Jesus' prayer concerning us...
pablo
20
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in
me through their word,
21
so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in
you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you
sent me.
22
And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be
one, as we are one,
23
I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as
one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them
even as you loved me.
24
Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also
may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because
you loved me before the foundation of the world.
25
Righteous Father, the world also does not know you, but I know
you, and they know that you sent me.
26
I made known to them your name and I will make it known, that the
love with which you loved me may be in them and I in them."
peace.
pablo
psalmsmith
rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
Peace to you,
just wondering, how do you take the following translation
John 17:20-26 [MUR]
And it is not for them only that I pray, but also
for those who shall believe in me through their discourse;
that they all may be one; as thou, my Father, art in me,
and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; so that
the world may believe, that thou didst send me. And the
glory which thou gavest me, I have given them; that they
may be one, as we are one. I in them, and thou in me; that
they may be perfected into one; and that the world may
know that thou didst send me, and that thou hast loved
them as also thou hast loved me.
Father, I desire that those whom thou hast given
me, may also be with me where I am; that they may see that
glory of mine which thou hast given me, as thou lovedst me
before the foundation of the world. My righteous Father,
the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee, and
these have known, that thou didst send me. And I have made
known to them thy name; and I will make it known; so that
the love, with which thou lovedst me, may be in them, and
I in them.
John 17:20-26 [MUR] (differences hilighted)
20 And it is not for them only that I pray, but also for those who shall
believe in me through [their discourse;]
21 that they all may be one; as thou, my Father, art in me, and I in
thee; that they also may be one in us; so that the world may believe,
that thou didst send me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me, I have given them; that they may
be one, as we are one.
23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may [be perfected into] one; and
that the world may know that thou didst send me, and that thou hast
loved them as [also] thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I desire that those whom thou hast given me, may also be with
me where I am; that they may see [that glory of mine] which thou hast
given me, as thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 [My] righteous Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have
known thee, and these have known, that thou didst send me.
26 And I have [made known] to them thy name; and I [will make it known];
so that the love, with which thou lovedst me, may be in them, and I in
them.
pablo
i will get back to this - i have been thinking about it all day. just
a bit under the weather at the moment.
as i was looking at this chapter i did notice that there is something
important going on with the, "that" statements (or clauses really).
i am of the opinion that when we read john - we are reading some well
used and well produced sermons which gathered shape and form from
years of use. just like you and i have discussed the 7's in john's
gospel (and writings) i am often on the lookout for the pattern (or
patterns) in the pericopes.
if my current understanding and thinking on john is correct - that
these are well crafted and used sermons or teachings - then, i try to
hear the texts as if they were being preached, or taught, or really
almost given liturgically.
in this selection - when i listen to it - i hear a meter (one i have
not fully grasped yet) of similar statements being made which end in a
"that" clause.
like i said, i will get back to this - i see some things which i might
want to comment on or question in the translation.
i will do so soon.
peace.
pablo
oh, i will comment on one - that stands out to me - v22 [my] righteous
father.
i can see a justification for that - Joh 20:28
i don't know if the verse demands the "my" but it seems to be the
contextual intent or weight of the phrase non-the-less. IOW, with or
without the "my" that appears to be exactly what the text is saying.
i suppose for some, the intent might need spelling out - is that the
purpose of the "my"?
psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message news:<psalmsmith-4F69B...@news1-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...
psalmsmith
> psalmy...
>
> i will get back to this - i have been thinking about it all day. just
> a bit under the weather at the moment.
>
> as i was looking at this chapter i did notice that there is something
> important going on with the, "that" statements (or clauses really).
Right, I'm seeing that too. It breaks open every one-as-one idea, and
then ends with a single 'that Thou didst send me' to the Disciples after
passing an earlier paired 'that Thou didst send me' directed towards the
world.
> i am of the opinion that when we read john - we are reading some well
> used and well produced sermons which gathered shape and form from
> years of use. just like you and i have discussed the 7's in john's
> gospel (and writings) i am often on the lookout for the pattern (or
> patterns) in the pericopes.
Either that, or some kind of /intense/ inspiration. 8-)
> if my current understanding and thinking on john is correct - that
> these are well crafted and used sermons or teachings - then, i try to
> hear the texts as if they were being preached, or taught, or really
> almost given liturgically.
I think liturgy blends with life at a certain level.
> in this selection - when i listen to it - i hear a meter (one i have
> not fully grasped yet) of similar statements being made which end in a
> "that" clause.
>
> like i said, i will get back to this - i see some things which i might
> want to comment on or question in the translation.
>
> i will do so soon.
>
> peace.
> pablo
>
>
> oh, i will comment on one - that stands out to me - v22 [my] righteous
> father.
>
> i can see a justification for that - Joh 20:28
>
> i don't know if the verse demands the "my" but it seems to be the
> contextual intent or weight of the phrase non-the-less. IOW, with or
> without the "my" that appears to be exactly what the text is saying.
>
>
> i suppose for some, the intent might need spelling out - is that the
> purpose of the "my"?
This is simple to explain, actually. Murdock, for whom the translation
is named, has translated the Syriac Peshitto, an early Aramaic New
Testament.
Depending on your thoughts on the road from autograph to codex and
canon, this would make the Peshitto either an early translation of the
Greek scriptures, or a source 'one off' the one from which the Greek was
made.
I prefer to think most were autographed in Greek, but a few in Aramaic
or Hebrew. 'to the Hebrews' is a good example of one that has some
pretty strong evidence for a Hebrew/Aramaic autograph.
There are much better translations, including the one from the fellow
who provides this great explanation of New Testament source-texts:
http://www.joinedtohashem.org/sh/ts.htm
This describesthe authors thughts on a probable origin for Matthew, and
I think it's probably as accurate as any I have seen.
Anyway, long story short, John is an enigma. It has evidence of
nativity in both Greek and Hebrew, and some Jewish scholars have cited
it as 'the most Jewish' of the Gospels contrary to popular understanding.
In the Hebrew/Aramaic texts, there is a yud at the end, signalling 'my'
Father.
pablo
> In article <5203610b.04071...@posting.google.com>,
> rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
>
> > psalmy...
> >
> > i will get back to this - i have been thinking about it all day. just
> > a bit under the weather at the moment.
> >
> > as i was looking at this chapter i did notice that there is something
> > important going on with the, "that" statements (or clauses really).
>
> Right, I'm seeing that too. It breaks open every one-as-one idea, and
> then ends with a single 'that Thou didst send me' to the Disciples after
> passing an earlier paired 'that Thou didst send me' directed towards the
> world.
this wraps up or alludes to many of the themes in the book as well.
"the word" "Jesus coming into the world" "no one has seen the Father
but the Son has explained him." maybe some more - i haven't looked
closely yet.
>
> > i am of the opinion that when we read john - we are reading some well
> > used and well produced sermons which gathered shape and form from
> > years of use. just like you and i have discussed the 7's in john's
> > gospel (and writings) i am often on the lookout for the pattern (or
> > patterns) in the pericopes.
>
> Either that, or some kind of /intense/ inspiration. 8-)
yes, patterns abound within the texts - though not a proof of
inspiration in my thinking (otherwise joseph smith was inspired as
well and no doubt did have some neat specks at some time or another).
i'll interject another question concerning the translation here:
concerning logos - i tend to leave that as logos in most parts of john
in my personal translation. the choice of discourse for "word"
certainly captures a part of what i think is heard in the term - but
it seems a bit restrictive and possibly empties some of the ineffable
in the term (as it seems vested with much meaning in the gospel and in
this pericope).
in the old days, i would have used "message" for my rendering of the
term in this case. but, that left the "discourse" aspect out and in
some way seemed to divorce the term from the greater context of what
this "logos" is said to accomplish in the verses directly related to
it.
>
> > if my current understanding and thinking on john is correct - that
> > these are well crafted and used sermons or teachings - then, i try to
> > hear the texts as if they were being preached, or taught, or really
> > almost given liturgically.
>
> I think liturgy blends with life at a certain level.
the more i read this prayer - the more liturgical it sounds.
>
> > in this selection - when i listen to it - i hear a meter (one i have
> > not fully grasped yet) of similar statements being made which end in a
> > "that" clause.
> >
> > like i said, i will get back to this - i see some things which i might
> > want to comment on or question in the translation.
> >
> > i will do so soon.
> >
> > peace.
> > pablo
> >
> >
> > oh, i will comment on one - that stands out to me - v22 [my] righteous
> > father.
> >
> > i can see a justification for that - Joh 20:28
> >
> > i don't know if the verse demands the "my" but it seems to be the
> > contextual intent or weight of the phrase non-the-less. IOW, with or
> > without the "my" that appears to be exactly what the text is saying.
> >
> >
> > i suppose for some, the intent might need spelling out - is that the
> > purpose of the "my"?
>
> This is simple to explain, actually. Murdock, for whom the translation
> is named, has translated the Syriac Peshitto, an early Aramaic New
> Testament.
>
> Depending on your thoughts on the road from autograph to codex and
> canon, this would make the Peshitto either an early translation of the
> Greek scriptures, or a source 'one off' the one from which the Greek was
> made.
yeah, my last encounter with these thoughts left me somewhat in
question on the matter. i haven't got the thoughts on this at my
fingertips. i know i have seen quotes supporting the texts - though i
also seem to recall that the frags and the complete mss's don't have
full support for the earlier dates... i don't know where i fall in
this debate - mostly because i cannot remember enough of it to comment
further.
>
> I prefer to think most were autographed in Greek, but a few in Aramaic
> or Hebrew. 'to the Hebrews' is a good example of one that has some
> pretty strong evidence for a Hebrew/Aramaic autograph.
my memory is jogged a bit more -- seeming to recall more support for
matthew - but with enough ambiguity that some have suggested two
matthew autographs... i think??? i am in agreement with you to a
point - i agree that the majority were probably penned in greek - and
that some either had aramaic oral origins or even some parts were
aramaic in their original copy. by that, i probably mean parts or
stories within individual gospels. i am not certain about the
letters.
>
> There are much better translations, including the one from the fellow
> who provides this great explanation of New Testament source-texts:
>
> http://www.joinedtohashem.org/sh/ts.htm
>
> This describesthe authors thughts on a probable origin for Matthew, and
> I think it's probably as accurate as any I have seen.
>
> Anyway, long story short, John is an enigma. It has evidence of
> nativity in both Greek and Hebrew, and some Jewish scholars have cited
> it as 'the most Jewish' of the Gospels contrary to popular understanding.
maybe the most jewish and the most greek all at once. by that i mean
that the flow and the thought is heavily jewish. the focus upon
Christ as the passover lamb is one of the huge story arcs. greek, in
that the book appears to use greek verb and text to the max to capture
purely hebraic ideas.
john appears not to be in the flow of the hellenistic jews - but
rather to be among the main conservative jewish tradition of the
intertestamental jews. his contrasts between light and darkness etc.
do not match the essene communities usage of the terms nor reflect
their strict sectarian views.
so, i could buy the more jewish than most people think idea concerning
john. if anything, his allusions point to the OT more than any other.
mighty hard telling where john's writing narrative or quoting too.
well, that's off the top of my head - i'd gladly dig some more and
find my sources if you wish to dig in this direction. i am certain i
have a point here or there off.
peace.
pablo
psalmsmith
> psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
> news:<psalmsmith-2ACE4...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...
> > In article <5203610b.04071...@posting.google.com>,
> > rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
> >
> > > psalmy...
> > >
> > > i will get back to this - i have been thinking about it all day. just
> > > a bit under the weather at the moment.
> > >
> > > as i was looking at this chapter i did notice that there is something
> > > important going on with the, "that" statements (or clauses really).
> >
> > Right, I'm seeing that too. It breaks open every one-as-one idea, and
> > then ends with a single 'that Thou didst send me' to the Disciples after
> > passing an earlier paired 'that Thou didst send me' directed towards the
> > world.
>
> this wraps up or alludes to many of the themes in the book as well.
> "the word" "Jesus coming into the world" "no one has seen the Father
> but the Son has explained him." maybe some more - i haven't looked
> closely yet.
'the Son has explained...' He is the formed expression of God. His
word, alive and breathing before us. And so we also discern Him, in the
discourse of the Gospel. ... explaining things to those that need light.
That is what He did. The Son has explained, as His Word has taught and
inspired us, and caught us up to be with Christ.
> > > i am of the opinion that when we read john - we are reading some well
> > > used and well produced sermons which gathered shape and form from
> > > years of use. just like you and i have discussed the 7's in john's
> > > gospel (and writings) i am often on the lookout for the pattern (or
> > > patterns) in the pericopes.
> >
> > Either that, or some kind of /intense/ inspiration. 8-)
>
> yes, patterns abound within the texts - though not a proof of
> inspiration in my thinking (otherwise joseph smith was inspired as
> well and no doubt did have some neat specks at some time or another).
I agree that the simple existence of patterns (no matter how complex) do
not demand inspiration, any more than 4/4 time makes all music as though
it were God-breathed.
But when these patterns fill out and move, like waves of fire over the
text, speak in rhythm and form the living face of Christ in a kind of
radiant refining outwell of the power of God...
Well maybe I figured on paying attention, anway.
The...color...is the part that moves for us.
I mean from day to day, but a lot of course always has the same color.
When these move, thier movement is speaking to us. It is how I see the
Spirit in dancing fire over the living Word; and all of it in radiation
outward from the One.
as if any of that makes sense.
> i'll interject another question concerning the translation here:
> concerning logos - i tend to leave that as logos in most parts of john
> in my personal translation. the choice of discourse for "word"
> certainly captures a part of what i think is heard in the term - but
> it seems a bit restrictive and possibly empties some of the ineffable
> in the term (as it seems vested with much meaning in the gospel and in
> this pericope).
/dabar/ in Hebrew means 'to speak, declare, converse, command, promise,
warn, threaten, sing' /dabariy/ would mean "his speech, his
conversation, his promise." and in present participle noun 'speech,
word, speaking, thing.'
the Word. /dabariy Elohim/ 'the word of God.' -iy showing posession of
'the word' by God.
This, of course was translated from Aramaic, but it is very near the
same case. the /logos/ concept in Hebrew, had a lot more shades
underneath a single nail.
> in the old days, i would have used "message" for my rendering of the
> term in this case. but, that left the "discourse" aspect out and in
> some way seemed to divorce the term from the greater context of what
> this "logos" is said to accomplish in the verses directly related to
> it.
It is really hard to settle any rendering, since any translation will
narrow and stretch the original meaning, to the depth of fashions in the
lingua franca.
However, since language is ordained by God, I think likely a dead
language could far, far more closely map the autograph's intent. It is
minus an evolving and often corrupting influence in the meaning of words.
That is why, I think, the KJV garners such fervored support. It is in
effect a "false dead language" version whose colors won't shift around
with the linguistic hemlines this summer.
> > > if my current understanding and thinking on john is correct - that
> > > these are well crafted and used sermons or teachings - then, i try to
> > > hear the texts as if they were being preached, or taught, or really
> > > almost given liturgically.
> >
> > I think liturgy blends with life at a certain level.
>
> the more i read this prayer - the more liturgical it sounds.
I kinda see it as a "crystalline moment" fully equiped with facets.
Where everything forms together in one point, unified and frozen.
Imagine time a semi liquified molten stream of minerals where moments
like these are enormous crystals forming in time;
And liturgy has always reminded me as a treatment of these facets
towards the drawing of a conclusion.
A lot of support of Matthew, some minimum support for Mark. Through the
science of textural criticism, the picture of John remains obscure.
Luke, of course, was certainly not.
To the epistles, well, Paul being a Pharisee and writing 'to the
Hebrews' as it was, would I am certain at least speak in the tongue of
his birth to the brothers of his birth.
Bear in mind that at this point it is pure speculation.
But for Paul to write in Greek to the Hebrews would have been, well,
kind of an insult, wouldn't it?
> > There are much better translations, including the one from the fellow
> > who provides this great explanation of New Testament source-texts:
> >
> > http://www.joinedtohashem.org/sh/ts.htm
> >
> > This describesthe authors thughts on a probable origin for Matthew, and
> > I think it's probably as accurate as any I have seen.
> >
> > Anyway, long story short, John is an enigma. It has evidence of
> > nativity in both Greek and Hebrew, and some Jewish scholars have cited
> > it as 'the most Jewish' of the Gospels contrary to popular understanding.
>
> maybe the most jewish and the most greek all at once. by that i mean
> that the flow and the thought is heavily jewish. the focus upon
> Christ as the passover lamb is one of the huge story arcs. greek, in
> that the book appears to use greek verb and text to the max to capture
> purely hebraic ideas.
Like mankind, before babel tower, or the way the Apostles could speak
one language and be heard in the native tongue of all. This kind of
pervading 'union' effect as the Spirit moves in the space of thought,
where language is formed.
There is something... before language, upon which the structure of the
tongue is based.
It is, I think, the 'cleanliness' or purity of John which serves to
reveal this.
> john appears not to be in the flow of the hellenistic jews - but
> rather to be among the main conservative jewish tradition of the
> intertestamental jews. his contrasts between light and darkness etc.
> do not match the essene communities usage of the terms nor reflect
> their strict sectarian views.
>
> so, i could buy the more jewish than most people think idea concerning
> john. if anything, his allusions point to the OT more than any other.
>
> mighty hard telling where john's writing narrative or quoting too.
Yeah, evocation of the elder scriptures kinda blends in.
> well, that's off the top of my head - i'd gladly dig some more and
> find my sources if you wish to dig in this direction. i am certain i
> have a point here or there off.
>
> peace.
> pablo
I am satisfied, but I would like to get a copy of that HRV from the
place I linked that picture from. a bit rich for me at the moment, but
the translation was very hard work, and I am certain worth it.
I imagine it as a powerful tool, if only as an exploration of Jewish
thought, from which intellectual platform arose Yeshua, haMoshiach and
His witnesses.
pablo
> In article <5203610b.04071...@posting.google.com>,
> rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
>
> > psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
> > news:<psalmsmith-2ACE4...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...
> > > In article <5203610b.04071...@posting.google.com>,
> > > rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
> > >
> > > > psalmy...
> > > >
> > > > i will get back to this - i have been thinking about it all day. just
> > > > a bit under the weather at the moment.
> > > >
> > > > as i was looking at this chapter i did notice that there is something
> > > > important going on with the, "that" statements (or clauses really).
> > >
> > > Right, I'm seeing that too. It breaks open every one-as-one idea, and
> > > then ends with a single 'that Thou didst send me' to the Disciples after
> > > passing an earlier paired 'that Thou didst send me' directed towards the
> > > world.
> >
> > this wraps up or alludes to many of the themes in the book as well.
> > "the word" "Jesus coming into the world" "no one has seen the Father
> > but the Son has explained him." maybe some more - i haven't looked
> > closely yet.
>
> 'the Son has explained...' He is the formed expression of God. His
> word, alive and breathing before us. And so we also discern Him, in the
> discourse of the Gospel. ... explaining things to those that need light.
i see, this raises the question - where is the color? in the light or
in the object? or is it only in a combo of both? odd question here
- but one i am seriously asking: if light fell into the woods and no
one was there to see it would it make colors?
>
> That is what He did. The Son has explained, as His Word has taught and
> inspired us, and caught us up to be with Christ.
i see. this, btw is lovely, but it also explains what you see in
dabar below.
i see you stretching for words (not stretching credibility but for the
fuller expression) when you fracture the Word's actions into, "taught,
inspired, and caught us up to be with Christ." i like that. because
sometimes we get hung up on the "taught" aspect - and see the matter
too narrowly as if Jesus is a teacher only. by implication, we see
life and life experiences only as lessons from the primer. that's a
part not to be left out possibly - but there is much more to the
matter.
i suppose some see the "caught up" aspect and do much the same -
seeing Jesus as "the experience maker/giver" and by implication seeing
life as one successive search for experiences of a numinous or
rapturous nature.
"the Son has explained" is multicolored, multifaceted, manifold - john
captures this best IMO - because his gospel is just that - multi and
mani = on so many levels.
it's what has always been said about john - it has a home for the
simplest child and the most searching scholar.
>
> > > > i am of the opinion that when we read john - we are reading some well
> > > > used and well produced sermons which gathered shape and form from
> > > > years of use. just like you and i have discussed the 7's in john's
> > > > gospel (and writings) i am often on the lookout for the pattern (or
> > > > patterns) in the pericopes.
> > >
> > > Either that, or some kind of /intense/ inspiration. 8-)
> >
> > yes, patterns abound within the texts - though not a proof of
> > inspiration in my thinking (otherwise joseph smith was inspired as
> > well and no doubt did have some neat specks at some time or another).
>
> I agree that the simple existence of patterns (no matter how complex) do
> not demand inspiration, any more than 4/4 time makes all music as though
> it were God-breathed.
or the complex works of lewis carroll or james joyce either.
>
> But when these patterns fill out and move, like waves of fire over the
> text, speak in rhythm and form the living face of Christ in a kind of
> radiant refining outwell of the power of God...
>
> Well maybe I figured on paying attention, anway.
that was one well written statement. i love the understatement of,
"well maybe I figured on paying attention, anyway." it's more than
saying, "i saw the face of mary mother of God in an oil slick" or "i
see saint john in a potato chip."
do i detect a bit of pyro in you? :-)
incindiary maybe a better term (one i happen to love btw).
yes, we speak of water as living and fire also takes the personified
metaphors quite well. but, i get you - it's kinda like having the sun
presented in a viewable fashion (one that won't destroy - possibly -
one's retina) but translated into more than the color of the spectrum,
more than the leaping flames or solar storms - but instead this "word"
this communication has a quality about it - something which begins to
allude and "explain" (per our conversation above) the source.
no one has seen the Father at anytime. no one has ascended to
heaven... the world does not know God...
but the Son has explained.... except the Son... but, Jesus *knows*
the Father and we know the Father sent the Son...
time and again i will read on these forums an idea that suggests that
since christians are "one" with God - the statements concerning
Christ's oneness with the Father cannot mean something special or
divine concerning Christ's nature. but, that is to miss the import of
john altogether - no one is one with God without knowing the One whom
the Father has sent into the world.
if our understanding of life is filtered through a narrow
understanding (aka the points about taught, experience, etc. made
above) we might stop at these texts merely for a discussion on the
proofs or disproofs of the divinity of Christ instead of hearing the
gospel. in doing so, we might miss out on the full orbed experience
of sharing, partaking, in the wonder of being one.
now, am i making any sense?
>
> The...color...is the part that moves for us.
>
> I mean from day to day, but a lot of course always has the same color.
> When these move, thier movement is speaking to us. It is how I see the
> Spirit in dancing fire over the living Word; and all of it in radiation
> outward from the One.
i was never fully fond of augustine's work on the Trinity - the Father
and Son with the Holy Spirit being the Love that moved between them.
i am far too eastern in my thinking for that.
but, that doesn't mean that i dislike the metaphor or the idea of flow
which augustine was aiming towards in his discussions. he was getting
at the movement of Love in all that is.
i what you just wrote i almost see a marriage of geraard manly
hopkins, "the world is charged with the granduer of God" and
augstine's "the love that exists within the Trinity is the center of
the universe." <-- that's my line but it reflects augustine's POV.
you are stretching me here - because when i think of the flows of
communication i want to make all neat n tidy... but, our God as an
all consuming fire or our God as revealed in the bush that burns but
is not consumed imagery of a world alive with the flame of our Maker
--- well, i do love fires and have spent many a night in the
wilderness or before the fireplace doing nothing more than enjoying a
good fire --- and while i can still map out, "fuel, flame, smoke,
etc." such descriptions do not fully capture even a simple campfire.
anyway, you got me thinking.... thanks.
>
> as if any of that makes sense.
or as if my reply makes sense. you mentioned the colors being the
same quite often - and then wrote - but when they move... i pictured
the sea at night - the water having only hues of one color and in such
a case it's the motion that captures me.
>
> > i'll interject another question concerning the translation here:
> > concerning logos - i tend to leave that as logos in most parts of john
> > in my personal translation. the choice of discourse for "word"
> > certainly captures a part of what i think is heard in the term - but
> > it seems a bit restrictive and possibly empties some of the ineffable
> > in the term (as it seems vested with much meaning in the gospel and in
> > this pericope).
>
> /dabar/ in Hebrew means 'to speak, declare, converse, command, promise,
> warn, threaten, sing' /dabariy/ would mean "his speech, his
> conversation, his promise." and in present participle noun 'speech,
> word, speaking, thing.'
>
> the Word. /dabariy Elohim/ 'the word of God.' -iy showing posession of
> 'the word' by God.
>
> This, of course was translated from Aramaic, but it is very near the
> same case. the /logos/ concept in Hebrew, had a lot more shades
> underneath a single nail.
i knew you were going to bring up dabar - i tend to try and hear that
word while considering logos. i actually am amazed more that hebraic
ideas shape the word logos more than the other way around.
>
> > in the old days, i would have used "message" for my rendering of the
> > term in this case. but, that left the "discourse" aspect out and in
> > some way seemed to divorce the term from the greater context of what
> > this "logos" is said to accomplish in the verses directly related to
> > it.
>
> It is really hard to settle any rendering, since any translation will
> narrow and stretch the original meaning, to the depth of fashions in the
> lingua franca.
>
> However, since language is ordained by God, I think likely a dead
> language could far, far more closely map the autograph's intent. It is
> minus an evolving and often corrupting influence in the meaning of words.
yes, language is a living evolving thing - i haven't really thought
about this before (the power of a semi-dead language) - thanks that is
really neat.
>
> That is why, I think, the KJV garners such fervored support. It is in
> effect a "false dead language" version whose colors won't shift around
> with the linguistic hemlines this summer.
very clever - and very true. i have been slack in my translation work
(sometimes i wish i would just remain in school at least to take
courses in languages) but, in every case so far - my work on john (the
book i have been translating forever now) has come closer to kjv than
most any other. i used to find this odd - until i took the time to
understand some more about the english used by the kjv (not sure what
it's called - old english is before that period and i only hear it
called, "king james english,").
what i have found is that many of our contemporary discussions are
simply people reinventing the wheel - as these debates were held long
ago. often with the kjv translators coming out in a rather high
scholarly fashion.
still, my wife is so removed from the culture i grew up in (reading
kjv) that the learning curve is quite steep - to the point where she
cannot get into it. i find this true of many of the younger adults i
work among too.
the funny thing is - often while teaching - i will quote or reach for
the poetry of the kjv to make a text more clear ... and without fail
it works. so, i find this odd disconnect. a generation who will not
read kjv - but when they hear it spoken connect with it effortlessly.
i would add, when they hear it spoken as opposed to merely being read
minus breath, expression, drama...
>
>
>
> > > > if my current understanding and thinking on john is correct - that
> > > > these are well crafted and used sermons or teachings - then, i try to
> > > > hear the texts as if they were being preached, or taught, or really
> > > > almost given liturgically.
> > >
> > > I think liturgy blends with life at a certain level.
> >
> > the more i read this prayer - the more liturgical it sounds.
>
> I kinda see it as a "crystalline moment" fully equiped with facets.
> Where everything forms together in one point, unified and frozen.
> Imagine time a semi liquified molten stream of minerals where moments
> like these are enormous crystals forming in time;
>
> And liturgy has always reminded me as a treatment of these facets
> towards the drawing of a conclusion.
like a piece of artwork.
btw, "crystilline moment," will always be my designation for this
prayer of Christ. thanks for the expression - i do intend to give you
credit - but i suppose over time it will blend into my speech...
this is, in many ways, the book of john. but, i suspect there are
several of these "moments" in the book of john - little windows into
the whole of the book.
i know, this is interesting.
>
> But for Paul to write in Greek to the Hebrews would have been, well,
> kind of an insult, wouldn't it?
my head has been in those texts where paul spoke to the gentiles so
much lately that i haven't even looked over that way in quite a while.
i used to suggest that one should always listen for the gentile
inclusion in paul as a key to any of his writings. it's always a
theme of most every section of his writing (foreground or background).
i thought i was being clever and that those scholars who spent so much
time suggesting that paul's was an eschatalogical focus were
misguided.
but, as of late, i have begun to see that the inclusion of the
gentiles (for now God calls everyone everywhere to repent) was a part
of the grand eschatalogical moment (or movement) in paul. the whole
eschaton focuses upon Christ and the cross.
short speak - it's the kingdom stupid!
the restoration of the conclusion of the narrative begun in genesis is
what's happening.
paul has a focus on the kingdom as it has come with Christ and as it
is coming with Christ.
but, i find it interesting that john presents all of this in the
concept of glorification.
this is where the eastern orthodox hear much more than the west on
some counts.
my time has left me - i gotta run.
let's continue this - snip or trim some maybe - but i'd love to hear
more.
thanks.
peace.
pablo
John McComb
> i see, this raises the question - where is the color? in the light or
> in the object? or is it only in a combo of both? odd question here
> - but one i am seriously asking: if light fell into the woods and no
> one was there to see it would it make colors?
Depends on what you're talking about. If you're asking
about that 'hue' we generally think of when we think of
colors then it is in your brain. If you're talking about
the actual physical reflection that causes us to perceive
that hue, then it is in the light. The role the wood plays
is one of absorption and reflection. The color that the
wood 'contains' is actually that which it absorbs. That
color is the complement of what you see when you look at
the wood.
Yours in Christ
John
Mordecai!
pablo wrote:
One of the reasons that people who discard the Trinity gain so much more knowledge and understanding is for this very reason.
Also the reason I am teaching Christians how to communicate with Jews.
If the truth is the truth - then words ought not be a road block.
As you know the ideas - try considering "how on earth can JC be this LOGOS or the hebrew "debar?" "
And consider instead if John was commenting that this was the name of JC ... and you only have ONE verse in John which makes
mention of it - John 1:14.
Then there are the other mentions of this comment of "the word" - some not speaking about JC ... and Revelation which confirms
it was his name rather than his being.
Sigh ... the very idea that JC is somehow "spoken" leaves me with goose bumps up and down my spine.
I do not think Christians have any idea of what their conceptual ideas imply to a jew.
Sorry - I do get on my soap box at times. It is frustrating ... trying to teach Christians that they need to change their
language to speak to Jews as it does not make sense to the Jews ... it really does not.
psalmsmith
John McComb <Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> wrote:
I would surely lean towards 'hue' in the example, as it is also our own
fluid perception which forms the mirror of our selves on the surface of
the text. Beside that, at least to some extent the color also. Because
I have known the Spirit to move in me, and highlight certain passages
according to what I would later come to need.
In other words, while the basic meaning of the passage never shifts, it
were carved in stone; but yet at the same time from day to day the same
passage can say something different to my heart. It is the only
paradoxical duality of it's kind in all of thought. A text whose
meaning is as fixed at it can be; becomes fluid towards the rendering of
our enlightenment by it, as we are led in it of the Holy Spirit of God.
It is one of the ways in which the Spirit confirms His Word. A fixed
image, that lives and moves. or, the fire of God carved in stone.
John McComb
> I would surely lean towards 'hue' in the example, as it is also our own
> fluid perception which forms the mirror of our selves on the surface of
> the text. Beside that, at least to some extent the color also. Because
> I have known the Spirit to move in me, and highlight certain passages
> according to what I would later come to need.
I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. That is, I wasn't
really following the thread. Rather, I simply noticed
Pablo's question and decided to be pedantic for fun.
I guess I got clipped by the tail end of a metaphor. I'll
add something that's probably irrelevant but, hey, never
could dance.
The mathematics involved in quantum physics has a real
beauty about it, if you have the sort of eye that can
behold it. Knowledge of photons, wavelengths, energy
levels and all that other neat stuff can add a dimension
to our consideration of color that is truly wondrous.
However there's absolutely no comparison to the simple
experience of the perception of color through our natural
vision. Give a blind man the choice of an instant and
thorough education in all things scientific and a
chance to have sight and what do you think he's going
to choose?
Of course you prefer the 'hue'. It's the way that you
recognize color. It's familiar and it's superior.
Your regard for scripture works the same way. There
are underlying mechanics that are important and, when
considered, can greatly enhance your understanding. But
really it's all about perception, and a big part of that
perception is the counsel of the Holy Spirit. If you
can't see the colors then no rendering of the mechanics
is ever going to gain you anything.
> In other words, while the basic meaning of the passage never shifts, it
> were carved in stone; but yet at the same time from day to day the same
> passage can say something different to my heart. It is the only
> paradoxical duality of it's kind in all of thought. A text whose
> meaning is as fixed at it can be; becomes fluid towards the rendering of
> our enlightenment by it, as we are led in it of the Holy Spirit of God.
Sometimes it's the recognition of those mundane
mechanics that opens up those new windows of perception.
For instance, Jesus' words, "Render therefore unto Caesar
the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things
that are God’s" takes on a whole new spectrum of meaning
if you first understand what it means for a jewish leader
to be walking around with pagan coin in his purse.
yours in Christ
John
pablo
i know you picked up on the topic or idea behind this question in a
later post - but i still thought this line was worth pursuing.
light is a "funny" thing - so is water - and i suppose it depends upon
which scientist you end up chatting with as to which behaves more
oddly or how "funny" the particular substance is.
light is both matter and motion (and a very qualified neither when it
comes to energy). it is particle (matter) and wave (motion). but,
even should there not exist any lumnious bodies (such as the sun or
stars) in our universe there would be light - short version because
everything is in motion or the spark of energy is in everything that
we know of so far as we can see or extrapolate. but, even our
definition of energy tends to be dependent upon the existence of
matter and motion... a condundrum of sorts possibly?
the colors exist within the light - and therefore color exists. if,
light exists in every tiny speck of existing matter (and so far as we
know it does) then color exists as well. color itself is the product
of motion or variance of motion or rate.
[note: i am fully aware that i am bypassing the whole discussion of
refraction and the properties of light bending etc.]
when it comes to our ability to see color - it exists whether we
perceive it or not IMO. but, the brute fact is that we do exist in
such a way and in such a place where we can and do perceive color
through the process of illumination.
illumination interacts with what is and produces distinction - and we
see variation and produce defintion.
so, in the end of all this reflection :-) - i suppose it is all best
summed up in the wisest of statements:
where was the cat when the lights went out?
in the dark. :-)
peace.
pablo <--- not being as serious as he appears....
psalmsmith
> psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
> news:<psalmsmith-16FBD...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...
> >
> yes, we speak of water as living and fire also takes the
> personified metaphors quite well. but, i get you - it's kinda
> like having the sun presented in a viewable fashion (one that
> won't destroy - possibly - one's retina) but translated into more
> than the color of the spectrum, more than the leaping flames or
> solar storms - but instead this "word" this communication has a
> quality about it - something which begins to allude and "explain"
> (per our conversation above) the source.
It's funny you should mention this, when I think 'rapture' I tend to see
the planet earth bathed in an ocean of 7-color fire, looking like an
atmosphere, with waves and storms and clouds...and this huge
monsoon/hurricane thing spinning outwards it's eye over Jerusalem, and
the seven colors injecting outwards into the storm, from the cities of
the seven churches in Revelation.
This fire, which consumes more than the fires of man ever could; does
not consume the people it touches, it only consumes all of the darkness
within them.
The glorification. When Christians are given post-resurrection
glorified bodies, (and glorified souls also) right there where they
stand. The day when the arm of the Lord is revealed to all of man at
once, and told to go forward in the power of Christ and redeem the
people in darkness, or watch them dissolve away in the light.
It is particular that you should mention 'sun' here, because when I see
the coming Kingdom with Christ on the throne, the Earth looks like a
'new sun' the same seven-color corona mentioned above, looking like the
surface of the sun, but visible from other solar systems.
The same all-darkness-consuming fire, that the people of God will live
in and move in.
> no one has seen the Father at anytime. no one has ascended to
> heaven... the world does not know God...
>
> but the Son has explained.... except the Son... but, Jesus
> *knows* the Father and we know the Father sent the Son...
Through knowing Him and being in His Spirit, so can we grasp at knowing
the Father; having been given a bridge across which to walk.
> time and again i will read on these forums an idea that suggests
> that since christians are "one" with God - the statements
> concerning Christ's oneness with the Father cannot mean something
> special or divine concerning Christ's nature. but, that is to
> miss the import of john altogether - no one is one with God
> without knowing the One whom the Father has sent into the world.
Totally beyond question. Our own unity with the devine, is only an
outward effect of the unity of Christ with God; which being perfected
shows us the way that we can choose, if we choose to go with Him.
Because His unity is beyond question, and because we can know Him, then
we can so know union with God. The end of this unity for us, is the
same as Christ, to move willingly in the perfect expression of God.
This is the God-ward journey of our lives, and the mountain that will be
removed at the rapture and the return.
> if our understanding of life is filtered through a narrow
> understanding (aka the points about taught, experience, etc. made
> above) we might stop at these texts merely for a discussion on
> the proofs or disproofs of the divinity of Christ instead of
> hearing the gospel. in doing so, we might miss out on the full
> orbed experience of sharing, partaking, in the wonder of being
> one.
>
>
> now, am i making any sense?
Yes, you can either inspect and discuss 'the crystalline nature' of a
structured thought, or you can experience and talk about and bask in the
light that is passing outward from it.
The full experience is comprehensive, requiring both to provide round
understanding.
> > The...color...is the part that moves for us.
> >
> > I mean from day to day, but a lot of course always has the same
> > color. When these move, thier movement is speaking to us. It
> > is how I see the Spirit in dancing fire over the living Word;
> > and all of it in radiation outward from the One.
>
>
> i was never fully fond of augustine's work on the Trinity - the
> Father and Son with the Holy Spirit being the Love that moved
> between them. i am far too eastern in my thinking for that.
I have some issues with the level of division, and with the language of
'persons' but nothing that would prevent me from laughing at one of
Augustines jokes in my dining room.
> but, that doesn't mean that i dislike the metaphor or the idea of
> flow which augustine was aiming towards in his discussions. he
> was getting at the movement of Love in all that is.
Hebrews 1:1-3 [MUR]
[1] In many ways, and many forms, God anciently
conversed with our fathers, by the prophets: [2] But in
these latter days, he hath conversed with us, by his Son;
whom he hath constituted heir of all things, and by whom
he made the worlds; [3] who is the splendor of his glory,
and the image of himself, and upholdeth all by the energy
of his word; and by himself he made a purgation of sins,
and sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
I also like how the KJV says 'express image' in vs 3:
[KJV][3b] ... and the express image of his person
"and the image of Himself" I still think of the ideas as the 'espressed
image of His person' having seen it there, but the image of Himself is
more clear and direct.
> i what you just wrote i almost see a marriage of geraard manly
> hopkins, "the world is charged with the granduer of God" and
> augstine's "the love that exists within the Trinity is the center
> of the universe." <-- that's my line but it reflects augustine's
> POV.
I like that, because the thing I see and am trying to describe as 'fire'
is really more like "charged air"
Like ionized particles streaming from an object, glowing, but not
burning. Some things 'give off' more and some things less, and some
things none. ok, plasma. like charged plasma, reacting to the varied
outflow of charged ions from different objects in the kind of 'plasma
fires' you see in one of those plasma-globes which send lightning bolts
out to your fingertips.
We can also 'charge ourselves' by reading the scripture, prayer, and
meditating in God. Some people burn more brightly and others less, and
some dont at all; those last ones are those who have not been born
again, and so are completely dark.
> you are stretching me here - because when i think of the flows of
> communication i want to make all neat n tidy... but, our God as
> an all consuming fire or our God as revealed in the bush that
> burns but is not consumed imagery of a world alive with the flame
> of our Maker --- well, i do love fires and have spent many a
> night in the wilderness or before the fireplace doing nothing
> more than enjoying a good fire --- and while i can still map out,
> "fuel, flame, smoke, etc." such descriptions do not fully
> capture even a simple campfire.
I think one of the sign-posts of truth is it's elegant construction.
The Father, being the source of life existance and all things; has
expressed Himself to us, which expression is His Word, and being
manifested Hs Son. Their Spirit is the same, One God, and He stands
living before us today.
Yhvh speaks, and has spoken His Son; who by living and by pouring His
own blood out over all of man, has poured His Spirit over all the
heavens, giving us an eternal witness (the Spirit) being one in /them/
that are the same God; and even so by our deciding - the same Spirit
within us. So can we see God and His Son living today, with this
eternal witness.
Or, the Father expresses the Son, which bear in common one Spirit.
And only because He came by blood: when His blood poured into the
earth, His Spirit also poured into the sky.
and THEN because we can be in the Son, we can so also be in the Father,
as He breathes His Spirit into us according to our desire to express His
will, which we can see written in the Spirit according to our desire to
look, and see.
> anyway, you got me thinking.... thanks.
>
>
>
> >
> > as if any of that makes sense.
>
>
> or as if my reply makes sense. you mentioned the colors being
> the same quite often - and then wrote - but when they move... i
> pictured the sea at night - the water having only hues of one
> color and in such a case it's the motion that captures me.
Like a natural rainbow has seven colors, I see waves in what looks like
a cross between a planetary water-ocean and a solar corona, with waves,
splashes, storms, flares, and so on. Maybe "an atmosphere of plasma
over a planetary ocean of water" and then existance as we know it being
built into the division between the water and the plasma. "The
Firmament"
and the movement of the color (reflecting) water and the color (glowing)
plasma, as God communicates with man across the fixture of creation.
The motion would be the same as like you say the sea at night; with the
moon giving the broad texture of the waves a million barely perceptable
shades; with glowing atmospheric patterns (and storms) living above the
action of the waves, moving in concert, creating a kind of 'weather'
that responds both to the actions of man and to the will of God.
> > > i'll interject another question concerning the translation
> > > here: concerning logos - i tend to leave that as logos in
> > > most parts of john in my personal translation. the choice of
> > > discourse for "word" certainly captures a part of what i
> > > think is heard in the term - but it seems a bit restrictive
> > > and possibly empties some of the ineffable in the term (as it
> > > seems vested with much meaning in the gospel and in this
> > > pericope).
> >
> > /dabar/ in Hebrew means 'to speak, declare, converse, command,
> > /promise,
> > warn, threaten, sing' /dabariy/ would mean "his speech, his
> > conversation, his promise." and in present participle noun
> > 'speech, word, speaking, thing.'
> >
> > the Word. /dabariy Elohim/ 'the word of God.' -iy showing
> > posession of 'the word' by God.
> >
> > This, of course was translated from Aramaic, but it is very
> > near the same case. the /logos/ concept in Hebrew, had a lot
> > more shades underneath a single nail.
>
> i knew you were going to bring up dabar - i tend to try and hear
> that word while considering logos. i actually am amazed more
> that hebraic ideas shape the word logos more than the other way
> around.
I think if it weren't for the destructive legalism of so many
'damning-shabbatizers' I think would have been able to much more
effectively share a love of God's feasts with others in this place.
I am passionate about sharing with the church how beautiful it is to
share the seven feasts with God, and how amazingly rich they are with
fully "Christian" theology; theology they utterly describe Messiah way
back in Leviticus 23.
The annual feasts are a map of "God's Time" for the creation celebrating
various advents and events and endings from the creation to the end.
In effect, it is the "Seven times Messiah will speak to the Creation
from Beginning to End" and four have passed and three are yet to come.
They are divided into two seasons; four' in (the spring feasts)
celebrate the openings: 'unleavened bread, 'passover, 'firstfruits, and
'weeks - the filling - pentecost, when the Word of God was given to
Israel and when the Holy Spirit came to fill the church.
The three' feasts yet to come (the fall feasts) are 'trumpets,
'judgement, and 'dwelling-with-God.
Likewise these are the three events of Messiah that we have yet to
experience here on earth...that is, the coming of His Kingdom at His
return.
1) The trumpets announcing His coming, and then 2) He comes to make
judgement and set all things right, and then 3) the people of the world
dwell with God, they tabernacle with Him and live in His Kingdom.
Yom Teruah (lit. 'Day of Trumpets' aka Rosh Hashannah, Jewish New Year)
Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), when all scales everywhere are balanced
and Sukkoth (Tabernacles), where we dwell at the pleasure of God.
psalmsmith
Hmm, ok. a natural parable of the life, death, and eternity of Christ.
How does a rainbow work? Light comes from the sun, passes through a
screen of water-drops, is refracted into a spectrum, and is projected
onto the clouds.
Where then, is the color? in the light, the water-drops, or in the
clouds? lol 'where does the color of a rainbow come from?' sounds like
the same question, which is why I love Genesis 9:
Genesis 9:12-16
[12] And God said, This is the token of the
covenant which I make between me and you and every living
creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: [13]
I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token
of a covenant between me and the earth. [14] And it shall
come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that
the bow shall be seen in the cloud: [15] And I will
remember my covenant, which is between me and you and
every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall
no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. [16] And the
bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I
may remember the everlasting covenant between God and
every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
the token of the covenant which says " GOD WILL NOT DESTROY MAN " is the
rainbow. The name of that rainbow, I believe, is the name of our
Messiah and Christ.
> >
> > That is what He did. The Son has explained, as His Word has
> > taught and inspired us, and caught us up to be with Christ.
>
>
> i see. this, btw is lovely, but it also explains what you see in
> dabar below.
I tend to envision /haDabar/ as the living 'face' of God, or "all the
expression that He is expressing" which expression is Christ. ho Logos
And as Christ embodies this all-encompassing expression from creation to
end, it is the same God which has spoken to us from beginning to end.
His living Word is, and always has been Jesus Christ; which came one day
in the form of man, that man thereby might be redeemed.
> i see you stretching for words (not stretching credibility but
> for the fuller expression) when you fracture the Word's actions
> into, "taught, inspired, and caught us up to be with Christ." i
> like that. because sometimes we get hung up on the "taught"
> aspect - and see the matter too narrowly as if Jesus is a teacher
> only. by implication, we see life and life experiences only as
> lessons from the primer. that's a part not to be left out
> possibly - but there is much more to the matter.
One of my favorite psalms, and one of my favorite verses, is Psalm 1:1
for the way it leads the progression towards depth. Goes from walk, to
stand, to stay. Goes from advise, to practice, to lifestyle. Goes from
being hostile against God, to being condemned, to being derisive.
I was going for the same device; from the surface, to the life, to the
spiritual depth.
How did Christ Himself teach the Gospel? He taught it to others, He
lived it out in His living, and in the Spirit He cast the light of it
deep into every dark place.
> i suppose some see the "caught up" aspect and do much the same -
> seeing Jesus as "the experience maker/giver" and by implication
> seeing life as one successive search for experiences of a
> numinous or rapturous nature.
'drawn into a harmony with - like into a dance, of constant communion
with, towards the end of outward expressing; the calling going to all
Jesus is the Truth, and He is the reason we dont die when we experience
Truth.
> "the Son has explained" is multicolored, multifaceted, manifold -
> john captures this best IMO - because his gospel is just that -
> multi and mani = on so many levels.
Deeply faceted, yes
> it's what has always been said about john - it has a home for the
> simplest child and the most searching scholar.
idological DNA, life of heart, reproduce light.
> > > > > i am of the opinion that when we read john - we are
> > > > > reading some well used and well produced sermons which
> > > > > gathered shape and form from years of use. just like
> > > > > you and i have discussed the 7's in john's gospel (and
> > > > > writings) i am often on the lookout for the pattern (or
> > > > > patterns) in the pericopes.
> > > >
> > > > Either that, or some kind of /intense/ inspiration. 8-)
> > >
> > > yes, patterns abound within the texts - though not a proof of
> > > inspiration in my thinking (otherwise joseph smith was
> > > inspired as well and no doubt did have some neat specks at
> > > some time or another).
> >
> > I agree that the simple existence of patterns (no matter how
> > complex) do not demand inspiration, any more than 4/4 time
> > makes all music as though it were God-breathed.
>
> or the complex works of lewis carroll or james joyce either.
There are patterns and rhythms, and then there are patterns and rhythms.
Inspiration is above that, yes.
> > But when these patterns fill out and move, like waves of fire
> > over the text, speak in rhythm and form the living face of
> > Christ in a kind of radiant refining outwell of the power of
> > God...
> >
> > Well maybe I figured on paying attention, anway.
>
>
> that was one well written statement. i love the understatement
> of, "well maybe I figured on paying attention, anyway." it's
> more than saying, "i saw the face of mary mother of God in an oil
> slick" or "i see saint john in a potato chip."
Oh Lord bless you, friend, and thank you. I think many of the wars
between us are brought about by over-statements. I think I just wanted
to make a major contrast there; tho I didn't put a lot of soul-searching
into including it.
> do i detect a bit of pyro in you? :-)
It is in seven colored tongues of fire that I most clearly discern the
nature of God's Spirit. I suppose it's "visually speaking in tongues"
if you wanted to invoke a vernacular, but because of that yes, I tend to
express my ideas also along that line.
> incindiary maybe a better term (one i happen to love btw).
Well, I like to start fires too. Came close a couple times to
sacrificing my eyebrows, but I still have all my fingers, thank God.
The transformation of solid matter into hot vapor, expressing energy in
the form of light and heat, reducing complexity and increasing entropy;
The pure way a high-tech engine can burn it's fuel in the form of an
"upside-down tornado" to produce more power from a leaner burn and save
fuel...
:::psalmsmith::: stumbles outide with a pack of matches...
lol, no. really. man, like so many frozen molecules, being picked up
into the hot vapor of God, and reducing the creation behind them to a
pure form.
It it alike enough to make many kinds of illustrations, and yet unalike
enough to know discernment between the temporal and the eternal.
John McComb
Vomiting grass gunk in my laundry basket.
We could get into an argument about what you've presented
here, but frankly...... IT'S TOO HOT!!!!!!!!!!
34 degrees. Yeesh. That's just plain uncomfortable.
Instead I'll tell you about something a college friend
said to me once. He told me about a t-shirt he saw that
had the inscription.
And God said "h²/2m*D²Ÿ +VŸ = ih*dŸ/dt"
And there was light.'
(That's the closest approximation to Schrodinger's wave
equation I could come up with with a plain ascii font)
I thought that was so cool. Since then I've always
wanted a t-shirt like that. It might seem kind of
irreverent to some but to me it says, "Hey, all you
pompous, mirror kissing, scholastic yahoos, you're so
fond of your grand equations you think they're your own
inventions. God was creating this stuff before you were
stardust". Now if we could just come up with something
for those philosophy types.
Actually, my favorite garment is a blue kangaroo
pullover from my son's college. It has a large Jesus
fish symbol on the back with the greek 'Ichthus'
inscription in the middle.
Yours in Christ
John
bible...@yahoo.com
not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things
which are not seen are eternal."
-- 2 Corinthians 4:18
pablo
funny - in a most analogous way - i could see that token as being the
earnest of the Holy Spirit (in it's parallel with the new covenant).
though, that is one of the interesting aspects of john's gospel...
whatever is said of the Spirit is something which can be said of the
Christ. but, then again, john is the one who introduces us to the
"other paraclete." Jesus is one paraclete and he sends us another -
the one which proceeds from the Father - the Holy Spirit.
i always wonder about these newsgroup discussions - it's often the off
handed remark which seems to draw the most attention. though, i know
you have a love for the metaphor and that you are a willing
adventureror when it comes to language and image in your search for
expression of what you see in scripture, in God, in your salvation.
i am currently re-reading george macdonald and i see you two as being
kindreds of sorts - seeing a world with eyes that few others dare to
attempt to put into words...
>
> > >
> > > That is what He did. The Son has explained, as His Word has
> > > taught and inspired us, and caught us up to be with Christ.
> >
> >
> > i see. this, btw is lovely, but it also explains what you see in
> > dabar below.
>
> I tend to envision /haDabar/ as the living 'face' of God, or "all the
> expression that He is expressing" which expression is Christ. ho Logos
>
> And as Christ embodies this all-encompassing expression from creation to
> end, it is the same God which has spoken to us from beginning to end.
>
> His living Word is, and always has been Jesus Christ; which came one day
> in the form of man, that man thereby might be redeemed.
i almost hacked your three statements to pieces - because i wanted to
make the distinction that the word is more than expression - but mind
as well (and more than that) - and when it comes to God - the cosmos
need not have been for the word to have existence. but you said it
better and got to the same point. "His living Word is..."
i should snip everything but this one line - for it is enough of a
commentary on the gospel of john - and would take many pages (or
screens) to even begin to unpack - and yet it only takes a line as
well. "Your word is truth."
that is the deal. we see the witnesses in john in contrast or even at
war with the cosmos (at the very least - completely unseen by the
cosmos). the witness are the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the
scriptures, the disciples, (i think there is one other)... oh, there
are two more... john the baptizer and the works or signs of Jesus.
but, the testimony of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are
given as God's own testimony to his own truth in Jesus, his
declaration, authentication and interpretation, ... it is not from a
position of subordination or a lower place from which the Spirit
witnesses the truth. of which the Spirit can also be called, "truth."
well, it's the off handed that sticks sometimes isn't it?
>
> > do i detect a bit of pyro in you? :-)
>
> It is in seven colored tongues of fire that I most clearly discern the
> nature of God's Spirit. I suppose it's "visually speaking in tongues"
> if you wanted to invoke a vernacular, but because of that yes, I tend to
> express my ideas also along that line.
alright, i may regret asking - only because i often must puzzle when
you get on a roll - but the 7 spirits mentioned in revelation (which
to me has always been an expression of the 7 churches embodied by
Christ - not 7 in a divisive forumaltion but instead some rather grand
statement being made about 7 in 1). so, with this passage from john
on the "being one" and your obvious fondness for the 7 - what's your
take on this.
you might have to go a bit linear for me on this one...
>
> > incindiary maybe a better term (one i happen to love btw).
>
> Well, I like to start fires too. Came close a couple times to
> sacrificing my eyebrows, but I still have all my fingers, thank God.
>
> The transformation of solid matter into hot vapor, expressing energy in
> the form of light and heat, reducing complexity and increasing entropy;
>
> The pure way a high-tech engine can burn it's fuel in the form of an
> "upside-down tornado" to produce more power from a leaner burn and save
> fuel...
>
> :::psalmsmith::: stumbles outide with a pack of matches...
>
> lol, no. really. man, like so many frozen molecules, being picked up
> into the hot vapor of God, and reducing the creation behind them to a
> pure form.
>
> It it alike enough to make many kinds of illustrations, and yet unalike
> enough to know discernment between the temporal and the eternal.
yes, i was going to ask - if you have time that we drop back to the
verses of john 17 - i'd like to see some of the patterns and themes as
they are in the text itself...
specifically, i wonder at your thoughts on the word = truth and the
sanctifying effect of the word. i know we could roll into many
directions - but given the immediate context - what do you see being
said by Jesus along these lines?
peace.
pablo
pablo
you and your cat lore... you know too much about these critters...
>
> We could get into an argument about what you've presented
> here, but frankly...... IT'S TOO HOT!!!!!!!!!!
>
> 34 degrees. Yeesh. That's just plain uncomfortable.
your superior intellect has left me on this one - but i know how to
smile and nod knowingly... does that count?
>
> Instead I'll tell you about something a college friend
> said to me once. He told me about a t-shirt he saw that
> had the inscription.
>
> And God said "h²/2m*D²Ÿ +VŸ = ih*dŸ/dt"
> And there was light.'
>
> (That's the closest approximation to Schrodinger's wave
> equation I could come up with with a plain ascii font)
oh, let me look - i love this page i found once - hold on a sec:
http://www.neti.no/java/sgi_java/WaveSim.html
see that didn't take too long - be sure to play with the variables...
for optimum fun... btw, i tried to post this and it was refused - so
here is try two... you may see two versions saying roughly the same
thing.
>
> I thought that was so cool. Since then I've always
> wanted a t-shirt like that. It might seem kind of
> irreverent to some but to me it says, "Hey, all you
> pompous, mirror kissing, scholastic yahoos, you're so
> fond of your grand equations you think they're your own
> inventions. God was creating this stuff before you were
> stardust". Now if we could just come up with something
> for those philosophy types.
>
> Actually, my favorite garment is a blue kangaroo
> pullover from my son's college. It has a large Jesus
> fish symbol on the back with the greek 'Ichthus'
> inscription in the middle.
>
> Yours in Christ
>
> John
yeah, oppenheimer's canuckaroo principle - any kangaroo left in the
great white north will be blue at some point in time.
peace.
pablo
pablo
just a wee bit of time for posting - so i hope i am repsectful and
that i can express myself clearly...
if not, let's blame it on time for now :-)
"Mordecai!" <"mldavis[please dont spam]"@internode.on.net> wrote in message news:<40F9B672...@internode.on.net>...
funny, i go in the exact opposite direction :-) but apparently for
the same reason. there's more to this matter than talk.
> Also the reason I am teaching Christians how to communicate with Jews.
> If the truth is the truth - then words ought not be a road block.
true. truth being an excellent word when it comes to the gospel of
john. not trying to swing this way off topic - but when you say Jews
- what particular jewish theological school are you speaking about?
maybe an easier question might be - since you suggest this as part of
your personal mission statement. what are the differing schools of
thought in current judaism?
you'll have to unpack what you mean by "consider instead if John was
commenting that this was the name of JC?" i don't follow you.
> Then there are the other mentions of this comment of "the word" - some not speaking about JC ... and Revelation which confirms
> it was his name rather than his being.
maybe you just did unpack what you are saying. but, i'll listen.
could you fill in a bit more for me - maybe not in the negative but
rather in the affirmative of what you see this as meaning concerning
Jesus - and his "name" the word? if that is what you are saying?
>
> Sigh ... the very idea that JC is somehow "spoken" leaves me with goose bumps up and down my spine.
> I do not think Christians have any idea of what their conceptual ideas imply to a jew.
give me a shot. why the goosebumps?
>
> Sorry - I do get on my soap box at times. It is frustrating ... trying to teach Christians that they need to change their
> language to speak to Jews as it does not make sense to the Jews ... it really does not.
i see you are frustrated - if you can lay that aside for a bit and
tell me what you mean - i'd be glad to listen. if you only wish to
tell me that i don't know and that i am wrong then you'll probably not
win a hearing or much of a conversation. remember, we are to do our
best to try and hear how we sound to anyone - the jew first and then
the gentile :-)
maybe, it's time to lay down some frustration - it's newsgroup fodder
for certain and people appear to line up for miles to watch a good
knuckle match... but, it rarely makes for any good conversation.
i'm game to discuss - though i tend to post from google (delay built
in) and sometimes i am not hot or quick to respond - sometimes i am.
i am all ears.
peace.
pablo
pablo
thanks for all the thoughts... if there's something important that i
miss - please just bring it up.
psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message news:<psalmsmith-FCD43...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...
ding ding ding ding... no one has seen God at anytime... no one can
survive it... well, there was One. but, i john it's more than bridge
- i particularly like the vine image as i think it captures more of
the connection.
i want to hear this - but i would only listen if you gave it in
smaller chunks... maybe even beginning with the list and blurb method
you have used below.
please begin this post - and possibly some more on the festivals.
i know what you mean about holding back for certain reasons. but one
we often miss is that it takes so much space to tell and we want to
tell it right when we try.
but, huge isn't good in usenet. at least, my mind turns to rubber -
even when reading this thread we've constructed here...
i would love to hear more - would love to hear it from you. just in
bite sized pieces if at all possible.
you don't have to - but i'd love to see more.
peace.
pablo
John McComb
>>Vomiting grass gunk in my laundry basket.
>
> you and your cat lore... you know too much about these critters...
We must always remember to be kind to our mouse traps.
>>We could get into an argument about what you've presented
>>here, but frankly...... IT'S TOO HOT!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>34 degrees. Yeesh. That's just plain uncomfortable.
>
> your superior intellect has left me on this one - but i know how to
> smile and nod knowingly... does that count?
I'm talking about the weather. 34 degrees is around
93 above in Yankee lingo. Piece of cake to you rain
forest dwellers, I'm sure. Not so much fun for us
tundra types. It's up in the 100's where my Mom lives.
I'm glad she has good air conditioning in her residence.
>>Instead I'll tell you about something a college friend
>>said to me once. He told me about a t-shirt he saw that
>>had the inscription.
>>
>> And God said "h²/2m*D²Ÿ +VŸ = ih*dŸ/dt"
>> And there was light.'
>>
>>(That's the closest approximation to Schrodinger's wave
>>equation I could come up with with a plain ascii font)
>
>
> oh, let me look - i love this page i found once - hold on a sec:
>
> http://www.neti.no/java/sgi_java/WaveSim.html
Hey, that is really cool. But how in the world am I
ever going to get it onto a t-shirt?
>>Actually, my favorite garment is a blue kangaroo
>>pullover from my son's college. It has a large Jesus
>>fish symbol on the back with the greek 'Ichthus'
>>inscription in the middle.
>>
>>Yours in Christ
>>
>>John
>
>
> yeah, oppenheimer's canuckaroo principle - any kangaroo left in the
> great white north will be blue at some point in time.
Ha! A canuckaroo!! That's great. Somebody really ought
to name an animal a canuckaroo. Or maybe we should
invent a mythological canuckaroo for the supermarket
tabloids. Nickname it the 'abominable stump jumper'
or something like that. It could be as big as the
famous 'yankeedillo'.
Yours in Christ
John
Rowland Croucher
"pablo" <rab...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5203610b.04071...@posting.google.com...
<>
> funny - in a most analogous way - i could see that token as being the
> earnest of the Holy Spirit (in it's parallel with the new covenant).
> though, that is one of the interesting aspects of john's gospel...
> whatever is said of the Spirit is something which can be said of the
> Christ. but, then again, john is the one who introduces us to the
> "other paraclete." Jesus is one paraclete and he sends us another -
> the one which proceeds from the Father - the Holy Spirit.
>
> i always wonder about these newsgroup discussions - it's often the off
> handed remark which seems to draw the most attention. though, i know
> you have a love for the metaphor and that you are a willing
> adventureror when it comes to language and image in your search for
> expression of what you see in scripture, in God, in your salvation.
>
> i am currently re-reading george macdonald and i see you two as being
> kindreds of sorts - seeing a world with eyes that few others dare to
> attempt to put into words...
Brilliant man... and virtually an auto-didact. Had a great influence on C S
Lewis...
Sample: http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/articles/4744.htm for a sermon
and http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/articles/2111.htm for a few quotes from
an anthology of George McDonald, edited by C S Lewis.
--
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/
(now 13,000 articles)
http://articlesandreviews.blogspot.com/
psalmsmith
> >
> > > do i detect a bit of pyro in you? :-)
> >
> > It is in seven colored tongues of fire that I most clearly discern the
> > nature of God's Spirit. I suppose it's "visually speaking in tongues"
> > if you wanted to invoke a vernacular, but because of that yes, I tend to
> > express my ideas also along that line.
>
>
> alright, i may regret asking - only because i often must puzzle when
> you get on a roll - but the 7 spirits mentioned in revelation (which
> to me has always been an expression of the 7 churches embodied by
> Christ - not 7 in a divisive forumaltion but instead some rather grand
> statement being made about 7 in 1). so, with this passage from john
> on the "being one" and your obvious fondness for the 7 - what's your
> take on this.
>
> you might have to go a bit linear for me on this one...
Ok, I look at Rev,
[Revelation 5:6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the
midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the
midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,
having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven
Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
i look at 'sent forth into all the earth' and see a process whereby the
Spirit is /communicated/ from one, to another outward. Therefore i see
it's progress along these lines of thought, reason, and discourse; along
with all Gospel roads...since eternal spiritual communion is, in
essence, the /telos/ of the Gospel.
and then i look at 'the seven Spirits of God' and remember
[Revelation 4:5] And out of the throne proceeded
lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were
seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are
the seven Spirits of God.
the seven lamps of fire from chapter 4.
The fires before His throne, expressing His light,
ao I think "His sevenfold expressed light*..."
which we witness as being alive,
because there is a /live connection/ in the Lamb,
(Rev 5:6) having the seeing of seven eyes,
and having the power of seven horns.
* upon which i described the seven colors, pulling from Genesis 9, as a
'highlighter' to help discern the ideas and insights in the surface text.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Translated best into English, i think; the seven eyes are like seven
insights; and the seven horns are like seven ideas.
Each of which originated with Christ.
Because the Gospel becomes a transaction of ideas and thought, of soul,
and of spirit...a deep and abiding Logos is also expressed in thought
and ideas, given power to give life, and presented in eternity.
patterns intermingle, without adding or subtracting. The ideas the
scriptures present are key. The way an ocean ripples far apart from
another surface, is seldom distracting, but it can be.
If there is a pattern evident, a key question is: 'does the pattern
present the same surface text, only 'more deeply?"
or, does the pattern I see wonder off into all kinds of directions?
There is place for both, just as much as both 'impression' and
'expression' have place in the reality that surrounds us. But (within
this context) you only build structures on the 'impressions,' so you
need to know which is which.
Likewise John records Jesus also as saying:
"I AM the ..." (bread of life, water of life, &c.) exactly seven times;
and manifesting exactly seven socitally 'paridigm-level' miracles, that
wound up changing everything.
Seven insights, and seven expressions of power. Seven eyes, and seven
horns. Seven understandings, and seven ideas.
pablo
of course, some would suggest that seven being a number of completness
(which when read this way says the same thing you are) would render
this - the perfect or complete power (authority, ability, etc.) and
the perfect and complete perception (omni's of God) are the perfect or
complete Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
i see you want to deal with the rub in that thought - "seven spirits."
i do find this important link with an idea from john's gospel, "sent
into the earth." or as it reads in john, "sent into the cosmos" is
the mission of the Son and the mission on which the Son sends the
Spirit.
i am listening - just responding, thinking out loud as i read...
>
> and then i look at 'the seven Spirits of God' and remember
>
> [Revelation 4:5] And out of the throne proceeded
> lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were
> seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are
> the seven Spirits of God.
>
> the seven lamps of fire from chapter 4.
> The fires before His throne, expressing His light,
> ao I think "His sevenfold expressed light*..."
> which we witness as being alive,
> because there is a /live connection/ in the Lamb,
> (Rev 5:6) having the seeing of seven eyes,
> and having the power of seven horns.
odd note here and it is a stretch possibly: i think i saw seven
witnesses in the gospel of john: the Father, the Son, the Spirit, the
disciples, the works, the disciples, and john the baptizer.
though, i still tend to see a connection between the 7 lamps - being
the seven churches. while it's an exact number of actual churches - i
still think it suggests something about the witness or testimony of
the church. this probably goes back to the idea of the disciples as
being witnesses - or even further back to the idea of the church being
"one" as in a holistic and really connected part of this, "going into
the world" mission.
>
> * upon which i described the seven colors, pulling from Genesis 9, as a
> 'highlighter' to help discern the ideas and insights in the surface text.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Translated best into English, i think; the seven eyes are like seven
> insights; and the seven horns are like seven ideas.
>
> Each of which originated with Christ.
"insights" as in they are born from looking within the center of the
circle of God? and seven "ideas" in that they are flowing from that
well outward? or are you saying something else or something more?
>
>
> Because the Gospel becomes a transaction of ideas and thought, of soul,
> and of spirit...a deep and abiding Logos is also expressed in thought
> and ideas, given power to give life, and presented in eternity.
>
> patterns intermingle, without adding or subtracting. The ideas the
> scriptures present are key. The way an ocean ripples far apart from
> another surface, is seldom distracting, but it can be.
the idea's (the the whole of this communion or transaction) is an
existent reality in eternity or in the unseen realm of the spirit -
but it is also happening in the seen realm or physical world.
especially, in the ideas you described concerning revelation or
communication of such in the scriptures?
thus, waters in heaven move - and waters on earth move as well? so to
speak - since we are speaking about the phenomenon of patterns.
>
> If there is a pattern evident, a key question is: 'does the pattern
> present the same surface text, only 'more deeply?"
>
> or, does the pattern I see wonder off into all kinds of directions?
>
> There is place for both, just as much as both 'impression' and
> 'expression' have place in the reality that surrounds us. But (within
> this context) you only build structures on the 'impressions,' so you
> need to know which is which.
>
is this like galileo and his thoughts on why waves existed in the
ocean? although he was a brilliant student of the heavenly bodies he
could not see a relation between the moon and the tides. he thought,
i think, that such was non-sense. instead, he tried to explain the
tides through the motions of the earth as he understood it.
there were more directions to go in when considering the tides - but
ruling the moon out of the equation was a step down a wrong path.
IOW, why the patterns in the oceans and great bodies of water? it is
analogous at certain levels i think.
>
>
>
> Likewise John records Jesus also as saying:
>
> "I AM the ..." (bread of life, water of life, &c.) exactly seven times;
> and manifesting exactly seven socitally 'paridigm-level' miracles, that
> wound up changing everything.
>
> Seven insights, and seven expressions of power. Seven eyes, and seven
> horns. Seven understandings, and seven ideas.
one ring to rule them all... sorry, been tolkien reading early this
morning.
i am listening. this last part begs for some expansion in my eyes.
possibly a run down of the seven miracles is the puzzle piece i am
quizzing at? seven expressions of power.
thanks, yeah, this is about the length i can take in at a reading and
still follow along - it was perfect.
looking forward to more.
peace.
pablo
btw, don't let me frustrate you - i know thoughts unwind in trains
cars of thought and i can drive some people crazy by stopping the
train and wanting to peek into the cattle car.
each car has to be a fully functional train car as well. though i am
not that OCD to inspect every little detail and miss the train...
well, i hope not.
pablo
> pablo wrote:
>
> >>Vomiting grass gunk in my laundry basket.
> >
> > you and your cat lore... you know too much about these critters...
>
> We must always remember to be kind to our mouse traps.
i sense these critters are more than mousetraps to you my friend...
you love 'em - go on and confess.
we once had a siamese which had been strangled (long story) and lived.
but, from that time on the cat often would scare us to death as kids.
they make funny noises anyway - but this one would say things which
sounded like some evil little creature slurring words.
for a bit there i thought about that singing frog from the bug's bunny
cartoons and making some money... what is that frog's name?
>
> >>We could get into an argument about what you've presented
> >>here, but frankly...... IT'S TOO HOT!!!!!!!!!!
> >>
> >>34 degrees. Yeesh. That's just plain uncomfortable.
> >
> > your superior intellect has left me on this one - but i know how to
> > smile and nod knowingly... does that count?
>
> I'm talking about the weather. 34 degrees is around
> 93 above in Yankee lingo. Piece of cake to you rain
> forest dwellers, I'm sure. Not so much fun for us
> tundra types. It's up in the 100's where my Mom lives.
> I'm glad she has good air conditioning in her residence.
well, then i did understand - i thought when i read this - hmmm. light
and temp - this guy knows even more about the stuff than i dare even
pretend to play along with. 34 degrees and light stops for a coffee
break or something like that.
>
> >>Instead I'll tell you about something a college friend
> >>said to me once. He told me about a t-shirt he saw that
> >>had the inscription.
> >>
> >> And God said "h²/2m*D²? +V? = ih*d?/dt"
> >> And there was light.'
> >>
> >>(That's the closest approximation to Schrodinger's wave
> >>equation I could come up with with a plain ascii font)
> >
> >
> > oh, let me look - i love this page i found once - hold on a sec:
> >
> > http://www.neti.no/java/sgi_java/WaveSim.html
>
> Hey, that is really cool. But how in the world am I
> ever going to get it onto a t-shirt?
when you do - you're rich. human video games will be only a step or
two away.
>
> >>Actually, my favorite garment is a blue kangaroo
> >>pullover from my son's college. It has a large Jesus
> >>fish symbol on the back with the greek 'Ichthus'
> >>inscription in the middle.
> >>
> >>Yours in Christ
> >>
> >>John
> >
> >
> > yeah, oppenheimer's canuckaroo principle - any kangaroo left in the
> > great white north will be blue at some point in time.
>
> Ha! A canuckaroo!! That's great. Somebody really ought
> to name an animal a canuckaroo. Or maybe we should
> invent a mythological canuckaroo for the supermarket
> tabloids. Nickname it the 'abominable stump jumper'
> or something like that. It could be as big as the
> famous 'yankeedillo'.
>
> Yours in Christ
>
> John
yankeedillos all died from second hand smoke i think. yep, someone
should draw a cancuckaroo - but i fear it would be stolen and used as
some giant singing stuffed human costume for children's education -
ala barney the purple dinasour.
besides, image how foul mouthed that critter would be? a cross
between the tasmanian devil's sputtering slurs and aussie slang....
and complaing all at once about how cold it is and how people are
wimps who cannot take the cold...
i think your tabloid creature idea is best... kinda like aligators in
the nyc sewer systems - this could simply be kangaroo's who were pets
and escaped into the great white north...
btw, 93 degrees is hot anywhere to anyone... i still don't understand
how i grew up in such a place with no airconditioning. we did it -
but i don't even know how when i look back.
peace.
pablo
John McComb
> i sense these critters are more than mousetraps to you my friend...
> you love 'em - go on and confess.
O.K. You've figured me out. I think you deserve a reward.
Would you like a cat?
> we once had a siamese which had been strangled (long story) and lived.
> but, from that time on the cat often would scare us to death as kids.
> they make funny noises anyway - but this one would say things which
> sounded like some evil little creature slurring words.
Please DON'T read 'Pet Sematary' by Steven King.
Seriously, your cat probably lost some territory while
it was incapacitated and felt threatened. Those sounds
are quite natural but pet owners never hear them except
under unusual circumstances because normally house cats
are content and secure. Those sounds are spooky but
really no more so than an owl's hoot, dog's growl, or a
wolf's howl if you are not used to them. You wanna see
something 'really' scary? (Twilight Zone music). Go poke
a badger in the belly with a stick.
> for a bit there i thought about that singing frog from the bug's bunny
> cartoons and making some money... what is that frog's name?
His name was Pierre Elliot Trudeau. He went on to marry
a debutante and lead a country into taxation purgatory.
> well, then i did understand - i thought when i read this - hmmm. light
> and temp - this guy knows even more about the stuff than i dare even
> pretend to play along with. 34 degrees and light stops for a coffee
> break or something like that.
Ha! You are a funny guy indeed, Pablo.
>>>http://www.neti.no/java/sgi_java/WaveSim.html
>>
>>Hey, that is really cool. But how in the world am I
>>ever going to get it onto a t-shirt?
>
> when you do - you're rich. human video games will be only a step or
> two away.
First we need to invent and patent 'java epaulettes'.
> yankeedillos all died from second hand smoke i think.
No, no. Florida highways. Aren't you familiar with the
Florida State Chinese Checkers Team fight song?
'Yankeedillo went to town
hopped up on a cold pill.
Rolled himself into a ball
And quickly became road kill
Yankeedillo get off the road
Yankeedillo make tracks
Yankeedillo get off the road
You're no match for them big Macks'
> yep, someone
> should draw a cancuckaroo - but i fear it would be stolen and used as
> some giant singing stuffed human costume for children's education -
> ala barney the purple dinasour.
Perhaps if you used him in a beer commercial first? Just
a thought. We have beer commercials up here that follow
the adventures of two forest rangers trying to capture
a sasquatch. Not very original when you consider those
'Rainier' commercials way back when. A canuckaroo may be
just what they need.
> besides, image how foul mouthed that critter would be? a cross
> between the tasmanian devil's sputtering slurs and aussie slang....
> and complaing all at once about how cold it is and how people are
> wimps who cannot take the cold...
>
> i think your tabloid creature idea is best... kinda like aligators in
> the nyc sewer systems - this could simply be kangaroo's who were pets
> and escaped into the great white north...
Sounds excellent. Kangaroos with thick winter coats and
goose down lined pouches. Seen not in sewers, but mingling
at didgeridoo music festivals.
>
> btw, 93 degrees is hot anywhere to anyone... i still don't understand
> how i grew up in such a place with no airconditioning. we did it -
> but i don't even know how when i look back.
Kool aid, popsicles, and lawn sprinklers I expect.
Yours in Christ
John
Mark Tindall
> > i am currently re-reading george macdonald
....
> Brilliant man... and virtually an auto-didact. Had a great influence on
> C S Lewis...
I particularly liked "Phantastes" and his kid's books like "At The Back of
the North Wind"
pablo
> pablo wrote:
>
>
> > i sense these critters are more than mousetraps to you my friend...
> > you love 'em - go on and confess.
>
> O.K. You've figured me out. I think you deserve a reward.
> Would you like a cat?
i am not sure - what exactly is the cat to person sanity ratio? i
know that 40 to 1 is a dead give away... but, where is that line
exactly?
pablo feeling real stupid if john has 40 cats...
>
> > we once had a siamese which had been strangled (long story) and lived.
> > but, from that time on the cat often would scare us to death as kids.
> > they make funny noises anyway - but this one would say things which
> > sounded like some evil little creature slurring words.
>
> Please DON'T read 'Pet Sematary' by Steven King.
>
> Seriously, your cat probably lost some territory while
> it was incapacitated and felt threatened. Those sounds
> are quite natural but pet owners never hear them except
> under unusual circumstances because normally house cats
> are content and secure. Those sounds are spooky but
> really no more so than an owl's hoot, dog's growl, or a
> wolf's howl if you are not used to them. You wanna see
> something 'really' scary? (Twilight Zone music). Go poke
> a badger in the belly with a stick.
that explains a lot. the cat only made those noises towards males in
the house. it was male cat. it never attacked my father's leg again
- which is part of the strangle story. instead, he just moved next to
a wall and worked his way out of the room when my father was about. i
suppose the all out assualt on my father who had fallen asleep in a
lazy-boy might have been his way of taking on the alpha male? to my
father's defense he woke up with a near dead cat in his hands and one
leg was severly lacerated. i am serious, we all were quite amazed at
the damage that cat did to his leg - it was unbelievable. my dad
dropped the cat as he was waking - and it laid there motionless on the
floor for a long long time. he was sitting there thinking of how to
tell his daughter that he'd killed her cat with his bare hands - when
the cat jumped up and went into hidding to mend.
i got more cat stories - they i'll have to tell you about my cat,
"orphan," who lived to become, the great "mr. kitty."
>
> > for a bit there i thought about that singing frog from the bug's bunny
> > cartoons and making some money... what is that frog's name?
>
> His name was Pierre Elliot Trudeau. He went on to marry
> a debutante and lead a country into taxation purgatory.
i see... now, you get the funny points.
>
> > well, then i did understand - i thought when i read this - hmmm. light
> > and temp - this guy knows even more about the stuff than i dare even
> > pretend to play along with. 34 degrees and light stops for a coffee
> > break or something like that.
>
> Ha! You are a funny guy indeed, Pablo.
so how does trudeau figure into this - you still seem to be one up on
the funny points.
>
>
> >>>http://www.neti.no/java/sgi_java/WaveSim.html
> >>
> >>Hey, that is really cool. But how in the world am I
> >>ever going to get it onto a t-shirt?
> >
> > when you do - you're rich. human video games will be only a step or
> > two away.
>
> First we need to invent and patent 'java epaulettes'.
now - we're even on the funny points... it was funny - but sometimes
puns take points away.
>
>
> > yankeedillos all died from second hand smoke i think.
>
> No, no. Florida highways. Aren't you familiar with the
> Florida State Chinese Checkers Team fight song?
>
> 'Yankeedillo went to town
> hopped up on a cold pill.
> Rolled himself into a ball
> And quickly became road kill
>
> Yankeedillo get off the road
> Yankeedillo make tracks
> Yankeedillo get off the road
> You're no match for them big Macks'
now, i have friends in alabama who have many theories and much
armadillo lore... they suspect that much is going on behind the
scenes in the world and the armadillos apparently have some power in
world affairs.
they're dillo-lore is almost as convincing as my facts uncovered
concerning the secret life of squirrels - who i believe account for
most bear, bigfoot, and some elvis sightings.
>
> > yep, someone
> > should draw a cancuckaroo - but i fear it would be stolen and used as
> > some giant singing stuffed human costume for children's education -
> > ala barney the purple dinasour.
>
> Perhaps if you used him in a beer commercial first? Just
> a thought. We have beer commercials up here that follow
> the adventures of two forest rangers trying to capture
> a sasquatch. Not very original when you consider those
> 'Rainier' commercials way back when. A canuckaroo may be
> just what they need.
well, of course - if that had only been done with barney and baby bop
- the whole matter would have turned another way i suppose... though,
i suggest that barney would make a better ad-guy for hallucina..
halluci... pot. muchies is the only possible explanation for that
purple gut... at least i hope so.
actually, on the tv series angel - there's an episode called "smile
time" where a group of muppet like creatures...
http://smiletime.restless-slayer.com/
http://www.buffyworld.com/angel/season5/transcripts/5x14_tran.php
>
>
> > besides, image how foul mouthed that critter would be? a cross
> > between the tasmanian devil's sputtering slurs and aussie slang....
> > and complaing all at once about how cold it is and how people are
> > wimps who cannot take the cold...
> >
> > i think your tabloid creature idea is best... kinda like aligators in
> > the nyc sewer systems - this could simply be kangaroo's who were pets
> > and escaped into the great white north...
>
> Sounds excellent. Kangaroos with thick winter coats and
> goose down lined pouches. Seen not in sewers, but mingling
> at didgeridoo music festivals.
or shivering in front of a hot plate with a can of beans and a can of
beer.
> >
> > btw, 93 degrees is hot anywhere to anyone... i still don't understand
> > how i grew up in such a place with no airconditioning. we did it -
> > but i don't even know how when i look back.
>
> Kool aid, popsicles, and lawn sprinklers I expect.
>
yeah, thanks for the memories - you nailed three of them dead on.
peace.
pablo
psalmsmith
> > Where then, is the color? in the light, the water-drops, or in the
> > clouds? lol 'where does the color of a rainbow come from?' sounds like
> > the same question, which is why I love Genesis 9:
> >
> > Genesis 9:12-16
> > [12] And God said, This is the token of the
> > covenant which I make between me and you and every living
> > creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: [13]
> > I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token
> > of a covenant between me and the earth. [14] And it shall
> > come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that
> > the bow shall be seen in the cloud: [15] And I will
> > remember my covenant, which is between me and you and
> > every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall
> > no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. [16] And the
> > bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I
> > may remember the everlasting covenant between God and
> > every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
> >
> > the token of the covenant which says " GOD WILL NOT DESTROY MAN " is the
> > rainbow. The name of that rainbow, I believe, is the name of our
> > Messiah and Christ.
He is the point upon which we should all balance our grasp of reality,
upon His Christ and Holy Spirit.
> funny - in a most analogous way - i could see that token as being the
> earnest of the Holy Spirit (in it's parallel with the new covenant).
> though, that is one of the interesting aspects of john's gospel...
> whatever is said of the Spirit is something which can be said of the
> Christ. but, then again, john is the one who introduces us to the
> "other paraclete." Jesus is one paraclete and he sends us another -
> the one which proceeds from the Father - the Holy Spirit.
I can see it that way too, actually to me both statements are saying the
exact same thing. Like a big equation, just swapping around two
products that are added together in the middle. Is it 4+8=12 or is it
8+4=12?
which is why calling it the "earnest of the Holy Spirit" I had to look
twice, trying to see how we had said anything different.
I don't think we did, really, when seeing Jesus' union with the Father
(bear in mind, this was the subject of Jesus' prayer concerning us)
because He prayed that they would be one together, so that we could be
one with /them/ in Christ.
That's how come we are able to reach out at grasping God, through our
granted unity with Christ, and His (natural and supernatural) unity with
YHVH, Yahyveh, or maybe YhHyVhH. Yeah, I like that last one. put "hyh"
inside the tetragram, and look it fits. (don't let noone fool you
though, nobody really knows how to say it, but God.)
I don't think we will ever reach, but see: we can grasp at God.
Jesus Christ did that for us, in the light of the Holy Spirit. What I
did would likely be considered blasphemy amongst much of Abrahams
family, but to me that's just as good if not better than just taking the
vowels out of "Adonai' Jesus made us one with Him, because He knew how
powerful that prayer of unity with God would be; so that in the end,
even the church will carry out the living expression of Christ.
> i always wonder about these newsgroup discussions - it's often the off
> handed remark which seems to draw the most attention. though, i know
> you have a love for the metaphor and that you are a willing
> adventureror when it comes to language and image in your search for
> expression of what you see in scripture, in God, in your salvation.
>
> i am currently re-reading george macdonald and i see you two as being
> kindreds of sorts - seeing a world with eyes that few others dare to
> attempt to put into words...
>
The reason I like to go for such metaphor is an attempt at honing
discernment. I find complex statements can be more easily said bluntly.
But I don't generally lean to blunt, I lean to 'hone, discern, sharply'
as the path I would like to see my character develop. I generally have
to translate now, but I don't mind. I'll figure that out in the end,
but I do mind people screaming about what they thought they saw before
asking asking about it. You are and always have been the absolute
opposite of that, even if I haven't.
I have not read Mr Macdonald, and now I will have to. 8-) Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > That is what He did. The Son has explained, as His Word has
> > > > taught and inspired us, and caught us up to be with Christ.
> > >
> > >
> > > i see. this, btw is lovely, but it also explains what you see in
> > > dabar below.
> >
> > I tend to envision /haDabar/ as the living 'face' of God, or "all the
> > expression that He is expressing" which expression is Christ. ho Logos
> >
> > And as Christ embodies this all-encompassing expression from creation to
> > end, it is the same God which has spoken to us from beginning to end.
> >
> > His living Word is, and always has been Jesus Christ; which came one day
> > in the form of man, that man thereby might be redeemed.
>
> i almost hacked your three statements to pieces - because i wanted to
> make the distinction that the word is more than expression - but mind
> as well (and more than that) - and when it comes to God - the cosmos
> need not have been for the word to have existence. but you said it
> better and got to the same point. "His living Word is..."
>
There is a whole lot to any one deep thing of God, that cannot be
addressed in any one sitting. Like John said "If all the things were
written..."
Mind, heart, impulse, will, act, logic, and action are a few descriptors
that leap quickly to mind when I think of /ho Logos/.
<-/->
> >
> > Jesus is the Truth, and He is the reason we dont die when we experience
> > Truth.
>
> i should snip everything but this one line - for it is enough of a
> commentary on the gospel of john - and would take many pages (or
> screens) to even begin to unpack - and yet it only takes a line as
> well. "Your word is truth."
Amen!
> that is the deal. we see the witnesses in john in contrast or even at
> war with the cosmos (at the very least - completely unseen by the
> cosmos). the witness are the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the
> scriptures, the disciples, (i think there is one other)... oh, there
> are two more... john the baptizer and the works or signs of Jesus.
An ideal set.
> but, the testimony of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are
> given as God's own testimony to his own truth in Jesus, his
> declaration, authentication and interpretation, ... it is not from a
> position of subordination or a lower place from which the Spirit
> witnesses the truth. of which the Spirit can also be called, "truth."
and these, the Father Son and Holy Spirit, bear one witness together.
psalmsmith
rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
Well, I can get real long winded on that, so I'll start with the bit
that made it easier for me, personally, and can go on to draw it out
from there if that doesn't do it.
On some episode in my 'adventures with scripture & seven hilighters' and
after I had gotten formal training in Hebrew, something struck me and I
translated the seven pieces of Jesus' Hebrew name. The...string of
seven thoughts that resulted actually matched a recurring pattern of
thoughts I had discovered (with my seven hilighters) throughout the
scripture.
That's when I really connected this whole grand thing.
I'd love to break it down for you, before I do, though, can you read
Hebrew encoding? it'd make it a lot easier on me.
Oh wait, I've done this before....here we go, i't a bit long, but it's
just copy/pasted so feel free to skim. I'll bullet € the actual
particle definitions and hope that will help.
Yeshua Moshiach Emmanuel
yod shin The Word of God
vav ayin he (made) flesh
mem shin (to be the) holy
yod chet ground (of sacrifice)
ayin mem with (fellowship between)
nun vav us
aleph lamed and God('s fullness)
€ Yes (yod shin) pronounced 'yesh' in Hebrew means 'being, substance,
existence' [strongs number 3426]. In Proverbs 8:21 it is translated as
'substance' in "to cause them that love me to inherit substance" and in
Gen 28:16 it is translated 'is' in the phrase "surely YHVH is in this
place" and so on. I think of it as a reference to /ho logos/
€ Hua (vav ayin) pronounced 'ua' in Hebrew is particularly difficult to
pin down because of the nature of Hebrew. 'vav' is a conjunction
(meaning 'and' among other things) so there is no substantiative lexical
formulation of words beginning with vav. However, the usage of the
particle may be explored from it's being embedded in other words, due to
the nature of the Hebrew language. Prominent among these usages, is
'shua' (shin vav ayin) which means 'wealth, opulence' (str7770) and
interestingly it was the name of the father of Judah's wife. Also, the
same consonants mean 'to cry out for help' (str7768,69,71,73). Another
word which uses the particle is 'zeroa' (zayin resh vav ayin) meaning
'arm, shoulder(flesh), strength' [str2220].
[Ps 18:6] In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried <07768> unto
my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him,
even into his ears. [Job 30:24] Howbeit he will not stretch out his
hand to the grave, though they cry <07769> in his destruction. [Job
36:19] Will he esteem thy riches <07769>? no, not gold, nor all the
forces of strength. [Isa 32:5] The vile person shall be no more called
liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful <07771>. [Ex 6:6] Wherefore
say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out
from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their
bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm <02220>, and
with great judgments: [De 5:15] And remember that thou wast a servant
in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence
through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm <02220>: therefore the
LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. [2Ch 32:8] With
him is an arm <02220> of flesh; but with us is the LORD our God to help
us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the
words of Hezekiah king of Judah.
Assuredly, not very much can be taken from how a particle is used in
another word, but more so from Hebrew than from English. So let's then
look at the whole word, 'Yeshua' (yod shin vav ayin) and see what it
means.
Yeshua (yod shin vav ayin [he]) is rendered as 'the salvation which
comes from God' and 'prosperity' in various places. [str3444] [Ex 15:2]
The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation <03444>:
he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father©–s God,
and I will exalt him.
The next word then would be Messia (more correctly rendered in Hebrew as
Moshiach) which we say in English as 'Messiah.' The Hebrew spelling for
this is (mem shin yod chet)
€ Mes (mem shin) pronounced 'mosh' from which we get 'drawn out' [str
4851] 'Moses' [str 4872,73] 'oil' [str 4886,87] 'to draw, cleanse, wash'
[str4871] 'to annoint' [str4886] and 'consecrated portion' [str4888].
€ Sia (yod chet) pronounced 'yach' (ch - like the composer Bach) is
found in words like 'yechad' to unite or set alone [str3161] 'yechyad'
meaning 'only one' which is rendered in the psalms 22:21 and 35:17 as
'my darling' meaning poetically 'my life.' Other meanings are
unitedness, together, to struggle, [str3162] to walk barefoot (as if on
holy ground)
Moshiach then (from which we get 'Christ') means 'anointed one (prince)'
[str4899]
Finally to the last word, Emmanuel, spelled in Hebrew as (ayin mem-mem
nun vav-surek aleph lamed), meaning 'with us is God' [str6005]
€ Ema (ayin mem) pronounced 'emma' is a Hebrew word meaning 'with'
[str5973]. as I think 'fellowship with man and God.'
€ Nu (nun vav-surek) pronounced 'new' is generally a suffix, which on a
verb means 'we' do an action, and on a noun meaning that object is
'ours.' It can be found with a 'he' on the end to mean 'to beautify, to
dwell or abide' [str5115] 'abode of shepherd, dwelling abode' [str5116]
'pasture, meadow' [str4999,5116] and with a chet 'to rest' [str5117]
Very prominent among the words constructed with this particle is the
notion of a 'haven' or a place of refuge and rest. It may be found in
such words as 'nuun' [str5125] to mean the propagation of life. Also,
there is a sense of elevation or height. I will be rendering it
generally as 'a common refuge for life,' in short 'living waters' or the
'water of life'
€ El (aleph lamed) pronounced 'el' is a Hebrew word meaning 'God'
[str410] and it is also used to signify might, divine hero, the God of
heaven, the God of glory, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, and much much
more. [Ge 14:18] And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and
wine: and he was the priest of the most high God <0410>. [2Sa 22:31] As
for God <0410>, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is
a buckler to all them that trust in him. [Ps 18:32] It is God <0410>
that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect. Fullness and
perfection.
> i do find this important link with an idea from john's gospel, "sent
> into the earth." or as it reads in john, "sent into the cosmos" is
> the mission of the Son and the mission on which the Son sends the
> Spirit.
And the mission the Son sends us out in the Spirit to do, too.
Supposedly like a million self-propelled torches running around and
bumping into dry things. Only somewhere along the way we forgot to
bump. Or forgot how to bump, or maybe both.
> i am listening - just responding, thinking out loud as i read...
Please feel free to only skim the copy/pasted passage, the rest there is
if you want to go into the depth of some bit, but I tried to hilight the
bits themselves and make them easier to skim to.
(actually, I like to format my posts for easy skimming, and generally
expect replies just on bits that draw people in.)
But once I knew that the translation of the Hebrew name of Christ tied
in so tightly with the pattern I had already resolved spanning many
books from the old and new testaments, I drew that line from Rev 4&5 and
finished the parallelogram in Rev 10 an Gen 9.
(Rev 10 - the seven thunders sent outward into the earth, by the angel
with a rainbow halo. Gen 9, the rainbow covenant) I made the 'seven
thunders' themselves into the thought-patterns on the face of it, (i.e.
the seven "spoken" thoughts above) and the seven eyes and horns of the
Lamb into the driving dynamic behind it.
From then on, whenever I found another one of these patterns in, say
Genesis, it became for me just another rumble of the 'seven thunders'
that first went out in Rev 10.
psalmsmith
>
>
> >
> > and then i look at 'the seven Spirits of God' and remember
> >
> > [Revelation 4:5] And out of the throne proceeded
> > lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were
> > seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are
> > the seven Spirits of God.
> >
> > the seven lamps of fire from chapter 4.
> > The fires before His throne, expressing His light,
> > ao I think "His sevenfold expressed light*..."
> > which we witness as being alive,
> > because there is a /live connection/ in the Lamb,
> > (Rev 5:6) having the seeing of seven eyes,
> > and having the power of seven horns.
>
> odd note here and it is a stretch possibly: i think i saw seven
> witnesses in the gospel of john: the Father, the Son, the Spirit, the
> disciples, the works, the disciples, and john the baptizer.
I can see that, and looking into it I can see it provides
action-reaction discourse. I'll have to look deeper at that for sure.
You are not wrong.
> though, i still tend to see a connection between the 7 lamps - being
> the seven churches. while it's an exact number of actual churches - i
> still think it suggests something about the witness or testimony of
> the church. this probably goes back to the idea of the disciples as
> being witnesses - or even further back to the idea of the church being
> "one" as in a holistic and really connected part of this, "going into
> the world" mission.
I couldn't agree more with the lamps and churches connection. it
is...the same reflection...I mentioned in the last post, saying:
And the mission the Son sends us out in the Spirit to do, too.
That's the word /us/ I was actually trying to emphasize there in that
section. The seven lamps to seven candelsticks/churches image is the
same reflection, as God's sent mission of Christ is to Christ's sent
mission of us, parted out the way we did before. Again, it makes the
same equation.
I suppose it would sound more natural to go in the other direction, but
I dunno, maybe I have a weird sense of humor or something, but I do like
to place the equal-sign in some weird spots on the equation.
> > * upon which i described the seven colors, pulling from Genesis 9, as a
> > 'highlighter' to help discern the ideas and insights in the surface text.
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Translated best into English, i think; the seven eyes are like seven
> > insights; and the seven horns are like seven ideas.
> >
> > Each of which originated with Christ.
>
>
> "insights" as in they are born from looking within the center of the
> circle of God? and seven "ideas" in that they are flowing from that
> well outward? or are you saying something else or something more?
Yes, from looking at God, but also from looking at us. That's why the
word 'insights' isn't nearly perfect, because it's not that He's learned
from us, altho it does involves our being seen...
To be honest, and this goes way off the beaten path again,
I most liken it to the three colors of the cones in your retinas, or the
three colors of light on your monitor display. A combination of these
three colors can produce any color visible.
Well just like you have red, green, and blue cones in your eyes; I can
envision the seven eyes as the 'one-in-seven' "filters" of creation that
together can reproduce (i.e. in this case 'see') anything that is. Or
all of creation, so on. See everything.
Or back the other way; the seven Spirits were sent out into all the
earth (kosmos), and then the eyes can see everywhere that the Spirit
is/has gone. See everything.
See what I mean? They add up to the same thing.
Anyway, seven "prime" thoughts/ideas just like the three primary colors,
but in the "logos-realm," that can be assembled together in such a way
to say anything that can possibly be said. The eyes as the reverse part
of that same dynamic. a thought-wise 'reassembling the colors'
Y'know, metaphoring colors to ideas like this, the word 'insights' still
fits pretty well, but I guess really not in the way it is normally taken.
> > Because the Gospel becomes a transaction of ideas and thought, of soul,
> > and of spirit...a deep and abiding Logos is also expressed in thought
> > and ideas, given power to give life, and presented in eternity.
> >
> > patterns intermingle, without adding or subtracting. The ideas the
> > scriptures present are key. The way an ocean ripples far apart from
> > another surface, is seldom distracting, but it can be.
>
> the idea's (the the whole of this communion or transaction) is an
> existent reality in eternity or in the unseen realm of the spirit -
> but it is also happening in the seen realm or physical world.
> especially, in the ideas you described concerning revelation or
> communication of such in the scriptures?
>
> thus, waters in heaven move - and waters on earth move as well? so to
> speak - since we are speaking about the phenomenon of patterns.
It is, easy to see the 'makeup' of the seven prime thoughts in scripture
because they often get laid out in pretty lines and so on. In other
persons, the patterns they (the primary thoughts) form in reproducing a
given thought, can indicate an inspiration or a lack thereof of the
speakers words. But all thoughts that exist can be produced with these
'blocks' in the same way the three primary colors can produce all colors.
so saying 'waters on heaven and earth,' I think you were maybe more
right than you knew about what i was saying, only in a somewhat
perpendicular direction.
> > If there is a pattern evident, a key question is: 'does the pattern
> > present the same surface text, only 'more deeply?"
> >
> > or, does the pattern I see wonder off into all kinds of directions?
> >
> > There is place for both, just as much as both 'impression' and
> > 'expression' have place in the reality that surrounds us. But (within
> > this context) you only build structures on the 'impressions,' so you
> > need to know which is which.
> >
>
> is this like galileo and his thoughts on why waves existed in the
> ocean? although he was a brilliant student of the heavenly bodies he
> could not see a relation between the moon and the tides. he thought,
> i think, that such was non-sense. instead, he tried to explain the
> tides through the motions of the earth as he understood it.
>
> there were more directions to go in when considering the tides - but
> ruling the moon out of the equation was a step down a wrong path.
Especially with the extreme temporal correlation, but apparently his
grasp of gravity didn't extend that far.
Or right, he probably thought that the same thing which moved the
oceans, moved the moon. He just went the wrong direction. I see what
you mean.
It would be like the same thing then, going outward instead of inward.
Build structures on the inward ones, not the outward ones. Yeah, it
would be like that.
> IOW, why the patterns in the oceans and great bodies of water? it is
> analogous at certain levels i think.
>
I do too. Is the movement of the moon a reflection of some unknown
earthen force, or is the movement of the tides, a refelction of the moon?
When you dig this into scripture, and "other paradigms" of 'heavenly
bodies' you have God reflecting in his word.
Shalom Ab'yyach pablo.
psalmsmith
> > Likewise John records Jesus also as saying:
> >
> > "I AM the ..." (bread of life, water of life, &c.) exactly seven times;
> > and manifesting exactly seven socitally 'paridigm-level' miracles, that
> > wound up changing everything.
> >
> > Seven insights, and seven expressions of power. Seven eyes, and seven
> > horns. Seven understandings, and seven ideas.
>
> one ring to rule them all... sorry, been tolkien reading early this
> morning.
But it's the right thought. No need to be sorry. It is indeed a
powerful thing, which is why I thank God the power of it rests in His
hand.
> i am listening. this last part begs for some expansion in my eyes.
> possibly a run down of the seven miracles is the puzzle piece i am
> quizzing at? seven expressions of power.
(+my own comments)
1) Changes water to wine: 2:1-10
(Power over reality to speak it into being, strongly related to /logos/)
2) Heals the nobleman's son: 4:46-54
(Power specificaly over the flesh)
3) Heals the paralytic 5:1-9
(holiness, set-apartness, the uniqueness of this power)
4) Feeds the 5000 6:1-14
(Provides much bread from a boy's sacrifice)
5) Walks on water 6:15-21
(Peter could do it too, if his mind stayed on the fellowship of Christ)
6) Heals the blind man 9:1-41
(hey! this applies to EVERYONE!) [i.e. water of life, and we were all
blind, (the blind man) but the gospel restores our vision. restricted
from no one] - all of life -
7) and Raises Lazarus from the dead 11:1-44
("Power over eternity" over the fulfillment of all things. The final
state of all existance was written in Jesus' hand.)
> thanks, yeah, this is about the length i can take in at a reading and
> still follow along - it was perfect.
>
> looking forward to more.
I am really enjoying it, rational far-fetched discussions are hard to
come by. I can already feel a bunch of muscle growing from the exercise.
> peace.
> pablo
>
> btw, don't let me frustrate you - i know thoughts unwind in trains
> cars of thought and i can drive some people crazy by stopping the
> train and wanting to peek into the cattle car.
Please, I don't mind at all. My original plan was to grow the
conversation to a certain point, break it off into pieces under new
subject headers, and then add a couple groups to the pieces as they
developed along, only good ones.
I decided against the last bit though and decided if that happened it'd
be a mutual thing.
> each car has to be a fully functional train car as well. though i am
> not that OCD to inspect every little detail and miss the train...
> well, i hope not.
Well maybe between your OCD and my ADD our own thoughts will form enough
interferance patterns that someone, somewhere might glimpse an image of
truth within.
Peace, Pablo; and God-speed you.
John McComb
> i am not sure - what exactly is the cat to person sanity ratio? i
> know that 40 to 1 is a dead give away... but, where is that line
> exactly?
>
> pablo feeling real stupid if john has 40 cats...
Three cats. Sanity level: not so good. At the moment it's
being severely tested in another thread. Think I'll just
let it drive on by.
> that explains a lot. the cat only made those noises towards males in
> the house. it was male cat. it never attacked my father's leg again
> - which is part of the strangle story. instead, he just moved next to
> a wall and worked his way out of the room when my father was about. i
> suppose the all out assualt on my father who had fallen asleep in a
> lazy-boy might have been his way of taking on the alpha male? to my
> father's defense he woke up with a near dead cat in his hands and one
> leg was severly lacerated. i am serious, we all were quite amazed at
> the damage that cat did to his leg - it was unbelievable. my dad
> dropped the cat as he was waking - and it laid there motionless on the
> floor for a long long time. he was sitting there thinking of how to
> tell his daughter that he'd killed her cat with his bare hands - when
> the cat jumped up and went into hidding to mend.
What a sad story. I'm glad everything turned out for the
best.
Cats have very sharp claws and strong paws. They can do
a lot of damage in the right circumstances. It's
amazing that cats and humans can exist together so
closely the way they do.
People (adults, anyway) should not sleep with their cats.
People are just too large and cats are just too trusting.
Your dad probably shifted himself in his sleep in a way
that crushed or suffocated the cat and the claw damage
probably resulted from the cat's efforts to escape. The
strangling action was probably a half asleep/ half awake
reaction by your dad to the trauma.
I used to let my cats sleep with me until I bought a
pine Ikea bed with a headboard and baseboard. One night,
shortly after, I was jarred awake by this strange movement
at my feet. Once I got my bearings I realized that I
had one of my cats pinned against a doweling on the
baseboard with my foot and I was literally crushing her
neck. It scared me to death and I've locked all of the
cats out of my room at night since that time.
> so how does trudeau figure into this - you still seem to be one up on
> the funny points.
Well, Margaret frequently played the nervous titter
running through the crowd. However I'm not quite sure
how this lines up with light taking coffee breaks at
34 degrees.
>>First we need to invent and patent 'java epaulettes'.
>
>
> now - we're even on the funny points... it was funny - but sometimes
> puns take points away.
Yes, that was a groaner for sure, wasn't it? I thought
I made up for it with the song, though. I guess I
overestimated its power. Maybe I shouldn't have left out
the part... 'sung to the tune of Yankee Doodle, played
with a Bruce Springsteen-esque wall of sound'.
> now, i have friends in alabama who have many theories and much
> armadillo lore... they suspect that much is going on behind the
> scenes in the world and the armadillos apparently have some power in
> world affairs.
>
> they're dillo-lore is almost as convincing as my facts uncovered
> concerning the secret life of squirrels - who i believe account for
> most bear, bigfoot, and some elvis sightings.
You have squirrels with big feet?
> well, of course - if that had only been done with barney and baby bop
> - the whole matter would have turned another way i suppose... though,
> i suggest that barney would make a better ad-guy for hallucina..
> halluci... pot. muchies is the only possible explanation for that
> purple gut... at least i hope so.
Ha! Well, that's it. I have got to watch this Barney
character to see what all the fuss is about.
> actually, on the tv series angel - there's an episode called "smile
> time" where a group of muppet like creatures...
>
>
> http://smiletime.restless-slayer.com/
> http://www.buffyworld.com/angel/season5/transcripts/5x14_tran.php
'buffyworld.com', pablo????
God Bless.
Yours in Christ
John
pablo
> In article <5203610b.04072...@posting.google.com>,
> rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
>
> > > Likewise John records Jesus also as saying:
> > >
> > > "I AM the ..." (bread of life, water of life, &c.) exactly seven times;
> > > and manifesting exactly seven socitally 'paridigm-level' miracles, that
> > > wound up changing everything.
> > >
> > > Seven insights, and seven expressions of power. Seven eyes, and seven
> > > horns. Seven understandings, and seven ideas.
> >
> > one ring to rule them all... sorry, been tolkien reading early this
> > morning.
>
> But it's the right thought. No need to be sorry. It is indeed a
> powerful thing, which is why I thank God the power of it rests in His
> hand.
too true too true... here's a lyric from the song "unity":
"the world is heading for a mutiny, when all we want is unity
we may rise and fall, but in the end, we'll meet our fate together
one... oh, one... .the only way is one"
tolkein's been a great re-read during this discussion. i purposely
held off on re-reading the rings trilogy for over a decade - i wanted
to forget as much as possible and enjoy them again as much as
possible.
but, this dang photographic memory...
seriously, something i had not caught before in my readings was some
of tolkien's myth and philology hidden or woven into the stories. one
being the meanings of names or the appearance of things "on this side
and that side" of the spiritual equation.
but, also the power of the stories, songs, tales, words, ect. one
really sees this in rivendell where the songs and tales take on 3-D
proportions to the elf hearers and when the hobbitses experience this
wonder of words - they feel as if they are slipping under a spell or
into a dream. they actually begin to see the words of the song - or
better the ideas -- or even better the reality within the words.
in my first read of these books i was a bit bothered by tolkien's
taking a side path to have a character sing a song or tell a tale. it
wasn't always exposition - so i just skimmed a great deal of the
prosey parts.
this time, i am getting a bit of his commentary on the matter - and
taking the detours willingly.
ok - now that you have wet my appetite - unless you have more to say
at this point on the powers - could you go into the 7 insights (and
why you call them so)?
>
> > each car has to be a fully functional train car as well. though i am
> > not that OCD to inspect every little detail and miss the train...
> > well, i hope not.
>
> Well maybe between your OCD and my ADD our own thoughts will form enough
> interferance patterns that someone, somewhere might glimpse an image of
> truth within.
>
the mix should be fun...
i have a thread of thought that keeps coming to me as i read this -
but i cannot quite capture it at present. something to do with the
lyric i quoted above about all of humanity meeting the same fate
together.
also, something from tolkien ala bilbo baggins about all roads being
connected and the dangerous business of stepping out one's door onto
the lane in front of their house.
but, it's needing to simmer a bit...
hopefully, i'll be able to pour a cup before we conclude this
conversation.
peace.<-- my prayer for you (as i always intend the word by use of the
period)
pablo
pablo
thread. you have done it here - i will comment on it soon.
thanks.
peace.
pablo
psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message news:<psalmsmith-DD39D...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...
pablo
>
> But once I knew that the translation of the Hebrew name of Christ tied
> in so tightly with the pattern I had already resolved spanning many
> books from the old and new testaments, I drew that line from Rev 4&5 and
> finished the parallelogram in Rev 10 an Gen 9.
>
> (Rev 10 - the seven thunders sent outward into the earth, by the angel
> with a rainbow halo. Gen 9, the rainbow covenant) I made the 'seven
> thunders' themselves into the thought-patterns on the face of it, (i.e.
> the seven "spoken" thoughts above) and the seven eyes and horns of the
> Lamb into the driving dynamic behind it.
>
> From then on, whenever I found another one of these patterns in, say
> Genesis, it became for me just another rumble of the 'seven thunders'
> that first went out in Rev 10.
love that last line.... i will give this another read. we've covered
some of this in the past - but now i am really hearing you.
i may post again in reply to this post.
thanks for the tour.
peace.
pablo
p.s. yes, i can read the hebrew trans... my hebrew is rough and all
my scriptures in hebrew got lost in a recent move (costly in more ways
than one to replace when i am able). it appears only a hebrew grammar
and one lexicon have survived the move. i do hope the books went with
the many i gave away and not into the trash somewhere - even then, i
hope they were not destroyed - but that someone might find them and
find use.
bible...@yahoo.com
the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
-- 1 John 5:7
psalmsmith
>
> p.s. yes, i can read the hebrew trans... my hebrew is rough and all
> my scriptures in hebrew got lost in a recent move (costly in more ways
> than one to replace when i am able). it appears only a hebrew grammar
> and one lexicon have survived the move. i do hope the books went with
> the many i gave away and not into the trash somewhere - even then, i
> hope they were not destroyed - but that someone might find them and
> find use.
Well the reason I ask, is because it's not only easier to type, but a
lot easier to read if I can just say:
ברשית ברא אלוהים את השמים ואת הערץ
instead of having to spell it all out in English.
I mean, would that make it easier on you than the way I spelled it out
in the last post?
pablo
yeah, well, transliteration with english letters is easier for me.
not having the fonts available for the hebrew alphabet - i suppose the
harder way is easier for me to read. i had to sound out what you
wrote above, i found myself picturing the transliteration and then the
hebrew. so, one step extra on either side i suppose.
i have been reading this prayer by Jesus in john 17. a little line
that keeps coming to my mind as i read, "in the end is the beginning."
that's a line from a favorite hymn which carries some of the meanings
i am seeing quite dimmly at present.
i quoted something from a song, "we're all heading for mutiny, but
what we really want is unity."
we see the world breaking apart around us daily and throughout history
we see the mutiny coming and happening and racing towards its end
result.
on an more personal level, i am dying. i am. within my members there
is an ongoing and coming mutiny - the flesh will fail me soon enough.
the hunger for unity grows as a true existential hunger. outwardly we
fade away... inwardly...!!!
somehow reading these prayers and declarations (and are they in the
voice of a king, i hear that - but are they in the voice of a prophet,
i hear that too, but are they in the voice of a priest, i hear that
too - the voice of a son, the voice of a faithful one, the voice of my
own heart is somehow being met in these words of Christ.
to know that he has desire - passion - for me to see him in his
glory... there's something about that which echos deep.
i ramble with the partially chewed pieces of this light which is
breaking into my cell through the curtians of scripture... many deep
things are being spoken in this prayer.
thanks for helping me to see the grand scope of these words.
peace.
pablo
John McComb
>>ברשית ברא אלוהים את השמים ואת הערץ
>>
>>instead of having to spell it all out in English.
>>
>>I mean, would that make it easier on you than the way I spelled it out
>>in the last post?
>
>
> yeah, well, transliteration with english letters is easier for me.
> not having the fonts available for the hebrew alphabet - i suppose the
> harder way is easier for me to read. i had to sound out what you
> wrote above, i found myself picturing the transliteration and then the
> hebrew. so, one step extra on either side i suppose.
If you saw the Hebrew script then you have the font installed.
What I want to know, is how on earth did you do this in an
ascii post? What news reader are you using?
Yours in Christ
John
psalmsmith
> psalmsmith <psalm...@ncs.prra.mcom> wrote in message news:<6qZLc.185716$2o2.9...@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
>
>>
>>I mean, would that make it easier on you than the way I spelled it out
>>in the last post?
>
>
> yeah, well, transliteration with english letters is easier for me.
> not having the fonts available for the hebrew alphabet - i suppose the
> harder way is easier for me to read. i had to sound out what you
> wrote above, i found myself picturing the transliteration and then the
> hebrew. so, one step extra on either side i suppose.
No problem transliterating, I just wanted to avoid having to spell out
aleph beth gimel dalet he nun vav &c. When called for, and where
possible.
> i have been reading this prayer by Jesus in john 17. a little line
> that keeps coming to my mind as i read, "in the end is the beginning."
> that's a line from a favorite hymn which carries some of the meanings
> i am seeing quite dimmly at present.
Indeed, in the end we will see the beginning of all things, because we
will have then been centered in eternity, where time is not.
From there, (where there is no time) is where God stood when He made
this universe. From where He stands, time was already ended - before
the first brick was layed.
Therefore we know, that in eternity we will have known, that this
creation has been made completely perfect. And we also know that the
end was known by God - before the first structures were ever established
or the first block was built.
There is a great solice in this, I think. One day we will all stand in
eternity and see how marvellous was the whole of the creation made. And
then (our having been made perfect) we will be able to see it perfectly.
Then will the perfection of the creation become manifest in His Kingdom.
> i quoted something from a song, "we're all heading for mutiny, but
> what we really want is unity."
>
> we see the world breaking apart around us daily and throughout history
> we see the mutiny coming and happening and racing towards its end
> result.
it's reaching towards the shattering point, being stretched over a great
number of deep fractures.
> on an more personal level, i am dying. i am. within my members there
> is an ongoing and coming mutiny - the flesh will fail me soon enough.
> the hunger for unity grows as a true existential hunger. outwardly we
> fade away... inwardly...!!!
wheat emerges from chaff, and the winds of God carry it all away. Flesh
becomes dust, and dissolves into the earth, and life like a field of
grass returns to the soil again. outwardly, there is already nothing
that remains. we have only to be cracked and milled, to shed the chaff
of skin; and in His time, see it broken off and blown away in the wind.
> somehow reading these prayers and declarations (and are they in the
> voice of a king, i hear that - but are they in the voice of a prophet,
> i hear that too, but are they in the voice of a priest, i hear that
> too - the voice of a son, the voice of a faithful one, the voice of my
> own heart is somehow being met in these words of Christ.
>
> to know that he has desire - passion - for me to see him in his
> glory... there's something about that which echos deep.
>
> i ramble with the partially chewed pieces of this light which is
> breaking into my cell through the curtians of scripture... many deep
> things are being spoken in this prayer.
>
> thanks for helping me to see the grand scope of these words.
>
> peace.
> pablo
John presents a deeply faceted Christ, which like a gemstone, glows from
within. It is, I imagine the natural style of the author, which was
then fulfilled by and under the inspiration of God.
Like Matthew presents King of Israel, Mark the King Messiah, Luke the
Savior Messiah, and John the Son of God. Like life is reproduced on
Earth, with 2 strands of DNA, we have the authors heart being joined to
God in the inspiration, and from the marriage of hearts, proceeds the
witness.
John speaks to us in his own voice, as heart-led in the Holy Spirit of
God. It the glorious power of God, to choose four witnesses which taken
together would form His perfect image.
Thank you Pablo, and God bless you. As you have sown peace, so also
will peace be multiplied to you. There will be a season when the angel
of God will throw in the scythe and reap His harvest. May His harvest
of you, be a day of noteworthy peace, and His strength keep you always.
Glen
pablo
i have posed the question or the musing like this: suppose God made a
baseball game? the stands, the teams, the whole event - and this was
the sum of creation. we might find ourselves participating in that
game and God might even communicate with us during regulation play (or
even extra innings).
i like the analogy of baseball - because all of the variables are
there. when the pitcher begins to throw the ball - we do not know
anything about what the outcome of that toss will be. well, the
baseball game was created orderly, so we do know to expect somethings
(otherwise the game could not be played) and we know not to expect
other things (like the ball turning into a giant swann and then flying
away). that's what we love about the game btw, the unknowing and
seeing just how it will play.
we see the game from the game in successive moments as it plays out.
for God the whole view of the game is quite different. no less real -
but quite different.
in the end - yeah, we'll say, "that was a perfect ball game - just the
way it should have been."
of course the metaphor falls apart if stretched too far - but it's an
exercise that often helps me think about the matter of our existence.
>
>
> > i quoted something from a song, "we're all heading for mutiny, but
> > what we really want is unity."
> >
> > we see the world breaking apart around us daily and throughout history
> > we see the mutiny coming and happening and racing towards its end
> > result.
>
> it's reaching towards the shattering point, being stretched over a great
> number of deep fractures.
or it is shattering and we are now perceiving reality through our
perceptions of fractured bits. stumbled upon the rock of offense or
being crushed by said rock.
>
> > on an more personal level, i am dying. i am. within my members there
> > is an ongoing and coming mutiny - the flesh will fail me soon enough.
> > the hunger for unity grows as a true existential hunger. outwardly we
> > fade away... inwardly...!!!
>
> wheat emerges from chaff, and the winds of God carry it all away. Flesh
> becomes dust, and dissolves into the earth, and life like a field of
> grass returns to the soil again. outwardly, there is already nothing
> that remains. we have only to be cracked and milled, to shed the chaff
> of skin; and in His time, see it broken off and blown away in the wind.
like peter said, this present body is a tent designed for folding at
some point. i think we need to be careful here - to remain true to
what God has shown us concerning the temporal body - it too will be
redeemed.
the great theme of the gospel (particularly in the biblical writers
and early church) has always been a restoration (if that's the proper
word) of what has been lost in the garden.
john points to the garden theme often.... and on a side note he also
has allusion to the tower of babel quite often as well - this unify
speach being one of the points where the diffusion and the diaspora of
humanity is set right.
>
> > somehow reading these prayers and declarations (and are they in the
> > voice of a king, i hear that - but are they in the voice of a prophet,
> > i hear that too, but are they in the voice of a priest, i hear that
> > too - the voice of a son, the voice of a faithful one, the voice of my
> > own heart is somehow being met in these words of Christ.
> >
> > to know that he has desire - passion - for me to see him in his
> > glory... there's something about that which echos deep.
> >
> > i ramble with the partially chewed pieces of this light which is
> > breaking into my cell through the curtians of scripture... many deep
> > things are being spoken in this prayer.
> >
> > thanks for helping me to see the grand scope of these words.
> >
> > peace.
> > pablo
>
> John presents a deeply faceted Christ, which like a gemstone, glows from
> within. It is, I imagine the natural style of the author, which was
> then fulfilled by and under the inspiration of God.
i know no other way to see the inspiration of scriptures. when i read
of david writing a song about his personal experiences and yet those
very words become central to the Christ... i can only wonder at the
power of inspiration.
here's another one of amazing proportions. israel's king was God. it
was one of the huge messages of the exodus and the end result. yet,
when israel cried out for a king like other nations God granted them
their king. it was not what God desired - but it was given.
yet, Jesus as king and messiah of david was part of God's plan from
the beginning and we cannot even say, "Jesus Christ," without there
having been a king in israel.
what paul wrote in romans 8:28 is something beyond imagination when we
consider how it works out in real time. such thoughts are too high
for me.
>
> Like Matthew presents King of Israel, Mark the King Messiah, Luke the
> Savior Messiah, and John the Son of God. Like life is reproduced on
> Earth, with 2 strands of DNA, we have the authors heart being joined to
> God in the inspiration, and from the marriage of hearts, proceeds the
> witness.
>
> John speaks to us in his own voice, as heart-led in the Holy Spirit of
> God. It the glorious power of God, to choose four witnesses which taken
> together would form His perfect image.
i have recently learned that the gospels were indeed biographies (of
the style and type of bio's written during their times). and yet,
they do present an amazing image of the one Jesus.
>
>
> Thank you Pablo, and God bless you. As you have sown peace, so also
> will peace be multiplied to you. There will be a season when the angel
> of God will throw in the scythe and reap His harvest. May His harvest
> of you, be a day of noteworthy peace, and His strength keep you always.
>
yeah, i like that... i pray it will be unto me as you have said.
but, should the day require utter turmoil and a long siege - i will it
as well. what else can i do - the peace within a present is enough to
calm the ages - though this world might threaten differently - but
then again, that's one of the reasons we love the game.. er uh.. life.
peace.
pablo
pablo
i sent a reply. but i don't see it?
anyway, i did not see the script in hebrew - and there's no way to
send and receive such in this format.
i could conceive of a way to do it - on my mac with the halime
newsreader which i have... but, it would only work for my reading and
mess up the information once i sent it out again.
so, nope - no way to really do that is ascii.
hope all is well...
this is the second post which hasn't seemed to make it from google...
i don't use my newsreader ever anymore.
peace.
pablo
John McComb
> i sent a reply. but i don't see it?
>
> anyway, i did not see the script in hebrew - and there's no way to
> send and receive such in this format.
>
> i could conceive of a way to do it - on my mac with the halime
> newsreader which i have... but, it would only work for my reading and
> mess up the information once i sent it out again.
>
> so, nope - no way to really do that is ascii.
Oh, o.k. If you want you can probably fetch a Hebrew font
for your mac pretty easily. I did a quick google on
'+"heberw font" +mac' and it retrieved lots of links.
The question was really directed at Psalmsmith. I can't
figure out how he was able to change fonts in he middle
of a post like that. The only way I can do that is using
HTML.
> hope all is well...
Yep, except it's still too hot. And then there's fact
that I sent a rather scornful post to Vera that I'm not
exactly proud of or happy about.
I've got something for both you guys (about numbers) that
I haven't really worked out yet. It was triggered by one
of your posts in this thread a while ago. I can throw you
a little curiosity that popped out while I was thinking
about it, though.
A lot of things we take for granted have their roots in
scriptural things without our being aware of it. For
instance the 360 degrees in a circle is modeled after the
360 prophetic year in the old testament. But did you ever
wonder if the idea for a pair of dice is rooted in the
bible.
Well, maybe not. A cube has six sides so how can it have
anything but six numbers on it. However one pair of dice
makes 12 numbers and the largest throw is 12, the number
of tribes of Israel (tribes of Jacob's sons). The number
of possible outcomes is 11, the same number as the twelve
tribes minus Dan, who seems to have disappeared from
history altogether (Dan is missing in Revelation 7. There
are still 12 tribes but two of them are there as a result
of splitting the tribe of Joseph in two. 13 is also an
important number when discussing this stuff, but I don't
see what 13 has to do with dice). 11 is also the number
of disciples minus Judas. Of the 11 possible outcomes that
you can obtain from the throw of the dice, 7 is the most
probable, the number of completion. The least probable are
2 and 12, two very unstable numbers in scripture.
Just something for you to mull over while you munch on
your pizza pops and catch up on a little Homer Simpson.
Yours in Christ
John
Mordecai!
John McComb wrote:
< clipped >
>
>
> Yep, except it's still too hot. And then there's fact
> that I sent a rather scornful post to Vera that I'm not
> exactly proud of or happy about.
Yeah - know what you mean.
Which is why I have never taken up the role of "majesty" on this NG.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/flame_19.php
Would you like to talk about the role you have assumed?
I sugest you need a sounding board ... and I know what you have done (includign the self loathing except it is
the wrong words- isn't it?) that is associated with the acceptance of your role.
John McComb
No thank you. I haven't assumed any role. And, with
all due respect, you haven't got the foggiest clue
what I have done or what any of this is about.
Yours in Christ
John
Mordecai!
John McComb wrote:
If you say so.
However - I offered. The offer remains open.
>
>
> Yours in Christ
>
> John
psalmsmith
John McComb <Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> wrote:
On the Mac, a free download of Mozilla Thunderbird will do it. On the
PC, I think Outlook will do it.
Hebrew has just as much right to ASCII codes as does Latin, only Latin
got there first so it took up the lower numbers. The Hebrew character
set is up in the high ASCII range.
On a Windows machine, all you should need is your Windows system disk,
go in and do a custom install and pick the Hebrew language pack. Then
you should have all the regular and unicode fonts for any Hebrew enabled
application to be conversant in it, as well as the ability to compose
right-to-left.
After that, it's just a matter of picking the right ASCII encoding. You
are, I am sure, familiar with the Western (ISO 8859-1) ASCII charset; we
also have Hebrew Visual (ISO 8859-8) and Hebrew Logical (ISO 8859-8-l).
Greek chimes in at (ISO 8859-7) and there are a whole host of others.
Unicode stuff is a UTF code rather than an ISO, and not all ISO's are
8859. Japanese, I think, is something like 2022.
It's not that hard of an install, and once the language pack is
installed, I think Outlook can do it, but I know that Windows has a lot
more Hebrew capable news clients than does Mac, (I actually had to work
real hard to find a client that could do it from the Mac, but there are
already plenty of folks out there posting Hebrew from a PC) so you
likely already have a client capable of posting and displaying Hebrew,
in ASCII usenet.
PS - Mozilla Thunderbird is available for the PC as well, and of course,
it's free. 8-)
pablo
> pablo wrote:
> > i sent a reply. but i don't see it?
> >
> > anyway, i did not see the script in hebrew - and there's no way to
> > send and receive such in this format.
> >
> > i could conceive of a way to do it - on my mac with the halime
> > newsreader which i have... but, it would only work for my reading and
> > mess up the information once i sent it out again.
> >
> > so, nope - no way to really do that is ascii.
>
> Oh, o.k. If you want you can probably fetch a Hebrew font
> for your mac pretty easily. I did a quick google on
> '+"heberw font" +mac' and it retrieved lots of links.
yeah, i had the hebrew fonts - but being a computer clean freak - i
zapped them when i was cleaning out useless language files... an 80's
mind with an 04 computer still playing the memory game... well, it's
probably not going to stop me from the habit..
>
> The question was really directed at Psalmsmith. I can't
> figure out how he was able to change fonts in he middle
> of a post like that. The only way I can do that is using
> HTML.
yeah, he's got it down when it comes to using the alternate keyboard
options... he used to do something funky in his nic as well...
>
> > hope all is well...
>
> Yep, except it's still too hot. And then there's fact
> that I sent a rather scornful post to Vera that I'm not
> exactly proud of or happy about.
i haven't read it - might not - i skim for the most part...
>
> I've got something for both you guys (about numbers) that
> I haven't really worked out yet. It was triggered by one
> of your posts in this thread a while ago. I can throw you
> a little curiosity that popped out while I was thinking
> about it, though.
>
> A lot of things we take for granted have their roots in
> scriptural things without our being aware of it. For
> instance the 360 degrees in a circle is modeled after the
> 360 prophetic year in the old testament. But did you ever
> wonder if the idea for a pair of dice is rooted in the
> bible.
like when God took away adam and eve's pair o' dice? groan.
>
> Well, maybe not. A cube has six sides so how can it have
> anything but six numbers on it.
maybe it's cubits - sorry, i recently read some math geeks critique of
the impossiblitiy of the ark's dimensions mathematically...
though linearly thinking you are correct - otherwise it could have six
sets of any variation of numbers (maybe dominos next).
> However one pair of dice
> makes 12 numbers and the largest throw is 12, the number
> of tribes of Israel (tribes of Jacob's sons). The number
> of possible outcomes is 11, the same number as the twelve
> tribes minus Dan, who seems to have disappeared from
> history altogether (Dan is missing in Revelation 7. There
> are still 12 tribes but two of them are there as a result
> of splitting the tribe of Joseph in two. 13 is also an
> important number when discussing this stuff, but I don't
> see what 13 has to do with dice). 11 is also the number
> of disciples minus Judas. Of the 11 possible outcomes that
> you can obtain from the throw of the dice, 7 is the most
> probable, the number of completion. The least probable are
> 2 and 12, two very unstable numbers in scripture.
it is interesting - i'll have to head over to the casino and
experiment. though, there is also the connection between dice and
praying... many rolls of the dice are accompanied by prayers (of a
sort).
>
> Just something for you to mull over while you munch on
> your pizza pops and catch up on a little Homer Simpson.
>
pizza pops? do they make such? and of course - you know me too well
when it comes to my tv viewing... what with no joss whedon shows on
anymore.... reference to an earlier post.
now, yahtzee is going to mess the whole dice thing up a bit...
backgammon has something in addition to the die.
i am certain it's some babylonian evil influence on the church - that
plus sunday school and offering plates (or bags, or boxes).
peace.
pablo
John McComb
> It's not that hard of an install, and once the language pack is
> installed, I think Outlook can do it, but I know that Windows has a lot
> more Hebrew capable news clients than does Mac, (I actually had to work
> real hard to find a client that could do it from the Mac, but there are
> already plenty of folks out there posting Hebrew from a PC) so you
> likely already have a client capable of posting and displaying Hebrew,
> in ASCII usenet.
I already have Hebrew fonts installed on my machine.
I'm not sure where they came from but they are there.
I was able to see the Hebrew script you posted fine.
What I don't understand is how you managed to change
fonts in the middle of a post. I've tried doing that
with greek fonts and I've never been able to manage
it.
Yours in Christ
John
psalmsmith
Well, it's not really about changing fonts, it's about using the
encoding, and how any characters that don't fit in the selected encoding
will default back to Western.
For instance, you can see in the headers for this post that the whole
thing is posted in Greek encoding (ISO 8859-7). Therefore, any
characters that occur in the range of the Greek charset will be
displayed in Greek. Any that do not fall into that range will be
decoded according to the default Western style.
εν αρχε ην ο λογος
It's not that I changed fonts in any way, I just listed this post as
being "Greek encoded" and so happened to only post 14 characters that
fall into the "high ASCII" range to get displayed as Greek.
Your own usenet client does the 'font changing' when you specify which
fonts to use for what encodings.
Shalom aleichem,
Glen
John McComb
Ah, I get it, I get it. Now I can write my wave equation.
h²/2m*Δ²ψ +Vψ = ιh*δψ/δt
This is great. I can even cut and paste from my greek
new testament. Thanks Glenn.
ει?ρηνη υ?μι?ν and God Bless
Yours in Christ
John
John McComb
Oops. Wonder what happened there. No punctuation allowed
I guess. Oh well, just keep practicing, I guess.
Yours in Christ
John
John McComb
> yeah, i had the hebrew fonts - but being a computer clean freak - i
> zapped them when i was cleaning out useless language files... an 80's
> mind with an 04 computer still playing the memory game... well, it's
> probably not going to stop me from the habit..
You can have mine. I don't really need them. I'll
telepathically astro travel them your way in the
morning. Point your antennae north west.
>>Yep, except it's still too hot. And then there's fact
>>that I sent a rather scornful post to Vera that I'm not
>>exactly proud of or happy about.
>
> i haven't read it - might not - i skim for the most part...
I don't suppose it matters much if you do or you
don't. I've tried using google as a news reader in
the past and found that I missed a lot by doing so.
All you see in the startup screen is the last post
in each thread.
> like when God took away adam and eve's pair o' dice? groan.
Yes, I agree, groan. Let's be serious now.
Weren't you chewing me out earlier for tormenting
you with a bad pun?
>>Well, maybe not. A cube has six sides so how can it have
>>anything but six numbers on it.
>
> maybe it's cubits - sorry, i recently read some math geeks critique of
> the impossiblitiy of the ark's dimensions mathematically...
Some people have too much time on their hands. I was
told by a university colleague once that someone,
somewhere had worked out that, in a dry dessert climate,
the dimensions and materials laid out for the arc of the
covenant would lead to the construction of a very large
capacitor that would be deadly to the touch under normal
circumstances. Chew on that for a while (after you've
finished your pizza pop, that is).
> though linearly thinking you are correct - otherwise it could have six
> sets of any variation of numbers (maybe dominos next).
Well, if you're going to be like that, then I will
counter that it contains six sets of groupings of
'dots' of varying counts and configurations. Back
to you.
> it is interesting - i'll have to head over to the casino and
> experiment. though, there is also the connection between dice and
> praying... many rolls of the dice are accompanied by prayers (of a
> sort).
Interesting yes. But not useful so far. I'm trying to
manipulate it all into a valid excuse for those Sunday
morning 'Risk' games when I really should have been in
church.
Yours in Christ
John
Pastor Dave
Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:49:42 GMT, John McComb
<Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> screamed out:
>> maybe it's cubits - sorry, i recently read some math geeks critique of
>> the impossiblitiy of the ark's dimensions mathematically...
>
>Some people have too much time on their hands. I was
>told by a university colleague once that someone,
>somewhere had worked out that, in a dry dessert climate,
>the dimensions and materials laid out for the arc of the
>covenant would lead to the construction of a very large
>capacitor that would be deadly to the touch under normal
>circumstances. Chew on that for a while (after you've
>finished your pizza pop, that is).
And some people think God isn't smart. :)
--
ą Pastor Dave Raymond ą
"As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor
to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day;
thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right
before thee." - Jeremiah 17:16
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
"The religion that does not begin at home,
does not begin" - Adrian Rogers
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
psalmsmith
I can see the equation fine, but the Greek is a little garbled.
In my own experience, perhaps this will help, I have never had any luck
with copy and paste for doing this, but then probably that's because my
Bible software uses it's own fonts.
Copy-paste does work for me if I type out the Greek or Hebrew in another
APP and them paste it into my usenet client though.
John McComb
>>> ει?ρηνη υ?μι?ν and God Bless
>>
>>
>>
>> Oops. Wonder what happened there. No punctuation allowed
>> I guess. Oh well, just keep practicing, I guess.
>>
>> Yours in Christ
>>
>> John
>>
>
> I can see the equation fine, but the Greek is a little garbled.
> In my own experience, perhaps this will help, I have never had any luck
> with copy and paste for doing this, but then probably that's because my
> Bible software uses it's own fonts.
>
> Copy-paste does work for me if I type out the Greek or Hebrew in another
> APP and them paste it into my usenet client though.
I think it's o.k. At least when I look at it it is. It's just
that the bible text has accents, circumflexes and such that are
being translated into question marks. They probably exceed the
range of the Greek character set. It does look a bit limited.
Also, the epsilon and the iota both look a little unrealistic
to me. But if you look closely you can tell that they are indeed
epsilon and iota.
Yours in Christ
John
pablo
> pablo wrote:
>
> > yeah, i had the hebrew fonts - but being a computer clean freak - i
> > zapped them when i was cleaning out useless language files... an 80's
> > mind with an 04 computer still playing the memory game... well, it's
> > probably not going to stop me from the habit..
>
> You can have mine. I don't really need them. I'll
> telepathically astro travel them your way in the
> morning. Point your antennae north west.
my antennae? have you seen a picture of me or something? oh my
aching thorax.
>
> >>Yep, except it's still too hot. And then there's fact
> >>that I sent a rather scornful post to Vera that I'm not
> >>exactly proud of or happy about.
> >
> > i haven't read it - might not - i skim for the most part...
>
> I don't suppose it matters much if you do or you
> don't. I've tried using google as a news reader in
> the past and found that I missed a lot by doing so.
> All you see in the startup screen is the last post
> in each thread.
oh, i skim or browse a bit deeper than that - opening up the threads
and scanning/reading the posts within. i like the delay - and this
newsgroup thing can become addictive - time consuming - and when
heated - just too darn much trouble... so, i enjoy not being able to
see the instant response or the lure of getting into a "chat via
usenet" session. this way, i can pop in and pop out usually at the
same times each day and play along.
>
> > like when God took away adam and eve's pair o' dice? groan.
>
> Yes, I agree, groan. Let's be serious now.
>
> Weren't you chewing me out earlier for tormenting
> you with a bad pun?
so you are going to punish me in kind?
btw, what is a "good pun"?
>
> >>Well, maybe not. A cube has six sides so how can it have
> >>anything but six numbers on it.
> >
> > maybe it's cubits - sorry, i recently read some math geeks critique of
> > the impossiblitiy of the ark's dimensions mathematically...
>
> Some people have too much time on their hands. I was
> told by a university colleague once that someone,
> somewhere had worked out that, in a dry dessert climate,
> the dimensions and materials laid out for the arc of the
> covenant would lead to the construction of a very large
> capacitor that would be deadly to the touch under normal
> circumstances. Chew on that for a while (after you've
> finished your pizza pop, that is).
that's an old study - i think, per my memory, that there was some
merit to it... but, then again - another good search via the internet
has begun... i think i'll skip google and try iboogie for that one.
my memory is jogged a bit - though i think the source of this will be
found among some k00ks. the google search i suspect that will turn up
the answers will be on these key words: erich von daniken ark of the
covenant
>
> > though linearly thinking you are correct - otherwise it could have six
> > sets of any variation of numbers (maybe dominos next).
>
> Well, if you're going to be like that, then I will
> counter that it contains six sets of groupings of
> 'dots' of varying counts and configurations. Back
> to you.
ok you win... i don't want to get into the whole "dot" vs "non-dot"
existential debate.
>
> > it is interesting - i'll have to head over to the casino and
> > experiment. though, there is also the connection between dice and
> > praying... many rolls of the dice are accompanied by prayers (of a
> > sort).
>
> Interesting yes. But not useful so far. I'm trying to
> manipulate it all into a valid excuse for those Sunday
> morning 'Risk' games when I really should have been in
> church.
>
but, world domination is so appealing... and all in one board game.
have a great first of the week.
peace.
pablo
is it still hot up your way?
Christine
"pablo" <rab...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5203610b.04072...@posting.google.com...
> John McComb <Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> wrote in message
news:<ahTMc.117182$eO.51229@edtnps89>...
> > pablo wrote:
> >
>
> oh, i skim or browse a bit deeper than that - opening up the threads
> and scanning/reading the posts within. i like the delay - and this
> newsgroup thing can become addictive - time consuming - and when
> heated - just too darn much trouble...all in one board game.
hah the only time this ng has anything happening is when it is heated!!!'
give over!! its why you always came...seriously tho' this stuff is life and
death <gasp>
we simply do not know how many soul's salvation hinge upon whether or not to
allow women to teach alpha...!!!!
someone should warn Europe and N America of this fierce victory on Satan's
side!!!!
sigh I don't know why we all just don't err on the side of caution and say
only bake sales---that would sound so very much like the clear instruction
of God
thumb twiddling but you know I jest of course
oh sorry talking about me again
bye
oh la de dahhhhhh
In Christ
Christine
John McComb
> my antennae? have you seen a picture of me or something? oh my
> aching thorax.
Ah! Oh, Pablo, you despicably funny guy. You've injured
me again.
Yes I have seen your picture, as a matter of fact. You and
your lovely wife on Vera's web page. You look a lot like
an old friend of mine from my post office days. You and
he are not alike though. He was one of the most hedonistic
people I ever knew. Still, I have a soft spot for the guy.
I haven't seen him since long before I shook the cobwebs
out of my brain and decided that it was high time I came
to terms with my faith and started living like a Christian.
> oh, i skim or browse a bit deeper than that - opening up the threads
> and scanning/reading the posts within. i like the delay - and this
> newsgroup thing can become addictive - time consuming - and when
> heated - just too darn much trouble... so, i enjoy not being able to
> see the instant response or the lure of getting into a "chat via
> usenet" session. this way, i can pop in and pop out usually at the
> same times each day and play along.
Yea, this newsgroup is your playground, isn't it? I
admire the way you can play it in such an aloof way.
I find myself stifling sarcastic and mean spirited
posts all the time.
>>>like when God took away adam and eve's pair o' dice? groan.
>>
>>Yes, I agree, groan. Let's be serious now.
>>
>>Weren't you chewing me out earlier for tormenting
>>you with a bad pun?
> so you are going to punish me in kind?
>
> btw, what is a "good pun"?
It's when you have a talk with a group of Italians about
spreading innuendo and they think you're going to
distribute a box of suppositories.
> that's an old study - i think, per my memory, that there was some
> merit to it... but, then again - another good search via the internet
> has begun... i think i'll skip google and try iboogie for that one.
>
> my memory is jogged a bit - though i think the source of this will be
> found among some k00ks. the google search i suspect that will turn up
> the answers will be on these key words: erich von daniken ark of the
> covenant
Von Daniken???!!! Say it aint so. I spent way too much
time arguing with people about that nutbar in the 70's
I've mussed about this a lot in the past. I don't know
if it's possible to build a capacitor out of a large
box (it doesn't seem plausible). However, if I were
going to try it I think a gilded wood box with to
large golden angels on top might do the trick. If Von
Daniken is behind this rumor it's no wonder I get
funny looks when I tell people about it. "It's just a
curiosity, what's your problem".
> ok you win... i don't want to get into the whole "dot" vs "non-dot"
> existential debate.
If a pair of dice drops in the forest and nobody is
around to see what comes up, who wins the money on the
table?
> but, world domination is so appealing... and all in one board game.
>
> have a great first of the week.
Thanks, I will. You too. And, yes it's still hot. We
got a thunderstorm tonight though, so it's cool as I
type. God Bless.
Yours in Christ
John
Christine
......
> Yea, this newsgroup is your playground, isn't it? I
> admire the way you can play it in such an aloof way.
> I find myself stifling sarcastic and mean spirited
> posts all the time.
>
...
well ok now everyone John is an honest person....
delicately ,
In Christ
Christine
(lace, doily?addingly -----hyuck hyuck hyuck)
psalmsmith
> hi, sorry about the lack of trimming etc. two comments burried below.
> thanks for all the thoughts... if there's something important that i
> miss - please just bring it up.
No worries, but the idea that anything I say might be important kinda
strikes me as funny. heh. I'll be splitting this one in two...
> psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
news:<psalmsmith-FCD43...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...
>>
<-/->
>>I think if it weren't for the destructive legalism of so many
>>'damning-shabbatizers' I think would have been able to much more
>>effectively share a love of God's feasts with others in this place.
>
>
>
> i want to hear this - but i would only listen if you gave it in
> smaller chunks... maybe even beginning with the list and blurb method
> you have used below.
The...seven feasts laid out originally in Leviticus 23 are a kind of
prophetic timetable for the major messianic events as seen from our
universe.
The first feast, is the feast of unleavened bread, or Hag haMatzot.
This one lasts a full week long, and actually /contains/ the Passover.
Hmm, rather than trying to spell all this out, and failing to achieve
the level of accuracy I intend, let me instead post a link to the place
where I usually get this info from, and following that I'll be glad to
address anything still hanging out there.
Skim over this link, and let me know about any points you'd like further
elucidation on.
http://www.shalom-crmi.org/html/seventoc.html
> please begin this post - and possibly some more on the festivals.
Oh, you mean about the 'damning-shabbatizers' as I called them. Well,
these are the misguided folks who rant on about how if we don't keep the
seventh day in the exact manner of modern Jews, then we are all
consigned to hell.
I mean, this notion is a misunderstanding on top of a misinterpretation
inside of a misconception.
Believe it or not, I agree that Christians should keep the Saturday
Sabbath. Further and perhaps even more unbelievable, I believe that
most Christians already DO keep it and don't even know it.
Nowhere does it require anybody except Abrahamic covenant Jews to gather
together on the Shabbat, the day is specified as a day of /rest/, not of
gathering.
I think it is right for us to go to church on Sundays, but I also think
we should be resting on Saturday, with devotions to God.
The problem is, this is not a /legal/ issue. It is a "what is best for
us" issue, and all the legalism crowd accomplishes by their "sabbath or
damnation" ranting is to prevent those of us who feel this way from
effectively discussing the issue.
> i know what you mean about holding back for certain reasons. but one
> we often miss is that it takes so much space to tell and we want to
> tell it right when we try.
Indeed. and who really reads a 500 line post anyway?
In this case, usenet has been /so/ flooded with these sabbath legalists,
that it is likely at my first mention of a "Saturday Sabbath" the
haunches go up, the blocks come down, and most everybody assumes I'm one
of the legalists.
But because I know it isn't a 'legal' issue, I instead 'just don't go
there' as it seems even if I try to present a right view, that my
efforts would be misinterpreted on account of the folks out there crying
"Saturday Church or go to hell!"
> but, huge isn't good in usenet. at least, my mind turns to rubber -
> even when reading this thread we've constructed here...
>
> i would love to hear more - would love to hear it from you. just in
> bite sized pieces if at all possible.
Well, on the issue of the seven feasts, Eddie Chumney (at the link
above) has spelled it our more effectively than I. Best bet, I think,
is to glance over that website and let me know what catches your eyes.
It's...a bit long, so I expect some time to pass. It's pretty easy to
just skim to the important bits, however, which is why I posted the link.
You can go into each of the feasts starting with the Passover, and
scroll until you see the phrase "Messianic Fulfillment" which will show
up several times in each feast/chapter...but it is in bold & italics
which makes it easy to scroll to. The Fall feasts say "Messianic
Understanding" instead, I believe.
> you don't have to - but i'd love to see more.
>
> peace.
> pablo
Be glad to help, tho the question leaves me searching for what to say,
really. The subject is very broad, and even a superficial treatment
would take hundreds of lines.
If you could, point me towards something specific and let me see if I
can treat it briefly.
pablo
> pablo wrote:
>
> > my antennae? have you seen a picture of me or something? oh my
> > aching thorax.
>
> Ah! Oh, Pablo, you despicably funny guy. You've injured
> me again.
touche! once an old roommate and i were watching the old batman tv
series (a daily ritual). if you recall, during fights they flashed
words like, "bam" and "pow" and "boof" across the screen - to hide,
highlight or comic book up the action (take yer pick).
so, during a fight scene with the riddler (a fav) the word, "touche"
flashed across the screen.
i looked at my roomie and said, "touchie???"
and he corrected me, "tooshie!"
both seemed puzzling to us.
about 10 mins later it we both said at the same time, "touche!"
there was much satisfaction in the house at that moment.
>
> Yes I have seen your picture, as a matter of fact. You and
> your lovely wife on Vera's web page. You look a lot like
> an old friend of mine from my post office days. You and
> he are not alike though. He was one of the most hedonistic
> people I ever knew. Still, I have a soft spot for the guy.
> I haven't seen him since long before I shook the cobwebs
> out of my brain and decided that it was high time I came
> to terms with my faith and started living like a Christian.
ah, you've found me out - the christian hedonist. now about those
cobwebs....
>
> > oh, i skim or browse a bit deeper than that - opening up the threads
> > and scanning/reading the posts within. i like the delay - and this
> > newsgroup thing can become addictive - time consuming - and when
> > heated - just too darn much trouble... so, i enjoy not being able to
> > see the instant response or the lure of getting into a "chat via
> > usenet" session. this way, i can pop in and pop out usually at the
> > same times each day and play along.
>
> Yea, this newsgroup is your playground, isn't it? I
> admire the way you can play it in such an aloof way.
> I find myself stifling sarcastic and mean spirited
> posts all the time.
well, now i feel bad - aloof? maybe distracted, or composing myself
with an air of superiority, or maybe i am hoping to make a wise use of
my time, or maybe i am simply aloof...
i know what you mean though. at some level this has to fit into the
hobby category of activities. i don't even mean by that - that
newsgroup participation isn't fellowship or that a person couldn't
know that they are called to be present or even view this as a part of
their ministry. i am not speaking to the motivation or purpose when i
suggest it is a hobby - only that as a category of activities of life
- IMO - this fits more squarely into the hobby cat.
i've played sports in the past as a direct leading from God to be a
part of a team and to invest my life and time in being light in such
an activity. to me, the matter was deadly serious on a level - but it
still was a sport.
the same with the book club, or the local bar, or any number of
community gathering places - a great deal of great stuff happens and
my time there is important to me. but, i try not to elevate my
definition of the activity beyond what it truly is.
plus, i tend to follow the maxim: if something exists in a limited
supply, then it must be used in as most efficient and effective means
as possible.
i am that "something" in this case. newsgroups happen to be a part of
the pie of activities - so i can only give so much towards this.
or it's just my playground. btw, i like the playground - catch me on
the monkey bars.
odd random thought about why people like the word monkey. it's one of
those few animal names that already comes, "kiddie styled." doggy,
kitty, puppy, horsey, etc. all are words that have to be morphed - but
monkey comes kiddie styled right out of the wrapper.
>
>
> >>>like when God took away adam and eve's pair o' dice? groan.
> >>
> >>Yes, I agree, groan. Let's be serious now.
> >>
> >>Weren't you chewing me out earlier for tormenting
> >>you with a bad pun?
> > so you are going to punish me in kind?
> >
> > btw, what is a "good pun"?
>
> It's when you have a talk with a group of Italians about
> spreading innuendo and they think you're going to
> distribute a box of suppositories.
it has another meaning?
>
> > that's an old study - i think, per my memory, that there was some
> > merit to it... but, then again - another good search via the internet
> > has begun... i think i'll skip google and try iboogie for that one.
> >
> > my memory is jogged a bit - though i think the source of this will be
> > found among some k00ks. the google search i suspect that will turn up
> > the answers will be on these key words: erich von daniken ark of the
> > covenant
>
> Von Daniken???!!! Say it aint so. I spent way too much
> time arguing with people about that nutbar in the 70's
>
> I've mussed about this a lot in the past. I don't know
> if it's possible to build a capacitor out of a large
> box (it doesn't seem plausible). However, if I were
> going to try it I think a gilded wood box with to
> large golden angels on top might do the trick. If Von
> Daniken is behind this rumor it's no wonder I get
> funny looks when I tell people about it. "It's just a
> curiosity, what's your problem".
i forgot to iboogie it (btw, it's a cool search engine) but, yeah von
daniken is the source. he claimed that a college study in michigan
made a model of the ark and it produced electricity. i have carried
that bit of lore around for years - thinking that it had actually been
done. when questioned vd said that it was actually a high school in
michigan. so far, i've found no proof that the experiment ever
existed except in the outspace of daniken's mind.
>
> > ok you win... i don't want to get into the whole "dot" vs "non-dot"
> > existential debate.
>
> If a pair of dice drops in the forest and nobody is
> around to see what comes up, who wins the money on the
> table?
umm, we'll have to settle this the old fashion way... me, i win.
>
> > but, world domination is so appealing... and all in one board game.
> >
> > have a great first of the week.
>
> Thanks, I will. You too. And, yes it's still hot. We
> got a thunderstorm tonight though, so it's cool as I
> type. God Bless.
>
we are surprisingly cool this morning. that won't last - but it's
nice.
peace.
pablo
pablo
english and japanese...
i feel kinda stupid.
thanks.
pablo
psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message news:<psalmsmith-1EB9F...@news1-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...
John McComb
> touche! once an old roommate and i were watching the old batman tv
> series (a daily ritual). if you recall, during fights they flashed
> words like, "bam" and "pow" and "boof" across the screen - to hide,
> highlight or comic book up the action (take yer pick).
>
> so, during a fight scene with the riddler (a fav) the word, "touche"
> flashed across the screen.
>
> i looked at my roomie and said, "touchie???"
>
> and he corrected me, "tooshie!"
>
> both seemed puzzling to us.
>
> about 10 mins later it we both said at the same time, "touche!"
>
> there was much satisfaction in the house at that moment.
Ah yes, Adam West and Burt Ward, two giants of the great
American artistic tradition. You two must have been doing
research for your doctoral dissertation.
Actually your roommate was correct. 'Tooshie' is the
correct rendering of the phrase. As in, "holy humongous
hindquarters, Batman!". One must always remember that
french is never used. If it were then you would see
"la bam" or "le pow" or "vous avez mange la biff".
> well, now i feel bad - aloof? maybe distracted, or composing myself
> with an air of superiority, or maybe i am hoping to make a wise use of
> my time, or maybe i am simply aloof...
>
> i know what you mean though. at some level this has to fit into the
> hobby category of activities. i don't even mean by that - that
> newsgroup participation isn't fellowship or that a person couldn't
> know that they are called to be present or even view this as a part of
> their ministry. i am not speaking to the motivation or purpose when i
> suggest it is a hobby - only that as a category of activities of life
> - IMO - this fits more squarely into the hobby cat.
What else can it be? It never ceases to amaze me how
many people come to these groups thinking that they
are going to be teachers. "Gather around people and
listen carefully while I explain to you everything
that is wrong with your faith and show you exactly
why you are on the highway to hell". Yea, right. Get
in line there buddy. The end of the line is where the
legalist, the universalist and the anti-trinity nut
are all standing around arguing with each other.
> i've played sports in the past as a direct leading from God to be a
> part of a team and to invest my life and time in being light in such
> an activity. to me, the matter was deadly serious on a level - but it
> still was a sport.
>
> the same with the book club, or the local bar, or any number of
> community gathering places - a great deal of great stuff happens and
> my time there is important to me. but, i try not to elevate my
> definition of the activity beyond what it truly is.
>
> plus, i tend to follow the maxim: if something exists in a limited
> supply, then it must be used in as most efficient and effective means
> as possible.
>
> i am that "something" in this case. newsgroups happen to be a part of
> the pie of activities - so i can only give so much towards this.
>
> or it's just my playground. btw, i like the playground - catch me on
> the monkey bars.
Well maybe that's it. Pablo is the kid that actually
makes use of all of the playground contraptions.
Everybody else is standing around the tether ball pole
jockeying for a turn.
> odd random thought about why people like the word monkey. it's one of
> those few animal names that already comes, "kiddie styled." doggy,
> kitty, puppy, horsey, etc. all are words that have to be morphed - but
> monkey comes kiddie styled right out of the wrapper.
What about 'purple'. Say it ten times real fast. It's
a ridiculous word, but a great one nevertheless. Kids
things are never violet. They're always purple.
> i forgot to iboogie it (btw, it's a cool search engine) but, yeah von
> daniken is the source. he claimed that a college study in michigan
> made a model of the ark and it produced electricity. i have carried
> that bit of lore around for years - thinking that it had actually been
> done. when questioned vd said that it was actually a high school in
> michigan. so far, i've found no proof that the experiment ever
> existed except in the outspace of daniken's mind.
I wonder where that high school got all the gold.
Yours in Christ
John
pablo
> "pablo" <rab...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5203610b.04072...@posting.google.com...
> > John McComb <Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> wrote in message
> news:<ahTMc.117182$eO.51229@edtnps89>...
> > > pablo wrote:
> > >
>
> >
> > oh, i skim or browse a bit deeper than that - opening up the threads
> > and scanning/reading the posts within. i like the delay - and this
> > newsgroup thing can become addictive - time consuming - and when
> > heated - just too darn much trouble...all in one board game.
>
hi christine. clever elipsis - pretty funny.
how are things way up north? if you recall, there's no hockey
happiness for either one of us - :-( but, we will live.
>
> hah the only time this ng has anything happening is when it is heated!!!'
>
>
> give over!! its why you always came...seriously tho' this stuff is life and
> death <gasp>
>
yeah, there's some saying that ends with, "... get out of the
kitchen." i would, but i like the ice cream and that's where they
keep it.
i pray all is well up your way.
peace.
pablo
pablo
> pablo wrote:
>
> > hi, sorry about the lack of trimming etc. two comments burried below.
> > thanks for all the thoughts... if there's something important that i
> > miss - please just bring it up.
>
> No worries, but the idea that anything I say might be important kinda
> strikes me as funny. heh. I'll be splitting this one in two...
well, "important," in the sense that you wanted to dig into a certain
point or idea which i did not address. btw, it's important to me when
anyone interacts with me - no matter the interaction.... that doesn't
mean that i stop and engage the dude who flipped me a bird on the road
- but i do try to pause and pray (after expressing my anger or reply
in kind).
>
> > psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
> news:<psalmsmith-FCD43...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...
> >>
>
> <-/->
>
> >>I think if it weren't for the destructive legalism of so many
> >>'damning-shabbatizers' I think would have been able to much more
> >>effectively share a love of God's feasts with others in this place.
> >
> >
> >
> > i want to hear this - but i would only listen if you gave it in
> > smaller chunks... maybe even beginning with the list and blurb method
> > you have used below.
>
> The...seven feasts laid out originally in Leviticus 23 are a kind of
> prophetic timetable for the major messianic events as seen from our
> universe.
>
> The first feast, is the feast of unleavened bread, or Hag haMatzot.
> This one lasts a full week long, and actually /contains/ the Passover.
>
> Hmm, rather than trying to spell all this out, and failing to achieve
> the level of accuracy I intend, let me instead post a link to the place
> where I usually get this info from, and following that I'll be glad to
> address anything still hanging out there.
>
> Skim over this link, and let me know about any points you'd like further
> elucidation on.
>
> http://www.shalom-crmi.org/html/seventoc.html
thanks, i will take some time and read it.... then i'll get back.
looks interesting.
>
> > please begin this post - and possibly some more on the festivals.
>
> Oh, you mean about the 'damning-shabbatizers' as I called them. Well,
> these are the misguided folks who rant on about how if we don't keep the
> seventh day in the exact manner of modern Jews, then we are all
> consigned to hell.
i had more the festivals in mind - but yeah, this is part of what i
wanted to discuss as well...
>
> I mean, this notion is a misunderstanding on top of a misinterpretation
> inside of a misconception.
>
> Believe it or not, I agree that Christians should keep the Saturday
> Sabbath. Further and perhaps even more unbelievable, I believe that
> most Christians already DO keep it and don't even know it.
>
> Nowhere does it require anybody except Abrahamic covenant Jews to gather
> together on the Shabbat, the day is specified as a day of /rest/, not of
> gathering.
>
> I think it is right for us to go to church on Sundays, but I also think
> we should be resting on Saturday, with devotions to God.
i agree, no real problem here with the sabbath. i am even more slack
in my present understanding - in that i hold the principle of rest one
day in seven or six days shall thou labor...
seeking the principle over the precept or the spirit of the law over
the letter.
although sunday is not the sabbath - i did grow up in a time when
sundays were set apart for worship. in rural areas wednesdays were
the day of rest - because saturday was market day.
>
> The problem is, this is not a /legal/ issue. It is a "what is best for
> us" issue, and all the legalism crowd accomplishes by their "sabbath or
> damnation" ranting is to prevent those of us who feel this way from
> effectively discussing the issue.
there's the line... it's like paul mentioning the commandment with a
promise ... children honor your father and your mother. it is on the
same plane. we don't hear a great many people shouting - "honor your
father and mother or your going to hell."
i think this plays back to how we have read the gospel purely in the
legal sense. it's there (the legal dimension) and very central - but
it is not the sum of the gospel... the new testament writers make it
quite plain that "a new creation" is happening - a restoration or
reversal of the fall.
the gospel, in its content, is a much fuller orbed statement than
simply the legal aspect.
last month i spent sometime comparing peter and paul's preaching to
jewish people and gentile groups. one note i found interesting was
that the legal aspects and concepts of atonement were not spelled out
to jewish audiences. i tend to go with the position of most scholars
on that one - it didn't need to be spelled out - it was self evident.
>
> > i know what you mean about holding back for certain reasons. but one
> > we often miss is that it takes so much space to tell and we want to
> > tell it right when we try.
>
> Indeed. and who really reads a 500 line post anyway?
>
> In this case, usenet has been /so/ flooded with these sabbath legalists,
> that it is likely at my first mention of a "Saturday Sabbath" the
> haunches go up, the blocks come down, and most everybody assumes I'm one
> of the legalists.
>
> But because I know it isn't a 'legal' issue, I instead 'just don't go
> there' as it seems even if I try to present a right view, that my
> efforts would be misinterpreted on account of the folks out there crying
> "Saturday Church or go to hell!"
yeah, i tried to go through the 10 commandments once or twice and it
just doesn't get as much play unless one is telling others how wrong
they are.
but, the rub, as far as i see it has more to do with the last part of
that sentence, "...or go to hell." it has always been sad to me that
a healthy discussion of the sabbath is difficult to near impossible in
these forums. there's so much which should be discussed and which is
wonderful.
it's along the legalistic line that the issue breaks - or along the
libertine line on the other side.
i personally would love to live in a sabbath honoring culture. like
you say, the majority of us actually do practice sabbath day rest in
some measure already (not to be confused with the image of sabbath
rest presented in hebrews).
>
> > but, huge isn't good in usenet. at least, my mind turns to rubber -
> > even when reading this thread we've constructed here...
> >
> > i would love to hear more - would love to hear it from you. just in
> > bite sized pieces if at all possible.
>
> Well, on the issue of the seven feasts, Eddie Chumney (at the link
> above) has spelled it our more effectively than I. Best bet, I think,
> is to glance over that website and let me know what catches your eyes.
>
> It's...a bit long, so I expect some time to pass. It's pretty easy to
> just skim to the important bits, however, which is why I posted the link.
>
> You can go into each of the feasts starting with the Passover, and
> scroll until you see the phrase "Messianic Fulfillment" which will show
> up several times in each feast/chapter...but it is in bold & italics
> which makes it easy to scroll to. The Fall feasts say "Messianic
> Understanding" instead, I believe.
again, thanks for the link - it's bookmarked and i will bring
something back from my journey there.
>
> > you don't have to - but i'd love to see more.
> >
> > peace.
> > pablo
>
>
> Be glad to help, tho the question leaves me searching for what to say,
> really. The subject is very broad, and even a superficial treatment
> would take hundreds of lines.
>
> If you could, point me towards something specific and let me see if I
> can treat it briefly.
i suppose i was looking for a linear blurb on the feasts and their
relation to the plan of God. i know, still too huge a topic.
i'll read and reply soon - hopefully soon.
peace.
pablo
p.s. had a wonderful time of worship today reflecting on the seven
expressions of power in john... thanks for highlighting that for me.
psalmsmith
rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
> psalmsmith <psalm...@ncs.prra.mcom> wrote in message
> news:<Uv2Nc.214447$2o2.10...@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
> >
> > But because I know it isn't a 'legal' issue, I instead 'just don't go
> > there' as it seems even if I try to present a right view, that my
> > efforts would be misinterpreted on account of the folks out there crying
> > "Saturday Church or go to hell!"
>
> yeah, i tried to go through the 10 commandments once or twice and it
> just doesn't get as much play unless one is telling others how wrong
> they are.
>
> but, the rub, as far as i see it has more to do with the last part of
> that sentence, "...or go to hell." it has always been sad to me that
> a healthy discussion of the sabbath is difficult to near impossible in
> these forums. there's so much which should be discussed and which is
> wonderful.
Some topics have gotten 'owned' by the rock-throwers; which is which I
always liked the idea of using peer pressure to keep the rock-throwers
out.
Whatever you think you can come into my house, just leave the bag of
rocks outside please.
> it's along the legalistic line that the issue breaks - or along the
> libertine line on the other side.
to me it's more like a seed one can sow to produce something in thier
lives. You don't have to take time out to rest and watch God's glory
unfold but..... if you don't want to ya gotta wonder right?
The seed sown, will produce the peace of God in your life.
Now this much can be on any day of the week, of course.
> i personally would love to live in a sabbath honoring culture. like
> you say, the majority of us actually do practice sabbath day rest in
> some measure already (not to be confused with the image of sabbath
> rest presented in hebrews).
but this much is where it gets 'seventh-dayish'
Now, I think of it as a cause/effect relationship; and the grand result
of "sabbath-keeping' is Shavuot (feast of Weeks - Pentecost).
It is a setting apart of time, and if you look at the feast of Weeks,
God spends almost two months pounding "SEVEN" into the heads of the
Israelites.
And then on the last (convergence) of patterns of seven comes the
highest sabbath (sanctified, set apart time) /Shavuot/ called Pentecost.
or the feast of weeks.
It's on this day Jewish oral law says God gave Torah to Moses, and
likewise on this day the Holy Spirit came to inhabit the hearts of man.
Be sure to look at 'counting the omer' in this section too, because God
had the Israelites counting off every day in seven sets of sevens until
the end, and then the Sabbath. Historicly, that's when all heaven
breaks loose.
>
>
> p.s. had a wonderful time of worship today reflecting on the seven
> expressions of power in john... thanks for highlighting that for me.
I really need to do a study on linking the miracles and /ego eimi/'s of
John. I think, when you put them together there....is a kind of magic.
I mean, I hate the vernacular, but it really does describe it -- i don't
mean to invoke pagan rites here, or sleight of hand.
It's like things become....charged. thoughts, bits of reality, persons,
and fragments of conversations. And the charged bits reflect this fire
also in the Bible. Patterns of concepts flowing in from reality get
demoted to temporal management, and eyes slowly awaken from a position
already beside Christ in eternity.
Where there is no time, we are already there.
I think when these start to connect everywhere (the temporal self and
the eternal self being from a single perspective), is when this great
wave will build and wash over the earth in a kind of rapture that
literally travels by the twinkle of an eye, i.e. you can tell by the way
he looks at you that he's eternal; and that much of the information that
can lead others there, travels the same way.
<specu>
But what's really weird is I think God will do it that way to display a
sense of humor, taking advantage of Paul's phrase 'twinkle of an eye' to
make it mean something completely unexpected....
</lation>
ermm, but that's what happens when I get /well/ into the realm of
speculation...
pablo
> In article <5203610b.04072...@posting.google.com>,
> rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
>
> > psalmsmith <psalm...@ncs.prra.mcom> wrote in message
> > news:<Uv2Nc.214447$2o2.10...@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
>
> > >
> > > But because I know it isn't a 'legal' issue, I instead 'just don't go
> > > there' as it seems even if I try to present a right view, that my
> > > efforts would be misinterpreted on account of the folks out there crying
> > > "Saturday Church or go to hell!"
> >
> > yeah, i tried to go through the 10 commandments once or twice and it
> > just doesn't get as much play unless one is telling others how wrong
> > they are.
> >
> > but, the rub, as far as i see it has more to do with the last part of
> > that sentence, "...or go to hell." it has always been sad to me that
> > a healthy discussion of the sabbath is difficult to near impossible in
> > these forums. there's so much which should be discussed and which is
> > wonderful.
>
> Some topics have gotten 'owned' by the rock-throwers; which is which I
> always liked the idea of using peer pressure to keep the rock-throwers
> out.
>
> Whatever you think you can come into my house, just leave the bag of
> rocks outside please.
i agree, just leave the "stoning tools" outside the door - there's
liberty in discussion - not unity in agreement maybe - but we have a
great freedom to sit, one another, side by side, and behold.
being baptist, and well aware of baptist history (though i am not a
denom freak - i still honor my parents so to speak), we have the
tradition of a split in our past between the 7th day baptists and they
drew a very strong line on seeing the sabbath as being a day of rest
and worship - but not a works of righteousness or a damnable sin if
broached. in some cases fellowship was broken along such lines with
other non-7th day groups of baptists - but in general there was an air
of "agreeing to disagree" most rigorously - but not to the expense of
not calling others outside the faith.
baptists by and large (in the us) come from seperatists - their hatred
of a top down dogma and authoritarian rule served to unify when
differences such as this arose. but, largely, it was their common
faith in the scriptures as the rule of faith and practice and in
salavtion by grace through faith alone.
i find it interesting, that among the denoms - the assemblies of God
seem to be among the most well thought on the matter of salvation by
faith alone - and they see one losing salvation - not like a person
losing a set of keys, or because of an infraction of holy law, but
instead through a life which willfully loses faith. i am not in lock
step with the assemblies - but their position is well presented.
there is not a hurry to the stoning rocks in either case. restoration
or "rededication" unto reconciliation seems to be the major emphasis
in these cases.
>
> > it's along the legalistic line that the issue breaks - or along the
> > libertine line on the other side.
>
> to me it's more like a seed one can sow to produce something in thier
> lives. You don't have to take time out to rest and watch God's glory
> unfold but..... if you don't want to ya gotta wonder right?
>
> The seed sown, will produce the peace of God in your life.
>
> Now this much can be on any day of the week, of course.
well, to me that is the order of creation - each day God paused to
look back upon his labors. it's not commanded - nor do i know of it
being torah (except by implication in some psalms and admonitions to
mediation upon the works of the Lord) but - we live best when we pause
each day and consider it's events. we marvel at the wonders of God
daily, we have time to see our stumbles and errors and make quick
amends, and above all - we each can end our days saying, "it is
good," and go into sleep with peace.
6 days of labor also produce a great good in us. it is damaging to
our own minds (alone) not to labor. work is not the result of the
fall - toil is - but work is a part of what we are. indeed, we were
created for such good works as God has prepared ahead of time for us -
and i do not think such works are only those things we deem highly
spiritual - but work in general as well. i often think that elvis,
mr. taking care of business, suffered much for a lack of the daily
work a day life most of us begrudge.
but, the 1 in 7, i view much like i do the tithe (evil word which will
draw fire as well in forums). it's not the obligation - but the
reality of the matter - the first fruits of my labor are not offered
because i owe dues or homage to an agricultural diety (though, we fool
ourselves to think that humanity has ever grown beyond agriculture -
or that God is not also the God of agriculture). i tithe because i
know where my increase comes from - we give tithes, alms, offerings -
because of love and cheerfully - but more because it is a tangible
expression of a reality - all that i possess comes from God. 10 - 20%
of my income is not going to meet my needs... i dare say that i am not
foolish enough to suppose that 100% of my income is enough to stay the
day. instead, all that i have comes from God.
i view the same with my days. a day often can be more costly that a
dollar sum - though both are seemingly difficult in the beginning.
>
> > i personally would love to live in a sabbath honoring culture. like
> > you say, the majority of us actually do practice sabbath day rest in
> > some measure already (not to be confused with the image of sabbath
> > rest presented in hebrews).
>
> but this much is where it gets 'seventh-dayish'
>
> Now, I think of it as a cause/effect relationship; and the grand result
> of "sabbath-keeping' is Shavuot (feast of Weeks - Pentecost).
>
> It is a setting apart of time, and if you look at the feast of Weeks,
> God spends almost two months pounding "SEVEN" into the heads of the
> Israelites.
romans 9
4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the
divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple
worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them
is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever
praised! Amen.
a great investment of great patience and love was given - so that even
in their refusal of the kingdom - (btw, God never deemed that they
should have a human king - for God is their king - and though it took
time - Christ fulfilled that) - the shadows cast in israel became
substance when the Christ was revealed and shall be even moreso when
he is fully revealed.
>
> And then on the last (convergence) of patterns of seven comes the
> highest sabbath (sanctified, set apart time) /Shavuot/ called Pentecost.
> or the feast of weeks.
>
> It's on this day Jewish oral law says God gave Torah to Moses, and
> likewise on this day the Holy Spirit came to inhabit the hearts of man.
i am still reading the webpage on the festivals - it's taking me some
time - but thanks for the link. jewish oral law - do you suppose that
is the law which paul refers to when he speaks of women being silent
in the assembly? or do you think that the reference to the law was
not on the silence part - but rather upon the submission aspect?
>
> Be sure to look at 'counting the omer' in this section too, because God
> had the Israelites counting off every day in seven sets of sevens until
> the end, and then the Sabbath. Historicly, that's when all heaven
> breaks loose.
i certainly will - i look fwd to it.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > p.s. had a wonderful time of worship today reflecting on the seven
> > expressions of power in john... thanks for highlighting that for me.
>
> I really need to do a study on linking the miracles and /ego eimi/'s of
> John. I think, when you put them together there....is a kind of magic.
> I mean, I hate the vernacular, but it really does describe it -- i don't
> mean to invoke pagan rites here, or sleight of hand.
>
> It's like things become....charged. thoughts, bits of reality, persons,
> and fragments of conversations. And the charged bits reflect this fire
> also in the Bible. Patterns of concepts flowing in from reality get
> demoted to temporal management, and eyes slowly awaken from a position
> already beside Christ in eternity.
well, for magic one might think back to the words used to describe
parts of the prophetic literature - dynamistic language. i could see
these as dynamistic acts - which is in keeping with john's appriasal
of them as signs and Jesus calling them, "works." i have not checked
the greek for "works" but it might mean a bit more than labors and
instead be an outworking of divine energies (a whole nuther kettle of
fish).
>
> Where there is no time, we are already there.
or maybe time as we know or count time. just an odd speculation that
"time" as we know it might not mean that a quality known as "time"
does not exist beyond or above our time.... just a wild thought.
but, i get you - time in relation to temporal (or time bound items)
as opposed to that which is not temporal.
>
> I think when these start to connect everywhere (the temporal self and
> the eternal self being from a single perspective), is when this great
> wave will build and wash over the earth in a kind of rapture that
> literally travels by the twinkle of an eye, i.e. you can tell by the way
> he looks at you that he's eternal; and that much of the information that
> can lead others there, travels the same way.
sounds very organic. i am not certain i agree or disagree... i see
the imagery you are using - like something being kindled - the world
set afire as Christ said. so, possibly it is a perspective piece
concerning description. i tend to look more often to the revealing as
in col 3:3 for my model of understanding this.
>
> <specu>
> But what's really weird is I think God will do it that way to display a
> sense of humor, taking advantage of Paul's phrase 'twinkle of an eye' to
> make it mean something completely unexpected....
> </lation>
>
> ermm, but that's what happens when I get /well/ into the realm of
> speculation...
God laughs at the wisdom of the "wise." whatever comes it will be
patient and building - though the sudden elements of the matter will
be almost without explanation.
peace.
pablo
psalmsmith
rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
> >
> > And then on the last (convergence) of patterns of seven comes the
> > highest sabbath (sanctified, set apart time) /Shavuot/ called Pentecost.
> > or the feast of weeks.
> >
> > It's on this day Jewish oral law says God gave Torah to Moses, and
> > likewise on this day the Holy Spirit came to inhabit the hearts of man.
>
> i am still reading the webpage on the festivals - it's taking me some
> time - but thanks for the link.
I know, there is a whole /lot/ of stuff there. It's hard to parse
through it all at first blush, or to draw any conclusions.
I think as far as the holidays go, in Zechariah 14:16-21 the prophet
reveals a time after Messiah has come to reign on earth from Jerusalem.
Christians would know the time as 'following the second coming'
These are the prophecies that His detractors expected Christ to fulfill
right then. "Why wasn't He a political leader? Why wasn't He a martial
leader?"
He was.
Just not the way they expected.
They didn't know He would accomplish it by His Spirit, and then return
to perfect it on a planetary scale once the word got out.
[Zechariah 14:16] And it shall come to pass, that
every one that is left of all the nations which came
against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to
worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast
of tabernacles. [17] And it shall be, that whoso will not
come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to
worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall
be no rain. [18] And if the family of Egypt go not up, and
come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague,
wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up
to keep the feast of tabernacles. [19] This shall be the
punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations
that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. [20] In
that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses,
HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORDąS house
shall be like the bowls before the altar. [21] Yea, every
pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the
LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and
take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there
shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of
hosts.
And I see that after His return, the whole planet will be required at
least to keep this one feast in particular.
and I wonder....
A day that God wants observed before, after, but not in the middle?
and, why not in the middle?
I don't see why not in the middle, and nothing anyone ever showed me has
convinced me that God has changed His desire for us regarding observance
of Tabernacles.
And that's what sowed in me the desire to keep the feasts.
> jewish oral law - do you suppose that
> is the law which paul refers to when he speaks of women being silent
> in the assembly? or do you think that the reference to the law was
> not on the silence part - but rather upon the submission aspect?
Jewish oral law was, according to tradition, given to Moses at the same
time as the written law, which law Moses passed on to later generations
and called /mishna/ "to learn, repeat."
The /mishna/ was witten down around 200 AD. The Jewish Talmud is
composed of this /mishna/ surrounded by Rabbinic commentaries through
the ages.
Paul, being a Pharisee, we can safely assume knew the /mishna/, and
probably the positions of his contemporaries in regards to it's
interpretation.
Actually, I think Paul was heavily influenced by the /mishna/, but not
at all influenced by the commentaries of unbelievers whatever. And I do
think that is where this idea came from, although I'm not familiar
enough with it to cite...
It was, however a rule of order rather than a rule of fellowship was it
not? I know the headcoverings was a rule of fellowship and we largely
ignore that one. i.e. women must cover their head to pray, men must
uncover theirs. reason being to use man and wife to exemplify the
relationship between Christ and mankind.
In fact, I'd even think the epistles put on a good case for requiring a
woman to have her head covered whenever she came into the presence of
God (i.e. prayer, church, etc) at all.
I think probably it would be good to do. I don't really think it's all
that important on the grand scale of things, but I do find it
interesting that it just...isn't done...to a great extent.
Again, the part about women being silent in church, I think that was a
rule of order, not of fellowship. Rules of order take (to my
understanding) a lower priority than do rules of fellowship; so if we as
a church (by and large) ignore the bigger one [women's headcoverings],
how can we rightly make a stink about the smaller one [women speaking].
Personally, I think that if a church does not have disorder problems
then it's not an issue. Now Paul does make it out to be bigger issue
than I do, but I do also think he was personally a little bit of a
misogynist. Paul said up front that some of what he was telling us came
straight from God, and some of it came straight from him.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say, is I think silent women was Paul's idea,
but covering heads in prayer was God's. Without acceptance of the
covered heads to pray, the silent women thing is pretty much irrelevant.
Do the little thing and ignore the big thing, yeah, like straining at
gnats and swallowing camels. That's what it reminds me of.
IOW I don't know that it is important for women to be silent in church
outside of a specific scenerio -- but I do know it's important for
believers to model God and Christ.
[Matthew 23:23] Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites: for ye tithe mint, and anise, and cummin, and
omit the graver matters of the law, judgment, and mercy,
and fidelity: these ought ye to do, and those not to omit.
[24] Ye blind guides, who strain out gnats, and swallow
down camels.
" hypocrites: for ye tithe [...], and omit the graver matters of the
law, judgment, and mercy,"
"you will keep your women silent in church, but they will not cover
their heads in prayer!"
these two seem to add up the same way to me. not that headcovering is
equal to judgement and mercy; but the same equation *on a smaller scale*
and producing a smaller product.
Just divided out the same way.
psalmsmith
> > I really need to do a study on linking the miracles and /ego eimi/'s of
> > John. I think, when you put them together there....is a kind of magic.
> > I mean, I hate the vernacular, but it really does describe it -- i don't
> > mean to invoke pagan rites here, or sleight of hand.
> >
> > It's like things become....charged. thoughts, bits of reality, persons,
> > and fragments of conversations. And the charged bits reflect this fire
> > also in the Bible. Patterns of concepts flowing in from reality get
> > demoted to temporal management, and eyes slowly awaken from a position
> > already beside Christ in eternity.
>
> well, for magic one might think back to the words used to describe
> parts of the prophetic literature - dynamistic language. i could see
> these as dynamistic acts - which is in keeping with john's appriasal
> of them as signs and Jesus calling them, "works." i have not checked
> the greek for "works" but it might mean a bit more than labors and
> instead be an outworking of divine energies (a whole nuther kettle of
> fish).
>
"an outworking of divine energies" I like that, it is a perfect
description, yes. The word I settled on was 'charged' I think, but that
leaves too much of an autonomous impression doesn't it? Some kind of
ignorant energy? But this outworking moves according to the will of God.
Although I think also that 'charged' might be the best way to represent
it visually, which makes sense, because what insights given me (as
opposed to earned) are given visually.
That's why, I think, I see such things as the eternal perspective and
the temporal perspective joining to a singular point of view per each
glorified soul, as igniting a kind of fire. You called it by a perfect
label, because it described how I see most of the things that I see.
"it is a perspective piece concerning description"
that's it.
{}{}{}
The things I come to see by grace, come as snapshots from some... very
unique perspective, of a clear viewpoint on a truth.
I am not so ignorant as to think that there aren't a billion other
balconies out there...there are a lot of different perspectives on the
same truth, on the same God.
I think there is beauty in that... How God can make varied P.O.V's on a
central truth, that don't contradict. abiding perspectives, I think is
where a great deal of strength will be found in the church.
But there are others, and other viewpoints that do contradict, and will
not abide as a perspective among friends. identify them, and watch
thier fruit. Consider them such, according to the ideas they dispense.
{}{}{}
Now, I may have about as unusual a perspective as a person can possibly
have from the "conservative fundamentalist" end of the spectrum, but I
believe in the validity of the Mosaic law, as a kind of "assembler code"
which will program a heart to (be more able and willing to) function
righteously in all manner of environments.
Now you can load the program or not load the program. It doesn't affect
salvation, or your final destination...but it might affect something
else. Eternal status.
[Mt 5:19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of
these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall
be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but
whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be
called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Will i be called the least, or the greatest in heaven?
It could be that such matters are irrelevant to you; as David said, "I'd
rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God..."
and that is good, and healthy. But look here, Jesus says that if we
want to, we can be great in the Kingdom of heaven. "whosoever shall do
and teach them, ...shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." I
mean, such matters of least and great are irrelevant to me too, but
folks need to know this stuff, y'know? God says "greatness is this way,
so aim this way," and it's like noone has ever been told.
That's all I'm saying. 8-)
psalmsmith
> >
> > Where there is no time, we are already there.
>
> or maybe time as we know or count time. just an odd speculation that
> "time" as we know it might not mean that a quality known as "time"
> does not exist beyond or above our time.... just a wild thought.
>
> but, i get you - time in relation to temporal (or time bound items)
> as opposed to that which is not temporal.
>
Oh I agree, actually. I have no doubt that there is a "dimention of
progression" in the eternal realm.
Indeed, i think there are seven dimentions, each of which are
perpendicularly transcendant to the one before it.
1) created realm length
2) created width
3) created depth
4) created time
( &=to eternal length )
5) eternal realm width
6) eternal depth
7) eternal time
Which would make the 7000 year span of the creation, appear as a single
length (string of time) from the perspective of the eternal realm.
Of course all this is speculation, but it is the ontology I work from in
my address of eternity and this created reality.
psalmsmith
> >
> > I think when these start to connect everywhere (the temporal self and
> > the eternal self being from a single perspective), is when this great
> > wave will build and wash over the earth in a kind of rapture that
> > literally travels by the twinkle of an eye, i.e. you can tell by the way
> > he looks at you that he's eternal; and that much of the information that
> > can lead others there, travels the same way.
>
> sounds very organic. i am not certain i agree or disagree... i see
> the imagery you are using - like something being kindled - the world
> set afire as Christ said. so, possibly it is a perspective piece
> concerning description. i tend to look more often to the revealing as
> in col 3:3 for my model of understanding this.
>
>
[Colossians 3:1-4]
[1] If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those
things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right
hand of God. [2] Set your affection on things above, not
on things on the earth. [3] For ye are dead, and your life
is hid with Christ in God. [4] When Christ, who is our
life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in
glory.
Indeed so, vs 4 is a description of the same event. There is more than
one description of this event in scripture, of course. But it is indeed
the exact same event I was talking about.
Our appearing with Christ in glory. Our transformation from temporal to
eternal. Exactly so.
pablo
yes, thanks for bringing out the exact verse - 4 - i get stuck on
verse 3 in my head quite often - and assume 4 when thinking of it.
this ties into the prayers of Christ in john 17 - the "glorification"
so to speak, which is found in our unity or being made one or
identification with Jesus.
of course, this has happened already, by faith we enter into it, in
the first coming - death, burial, resurrection, and ascention of our
Lord - but it awaits fulfillment of the times.
the end of the age came - and now it is hidden from view but the drum
beat will sound with growing clarity until all is revealed for all to
see. this present evil age will be filled up and then all shall be
revealed as it truly is.
we are all heading to the same place - but not the same end.
i see the circles of 7's in revelation (the bowls, the trumps, etc) as
the pounding of the drums calling for repentence. it begins in the
church - with the theme of the 7 letters being "repent" for the most
part and carries on in type showing that God's judgement is just.
peace.
pablo
pablo
yeah, it's heady stuff - i'll have to mull over your 7's. but, i can
see what you are saying. you often allude to the perpendictular in
your descriptions - i have a bit of trouble wrapping my mind around
that...
but, i do know that finitude will not cease in the age to come - or i
suppose it's so - and that cannot leave me with a "timeless"
experience for humans. i still hold that God does not move through
successive phases or steps of time as we know it. such is not
revealed as to the nature of which we can speak nothing more than
speculation. so, it must be with careful humilty that we approach
such thoughts - but still we can and are free to consider that which
we have been shown.
john measured heaven's walls - is a phrase that keeps me on my toes.
there will be a made new heavens and a made new earth - which also
keeps me on my toes.
much to consider and marvel at in this creation.
peace.
pablo
pablo
i wanted to add that i see more and more the aspect of the Creator God
in the gospel - and the "acts" or "signs" are very much an assertion
of the Creator upon creation. a righting of what was done at the
fall.
israel now has her king - and he is a it was deemed - God. and he is
king of all - not merely a national diety - but God of all things
calling all people everywhere to turn towards him.
i think you are on the right track - the signs or works are more than
mere magic and they are not accidents in history - but rather acts of
the Creator.
>
> {}{}{}
>
> The things I come to see by grace, come as snapshots from some... very
> unique perspective, of a clear viewpoint on a truth.
>
> I am not so ignorant as to think that there aren't a billion other
> balconies out there...there are a lot of different perspectives on the
> same truth, on the same God.
>
> I think there is beauty in that... How God can make varied P.O.V's on a
> central truth, that don't contradict. abiding perspectives, I think is
> where a great deal of strength will be found in the church.
>
> But there are others, and other viewpoints that do contradict, and will
> not abide as a perspective among friends. identify them, and watch
> thier fruit. Consider them such, according to the ideas they dispense.
yep. the works of God are manifold and multifaceted.
>
> {}{}{}
>
> Now, I may have about as unusual a perspective as a person can possibly
> have from the "conservative fundamentalist" end of the spectrum, but I
> believe in the validity of the Mosaic law, as a kind of "assembler code"
> which will program a heart to (be more able and willing to) function
> righteously in all manner of environments.
well, down right dispensationalism is a trap most fall into at some
point of another. there is often a ditch on either side of most roads
- though some run along cliffs. it is goood to meditate upon the
torah of God day and night. though the letter kills and the Spirit
brings life. "assembler code" is an interesting take on the matter.
>
> Now you can load the program or not load the program. It doesn't affect
> salvation, or your final destination...but it might affect something
> else. Eternal status.
>
> [Mt 5:19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of
> these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall
> be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but
> whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be
> called great in the kingdom of heaven.
>
> Will i be called the least, or the greatest in heaven?
>
> It could be that such matters are irrelevant to you; as David said, "I'd
> rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God..."
>
> and that is good, and healthy. But look here, Jesus says that if we
> want to, we can be great in the Kingdom of heaven. "whosoever shall do
> and teach them, ...shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." I
> mean, such matters of least and great are irrelevant to me too, but
> folks need to know this stuff, y'know? God says "greatness is this way,
> so aim this way," and it's like noone has ever been told.
>
> That's all I'm saying. 8-)
it's the parable of the vineyard in my mind. the vineyard is rented
and the majority of the benefits are for the renters - the rent is to
be paid out at harvest time and not before hand. there are those who
sought to keep the vineyard for themselves killing the messengers and
even the son - and not giving the owner his cut. to them it is taken
away (or was taken away - in the case of israel).
this is not our vineyard - but rather the owners - yet we get the
majority of the benefit and profit. what blind eyes are those who do
not acknowledge the owner of the vineyard.
peace.
pablo
Christine
> psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
news:<psalmsmith-7E276...@news3-ge0.southeast.rr.com>...
> > In article <5203610b.04073...@posting.google.com>,
> > rab...@gmail.com (pablo) wrote:
oh for heaven's sake what are you two on about already?
sheesh!
(grins)
In Christ---still in this side of the veil in time and space
Christine