local
assembly of believers, not a group of unregenerated people looking to a
central authority in Rome sitting on seven mountains, filled with
abominations (Rev. 17).
Saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9),
Jill B.
Peter M. Dyga
: In article <4cskkn$o...@huron.eel.ufl.edu>, cea...@peni.circa.ufl.edu
: (Simon Wagstaff) wrote:
: Simon believes in prodigious crossposting I see. Alt.fan.sandra-bullock?!?
: Alt.penguin-fetish.recovery ?!? Yes, you're obviously quite the comedian
: Beavis. Just don't quit your day job. If you have one that is.
: As a service to the more enlightened and experienced usenet posters, I've
: deleted those with no relevance to your post. Hope you don't mind.
: Anyways, the Roman Pope's contracted much more than syphillis. They
: also contracted large armies to repel any threats to their hegemony. Some
: also fathered illegimate children. Some were openly non-religious, only
: intent on enriching their own corrupt wallets. And the politics that went
: on behind elections of the Popes...a whole 'nother story.
I've got news for you anti-CAtholics. Even the first pope sinned, and it
was much worse than sexual immorality, it was denying Christ, not once
but three times! Thank God He is more forgiving then you; after all, He
did make that sinner the head of His Church.
--
Peter Michael Dyga
(afn0...@afn.org)
K.M.G.
>
> He said "And upon this rock (Himself, Christ) I will build MY (not
> Peter's) church." Peter's name means a pebble. Jesus is the Rock (1 Cor.
> 10:4), and He will build His church, which means a called out, local
> assembly of believers, not a group of unregenerated people looking to a
> central authority in Rome sitting on seven mountains, filled with
> abominations (Rev. 17).
>
> Saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9),
>
> Jill B.
The seven hills on which the woman sits are NOT the hills in Rome.
They are the seven kingdoms of the earth.
The "Whore" of Revelation is NOT the RCC.
The "Whore" is the unified satanic political/religious power, which may
include the RCC, but is not limited to.
--
† Kevin Matthew Gresh ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
††††† VIK...@POSTOFFICE.PTD.NET ¤I am the resurrection, and the life: he
† 1011 Philadelphia Terrace ¤that believeth in me, though he were
† Birdsboro, Pa. 19508 ¤dead, yet shall he live: (John 11:25)
Jill B.
Dyga) wrote:
> Jill B. (ra...@nilenet.com) wrote:
> : In article <4ctuht$3...@huron.eel.ufl.edu>, afn0...@afn.org (Peter M.
> : Dyga) wrote:
>
> : > I've got news for you anti-CAtholics. Even the first pope sinned, and it
> : > was much worse than sexual immorality, it was denying Christ, not once
> : > but three times! Thank God He is more forgiving then you; after all, He
> : > did make that sinner the head of His Church.
> : > Peter Michael Dyga
> : > (afn0...@afn.org)
>
> : He said "And upon this rock (Himself, Christ) I will build MY (not
> : Peter's) church."
>
> Congratulations Jill on coming around to the realization that the
> Catholic Church is the Church of Christ.
Are you obtuse, Peter? The bride of Satan, you mean. (Rev. 17). The
"woman" is a "city" (verse 18) who sits on seven mountains and is drunk
with the blood of the martyrs and the true saints of God and whose symbol
is a golden cup (chalice) filled with abominations (heresies) and whose
colors are purple and scarlet. (Rev. 17:18). No other "city" in the world
qualifies for that title like Rome. (:->
Peter was not any "first pope". Matthew 16 says that Jesus Christ is the
Rock and He will build His church, not a church based on Peter. The word
church - ecclesia - means a called out local assembly of believers in
Christ, not a Roman Catholic priesthood with a central authority based in
a palace in Rome. Jesus wore a crown of thorns; the popes wear crowns of
jewels. Not exactly a biblical example, not exactly "following in the
footsteps of the Master."
> : Peter's name means a pebble.
>
> In Greek, too bad Jesus spoke Aramaic (Kepha).
But the inspired Scripture was written in Greek, not Aramaic. If Matthew
who was the instrument and the Holy Spirit who was the author wanted the
gospel to be written in Aramaic he would have done so. Matthew was
bi-lingual. If Matthew who was the instrument and the Holy Spirit who was
the author wanted Matthew 16:18 to show clearly that Jesus was saying He
was basing His church on Peter as a "pope" (when Peter was a Jew under the
law and not a Roman Gentile in the age of grace), the verse would have
been written like this:
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, the rock, and upon you,
this rock, I will build my church." But it doesn't say that. It says, "And
I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (a pebble), and upon this rock
(myself, Christ, who is the "rock", which Paul corroborates later in 1
Cor. 10:4) I will build my (Jesus's) church." Not "Peter's" church.
Matthew often inserted Aramaisms into his Greek text like "talitha cumi"
and then proceeded to interpret the Aramaism back into the Greek: "which
means...." Why didn't Matthew do this here in Matthew 16:18? Why was it
all written in Greek with no further interpretation? He could have
inserted an Aramaic name here and written, "That thou art Kipha, which
means...." But he didn't.
> Hmm, I seem to recal St. Paul writing a few letters to a "group of
> unregenerated people looking to a central authority (Paul himself perhaps
> as that authority) in Rome (oops, St. Peter I supose) sitting on seven
> mountaints..."
Paul wrote to Christians in local assemblies of baptized believers: the
local church at Rome, the local church at Ephesus, the local church at
Corinth, the local church at Galatia, the local church at Thessolinki,
etc. None of these local churches ever looked to Rome for any central
authority.
Frank Welder
> I've got news for you anti-CAtholics. Even the first pope sinned, and it
> was much worse than sexual immorality, it was denying Christ, not once
> but three times! Thank God He is more forgiving then you; after all, He
> did make that sinner the head of His Church.
I was a catholic and I attend church almost everyday said the rosary
prayer and confess my sins to the priest. If I was to die back then I
would of been in "HELL". Thank God for His saving power and grace. I know
the true Jesus who is risen and not hanging on some cross. Jesus said "I
am the 'way', the 'truth' and the 'life' not some false satan throne
catholic church. My pray for the people who believe in the catholic church
is "Come out of her, God`s people, that ye be not partakers of her sins,
and that ye receive not her plaques,
Mark Johnson
>In article <4d0k5t$b...@huron.eel.ufl.edu>, afn0...@afn.org (Peter M.
>Dyga) wrote:
>> Jill B. (ra...@nilenet.com) wrote:
>> : In article <4ctuht$3...@huron.eel.ufl.edu>, afn0...@afn.org (Peter M.
>> : Dyga) wrote:
>>
>> : > I've got news for you anti-CAtholics. Even the first pope sinned, and it
>> : > was much worse than sexual immorality, it was denying Christ, not once
>> : > but three times! Thank God He is more forgiving then you; after all, He
>> : > did make that sinner the head of His Church.
>> : > Peter Michael Dyga
>> : > (afn0...@afn.org)
>>
>> : He said "And upon this rock (Himself, Christ) I will build MY (not
>> : Peter's) church."
>>
>> Congratulations Jill on coming around to the realization that the
>> Catholic Church is the Church of Christ.
>Are you obtuse, Peter?
Are you dense, Jill (it's probably not the first time I've asked,
y'know)?
>The bride of Satan, you mean.
The church of Jillbee, perhaps?
>(Rev. 17). The
>"woman" is a "city" (verse 18) who sits on seven mountains and is drunk
>with the blood of the martyrs and the true saints of God and whose symbol
>is a golden cup (chalice) filled with abominations (heresies) and whose
>colors are purple and scarlet. (Rev. 17:18). No other "city" in the world
>qualifies for that title like Rome. (:->
Pretty standard, there, unless I'm missing something. And lots have
figured Rome. I still don't see why. Why not San Francisco (makes more
sense), er, Willie Brown City? I mean if it's all got something to do
with the UN, or some successor organization, why not in SF, right? And
do seven hills mean actual hills? Why?
>Peter was not any "first pope".
Was too.
>Matthew 16 says that Jesus Christ is the
>Rock and He will build His church, not a church based on Peter.
But The Church is God's, and does not belong to St. Peter.
>The word
>church - ecclesia - means a called out local assembly of believers in
>Christ, not a Roman Catholic priesthood with a central authority based in
>a palace in Rome.
That's just how it worked out, according to God's Will. Who woulda
figured faith in the outlawed Christ would one day conquer the very
empire that executed Him? Anyway, where does God's Will fit into your
theology, Jill? Did The Holy Spirit die, long ago. Or is God still
very real, and actively supporting and intervening in all we see and
don't see? Why your hatred for The Church, Jill? Could it be there's a
reality there that offends you, despite your talk of being 'saved' for
Heaven? That's a serious question, and I _am_ just asking.
>Jesus wore a crown of thorns; the popes wear crowns of
>jewels. Not exactly a biblical example, not exactly "following in the
>footsteps of the Master."
If it's unholy to regale the holder of the office in fine things, then
where's your criticism of OT Kings, who obeyed The Father? or does
their 'dispensation' dispense them of that? No, the Pope is not a
King, since I'd have to clarify that for one so contentious as
yourself. But the office is that of Pope. He lives simply. His office
is great. You confuse the man with the office, and so many Popes have,
themselves, I'm sure. But the difference remains, as it does for most
any public office.
>> : Peter's name means a pebble.
>>
>> In Greek, too bad Jesus spoke Aramaic (Kepha).
>But the inspired Scripture was written in Greek, not Aramaic. If Matthew
>who was the instrument and the Holy Spirit who was the author wanted the
>gospel to be written in Aramaic he would have done so. Matthew was
>bi-lingual. If Matthew who was the instrument and the Holy Spirit who was
>the author wanted Matthew 16:18 to show clearly that Jesus was saying He
>was basing His church on Peter as a "pope" (when Peter was a Jew under the
>law and not a Roman Gentile in the age of grace), the verse would have
>been written like this:
>"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, the rock, and upon you,
>this rock, I will build my church."
But why would _that_ be? The Church is Our Lord's, The Father's, The
Holy Spirit's to guide, inform and protect. Peter was the first Pope,
the very fact of which suggests to you, no doubt, that he was the
first heretic.
>But it doesn't say that. It says, "And
>I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (a pebble), and upon this rock
>(myself, Christ, who is the "rock", which Paul corroborates later in 1
>Cor. 10:4) I will build my (Jesus's) church." Not "Peter's" church.
And it still isn't.
>Saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9),
And a faith manifest in deeds?
>Jill B.
Peace.
<goofy graphic here> 'There's so much more to life', you'll hear,
but you know you're where God wants you to be.
Fall has come again.
-- Gary Lenaire (lead, Tourniquet)
---------------------------------------------------
Mark Johnson 1023...@compuserve.com
Fr. John W. Morris +
most basic teaching of the Holy Scriptures. St. Peter denied Christ
three times. However, Christ forgave him. St. John 21:15-19.
I am not a Roman Catholic and do not believe that the Pope has universal
jurisdiction. However, St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. Therefore
the Bishop of Rome is a successor to St. Peter. Notice that I wrote "a
successor" His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius IV of Antioch is also a
successor to St. Peter.
Fr. John W. Morris.
Dan Bray
B.) writes:
:>
:>In article <30F3E8...@postoffice.ptd.net>, "K.M.G."
:><vik...@postoffice.ptd.net> wrote:
:>
:>> The seven hills on which the woman sits are NOT the hills in Rome.
:>> They are the seven kingdoms of the earth.
:>That's not what the chapter says. It says the "woman" is a "whore" (verse
:>1) who "sits" on the beast (the antichrist - verse 3), and this "woman" is
:>a "city" (Verse 18) who "sits" on "seven mountains" (verse 9), and that
:>this woman who is a city is "drunken with the blood of the saints, and
:>with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (verse 6), her symbol is a "golden
:>cup" (chalice) filled with "abominations" (heresies), decked with precious
:>stones and pearls (she is rich) and her colors are purple and scarlet
:>(verse 4). The Roman soldiers put two robes on Jesus Christ at His
:>whipping and one color was purple and the other scarlet. The "woman" is a
:>"city" who sits on seven mountains. In no other "city" are all these
:>prophecies fulfilled as the city of Rome. John "marvelled" when he saw
:>this (professing "Christians" in a religious monstrosity murdering other
:>Christians) and he would not have "marvelled" at PAGAN Rome killing
:>Christians or Jews, for he had seen pagan Rome kill many Christians and
:>Jews before and pagan Rome had him exiled on the isle of Patmos. What he
:>was looking at was the future PAPAL Rome, the false church, murdering
:>millions and millions of Christians (in the age of grace) and Jews (as it
:>will in the future Great Tribulation or time of Jacob's trouble prophecied
:>in Daniel).
:>
:>> The "Whore" of Revelation is NOT the RCC.
:>> The "Whore" is the unified satanic political/religious power, which may
:>> include the RCC, but is not limited to.
:>> † Kevin Matthew Gresh
:>
:>Kevin, the Bible says that anyone who joins themselves to a harlot becomes
:>one flesh with her. It would bode well for any "denomination" who is
:>presently ecumenically getting into bed with the church sitting on the
:>city of Rome to remember this biblical fact.
:>
:>Saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9),
:>
:>Jill B.
So Jill,
Why is this "harlot church" the ONLY one which adheres to ALL of Christ's
moral teachings?
Dan
Dan Bray
l B.) writes:
:>
:>In article <4ctuht$3...@huron.eel.ufl.edu>, afn0...@afn.org (Peter M.
:>Dyga) wrote:
:>
:>> I've got news for you anti-CAtholics. Even the first pope sinned, and it
:>> was much worse than sexual immorality, it was denying Christ, not once
:>> but three times! Thank God He is more forgiving then you; after all, He
:>> did make that sinner the head of His Church.
:>> Peter Michael Dyga
:>> (afn0...@afn.org)
:>
:>He said "And upon this rock (Himself, Christ) I will build MY (not
:>10:4), and He will build His church, which means a called out, local
:>assembly of believers, not a group of unregenerated people looking to a
:>central authority in Rome sitting on seven mountains, filled with
:>abominations (Rev. 17).
:>
:>Saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9),
:>
:>Jill B.
So Jill, If your notionof the Churchis correct, why did Paul in Corinthians
instruct the Corithians to abide by his instruction on women's headcoverings
if for no other reason than that none of the churches did it their way? Seems
suspiciously like a call to unifromity of doctrine and practice. Seems quite
contradictory to your notion of cowboy churches each going its own way.
Dan
Peter M. Dyga
: > I've got news for you anti-CAtholics. Even the first pope sinned, and it
: > was much worse than sexual immorality, it was denying Christ, not once
: > but three times! Thank God He is more forgiving then you; after all, He
: > did make that sinner the head of His Church.
: I was a catholic and I attend church almost everyday said the rosary
: prayer and confess my sins to the priest.
No wonder you left, if that's what you think it means to be a Catholic.
We'll pray for your enlightenment.
Peter M. Dyga
: In article <30F59D...@cannet.cannet.com>, jrj...@cannet.cannet.com
: says...
: >
: >Really Jill, your hatred of the Catholic Church blinds you to even the
: We agree Peter denied Christ three times, and Christ forgave him.
Well, actually that was the point that you would agree. Hence, maybe
you could accept that the popes today don't have to be any more "perfect"
than St. Peter was.
: However,
: how do you conclude Peter was the first Bishop of Rome? In Paul's Epistle
: to the Romans, there is no mention of Peter even though he greets many others
: in his closing salutation. Please explain.
Are you denying that he was in Rome? Hmmm? Not only is there direct
Scriptural evidence that he was in Rome but this is an undisputed fact
among historians.
: How is "His Beatitude" Patriarch Ignatius IV of Antioch also a successor to
: St. Peter?
How is?
: David King
ELMORE DANIEL JAMES
>: how do you conclude Peter was the first Bishop of Rome? In Paul's Epistle
>: to the Romans, there is no mention of Peter even though he greets many others
>: in his closing salutation. Please explain.
>Are you denying that he was in Rome? Hmmm? Not only is there direct
>Scriptural evidence that he was in Rome but this is an undisputed fact
>among historians.
What is this direct scriptural evidence that you are speaking of?
Also, my understanding is that MANY historians doubt that Peter founded
or lead the Roman church.
Jim in Boulder
Peter M. Dyga
: >: However,
Too bad no credible ones [historians].
"The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son." 1
Peter 5:13-14
Guess what the code name for Rome was in those days? Right! Babylon.
Oh yes, and don't miss the reference to "son", because for all those
fundamentalists out there that say reference to Jesus' "brothers" means
blood brothers, then I suppose reference to St. Peter's "son" means blood
son?
J.D. Ferguson
There is no need for us as Protestants to deny that Peter was in Rome,
or that he was crucified there upside down, as tradition indicates, but
in my personal study of church history, the first time the word "pope"
was used was a few centuries later.
anybody care to give me un biased references, if i'm wrong?
J.D.
My views are not necessarily those of my employer
ELMORE DANIEL JAMES
>: >: >: to the Romans, there is no mention of Peter even though he greets many others
>: >: >: in his closing salutation. Please explain.
>: >: >Are you denying that he was in Rome? Hmmm? Not only is there direct
>: >: >Scriptural evidence that he was in Rome but this is an undisputed fact
>: >: >among historians.
>: >: What is this direct scriptural evidence that you are speaking of?
>: >: Also, my understanding is that MANY historians doubt that Peter founded
>: >: or lead the Roman church.
>: >: Jim in Boulder
>: >Too bad no credible ones [historians].
>: No, just the ones that work for the Encyclopedia Britannica. No
>: credibility there.
>Really? Why don't you quote what Britannica says then? I would love to
>compare my version at home. ;-)
OK, compare it to the 1990 Britannica, volume 9, in it's article
on St. Peter (towards the end in the section titles something like "the
tradition of Peter in Rome"). There it says "The claims that the Church
of Rome was founded by Peter or that he served as its first bishop are in
dispute and rest on evidence that is not earlier than the middle or late
second century." I'd say that that backs up my original claim that many
historians deny that he founded or lead the church in Rome. But perhaps
we are talking at cross purposes once again. The first poster above
disputed that he was Rome's first bishop. You then defended the claim
that he had been there (but said nothing about his having been its
bishop, first or otherwise). I then responded to your statement, but
still thinking in terms of the debate being over whether or not he was
Romes first bishop. I will allow a very real probability that he was in
Rome at some point in his life. It is with his being the founder of the
church there that I disagree with.
Digessing for a moment, even if he did found the church there, so
what? He probably founded lots of churches in lots of cities. What makes
Rome so special?
>: >"The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son." 1
>: >Peter 5:13-14
>: >Guess what the code name for Rome was in those days? Right! Babylon.
>: >Oh yes, and don't miss the reference to "son", because for all those
>: >fundamentalists out there that say reference to Jesus' "brothers" means
>: >blood brothers, then I suppose reference to St. Peter's "son" means blood
>: >son?
>: OK, Peter knew someone in Rome who was sending their greeting to
>: the receipients of his letter. How does that necessitate that he was in
>: Rome himself?
>Some people will delude themselves their whole life I suppose.
Sigh, I suppose that I deserved that. My reply was kind of a
dodge. Nevertheless, all it again shows was that Peter spent some time in
Rome. This doesn't mean that he either founded the Church there or served
as its bishop.
Finally, though you and I will agree that Peter wrote the books
that bear his name, I don't believe that this is the case amoung the
majority of scholars (in fact, 2nd Peter is the book that is the most
rejected out of the entire Protestant New Testament as having been
written by its alleged author). So I'd say that the claim that many
historians don't believe that Peter was ever in Rome is again defended.
You and I wouldn't accept their reasoning and conclussions, but that
doesn't mean that they don't exist as you seem to indicate.
Jim in Boulder
Peter M. Dyga
: >ELMORE DANIEL JAMES (elm...@rastro.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
: >: >: However,
: >: >: how do you conclude Peter was the first Bishop of Rome? In Paul's Epistle
: >: >: to the Romans, there is no mention of Peter even though he greets many others
: >: >: in his closing salutation. Please explain.
: >: >Are you denying that he was in Rome? Hmmm? Not only is there direct
: >: >Scriptural evidence that he was in Rome but this is an undisputed fact
: >: >among historians.
: >: What is this direct scriptural evidence that you are speaking of?
: >: Also, my understanding is that MANY historians doubt that Peter founded
: >: or lead the Roman church.
: >: Jim in Boulder
: >Too bad no credible ones [historians].
: No, just the ones that work for the Encyclopedia Britannica. No
: credibility there.
Really? Why don't you quote what Britannica says then? I would love to
compare my version at home. ;-)
: >"The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son." 1
: >Peter 5:13-14
: >Guess what the code name for Rome was in those days? Right! Babylon.
: >Oh yes, and don't miss the reference to "son", because for all those
: >fundamentalists out there that say reference to Jesus' "brothers" means
: >blood brothers, then I suppose reference to St. Peter's "son" means blood
: >son?
: OK, Peter knew someone in Rome who was sending their greeting to
: the receipients of his letter. How does that necessitate that he was in
: Rome himself?
Some people will delude themselves their whole life I suppose.
: Jim in Boulder
Peter M. Dyga
: >: >: >: However,
: >: >: >: how do you conclude Peter was the first Bishop of Rome? In Paul's Epistle
: >: >: >: to the Romans, there is no mention of Peter even though he greets many others
: >: >: >: in his closing salutation. Please explain.
: >: >: >Are you denying that he was in Rome? Hmmm? Not only is there direct
: >: >: >Scriptural evidence that he was in Rome but this is an undisputed fact
: >: >: >among historians.
: >: >: What is this direct scriptural evidence that you are speaking of?
: >: >: Also, my understanding is that MANY historians doubt that Peter founded
: >: >: or lead the Roman church.
: >: >: Jim in Boulder
: >: >Too bad no credible ones [historians].
: >: No, just the ones that work for the Encyclopedia Britannica. No
: >: credibility there.
: >Really? Why don't you quote what Britannica says then? I would love to
: >compare my version at home. ;-)
: OK, compare it to the 1990 Britannica, volume 9, in it's article
: on St. Peter (towards the end in the section titles something like "the
: tradition of Peter in Rome"). There it says "The claims that the Church
: of Rome was founded by Peter or that he served as its first bishop are in
: dispute
Stating that something is in "dispute" does not a definative statement on
the validty of claims to contrary make. The mere existence of your and
other non-Catholic churches "claim" that St. Peter did not find the
Church of Rome necessitates the Encyclopedia stating such. The point in
question, however (or so I thought) was what evidence (credible) to the
contrary was given. So far, you have provided non.
: and rest on evidence that is not earlier than the middle or late
: second century."
Now we are getting warmer. But let me ask you, is evidence from the mid
to late 100s insufficient for you? Keep in mind before you answer, that
those people living in that period would have been people who walked and
talked with the apostles.
: I'd say that that backs up my original claim that many
: historians deny that he founded or lead the church in Rome.
: Rome at some point in his life. It is with his being the founder of the
: church there that I disagree with.
: Digessing for a moment, even if he did found the church there, so
: what? He probably founded lots of churches in lots of cities. What makes
: Rome so special?
Please read...
"Peter alone [among the Apostles] do I find married, and through mention
of his mother-in-law. I presume he was a monogamist; for the Church,
BUILT UPON HIM..." Tertullian - Treatise on Mongamy, 213 AD
"But," you say, "the Church has the power of forgiving sins." This I
acknowledge. And I account it even more than you do, since I have the
Paraclete Himself, who says through the new prophets: "The Church is able
to forgive sins; but I will not do it, lest they might commit others too."
What if a pseudo-prophetic spirit has made that declaration? But the part
of a subverter were more to recommend himself by clemency, and to lead
other s into sin; or, if he has been eager to simulate the spirit of
Truth, then indeed the Spirit of Truth is able to indulgently pardon
fornicators, but wills not to do it, in order to prevent more wide-spread
evil.
"I now inquire into your opinion, to see whence you usurp this right for
the Church. Do you presume, BECAUES THE LORD SAID TO PETER, 'On this rock
I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of
heaven,' or 'whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be
bound or loosed in heaven,' that the power of binding and loosing has
thereby been handed on to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter?"
Tertullian - The treatise on Modesty, 220 AD
"On hearing these words, the blessed Peter, the chosen, the pre-eminent,
the first among the disciples, for whom alone with Himself the Savior pad
the tribute, quickly grasped and understood their meaning." St. Clement of
Alexandria - "Who Is the Rich Man that is Saved?", 190 AD
"Peter, upon whom is built the Church of Christ, against which the gates
of hell shall not prevail..." Origen - Commentaries on John, 226 AD
"Look at the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks,
upon whom Christ built the Church!" Origen - Homilies on Exodus, 244AD
"The Lord says to Peter: 'I say to you,' He says, 'that you are Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not
overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and
whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.'
"And again He says to him after His resurrection: 'Feed my sheep.' On him
He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep;
and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded A
SINGLE CHAIR, and He established by His own authority A SOURCE AND AN
INTRINSIC REASON FOR THAT UNITY. Indeed, the others were that also which
Peter was; but A PRIMACY IS GIVEN TO PETER, whereby it is made clear that
there is but one Church and ONE CHAIR. So too, all are shephards, and the
flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord.
If someone does not hold fast to this UNITY OF PETER, can he imagine that
he still holds faith? If he desert the CHAIR OF PETER UPON W HOM THE
CHURCH WAS BUILT, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" St.
Cyprian of Carthage - The treatise on The Unity of the Catholic Church,
251 AD
"Simon, My follower, I have made YOU THE FOUNDATION OF THE HOLY CHURCH. I
betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its building. You
are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for Me. If
they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn
them. You are the head of the fountain from which My teaching flows, you
are the chief of My disciples. Through you I will give drink to all
peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have
chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born of My institution, and so
that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you
the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given YOU AUTHORITY OVER ALL MY
TREASURES!" St. Ephraim - Homilies, 306 AD
: >: >"The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son." 1
: >: >Peter 5:13-14
: >: >Guess what the code name for Rome was in those days? Right! Babylon.
: >: >Oh yes, and don't miss the reference to "son", because for all those
: >: >fundamentalists out there that say reference to Jesus' "brothers" means
: >: >blood brothers, then I suppose reference to St. Peter's "son" means blood
: >: >son?
: >: OK, Peter knew someone in Rome who was sending their greeting to
: >: the receipients of his letter. How does that necessitate that he was in
: >: Rome himself?
: >Some people will delude themselves their whole life I suppose.
: Sigh, I suppose that I deserved that. My reply was kind of a
: dodge. Nevertheless, all it again shows was that Peter spent some time in
: Rome. This doesn't mean that he either founded the Church there or served
: as its bishop.
Niether is important to the subject. The Chair of St. Peter comes from
the keys given him by Christ, regardless of where he settled (you may
deny a basic truth which is all but acknowledge by everyone but the most
extreme anti-Catholic if you like). Your earlier comment..."so what
about Rome" proves the Catholic point. It is NOT Rome that is important,
but St. Peter, and it is BECAUSE St. Peter established and was crucified
in Rome that the Church and/or Chair of St. Peter, and the authority
granted his successor through the keys of St. Peter, resides in that
city. Otherwise, we would have no reason for that city having been the
seat of the Church.
: Finally, though you and I will agree that Peter wrote the books
: that bear his name, I don't believe that this is the case amoung the
: majority of scholars (in fact, 2nd Peter is the book that is the most
: rejected out of the entire Protestant New Testament as having been
: written by its alleged author). So I'd say that the claim that many
: historians don't believe that Peter was ever in Rome is again defended.
Manuy does not a majority make.
: You and I wouldn't accept their reasoning and conclussions, but that
: doesn't mean that they don't exist as you seem to indicate.
Oh, I know they exist. Heretics too have existed since day one. But the
existence of those who deny or reject the truth does not change the truth.
Chris Tatman
>ELMORE DANIEL JAMES (elm...@rastro.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
>: >: However,
>: >: how do you conclude Peter was the first Bishop of Rome? In Paul's Epistle
>: >: to the Romans, there is no mention of Peter even though he greets many others
>: >: in his closing salutation. Please explain.
>: >Are you denying that he was in Rome? Hmmm? Not only is there direct
>: >Scriptural evidence that he was in Rome but this is an undisputed fact
>: >among historians.
>: What is this direct scriptural evidence that you are speaking of?
>: Also, my understanding is that MANY historians doubt that Peter founded
>: or lead the Roman church.
>: Jim in Boulder
>Too bad no credible ones [historians].
>"The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son." 1
>Peter 5:13-14
>Guess what the code name for Rome was in those days? Right! Babylon.
>Oh yes, and don't miss the reference to "son", because for all those
>fundamentalists out there that say reference to Jesus' "brothers" means
>blood brothers, then I suppose reference to St. Peter's "son" means blood
>son?
>--
> Peter Michael Dyga
> (afn0...@afn.org)
Why couldn't he have a son?
================================
From Bakersfield California! /\/
--------------------------------
Chad Lemaster
I belive the RCC says that the Pope must be celibate. IF Peter had a son
then he couldn't have been the first Pope. (just a view from a
non-catholic)
>================================
>From Bakersfield California! /\/
>--------------------------------
--
Chad *************************************************************************
*****"Life is not worth living without a purpose. Jesus is the purpose that *
* mak es life worth the living." -Van Gale *
******************************************************************************
Lloyd Rabanus
Lemaster) wrote:
>I belive the RCC says that the Pope must be celibate. IF Peter had a son
>then he couldn't have been the first Pope. (just a view from a
>non-catholic)
You believe wrong. Peter was married. Jesus healed his mother
in-law's fever so she could serve Him. Mark 1:29-30. He was never a
pope either. He was a disciple and an Apostle.
--
Lloyd Rabanus (Former trinitarian scum preacher)
Now serving the One True God.. Jesus is His Name
Obey Acts 2:38<->Live by 2 Tim. 2:15
Chad Lemaster
>On Sun, 28 Jan 96 20:35:37 GMT, cl0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Chad
>Lemaster) wrote:
>>I belive the RCC says that the Pope must be celibate. IF Peter had a son
>>then he couldn't have been the first Pope. (just a view from a
>>non-catholic)
>You believe wrong. Peter was married. Jesus healed his mother
>in-law's fever so she could serve Him. Mark 1:29-30. He was never a
>pope either. He was a disciple and an Apostle.
That is what I was trying to say. Since the RCC says that the pope must be
celibate, they contridict themselves when they say Peter was the first
<Pope.
>--
>Lloyd Rabanus (Former trinitarian scum preacher)
>Now serving the One True God.. Jesus is His Name
>Obey Acts 2:38<->Live by 2 Tim. 2:15
--
Fr. John W. Morris +
>
> I belive the RCC says that the Pope must be celibate. IF Peter had a son
> then he couldn't have been the first Pope. (just a view from a
> non-catholic)
Fr. John W. Morris respons:
We know that St. Peter was married because Christ healed his mother in law.
St. Matthew 8:14-15.
The early Church had married bishops. It was not until later that the Church
required bishops to be celibate.
Fr. John +
Lane Core Jr.
>Jim,
>J.D.
Is your question addressed to Catholics? No matter, I'll answer it.
You are absolutely right: any well-educated Catholic knows that.
But, so what? The *word* "pope" is not at issue: the *office* of pope
is what matters.
I mean, for example, does Scripture use the *word* "Trinity"? No. Does
that mean that the Trinity of the Godhead was invented later, or that
God became a Trinity only after people realized the doctrine?
Of course, some (like poor SW) would argue, "Yes, that means the
Trinity of the Godhead *was* invented later...."
Would you argue that, J.D.?
*************************************
Mr. Lane Core Jr. elc...@nauticom.net
"Heart Speaks to Heart"
*************************************
honest man
"J.D. Ferguson" <t_jfe...@qualcomm.com> wrote:
>Jim,
>
>There is no need for us as Protestants to deny that Peter was in Rome,
>or that he was crucified there upside down, as tradition indicates, but
>in my personal study of church history, the first time the word "pope"
>was used was a few centuries later.
>
>anybody care to give me un biased references, if i'm wrong?
>
>J.D.
>
>My views are not necessarily those of my employer
>
>
and emidiate conversion of gentile believers to Judaism. the Apostles
compromised on full, but gradual conversion to Judaism. The Papal records
were fictionalized in the Third Century AD. There was no Pope until The Roman
emperor Stephen Proclaimed himself Pope in 254AD. The Roman Emporer Hadrian
had assumed the role as Bishop of Rome in the Second Century AD and linked the
title to the Roman throne.
J.D. Ferguson
I'm not sure of your historical references, I'm not doubting you, you've givin me something to look into, I always thought it was a =
later date than that.
What I would debate with you is that the apostles compromised on a full but gradual conversion to Judaism. The Apostles MAY have wen=
t in that direction if God had not raised up Paul. Read Galations.
J.D,
Moshe Shulman
>Peter was Rabbi. If you read Acts Chapter 15 you will see that he
wanted full
>and emidiate conversion of gentile believers to Judaism. the Apostles
>compromised on full, but gradual conversion to Judaism. The Papal
records
>were fictionalized in the Third Century AD. There was no Pope until
The Roman
>emperor Stephen Proclaimed himself Pope in 254AD. The Roman Emporer
Hadrian
>had assumed the role as Bishop of Rome in the Second Century AD and
linked the
>title to the Roman throne.
This is totally wrong. 1. There was no Roman emperor in 254AD who was
called Stephen. 2. ALL Roman emporers from the time of Octavian were
called 'potifix maximus' (high priest), and that had nothing to do
with the Pope. 3. Hadrian was a pagan and never a Christian.
When trying to criticise get you facts straight.
--
/\ /\
____/_ \____ ____/_ \____
\ ___\ \ / Moshe Shulman \ ___\ \ /
\/ / \/ / \/ / \/ /
/ /\__/_/\ mshu...@ix.netcom.com / /\__/_/\
/__\ \_____\ /__\ \_____\
\ / \ /
\/ \/
Fr. John or Cheryl Morris
> There was no Pope until The Roman
> emperor Stephen Proclaimed himself Pope in 254AD. The Roman Emporer Hadrian had assumed the role as Bishop of Rome in the Second Century AD and
linked the title to the Roman throne.
Fr. John W. Morris responds:
I am not a Roman Catholic and do not accept the universal jurisdiction or
infallibility of the Pope. I am Eastern Orthodox. However, I strongly
disagree with you. I suggest that you study some Church history. If you did
you would discover that St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. There have
been Bishops of Rome ever since St. Peter. That is historical fact. The title
Pope merely means Pappa. In some Orthodox Countries such as Bulgaria a preist
is called a Pope. I would be called a Protopope in Bulgaria, because I am an
Archpriest. The Patriarch of Alexandria is also called Pope in both the
Coptic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church.
Fr. John +
NF
>That is what I was trying to say. Since the RCC says that the pope must be
>celibate, they contridict themselves when they say Peter was the first
><Pope.
The RCC gets the idea from Paul... It was paul's idea (he
distinguished it as his own) that people were more dedicated if
single, and therefore, celebate. I never understood turning a
suggestion to a draconian dogma, though....
J.D. Ferguson
>honest man wrote:
>> There was no Pope until The Roman
d Century AD and
>linked the title to the Roman throne.
>
>Fr. John W. Morris responds:
>
>I am not a Roman Catholic and do not accept the universal jurisdiction or
>infallibility of the Pope. I am Eastern Orthodox. However, I strongly
>disagree with you. I suggest that you study some Church history. If you did
>you would discover that St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. There have
>been Bishops of Rome ever since St. Peter. That is historical fact. The title
>Pope merely means Pappa. In some Orthodox Countries such as Bulgaria a preist
>is called a Pope. I would be called a Protopope in Bulgaria, because I am an
>Archpriest. The Patriarch of Alexandria is also called Pope in both the
>Coptic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church.
>
>Fr. John +
>
>
In my original post, I was not necessarily refering to the WORD "pope", (or papa), but to the well defined concept, as it exists in =
modern times, of infallability, and authority etc., How the RCC defines the pope as so much more than the bishop of Rome, and would =
set him above all other authorities.
J.D.
Fr. John or Cheryl Morris
> : >: Also, my understanding is that MANY historians doubt that Peter founded
> : >: or lead the Roman church.
> : >: Jim in Boulder
>
Fr. John W. Morris responds:
No one believes that St. Peter founded the Church in Rome. It is clear from
the scriptures that he did not found the Church in Rome. However, I know of
no credible historian who disputes the fact that St. Peter became the leader
of the Church in Rome. (I teach early Church history at a local college.) The
fact that I am not a Roman Catholic and do not accept the Roman Catholic
doctrine of the papacy should lend some weight to what I have written on this
subject. I am a married Eastern Orthodox priest.
Fr. John +
Vince Laplante
: Mr. Lane Core Jr. wrote:
: > But the Head of the Church surely *is* above reproach, for the Head of
: > the Church is Jesus Christ the Lord. The pope is merely His vicar, the
: > visible head of the Church on earth.
: Imagine - a mere mortal taking the place of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
: Not only is such a statement absurd, but it is also blasphemous!
: Saint John in Revelation 13 talks about two beasts. Just as the woman of
: Revelation 12 identifies the true people of God under both the Old and New
: Covenants, and the woman of Revelation 17 the major apostate church, I
: believe the beasts of Revelation 13 represents the papacy down through the
: centuries.
: Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the
: beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred
: threescore and six (Revelation 13:18 - KJV).
: This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the
: number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666 (Revelation
: 13:18 - NIV).
: Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the
: beast; for it is the number of a man: and his number is Six hundred and
: sixty and six (Revelation 13:18 - ASV).
: Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
: Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have: V=5,
: I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500, E=0 and
: I=1.
: 5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
Against my better judgement, I will respond to this insanity. There are two
problems with your "analysis":
1. Numerology is not an exact science. In fact, it is a crock. One can use
as many combinations as possible to sum up, multiply and subtract numbers
until one gets the result desired.
2. In this particular case, everything seems like a straight forward addition.
The problem is that the Holy Father's titles don't include Son of God's Vicar
or in Latin VICARIVS FILII DEI. What you seem to be confusing it with is
Vicar of Christ or VICARIVS CHRISTI, which does not add up to 666.
Just for the record, the Holy Father's titles are: Bishop of Rome, Metropolitan
of the Roman Province, Primate of Italy, Patriarch of the West, Supreme
Pontiff of the Universal Church, Vicar of Christ, Pastor of Pastors and
Servant of the Servants of God. He is also the Sovereign of the State of
Vatican City but this is a political, not religious title. The title Pope is
actually not a theological title like the others, but simply another word for
father (Latin Papa). It was once applied to other bishops in the west and to
any priest in the east but over time came to be applied only to the Bishop
of Rome and was eventually decreed to be only applicable to him. The Patriarch
of the Copts, Shanouda III, is also refered to His Holiness and Pope.
Finally, the title Vicar of Peter has been applied to
the Popes in the past but Innocent III formally rejected it because the
Pope is not a representative of St. Peter rather the successor to the Prince
of the Apostles and is therefore Vicar of Christ.
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings.
Vince Laplante
I speak for no man but myself.
--
Vince Laplante (vlap...@emr1.emr.ca)
"Philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways, the point,
however, is to change it."
Someguy
>>Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
>>Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have:
V=5,
>>I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500,
E=0 and
>>I=1.
>
>>5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
>
>>encyclopedia says:
>
>>U/u is the twenty-first letter of the English alphabet. The letter is
>>actually a variant of the next letter in the alphabet, V/v. The Latin
>>alphabet used V/v for both consonantal w and vocalic u, but in late
Latin
>
>You are NVTS!!!
>
>Everyone knows the Beast is UNIX!
>
Oh please! Not another Chick Publications! I've heard the same said for
let's see, Adolf Hitler, Gorbechev, Henry Kissinger, George Bush, and
Saddam Hussein. What a crock!
People people people, have you nothing better to do?
Jason.
Rynne McCoy
: This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the
: number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666 (Revelation
: 13:18 - NIV).
: Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the
: beast; for it is the number of a man: and his number is Six hundred and
: sixty and six (Revelation 13:18 - ASV).
: I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500, E=0 and
: I=1.
:
: 5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
I believe what you are attempting to do is utilize the Qabalistic process
known as Gematria.
First of all, there has yet to be found an order of Gematria established
for the English alphabet, because having the Arabic numeral system has
changed the relevancy of Gematria for our times.
Second, Gematria is not merely "numerology" (to answer a previous follow
up post). Gematria was a recognized hidden process by even the Ancient
Hebrews. The fact is that in ancient times, cultures like the Hebrews &
the Greeks did not *have* the Arabic numeral system. The letters of
their *alphabet* were utilised to designate numbers.
By the time of the Latin-based languages of the Middle Ages, however,
this practice had been dropped, since the Arabic numeral system had been
adopted.
Therefore, if one is to do Gematria, one must return to the language base
in which Gematria was a valid & operating formula, such as Greek or Latin.
Now, in Greek, <<To Mega Therion>>, meaning, "The Great Beast", adds up
to 666. A very obvious reason why The Great Beast was designated by John
as having the number 666.
However, a more PRESSING question is THIS: how did it come to be that
John the Revelator utilised an OCCULT method of deriving this numeral,
and call that method WISDOM??? Or how has it come to be that xtianity
has fallen into slander and maligning against Occult traditions and
processes, when one of their own not only used them in *THE* Book,
Revelations, but encouraged others to use them as well by saying, "HERE
IS WISDOM"???
That, as I see it, is a far more significant & probing issue & question
than that of whether or not the office of Pope is valid. Every xtian
church that I see is plagued with dogmatists & absolutists; the pope is
just one among many. What I want to know is, how are christians going to
reconcile St. John's obvious endorsement of the Occult with their own
superstitious flaming against it??? ("occult" is simply Greek for
"hidden", by the way, for any of you who presume to know 'what the bible
says' and never bothered to at least learn Greek, let alone Hebrew). Any
thoughts?
--
BABALON 156 *** SHEDONA 435 | she...@intrepid.net
"I Am the Heart of All Things; but most of all,
I am Your Heart." -- My HGA
--
BABALON 156 *** SHEDONA 435 | she...@intrepid.net
"I Am the Heart of All Things; but most of all,
I am Your Heart." -- My HGA
Marc Bonnaud
>Mr. Lane Core Jr. wrote:
>
>> But the Head of the Church surely *is* above reproach, for the Head of
>> the Church is Jesus Christ the Lord. The pope is merely His vicar, the
>> visible head of the Church on earth.
>
>
>Imagine - a mere mortal taking the place of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
>Not only is such a statement absurd, but it is also blasphemous!
>
>Saint John in Revelation 13 talks about two beasts. Just as the woman of
>Revelation 12 identifies the true people of God under both the Old and New
>Covenants, and the woman of Revelation 17 the major apostate church, I
>believe the beasts of Revelation 13 represents the papacy down through the
>centuries.
>
>
>This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the
>number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666 (Revelation
>13:18 - NIV).
>
>Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the
>beast; for it is the number of a man: and his number is Six hundred and
>sixty and six (Revelation 13:18 - ASV).
>
>Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
>Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have: V=5,
>I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500, E=0 and
>I=1.
>
>5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
>
>encyclopedia says:
>
>U/u is the twenty-first letter of the English alphabet. The letter is
>actually a variant of the next letter in the alphabet, V/v. The Latin
>sound of w became v. Although the rounded form of V/v--U/u--was used in
>late-Latin inscriptions, the sounds u, v, and w were generally
>indistinguishable in writing. The two forms of the letter continued in use,
>but the differentiation of vocalic u from consonantal v by use of the letters
>U/u and V/v was not fully established in English writing until the 17th
>century.
>
>David King
>
Another poor illiterate American copying old fake tales !!
Well young illiterate man, the author of Apocalypsis, John, wrote in Paphos
and he had a greek and hebrew , not latin background.
It might be interesting to note that in the hebrew system for giving an
numerical equivalent to letters ( Ain Bekar ) the letter ' Vau ' which stands
for 'V ' ' U ' 'OU' or ' W ' has the value of 6
Therefore : w w w = 6 6 6 ....
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Marc Bonnaud
page TAM-TAM : http://PersoWeb.francenet.fr/~mbonnaud
courrier : mbon...@francenet.fr
TAM : Toile d'Araignée Mondiale
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dave Rahardja
wrote:
>In article <4es1mo$f...@thor.atcon.com>, drk...@atcon.com (David King) wrote:
>>Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
>>Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have: V=5,
>>I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500, E=0 and
>>I=1.
>>5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
>>For those who insist the Latin translation of "Vicar" is VICARIUS, my
>>encyclopedia says:
>>U/u is the twenty-first letter of the English alphabet. The letter is
>>actually a variant of the next letter in the alphabet, V/v. The Latin
>>alphabet used V/v for both consonantal w and vocalic u, but in late Latin
>You are NVTS!!!
>Everyone knows the Beast is UNIX!
I agree. This sort of mindless "Christian" numerology is absolutely
ridiculous. Unix, on the other hand, is ridiculous to begin with. (grin)
/+_,--___ _|
++( P \_\ \ ---------------------------------
|++ U ) ) \_\ Dave Rahardja at ORU, Tulsa, OK
-++ ( P /__/\:: ---------------------------------
/++++__--~ |/
Marc Bonnaud
>superstitious flaming against it??? ("occult" is simply Greek for
>"hidden", by the way, for any of you who presume to know 'what the bible
>says' and never bothered to at least learn Greek, let alone Hebrew). Any
>thoughts?
occult comes from latin occultus.
In greek, hidden is ' kryptos ' ...
Andrew Spring
<mbon...@francenet.fr> wrote:
>Another poor illiterate American copying old fake tales !!
>Well young illiterate man, the author of Apocalypsis, John, wrote in Paphos
>and he had a greek and hebrew , not latin background.
In the interests of spreading literacy around the Internet, John wrote in
Patmos.
Also, the names of languages (like Latin, Greek, and Hebrew) are
considered proper nouns in English, and should therefore be capitalized.
>It might be interesting to note that in the hebrew system for giving an
>numerical equivalent to letters ( Ain Bekar ) the letter ' Vau ' which stands
>for 'V ' ' U ' 'OU' or ' W ' has the value of 6
>
>Therefore : w w w = 6 6 6 ....
In the Gematria system that was used in that era, that would make WWW add
up to 18. What was your point?
--
"Intelligent terminals and high speed terminals are very pleasant to use with _vi_" - From the _man_ pages for _ex_.
Lucid346
having no numerical value. Numerology has its roots as being the
SUBCONCIOUS numerical value as related to the order of the alphabet. a=1
b=2 ect,
Latin letters with no numerical values used in an English speaking area
just doesnt add up!
Lane Core Jr.
>In <4ehmoq$2...@spectator.cris.com> tbr...@cris.com (Lloyd Rabanus) writes:
>>On Sun, 28 Jan 96 20:35:37 GMT, cl0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Chad
>>Lemaster) wrote:
>>>I belive the RCC says that the Pope must be celibate. IF Peter had a son
>>>then he couldn't have been the first Pope. (just a view from a
>>>non-catholic)
>>You believe wrong. Peter was married. Jesus healed his mother
>>in-law's fever so she could serve Him. Mark 1:29-30. He was never a
>>pope either. He was a disciple and an Apostle.
>That is what I was trying to say. Since the RCC says that the pope must be
>celibate, they contridict themselves when they say Peter was the first
>Pope.
We do not contradict ourselves.
It is not intrinsic to the papacy (nor to the episcopacy or the
presbyterate, for that matter) that the pope must be celibate.
It is a Church rule (not Divine law) that the popes now must be
celibate. That was not the rule at first.
Therefore, no contradiction whatever.
The rule (which we refer to as a discipline) was changed many
centuries ago: disciplines can be changed. Teaching WRT to faith and
morals (which we refer to as doctrine) cannot be changed so as to
contradict already established doctrine.
I will conclude with some musings:
Why must Catholics put up with this kind of crap? This distortion of
Catholic teaching that makes us suspect that Protestants must think we
are the stupidest of human beings, to miss such an obvious
"contradiction"?
What Catholics posting to Usenet distort Protestant beliefs and
practices the way Protestants (not all, of course) distort Catholic
beliefs and practices?
Why must Catholics put up with this kind of crap?
Lane Core Jr.
>>From: an...@truth.net (honest man)
>>Peter was Rabbi. If you read Acts Chapter 15 you will see that he wanted full
>>and emidiate conversion of gentile believers to Judaism. the Apostles
>>compromised on full, but gradual conversion to Judaism. The Papal records
>>were fictionalized in the Third Century AD. There was no Pope until The Roman
>>emperor Stephen Proclaimed himself Pope in 254AD. The Roman Emporer Hadrian
>>had assumed the role as Bishop of Rome in the Second Century AD and linked the
>>title to the Roman throne.
>This is totally wrong. 1. There was no Roman emperor in 254AD who was
>called Stephen. 2. ALL Roman emporers from the time of Octavian were
>called 'potifix maximus' (high priest), and that had nothing to do
>with the Pope. 3. Hadrian was a pagan and never a Christian.
>When trying to criticise get you facts straight.
Thanks, Moshe.
I have noticed, however, that for some Protestant fundamentalists, ANY
STATEMENT WHATEVER IS JUSTIFIED, so long as it's anti-Catholic.
jacco zwetsloot
>
Distribution:
David King (drk...@atcon.com) wrote:
: Mr. Lane Core Jr. wrote:
: > But the Head of the Church surely *is* above reproach, for the Head of
: > the Church is Jesus Christ the Lord. The pope is merely His vicar, the
: > visible head of the Church on earth.
: Imagine - a mere mortal taking the place of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
: Not only is such a statement absurd, but it is also blasphemous!
Is it? Are all Christians not in the place of Christ by ministering to
the needs of others around us? If the way that others see Christ and come
to know Him is through us, then are not standing "in the place" of
Christ, representing him on this earth? Surely no true Christian would
even argue with that. This is what vicar means.
: Saint John in Revelation 13 talks about two beasts. Just as the woman of
: Revelation 12 identifies the true people of God under both the Old and New
: Covenants, and the woman of Revelation 17 the major apostate church, I
: believe the beasts of Revelation 13 represents the papacy down through the
: centuries.
Really? Since when? If there is one Beast, how can it be a series of
Popes? When do you believe the papal system started? If you are going to
respond "with Constantine" or some time after, then you are sorely
mistaken, and have ignored Church History. Is it not possible that, since
Revelation 1:1 says that the prophecy is about what "must shortly come to
pass", that maybe it has some relevance to first century Christians?
Is it not also possible that, since John wrote Revelation _before_ not
_after_ 70AD (and there are a number of external as well as internal
evidences to suggest this) that the prophecies could have had their
fulfilment in the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jews
after 70AD? Remember Christ's words in Matthew 24. They also refer to
this period.
If Revelation can be taken to be talking about this time (ie 70AD, the
end of the Jewish rule in Jerusalem and the Jewish religion as far as
temple worship and sacrifices was concerned), and I believe it is, then
the Beast of Revelation and/or the Whore of Babylon can be taken to be
apostate Judaism, those Jews who rejected their Messiah. There is no
record of any Christians dying in the troubles of 70AD, when Titus and
his armies marched into and conquered Jerusalem. Why? Perhaps because
they heeded Christ's words (and those of Revelation) and fled to the
mountains.
In this case we can forget about future fulfilments and reading ourselves
into Scripture and eschatology (as so many sincere people do).
: Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the
: beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred
: threescore and six (Revelation 13:18 - KJV).
: Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
A good thing that these are not the Pope's official titles. THe Bishop of
Rome has a number of official titles, including Vicar of Jesus Christ.
But VICARIVS FILII DEI is not one of them. Unless you want to rename him
with a title of your own (as you have done above) and risk being
answerable to God for such false witness and deceit, then I would very
much advise you to stop it. I have checked out the above allegation a
number of times, and the fact remains: the VICRIVS FILII DEI story has
hairs on it. In other words it is very much apocryphal.
: Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have: V=5,
: I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500,
E=0 and
: I=1.
Bearing in mind that the Latin alphabet is neither the original writing
system of the Old or New Testaments, and also that the Latin alphabet
does not provide a value for each and every letter, like Greek and Hebrew
do, the above also has hairs on it. It is hogwash. Look, watch me while I
prove that a lady named Ellen Gould White is the Antichrist.
E = 0
L = 50
L = 50
E = 0
N = 0
G = 0
O = 0
U = V = 5
L = 50
D = 50
W = V + V = 5 + 5 = 10
H = 0
I = 1
T = 0
E = 0
: 5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
No, I am convinced. Ellen G White is the Antichrist (at least, she has as
muich chance of being the Antichrist as the Pope does, by this spurious
sytem of numerology).
David, I pray that God will open your eyes to the truth and show you that
all the above is such a complete waste of time and so divisive and
hateful. Now don't get me wrong., I am not a Roman Catholix, nor am I
likely to become one. But if you're going to attack Catholicism, at least
don't use false evidence, as you have done above.
God bless
Jacco Z.
Lane Core Jr.
drk...@atcon.com (David King) wrote:
> [....]
>Saint John in Revelation 13 talks about two beasts. Just as the woman of
>Revelation 12 identifies the true people of God under both the Old and New
>Covenants, and the woman of Revelation 17 the major apostate church, I
>believe the beasts of Revelation 13 represents the papacy down through the
>centuries.
>Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the
>beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred
>threescore and six (Revelation 13:18 - KJV).
>This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the
>number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666 (Revelation
>13:18 - NIV).
>Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the
>beast; for it is the number of a man: and his number is Six hundred and
>sixty and six (Revelation 13:18 - ASV).
>Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
>Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have: V=5,
>I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500, E=0 and
>I=1.
>5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
> [....]
>David King
I have four points to make.
First, "Vicar of the Son of God", _Vicarius Filii Dei_, does not
happen to be a title of the pope: the title they employ--and the
office they hold--is "Vicar of Christ", _Vicarius Christi_.
The title _Vicarius Filii Dei_ is something a Protestant somewhere,
sometime, simply made up, to fit this particular 666 bill.
Second, Revelations was written in *Greek*; you want us to be using
*Roman* numerals to add up the value of letters in *Latin* words. What
justification do you have for doing this?
Why not pick Hebrew (the language of the Scriptures St. John grew up
with) or Aramaic (the vernacular he probably grew up with, if not with
Greek) when you're looking for letters to add up? Why not, in fact,
stick with Greek, the original language of Revelations? Any real
reason other than your theory breaks down if you don't pick Latin?
Third, why do you think the numerical values to be attached to the
letters are the value of Latin letters used as Roman numerals? Why
shouldn't they be the values of the letters in their ordinal position
in the alphabet?--alpha=1, beta=2.... Why not, even, some other scheme
of values?
Moreover, the Roman numeral system has no number for zero: in and of
itself, this fact should clue you in that you are "numbering" the
letters wrong. Letting "A" = zero, etc., is your arbitrary
assumption--and very convenient for you. As far as I can tell, the
only reason you have for picking the scheme you did is that it gives
you the result you desire--as long as you fudge the other factors I
mention here.
Fourth, the scripture says it is the number of a *man*, not of an
office or a title or a role. Since it is the number of a man, you
should be adding up the numerical values of the letters of a man's
name, shouldn't you? Or is the scripture wrong, and should it say
"office" or "title" or "role" instead of "man"?
So, you have employed a made-up title, picked a language at random
(apparently), used an arbitrary value-scheme, and a title instead of a
name (as the scripture indicates you should). Leave all that out, and
what is left of your theory? Nothing.
In fact, if even one of those pieces is wrong, your puzzle falls
apart.
Good heavens, David, don't you know that anybody can play these
numbers games? Add 'em up the "right" way, and the letters in Martin
Luther's name in Latin add up to 666.
Bob Walden points out repeatedly that the Johannine verse that
Protestants use to deny the Lord's own indisputable teaching on the
Holy Eucharist is John 6:66. (And I think he might be on to something
there.)
There were even people who seriously suggested that U. S. President
Reagan was the Anti-Christ: "Ronald Wilson Reagan": six letters and
six letters and six letters = 6 and 6 and 6 = 666.
Geeeeesssshhhhh...........
BTW, I believe that many scholars think 666 refers to the Roman
emperor Nero: 666 is, I am told, the value of the Hebrew version (nrwn
qsr) of the *Greek* for Nero Caesar. Some ancient Latin manuscripts
render the number, accordingly, as 616, which is the value of the
Hebrew version (nrw qsr) of the *Latin* for Nero Caesar. But these
things are outside my domain, and I will gladly stand corrected.
Andrew Spring
zwetsloot) wrote:
>Bearing in mind that the Latin alphabet is neither the original writing
>system of the Old or New Testaments, and also that the Latin alphabet
>does not provide a value for each and every letter, like Greek and Hebrew
>do, the above also has hairs on it. It is hogwash. Look, watch me while I
>prove that a lady named Ellen Gould White is the Antichrist.
Careful... you might get people to start stoning Seventh Day Adventists.
Andrew Spring
Jr.) wrote:
>So, you have employed a made-up title, picked a language at random
>(apparently), used an arbitrary value-scheme, and a title instead of a
>name (as the scripture indicates you should). Leave all that out, and
>what is left of your theory? Nothing.
You sir, are hereby accused of being sensible and logical. A capital
crime on USENET.
>Good heavens, David, don't you know that anybody can play these
>numbers games? Add 'em up the "right" way, and the letters in Martin
>Luther's name in Latin add up to 666.
Don't forget the Following:
HITLER (A=100, B=101, etc.)
Will Laud (Archbishop of Canterbury ca. 1640)
W = VV = 10 I = 1, L = 50 U = V = 5 D = 500
(A court jester's joke at the Diminuative Bishop's expense: "Give all
praise to God, nuncle, and little laud to the devil).
ROYAL SUPREMACY IN GREAT BRITAIN is also supposed to add up to 666 in
Greek AND in Hebrew.
Mikhail S. Gorbachev in Russian supposedly adds up to 1332 = 666 + 666.
Henry Kissinger in Hebrew is supposed to add up to 111 = 666 / 6 .
John F. Kennedy received 666 votes in the vice-presidential balloting at
the 1956 Democratic National Convention.
Napolean's name adds up to 666 in arabic if you leave out 2 letters.
Ronald Wilson Reagan (6 letters in each name).
Also, Ronnie once lived a California mansion donated by some of his rich
friends, when he moved in, he had the street number changed from 666 to
668.
Computer (a=6, b=12, c=18, etc) = 666.
BILL GATES (all in caps, in ASCII) = 663. Add 3 more, because he's Bill
Gates the 3rd.
The UPC bar code. (because the three delimiter bars have the code for 6).
The UNIX operating system. because the permission code for files with
read and write access for owner,group,and world is 666.
>BTW, I believe that many scholars think 666 refers to the Roman
>emperor Nero: 666 is, I am told, the value of the Hebrew version (nrwn
>qsr) of the *Greek* for Nero Caesar. Some ancient Latin manuscripts
>render the number, accordingly, as 616, which is the value of the
>Hebrew version (nrw qsr) of the *Latin* for Nero Caesar. But these
>things are outside my domain, and I will gladly stand corrected.
>
I think the Gematria version used the first 9 letters of the Hebrew
alphabet to correspond to 1 through 9. The next 9 letters were 10 - 90,
and the remaining 4 were 100 - 400.
Now if some kind soul would look up the Hebrew alphabet for us, we could
figure it out for ourselves.
Andrew Spring
Andrew...@ping.be (Andrew Spring) wrote:
>In article <DMn43...@pgh.nauticom.net>, elc...@nauticom.net (Lane Core
>Jr.) wrote:
>
>
>>BTW, I believe that many scholars think 666 refers to the Roman
>>emperor Nero: 666 is, I am told, the value of the Hebrew version (nrwn
>>qsr) of the *Greek* for Nero Caesar. Some ancient Latin manuscripts
>>render the number, accordingly, as 616, which is the value of the
>>Hebrew version (nrw qsr) of the *Latin* for Nero Caesar. But these
>>things are outside my domain, and I will gladly stand corrected.
>>
>
>I think the Gematria version used the first 9 letters of the Hebrew
>alphabet to correspond to 1 through 9. The next 9 letters were 10 - 90,
>and the remaining 4 were 100 - 400.
>
>Now if some kind soul would look up the Hebrew alphabet for us, we could
>figure it out for ourselves.
>
Sorry to follow up on my own post, but I found it!
Much thanks for the excellent work done by the folks at:
http://www.macom.co.il/hebrew/the.alphabet.html
* ALEPH 1 * YOD 10 * KUF 100
* BET 2 * KAF 20 * RESH 200
* GIMAL 3 * LAMED 30 * SHIN 300
* DALET 4 * MEM 40 * TAF 400
* HEH 5 * NUN 50
* VAV 6 * SAMECH 60
* ZAYIN 7 * AYIN 70
* HET 8 * PEH 80
* TET 9 * TZADI 90
So Nero[n] Caesar = nrw[n] qsr =
Nun + resh + vav [ + nun ] + kuf + samech + resh =
50 + 200 + 6 [ + 50 ] + 100 + 60 + 200 = 666 (or 616 as some
versions of revelation attest)!!!
Coincidence???
I think NOT!!!
tomm...@worldaccess.nl
It has nothing to do with the Pope or any other person/system whatsoever:
666 is the number of MANKIND; So the number of you, myself and everybody in
general.
Here`s why:
God created Adam on the 6th day.
Also the week has 7 days of wich 6 days are destined for man "to work" while
the seventh day is the day of God, for man to rest.
Also 6 is the number of man and mankind in general, wheras 7 is the number of
God.
THE REASON THAT THIS NUMBER 6 IS REPEATED 3 TIMES (SO:666) is, that this means
that this is DEFINITIVELY so:
Compare: When God called for the Prophet Samuel, while sleeping, GOD CALLED FOR
SAMUEL 3 TIMES and after the third time, Samuel understood, that it was God who
was calling him and that he was not mistaken.
So, when the number of mankind is 666, it means that we positively cannot
mistake about this.
The "Beast with the seven heads" (Revelations) which number is 666, IS MANKIND
ITSELF and in general it represents the results of his "work" during the 6
days that where given by God for this purpose.
If somebody is interested , let me know and I will explain more.
George Scileppi
>Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
>Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have: V=5,
>I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500, E=0 and
>I=1.
>
>5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
>
David:
Uh - excuse me, but why did you group the letters & numbers together in such a
manner? I did it thus:
51+1001+51+51+5001=6155
which is the number of nothing.
GSS
John Coggi
cn4...@abaco.coastalnet.com (Rhonda Zill) wrote:
#Andrew...@ping.be (Andrew Spring) wrote:
#
#
#>>It might be interesting to note that in the hebrew system for giving an
#>>numerical equivalent to letters ( Ain Bekar ) the letter ' Vau ' which
stands
#>>for 'V ' ' U ' 'OU' or ' W ' has the value of 6
#>>
#>>Therefore : w w w = 6 6 6 ....
#
OK, let's see: Satan = 666 = www = World Wide Web
Oh my God, the World Wide Web IS Satan! Burn your browsers!
Just a little Christian humor,
John
--
John M. Coggi | "No one will win the battle of the
The Aerospace Corporation | sexes. Thereıs too much fraternizing
http://www.aero.org | with the enemy.² - Henry Kissinger
john_...@qmail2.aero.org |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
**** KEEP BILL OFF THE HIGHWAY **** SUPPORT YOUR INDEPENDENT ISP ****
Andrew Spring
>There is a man who has a number in his official name that when
>calculated comes to 666. This man is the Pope. His official name is:
>VICARIVS FILII DEI. This name means "the vicar of the Son of God."
>Since the Pope is Roman Catholic we can justify using the numeric
>value of Roman numerals. The value of the letters in the Pope's name
>are as follows: V=5 I=1 C=100 A=0 R=0 S=0 F=0 L=50 D=500
>E=0. Is the Pope the man that Revelation 13:18 is talking about?
>"Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind." Romans 14:5
"What a terrible thing it is to waste one's mind or not to have a mind..."
Dan Quayle US Vice president.
This thread has now come full circle; if your news browser supports it,
check your news server for the previous articles you missed.
Personally, I'm getting off the merry-go-round right now.
.
Lane Core Jr.
>In article <4es1mo$f...@thor.atcon.com>, drk...@atcon.com (David King) wrote:
>>Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
>>Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have: V=5,
>>I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500, E=0 and
>>I=1.
>>5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
>>For those who insist the Latin translation of "Vicar" is VICARIUS, my
>>encyclopedia says:
>>U/u is the twenty-first letter of the English alphabet. The letter is
>>actually a variant of the next letter in the alphabet, V/v. The Latin
>>alphabet used V/v for both consonantal w and vocalic u, but in late Latin
>You are NVTS!!!
>Everyone knows the Beast is UNIX!
>--
>"Intelligent terminals and high speed terminals are very pleasant to use with _vi_" - From the _man_ pages for _ex_.
Shouldn't that be VNIX?
Lane Core Jr.
>In article <Andrew.Spring-1...@dialup19.hasselt.eunet.be>,
>Andrew...@ping.be (Andrew Spring) wrote:
>Coincidence???
>I think NOT!!!
>--
>"Intelligent terminals and high speed terminals are very pleasant to use with _vi_" - From the _man_ pages for _ex_.
Thank you very much!
Lane Core Jr.
>Andrew...@ping.be (Andrew Spring) wrote:
>>>It might be interesting to note that in the hebrew system for giving an
>>>numerical equivalent to letters ( Ain Bekar ) the letter ' Vau ' which stands
>>>for 'V ' ' U ' 'OU' or ' W ' has the value of 6
>>>
>>>Therefore : w w w = 6 6 6 ....
>>In the Gematria system that was used in that era, that would make WWW add
>>up to 18. What was your point?
>I'm still trying to figure out where www comes from, but even if I
>knew, I would ask why anyone thinks that we should use the Hebrew
>system for giving a numerical equivalent to letters.
>Revelation 13:18 tells us that the number 666 that we should be
>looking for is the number of a man. I take that to mean a specific
>man, since it says "His number is 666." The Bible gives us several
>prophecies that help us understand who the beast is. None of these
>prophecies describe a Hebrew man as beeing the beast so the number 666
>is probably not a "Hebrew" number.
>There is a man who has a number in his official name that when
>calculated comes to 666. This man is the Pope. His official name is:
>VICARIVS FILII DEI. This name means "the vicar of the Son of God."
>Since the Pope is Roman Catholic we can justify using the numeric
>value of Roman numerals. The value of the letters in the Pope's name
>are as follows: V=5 I=1 C=100 A=0 R=0 S=0 F=0 L=50 D=500
>E=0. Is the Pope the man that Revelation 13:18 is talking about?
No.
The pope's "official name" is not now, nor has it ever been, _Vicarius
Filii Dei_. It is not even a name: it is a title, but not a papal
title.
The current pope's "official name" is JOHANNES PAULUS II.
>"Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind." Romans 14:5
You got that right. ;)
>Rhonda
(I just love it when anti-Catholics GRASP AT STRAWS this way.)
Darrell Gentry
>
>2. In this particular case, everything seems like a straight forward
addition.
Vicar
>Vicar of Christ or VICARIVS CHRISTI, which does not add up to 666.
>
to uphold the papal right to the exalted title of Vicarius Filii Dei.
Maybe its not currently being used, but it was used in the past.
Donation of Constantine:
"As the Blessed Peter is seen to have been constituted vicar of the
Son of God on the earth, so the Pontiffs who are the representatives
of that same chief of the apostles, should obtain from us and our empire
the power of a supremacy greater than the clemency of our earthly
imperial serenity is seen to have conceded to it."
tomm...@worldaccess.nl
<Pine.ULT.3.91.960221...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.ed, thomas
williford <twi...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 tomm...@worldaccess.nl wrote:
>
> > The meaning of the number 666 is not difficult:
> > It has nothing to do with the Pope or any other person/system whatsoever:
> >
> > 666 is the number of MANKIND; So the number of you, myself and everybody in
> > general.
> >
> > Here`s why:
> >
> > God created Adam on the 6th day.
> > Also the week has 7 days of wich 6 days are destined for man "to work"
> while
> > the seventh day is the day of God, for man to rest.
> >
> > Also 6 is the number of man and mankind in general, wheras 7 is the number
> of
> > God.
> -----is this a supposition?>
>
> -----This is not a supposition: On the sixth day Adam was created,wheras the
seventh day was given to Man to rest from his work. And why should man rest
from his work on the seventh day?: because God is to finish His work with
Creation on this seventh day through means of Jesus Christ, who is the "Lord of
Sabbath(the sevent day): through Him Creation is completed. That`s why Jesus
was allowed to cure the sick people and do His miracles on the Sabbath, showing
this seventh day is the day of God and not the day of man.(but the scribes
didn`t understand why jesus "worked" on this day, thinking that He should
rest,like anyone else, on this particular day.
So it can be clear, that "6" belongs to Man and "7" belongs to God, for man not
to interfer.
> > THE REASON THAT THIS NUMBER 6 IS REPEATED 3 TIMES (SO:666) is, that this
> means
> > that this is DEFINITIVELY so:
> > Compare: When God called for the Prophet Samuel, while sleeping, GOD CALLED
> FOR
> > SAMUEL 3 TIMES and after the third time, Samuel understood, that it was God
> who
> > was calling him and that he was not mistaken.
> >
> > So, when the number of mankind is 666, it means that we positively cannot
> > mistake about this.
> >
> --wELL, IT'S ONE IDEA ANYWAY- AS GOOD AS ANY OTHER.
> Re:--The other ideas are in general, not correct (see below)
> -
>
> > The "Beast with the seven
> heads" (Revelations) which number is 666, IS MANKIND
> > ITSELF and in general it represents the results of his "work" during the 6
> > days that where given by God for this purpose.
> >
> >
> > If somebody is interested , let me know and I will explain more.
> >
> >
> >
> I think:
> -----The Beast has 7 heads- in part- because he will pretend to be
> THE God, but his number is 666 because he is actually only a man being
> used by Mr. D.
>
> Re:-----This idea is in general correct; but more specific it means as
> follows:
In the Bible, animals are representations of world-powers:
The seven heads of the beast represent the 7 world-powers, that have existed
through history of mankind, namely: The Babylonian, The Assyrian, The
Medo-Persion, The Egyptian, The Greek, The Roman and the Anglo-Americain. (the
latter in these days)
So, the "Beast with 7 heads" represents -through history- all that man is
capable to achieve in ruling the earth in stead of God doing this. It tels us,
that man`s rule is "beastley", wheras Gods Rule is perfect.
Later on (Rev."13:11-17) we see"the making of an image" of the
seven-headed-beast, putting all persons under compulsion, to accept his mark
(666).
The explanition for this is as follows:
When the 7 worl-powers wil have ceased to exist (IN THESE DAYS), an 8th power
will arise, possessing all the caracteristics of the 7 before.(Rev. 17:3-5,
9-14)
This eight and last World-Power will be the UNITED NATIONS, WHICH IS SOON TO
BECOME A WORLDGOVERNMENT proclaiming peace and paradise to come under it`s
rule. So fighting against "the Lamb" (Christ) taking His place.
(if you like: more to come)
1
> M.W.
tomm...@worldaccess.nl
<Pine.ULT.3.91.960221...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.ed, thomas
williford <twi...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 tomm...@worldaccess.nl wrote:
>
> > The meaning of the number 666 is not difficult:
> > It has nothing to do with the Pope or any other person/system whatsoever:
> >
> > 666 is the number of MANKIND; So the number of you, myself and everybody in
> > general.
> >
> > Here`s why:
> >
> > God created Adam on the 6th day.
> > Also the week has 7 days of wich 6 days are destined for man "to work"
> while
> > the seventh day is the day of God, for man to rest.
> >
> > Also 6 is the number of man and mankind in general, wheras 7 is the number
> of
> > God.
> -----is this a supposition?>
>
>
>
> > THE REASON THAT THIS NUMBER 6 IS REPEATED 3 TIMES (SO:666) is, that this
> means
> > that this is DEFINITIVELY so:
> > Compare: When God called for the Prophet Samuel, while sleeping, GOD CALLED
> FOR
> > SAMUEL 3 TIMES and after the third time, Samuel understood, that it was God
> who
> > was calling him and that he was not mistaken.
> >
> > So, when the number of mankind is 666, it means that we positively cannot
> > mistake about this.
> >
> --wELL, IT'S ONE IDEA ANYWAY- AS GOOD AS ANY OTHER.
>
>
>
> > The "Beast with the seven
> heads" (Revelations) which number is 666, IS MANKIND
> > ITSELF and in general it represents the results of his "work" during the 6
> > days that where given by God for this purpose.
> >
> >
> > If somebody is interested , let me know and I will explain more.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> I think:
> -----The Beast has 7 heads- in part- because he will pretend to be
> THE God, but his number is 666 because he is actually only a man being
> used by Mr. D.
>
>
> M.W.
Mark Barnes
"Give me half an hour and allow me to choose my language, and I could
make Hilary Clinton = 666"
thomas williford
On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Andrew Spring wrote:
> In article <4fvund$e...@treasure.coastalnet.com>,
> cn4...@abaco.coastalnet.com (Rhonda Zill) wrote:
>
>
> >There is a man who has a number in his official name that when
> >calculated comes to 666. This man is the Pope. His official name is:
> >VICARIVS FILII DEI. This name means "the vicar of the Son of God."
> >Since the Pope is Roman Catholic we can justify using the numeric
> >value of Roman numerals. The value of the letters in the Pope's name
> >are as follows: V=5 I=1 C=100 A=0 R=0 S=0 F=0 L=50 D=500
> >E=0. Is the Pope the man that Revelation 13:18 is talking about?
> >"Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind." Romans 14:5
-----Uh, gee, I'm only counting 656! No, and I don't really care,
anyway. There are more important things in life to focus on- the
Antichrist will come when he comes, and I doubt anyone's going to
accurately predict who that person is or will be. MW.
>
> "What a terrible thing it is to waste one's mind or not to have a mind..."
> Dan Quayle US Vice president.
>
> This thread has now come full circle; if your news browser supports it,
> check your news server for the previous articles you missed.
>
> Personally, I'm getting off the merry-go-round right now.
>
> .
>
thomas williford
On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Lane Core Jr. wrote:
> >--
> >"Intelligent terminals and high speed terminals are very pleasant to use with _vi_" - From the _man_ pages for _ex_.
>
> Thank you very much!
>
> *************************************
> Mr. Lane Core Jr. elc...@nauticom.net
> "Heart Speaks to Heart"
> *************************************
>
>
>
-------It is very interesting to play with numbers, but if Nero were the
antichrist, then why hasn't the rest of revelation come to pass? I can
think of a lot of things and people to connect with the number 666--
shoot- there was a food dehydrator on sale after a late night television
show; the price? $66.66! Hey, does that mean that the Antichrist is
currently selling blenders and concealer spray for bald spots!
Hmmm.
MW.
thomas williford
On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Lane Core Jr. wrote:
> Andrew...@ping.be (Andrew Spring) wrote:
>
> >In article <4es1mo$f...@thor.atcon.com>, drk...@atcon.com (David King) wrote:
>
>
> >>Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
> >>Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have: V=5,
> >>I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500, E=0 and
> >>I=1.
>
> >>5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
----Okay, so now it adds up! I was always weak at math. Well, I always
say- don't look at the numbers, look at the man! N.W.
>
> >>For those who insist the Latin translation of "Vicar" is VICARIUS, my
> >>encyclopedia says:
>
> >>U/u is the twenty-first letter of the English alphabet. The letter is
> >>actually a variant of the next letter in the alphabet, V/v. The Latin
> >>alphabet used V/v for both consonantal w and vocalic u, but in late Latin
>
> >You are NVTS!!!
>
> >Everyone knows the Beast is UNIX!
>
-------Actually, I think you could be close, there, friend! M.W.
> >--
> >"Intelligent terminals and high speed terminals are very pleasant to use with _vi_" - From the _man_ pages for _ex_.
>
> Shouldn't that be VNIX?
>
thomas williford
RICHARD YORK III ATLEE
> -----Uh, gee, I'm only counting 656! No, and I don't really care,
> anyway. There are more important things in life to focus on- the
> Antichrist will come when he comes, and I doubt anyone's going to
> accurately predict who that person is or will be. MW.
>
anyone else wants to try to figure out who the antichrist is, you're
welcome to it. Personally, I'll be content to just sit around and wait
until it actually happens and the prophecies start to come true about him.
Fudd
Andrew Spring
<Pine.ULT.3.91.960221...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>, thomas
williford <twi...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> wrote:
>>
>-------It is very interesting to play with numbers, but if Nero were the
>antichrist, then why hasn't the rest of revelation come to pass? I can
To break it to you gently, it's because John of Patmos wasn't really a
prophet. Maybe he thought he was, sincerely. But he wasn't. Revelation
is a crock, and the Rapture isn't going to happen.
tomm...@worldaccess.nl
tomm...@worldaccess.nl wrote:
> On 21-02-96 7:49, in message
> <Pine.ULT.3.91.960221...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.ed, thomas
> williford <twi...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 tomm...@worldaccess.nl wrote:
> >
> > > The meaning of the number 666 is not difficult:
> > > It has nothing to do with the Pope or any other person/system whatsoever:
> > >
> > > 666 is the number of MANKIND; So the number of you, myself and everybody
> in
> > > general.
> > >
> > > Here`s why:
> > >
> > > God created Adam on the 6th day.
> > > Also the week has 7 days of wich 6 days are destined for man "to work"
> > while
> > > the seventh day is the day of God, for man to rest.
> > >
> > > Also 6 is the number of man and mankind in general, wheras 7 is the
> number
> > of
> > > God.
> > -----is this a supposition?>
> >
> > -----This is not a supposition: On the sixth day Adam was created,wheras the
> seventh day was given to Man to rest from his work. And why should man rest
> from his work on the seventh day?: because God is to finish His work with
> Creation on this seventh day through means of Jesus Christ, who is the "Lord
> of
> Sabbath(the sevent day): through Him Creation is completed. That`s why Jesus
> was allowed to cure the sick people and do His miracles on the Sabbath,
> showing
> this seventh day is the day of God and not the day of man.(but the scribes
> didn`t understand why jesus "worked" on this day, thinking that He should
> rest,like anyone else, on this particular day.
>
> So it can be clear, that "6" belongs to Man and "7" belongs to God, for man
> not
> to interfer.
>
>
> > > THE REASON THAT THIS NUMBER 6 IS REPEATED 3 TIMES (SO:666) is, that this
> > means
> > > that this is DEFINITIVELY so:
> > > Compare: When God called for the Prophet Samuel, while sleeping, GOD
> CALLED
> > FOR
> > > SAMUEL 3 TIMES and after the third time, Samuel understood, that it was
> God
> > who
> > > was calling him and that he was not mistaken.
> > >
> > > So, when the number of mankind is 666, it means that we positively cannot
> > > mistake about this.
> > >
> > --wELL, IT'S ONE IDEA ANYWAY- AS GOOD AS ANY OTHER.
> > Re:--The other ideas are in general, not correct (see below)
> > -
> >
> > > The "Beast with the seven
> > heads" (Revelations) which number is 666, IS MANKIND
> > > ITSELF and in general it represents the results of his "work" during the
> 6
> > > days that where given by God for this purpose.
> > >
> > >
> > > If somebody is interested , let me know and I will explain more.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > I think:
> > -----The Beast has 7 heads- in part- because he will pretend to be
> > THE God, but his number is 666 because he is actually only a man being
> > used by Mr. D.
> >
Rick Atlee
> To break it to you gently, it's because John of Patmos wasn't really a
> prophet. Maybe he thought he was, sincerely. But he wasn't. Revelation
> is a crock, and the Rapture isn't going to happen.
>
What makes you say that? The man spoke directly from God, and just
because there are no stories, just letters, about him does not mean he is
not a prophet. John saw what he saw in a dream, and it is accepted as
inspired by God, just like all the other dreams of people you would
consider prophets!
Fudd
Ernst Wenisch
> "Give me half an hour and allow me to choose my language, and I could
> make Hilary Clinton = 666"
Try it with your own name, you won't succeed!
It takes less than half an hour to find the true!
Just pray to God, and admit you are a sinner.
David King
>
>
>
>>Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
>>Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have: V=5,
>>I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500, E=0 and
>>I=1.
>>
>>5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
>>
>
>
>Uh - excuse me, but why did you group the letters & numbers together in such a
>manner? I did it thus:
>
>51+1001+51+51+5001=6155
>
>which is the number of nothing.
>
>GSS
>
Sums are covered in the second grade if I remember George.
You probably need a refresher course.
David King
Andrew Spring
Rick Atlee <rya...@barbados.cc.odu.edu> wrote:
I'm not the only one who thinks it's a little flaky. St. Jerome said that
it contained more mysteries than answers. George Bernard Shaw said that
it resembled the product of a drug addict's fevered brain. Even Martin
Luther had his doubts about it: he said it was neither apostolic nor
prophetic, and stuck it in the appendix of his edition of the bible.
My problems start with verse number 1.
REV 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew
unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and
signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
The key word here is "shortly". John clearly thought that the events of
Revelation would take place "shortly". A period of 19 centuries is not
"shortly" and there is no use pretending that it is.
--
Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes
and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum
tubes and weigh only 1/2 tons. -- Popular Mechanics, March 1949
<http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=
0x78068A41>
Darrell Gentry
>Rick Atlee <rya...@barbados.cc.odu.edu> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Andrew Spring wrote:
>>
>>> To break it to you gently, it's because John of Patmos wasn't really a
>>> prophet. Maybe he thought he was, sincerely. But he wasn't.
Revelation
>>> is a crock, and the Rapture isn't going to happen.
>>>
>>What makes you say that? The man spoke directly from God, and just
>>because there are no stories, just letters, about him does not mean he is
>>not a prophet. John saw what he saw in a dream, and it is accepted as
>>inspired by God, just like all the other dreams of people you would
>>consider prophets!
>>
>
>I'm not the only one who thinks it's a little flaky. St. Jerome said that
>it contained more mysteries than answers. George Bernard Shaw said that
>it resembled the product of a drug addict's fevered brain. Even Martin
>Luther had his doubts about it: he said it was neither apostolic nor
>prophetic, and stuck it in the appendix of his edition of the bible.
Interesting. I hadn't heard that about Luthers edition before.
>My problems start with verse number 1.
>
>
>REV 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew
>unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and
>signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
>
>
>The key word here is "shortly". John clearly thought that the events of
>Revelation would take place "shortly". A period of 19 centuries is not
>"shortly" and there is no use pretending that it is.
Question is, in Gods terms, what is "shortly"?
Dennis
Andrew Filby
On 26 Feb 1996, Ian Stewart wrote:
> The Roman numerals definitely add to 666, there is no argument!!
>
M + D + C + L + X + V + I
1000 + 500 + 100 + 50 + 10 + 5 + 1 = 1666!!!
Perhaps there is more argument than you might think!!!
Andrew Filby.
>
>
>
Ian Stewart
an52...@anon.penet.fi
>>Translated into Latin, the "Son of God's Vicar" is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
>>Giving applicable values to the Roman numerals in the name, we have: V=5,
>>I=1, C=100, A=0, R=0, I=1, V=5, S=0, F=0, I=1, L=50, I=1, I=1, D=500, E=0 and
>>I=1.
>>
>>5+1+100+1+5+1+50+1+1+500+1 = 666. (Is anybody surprised?)
>>
>David:
>Uh - excuse me, but why did you group the letters & numbers together in such a
>manner? I did it thus:
>51+1001+51+51+5001=6155
>which is the number of nothing.
>GSS
Besides, in TRUE numerology, you would add like this:
5+1+1+0+0+1+5+1+5+0+1+1+5+0+0+1 = 27, and taking it further,
2+7 = 9 which I believe is a holy number in some parts of the Bible.
(I'm Presbyterian, by the way, not Catholic)
Richard H.
: On 21-02-96 7:49, in message
: williford <twi...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu> wrote:
: >
: > On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 tomm...@worldaccess.nl wrote:
: >
: > > The meaning of the number 666 is not difficult:
: > > It has nothing to do with the Pope or any other person/system whatsoever:
: > >
: > > 666 is the number of MANKIND; So the number of you, myself and everybody in
: > > general.
: > >
: > > Here`s why:
: > >
: > > God created Adam on the 6th day.
: > > Also the week has 7 days of wich 6 days are destined for man "to work"
: > while
: > > the seventh day is the day of God, for man to rest.
: > >
: > > Also 6 is the number of man and mankind in general, wheras 7 is the number
: > of
: > > God.
: > -----is this a supposition?>
: >
: >
: >
: > > THE REASON THAT THIS NUMBER 6 IS REPEATED 3 TIMES (SO:666) is, that this
: > means
: > > that this is DEFINITIVELY so:
: > > Compare: When God called for the Prophet Samuel, while sleeping, GOD CALLED
: > FOR
: > > SAMUEL 3 TIMES and after the third time, Samuel understood, that it was God
: > who
: > > was calling him and that he was not mistaken.
: > >
: > > So, when the number of mankind is 666, it means that we positively cannot
: > > mistake about this.
: > >
: > --wELL, IT'S ONE IDEA ANYWAY- AS GOOD AS ANY OTHER.
: >
: >
: >
: > > The "Beast with the seven
: > heads" (Revelations) which number is 666, IS MANKIND
: > > ITSELF and in general it represents the results of his "work" during the 6
: > > days that where given by God for this purpose.
: > >
: > >
: > > If somebody is interested , let me know and I will explain more.
: > >
: > >
: > >
: >
: >
: > I think:
: > -----The Beast has 7 heads- in part- because he will pretend to be
: > THE God, but his number is 666 because he is actually only a man being
: > used by Mr. D.
: >
: >
: > M.W.
--
******* http://www.dreamsandvisions.com Free books, midi, programs. *******
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his
deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Lucid346
The earth travels 66,600 MPH around the sun while in orbit - and WE are
ALL aboard !
This could be measured as 66.6 times the speed of the equator - if you
dont like MPH. The equator spins at exactly 1000 MPH- by the way.
an51...@anon.penet.fi
Hate to bring this to your attention, but you're still talking about
MPH at the equator (66.6 x 1000 MPH). The mile was not a unit of
measurement during the time Revelations was written. Nice try,
though.
SYD
I read somewhere in a book titled "The Second Comming" that using a form
of Hebrew numeracy the number 666 comes out to mean the solar mesiah i.e.
christ or antichrist.
SYD
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I mourn for living things,
For they have yet to die,
But those who are dead,
Will live forever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Andrew Filby
On 28 Feb 1996, Richard H. wrote:
> Lucid346 (luci...@aol.com) 's tidbit:
> : The beast is - us - collectively - mankind ! ALL humans.
> : The earth travels 66,600 MPH around the sun while in orbit - and WE are
> : ALL aboard !
> : This could be measured as 66.6 times the speed of the equator - if you
> : dont like MPH. The equator spins at exactly 1000 MPH- by the way.
>
>
> Sorry, all of mankind doesn't live on seven hills, kill saints, change
> Sabbath to sunday (times and laws) change ten commandments, and call
> themselves God.
***** But then who does, the Pope certainly doesn't. *****
>
>
> You got to take it all and put it together.
> Richard.
rrose
>
>
>On 28 Feb 1996, Richard H. wrote:
>
>> Lucid346 (luci...@aol.com) 's tidbit:
>> : The beast is - us - collectively - mankind ! ALL humans.
>> : The earth travels 66,600 MPH around the sun while in orbit - and WE are
>> : ALL aboard !
>> : This could be measured as 66.6 times the speed of the equator - if you
>> : dont like MPH. The equator spins at exactly 1000 MPH- by the way.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, all of mankind doesn't live on seven hills, kill saints, change
>> Sabbath to sunday (times and laws) change ten commandments, and call
>> themselves God.
>
>***** But then who does, the Pope certainly doesn't. *****
>
>>
Are you saying that you're pro-pope? I don't agree with the radical Protestants who try to twist everything around to fit their roma=
phobic views either, but I guess I'm trying to politely ask what you se as the differences between Protestants and Catholics, and wh=
at makes you a Protestant, as a lot of your views seem to be Catholic.
J.D.
Rick Atlee
> Andrew,
>
> Are you saying that you're pro-pope? I don't agree with the radical Protestants who try to twist everything around to fit their romaphobic views either, but I guess I'm trying to politely ask what you se as the differences between Protestants and Catholics, and what makes you a Protestant, as a lot of your views seem to be Catholic.
> (text cut)
> J.D.
>
Perhaps you should consider the fact that maybe he believes that it is
not necessary to tell your sins to a priest. Instead you can tell them
straight to God. In my book, that makes him a Protestant. Of course,
personally, I think trying to distinguish one Christian from another is
silly and stupid. We are all Christian, we have all accepted Christ into
our lives as the one true saviour, and for that we are saved. Don't act
so human! Think more like Christ.
Fudd
Andrew Filby
On 28 Feb 1996, Richard H. wrote:
> thomas williford (twi...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu) 's tidbit:
>
>
> : On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Andrew Spring wrote:
>
> : > In article <Pine.A32.3.91.960223...@barbados.cc.odu.edu>,
> : > Rick Atlee <rya...@barbados.cc.odu.edu> wrote:
> : >
> : > >On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Andrew Spring wrote:
> : > >
> : > >> To break it to you gently, it's because John of Patmos wasn't really a
> : > >> prophet. Maybe he thought he was, sincerely. But he wasn't. Revelation
> : > >> is a crock, and the Rapture isn't going to happen.
> : > >>
> : > >What makes you say that? The man spoke directly from God, and just
> : > >because there are no stories, just letters, about him does not mean he is
> : > >not a prophet. John saw what he saw in a dream, and it is accepted as
> : > >inspired by God, just like all the other dreams of people you would
> : > >consider prophets!
> : > >
> : > >Fudd
> : >
> : > I'm not the only one who thinks it's a little flaky. St. Jerome said that
> : > it contained more mysteries than answers. George Bernard Shaw said that
> : > it resembled the product of a drug addict's fevered brain. Even Martin
> : > Luther had his doubts about it: he said it was neither apostolic nor
> : > prophetic, and stuck it in the appendix of his edition of the bible.
> : >
>
> Well, I guess Jerome got it wrong then. Always thought catholic believe
> went against the Bible anyway... Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony:
> if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light
> in them.
>
Don't forget it was the Catholic Church that decided the canon. It's
a pity that so many Protestants don't recognise this or often have the
first cluue as to how it was put together, assuming it just mysteriously
appeared one day from its various constituent parts and was immediately
accepted by the whole Church from which they are of course descended and
from which the Catholics broke away.
>
> Bernard shaw was a philanderer, not one I would want to follow...
>
BUT WHAT ABOUT LUTHER???!!! I hope his omission was not another case of
selective and inconsitent anathematising that seems to be present in many
fundamentalist circles, but that there was a reason behind this.
By the way, I am a Protestant, not a Roman Catholic. I just feel this
anti-Catholic hjysteria is prejudiced and unbalanced.
Andrew FIlby.
>
> Remember, when you follow someone, that's where you're going...
>
>
> Richard
Jason Gottschalk
ilby <arf...@york.ac.uk> writes:
-|SNIP
|
-| Don't forget it was the Catholic Church that decided the canon. It's
-|a pity that so many Protestants don't recognise this or often have the
-|first cluue as to how it was put together, assuming it just mysteriously
-|appeared one day from its various constituent parts and was immediately
-|accepted by the whole Church from which they are of course descended and
-|from which the Catholics broke away.
-|
-|
-|
-|>
-|> Bernard shaw was a philanderer, not one I would want to follow...
-|>
-|
-|
-|BUT WHAT ABOUT LUTHER???!!! I hope his omission was not another case of
-|selective and inconsitent anathematising that seems to be present in many
-|fundamentalist circles, but that there was a reason behind this.
-|
-|By the way, I am a Protestant, not a Roman Catholic. I just feel this
-|anti-Catholic hjysteria is prejudiced and unbalanced.
-|
-|Andrew FIlby.
-|
-|>
-|> Remember, when you follow someone, that's where you're going...
-|>
-|>
-|> Richard
-|>
-|> --
-|> ******* http://www.dreamsandvisions.com Free books, midi, programs.
*******
-|> John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his
-|> deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
-|>
-|>
Lutherans follow Martin Luther. Lutherans believe that the Papacy is the
AntiChrist.
This is not based on Predjudice, Malice or Balance.
Jason Gottschalk | o...@tir.com
SYO Computer Engineering | http://www.tir.com/~os2
Connected at Warp Speed! | Computing circles around W95
Stephanie Rendino
: The beast is - us - collectively - mankind ! ALL humans.
: The earth travels 66,600 MPH around the sun while in orbit - and WE are
: ALL aboard !
: This could be measured as 66.6 times the speed of the equator - if you
: dont like MPH. The equator spins at exactly 1000 MPH- by the way.
Yes, but what if you're a Christian on the metric system?
Jason Gottschalk
-|
-|luci...@aol.com (Lucid346) wrote:
-|
-|>The beast is - us - collectively - mankind ! ALL humans.
-|>The earth travels 66,600 MPH around the sun while in orbit - and WE are
-|>ALL aboard !
-|>This could be measured as 66.6 times the speed of the equator - if you
-|>dont like MPH. The equator spins at exactly 1000 MPH- by the way.
-|
-|Hate to bring this to your attention, but you're still talking about
-|MPH at the equator (66.6 x 1000 MPH). The mile was not a unit of
-|measurement during the time Revelations was written. Nice try,
-|though.
-|
Besides, the earth travels at 1,035.83 MPH !
24,860 Miles around / 24 Hours per day
Andrew Filby
I do believe that I can have a full personal relationship with God, and
that I can pray directly to Him - this includes asking forgiveness for
sins. This is my Protestant belief - it may surprise you but this is also
Catholic belief also.
However, the practice of reconciliation with God includes reconciliation
with His Church. How can someone claim that he is reconciled to God if he
is not reconciled to the Church?
In Catholicism, this reconciliation is often put into effect by confession
to a priest, a representative of the Church. Yes, it is a necessary
process for Catholics for living in the full forgiveness of God, but then
isn't this reconciliation a necessary process for everyone however it is
achieved.
Interestingly, this form of confession remains available in many
`Protestant' Anglican churches.
Yours in Christ,
Andrew Filby.
P.S. I don't think that confession boxes are necessarily the best way of
achieving this reconciliation.
Andrew Filby
> Jason Gottschalk | o...@tir.com
> SYO Computer Engineering | http://www.tir.com/~os2
> Connected at Warp Speed! | Computing circles around W95
>
>
>
I'm sorry due to my editing the point of my insertion of Luther seems to
have been lost. Someone was commenting on Revelation and how various
churchmen through the ages had been dubious about it. The original writer
mentioned Luther, Shaw and Jerome. To which someone wrote in saying that
he was not surprised that Jerome was dubious about Revelation because he
was a doctor of the Catholic Church who supposedly do not hold to
Scripture. No mention of Martin Luther was made however. Something which
I didn't think was balanced given the views that were put forward.
By the way, do all Lutherans really think the Pope is the anti-christ?
I don't think so somehow!
Andrew Filby.
rrose
omaphobic views either, but I guess I'm trying to politely ask what you se as the differences between Protestants and Catholics, and=
what makes you a Protestant, as a lot of your views seem to be Catholic.
>> (text cut)
>
>> J.D.
>>
>Perhaps you should consider the fact that maybe he believes that it is
>not necessary to tell your sins to a priest. Instead you can tell them
>straight to God. In my book, that makes him a Protestant. Of course,
>personally, I think trying to distinguish one Christian from another is
>silly and stupid. We are all Christian, we have all accepted Christ into
>our lives as the one true saviour, and for that we are saved. Don't act
>so human! Think more like Christ.
>
>Fudd
So true, however not all of us have accepted Christ as our ONE true saviour. Many other people try to add other things into the salv=
ation scenario, making it Christ *plus* something else. I tried to call a conservative Catholic a "brother" in christ, right here in=
this medium, and he didn't seem to want to even allow that I WAS his "brother". If anyone accepts Christ as saviour, that's all it =
takes, but I don't think you should try to add anything else.
J.D.
rrose
Lutherans follow Christ! They follow Martin Luthers' interpretation of Scripture.
J.D.
rrose
>have been lost. Someone was commenting on Revelation and how various
>churchmen through the ages had been dubious about it. The original writer
>mentioned Luther, Shaw and Jerome. To which someone wrote in saying that
>he was not surprised that Jerome was dubious about Revelation because he
>was a doctor of the Catholic Church who supposedly do not hold to
>Scripture. No mention of Martin Luther was made however. Something which
>I didn't think was balanced given the views that were put forward.
>
>By the way, do all Lutherans really think the Pope is the anti-christ?
>I don't think so somehow!
>
> Andrew Filby.
This is one Lutheran who doesn't necessarily think that the pope is the anti-christ, however I believe that Luther several times cal=
led him that. Remember the times!
J.D.
Al Fogelman
>The Roman numerals definitely add to 666, there is no argument!!
666 is symbolic for the type of people described in the preceeding
verses and does not apply to the people described in the following
verses. By getting to know people you can soon tell the ones who fall
in each catagory and are thereby either marked or not marked.
Andrew Spring
(Darrell Gentry) wrote:
Darrel. Let me borrow $500 bucks from you.
I promise, I'll pay you back "shortly".
--
Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes
and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum
tubes and weigh only 1/2 tons. -- Popular Mechanics, March 1949
++++++++ PGP Public Key URL ++++++++++
<http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=
0x78068A41>
Harold Prekker
>
>>Rick Atlee <rya...@barbados.cc.odu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Andrew Spring wrote:
>>>
>>>> To break it to you gently, it's because John of Patmos wasn't really a
>>>> prophet. Maybe he thought he was, sincerely. But he wasn't.
>Revelation
>>>> is a crock, and the Rapture isn't going to happen.
>>>>
>>>What makes you say that? The man spoke directly from God, and just
>>>because there are no stories, just letters, about him does not mean he is
>
>>>not a prophet. John saw what he saw in a dream, and it is accepted as
>>>inspired by God, just like all the other dreams of people you would
>>>consider prophets!
>>>
>>
>
>>it contained more mysteries than answers. George Bernard Shaw said that
>>it resembled the product of a drug addict's fevered brain. Even Martin
>>Luther had his doubts about it: he said it was neither apostolic nor
>>prophetic, and stuck it in the appendix of his edition of the bible.
>
>
>
>>My problems start with verse number 1.
>>
>>
>>unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and
>>signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
>>
>>
>>The key word here is "shortly". John clearly thought that the events of
>>Revelation would take place "shortly". A period of 19 centuries is not
>>"shortly" and there is no use pretending that it is.
>
>Question is, in Gods terms, what is "shortly"?
>
First Let's say this (John of Patmos) was one of the Apostle's and was
banished to Patmos after there atemp to boil him in oil failed, he was John
the Beloved and if Jesus wanted to tell him something there no problem with
that. John was also the one who Jesus Instrusted his mother
to at the cross.
Second there is referance to a 1000 years is as a day and a day is as a 1000
years, to God There for 19 Days later is shortly...
Richard H.
Continued from part 4 ...
**********************************************************
CHAPTER 7
THE GLOBAL CONFLICT
Shakespeare wrote: 'There is a line by us unseen that crosses
every path, the hidden boundary between God's patience and His
wrath."
"A great crisis awaits the people of God. A Crisis awaits the
world. The most momentous struggle of all the ages is just before
us." Olson, R.W. THE CRISIS AHEAD (Angwin: Pacific Union College
Book Store, 1981), p. 5.
"At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which
standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time
of trouble, such as never was since there was nation even to that
same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
everyone that shall be written in the book." Daniel 12:1.
When the great warning of Revelation 14:9,10 against receiving
the mark of the beast has finished its work, and all have made up
their minds, probation closes. God's people have received the
great outpouring of the Holy Spirit - "the refreshing from the
presence of the Lord." And they're prepared for the trying ordeal
ahead. They are sealed with the "seal of the Living God." The
wicked are finally left to the master they have chosen. They've
rejected God's mercy, despised His tender love, and trampled on
His law. Now - unsheltered from Satan's insane wrath, they have no
shelter from his power. He will then plunge the entire world into
one great, final trouble spoken of in Daniel 12. God's wrath
poured out on this planet in rebellion will come in the form of
the seven last plagues brought to view in Revelation 16. Just as
the ten plagues of Egypt were against the gods that they
worshiped, so, the seven last plagues will be especially focused
against those who worship the beast, and his image.
As we study this stupendous subject and try to see the whole
picture, we find that God is so fair, so kind - and those upon
whom these plagues fall are so disobedient, so hateful, that no
one in the entire on-looking universe will accuse God of being
unfair for judging thus. After the first three devastating
plagues, an angel says "Tbou art righteous, Oh Lord.... because
thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and
prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are
worthy." Revelation 16:6.
The heaven-defying law has been passed and God's obedient people
have been persecuted, mocked, and sentenced to death - and now -
"I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven
angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God
upon the earth.
"And the first angel went, and poured out his vial upon the
earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men
which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped
his image." Revelation 16:1,2.
Can you imagine sores all over your body!
Notice, these gnawing, painful sores will afflict only those who
have the mark of the beast and worship his image. What will it be
like when this happens?
Can you picture the evening news telling the shocking story of
this gross epidemic? People by the thousands who have received the
"mark" for the purpose of saving their jobs and comforts of life
now find that their comfort is gone!
Instead of causing them to repent, and pray to God for
forgiveness, these terrible sores only cause them to "blaspheme
God" and "gnaw their tongues for pain."
God knows that if He gave them a million years more, they
wouldn't, change. When the plagues begin to fall, you'll know that
every case is decided for eternity. Medical science will be
helpless then. Can you picture doctors' offices and drug stores
packed with shouting, angry, crying victims? What medicine will
relieve the throbbing, biting, pain?
Not everyone will get these awful sores. Those who so lately
have been persecuted and mocked, are now safe. Angels of God
protect them. They have loved and been obedient to their Lord even
unto death, and now Jesus is very close to them. Though they'll be
sentenced to death, God's people will not die. Jesus will
interpose to save them. While the wicked are perishing with
pestilence and famine, God's people are sheltered in the shadow of
His hand.
All of a sudden the news breaks - the waters have turned to
blood!
"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it
became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in
the sea." Revelation 16:3. Under the third plague the rivers also
turn to blood. The word "soul" here means' "living creature."
Have you ever seen the blood of a dead man? It putrefies and
coagulates into a jelly mass. Those who have hated God's people
have tried to shed their blood. Now, picture them in the pain of
their feverish boils turning on their faucets for some relief, and
out comes the oozing "blood of a dead man."
"And I heard another out of the altar say, even so, Lord God
Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgements." Revelation 16:7.
Look at the beaches! Men are afraid. Where will they drink? They
have tried to shed the blood of the obedient. Now they have blood
to drink.
Now something unbelievable happens., The atmospheric layer that
shields the earth from the scorching heat fails.
"And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and
power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were
scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which
hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give Him
glory." Revelation 16:8,9.
Horrible pain is now experienced by the wicked. The combination
of scorching heat and raw sores is excruciating.
Miracles will abound, like in Moses day; some from God, some
from Satan. The wicked will not realize that the devil has
counterfeited the gifts of the Spirit. Many who have worked
miracles and done wonderful works, have trampled on God's Sabbath
and persecuted those who honored it. They've felt secure in God's
favor. But now their rage is great. Concerning the disobedient,
Jesus said, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My
Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord,
Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name done
many wonderful works? And then will I profess to them, I never
knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:21-23.
Now their true character is revealed. They "blaspheme God and
repent not."
Air-conditioners will not be able to cope with the intense heat.
The buildings will be like ovens. For the wicked, there'll be no
relief anywhere.
This plague is perfectly suited to the sin of the people. They
have honored the "day of the sun" according to the traditions of
men - and now God gives them sun! The New English Bible says that
men were "fearfully burned" during the fourth plague.
In that day, many will long for the shelter of God's mercy which
they have so long despised.
God's people will still be hiding in desolate places, but He who
provided food for Elijah in the wilderness will care for them.
While the wicked are dying from the pestilence, angels will shield
God's faithful people and supply their wants. God's promise is -
"When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their
tongue faileth for thirst, I the lord will hear them, I the God of
Israel will not forsake them." Isaiah 33:15,16; 41:17.
While the disobedient are shrieking in pain, reeking with sweat,
and their parched throats are raw for thirst, God's promise to His
people is: 'The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy
right hand. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by
night." Psalms 121:5-7.
In choosing to honor the beast and receive his "mark" instead of
honoring God and His "seal," the people have chosen darkness. Now
again, God gives them what they've chosen,
"And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat Of the
beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they pawed their
tongues for pain, and blasphemed the God of heaven because of
their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."
Revelation 16:10,11.
Can you imagine that! I think the human mind is inadequate to
conceive of the horror that will engulf all society. People of
high society, the rich, men of science, and the ignorant masses
will be paralyzed with pain, hate, and panic. Society will be
utter chaos! Of these scourges the Bible says: 'The land mourneth;
... because the harvest of the field is perished ... All the trees
of the field are withered: because joy is withered away from the
sons of men." "How do the beasts groan! The herds of cattle are
perplexed, because they have no pasture." Joel 1:10-12; 17-20. Oh,
if they had only responded to God's great kindness. His arms have
been stretched out in love. Now it's too late,
The disobedient have decreed that those who have received God's
seal cannot buy or sell. Now they themselves are starving with
famine and groping in utter darkness. This supernatural darkness
is a fit symbol of the gross darkness that has come upon the minds
of those who have turned away from the light of truth.
God's people are still hiding out. They've weeks ago lost their
jobs, homes, and fled for their lives before insane men urged on
by the religious leaders and evil angels. They've given up all
for- Christ. They've seen the wicked perishing while angels of God
provided food for them. To the obedient God's promise is given -
"Bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure." "A thousand
shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right band; but it
shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold
and see the reward of the wicked ... there shall no evil befall
thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling." Psalms
91:3-10.
By the fifth plague, the whole wicked world is really angry.
They've decided that those who honor God's Sabbath of the Bible
are the cause of the horrible convulsions of nature and they
determine to blot them from the earth!
The date is set. When the clock strikes midnight on a certain
day, God's obedient people will be sentenced to death!
To all appearances it seems that the doom of the people of God
is fixed. Day and night they cry to God for deliverance. Has God
forsaken them? This very experience prepares them for the bliss of
heaven as nothing else could.
In the midst of the chaos, the sixth angel pours out his vial.
And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river
Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the
kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean
spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of
the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
For they are spirits of devils working miracles, which go forth
unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them
to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." "And he gathered
them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue
Armageddon." Revelation 16:12-14,16.
Here's where the spirits of devils, by their miracles, prepare
the rulers and people of the world and "gather them together" to
fight against God and His people. This is the global -conflict.
This is the battle of Armageddon. It's earth's final battle
between good and evil. All have taken sides. The wicked are in the
majority and seemingly have great advantage - like David against
Goliath.
The word "Armageddon" is made of two Hebrew words "Har" and
"Megidon." This is not just a local battle fought in the Valley of
Megido. The word "Har" means "mountain." "Armageddon" is the word
to denote the great universal battle where the wicked turn against
God and His faithful people. This is a world-wide battle. The
national Sunday law of the U.S. has spread to all the nations of
the world. The Universal law seeks to, in one day, strike a
decisive blow that will wipe the hated sect from the face of the
earth.
When the great corrupt, Christian coalition of the world comes
to the place where it causes (amid miracles and Satanic delusion)
the leaders ("kings of the earth") to decree that those who will
not go along with the Sunday law should be put to death, it brings
the world to the place of sealing it's own doom.
The people of God, some still in prison, some hidden in forests
and mountains - still plead for God's protection, while companies
of armed men, hurried on by evil angels, are preparing to execute
the death sentence. It's now - in the darkest hour, that the God
of Israel will interpose to deliver His faithful people.
The date has been set to strike one stunning blow that will wipe
the hated sect from the face of the earth. At midnight the death
decree goes into effect. At midnight, - the Mighty God of heaven
will interpose to save His people. White, E.G. COSMIC CONFLICT
(Washington: Review & Herald Pub. Assoc., 1982), p. 557.
Watch what happens -
"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and
there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the
throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, 'and thunders
and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not
since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake and so
great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the
cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance
before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness
of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were
not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven,
every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God
because of the plague of the hail; for the plague was exceeding
great." Revelation 16:17-21.
BABYLON THE GREAT - THE MOTHER OF HARLOT'S has caused all
nations to drink of the wine of her mixture of Christian and
sun-worshiping practices. Now she drinks of the wine of the wrath
of God.
Satan's attempt to enforce the death decree against God's people
is the final climax in his king of swindles. God steps in to save
His people. And what a deliverance!
Everything in nature goes haywire. The mountains shake like
reeds in the wind. The wicked are paralyzed with abject terror and
look with amazement upon the scene, while the obedient watch with
solemn joy at the signs of their deliverance. Ragged rocks are
hurled in every direction. The sea is lashed into fury. The earth
heaves and swells. Its surface is breaking apart. Mountain chains
sink. Islands disappear. Wicked cities that have become like Sodom
are swallowed up by tidal waves. Great hailstones, each "about the
weight of a talent" are wreaking havoc. A talent is about 63
pounds. You can see that these, like cannon balls, will beat the
wicked cities to a pulp.
Splendid mansions erected by the rich with money embezzled from
the poor are dashed to pieces before their eyes. Prison walls
tumble down, and God's humble people, who have been held in
bondage for their faith are set free.
It's impossible to describe the horror and despair of those who
have trampled on God's requirements. The enemies of God's law,
from the ministers down, have a new conception of what is truth.
Too late, they see the true nature of the counterfeit sabbath that
the Roman church has brought in and the shaky foundation they've
been building on. Many now see that they're lost. They've chosen
the easy, popular way - and have received the mark of the beast.
They've followed the religious leaders instead of the plain word
of God. They've been led to believe that the majority couldn't be
wrong. Now they turn on their ministers and bitterly reproach them
for their sorry state. White, E.G. COSMIC CONFLICT (Washington:
Review & Herald Pub. Assoc., 1982), p. 558-561.
The global conflict has prepared the way for the coming of
Christ and His mighty host of angels during the last of the
plagues,
There appears in the sky a cloud which betokens the coming of
the "King of Kings and Lord of Lords." In solemn silence God's
people gaze upon it as it draws nearer and nearer to' the earth.
Brighter and brighter it becomes, and more glorious, until it's a
great white cloud, its glory like consuming fire. Jesus rides
forth as a mighty conqueror. "And the armies which were in heaven"
follow Him. Revelation 19:11,14. The whole heaven seems filled
with dazzling forms - "ten thousand times ten thousand, and
thousands of thousands." No pen can describe it. No human mind is
adequate to imagine the fantastic and holy scene. As the living
cloud comes still nearer, every eye beholds the lovely Jesus.
There's no crown of thorns on that holy brow, but now a crown of
glory rests upon His sacred head. His face outshines the dazzling
brightness of the sun.
"And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written,
King of Kings, and Lord of Lords." Revelation 19:16.
As the King of Glory descends on the cloud amid terrific
majesty, and wrapped in flaming fire, the earth trembles. The
ground heaves and swells and the very mountains move from their
foundations. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a
fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous
round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to
the earth,, that He may judge His people." Psalms 50:3,4.
"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich
men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every
bondman, and every free man hid themselves in the dens and in the
rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall
on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the
throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His
wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Revelation
6:15-17.
The jokes have stopped. Cursing, lying,, lips are now silent. In
the middle of their terror the wicked hear the voices of God's
people joyfully exclaiming: "Lo this is our God; we have waited
for Him, and He will save us." Isaiah 25:9.
While the earth is reeling like a drunkard; amid the terrific
roar of thunder, and upheavals of nature, the voice of the Son of
God calls His faithful ones of all ages from the grave. "For the
Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel,, and with the trump of God: and the dead
in, Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the
Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I
Thessalonians 4:16,17. God's living people are changed "in a
moment, in the twinkling of an eye." I Corinthians 15:51,52. Those
who have been raised from the four comers of the earth, and the
living who have just been changed, are "caught up to meet the Lord
in the air." I Thessalonians 4:16. Angels "gather together His
elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
"Little children are carried by holy angels to their mother's
arms. Friends long separated by death are united, nevermore to
part, and with songs of gladness ascend together to the city of
God." White, E.G. COSMIC CONFLICT (Washington: Review & Herald
Pub. Assoc., 1982), p. 561-566.
What a deliverance! What a Saviour!
I sincerely believe that there's no way for you to read these
amazing truths of God's word without having a deep longing to
follow Christ all the way and have a part in His glorious kingdom.
I know that you would have never read this very unusual book this
far unless you had a real interest in learning truth and following
Jesus all the way.
You've learned some of Satan's tactics and how he will swindle
the world into accepting his greatest hoax. You've learned how to
escape receiving the mark of the beast and something of God's
great love and mercy in giving us the warning. Now you see that
the corrupt woman of Revelation 17 named "Babylon," is the great
body of fallen Christianity which has become a mixture of truth
and sun-worshiping practices from ancient Babylon. You can see
that in Revelation 18:4, when God says, "Come out of her My
people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive
not of her plagues," He's calling you. It's a love call. It's
God's last call to all born-again believers to separate themselves
from organizations, no matter how friendly and kind the members
may be, which are not obeying Jesus fully and keeping all of God's
commandments.
Very soon, all will have made their choice for the "seal of God"
or the "mark of the beast." It's not just a matter of two days,
it's a matter worship, of loyalty-either to God, or to the beast
power. Now - while Jesus is pleading His blood for us in the Most
Holy Place in heaven - now, when "the hour of His judgement is
come" Rev. 14:7 - before our probation is closed forever, before
every case is decided for life or death even now, He is inviting
us to surrender all to Him and have fife and peace. Soon it will
be too late.
Because the lovely Jesus shed His precious blood for me on the
cross of Calvary, I choose, by the grace of God, to follow Him all
the way, keep all of His commandments, including His seventh-day
Sabbath, and receive the "seal of the living God." How about you?
Will you choose to be true to Him too? I want to live with Him
when He soon comes, don't you? He says, "Blessed are they that do
his commandments,, that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation
22:14.
hunger and thirst for truth. The honest are not content any more
with a watered down mixture. They want the pure truth. \ Errors
from the pulpit don't just fly over their heads any more. I
sincerely believe ,that you are an honest seeker for truth,
otherwise you would never have read this far in seeking to know
God's will.
There are other major questions that come to our minds What
about the millennial reign of Christ? What is the unpardonable
sin? How can we have freedom from guilt and peace of mind? Why are
there so many denominations?
all book to answer these and many other questions that you may
have. For this reason, I'm making available to you a second book
entitled "Cosmic Conflict." This intriguing volume will answer
these and other vital questions which will help us to prepare for
Jesus' coming. In the "Cosmic Conflict," you'll be able to learn
"Why Were Sin and Suffering Permitted," and "Who Are the Angels."
More of Satan's plots will be exposed. You'll be able to discover
whether or not there is any organization that actually follows the
requirements necessary for a group to constitute the "remnant
church" of Revelation 12:17. Also, you'll thrill to discover more
about what heaven will be like, and about the great outpouring of
the Holy Spirit. if you would like to have your own personal copy
of this most intriguing book, fill out the little order form on
the next page. We will rush it to you immediately.
May God richly bless you and your family as you continue to
study His marvelous word! 'The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be
with you all. Amen."
LAWé
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CHAPTER 8
THIS IS THE END OF THE BOOK.
THERE FOLLOWS AN ORDER FORM BLANK,
WHICH YOU MAY PRINT OUT BY HITTING "P".
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This is the last part of the Book, BUT BE SURE TO GET PART 6!
Astounding, amazing appendixes of rare information!!!
To be continued, part6...
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John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his
Richard H.
The last part...
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CHAPTER 9
APPENDIX 1
By the year 476 A.D. the Roman Empire had been broken up into
exactly ten kingdoms.
The historian Machiavelli, without the slightest reference to
this prophecy, gives the following list of the nations which
occupied the territory of the Western Empire at the time of the
fall of Romulus Augustus (476 A.D.), the last emperor of Rome: the
Lombards, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Ostrogoths, the
Visigoths, the Vandals, the Heruli, the Suevi, the Huns, and the
Saxons: ten in all.
They have never since the breaking up of old Rome been united
into one single empire; they have never formed one whole even like
the United States. No scheme of proud ambition seeking to reunite
the broken fragments has ever succeeded; when such have arisen,
they have been invariably dashed to pieces."
"And the division is as apparent now as ever. Plainly and
palpably inscribed on the map of Europe this day, it confronts the
skeptic with its silent but conclusive testimony to the
fulfillment of this great prophecy."
"The Divine Program of the World's History," by H. Grattan
Guenness, pgs. 318-321. (As quoted in "Bible Readings For the
Home," Review and Herald Publ. Assoc., London, MCMXLII, pgs
216,217).
***********************************************************
CHAPTER 10
APPENDIX IA
THE "BEAST" and the "LITTLE HORN"
1) The "little horn" has the "eyes of man."' Daniel 7:8.
The "beast" has the number of a man."' Revelation 13:18.
2) The "little horn" "wears out the saints of the Most High."'
Daniel 7:25.
The "beast" also "makes war with the saints." Rev. 13:7.
3) The "little horn" speaks "great words against the Most
High," Daniel 7.25.
The "beast" also "Opened his mouth in blasphemy against
God."' Revelation 13:6.
4) The "little horn" comes up among the ten horns (10 divisions
of Rome.) Daniel 7.8.
The "beast" receives it's power, seat, and great authority"' from
Rome (after the ten divisions were formed). Revelation 13:2.
*****************************************************************
CHAPTER 11
APPENDIX 2
The 1260 Year Reign of the Beast
The seven verses mentioning the 1260 year time period are all
speaking of the same power which persecutes God's people. These
texts are as follows: Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2, Daniel
7:25, Revelation 12:14, Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6 and
Daniel 12:7.
The key that unlocks the time prophecies is the principle given
in Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34. These verses reveal to us that
one day in prophecy equals one literal year. For this reason all
time prophecies must be first broken down into days. Using this
Bible "key," time prophecies work out perfectly and become easy to
understand.
A month in Bible reckoning contains 30 days. A year contains
360 days. This is the formula for understanding all prophetic
time.
In Revelation 11:2 and 12:14, the time given is "time," "times,"
and "half a time." This equals 3-1/2 times. From Daniel 4 we
learn that a "time" equals one literal year. In that chapter
you'll find that King Nebuchadnezzar lost his mind as Daniel
predicted, and crawled around in the field for &is seven times."
He was in that condition for 7 literal years. So 3-1/2 times
equals 3/2 years (3-1/2 years contain 1260 days).
Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 plainly give the time as 1260 days
(that the beast would persecute God's people).
Using the day for a year principle found in Ezekiel 4:6 and
Numbers 14:34, we see that this power would rule for 1260 years
before receiving its "deadly wound." When we take a look at the
beast power, we see that this is exactly what has happened. For
God to repeat this time period seven times like this shows the
importance which He places on it,
Here are the verses in sequence:
Revelation 11:2 and 13:5 describe this power as reigning for 42
months - (42 months with 30 days to a month contain 1260 days.)
Daniel 7:25 and 12:7, and Revelation 12:14 describe the beast as
reigning 3-1/2 "times," or years - (3-1/2 prophetic years also
contain 1260 days.)
Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 describe this persecuting power as
reigning 1260 days.
All seven texts describe this power as reigning 1260 prophetic
days which is 1260 literal years.
************************************************************
CHAPTER 12
APPENDIX 3
The following extracts are from authoritative works by Catholic
dignitaries concerning the title and position of their leader.
"All the names which are attributed to Christ in Scripture,
implying His supremacy over the church, are also attributed to the
Pope." Bellamin, "On the Authority of Councils," book 2, Chapter
17.
"For thou art the shepherd, thou are the physician, thou art the
director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on
earth." Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Councils," Vol. XIV,
Col. 109.
For the title "Lord God the Pope," see a gloss on the
Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4, Declaramus.
In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum
Deum Nostrum Papam" (Our Lord God the Pope.") occur in column 153.
In a Paris edition, they occur in column 140.
Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of
heaven, and earth, and purgatory." Prompta Bibliotheca," Feraris,
Vol. VI, pg. 26, article "Papa."
In a passage which is included in the Roman Catholic Canon Law,
Pope Innocent III declares that the Roman pontiff is "the
vicegerent upon earth, not of a mere man, but of very God;" and in
a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is
the vicegerent of Christ, Who is "very God and very man." See
Decretales Domini Gregorii Papae IX (Decretals of the Lord Pope
Gregory IX), liberi, de translatione Episcoporum, (on the
transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris
Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 188 1), Col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2,
Decretales, Col. 205.
POPEé
INFALLIBILITY
Among the twenty-seven propositions known as the "Dictates of
Hildebrand" (under the name of Pope Gregory VII) occur the
following:
" 2. That the Roman pontiff alone is justly styled universal.
" 6. That no person ... may live under the same roof with one
excommunicated by the Pope.
" 9. That all princes should kiss his feet only.
"19. That be can be judged by no one.
"22. That the Roman Church never erred, nor will it, according
to the scripture, ever err.
"27. That be can absolve subjects from their allegiance to
unrighteous rulers."
POPEé
In Clark's Commentary on Daniel 7:25, it says:
" They have assumed infallibility, which belongs only to God They
profess to forgive sin, which belongs only to God."
**************************************************************
CHAPTER 13
APPENDIX 4
THE BIBLE FORBIDDEN
In the Council of Toulouse, the church leaders ruled: "We
prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament ...
We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the
popular vernacular." "'The lords of the districts shall carefully
seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even
their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out." Council
Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229.
The church Council of Tarragona ruled that: "No one may possess
the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language,
and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local
bishop within eight days after the promulgation of this decree, so
that they may be burned." D. Lortsch, Histoire de la Bible en
France, 1910, p. 14.
After the Bible societies were formed they were classed with
Communism in an amazing decree. On December 8, 1866, Pope Pius
IX, in his encyclical Quanta Cura issued the following statement:
"Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies . .
pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."
*************************************************************
CHAPTER 14
APPENDIX 5
WAR WITH THE SAINTS
"Under these bloody maxims, those persecutions were carried on,
from the eleventh and twelfth centuries almost to the present day,
(written in 1845), which stand out on the page of history. After
the signal of open martyrdom had been given in the canons of
Orleans, these followed the extirpation of the Albigenses under
the form of a crusade the establishment of the Inquisition, the
cruel attempts to extinguish the Waldenses, the martyrdoms of the
Lollards, the cruel wars to exterminate the Bohemians, the burning
of Huss and Jerome, and multitudes of other confessors ... the
extinction by fire and sword of the Reformation in Spain and
Italy, by fraud and open persecution in Poland, and the massacre
of Bartholomew, . . . besides the slow and secret murders of the
holy tribunal of the Inquisition." T.R. Birks, M.A. The First Two
Visions of Daniel, (London: 1845) pg. 2589 259,
"The number of the victims of the Inquisition in Spain, is given
in 'The History of the Inquisition in Spain' by Llorente,
(formerly secretary of the Inquisition), pgs. 206-208. This
authority acknowledged that more than 300,000 suffered persecution
in Spain alone, of whom 31,912 died in the flames. Millions more
were slain for their faith throughout Europe." Printed in Bible
Readings For the Home, (Washington: Review & Herald Pub. Assoc.,
1942) p. 221,
"The church has persecuted. Only a tyro in church history will
deny that ... one hundred and fifty years after Constantine, the
Donatists were persecuted and sometimes put to death ....
Protestants were persecuted in France and Spain with the full
approval of the church authorities .... When she thinks it good to
use physical force, she will use it." The Western Watchmen (Roman
Catholic), of St. Louis.
**********************************************************
CHAPTER 15
APPENDIX 6
EDICT AGAINST THE WALDENSES
"A considerable portion of the text of the papal bull issued by
Innocent VIII in 1487 -against the Waldenses (the original of
which is in the library of the University of Cambridge) is given,
in an English translation, in John Dowling's History of Romanism
(1871 ed.), book 6, chapter 5; sec. 62." (Taken from Cosmic
Conflict (Washington: Review & Herald Pub. Assoc. 1982) p. 602.
**************************************************************
CHAPTER 16
APPENDIX 7
IMAGES
The second Council of Nicea, A.D. 787, was called to establish
image worship in the church. This council is recorded in
Ecclesiastical Annals, by Baronius, Vol. 9, pp. 391-407. (Antwerp,
1612); and Charles J. Hefele, A History of the Councils of the
Church From the Original Documents, book 18, chapter 1, secs. 332,
333; chapter 2, secs. 345-352 (T. and T. Clark ed., 1896), Vol. 5,
pp. 260 - 304, and 342 - 372.
J. Mendham, in THE SEVENTH GENERAL COUNCIL, THE SECOND OF NICEA,
Introduction, Pgs, iii-vi, says - "The worship of images ... was
one of those corruptions of Christianity which crept into the
church stealthily and almost without notice or observation. This
corruption did not, like other heresies, develop itself at once,
for in that case it would have met with decided censure and
rebuke.
"Images were first introduced into churches, not to be
worshiped, but either in place of books to give instruction to
those who could not read, or to excite devotion in the minds of
others ... but it was found that images brought into churches
darkened rather than enlightened the minds of the ignorant -
degraded rather than exalted the devotion of the worshiper."
************************************************************
CHAPTER 17
APPENDIX 8
CHANGE OF GOD'S LAW
"Although the ten commandments, are found in the Roman Catholic
Versions of the Scriptures, yet the faithful are instructed from
the catechisms of the church, and not from the Bible. As it
appears in these, (catechisms) the law of God has been changed and
virtually re-enacted by the Papacy.
"The second commandment, which forbids the making of, and bowing
down to images, is omitted in Catholic catechisms, and the tenth,
which forbids coveting, is divided into two." "Bible Readings For
the Home," (Washington: Review & Herald Pub. Assoc., 1942), p.
221.
On the opposite page is God's law as given by Himself, and as
changed by man.
THE LAW OF GOD
------------------------------------------------------------
AS GIVEN BY JEHOVAH AS CHANGED BY MAN
I I
Thou shalt have no other gods I am the Lord thy God:
before me. thou shalt not have strange
god's before me.
II
Thou shalt not make unto thee any
graven image, or any likeness of
anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the
earth: Thou shalt not bow down
thyself to them, nor serve them:
for I the Lord thy God am a
jealous God, visiting the
iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth
generation of them that hate me;
And showing mercy unto thousands
of them that love me, and keep my
commandments.
III II
Thou shalt not take the name of the Thou shalt not take the
Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord name of the Lord thy God
will not hold him guiltless that in vain.
taketh his name in vain.
IV III
Remember the sabbath day, to keep Remember that thou keep
it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, holy the Sabbath day.
and do all thy work: But the seventh
day is the sabbath of the Lord thy
God: in it thou shalt not do any
work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy
daughter, thy manservant, nor thy
maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy
stranger that is within thy gates: For
in six days the Lord made heaven
and earth, the sea, and all that in
them is, and rested the seventh day:
wherefore the Lord blessed the
sabbath day, and hallowed it.
V IV
Honour thy father and thy mother: Honor thy father and thy
that thy days may be long upon the mother.
land which the Lord thy God giveth
thee.
VI V
Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not kill.
VII VI
Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not commit
adultery.
VIII VII
Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not steal.
IX VIII
Thou shalt not bear false witness Thou shalt not bear false
against thy neighbour. witness against thy
neighbor.
X IX
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's Thou shalt not covet thy
house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.
neighbour's wife, nor his X
manservant, nor his maidservant, nor Thou shalt not covet thy
his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing neighbor's goods.
that is thy neighbour's.
EXODUS 20:3-17 Butlers Catechism, page 28
************************************************************
CHAPTER 18
APPENDIX 9
THE FIRST SUNDAY LAW
The earliest recognition of the observation of Sunday as a legal
duty is a constitution of Constantine in 321 A.D. enacting that
all courts of justice, inhabitants of towns, and workshops were to
be at rest on Sunday (venerabili die Solis), with an exception in
favor of those engaged in agricultural labor." Encyclopedia
Britannica, ninth edition, article "Sunday."
The Latin original is in the Codes Justiniani (Codes of
Justinian), lib. 3, title 12, lex. 3.
The law is given in Latin and in English in Philip Schaff's
History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, 3d period, chapter 7,
sec. 75, pg. 380, footnote 1.
And in Albert Henry Newman's A Manual of Church Histo ,
(Philadelphia: The American Baptist Publication 1933), rev. ed.,
Vol. 1, pp. 305-307.
And in Leroy E. Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers
(Washington, D.C.: Review & Herald Publishing Asoc., 1950), Vol.
1, pp. 376-38 1.
*************************************************************
CHAPTER 19
APPENDIX 10
"FIRST DAY" BIBLE TEXTS
Millions of conscientious Christians attend church every Sunday,
the first day of the week. They do so believing that somewhere,
somehow, someone changed the day of worship. Either that, or they
aren't aware that God set aside the seventh day, not the first day
of the week as His holy day.
It is true, a change has been made.
But by whom? We've discovered that God made the Sabbath during the
first week of earth's history. He set it aside as a weekly
appointment between man and Himself - as a blessing, a
refreshment, a date between two lovers so to speak (God and man.)
If God changed His mind about His special appointment day with us,
wouldn't He have recorded so momentous an adjustment in the Bible?
We've already seen that the beast power claims to have made the
change, but what does the Bible say about it?
There are eight texts in the New Testament that mention the first
day of the week. Look at them carefully.
Matthew 28:1
Mark 16:1,2
Mark 16:9
Luke 24:1
John 20:1
John 20:19
Acts 20:7,8
I Corinthians 1 6:1,2
The first five texts simply state that the women came to the
sepulchre early on the resurrection morning, and that Jesus rose
from the dead.
Now look up John 20:19 in your Bible. It tells us that Jesus
appeared to the disciples later on the resurrection day. It says
that the reason they were assembled was "for fear of the jews."
They were scared. No telling when the Jews might grab them and
treat them to the same fate as their Master. They were hiding.
They had seen their beloved Master die on Friday. They returned,
and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day
according to the commandment." Luke 23:56. And now they're hiding
with the doors shut " for fear of the Jews." John 20:19.
There's no mention of a change.
The seventh text is Acts 20:7,8. It says ""and upon the first day
Of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul
preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued
his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the
upper chamber, where they were gathered together."
This was a night meeting - the dark part of the first day of the
week. In Bible reckoning, the dark part of the day comes before
the light part. Genesis 1:5 - "and God called the light Day, and
the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the -morning
were the first day,"' The dark part comes first.
The Bible reckons a day from sunset to sunset.
The seventh day begins on sunset Friday evening. The first day of
the week begins sunset Saturday evening.
Paul is together with his friends on the dark part of the first
day of the week - Saturday night. This is a farewell gettogether.
He preached until mid-night, when poor Eutychus falls out the
window. (Acts 20:9).
You can imagine how relieved they were when it was found that God
spared his life. Verse eleven says that they talked till the
break of day and then Paul departed. Verse thirteen shows that
Paul spent that Sunday morning traveling to Assos.
There's nothing here either concerning a change of the Sabbath.
The New English Bible translates this text like this:
"On the Saturday night, in our assembly for the breaking of bread,
Paul, who was to leave the next day, addressed them, and went on
speaking until midnight," Acts 20:7.
The last text mentions the first day of the week in I Corinthians
16:1,2.
It says - "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have
given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the
first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as
God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."
Verse three tells that he will bring the offering to Jerusalem.
As he had done in Galatia, so Paul also requests of those in
Corinth to have a collection all ready when he would come to take
it to the poor saints in Jerusalem. There's nothing in the text
about a church service, but each person is to "lay by him in
store." the first of the week was the best time for the people to
set some money aside because later in the week it would be spent,
That's true today as well Paul requested this so that "there be no
gatherings when I come." I Corinthians 16:2.
At this time the Christians are suffering hardship in Jerusalem
and Paul is making his rounds to the churches taking up a
collection for them. (We should be that thoughtful today.)
There's nothing in this text either about a change of God's
Sabbath to Sunday.
Concerning worship, what was Paul's custom?
Here it is,
"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath
days reasoned with them out of the scriptures." Acts 17.2.
Jesus, as our example also had the custom of attending church on
Saturday, the seventh day. (Luke 4:.16).
The great time prophecies of the Bible have all been fulfilled on
schedule. Thus the accuracy and dependability of God's word are
firmly established.
**************************************************************
CHAPTER 20
APPENDIX 11
THE CEREMONIAL LAW
AND
THE TWO COVENANTS
The distinction between the Moral law of God (the ten
commandments), and the ceremonial law is plain.
Covenantsé
Look carefully at the difference in the two. The one with animal
sacrifices was nailed to the cross, the other will stand forever.
10 Commandments Ceremonial Law
1) Is called the "royal law" Is called the "law contained
James 2:8. in ordinances. Ephesians 2:15
2) Was spoken by God. Was spoken by Moses.
Deuteronomy 4:12,13. Leviticus 1:1-3
3) Was written with the Was written by Moses in a book.
finger of God. II Chronicles 35:12.
Exodus 31:18.
4) Was placed in the ark. Was placed in the side of the
Exodus 40:20, Hebrews 9:4. ark. Deuteronomy 31:24-26.
5) Is to "stand forever and Was nailed to the cross.
ever." Psalms 111:7.18. Colossians 2:14.
6) Was not destroyed by Christ. Was abolished by Christ.
Matthew 5:17 & 18. Ephesians 2:15.
Covenantsé
The two great commandments are "Love the Lord with all thy heart
and all thy soul and all thy mind."" The second great commandment
is "Love your neighbor as yourself." God's ten commandments are
hanging on these two, The first four, on the first table, tell us
how to love God with all our heart. (Have no other Gods, not
worship images, not take God's name in vain, and remember His
Sabbath day to keep it holy.) The last six, on the second table
deal with loving our neighbor as ourselves. (To honor our parents,
not kill, not commit adultery, not steal, not lie, not covet,)
Covenantsé
THE OLD AND NEW COVENANTS
The old covenant was ratified by the blood of animals (Exodus
24:5-8 and Hebrews 9:19,20) and based upon the promises of the
people that they would keep God's law.
Covenantsé
The new covenant is based on God's promise to write His law in our
hearts and it was ratified with the blood of Christ. (Hebrews 8:
1
0 and Jeremiah 31:33,34.)
Covenantsé
Hebrews 8:10 - "'For this is the covenant that I will make with
the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put
my laws into their minds, and write them in their hearts: and I
will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people."
*************************************************************
CHAPTER 21
APPENDIX 12
(TIME NOT LOST)
It takes the earth exactly 365 day, 5 hours, 48 minutes, 47.8
seconds to go around the sun.
But there's no way to put that into any calendar so our
calendar in constantly being updated. That's why we have a "leap
year." In 1582 they discovered that the year was a little longer
than 365 days, and the astronomers added ID (lays to bring the
month up to date, but the weekly cycle was not altered. Thursday
the 4th was followed by Friday the 15th. The calendar was updated
without altering the weekly cycle in any way.
Of course, even though we've had leap years down through the
centuries, the days of the week have never been changed and not
even a minute of time has been lost track of!
There have been many ancient calendars. The first modern calendar
as we have today was put into use in 45 B.C. by Julius Caesar.
The names of the days as we have them now were also used then.
Since the Babylonians worshipped the planets, many anciently began
to call the days of the week by the names of the planets. The
Hebrews and the Bible writers never did this. This is why, even
though the names of the days as we have them today, ie. Sunday,
Monday, etc. existed around the time of Christ, the Bible writers
never referred to the days by these names, since they were of
Pagan origin.
The old Mithra religion from the time of Babylon and Persia led to
the naming of the days of the week after the planets. Zoroaster
popularized the god, Mithra, in Persia about 630 B.C.
Since Mithra was supposedly a god of great courage, the Roman
soldiers became worshippers of it. In their travels they carried
the idea of naming the days of the week after the planets among
the Teutonic tribes of what is today known as Germany. The
Teutons substituted a few of their own gods instead of planets for
the names of days. (This was before the time of Christ.) The names
stuck, and we've had them ever since. Below is a list of the
Teutonic gods and the days of our week.
The name of the Teutonic gods were:
Sun------Sunday
Moon-----Monday
Tiu------Tuesday
Woden----Wednesday
Thor-----Thursday
Frigg----Friday
Seturn---Saturday
Though the calendar is constantly being updated to compensate for
the 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, 47.8 seconds in the year, yet,
the week of seven days has never been altered.
Historians writing around and even before the time of Christ, have
referred to "the day of the sun" and "the day of Saturn."
Dr. W.W. Campbell, director of the Lick Observatory in Mount
Hamilton, California assures us:
"The week of seven days has been in use ever since the days of
Moses, and we have no reason for supposing that any irregularities
have existed in the succession of the weeks and their days from
that time to the present." D.W. Cross Your Amazing Calendar
(Taunton: 1972) pp. 6,7.
Time can be traced to the very second by the positions of the
stars! I wrote to the Pentagon in Washington D.C., the Department
of Astronomy. And I received a courteous reply. They informed me
that from the positions of the stars, every moment of time has
been kept track of since before 500 B.C.
Dr. J.B. Dimbleby, premier chronologist to the British
Chronological and Astronomical Association, after years of careful
calculations asserts: "If men refused to observe weeks, and the
line of time was forgotten the day of the week could be recovered
by observing when the transits of the planets, or eclipses of the
Sun and Moon, occurred. These great sentinels of the sky keep
seven days with scientific accuracy, thundering out the seven days
inscribed on the inspired page." - All Past Time, p. 10.
It's interesting to note how Dr. C.E. Hale, noted astronomer for
whom the great "palomar telescope" has been named, expressed the
same truth in five forceful words: "No time has been lost."
***************************************************************
***************************************************************
Bibliography
Chapter 1
1) Vandeman, George DESTINATION LIFE, (Mountain View: Pacific
Press Pub. Assoc., 1980), p. 74.
2) White, E.G. Cosmic Conflict (Washington: Review and Herald Pub.
Assoc. 1982, p. 388.
3) IBID. p. 389.
4) VIOLENCE AND THE MASS MEDIA (New York: Harper & Row, 1968), p.
51.
5) IBID p. 43.
6) LIFE, January, 1988, p. 46.
7) Gulley, Norman IS THE MAJORITY MORAL?. (Washington: Review &
Herald, Pub. Assoc., 1981), p. 8.
8) Ibid.
9) Ibid. p. 10.
10) Ibid.
11) Ibid. p. 20.
Chapter 2
1) Smith, Uriah DANIEL AND THE REVELATION, (Nashville: Southern
Publishing Assoc., 1944), p. 42,43.
Chapter 3
1) Stringfellow, Bill ALL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, (Clermont:
Concerned Publications, 1981), p. 124.
2) Cited in LIBERTY, June, 1980, p. 13.
3) White, E.G. COSMIC CONFLICT, (Washington: Review & Herald Pub.
Assoc., 1982), p. 38-40.
Chapter 4
1) White, E.G. COSMIC CONFLICT, (Washington: Review & Herald Pub.
Assoc., 1982), p. 498.
2) The Catholic Church, The Renaissance, and Protestantism, p.
182-183.
3) White, E.G. COSMIC CONFLICT, (Washington: Review & Herald Pub.
Assoc., 1982), p. 72.
4) CATHOLIC MIRROR, Sept. 23, 1983. (Official organ of Cardinal
Gibbons).
5) CATHOLIC PRESS, (Sydney, Australia), Aug. 25, 1900.
Chapter 5
1) Thomas, H.F., Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, In answer to a
letter regarding the change of the-Sabbath.
2) Father Enright C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral College, Kansas
City, Mo., (In HISTORY OF THE SABBATH), p. 802.
Chapter 6
1) Stringfellow, Bill ALL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD. (Clermont:
Concerned Publications, 1981), p. 134-135.
2) CATHOLIC TWIN CIRCLE, August 25, 1985, Art. "Sacking Sunday."
3) LIBERTY CONFIDENTIAL NEWSLETTER Vol 5, 1982.
4) THESE TIMES, April, 1982. Norman Gulley, "LIFE AFTER DEATH -
WHAT ABOUT THE NEW EVIDENCE?'
Chapter 7
1) Olson, R.W. THE CRISIS AHEAD (Angwin: Pacific Union College
Book Store, 1981), p. 5.
2) White, E.G. COSMIC CONFLICT (Washington: Review & Herald Pub.
Assoc., 1982), p. 557.
3) Ibid. p. 558-561.
4) Ibid. p. 561-566.
*************************************************************
THE END (is coming soon...)
Richard, the end guy.
Richard H.
Continued from part 3...
************************************************************
Those who love God with all of their hearts will not conform to
the pressure - come what may. They stand firm in the face of
death, and receive the seal of the living God in their foreheads.
Is this your choice? It's no trivial thing - it's a matter of
eternal life, or just the opposite.
Concerning God's seal it says:
"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the
seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four
angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till
we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
Revelation 7:2,3.
"Winds" in prophecy stand for strife and war. A global war is
coming, as we'll soon see. But here,, the angels are holding it
back until the servants of God can have a chance to receive Ms
seal. It would have all broken loose before now but God in His
great love and mercy, is holding it back - only a little longer.
There have been "smoke screens." The "superpowers" and other
nations have had a number of "peace" talks. Nations are talking
peace while preparing for "high tech" war. 'Peace, peace" is
cried, when there is no peace.
It's no accident that the "Mark of the beast" hasn't yet been
enforced. But soon the angels will start to let loose! Whether by
T.V., radio, or by seeing the persecution of others in the courts
who have God's seal, people will learn the difference between the
"seal" and the "mark" and will take their stand. This very book
may be one method God has chosen for you to find out these
fantastic facts! It's no coincidence that you are reading it now.
God is waiting for the sincere, humble followers of Jesus to learn
the great issues involved and to be able to receive His seal which
Satan has tried to keep from them.
When all learn the issues involved, and make their final choice
- it's closing time! Then comes the close of probation for the
human race, the seven last plagues, and earth's last, stupendous
battle, (we'll look at these things in a few minutes). Where you
stand then is determined by the choice you make now!
First of all, what is God's "seal?" A seal is something having
to do with legal affairs. A law is stamped with the seal of the
ruling government. A seal has three parts:
1) The name of the ruler.
2) The ruler's title.
3) The territory over which he rules.
When the government seal is on a law, or on currency, it is
official. The whole loyal nation stands behind it. God's seal
makes His law official, and the whole loyal universe stands behind
it.
Anyone disloyal to the seal of the government, and to the law
upon which it is attached, is looked upon as being disloyal to the
government itself
Just as a government ruler's seal is placed in his law to make
it official, God's seal is in His law. Here's what God says: "Bind
up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples." Isaiah 8:16.
Where are we sealed? In the forehead. His law is in our hearts.
Under the new covenant, His promise is:
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those
day, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in
their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10: 16.
The Holy Spirit places the seal of God in our foreheads when we
choose it. The forehead contains the "frontal lobe." This section
of the brain is where our conscience is. When you receive the seal
of God in your forehead, it means you have it in your conscience.
You believe in it. You're loyal to it,
Just as the government ruler uses his "seal" of government to
enforce the laws of the land, God uses His "seal" to enforce His
law. The beast will use his seal (mark), to try to enforce his law
in place of God's.
Where will you find the seal of God with its three parts? In the
very center of His law. Take a close look:
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou
labour and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of
the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work ... For in six
days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them
is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the
Sabbath day and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11.
This is the only place in the Bible where you will find God's
seal. Here are the three parts of the seal.
1) His name - "the Lord."
2) His title - "thy God" (Creator).
3) His territory - "heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in
them is."
That is fantastic! No wonder Satan has worked so hard to hide
the truth of the sacred Sabbath from us. It's God's sign!
You may ask "Is the Sabbath really the seal of God?" Look at
Ezekiel 20:12. "Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a
sign between me and them that they might know that I am the Lord
that sanctify them" "And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a
sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your
God." Ezekiel 20:20. (The word "sign" means the same as "seal"-
see Romans 4:11).
What could be clearer? The seal of God is His Sabbath.
Satan knew that he had to get at this very part. No wonder the
beast ripped it out and put in a substitute!
Look at this astonishing statement concerning her act of
changing God's Sabbath to Sunday - "Of course the Catholic Church
claims that the change was her act., And the act (get this now) is
a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious
matters."! Thomas, H.F., Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, In
answer to a letter regarding the change of the-Sabbath.
Sunday worship is the mark of the Papacy's authority. The mark.
Sunday worship is the "mark of the beast!"
The issues are plain. God says that He is the true God. He has
given His Sabbath as a sign of His authority as the Creator of
all. By keeping it, we recognize His authority. But the Catholic
church says in effect:
"No! Keep the first day of the week, and lo, the entire
civilized world bows in reverent obedience to the command of the
holy Catholic church." Father Enright C.S.S.R. of the Redemptoral
College, Kansas City, Mo., (In HISTORY OF THE SABBATH), p. 802.
"It's the mark of our authority to over-rule God's law."
But what about all of our loved ones who are keeping Sunday and
don't know any better? Do they have the mark of the beast?
No! Only those who know better and realize that they are
breaking God's fourth commandment are held accountable. The Bible
says, 'Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not,
to him it is sin." James 4:17. You and I know now and are held
accountable. Soon all will know. God is making this very point a
great test for the world in the last days. It will separate those
who really love God enough to obey Him, even amid persecution,
from those who merely claim to be Christians but like Pilate, will
compromise, go along with the crowd - and end up with the mark of
the beast. The "Mark won't officially be received until it is
enforced by the "two horned beast" of Revelation 13.
We certainly don't want to hurt our loving Saviour by breaking
any of His commandments. That would break His heart. Sin hurts Him
most of all. He suffered agony on the cross to take away our sins.
Blood ran from His body. His love for us is very tender. Those who
willfully receive the mark of the beast are willing to hurt the
loving heart of God. As we choose to keep all of His commandments,
it makes Him glad.
As you begin to worship Him in a special way on His Sabbath, He
will make it the happiest day of the week for you. You'll be able
to lay aside your cares and labours one whole day and have a
beautiful rest with Jesus - not only physically, but a rest of
soul, a joyful peace and freedom from guilt.
If you happen to work on Sabbath, He can help you with that too.
I've never seen it fail. Those who determine to keep Ms Sabbath
holy and not work on Saturday, have God's special care and
miraculous providence. He will either help you get the Sabbath off
from work, or if you have to lose your job, He will give you a
better one! I guarantee it. That's God! That's our kind Heavenly
Father.
Every person on the earth will be tested on this very point.
Millions around the world have discovered these amazing truths
just like you have and are rejoicing in a closer walk with Jesus
than ever before.
Here's another question - what does it mean to receive the mark
in your hand?
Remember, to receive it in the forehead means that you believe
in it, you're loyal to it. (There will also be an outward sign of
some kind whereby people will be able to tell who has the mark and
who doesn't. We'll study that in a minute). To receive it in the
hand means that when the mark is enforced by the "image of the
beast," they go along with it, not because they believe in it, but
just to be able to buy and sell, to keep their jobs, and save
their lives. The hand is a symbol of work and making a living.
This is a shocking thought! How could anything like that happen
in our free country? If the "image of the beast" tries to force
everyone to receive the "mark of the beast," how does he do it?
Who is the "image of the beast" anyway?
*********************************************************
CHAPTER 6
THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST
Who is the "image of the beast?"
What does it do?
Who gives it power?
It gets more explosive as we go. It's all in Revelation 13.
Here's the picture:
"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; (we've
already learned that this is the United States) and he had two
horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all
the power of the first beast before him and causeth the earth and
them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly
wound was heated ... and he had power to give life unto the image
of the beast that the image of the beast should both speak, and
cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast
should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich
and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or
in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he
that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his
name." Revelation 13:11,12,15-17.
Man! Just to think of it turns my stomach up-side down.
Even though it seems impossible, God's word says it will happen.
First let me say that I love my country. I just got back from
Europe and it was great to be back. But this is what God's word
says.
The United States (the two horned beast), will cause all to
worship the first beast by enforcing the "mark of the first beast
by law! The word "cause" in the original Greek means "force."
A national Sunday law will be enforced in our country. In
chapter one we've already seen that it is coming and some of the
reasons why.
We've already learned that the "two horned beast' is the U.S.
The first beast is the Papacy. The image of the beast is a
religious power just like the beast in our country teaching many
of the same false teachings - the majority of the Protestant
world.
To say it plainly, Revelation 13 is revealing to us the
astonishing fact that Protestant America will cause all to worship
the Papacy and receive its "mark by passing a national -Sunday
law, and that all who do not go along with it Will suffer the
consequences!
When man reaches the depth of spiritual decay and passes that
law, it will not only make an "image" to the beast in our country
- and copy the old papal principle of persecution, it will set up
the procedure for all to receive the "mark of the beast!"
Stringfellow, Bill ALL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD. (Clermont:
Concerned Publications, 1981), p. 134-135.
It's coming clear! You see, it won't be the beast which enforces
its "mark" by law in our country, it will be its "image"
Protestant America.
It all boils down to our being forced to either obey the laws of
our beloved country and disobey God, or having to violate the laws
of the land in order to obey our Lord. That's a real test! If you
are faithful and true to God, you'll find yourself, for a short
time before Christ comes, without a job, without the right to buy
or sell, and even under the death penalty!
Does this sound impossible? It's already in progress!
Large religious groups such as the Lord's Day Alliance want it
and already have articles in print concerning it. Is the principle
of "separation of church and state" crumbling?
The national Catholic journal, Catholic Twin Circle, said, "All
Americans would do well to petition the President and the Congress
to make a Federal law - an amendment to the Constitution if need
be - to re-establish the Sabbath [meaning Sunday] as a national
Day of Rest." CATHOLIC TWIN CIRCLE, August 25, 1985, Art.
"Sacking Sunday."
These powerful groups have genuine concerns. They're working for
many good things - better T.V. programs, to save the family, etc.
But what they don't realize is that when the U.S. actually passes
a national Sunday law, it has taken away the religious freedom of
those who choose to keep God's day instead of the day of the sun
which the Roman church brought in from pagan sun worship - it is
enforcing the "mark of the beast!" Those who go along with this
oppressive law while knowing what they are doing will most
definitely receive the "mark of the beast." Why?
Because they will be disobeying the commandment of God in order
to obey the tradition of men. Jesus said, "Howbeit in vain do they
worship me, teaching for, doctrine the commandments of men." Mark
7:7.
Don't get me wrong. I love my President and my country. I'm just
sharing the facts.
If your head is still spinning at the shock of a future
nationwide Sunday law and persecution in our country, (as mine
was), all I can say is - draw close to God! - closer than you've
ever been in your life. He will help you. These things are coming
with swift surety.
Believe it or not, in Virginia, my home state, it's already been
done. I mean a mandatory Sunday law - and the death sentence!
Get this shocking quote.
In 1610, the first Sunday law in America, in Virginia, required:
"Every man and woman shall repair in the morning to the divine
service and sermons preached upon the Sabbath (Sunday), and in the
afternoon to divine service, and catechizing, upon pain for the
first fault to lose their provision and the allowance for the
whole week following; for the second, to lose the said allowance
and also be whipped; and for the third to suffer death." III Laws
and Orders, Divine, Politique, and Martial, for the Colony in
Virginia: first established by Sir Thomas Gates, knight,
Lieutenant - General, the 24th of May, 1610.
Did you know that the old Sunday blue laws are still on the
books in Virginia? They have never been removed.
"It's unconstitutional," said a lawyer living in Richmond,
(speaking of the Sunday law there). "It's a religious law and it's
unconstitutional." But it's still there.
Most states have had these "blue laws" enforced on and off
throughout the last two hundred years. But the national law will
enforce the "mark" of the beast.
I Do you see? God knows what He is talking about and has given
us warning - a warning of love.
Identification cards, numbers - something like this will allow
the followers of the Sunday law to buy and sell. They will have
these "temporary" benefits. Tremendous pressure will be on - to
conform.
What will stir the people to bring in a nation-wide Sunday law?
Crime will be a major factor. Have you noticed the death
sentence coming back? Yes! Crime has shot out of control. People
are scared. People are angry at crime - and this is what is
bringing back the death sentence. Why, just a few hours ago I
stopped at the post office. After seeing the headlines of the
newspaper in the rack, I had to get one. The headlines read,
"KILLER ORDERED EXECUTED."
A young man has been ordered executed for murdering a two year
old little girl of Wildwood, Florida. The infant was kidnapped,
molested, and buried alive. Man! You, can see why, with crimes of
this horrible magnitude, the death sentence is coming back.
The judge himself, pronounced that it was proved that 'The
capital felony was especially heinous, wicked, evil, atrocious,
and cruel." Citrus Chronicle News.
"Several of the young man's family members", the paper said,
"kissed and hugged the prosecutor after the proceedings were
over."
The Bible in many places pronounces the death sentence for the
crimes of murder, rape, witchcraft, homosexuality, etc. (Genesis
9:5,6; Deuteronomy 22:25-29; Leviticus 20:13; Exodus 22:18). Last
year less than 400 people were on death row in the U.S. Now the
figure tops 1100! Public opinion, only recently against capital
punishment, now favors it two to one. According to Bible prophecy
it will come back.
Of all horrors! It will come back and be used against those who
love and obey God! "And he had power to give life unto the image
of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and
cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast should
be killed." Revelation 13:15.
Just days ago, on a city street in Atlantic City, New Jersy, a
group of people talked with a man who keeps the Bible Sabbath.
They said to him (Tony is his name), "What would you do if you
were forced to worship on Sunday now instead of Saturday?" And
then they added, "What if it costs you your life?
"You can have my life," Tony said, "I'm following the Bible."
Amazing! Did that group on the street know what they were
saying?
Do people know what's going on? To use force is to use the
methods of the "dragon." I pray to God that He will hold such
atrocities back in our country. I'm thankful to know that He will
- until "the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads."
The second reason that the Sunday law is being urged is the
economic crisis. You are so aware of the situation, that I don't
even have to comment on it.
The third reason is - the religious leaders - of an people, are
stirring up the nation for this law which they will make people
think is so needful. As stated in chapter one, already media
messages and articles have been circulating all over the country
urging the populace that - 'There will be no relief from mounting
economic disaster until Sunday is strictly enforced by government
decrees and action." LIBERTY CONFIDENTIAL NEWSLETTER Vol 5,
1982.
Now you and I can see clearly that this is a fulfillment of
prophecy, urging the nation to enforce the "mark of the beast!"
But to the average person who knows almost nothing about the
Bible, this plea sounds pretty good.
Another thing that will help it come is miracles. Have you
noticed the tremendous surge of interest in the supernatural
lately? God is certainly a God of miracles. And because of this,
many believe that all miracles are from God. Not knowing their
Bibles, they will be the more easily fooled by Satan's miracles.
Get this -
"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the
mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of
the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of
devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the
earth and of the whole world." Revelation 16:13,14.
The point here is that devils work miracles as well as God. By
this deceptive means, the whole world will be deceived into
worshiping the beast and receiving its mark. Through miracles,
many will think that they have conclusive evidence that the
oppressive law is of God and that they should go along with it to
save the economy, and the nation!
One of the main ways these lying miracles will fool millions is
through people trying to contact dead loved ones who are
supposedly communicating from heaven. To people who do not know
the plain word of God, this will be an overwhelming delusion!
The Bible forbids anyone to try to contact the dead because when
they do, they are inviting evil spirits to speak to them. This is
why people who did this type of thing in Bible times were put to
death.
But those in our modem society will fall into this very pit!
Already Satan is setting things up for it. "According to the
Greeley poll, one in four Americans has tried to contact the dead!
And half of the widows in America and Iceland admit to
communication with the dead! THESE TIMES, April, 1982. Norman
Gulley, "LIFE AFTER DEATH - WHAT ABOUT THE NEW EVIDENCE?'
In order to pass a national Sunday law, the constitution must
first be effected. The grand principle of separation of church and
state, must first be undermined (especially the first amendment).
Have you noticed anyone talking about changing the first
amendment lately? Many states have requested a constitutional
convention; but the alarming thing is that many leaders do not
believe now that "separation of church and state" even exists!
According to prophecy, these great principles of the constitution
will be repudiated. But God expects us as His children to do all
we can to hold it back, The pilgrims shed their blood to provide
for us a nation free from religious persecution and intolerance.
Should we see our religious freedom go down the drain and do
nothing?
The churches which have Sunday in common will unite in a grand
movement so that the world can be converted. Already, the
religious leaders have been getting their church people into
politics. (Since the national Sunday law will be a religious law,
it makes sense for the devil to have them get the churches into
politics, and try to collapse the separation of church and state
to get religious laws). It's shocking, but most of the great
political as well as religious leaders are against the separation
of church and state now. Have you noticed it? They're not trying
to hide it. Oh yes! It's shocking.
The Sunday law will be seen as just the thing to solve the
horrendous problems we're facing, and to unite the whole Christian
world.
Cold chills went down my spine as, in the middle of the night,
on a powerful AM station near Washington D.C., I heard a deep
voice. Cold as steel, it proclaimed that the curse of God rests
upon us and will not be removed until the nation repents, and
turns back to God by keeping Sunday holy. It will be the religious
leaders to a large degree who will compel all to "worship the
first beast." To worship the first beast, you don't have to join
a
certain church. All you would have to do is follow the mark of its
authority instead of the sign of God's authority - and you would
be honoring that power more than God; in His sight - worshiping
it.
Believe it or not, the Bible foretells that the atrocities of
the dark ages are to be repeated! Society is being manipulated to
the degree that in the near future, to receive the 'mark of the
beast" will be the popular thing to do! "And all the world
wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which
gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped beast, saying, Who
is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
Revelation 13:3,4. Those who dare oppose this law will be seen as
"rejects of society." About the worst thing you can say about a
person now days is to call him a member of a "cult" or a "sect."
Those who oppose the mark of the beast, will be seen as "cultists"
of the worst kind. They'll be worked with by the authorities. When
fines and all manner of economic boycott have failed, then they
will be sentenced to death. Revelation 13:15-17.
Men, women, and children from all walks of life will be fleeing
for their lives and hiding in the most desolate areas, or, if
caught, cast into jails to await the penalty. The war, strife, and
terrible calamities of nature will be blamed on them. Like their
Saviour, and millions of martyrs before them they'll be rejected
by loved ones,, mocked, and looked upon as the "poor fools who
have brought all this trouble on us."
As those loyal to God are brought to court for their faith, the
issues about God's true Sabbath will spread around the world. The
truth of God's fourth commandment will be seen in contrast with
the counterfeit day which the image of the beast is trying to
enforce by law. Notwithstanding the strife, pleasure seeking, and
chaos of this world, all will be led to receive either the "seal
of God" or the "mark of the beast."
Spirits of devils go out to deceive the whole world. Those who
make the word of God their guide will not fall for this world-wide
hoax. They will discover the truth about Jesus' holy day, and will
observe it in obedience and loving gratitude even in the face of
mockery and death.
Then - when all have decided (which won't be long), the close of
probation comes and Jesus pronounces the most solemn sentence -
"He that is unjust let him be unjust still; and he which is
filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him
be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still."
Revelation 22:11.
Every case has been decided for life or death. Then - the seven
last, terrible plagues of Revelation 16 are poured out upon the
wicked, and a global conflict takes place under the sixth plague.
No matter which way you look at this thing, a great crisis is
stealing upon our world.
This global conflict will be like nothing you've ever dreamed of
before - your wildest imagination has never pictured it.
What will it be like? ...
to be continued in part 5 ...
**********************************************************
Richard H.
: >
: > -----Uh, gee, I'm only counting 656! No, and I don't really care,
: > anyway. There are more important things in life to focus on- the
: > Antichrist will come when he comes, and I doubt anyone's going to
: > accurately predict who that person is or will be. MW.
: >
: Amen to that!!!!!!! I think it's safe to say this topic is dead! If
: anyone else wants to try to figure out who the antichrist is, you're
: welcome to it. Personally, I'll be content to just sit around and wait
: until it actually happens and the prophecies start to come true about him.
: Fudd
Here is the skinny from the Bible based book, Sunday Law:
The first of six parts:
****************************************************************
Electronified with permission of Jan marcussen
The author and Editor...
NATIONAL SUNDAY LAW
by
A. Jan Marcussen
Published by Amazing Truth Publications
P.O. Box 68
Thompsonville, IL. 62890
Copyright 1983
*************************************************************
Chapter 1
The Two Horned Beast
It was August 2. Iraqi tanks exploded into Kuwait - crushing the
government, and altering the lives of terrified millions. Nations
trembled. Many are turning to democracy. Will a one-world
government make a heaven on earth? Will terrorism, like some giant
octopus engulf the world? Or will World War Three end it all?!
We're going to go on an incredible journey behind the scenes and
take a shocking glimpse.
Many eyes are on the U.S. It's still the greatest bulwark of
freedom in our world of chaos.
Veteran news commentator Walter Cronkite, after grimly surveying
some foreign crisis spoke of the United States. "It is," he said,
"the last best hope of mankind."
But something's happening in our country. Something strange.
Things are changing. Have you noticed the trends? Bullets ripped
through the President's head and neck causing him to slump in the
back of his official limousine. The nation was stunned. President
Kennedy was dead.
My stomach was in knots as I rode home that afternoon. People
wandered about the streets, or went home in silence. Some wept.
Since the early '60's assassinations, demonstrations, frauds, and
hoaxes have come upon us with rapid fire.
"On the night of March 13, 1964, thirty-eight people looking out
their windows in a quiet, respectable neighborhood Of New York
City, watched a murder that took a full half hour to commit, and
did nothing about it!
Thirty-eight people watched Catherine Genovese being stabbed
again and again in front of her home, and didn't care. They just
leaned out their windows as if watching the late show, waited till
it was over, and went back to bed!"'
George Vandeman, DESTINATION LIFE, (Mountain View: Pacific Press
Pub. Assoc., 1980), p. 74.
But attitudes are changing. Today people are angry at crime. One
thief who grabbed a lady's purse on a city street was chased down
by angry onlookers and beaten half to death! Attitudes are being
shaped by the horrors of our times. We're going to go behind the
scenes now and discover the documented story of the great crisis
that is stealing upon our land.
It all starts on a stark, rocky island. Into the horizon
stretches the vast expanse of the murky deep. One lone figure
rests on a barren ledge of sheer rock. His name, John the
Revelator. He's rapt in vision. What he sees is fantastic! Strange
beasts. Clashing armies. Nations rising.
It's no surprise that the greatest nation on earth should be
mentioned in prophecy. What John sees portends events shaping up
in the United States that most definitely will affect you!
Watch closely now as the scene unfolds.
"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he
had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." Revelation
13:11. A "beast" in prophecy represents a "kingdom." Daniel 7:23.
When a beast comes up out of the "sea," it is represented in
prophecy as rising amid "many peoples and multitudes." (a highly
populated -area). Revelation 17:15. To come out of the "earth" is
just the opposite. So here we have a nation that is springing up
out of a wilderness area. Instead of overthrowing other powers to
establish itself, this nation would rise in territory previously
unoccupied. It would be a country that's discovered, not
conquered. Differing from the often blood-soaked nations of
Europe, it would spring up quietly, peacefully, "like a lamb."
Can you guess what nation of the New World arose into power,
giving promise of strength and greatness, that would fit this
description?
Sure! The United States.
It sprang up like a plant from the ground. A prominent author of
the past century speaks of "the mystery of her coming forth from
vacancy," and adds, "like a silent seed we grew into an empire."
E.G. White, COSMIC CONFLICT, (Washington: Review and Herald Pub.
Assoc. 1982), p.388.
"'And he had two horns like a lamb.'
The lamb-like horns indicate youth, gentleness, and represent
civil and religious freedom. The Declaration of Independence and
the Constitution reflect these noble views. Because of these very
principles, our nation became great. The oppressed and persecuted
from all lands have looked to the U.S. with hope."
E.G. White, COSMIC CONFLICT,(Washington: Review and Herald Pub.
Assoc. 1982), p. 388.
But the beast with the lamb-like horns "spake as a dragon. And
he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and
causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the
first beast, whose deadly wound was healed; And he doeth great
wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth
in the sight of men." Revelation 13:12,13.
Incredible!
Keep your eyes open. As the drama unfolds, you will see miracles
of a most amazing nature!
"...saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should
make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword and did
live." Revelation 13:12-14.
Can you imagine the U.S. doing anything like that? I
How could it possibly happen?
Watch closely!
The lamb-like horns and then the dragon voice present a change
of personality. A real change! The speaking of this country as a
"dragon' denotes the use of force. This principle, as we shall
see, was used by the Leopard-like beast (the first beast) of
Revelation 13, which enforced religious observances by law! Such
action by the U.S. government would be directly contrary to its
grand principles of religious freedom. The Constitution provides
that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
"Speak as a dragon" - our nation? Do you hear it stirring? Have
you noticed attitudes becoming more intolerant and angry lately?
Angry at crime? Angry at political, religious and social
corruption?
In view of the horrifying trends of the time, it's
understandable why the nation is to "speak" that way. In one year,
Americans spent $4 billion on pornography. Divorce affects tens of
millions of homes, wrecking lives - and breaking hearts.
Mass murders, neglect of the aged, abuse of women and even of
babies, sicken the heart. Men possessed, are taking the lives of
men, women, and little children.
Millions of Americans, hooked on marijuana, "crack', heroin, and
other chemicals, peer at the world through differing degrees of
"goony eyes", and further appall society with their resultant
behavior and crimes.
A recent report to the Federal Communication Commission states
"Between the ages of 5 and 14 the average American child witnesses
the violent destruction of thirteen thousand human beings on
television."VIOLENCE and the MASS MEDIA, (New York: Harper and
Row, 1968), p. 51.
A U.S. Senate subcommittee revealed that in one decade violence
witnessed on T.V. skyrocketed and delinquency in real life grew
nearly 200%! VIOLENCE and the MASS MEDIA, (New York: Harper and
Row, 1968), p. 43.
Video movies too horrible to mention fill the living rooms and
minds of young and old.
Prostitutes, homosexuals, and drug addicts, share AIDS and ARC
(AIDS Related Complex) with the innocent. The poor. sufferers give
groans of despair as they perish in ever greater numbers. A group
of them, LIFE Magazine reported, lying on the floor in a circle,
and summoning some of their last remaining strength - laughed in
sequence. LIFE, Jan. 1988 p.46.
In the words of one commentator, "Surely America stumbles
headlong toward the final precipice. Tripped on the downward road
of immorality, it plunges with ever-increasing momentum toward the
point of no return."' Norman Gulley, IS THE MAJORITY MORAL?,
(Washington: Review and Herald, Pub. Assoc., 1981), p. 8.
Crime doubles every ten years.
What about the economy?
The country is broke. It has gotten so far in debt that many
wonder what will happen next. Many retired couples have either
lost their food stamps and medic cards, or have had to divorce and
live out of wedlock to keep them.
Political and religious corruption have caused even the
constitution to come under attack! People are angry. The nation is
angry. The shifting of values and anger of the times (in speedy
fulfillment of prophecy) are echoed in words blurted out by a
Jesuit priest, "I just don't understand the reverence which
everybody here seems to pay to the 'Americun Constitushun.' I want
to hear some American get up and shout, Give us justice. Give us
decency. And to . . . with the American Constitution."
Is it any wonder that our nation will "speak as a dragon?"
Little wonder that ministers across the land, in an effort to
abort national doom, move millions to political action. The
feeling is that something must be done. Leaders of the "electronic
church" launched a campaign to arouse 50 million Christians!
There's a tremendous drive on to unite forces for the common good.
Pat Robertson, the preacher who founded the 700 Club, and, who
himself aspired to the very top of the political ladder, said,
"Unless Christians desire a nation and a world reordered to the
humanistic/hedonistic model, it is absolutely vital that we take
control of the U.S. government away from the Trilateral Commission
and the Council on Foreign Relations." He speaks of turning to God
"to galvanize Christians to political action." Norman Gulley, IS
THE MAJORITY MORAL?, (Washington: Review and Herald, Pub. Assoc.,
1981), p. 8.
U.S. News & World Report declared, "A political holy war
without precedent is in full swing in this country." Norman
Gulley, IS THE MAJORITY MORAL?, (Washington: Review and Herald,
Pub. Assoc., 1981), p. 10.
The feeling is being spread that only if our nation comes back
to God can we improve our sorry state of affairs. Leaders are
saying that this can be accomplished if Christians unite, "Robert
Grant, leader of Christian Voice urged: "If Christians unite, we
can do anything. We can pass any law or any amendment. And that's
exactly what we intend to do, On nation-wide T.V. he declared: "We
can do anything, we can amend the Constitution. We can elect a
president. We can change or make any law in the land. And it
behooves us to do it. If we have to live under law, as well we
should, we should live under moral and Godly law." Norman Gulley,
IS THE MAJORITY MORAL?, (Washington: Review and Herald, Pub.
Assoc., 1981), p. 11
This is not the opinion of just one man.
In a letter written to the leader of the Religious Roundtable,
it was asked to him if it is time for someone to influence
legislation to make Sunday a day of worship in our country?
"In reply the executive director, H. Edward Rowe, wrote,
'Legislation and proclamations by Presidents to urge it - yes!"
The dynamics make us wonder little that nation-wide papers and
media messages plea to the masses that "It is the responsibility
of government to decree the establishment of the national
observance of Sunday." And that, 'There will be no relief from
mounting economic disaster until a national Sunday law is strictly
enforced."'
It's not surprising that in a hearing of, the South Carolina
legislature, demands by State Representative Anderson himself for
a Sunday law to improve the state of society brought uproarious
applause. Who can wonder that the United States President has
revealed his willingness to do what no other U.S. president has
been able to do - support legislation which would help collapse
the separation of church and state!
" and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of
the first beast before him." Revelation 13:11,12.
We haven't seen anything yet! Be prepared to learn some shocking
facts.
Here's the big question now - who's the first beast?
*************************************************************
CHAPTER 2
THE BEAST IDENTIFIED
"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up
out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his
horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."
Revelation 13:1,2.
Here is the beast that has the dreaded mark. This mark we
definitely don't want! The most awful warning of all time is
directed against it (see Rev. 14:9,10). But before we learn what
the mark is, we must discover who the beast is. And it won't be
hard. In fact, the Bible makes it so clear that I'll simply list
the characteristics of it and you'll be able to tell me who it is!
Are you ready?
1) A "beast" in prophecy represents a kingdom, a nation, a
power. The prophetic book of Daniel tells us -'Thus he said, the
fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth." Daniel 7:23.
2) This beast comes up out of the "sea." When a beast arises
from the "sea," it always represents a power rising in a highly
populated area; amid "peoples, multitudes, and nations, and
tongues." Revelation 17:15. It would have to conquer the existing
government.
3) This beast has seven heads and ten horns. A head represents
the headquarters of a government. The head of a county is called
the "county seat" you remember.
A "horn" represents a king, a ruler. "And ten horns out of this
kingdom are ten kings that shall arise." Daniel 7:24. The beast is
a power with a man at the head of it. You'll find that the Bible
explains itself!
4) The beast has "the name of blasphemy' (Rev. 13:1).
What is blasphemy?
Again the Bible gives its own definition. In John 10:32,33, it
tells how the Jews were going to stone Jesus. He asked them why
they were about to stone Him and they said, "For a good work we
stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a
man, makest thyself God."
Amazing! Blasphemy is for a man to claim to be God! Of .course
Jesus didn't blaspheme because He is God. But for someone less
than God - it would be. But there's more.
In Mark 2:5-11 it tells the story of how a paralyzed man wanted
to come into a house where Jesus was, but it was just too crowded.
He finally persuaded his friends to carry him up on the roof of
Peter's house and break it up so they could let the man down into
the room where the Saviour was teaching.
Down he comes.
Jesus looks into those pleading eyes and knows that the poor man
needs to have forgiveness and peace with God even more than
physical healing. Jesus says to him, "Son, thy sins be forgiven
thee."
Can you imagine the wonderful peace and joy that flooded his
soul? But the religious leaders didn't care a thing about the
man's soul. They were just trying to catch some words of Jesus
that they could use against Him to have Him put to death. The
Bible says that they thought, "Why does this man thus speak
blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?" The Saviour knew
their thoughts and said, "Why reason ye these things in your
hearts?" Then He asked them which is easier to say, "thy sins be
forgiven," or to say, "rise and walk?" Jesus healed the man before
their eyes, and, to the people's utter amazement, he got up and
walked out of the house.
Again, Jesus didn't commit blasphemy by forgiving the man's sins
because He is a member of the Godhead and had a perfect right to
do just that, To whomever He pleased He could say those sweet
words of forgiveness, and the very peace of heaven would flood the
soul. He could say, "Go and sin no more," and the guilty, the
depressed, the sad, the empty, would rise up with peace of mind.
They would begin a new and unselfish life of obedience to God - a
happy life of peace.
They could slap Him in the face and press a crown of thorns onto
that holy brow; they could beat Him until His back was like raw
meat, but they couldn't rob Him of His royal right to forgive the
chief of sinners. Wonderful Jesus!
But for anyone less than God to claim to forgive sins - it's
blasphemy.
Concerning the beast it says, "and upon his heads the name of
blasphemy." Revelation 13:1. The very leaders of this power would
both claim to be God on the earth, and claim to have power to
forgive men's sins!
5) "and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great
authority." Revelation 13:2.
It's clear that the beast gets its "seat" and "authority" from
the dragon. But who's the dragon?
Here it is. "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent,
which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."
Revelation 20:2. The dragon is Satan. But there's more,
"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great
dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon
his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of
heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood
before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour
her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man
child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her
child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." Revelation
12:3-5.
Some years ago, a man in Chicago claimed that he was the man
child! Could he have been?
Hardly,
Revelation 19:15,16 shows us that the "Man Child" is Christ.
So the "dragon" represents not only Satan, but also a kingdom
through whom Satan worked to try to kill baby Jesus as soon as He
was born, Now what kingdom was it whose king decreed the
destruction of the babies in Bethlehem?
Of course! It was King Herod. He was employed by, and a
representative of Rome. So here's another clue. The beast gets its
power, seat, and authority from Rome!
It's coming clear. The dragon represents Rome. Rome was the
empire used by Satan to try to destroy the Saviour of the world!
Now let's take a closer look.
The dragon (Rome) had "ten horns." A horn grows out of the head
of an animal. A horn, you remember, is a king. When the Roman
empire collapsed, ten divisions resulted. Barbarian tribes
hammered at the Roman empire for many years until it fell apart
and the ten divisions were ruled by ten kings! The were: the
Alemani (Germany), the Franks (France), Burgundians (Switzerland),
the Suevi (Portugal), the Anglo-Saxons (Britain), the Visigoths
(Spain), the Lombards (Italy), the Vandals, Ostrogoths, and
Heruli. The last three were destroyed by the Pope of Rome because
they refused to, become "Christian." The armies of Emperor
Justinian, in cooperation with the Pope, thrust the Ostrogoths out
of the city of Rome. They have become extinct. In 538 A.D. the
Pope took possession of the city after the Emperor decreed that he
should be the head of all the Christian churches. These ten
divisions of Rome are the ten horns on the "dragon." (For more
detail see Appendix 1).
Now look at this next amazing point.
6) "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose
names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from
the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8.
This is not only a political power but a religious power as
well. It demands worship and gets it.
7) It is a world-wide power. "All the world wondered after the
beast." Revelation 13:3.
Maybe you already know who the "beast" is.
Can you think of any world-wide political and religious power
with a man at the head of it who claims to be God on earth and to
be able to forgive sins? Who received its "seat" and authority
from Rome? Of a church government whose leader is "wondered after"
by the whole world?
Let me say something now that's very important. You see, the
reason why God speaks as strongly against worshiping the "beast"
as He does is because He loves the people. He loves all people.
Reader, He loves you. He knows that a person can't possibly be
happy who follows this power and receives its mark. He knows that
". . . they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and
his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Revelation 14:11. In following this power there's no rest. He
loves us so much that He warns us in the strongest language known
to man. Listen to this,
"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice; If
any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in
his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of
the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup
of his indignation." Revelation 14:9,10. Strong language. Language
of love is always strong when it's a question of life and death to
the one it loves.
I ask you, what more could He do? God sent His own Son to die a
hell death in our place, Not one need experience the awful fate of
those who follow the beast and receive its mark. Jesus made a way
of escape. He suffered the agony of Gethsemane, and the torture of
His mock trial where they beat Him until His back was like raw
meat. They bowed down in mockery and hit Him in the head with a
stick, driving the thorns into His brow and sending blood running
down His face. Watch Him stagger on His way to Calvary. The Son of
God falls on His face in the dirt. He endures the horror of our
sins while His blood runs drop by drop to the foot of the cross.
Look at His quivering lips as He cries "My God, My God, why hast
Thou forsaken Me?"
There He hangs - like a snake on a pole, writhing in agony,
drinking the last drops of the wrath of God against sin. "As Moses
lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," Jesus was lifted up -
for you. Do you see? He did it for you. He took what you and I
deserve. Do you see why our Heavenly Father is so anxious that we
not follow the beast or receive its mark? We need not receive that
awful penalty. Jesus paid it all. When they were pounding the
spikes through His tender flesh, and Jesus prayed "Father, forgive
them, for they know not what they do" - He was praying for you and
me then also. He was praying for you! Will you choose Him now as
your personal Saviour and follow Him all the way?
You'll be so happy that you did.
Trusting Him; obeying Him - even unto death; abiding in His love
through prayer and Bible study; total surrender and a loving,
happy relationship, only then will you be safe from worshiping the
beast and receiving his "mark' - only then. Soon you'll see why.
Another thing we must understand is that in identifying the
beast, God is not talking about sincere people who are involved
with it "ignorantly." Do you know what I mean? When He identifies
it He is talking about "the system;" the leaders, who know what
they are doing and deliberately disobey and change the word of
God. Do you see? Our God is a tender Father. He only holds
accountable those who understand what the Bible commands and
knowingly disobey, or, those who turn away from bearing His word
and are "willingly ignorant."
The beast exists now. Many honest Christians who are now
involved with it will soon learn the facts about it, They will
hear God's call to come out of it. And they will respond. Don't be
fooled by thinking that the "beast" is a computer in Europe
somewhere. That is only a smoke screen to get people off the track
that the Bible points out. God's word makes it so clear that even
an honest child can see it. The next point in identifying the
beast is amazing.
CONTINUED IN PART 2...
*****************************************************************
Andrew Wells
disciples all felt that Jesus was coming back in at least a few years, it
was not until Christ didn't come back for a bout a hundred years that
they realized that God doesn't work in time constraints. Besides the
"Roman Catholic Church" did not begin until around the year 500 still not
really "shortly". You should buck up on your Church history.
On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, Andrew Spring wrote:
> In article <4gqasu$b...@pipe9.nyc.pipeline.com>, gen...@nyc.pipeline.com
> (Darrell Gentry) wrote:
>
> >In article <Andrew.Spring-2...@dialup32.hasselt.eunet.be>,
> >Andrew Spring writes:
> >
> >>
> >>REV 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew
> >>unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and
> >>signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
> >>
> >>
> >>The key word here is "shortly". John clearly thought that the events of
> >>Revelation would take place "shortly". A period of 19 centuries is not
> >>"shortly" and there is no use pretending that it is.
> >
> >Question is, in Gods terms, what is "shortly"?
>
Lloyd Zusman
> Lucid346 (luci...@aol.com) 's tidbit:
> : The earth travels 66,600 MPH around the sun while in orbit - and WE are
> : ALL aboard !
Velocity was not measured in miles-per-hour back when the book of
Revelation was written. I know that there were no "miles" (at least
not of the size of today's miles), and I'm pretty sure that the idea
that a day consisted of 24 hours came later, as well. Therefore,
66,600 MPH is a number that would not have been calculated back in
John's day ... assuming that such a calculation would even have been
done in the first place ... no too likely, considering thhat few had
any idea that the earth orbited the sun.
And even today, more people use kilometers-per-hour than
miles-per-hour.
> : This could be measured as 66.6 times the speed of the equator - if you
> : dont like MPH. The equator spins at exactly 1000 MPH- by the way.
This 66.6 value is at least slightly more valid than the 66,600 MPH
number, because it's a ratio of velocites, and hence is invariant of
the units of distance and time. However, I am willing to make a bet
that this ratio is not exactly equal to 66.6, but rather, just
something sort of close to that value.
And also remember that in the days when the Book of Revelation was
written, there was no concept of decimal fractions in use. The
closest that people could come to that was something like "66 and 6
parts in 10" ... a pretty far cry from the value of six-hundred
sixty-six that is explicitly spelled out in the Bible.
--
Lloyd Zusman 01234567 <-- The world famous Indent-o-Meter.
l...@asfast.com ^ Indent or be indented.
Rick Atlee
> Now there's a nice explanation: God can't tell time. I have a hell of a
> problem with deadlines, myself.
>
> Explains a lot of things.
Why should God tell time like we do? We made up the concept of time by
the revolutions of the earth around the sun and the rotation of the
earth. There are many other suns and probably many other earths. Why
should he even use this one, supposing he uses one at all? How do you
divide infinity into increments?
Fudd
Dan Browne
>Velocity was not measured in miles-per-hour back when the book of
>Revelation was written. I know that there were no "miles" (at least
>not of the size of today's miles), and I'm pretty sure that the idea
>that a day consisted of 24 hours came later, as well.
C'mon man... the *Romans* invented miles and hence miles per hour.
It was the sumerians.... read *pre-bible* who invented the 24 hour clock.
I think the guy who thinks the number of the beast is the velocity of the
earth has his head up his ass (personally I think it is each of our
internet passwords or social security or visa cards or some such...)
but don't try to defeat his argument by saying his standard units are all
wrong ('cos they aint!).
D.