Can a Christian lose salvation?
Matt
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
Answer: Before this question is answered, the term �Christian� must be
defined. A �Christian� is not a person who has said a prayer, or
walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each
of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are
not what �makes� a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by
faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior
(John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation?
Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to
examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what
losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:
A Christian is a new creation. �Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he
is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!� (2 Corinthians
5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature
as a result of being �in Christ.� For a Christian to lose salvation,
the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.
A Christian is redeemed. �For you know that it was not with perishable
things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty
way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect� (1 Peter
1:18-19). The word �redeemed� refers to a purchase being made, a price
being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have
to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of
Christ.
A Christian is justified. Therefore, since we have been justified
through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ�
(Romans 5:1). To �justify� means to declare righteous. All those who
receive Jesus as Savior are declared righteous� by God. For a
Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and
�un-declare� what He had previously declared.
A Christian is promised eternal life. For God so loved the world that
he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall
not perish but have eternal life� (John 3:16). Eternal life is a
promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises,
�Believe and you will have eternal life. For a Christian to lose
salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is
promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by
taking away eternal life?
A Christian is guaranteed glorification. And those he predestined, he
also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
he also glorified (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1,
justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans
8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies.
Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection
body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is
in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those
whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared.
Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose
salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when
we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation
could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be
un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be
lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose
salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His
mind�two things that Scripture tells us God never does.
The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot
lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and
continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are
Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem
with these two objections is the phrase �who are Christians. The Bible
declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral
lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the
faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John
2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not
continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and
deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.
No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a
Christian from God�s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a
Christian from God�s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and
able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude
24-25, To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you
before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the
only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
While looking for answers on another question found this article.
God Bless
Matt
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <mptm45d5ve7lolfqp...@4ax.com>,
Matt <trdell1234@ns%gmail.com> wrote:
>Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
No.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those
who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to
the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among
many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those
he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also
glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If
God is for us, who can be against us? (Romans 8:28-31 NIV)
God has already glorified everyone He justifies. You can't
have someone get justified without also getting glorified. If
someone ends up as an unbeliever, then they were never a
believer to begin with.
The only way you can lose salvation, is if salvation depends,
even in the slightest, on your merits and work, instead of
God' sovereign grace, through faith in Christ's death and
resurrection. So to propose you can get saved, then lose it,
is to propose that salvation is not by grace, through faith,
apart from works, through faith in Christ's work alone, but
also by human merit. Otherwise, "grace is no more grace, and
works are no more works".
The doctrine that salvation is by grace, through faith, not by
man's works or merits, is clearly established in a large body
of Scripture (Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, etc.). Contrary
interpretations of random verse snippets here and there (e.g.
Heb. 6; James, etc.) is not a sound method of interpretation.
If a doctrine is clearly established in a large body of
Scripture, you don't then override that with a contrary
interpretation of a less clear body of Scripture, or try to
force the large, clear body of doctrine to conform to the
proposed, contrary interpretation from the smaller, less clear
body of doctrine. Rather, you interpret the smaller, less
clear, in light of the truth clearly revealed in the larger
body.
--
Have you heard Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him
from the dead? Did you know God saves you from hell and
gives you eternal life through faith in this finished work alone,
not your merits (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess.
1:8-9)? This is so man cannot boast, and God alone gets the
glory (Eph. 2:8-9).
______________________________________________
www.faithguard.org
www.twitter.com/faithguard
www.facebook.com/faithguard
______________________________________________
Sensi
> posted with permission
>
>
>
> http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
>
>
> Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
>
> defined. A �Christian� is not a person who has said a prayer, or
> walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each
> of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are
> faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior
> (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
>
> So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation?
> Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to
> examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what
> losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:
>
> is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!� (2 Corinthians
> 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature
> the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.
>
> things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty
> way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
> 1:18-19). The word �redeemed� refers to a purchase being made, a price
> being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have
> to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of
> Christ.
>
> A Christian is justified. Therefore, since we have been justified
> (Romans 5:1). To �justify� means to declare righteous. All those who
> receive Jesus as Savior are declared righteous� by God. For a
> Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and
>
> A Christian is promised eternal life. For God so loved the world that
> he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall
> promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises,
> salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is
> promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by
> taking away eternal life?
>
> A Christian is guaranteed glorification. And those he predestined, he
> also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
> he also glorified (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1,
> justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans
> 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies.
> Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection
> body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is
> in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those
> whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
>
> Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared.
> Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose
> salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when
> we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation
> could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be
> un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be
> lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose
> salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His
>
> The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot
> lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and
> continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are
> Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem
> declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral
> lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the
> faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John
> 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not
> continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and
> deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.
>
> No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a
> Christian from God�s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and
> able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude
> 24-25, To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you
> before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the
> only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
> Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
>
>
> While looking for answers on another question found this article.
>
> God Bless
>
> Matt
>
Sensi:
Salvation is always an ongoing process. It doesn't start and
end overnight.
It's going on constantly within you.
As you give and receive so does it come in the form of
understandings and wisdom that constantly *save* you from
bad behavior, inappropriate actions and helps you to be
loving, kind and forgiving to yourself and to all mankind.
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <5KadnQXDkuCkG9bX...@accessus.net>,
Sensi <sensi...@home.com> wrote:
>Matt wrote:
>> posted with permission
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
>>
>>
>> Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
>>
>> Answer: Before this question is answered, the term �Christian� must be
>> defined. A �Christian� is not a person who has said a prayer, or
>> walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each
>> of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are
>> not what �makes� a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by
>> faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior
>> (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
>>
>> So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation?
>> Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to
>> examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what
>> losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:
>>
>> A Christian is a new creation. �Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he
>> is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!� (2 Corinthians
>> 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature
>> as a result of being �in Christ.� For a Christian to lose salvation,
>> the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.
>>
>> A Christian is redeemed. �For you know that it was not with perishable
>> things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty
>> way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
>> precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect� (1 Peter
>> 1:18-19). The word �redeemed� refers to a purchase being made, a price
>> being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have
>> to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of
>> Christ.
>>
>> A Christian is justified. Therefore, since we have been justified
>> through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ�
>> (Romans 5:1). To �justify� means to declare righteous. All those who
>> receive Jesus as Savior are declared righteous� by God. For a
>> Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and
>> �un-declare� what He had previously declared.
>>
>> A Christian is promised eternal life. For God so loved the world that
>> he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall
>> not perish but have eternal life� (John 3:16). Eternal life is a
>> promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises,
>> �Believe and you will have eternal life. For a Christian to lose
>> salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is
>> promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by
>> taking away eternal life?
>>
>> A Christian is guaranteed glorification. And those he predestined, he
>> also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
>> he also glorified (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1,
>> justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans
>> 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies.
>> Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection
>> body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is
>> in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those
>> whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
>>
>> Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared.
>> Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose
>> salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when
>> we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation
>> could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be
>> un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be
>> lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose
>> salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His
>> mind�two things that Scripture tells us God never does.
>>
>> The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot
>> lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and
>> continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are
>> Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem
>> with these two objections is the phrase �who are Christians. The Bible
>> declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral
>> lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the
>> faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John
>> 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not
>> continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and
>> deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.
>>
>> No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a
>> Christian from God�s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a
>> Christian from God�s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and
>> able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude
>> 24-25, To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you
>> before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the
>> only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
>> Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
>>
>>
>> While looking for answers on another question found this article.
>>
>> God Bless
>>
>> Matt
>>
>
>
>Sensi:
>Salvation is always an ongoing process. It doesn't start and
>end overnight.
>It's going on constantly within you.
>As you give and receive so does it come in the form of
>understandings and wisdom that constantly *save* you from
>bad behavior, inappropriate actions and helps you to be
>loving, kind and forgiving to yourself and to all mankind.
By what authority are you saying these things, if you do not
accept the Bible as the authority?
<<kêllÿ>>
> > On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:57:00 -0800,
> > In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> > Article <mptm45d5ve7lolfqp7b0rkkjkvsokak...@4ax.com>,
Wow - interesting answer.
Interesting because on numerous occasions, you have essentially
refused to answer this question when I have asked it of you. You have
claimed on several occasions that I am degenerate, that I am not saved
but going to hell. Everytime I have given you my testimony of
salvation (that I was saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ on
February 13, 1975 when I was 14 years old) and then asked you how it
is possible I was saved at one time but now somehow not saved (I have
even asked you point-blank if you believe one can lose their
salvation), you have danced and dodged and hemmed and hawed. In fact,
on numerous occasions, I have quoted the exact same verses as you have
above (Romans 8:28-31). On the whole, when I have presented these
verses to you as proof that one cannot lose their salvation and asked
you to explain how I can be saved at one time in my life but now no
longer am saved (according to you), you have danced and dodged some
more - and ultimately just stopped responding to my direct questions.
Yet now...you say definitively that one cannot lose their salvation -
so which is it?
Do you *really* have a faith and trust in the Lord God Almighty and
His Word that is firm and unshakable or do you have a belief in a god
whose word is changable depending on his moods and his likes and
dislikes and those he favors above others (as you seem to be)? Is
your God a Father who keeps His promises or a god who, like a man who
will lie, is double-minded and unstable in all his ways? (see James
1:8)
<<kêllÿ>>
> Sensi:
> Salvation is always an ongoing process. It doesn't start and
> end overnight.
> It's going on constantly within you.
Sorry, but if you are speaking of the salvation that comes from the
atonement of Jesus Christ, your belief about salvation is not
Scriptural, but man-made.
> As you give and receive so does it come in the form of
> understandings and wisdom that constantly *save* you from
> bad behavior, inappropriate actions and helps you to be
> loving, kind and forgiving to yourself and to all mankind.
No...defintiely no.
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article
<<k�ll�>> <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
The fact that once a person is saved, they are always saved
(which I have always maintained in here), does not apply to
people who were never saved in the first place. Anyone weed
can claim they trusted Christ, but if they never repent of
things like homosexuality, if reveals they were never really
saved to begin with:
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom
of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual
offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor
slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV)
That isn't talking about people who were saved, then lost it,
but people whose refusal to repent of things like sexual
immorality, reveals they were never saved in the first place.
Sensi
> On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:52:20 -0500,
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article <5KadnQXDkuCkG9bX...@accessus.net>,
> Sensi <sensi...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Matt wrote:
>>> posted with permission
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
>>>
>>> walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each
>>> of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are
>>> faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior
>>> (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
>>>
>>> So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation?
>>> Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to
>>> examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what
>>> losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:
>>>
>>> is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!� (2 Corinthians
>>> 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature
>>> the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.
>>>
>>> things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty
>>> way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
>>> 1:18-19). The word �redeemed� refers to a purchase being made, a price
>>> being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have
>>> to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of
>>> Christ.
>>>
>>> A Christian is justified. Therefore, since we have been justified
>>> receive Jesus as Savior are declared righteous� by God. For a
>>> Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and
>>>
>>> A Christian is promised eternal life. For God so loved the world that
>>> he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall
>>> promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises,
>>> salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is
>>> promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by
>>> taking away eternal life?
>>>
>>> A Christian is guaranteed glorification. And those he predestined, he
>>> also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
>>> he also glorified (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1,
>>> justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans
>>> 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies.
>>> Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection
>>> body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is
>>> in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those
>>> whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
>>>
>>> Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared.
>>> Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose
>>> salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when
>>> we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation
>>> could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be
>>> un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be
>>> lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose
>>> salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His
>>>
>>> The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot
>>> lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and
>>> continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are
>>> Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem
>>> declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral
>>> lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the
>>> faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John
>>> 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not
>>> continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and
>>> deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.
>>>
>>> No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a
>>> Christian from God�s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and
>>> able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude
>>> 24-25, To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you
>>> before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the
>>> only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
>>> Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
>>>
>>>
>>> While looking for answers on another question found this article.
>>>
>>> God Bless
>>>
>>> Matt
>>>
>>
>> Sensi:
>> Salvation is always an ongoing process. It doesn't start and
>> end overnight.
>> It's going on constantly within you.
>> As you give and receive so does it come in the form of
>> understandings and wisdom that constantly *save* you from
>> bad behavior, inappropriate actions and helps you to be
>> loving, kind and forgiving to yourself and to all mankind.
>
>
>
> By what authority are you saying these things, if you do not
> accept the Bible as the authority?
>
Sensi:
The Bible lends many notions. But living life tells the
story. This authority you question is everywhere and in
everything. I wouldn't eat a poison mushroom because
authority tells me it's poison.
I wouldn't kill my neighbor because authority tells me
in my heart that it's wrong.
<<kêllÿ>>
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:02:17 -0700 (PDT),
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article
Really? How is it possible that those who believe in and trust the
Word of God and trust in a confess Jesus Christ as Lord and accept His
atonement for their sins as outlined in the Gospels can be anything
but saved? Are you not familiar with Acts 10:15?
> Anyone weed
> can claim they trusted Christ, but if they never repent of
> things like homosexuality, if reveals they were never really
> saved to begin with:
I see. So you are saying that even though I was know I was born-again
on February 13, 1975 because I believed in and trusted God and His
Word when I was presented with and read John 3:16 (amongst other New
Testament Scripture) that because I am a lesbian today (even though at
the time I knew nothing of what being a lesbian was on February 13,
1975), my trust in Jesus and belief in my salvation based on Acts
16:31 and Romans 10:9 was just some huge cosmic joke and that no one
can believe what the Bible says about salvation?
If that's what you believe, then you do not believe in the finished
and one-time work of Jesus Christ for salvation from sins, but believe
in a works-based salvation in opposition to Ephesians 2:8-9.
> Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom
> of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
> idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual
> offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor
> slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
> (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV)
>
> That isn't talking about people who were saved, then lost it,
No, it isn't. Those verses are talking about people who were involved
in practicing idolatry and prostitution in the temple. I've never
been involved in either.
> but people whose refusal to repent of things like sexual
> immorality, reveals they were never saved in the first place.
So you're saying you believe that what God said in His Word about
being born again, about being saved by grace through faith (and not of
works) and there is no longer any condemnation for those who are in
Christ Jesus isn't what He really meant? IOW, your story changes
depending on the person you are talking to.
Indeed, the god on the throne of your life (who actually is you)
sounds really confused, double-minded, and unstable in all his ways.
<<kêllÿ>>
> > By what authority are you saying these things, if you do not
> > accept the Bible as the authority?
> Sensi:
> The Bible lends many notions. But living life tells the
> story. This authority you question is everywhere and in
> everything.
A Christian's spiritual authority is in Christ Jesus - nothing else.
Sensi
Sensi:
Jesus is the example of Christ. We can all be Christ-like
just like Jesus was the Christ.
So are we asked to do.
So it is in every religion and not every person in every
religions wants to follow as asked to do. We'd rather follow
an idol instead of practicing the practice.
A spiritual journey is constantly learning how to save
yourself from the selfish self.
Giving and receiving
Honor and obey
Trust in the good
Become the fruits of the spirit.
Those things don't happen over night, it takes time and
practice...
Love is patent. Love is kind.
He waits and he waits..and in the meantime know that you're
forgiven time and time again 70 times 70 and beyond but for
heaven sakes *learn* from your mistakes and at least bring
home understandings of what you went through, why you went
through what you did and is there anything else you can
learn about life?
Where does learning end?
<<kêllÿ>>
> Jesus is the example of Christ. We can all be Christ-like
> just like Jesus was the Christ.
Not without the indwelling and guidance of the Holy Spirit. And that
indwelling only comes through salvation by the grace of God through
faith in Jesus Christ (and not works).
> So it is in every religion
No it's not.
> and not every person in every
> religions wants to follow as asked to do. We'd rather follow
> an idol instead of practicing the practice.
>
> A spiritual journey is constantly learning how to save
> yourself from the selfish self.
A "spiritual journey" isn't necessarily a Christ-led journey.
> Giving and receiving
> Honor and obey
> Trust in the good
> Become the fruits of the spirit.
There's no such thing as the "fruits" of the Spirit - only the Fruit
of the Spirit. And even then, that is received only through the power
of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God through faith in the Bibilical
Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
> Those things don't happen over night, it takes time and
> practice...
No, it doesn't. The Fruit of the Spirit isn't obtained through works
*lest any man should boast).
> Love is patent. Love is kind.
Yes.
> He waits and he waits..and in the meantime know that you're
> forgiven time and time again 70 times 70
No - it's 70x7 and that is a model for mankind, not an example of
God's forgiveness.
God's forgiveness is once and eternal because of the shed blood of His
Son - the last and eternal sacrifice for our sins. But God doesn't
have grandchildren - one must make their own decision to accept that
sacrifice and receive cleansing for their past sins. Once that is
done, that blood-bought child of God will still sin and should ask for
forgiveness for those sins committed in the flesh, but God still sees
us as spotless because He sees us through the cleansing blood of His
Son, Jesus Christ.
> and beyond but for
> heaven sakes *learn* from your mistakes and at least bring
> home understandings of what you went through, why you went
> through what you did and is there anything else you can
> learn about life?
Your understanding of Christianity and the Bible is obviously from a
secular perspective, but keep searching - seek honestly and earnestly
and you will find Him. Over-analyze and continue to replace God's
truth with the lies of religiosity and man and you will not.
> Where does learning end?
We start learning when we are born and if we are wise we don't stop
learning until we die.
Sensi
> On Jul 1, 8:52 am, Sensi <sensi4si...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> Sensi:
>> Salvation is always an ongoing process. It doesn't start and
>> end overnight.
>> It's going on constantly within you.
>
> Sorry, but if you are speaking of the salvation that comes from the
> atonement of Jesus Christ, your belief about salvation is not
> Scriptural, but man-made.
>
Sensi:
You'll have a hard time convincing me that even you believe
that.
For instance take the Vera's, the Randy's the P. Dave's, the
Chuck's of the world who swear they *got * saved by a one
time admission. These people who believe the same as you
are constantly berating, belittling and telling you that
you're going to hell and you who also believes that you are
saved and they are not is constantly on their case to repent
or go to hell.
Nobody thinks the other person is saved because, because.....
Don't you find that strange?
Probably because everyone is still working out their salvation.
And didn't Jesus teach a very valuable lesson about
forgiveness for the people to actually do as *THE WAY*
to salvation through him having done it to begin with to
show them this is an example I set for you to follow? Why
don't Christians forgive each other?
How come Christians fight against each other about
each others salvation?
Salvation is more than just a one time event...
Carry on, carry on.
Salvation and forgiveness are two different things.
Doug
article <i_2dnQ4kz-xxLtbX...@accessus.net>:
I thought Kelley was referring to the atonement, that Jesus made for all,
when he died on our behalf. It is true, that this alone is the basis for
our salvation. Paul called it the foundation. "For other foundation can
no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." [1 Cor. 3:11]
It is also true that we must "work out our salvation." [Philippians 2:12]
Peter explained how: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to
make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall
never fall:" [2 Peter 1:10] So, IMHO, Sensi is right, we need to forgive
those who do wrong to us, and do good works. And scripture speaks of the
"way" of salvation; it is not just a one-time decision, but a growth
process. [Acts 16:17]
Paul described this as "building," and selecting from various materials
to build with. "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid,
which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold,
silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be
made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed
by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If
any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a
reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he
himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." [1 Corinthians 3:11-15]
Peter said the trial of our faith is "more precious than gold." [1 Peter
1:7] Maybe this is the "gold" Paul refers to above.
>
>
>
>>> As you give and receive so does it come in the form of understandings
>>> and wisdom that constantly *save* you from bad behavior, inappropriate
>>> actions and helps you to be loving, kind and forgiving to yourself and
>>> to all mankind.
>>
>> No...defintiely no.
>>
--
Doug
Sensi
> On Jul 1, 11:33 am, Sensi <sensi4si...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> Jesus is the example of Christ. We can all be Christ-like
>> just like Jesus was the Christ.
>
> Not without the indwelling and guidance of the Holy Spirit. And that
> indwelling only comes through salvation by the grace of God through
> faith in Jesus Christ (and not works).
>
>> So it is in every religion
>
> No it's not.
Sensi:
So you don't think the Holy spirit dwells in everyone?
Nor does Salvation by grace come about if you practice being
Christ-like?
>> and not every person in every
>> religions wants to follow as asked to do. We'd rather follow
>> an idol instead of practicing the practice.
>>
>> A spiritual journey is constantly learning how to save
>> yourself from the selfish self.
>
> A "spiritual journey" isn't necessarily a Christ-led journey.
Sensi:
Christ is a way of life. Living out Christ is far better
than preaching that the way of Christ was only in Jesus.
>
>> Giving and receiving
>> Honor and obey
>> Trust in the good
>> Become the fruits of the spirit.
>
> There's no such thing as the "fruits" of the Spirit - only the Fruit
> of the Spirit. And even then, that is received only through the power
> of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God through faith in the Bibilical
> Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
>
Sensi:
Aye on the plural. I was thinking of Gal 5:22 where the
fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith.
>> Those things don't happen over night, it takes time and
>> practice...
>
> No, it doesn't. The Fruit of the Spirit isn't obtained through works
> *lest any man should boast).
>
>> Love is patent. Love is kind.
>
> Yes.
>
Sensi:
It takes practice and work to get there.
Perhaps discipline sounds better to you than works if you
only think works is associated with working for something.
>> He waits and he waits..and in the meantime know that you're
>> forgiven time and time again 70 times 70
>
> No - it's 70x7 and that is a model for mankind, not an example of
> God's forgiveness.
Sensi:
God's forgiveness is far greater. The point of Jesus
teaching us to forgive 70X7 is a form of salvation.
You *save* yourself a lot of misery.
<<kêllÿ>>
> Sensi:
> So you don't think the Holy spirit dwells in everyone?
No. That's impossible because of mankind's innate sinfulness. We're
all born with it and without being born of water and of the Spirit,
the Holy Spirit cannot reside within.
> Nor does Salvation by grace come about if you practice being
> Christ-like?
No. Salvation is a gift from God and cannot be worked for.
> >> and not every person in every
> >> religions wants to follow as asked to do. We'd rather follow
> >> an idol instead of practicing the practice.
>
> >> A spiritual journey is constantly learning how to save
> >> yourself from the selfish self.
> > A "spiritual journey" isn't necessarily a Christ-led journey.
> Sensi:
> Christ is a way of life.
No, Jesus Christ is *the* Way and *the* Truth, and *the* Life, and no
one comes to the Father (God) but through Him (see John 14:6).
> Living out Christ is far better
> than preaching that the way of Christ was only in Jesus.
Is that found in the Bible?
> >> Giving and receiving
> >> Honor and obey
> >> Trust in the good
> >> Become the fruits of the spirit.
> > There's no such thing as the "fruits" of the Spirit - only the Fruit
> > of the Spirit. And even then, that is received only through the power
> > of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God through faith in the Bibilical
> > Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
> Aye on the plural. I was thinking of Gal 5:22 where the
> fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
> gentleness, goodness, faith.
Same here - and Galatians 5:22 says "fruit of the Spirit", not
"fruits" of the spirit.
> >> Those things don't happen over night, it takes time and
> >> practice...
> > No, it doesn't. The Fruit of the Spirit isn't obtained through works
> > *lest any man should boast).
> It takes practice and work to get there.
No, it doesn't
> Perhaps discipline sounds better to you than works
"Discipline" has nothing to do with "works".
> if you
> only think works is associated with working for something.
That's exactly what "works" means in the Biblical sense. The grace we
receive from God as a result of our acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice and
atonement for our sin through faith is a gift and cannot be obtained
through works (see Ephesians 2:8-9).
> > No - it's 70x7 and that is a model for mankind, not an example of
> > God's forgiveness.
> God's forgiveness is far greater. The point of Jesus
> teaching us to forgive 70X7 is a form of salvation.
No it's not.
> You *save* yourself a lot of misery.
If you're trying for a play on words to get a point across...the point
was lost.
<<kêllÿ>>
> >> Sensi:
> >> Salvation is always an ongoing process. It doesn't start and
> >> end overnight.
> >> It's going on constantly within you.
> > Sorry, but if you are speaking of the salvation that comes from the
> > atonement of Jesus Christ, your belief about salvation is not
> > Scriptural, but man-made.
> Sensi:
> You'll have a hard time convincing me that even you believe
> that.
Believe what you want. I know that if what you described above is
your definition of salvation that comes from Jesus Christ, then you
are dead wrong.
> For instance take the Vera's, the Randy's the P. Dave's, the
> Chuck's of the world who swear they *got * saved by a one
> time admission.
Uh-huh.
> These people who believe the same as you
> are constantly berating, belittling and telling you that
> you're going to hell and you who also believes that you are
> saved and they are not is constantly on their case to repent
> or go to hell.
Uh-huh.
> Nobody thinks the other person is saved because, because.....
> Don't you find that strange?
I find it human.
God's truths are still eternal - it's not His fault that mankind
messes up that which He made perfect.
> Probably because everyone is still working out their salvation.
Not.
> And didn't Jesus teach a very valuable lesson about
> forgiveness for the people to actually do as *THE WAY*
> to salvation through him having done it to begin with to
> show them this is an example I set for you to follow?
Huh?
> Why
> don't Christians forgive each other?
Christians forgive each other. Just not many in here. Usenet
Christians are not a good cross-section of Christianity.
> How come Christians fight against each other about
> each others salvation?
Because they are human and not God.
> Salvation is more than just a one time event...
Do you have something from the Bible to back that up?
> Carry on, carry on.
Uhh...okaaayyy...
> Salvation and forgiveness are two different things.
Really? Wanna expand on that thought?
Randy �
Article <i_2dnQ4kz-xxLtbX...@accessus.net>,
Sensi <sensi...@home.com> wrote:
>Sensi:
>You'll have a hard time convincing me that even you believe
>that.
>For instance take the Vera's, the Randy's the P. Dave's, the
>Chuck's of the world who swear they *got * saved by a one
>time admission.
Faith in Christ's death and resurrection brings instant and
permanent justification (Romans 1-5), sanctification (Romans
6-7), and glorification (Romans 8) with God, in our standing
in Christ.
As far as what we actually experience in our daily walk,
however, we notice only gradual conformity to the likeness of
Christ (Romans 12), and wait for glory, when we will be free
from the presence of our sin nature (Romans 8).
>These people who believe the same as you
>are constantly berating, belittling and telling you that
>you're going to hell and you who also believes that you are
>saved and they are not is constantly on their case to repent
>or go to hell.
If someone is not trusting in Christ, then they are going to
hell (John 3 - 5). Why would you expect us to believe that,
then do anything less than urge people to change their minds
and trust Christ?
If you saw someone heading towards the edge of a cliff, and
believed they would drive off and perish unless they changed
their direction, wouldn't you urge them to turn or crash, and
wouldn't you expect them to do that if they thought you were?
>Nobody thinks the other person is saved because, because.....
>Don't you find that strange?
Not sure what you mean by that. The Bible gives us two ways
to evaluate the state of someone's spirit, which is by their
profession, and by their fruit (1 John).
If they do not claim to trust in Christ alone for salvation,
then that's a clear indication they are not saved. If they do
not bear fruit, or repent of sin, over a long period of time,
then that's an indication they probably are not saved either.
If they profess to trust in Christ alone for salvation, and do
not abide in sin, but gradually conform to Christ (while there
may be temporary lapses and ups and downs in their walk), then
that's a good indication they are saved.
>Probably because everyone is still working out their salvation.
ibid.
>And didn't Jesus teach a very valuable lesson about
>forgiveness for the people to actually do as *THE WAY*
>to salvation through him having done it to begin with to
>show them this is an example I set for you to follow? Why
>don't Christians forgive each other?
The death of Christ for all sin, establishes a just basis for
forgiveness, since the full price of every offence has been
paid, once for all. For one who trusts in Christ, no sin can
ever come back and separate them from the love of God, or
their standing with Him in Christ.
However, fellowship is a different matter. Even though God
will not send us to hell for our sin, sinning does break our
fellowship with God. He says if we confess our sin, He is
faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all
unrighteousness (1 Jn. 2). Confession is necessary for
restored fellowship with God.
Likewise, even between believers, Matthew 18 puts forth a
system for maintaining fellowship (may not always be possible
in a settings like this). If a brother sins, go to him alone,
and confront him. If he repents, you've gained your brother.
If he doesn't, take one or two witnesses. If he repents,
good. If not, bring it before the church. If he repents,
good. If not, then he can be regarded as an unbeliever until
he repents.
Christ told Peter that if his brother comes to him seven times
in a day and says, "I repent", then he is to be forgiven.
Thus, while Ephesians 4:31-32 shows we should forgive, as God,
for Christ's sake has forgiven you, repentance should also be
an integral part of our forgiveness, and is necessary for
restored fellowship.
Even though we can forgive someone in the sense of accepting
Christ's atonement on behalf of their offences, we can't
really experience restored fellowship with the person, unless
they change their mind, agree they did wrong, and change their
behavior.
>How come Christians fight against each other about
>each others salvation?
It the positive side, it can be out of concern for their
salvation, the doctrinal integrity of the church at large, and
for the effect it has on the gospel testimony towards the
world.
>Salvation is more than just a one time event...
>Carry on, carry on.
(see Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification above)
>Salvation and forgiveness are two different things.
Forgiveness can apply both to salvation, and restored
fellowship.
Michael Christ
salvation.
Some well intentioned lurch in front of some hyped-up religious altar one
night simply won't cut it.
There has to be meat in a beef burger.
Michael Christ
I
> >Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
> No.
...
> Yet now...you say definitively that one cannot lose their salvation -
> so which is it?
Randy seems to make it up as he goes along.
I
> The fact that once a person is saved, they are always saved
> (which I have always maintained in here), does not apply to
> people who were never saved in the first place.
HOW do you know they weren't saved in the first place???????????
Are you God????????????????????????
> (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV)
[Romans 1] Paul is asserting that homosexuality is the punishment given by
God to those who fail to worship God properly. ... Paul is saying that God
infects people with homosexual desire if they engage in improper worshiop or
use improper images of God. ... If God could or would do that, would God be
worthy of anyone's worship? Would not God be an ogre, a demion or something
worse? p.136
In I Corinthians 5:10 and 6:9 Paul uses the word malekos, which means "soft"
or "lacking in self control", and the word arsenokoitis, which means " a
male lying" and is frequently used for male prostitutes. The normal
translation of these words has been "sexual perverts," by which most people
mean homosexuals. There is much debate in New testament circles as to
whether this translation is accurate. Is Paul referring to male
p-rostitutes or even to abusive homosexual relationships, then a word of
condemnation might well be in order. For that condemnation to extend to
include faithful, loving, non-exploitive gay and lesbian partnerships would
be to stretch the text to the breaking point in service to one's own
prejudice. pp140-141
from John Shelby Spong "The Sins Of Scripture: Eposing The Bible's Texts of
Hate To Reveal The God of Love" (HarperCollins: 2005)
I
> By what authority are you saying these things, if you do not
> accept the Bible as the authority?
On the basis of TRUTH.
Whatever is true is of God no matter where it is found.
Whatever is not true is not of God even if it is in the Bible.
--
The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
(a) a very stong emphasis on the inerrancy of the Bible, the absence from it
of any sort of error;
(b) a strong hostility to modern theology and to the methods, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible;
(c) an assurance that those who do not share their religious viewpoint are
not really 'true Christians' at all.
- James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977) p.1
I
> > By what authority are you saying these things, if you do not
> > accept the Bible as the authority?
...
> A Christian's spiritual authority is in Christ Jesus - nothing else.
Yep!
Jesus not a man-made fallible book!!!!
#########################################################
Christ does not read the Bible, the New Testament, or the Gospel. He is the
norm of the Bible, the criterion of the New Testament, the incarnation of
the Gospel. ... The person, not the book, and the life, not the text, are
decisive and constitutive for us.
John Dominic Crossan "God & Emprire: Jesus against Rome, then and now,"
(HarperOne:2007) p. 95
########################################################
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <p%R2m.2117$ze1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
A surrendered life is evidence that someone truly trusted
Christ, but salvation isn't a reward for living a surrendered
life. One has to have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit
to live a yielded life to God (Roman 6), and even then they
struggle with their sin nature (Romans 7) till glory (Romans
8).
I
> A surrendered life
Surrender your God-given brain to Randy and his fundamentalist ilk. You'll
never have to think again!
--
"We're Christians! We're not supposed to think!" Fanny Wype ("Nudist Colony
Of The Dead")
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe. Really! Try to believe even if
it's bloody stupid and irrational. Why? Because I said so, that's why!
Don't ask questions. Just believe." - Mark 17: 1- 3 (MTV)
<<kêllÿ>>
> A surrendered life is evidence that someone truly trusted
> Christ, but salvation isn't a reward for living a surrendered
> life. One has to have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit
> to live a yielded life to God (Roman 6), and even then they
> struggle with their sin nature (Romans 7) till glory (Romans
> 8).
You wrote it, but I'm not sure you get it.
<<kêllÿ>>
> Randy seems to make it up as he goes along.
I don't think he makes it up, but I do think he allows his emotions
and hatred and fears to get in the way, thereby causing his doctrine
to be confused and conflicting at times.
Case in point - in posts from the past, he has referred to aborted
fetuses as babies. In January, when faced with the possibility that
his unborn child might be born with Down Syndrome, he refers to that
unborn child as a "fetus". Ergo, what was someone else's aborted
fetus was, according to him, a murdered baby - what is his unborn baby
with the possibility of (as he referred to it) "defects" is just a
fetus.
IMO, this guy seems to have some serious, serious hangups and issues.
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article
<<k�ll�>> <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom
of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual
offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor
slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV)
--
<<kêllÿ>>
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 17:38:29 -0700 (PDT),
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article
>
> <<kêllÿ>> <rosie_be...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 1, 4:27 pm, Randy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> A surrendered life is evidence that someone truly trusted
> >> Christ, but salvation isn't a reward for living a surrendered
> >> life. One has to have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit
> >> to live a yielded life to God (Roman 6), and even then they
> >> struggle with their sin nature (Romans 7) till glory (Romans
> >> 8).
>
> >You wrote it, but I'm not sure you get it.
> Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom
> of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
> idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual
> offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor
> slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
> (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV)
Yeah...it would seem you still don't get it.
Do you not know that the Word of Almighty God promises that "there is
therefore no condenmnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"? Do you
also not know that because God sees those who believe in and confess
His Son as Lord and have accepted His atonement for their sins that
they cannot even *be considered* "wicked" by Him because He sees them
through the shed and cleansing blood of His Son Jesus Christ?
Why is all of that seemingly such a foreign concept to you? Has your
hatred for so many actually blinded you to the truth and caused you
trade the Truth of God for a lie?
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article
<<k�ll�>> <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>> Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom
>> of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
>> idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual
>> offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor
>> slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
>> (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV)
>
>Yeah...it would seem you still don't get it.
You're the one who doesn't get it. Homosexuality is sin, and
any homosexual,who refuses to repent and accept the atonement
Christ made, will not inherit the kingdom of God. That
doesn't mean you got saved and lost it, it means you were
deceived when you thought you were saved in the first place,
since no one who remains a homosexual ever trusted Christ for
salvation in the first place.
Michael Christ
"Randy �" <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rurn455qiimstm4mn...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:08:05 GMT,
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article <p%R2m.2117$ze1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> "Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Salvation only comes with total surrender. Then you can talk about true
>>salvation.
>>
>>Some well intentioned lurch in front of some hyped-up religious altar one
>>night simply won't cut it.
>>
>>There has to be meat in a beef burger.
>
>
Randy wrote:
> A surrendered life is evidence that someone truly trusted
> Christ,
>but salvation isn't a reward for living a surrendered
> life.
That is a thought that issues from your heart, not mine.
Randy wrote:
>One has to have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit
> to live a yielded life to God (Roman 6), and even then they
> struggle with their sin nature (Romans 7) till glory (Romans
> 8).
You have not surrendered your life so all you are doing is speaking
theology.
Truly trusting Christ (surrender) is everything, everything falls perfectly
into place from there. Not anything of ourselves for it is all about Him.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not
seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness
is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from
the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might
destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth
in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Those words are true as true can be but only known to those who have had the
experience. There is few that know it for the many do not surrender their
all to a worthy God. Many are called, but few are chosen for that very
reason.
You are just talking Randy about that which you do not know, like the
original poster who is ignorant of the Lord's glory and the power of His
salvation.
Jesus is perfect, and so are those that are His because He has made them so.
Their hearts were scarlet but now are white as snow for He has brought
purity and made them pure.
No-one will find fault (justly) in them from their day to the day evermore.
Praise the Lord. Worthy is the Lord.
Michael Christ
Mike Painter
>
> defined.
Such fun. Start with a definition that eliminates at least 3/4ths of the
people in the world who claim they are christians, then watch the True
Christian tell the other True Christians that they are not True Christians
becaasue they don't read things the way he or she does.
<<kêllÿ>>
> You're the one who doesn't get it. Homosexuality is sin,
Really? As of yet, you haven't provided one New Testament Scripture
that says exactly that - although you keep trying to do so, you have
failed miserably. So far, all you have been able to provide are
Scriptures that refer to heterosexuals behaving homosexually when they
are not homosexual, temple prosititution, and idolatry.
> and
> any homosexual,who refuses to repent and accept the atonement
> Christ made, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Yes, that is correct. And any heterosexual as well.
In my case, however, I had no idea I was a homosexual at the time I
accepted Christ's atonement and was born-again. While I knew I was
different from my friends when it came to being attracted to the
opposite sex, I had no clue that being a lesbian was even possible.
So...I have to ask you again - do you believe in once-saved-always-
saved or do you not? Or are you going to once again dare to call that
which God calls cleansed, unclean?
> That
> doesn't mean you got saved and lost it, it means you were
> deceived when you thought you were saved in the first place,
Sorry - but one isn't "mistaken" or "deceived" about being born-again
- especially when so many other Christians are witness to the
miraculous transformation of one's life and soul. Remember...only God
knows the heart - why do you continually claim to know what another's
heart looks like?
> since no one who remains a homosexual ever trusted Christ for
> salvation in the first place.
Hmmm...and you find that *exactly as stated* in the Bible where...?
> Have you heard Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him
> from the dead? Did you know God saves you from hell and
> gives you eternal life through faith in this finished work alone,
> not your merits (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess.
> 1:8-9)? This is so man cannot boast, and God alone gets the
> glory (Eph. 2:8-9).
I am simultaneously saddened and amused by your signature, Randy.
You just got finished telling me that I was never saved in the first
place (apparently God made a mistake when I was prompted by the Holy
Spirit to put faith in His Son's atonement - He must have gotten the
address wrong and meant to do that for one of my neighbors, instead),
and here in your sig you state, "God saves you from hell and gives you
eternal life through faith in this finished work alone".
In the interest of full disclosure, you might want to add a disclaimer
at the bottom of your obviously disingenuous and deceptive statement.
Because, according to your understanding of the Bible, God isn't
powerful enough to know who He saves and sometimes gets it wrong -
accidentally confirming in His Word that those who aren't up to Randy
Young's standards are born-again for more than three decades. Are you
sure you're not a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon...?
Sensi
> On Jul 1, 12:43 pm, Sensi <sensi4si...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> Sensi:
>> So you don't think the Holy spirit dwells in everyone?
>
> No. That's impossible because of mankind's innate sinfulness. We're
> all born with it and without being born of water and of the Spirit,
> the Holy Spirit cannot reside within.
Sensi:
God is always with you? No?
With others? Yes?
Being born of water and spirit means what to you?
Water from a basin, a river, a sprinkling from a priest, a
a preacher baptizing you in the name of Jesus?
Does that make you born again?
This Holy Spirit is contained only in people who are not
sinful? Are you sinful?
>
>> Nor does Salvation by grace come about if you practice being
>> Christ-like?
>
> No. Salvation is a gift from God and cannot be worked for.
Sensi:
Salvation is a gift that requires that you become
responsible for how you handle this gift.
When you ask for the gift what do you do with it?
>
>>>> and not every person in every
>>>> religions wants to follow as asked to do. We'd rather follow
>>>> an idol instead of practicing the practice.
>>>> A spiritual journey is constantly learning how to save
>>>> yourself from the selfish self.
>
>>> A "spiritual journey" isn't necessarily a Christ-led journey.
>
Sensi:
Why not? Christ is a way of life and all can enter in.
>> Sensi:
>> Christ is a way of life.
>
> No, Jesus Christ is *the* Way and *the* Truth, and *the* Life, and no
> one comes to the Father (God) but through Him (see John 14:6).
>
Sensi:
Through him.......Through means going through a process. You
don't become an overnight success and your through.. Do you
see yourself as
through.. Through with learning, growing, gathering
understandings, through practicing, or are you through with
having to do those things? When you're through you're done.
Are you through?
>> Living out Christ is far better
>> than preaching that the way of Christ was only in Jesus.
>
> Is that found in the Bible?
>
Christ be with you, Christ in us... You can check for yourself.
>>>> Giving and receiving
>>>> Honor and obey
>>>> Trust in the good
>>>> Become the fruits of the spirit.
>
>>> There's no such thing as the "fruits" of the Spirit - only the Fruit
>>> of the Spirit. And even then, that is received only through the power
>>> of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God through faith in the Bibilical
>>> Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
>
>> Aye on the plural. I was thinking of Gal 5:22 where the
>> fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
>> gentleness, goodness, faith.
>
> Same here - and Galatians 5:22 says "fruit of the Spirit", not
> "fruits" of the spirit.
>
Sensi:
Ok, not a problem if you don't like plural I'll keep it
singular for you.
>>>> Those things don't happen over night, it takes time and
>>>> practice...
>
>>> No, it doesn't. The Fruit of the Spirit isn't obtained through works
>>> *lest any man should boast).
>
>> It takes practice and work to get there.
>
> No, it doesn't
Sensi:
Ok... be that way...But I would like to ask you this.
If you don't have to practice such things why are you always
on Vera's case for practicing what she does?
She says she's saved so that gives her the authority to
"work" her whip and sword as if she can do no wrong works.
Randy doesn't honor your salvation, he sees you as an
unrepentant sinner who does wrong works with your body.
You don't honor his salvation,
Vera shoots Diana with some horrible accusations and she's
saved too... So there are no works, no practice? no going
through Christ to do good works?
Everybody behave like a heathen cause after all they're all
born of the Holy Spirit and can only do Holy Works just like
Jesus did.. ??????/
Salvation has become a poison and it was never intended to
be used as a weapon but as a way of living that ones soul
would find comfort and peace.
>
>> Perhaps discipline sounds better to you than works
>
> "Discipline" has nothing to do with "works".
Sensi:
Whatever.... I'm not going to argue with your works or
your discipline factor. You can work that out yourself.
>
>> if you
>> only think works is associated with working for something.
>
> That's exactly what "works" means in the Biblical sense. The grace we
> receive from God as a result of our acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice and
> atonement for our sin through faith is a gift and cannot be obtained
> through works (see Ephesians 2:8-9).
Sensi:
That doesn't mean you don't have to do good works but since
you're saved just behave anyway you desire cause afterall
you'll be rewarded for bad behavior.
>
>>> No - it's 70x7 and that is a model for mankind, not an example of
>>> God's forgiveness.
>
>> God's forgiveness is far greater. The point of Jesus
>> teaching us to forgive 70X7 is a form of salvation.
>
> No it's not.
Sensi:
Don't practice forgiveness then. if it's too much work then
don't do it.
>
>> You *save* yourself a lot of misery.
>
> If you're trying for a play on words to get a point across...the point
> was lost.
Sensi:
Many things get lost in the shuffle so I'm not surprised.
Maybee
"<<k�ll�>>" <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:be6b75fe-1059-404f...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 1, 6:49 pm, Randy � <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You're the one who doesn't get it. Homosexuality is sin,
So far, all you have been able to provide are
Scriptures that refer to heterosexuals behaving homosexually when they
are not homosexual, temple prosititution, and idolatry.
----------------
Sorry, scripture doesn't refer to such a thing............ this is a stretch
of your imagination!
<<kêllÿ>>
> >> Sensi:
> >> So you don't think the Holy spirit dwells in everyone?
> > No. That's impossible because of mankind's innate sinfulness. We're
> > all born with it and without being born of water and of the Spirit,
> > the Holy Spirit cannot reside within.
> Sensi:
> God is always with you? No?
God is always with me. I am one of His own since I asked Him into my
heart and my life more than 34 years ago.
> With others? Yes?
Of course with others.
> Being born of water and spirit means what to you?
> Water from a basin, a river, a sprinkling from a priest, a
> a preacher baptizing you in the name of Jesus?
What Jesus was referring to (when He was explaining what he meant by
"born again" to Nicodemus) was physical birth (born of water) and
spiritual rebirth (born of the Spirit).
> Does that make you born again?
Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and His atonement are what makes
one born again.
> This Holy Spirit is contained only in people who are not
> sinful? Are you sinful?
I didn't say that. But, in answer to your (snarky-sounding)
question...
The Holy Spirit is within everyone who has been born-again. People
who have been born-again are still human, therefore, they still sin.
The consequences of the sin, however, is different than before being
born-again.
> >> Nor does Salvation by grace come about if you practice being
> >> Christ-like?
> > No. Salvation is a gift from God and cannot be worked for.
> Sensi:
> Salvation is a gift that requires that you become
> responsible for how you handle this gift.
And you know this how...?
> When you ask for the gift what do you do with it?
You don't ask for it, it is just given. Here's how it works - Jesus
stands at the door and knocks, but you didn't necessarily ask Him to
come to the door. If you open the door and allow Him entrance, then
He's there and He's never leaving. You don't do anything with Him,
it's what *He* does with you. He's inside and wants to clean house -
you don't help Him, you just let Him.
It's not about *you* - it's about *Him*. Get it?
> >>> A "spiritual journey" isn't necessarily a Christ-led journey.
> Sensi:
> Why not? Christ is a way of life and all can enter in.
No. Judas "entered in", but he didn't get it, either.
> >> Sensi:
> >> Christ is a way of life.
> > No, Jesus Christ is *the* Way and *the* Truth, and *the* Life, and no
> > one comes to the Father (God) but through Him (see John 14:6).
> Sensi:
> Through him.......Through means going through a process.
No, it doesn't mean "through a process". It means that Jesus Christ
is an advocate for you with the Father. Without Him as your advocate,
you're lost. You can't approach God on your own without Jesus going
first for you - that's why Christians, when they pray, say, "In Jesus'
Name".
> You don't become an overnight success and your through.. Do you
> see yourself as
> through.. Through with learning, growing, gathering
> understandings, through practicing, or are you through with
> having to do those things? When you're through you're done.
> Are you through?
Nope. And I never said, nor implied, I thought I was. As I stated
earlier, we start learning when we're born and if we're wise don't
stop learning until we physically die.
> >> Living out Christ is far better
> >> than preaching that the way of Christ was only in Jesus.
> > Is that found in the Bible?
> Christ be with you, Christ in us... You can check for yourself.
But that isn't what you said above. You said, "Living out Christ is
far better
than preaching that the way of Christ was only in Jesus." - that's not
even close to what you tried to turn it into with, "Christ be with
you, Christ in us". And, BTW...it's customary for the one making the
claim to take on the onus of providing proof for what they have
claimed (saying, "you can check for yourself" doesn't cut it)
So...I'm asking you again - is your claim of "Living out Christ is far
better
than preaching that the way of Christ was only in Jesus", as far as
you know, found in the Bible?
> >> Aye on the plural. I was thinking of Gal 5:22 where the
> >> fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
> >> gentleness, goodness, faith.
> > Same here - and Galatians 5:22 says "fruit of the Spirit", not
> > "fruits" of the spirit.
> Sensi:
> Ok, not a problem if you don't like plural I'll keep it
> singular for you.
It's not a matter of what I "like", it's a matter of that's not what
the Bible says.
> >>>> Those things don't happen over night, it takes time and
> >>>> practice...
> >>> No, it doesn't. The Fruit of the Spirit isn't obtained through works
> >>> *lest any man should boast).
> >> It takes practice and work to get there.
> > No, it doesn't
> Sensi:
> Ok... be that way...But I would like to ask you this.
>
> If you don't have to practice such things why are you always
> on Vera's case for practicing what she does?
That question doesn't even come close to resembling what you said
earlier. You said, "It takes practice and work to get there."
Practicing what one does (whether good or bad) is human endeavor and
has absolutely nothing to do with that which comes from the Spirit of
God.
> She says she's saved so that gives her the authority to
> "work" her whip and sword as if she can do no wrong works.
> Randy doesn't honor your salvation, he sees you as an
> unrepentant sinner who does wrong works with your body.
Yeah...and?
> You don't honor his salvation,
Wrong. I have never, *ever* said that Randy isn't a born-again
believer in Jesus Christ.
> Vera shoots Diana with some horrible accusations and she's
> saved too... So there are no works, no practice? no going
> through Christ to do good works?
One does good works *because* of being prompted by the Spirit to do
them - not because you want to make God happy. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
says, "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is
laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation
with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work
will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be
revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each
man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he
will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer
loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
Our righteousness compared to the righteousness of the Lord is as
nothing. The Apostle Paul said, "As it is written, there is none
righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10) and he said that "All have
sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). We become
truly righteous not through our own righteousness or works, but
through the power of Christ's righteousness. Therefore, to become more
like Christ we must partake of the divine nature of Christ (2 Peter
1:4) and His righteousness. There is a righteousness of men and a
righteousness of God. In Isaiah 64:6, Isaiah was referring to the
righteousness of men when he wrote, "We are all as an unclean thing,
and all our righteousness are as filthy rags."
> Everybody behave like a heathen cause after all they're all
> born of the Holy Spirit and can only do Holy Works just like
> Jesus did.. ??????/
Your sarcasm is noted and not welcome. If you're seriously looking
for answers to your questions, let me know. Otherwise, I feel like
I've just wasted a whole bunch of time.
> Salvation has become a poison and it was never intended to
> be used as a weapon but as a way of living that ones soul
> would find comfort and peace.
That's not God's fault. His Word still remains and remains true.
What you are assigning to salvation through Christ is neither Biblical
nor true.
> >> Perhaps discipline sounds better to you than works
> > "Discipline" has nothing to do with "works".
> Sensi:
> Whatever.... I'm not going to argue with your works or
> your discipline factor. You can work that out yourself.
Gee...thanks (???) As if you ever had a right to argue with anything
in my life that is mine...
> >> if you
> >> only think works is associated with working for something.
> > That's exactly what "works" means in the Biblical sense. The grace we
> > receive from God as a result of our acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice and
> > atonement for our sin through faith is a gift and cannot be obtained
> > through works (see Ephesians 2:8-9).
> Sensi:
> That doesn't mean you don't have to do good works but since
> you're saved just behave anyway you desire cause afterall
> you'll be rewarded for bad behavior.
I never said that.
> >>> No - it's 70x7 and that is a model for mankind, not an example of
> >>> God's forgiveness.
> >> God's forgiveness is far greater. The point of Jesus
> >> teaching us to forgive 70X7 is a form of salvation.
> > No it's not.
> Sensi:
> Don't practice forgiveness then. if it's too much work then
> don't do it.
You like strawmen, dontcha?
> >> You *save* yourself a lot of misery.
> > If you're trying for a play on words to get a point across...the point
> > was lost.
> Sensi:
> Many things get lost in the shuffle so I'm not surprised.
I'm happy for ya.
Chuck
> On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:57:00 -0800,
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article <mptm45d5ve7lolfqp...@4ax.com>,> No.
>
> And we know that in all things God works for the good of those
> who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
> For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to
> the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among
> many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those
> he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also
> glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If
> God is for us, who can be against us? (Romans 8:28-31 NIV)
>
> God has already glorified everyone He justifies. You can't
> have someone get justified without also getting glorified. If
> someone ends up as an unbeliever, then they were never a
> believer to begin with.
>
> The only way you can lose salvation, is if salvation depends,
> even in the slightest, on your merits and work, instead of
> God' sovereign grace, through faith in Christ's death and
> resurrection. So to propose you can get saved, then lose it,
> is to propose that salvation is not by grace, through faith,
> apart from works, through faith in Christ's work alone, but
> also by human merit. Otherwise, "grace is no more grace, and
> works are no more works".
>
> The doctrine that salvation is by grace, through faith, not by
> man's works or merits, is clearly established in a large body
> of Scripture (Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, etc.). Contrary
> interpretations of random verse snippets here and there (e.g.
> Heb. 6; James, etc.) is not a sound method of interpretation.
> If a doctrine is clearly established in a large body of
> Scripture, you don't then override that with a contrary
> interpretation of a less clear body of Scripture, or try to
> force the large, clear body of doctrine to conform to the
> proposed, contrary interpretation from the smaller, less clear
> body of doctrine. Rather, you interpret the smaller, less
> clear, in light of the truth clearly revealed in the larger
> body.
Romans 13:11 (NKJV)
11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
Matthew 10:22 (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth
to the end shall be saved.
1 Peter 1:13-16 (NKJV)
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope
fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus
Christ;
14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as
in your ignorance;
15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."
All these testify to the fact salvation is the *hope* of the believer; a
future event awaiting those who endure to the end, not the present
possession of the believer when they first believe.
Shouldn't we then make a distinction between "believers" and the "elect
according to the foreknowledge of God"; those whom God has "predestined
according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the
counsel of his will (1 Peter 1:2, Eph. 1:11)? Certainly the elect cannot
possibly lose their salvation, and only the elect will be saved, but who
knows who the elect are except God?
Chuck
>
> --
> Have you heard Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him
> from the dead? Did you know God saves you from hell and
> gives you eternal life through faith in this finished work alone,
> not your merits (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess.
> 1:8-9)? This is so man cannot boast, and God alone gets the
> glory (Eph. 2:8-9).
Chuck
On Jul 1, 10:09 am, Randy � <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:02:17 -0700 (PDT),
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article
>
>
>
>
>
> <<k�ll�>> <rosie_be...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 1, 8:15 am, Randy <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:57:00 -0800,
> >> > In newsgroup "alt.bible",
>
> >Interesting because on numerous occasions, you have essentially
> >refused to answer this question when I have asked it of you. You have
> >claimed on several occasions that I am degenerate, that I am not saved
> >but going to hell. Everytime I have given you my testimony of
> >salvation (that I was saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ on
> >February 13, 1975 when I was 14 years old) and then asked you how it
> >is possible I was saved at one time but now somehow not saved (I have
> >even asked you point-blank if you believe one can lose their
> >salvation), you have danced and dodged and hemmed and hawed. In fact,
> >on numerous occasions, I have quoted the exact same verses as you have
> >above (Romans 8:28-31). On the whole, when I have presented these
> >verses to you as proof that one cannot lose their salvation and asked
> >you to explain how I can be saved at one time in my life but now no
> >longer am saved (according to you), you have danced and dodged some
> >more - and ultimately just stopped responding to my direct questions.
>
> >Yet now...you say definitively that one cannot lose their salvation -
> >so which is it?
>
> >His Word that is firm and unshakable or do you have a belief in a god
> >whose word is changable depending on his moods and his likes and
> >dislikes and those he favors above others (as you seem to be)? Is
> >your God a Father who keeps His promises or a god who, like a man who
> >will lie, is double-minded and unstable in all his ways? (see James
> >1:8)
>
> The fact that once a person is saved, they are always saved
> (which I have always maintained in here), does not apply to
Kelly:
Really? How is it possible that those who believe in and trust the
Word of God and trust in a confess Jesus Christ as Lord and accept His
atonement for their sins as outlined in the Gospels can be anything
but saved? Are you not familiar with Acts 10:15?
Chuck:
Here's how:
Jeremiah 17:9-10 (KJV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can
know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man
according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
You have God's word for the fact you can't know your own heart until God
tests it and you see the results. You loved your sexual orientation and sex
drive more than God's calling and your first love of him. He tested you, so
you could see that you do, and YOU proved to YOURSELF that you do by
following that drive and rejecting him..
1 John 2:19 (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of
us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they
might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
In context John is speaking specifically of false teachers, but the
principle extends to any who make an original confession of faith, only
later to apostacize due to loving something...anything...more than their
first love.
It took me a while to understand the justice here, Kelly. If, as Jeremiah
says, the believer cannot know with any certainty whether or not she truly
believes, and is thus promied salvation by God, where then is the believer's
security in faith? How can they possibly know they are believers if we can,
and do, lie to ourselves as suggest by God's word? And the answer is given
to us by Jeremiah and John. God tests our faith with a myriad of things in
the world, to allow us to know our own hearts by what we do. If we go after
the things of the world God uses to test our hearts, our love, and our
faith, then we can know these things were delusions; that we were lying to
ourselves about believing and trusting, and we do not have any promise from
God of eternal life. We cannot claim God has predestined us according to
his foreknowledge, nor can we claim God's sustaining grace that is the
believer's only hope of eventual salvation.
But if when we are tested by God we continue to love the things of God and
reject the things of the world, then we can know that our love is real; that
we are not deluding ourselves with vain imaginings about what we are and how
we feel and what motivates us.
> Anyone weed
> can claim they trusted Christ, but if they never repent of
> things like homosexuality, if reveals they were never really
> saved to begin with:
Kelly:
I see. So you are saying that even though I was know I was born-again
on February 13, 1975 because I believed in and trusted God and His
Word when I was presented with and read John 3:16 (amongst other New
Testament Scripture) that because I am a lesbian today (even though at
the time I knew nothing of what being a lesbian was on February 13,
1975), my trust in Jesus and belief in my salvation based on Acts
16:31 and Romans 10:9 was just some huge cosmic joke and that no one
can believe what the Bible says about salvation?
Chuck:
Kelly, God never takes away your free will, and being born again is a
prerequisite at John 3, not a guarantee . Read the parable of the Sower and
the good ground. Out of the four examples of ground that were no good, how
many received the seed originally? Two out of three, right? When the cares
of this world sprung up in your life, they grew up and choked the seed you
received with such joy on Feburary 13, 1975 so that it withered and became
unfruitful. At some point you ceased walking in God's Spirit, and instead
chose to go back into Egypt and walk according to your fleshly desires. You
forgot that:
Romans 8:7-8 (KJV)
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to
the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Return to your first love, Kelly. Remember that not all who escaped through
the water with Moses came to the Promised Land; that that entire generation
died in the desert, never having received the promise even though God
brought them up out of Egypt. Don't end your life by dying in the desert
clinging onto your idols of flesh and the world. Return to your first love
and enter into the kingdom of God.
Titus 1:1-3 (KJV)
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the
faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after
godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the
world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is
committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Paul tells us it is "according to the faith of God's elect", which involves
the "acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness" which they do "in
the hope of eternal life". Look at your test results to date, Kelly, and
take courage that God is still extending to you his gift:
Psalms 95:6-11 (NKJV)
6 Oh come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before the LORD our
Maker.
7 For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture, And the sheep of
His hand. Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 "Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, As in the day of trial in
the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me; They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation, And said, 'It is a
people who go astray in their hearts, And they do not know My ways.'
11 So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "
Chuck
I
> Titus 1:1-3 (KJV)
There Chucky Stamford goes again quoting another FORGERY as though it has
some validity in the real world!
Titus was written 100 -150 CE when Paul was DEAD!
Chucky Stamford cannot answer me directly as his wife
thinks that his dogmatic fundamentalist faith is SO fragile that I might
destroy it ... and I will!
New Testiclemint
--
THEOCRACY IS DEAD! LONG LIVE THE SIN!
https://www.cafepress.com/YbeLIEve
Got Conscience?
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <TnY2m.1583$%02....@newsfe15.iad>,
"Chuck" <shells...@cox.net> wrote:
Romans shows God saves us from the penalty (1 - 5), power (6 -
7), and presence (8) of our sin, through faith in Christ's
death and resurrection. In our standing with God in Christ,
all occur instantly and permanently, upon faith in Christ. 1
John 5:13, for example, says eternal life is in the Son, and
that those who believe on His name, "have" eternal life, right
here, right now, in the present tense.
In our daily walk however, we do not experience complete
freedom from our sin nature, for example, until Christ's
return (e.g. 1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 4:13-18). Romans 13 is
probably referring to that experience of being saved from the
very presence of our sin nature, the corruptions of creation,
false teachers, etc, when we die, or Christ returns.
>Matthew 10:22 (KJV)
>22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth
>to the end shall be saved.
1) It's probably referring to salvation from false teachers
persecutions, and the coming judgment of God in Revelation
19ff. Matthew 24:13 uses the same language to refer to the
remnant of Jews who will survive the Tribulation.
2) It shows who will be saved (they will be the ones who will
be seen enduring to the end, and remaining faithful till
death), rather than how they got saved. Enduring to the end
is the Hallmark of true believers, because God works in them
to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13), an has
predestined that those He justified will also be glorified
(Rom. 8:30).
4) This is a perfect example of how taking a verse by itself,
can seem to promote an idea contrary to what we find clearly
established in whole books of Scripture directly addressing
the subject of the believers' spiritual salvation.
>1 Peter 1:13-16 (NKJV)
>13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope
>fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus
>Christ;
Which, as we see from Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 15, and 1
Thessalonians 4:13-18, is deliverance from the presence of our
sin nature, the corruption of our flesh, false teachers, etc.,
at the translation of our bodies, or glorification when Christ
returns.
>14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as
>in your ignorance;
>15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
>16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."
>
>
>
>All these testify to the fact salvation is the *hope* of the believer; a
>future event awaiting those who endure to the end, not the present
>possession of the believer when they first believe.
In our standing with God, in Christ, we receive justification,
sanctification, and glorification, immediately and
permanently, upon faith in Him (Romans 1 - 5; Romans 8:30),
and already "have" eternal life (1 John 5:13), which is Christ
living in us, the hope of glory (Rom. 5:2; Col. 1:27). Old
things _are_ passed away, all things _are_ become new (2 Cor.
5:17), we _have_ been translated from the kingdom of darkness
to the kingdom of light (Col. 1:13), etc.
As far as what we actually experience in our walk, however, we
do not actually _experience_ salvation from things like the
very presence of our sin nature, the corruptions of our flesh,
false teachers, tests and trials, etc., until we die or Christ
returns and translates our bodies, even though it's already a
done deal in our positional standing with God. This is often
referred to as the difference between "positional" and
"practical" sanctification/salvation.
>Shouldn't we then make a distinction between "believers" and the "elect
>according to the foreknowledge of God"; those whom God has "predestined
>according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the
>counsel of his will (1 Peter 1:2, Eph. 1:11)? Certainly the elect cannot
>possibly lose their salvation, and only the elect will be saved, but who
>knows who the elect are except God?
Yes, I believe that some of these passages are describing
things from the outward perspective, from the standpoint of
what people will see and experience, rather than the
individuals' positional standing with God.
Michael Christ
I know why you people never talk about being crucified, losing your life,
offering up your body as a living sacrifice. You prefer to be positionally
comfortable in your sin.
You haven't got a chance where you stand because you stand in compromise and
excuse and lack of all. Lord, Lord you will cry, didn't I...and He will say
to you...you didn't give me your life.
Your human reasoning and faithless eschatology will not save you. You have
no idea who you are dealing with. He is a God of fire, fiercely righteous,
and you think you can cruise on through in Christ-blood positional
okayism???!!!
You are mad, deluded and take God for a tool (both meanings).
Michael Christ
"Randy �" <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fo0p451gv62qi80v5...@4ax.com...
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article
<<k嚙締l嚙�> <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>God is always with me. I am one of His own since I asked Him into my
>heart and my life more than 34 years ago.
When God saves someone through faith in Christ, He doesn't
just save them from the penalty of their sin (Romans 1 - 5),
but he also saves them from the power of sin in their daily
life (Romans 6 - 7), and ultimately will save them from the
very presence of their sin nature, in glory (Romans 8).
Thus, if God has truly saved someone from the penalty of their
sin, there will be a corresponding salvation from the power of
sin in that individual's daily life. If a person abides in a
life-long habit of glaring sin, does not repent of it, or even
acknowledge it is sin, when directly confronted with the plain
teaching of Scripture, then that is strong evidence the person
was deceived for thinking they had ever really trusted Christ
in the first place (cf. James).
Because everyone God saves from the penalty of their sin, He
also saves from the power of sin in their daily lives, we may
conclude that those who remain homosexuals, will not inherit
eternal life. Not because they got saved, then lost it, but
because we find they never really trusted Christ in the first
place, as evidenced by the fact they habitually never got
saved from the power of sin in their daily life:
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom
of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual
offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor
slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV)
Anyone who takes the Bible seriously, knows damn well that
homosexuality is an abomination, not a lifestyle which God
would ever find acceptable. Your attempts to justify
homosexuality, instead of trust Christ's atonement for it and
change your behavior, are a ridiculous, glaring revelation of
the fact you are not actually trusting in Christ as your
justification from sin.
Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of
the city of Sodom嚙箭oth young and old嚙編urrounded the house.
They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you
tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with
them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind
him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
(Genesis 19:4-7)
"'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be
put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(Leviticus 20:13)
While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of
the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they
shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man
who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner
of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends,
don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this
disgraceful thing. (Judges 19:22-23)
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped
and served created things rather than the Creator嚙緩ho is
forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to
shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual
relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also
abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with
lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other
men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their
error. (Romans 1:25-27)
(1 Corinthians 6:9) Do you not know that the wicked will not
inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the
sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but
for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy
and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers,
for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing
homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And
it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that
conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed
God, which he entrusted to me. (1 Timothy 1:9-11)
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns
gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They
serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of
eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
On 21 Jul 2006 11:18:48 -0700,
in article
<1153505928....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
"Whosoever" <onthe...@verizon.net> wrote:
**************************************************************
No, the Bible does not forbid same-sex relations in a
committed, loving, monogamous relationship. It speaks of
homosexual-style rape in Genesis (but that isn't why Sodom was
destroyed), it speaks of anal-penetration in Leviticus (which
is something plenty of heterosexuals partake in), and it
speaks of same-sex temple prostitution in the New Testament.
None of these have anything to do with committed, loving,
monogamous homosexuality.
**************************************************************
On 29 Jul 2006 23:25:00 -0700,
in article
<1154240700.1...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"3Wh嚙編嚙箴ver3" <onthe...@verizon.net> wrote:
**************************************************************
I never said a word about my homosexuality in these groups
until you thought you had the right to "expose" me.
**************************************************************
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <h2hafj$6q9$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
"Maybee" <may...@home.com> wrote:
This is the kind of thing that exposes you as a glaring,
deliberate liar:
Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of
the city of Sodom�both young and old�surrounded the house.
They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you
tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with
them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind
him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
(Genesis 19:4-7)
"'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be
put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(Leviticus 20:13)
While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of
the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they
shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man
who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner
of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends,
don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this
disgraceful thing. (Judges 19:22-23)
They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped
and served created things rather than the Creator�who is
forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to
shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual
relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also
abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with
lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other
men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their
error. (Romans 1:25-27)
(1 Corinthians 6:9) Do you not know that the wicked will not
inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the
sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but
for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy
and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers,
for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing
homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And
it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that
conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed
God, which he entrusted to me. (1 Timothy 1:9-11)
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns
gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They
serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of
eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
--
Have you heard Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him
from the dead? Did you know God saves you from hell and
gives you eternal life through faith in this finished work alone,
not your merits (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess.
1:8-9)? This is so man cannot boast, and God alone gets the
glory (Eph. 2:8-9).
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <%f03m.2197$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
>What a load theological man-made scripturally fleshly suitability.
Thanks for the preface to your comments below.
>I know why you people never talk about being crucified, losing your life,
>offering up your body as a living sacrifice. You prefer to be positionally
>comfortable in your sin.
That's a complete lie and misrepresentation. Not only does it
not follow that if God gives you a secure, saved, and
sanctified position in Christ, that you will remain in your
sin, and fail to walk in obedience and sacrifice, but our
practical sanctification, and the personal experience of
sacrificing, taking up you cross, and following Christ,
_depends_ _entirely_ on our positional standing in Christ, and
God's sovereign purpose to bring us to glory.
Read Romans 6, for example. It is only _because_ of our
position in Christ, having been baptized into His death to sin
and resurrection to newness of life by the Holy Spirit, that
we obtain the power to yield to Him in our daily walk.
It is only because our position is secure in Christ, and
because God has predestined to bring us to glory, that we will
be saved not only from the penalty of our sin, but also from
the power and presence of it, or that anyone can be assured
they will also walk in faith, obedience, and personal
sacrifice during their life, instead of being separated from
the love of God.
It would be impossible to live a life yielded to God, and in
sacrifice for Him, without first having a secure, positional
standing and enablement in Christ.
::: Jesus is LORD :::
Randy � <pulpi...@gmail.com> typed:
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 23:41:23 -0700,
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article <h2hafj$6q9$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Maybee" <may...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> "<<k�ll�>>" <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:be6b75fe-1059-404f...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 1, 6:49 pm, Randy � <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You're the one who doesn't get it. Homosexuality is sin,
>>
>> So far, all you have been able to provide are
>> Scriptures that refer to heterosexuals behaving homosexually when
>> they
>> are not homosexual, temple prosititution, and idolatry.
>> ----------------
>> Sorry, scripture doesn't refer to such a thing............ this is a
>> stretch of your imagination!
>
>
> This is the kind of thing that exposes you as a glaring,
> deliberate liar:
>
> Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of
> They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you
> tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with
> them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind
> him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
> (Genesis 19:4-7)
>
>
> "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
> detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)
>
>
> If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
> of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be
> put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
> (Leviticus 20:13)
>
>
> While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of
> the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they
> shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man
> who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner
> of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends,
> don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this
> disgraceful thing. (Judges 19:22-23)
>
>
> They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped
> forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to
> shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual
> relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also
> abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with
> lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other
> men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their
> error. (Romans 1:25-27)
>
>
> (1 Corinthians 6:9) Do you not know that the wicked will not
> inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the
> sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
> prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
>
> We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but
> for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy
> and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers,
> for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing
> homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And
> it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that
> conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed
> God, which he entrusted to me. (1 Timothy 1:9-11)
>
>
> In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns
> gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They
> serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of
> eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
Amen.
Michael Christ
Theological jardon.
You don't love Him with all your heart.
Michael Christ
Michael Christ
Jargon...Randy.
Just jargon.
It doesn't give you full assurance, and never will.
Only a total love can do that...total.
Michael Christ
Maybee
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 23:41:23 -0700,
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article <h2hafj$6q9$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Maybee" <may...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>"<<k�ll�>>" <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:be6b75fe-1059-404f...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
>>On Jul 1, 6:49 pm, Randy � <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You're the one who doesn't get it. Homosexuality is sin,
>>
>> So far, all you have been able to provide are
>>Scriptures that refer to heterosexuals behaving homosexually when they
>>are not homosexual, temple prosititution, and idolatry.
>>----------------
>>Sorry, scripture doesn't refer to such a thing............ this is a
>>stretch
>>of your imagination!
>
>
> This is the kind of thing that exposes you as a glaring,
> deliberate liar:
Who, me?
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <ss13m.2207$ze1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
Do you accept Romans 6 as the word of God, or not? If so, it
plainly shows that you have to be baptized into Christ's death
and resurrection, by the Holy Spirit, before you can then
yield your members as instruments of righteousness to God. If
not, then what do you consider to be the inspired,
authoritative word of God?
>You don't love Him with all your heart.
It does not follow that if you have to have an established
position in Christ, before you can have God's power to yield
to Him and make personal sacrifices for him, that you are
therefore one who cannot or does not love God.
On the contrary, you cannot love God with a divine love, or
yield to Him with divine enablement or motives, unless you
already have Christ living in you, through an established
position in Him. All the epistles show that it is on the
basis of our established position in Christ, that we then walk
in Him.
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <Qx13m.2208$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
>Correction...
>
>Jargon...Randy.
>
>Just jargon.
>
>It doesn't give you full assurance, and never will.
On the contrary. The only way you can have full assurance of
God's love, is if He predestines you to glory (Romans
8:30ff.). That's how we know nothing will be able to separate
us from the love of God.
And the only way we can have divine love for God, and the
power to yield to Him in our daily walk, is by first having an
established position in Christ. All the epistles begin by
showing our established position in Christ, then exhort us to
walk according to that, not vise versa.
Read Romans 6.
>Only a total love can do that...total.
ibid. See Romans 8.
Michael Christ
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 20:53:52 -0700 (PDT),
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article
> <550be997-76a4-447d...@y17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you
> tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with
> them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind
> him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
> (Genesis 19:4-7)
>
>
> "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
> detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)
>
>
> If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
> of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be
> put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
> (Leviticus 20:13)
>
>
> While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of
> the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they
> shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man
> who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner
> of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends,
> don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this
> disgraceful thing. (Judges 19:22-23)
>
>
> They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped
> forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to
> shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual
> relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also
> abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with
> lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other
> men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their
> error. (Romans 1:25-27)
>
>
> (1 Corinthians 6:9) Do you not know that the wicked will not
> inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the
> sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
> prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
>
> We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but
> for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy
> and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers,
> for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing
> homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And
> it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that
> conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed
> God, which he entrusted to me. (1 Timothy 1:9-11)
>
> In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns
> gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They
> serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of
> eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
You are just not getting it, it is not about what a person does (the list is
endless), it is about what you haven't done. Surrendering your life to the
Lord is the line between [life], and not surrendering your life to the Lord
[death].
You can point your lovely finger at homosexuals or anything else all you
like, but it is meaningless shallow religious self-righteousness.
You will go to hell for what you haven't done, not for what you have done.
You have to lose your life...end of story. All the rest is just rhetoric.
How do you lose your life? You have to allow the Lord to lead you. You
will not know how without centering everything on Him; you can forget about
telling others how sinful they are.
Michael Christ
::: Jesus is LORD :::
Randy � <pulpi...@gmail.com> typed:
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:42:55 -0700 (PDT),
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article
> <183bb23e-dc93-49bb...@37g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>,
> <<k�ll�>> <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom
>>> of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
>>> idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual
>>> offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor
>>> slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
>>> (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV)
>>
>> Yeah...it would seem you still don't get it.
>
>
> You're the one who doesn't get it. Homosexuality is sin, and
> any homosexual,who refuses to repent and accept the atonement
> Christ made, will not inherit the kingdom of God. That
> doesn't mean you got saved and lost it, it means you were
> deceived when you thought you were saved in the first place,
> since no one who remains a homosexual ever trusted Christ for
> salvation in the first place.
Correct. But if she wanted to become a believer, she should ask God and
leave her exotic life style. He might have mercy on her if she is
serious. So far she has been playing Christianity without accepting the
entrance fee: her life.
<<kêllÿ>>
<snipped Randy cursing and his redundant repetition of the same-ol-
same-ol hateful blind-guide stuff>
> We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but
> for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy
> and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers,
> for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing
> homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And
> it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that
> conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed
> God, which he entrusted to me. (1 Timothy 1:9-11)
I see absolutely nothing specific there regarding homosexuality (if
that's were you were going with it).
> In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns
> gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They
> serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of
> eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
Nope...nothing there specifically about homosexuality, either.
> On 21 Jul 2006 11:18:48 -0700,
> in article
> <1153505928.341106.75...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>, "Whosoever" <ontheska...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> **************************************************************
> No, the Bible does not forbid same-sex relations in a
> committed, loving, monogamous relationship. It speaks of
> homosexual-style rape in Genesis (but that isn't why Sodom was
> destroyed), it speaks of anal-penetration in Leviticus (which
> is something plenty of heterosexuals partake in), and it
> speaks of same-sex temple prostitution in the New Testament.
> None of these have anything to do with committed, loving,
> monogamous homosexuality.
> **************************************************************
Yeah...and? The incorrect teaching that Sodom and Gomorrah were
destroy *solely* because of homosexuality is wrong, wrong, wrong. It
doesn't even correspond with what Genesis says! As far as Leviticus
is concerned - we're talking about the Levitical holiness code and for
the *Levitical Priesthood* to remain "male" in order to remain as a
priest. The NT deals with temple prosititution and idolatry and
bisexuality. Natural, genetic, and born homosexuality is not covered
in the Bible. But, hey...neither is Down Syndrome...
> On 29 Jul 2006 23:25:00 -0700,
> in article
> <1154240700.178700.306...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "3Whösöever3" <ontheska...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> **************************************************************
> I never said a word about my homosexuality in these groups
> until you thought you had the right to "expose" me.
> **************************************************************
Do you think that you're proving something here? I rarely post
anything in Usenet that I wish I hadn't. I posted the above you
quoted from me then, and I would post it again today - if it needed to
be said.
<<kêllÿ>>
> >Sorry, scripture doesn't refer to such a thing............ this is a stretch
> >of your imagination!
> This is the kind of thing that exposes you as a glaring,
> deliberate liar:
I didn't write the above. Wanna try again?
> Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of
> the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house.
> They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you
> tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with
> them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind
> him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
> (Genesis 19:4-7)
Yeah...and? If you think Genesis 10:4-7 is talking about
homosexuality and not the rape of angels and inhospitality to
visitors, you've never done a study of these verses based on the
original Hebrew it was written in.
> "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
> detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)
>
> If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
> of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be
> put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
> (Leviticus 20:13)
Levitical Holiness Code specifically for the Levitical Priesthood.
> While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of
> the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they
> shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man
> who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner
> of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends,
> don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this
> disgraceful thing. (Judges 19:22-23)
Ibid (re: Genesis).
> They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped
> and served created things rather than the Creator—who is
> forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to
> shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual
> relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also
> abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with
> lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other
> men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their
> error. (Romans 1:25-27)
We've already been through this. I see you still think Romans 1 is
speaking of homosexuality and not temple prostitution and idolatry.
> (1 Corinthians 6:9) Do you not know that the wicked will not
> inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the
> sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
> prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
"homosexual offenders"? That was added in English waaay after Paul
died and is not a term from the original Greek.
> We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but
> for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy
> and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers,
> for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing
> homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And
> it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that
> conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed
> God, which he entrusted to me. (1 Timothy 1:9-11)
Nuh-uh. The Greek "arsenokoites" refers to shrine prostitution, not
natural homosexuality. Do the translators here think that Paul didn't
know what he was talking about? Do you?
> In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns
> gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They
> serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of
> eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
Still nothing about homosexuality. <yawn>
More same-ol-same-ol from Randy - this time without cursing, though...
<<kêllÿ>>
wrote:
> Correct. But if she wanted to become a believer, she should ask God and
> leave her exotic life style.
"Exotic life style"? Lol!
I live in a remote, rural area, in farm country in the midst of a
mountain valley and the nearest town has a population of under 800. I
go to work, and I come home. I go to church, and I come home. Every
other week I perform a church service in a nursing home. I don't go
to taverns or bars. Occasionally, I go out to dinner - to get
anything other than the typical American meat-and-potatoes, you have
to drive at least 25 miles to find it. There are no McDonald's or
Burger King fast-food places nearby. The nearest shopping mall and
cinema is 40 miles away, the largest city with a population over
200,000 is 100 miles away. I have a river flowing at the edge of my 3-
acre land parcel, salmon swimming in that river, bald eagles flying
overhead. I see mountain glaciers out my kitchen and dining room and
living room windows. Cougar, bear, deer, coyote, rabbit, fox, and elk
roam freely here throughout the year and my neighbor's geese make more
noise than the occasional farm equipment that comes down the country
road in front of my home. The noise from the road will be a little
more frequent as it is now the first phase of haying season.
Hardly an "exotic lifestyle", Vera.
> He might have mercy on her if she is
> serious.
God's mercy is for the unsaved, God's grace for the saved. I have
been saved for much longer than you have, Vera.
> So far she has been playing Christianity without accepting the
> entrance fee: her life.
There's no "entrance fee" to receive salvation from God. To suggest
such means you are negating that salvation is a *gift* from God. The
only price to be paid for salvation was Jesus' life - and He paid it
for you, same as He did for me. Salvation is not works-based, Vera.
You think yourself so wise, but it is so apparent that you have no
concept of what free-grace is all about.
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article
<<k�ll�>> <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On Jul 2, 3:55�am, Randy � <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Sorry, scripture doesn't refer to such a thing............ this is a stretch
>> >of your imagination!
>
>> This is the kind of thing that exposes you as a glaring,
>> deliberate liar:
>
>I didn't write the above. Wanna try again?
This kind of thing, right here, constitutes irrefutable,
documented proof you are a deliberate liar. That is an
excerpt of my reply to someone else's post, not yours. But
you had to manually exclude the persons' name to whom I was
responding, to make it appear as if I was talking to you.
Then, you try to portray that as me accusing you of something
you didn't write, as if I'm the one who is a liar.
You've done that time and again, editing the posts, to make
them appear to say something they do not.
>> Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of
>> the city of Sodom�both young and old�surrounded the house.
>> They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you
>> tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with
>> them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind
>> him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
>> (Genesis 19:4-7)
>
>Yeah...and? If you think Genesis 10:4-7 is talking about
>homosexuality and not the rape of angels and inhospitality to
>visitors, you've never done a study of these verses based on the
>original Hebrew it was written in.
Lot did not know they were going to try and force the men to
have sex with them when he said it was "wicked". All he knew
at that time, is that they were asking for it. If your lies
were true, Lot should have gone back into the house, told them
about the proposal, and asked them if they were willing. You
have just exposed yourself, again, as a conscience seared
liar, deliberately ignoring the plainest of Bible teachings.
>> "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
>> detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)
>>
>> If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
>> of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be
>> put to death; their blood shall be upon them. �
>> (Leviticus 20:13)
>
>Levitical Holiness Code specifically for the Levitical Priesthood.
That was not the code just for Levitical priests. It was for
all of God's people, whether alien, or native born. The
Levitical priests had more strict requirements, including such
things as that the high priest could only marry a virgin, not
a widow.
>> While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of
>> the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they
>> shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man
>> who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner
>> of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends,
>> don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this
>> disgraceful thing. �(Judges 19:22-23)
>
>Ibid (re: Genesis).
ibid. (Re: re: Genesis)
>> They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped
>> and served created things rather than the Creator�who is
>> forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to
>> shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual
>> relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also
>> abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with
>> lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other
>> men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their
>> error. �(Romans 1:25-27)
>
>We've already been through this. I see you still think Romans 1 is
>speaking of homosexuality and not temple prostitution and idolatry.
It says women exchanging natural sexual relations for
unnatural ones, and in "the same way" men were "inflamed with
lust for one another". That says nothing about temple
prostitution. It is plainly talking about both the burning
for and engaging in sex with someone of the same gender.
That you look right at that and try to contend it means
something it doesn't even say, only shows what a deliberate,
conscience seared liar you are, who deliberately misrepresents
both what the Bible and others say.
>> (1 Corinthians 6:9) �Do you not know that the wicked will not
>> inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the
>> sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
>> prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
>
>"homosexual offenders"? That was added in English waaay after Paul
>died and is not a term from the original Greek.
The context is the "sexually immoral", and the word means:
G733
arsenoko�tes;
gen. arsenoko�tou, masc. noun, from �rsen (G730), a male, and
ko�te (G2845), a bed. A man who lies in bed with another male,
a homosexual (1Co_6:9; 1Ti_1:10 [cf. Lev_18:22; Rom_1:27]).
(WordStudy)
G733
??????????????
arsenokoite?s
ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile)
self with mankind.
(Strongs)
G733
arsenokoite?s
Thayer Definition:
1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite,
homosexual
(Thayer)
I could not find one language source that didn't agree the
original Greek was talking about homosexuality, just as it is
translated in the NIV, and other versions.
>> We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but
>> for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy
>> and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers,
>> for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing
>> homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And
>> it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that
>> conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed
>> God, which he entrusted to me. �(1 Timothy 1:9-11)
>
>Nuh-uh. The Greek "arsenokoites" refers to shrine prostitution, not
>natural homosexuality.
That is not what the word means. Not one time is arsenokoites
used to refer to shrine prostitution. In fact, it is listed
separately from "whoremongers", which means prostitutes. It
comes from the roots "male", and "bed", and means to lie with
a man. If it were simply talking about a woman lying with a
male prostitute, or just prostitutes in general, that would
already have been covered by "whoremongers".
>Do the translators
Thanks for admitting that that is how virtually everyone
understands and translates the meaning of the word.
>here think that Paul didn't
>know what he was talking about? Do you?
You're the one who should answer that question, because you're
the one hoping people will be too stupid to notice what Paul
was talking about. In fact, that's the only hope you have,
since it's obvious you're promoting a glaring, false
interpretation to the most obvious of Bible statements.
>> In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns
>> gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They
>> serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of
>> eternal fire. �(Jude 1:7)
>
>Still nothing about homosexuality. <yawn>
Liar. See Re: re: Genesis above. What they did in seeking to
lie with people of the same sex, is called "sexual immorality
and perversion".
>More same-ol-same-ol from Randy - this time without cursing, though...
You have just proved you are a liar, right in the face of the
evidence.
<<kêllÿ>>
> >> This is the kind of thing that exposes you as a glaring,
> >> deliberate liar:
> >I didn't write the above. Wanna try again?
> This kind of thing, right here, constitutes irrefutable,
> documented proof you are a deliberate liar. That is an
> excerpt of my reply to someone else's post, not yours. But
> you had to manually exclude the persons' name to whom I was
> responding, to make it appear as if I was talking to you.
> Then, you try to portray that as me accusing you of something
> you didn't write, as if I'm the one who is a liar.
Calm down, dude. I thought you believed that was my comment - I was
not deliberately lying, accidentally lying or even partially lying.
What's more, I didn't try to make it appear as if you were a liar at
all - I merely said...
"I didn't write that. Wanna try again?"
Sheesh - you're quick to anger and point fingers...
> You've done that time and again, editing the posts, to make
> them appear to say something they do not.
Wrong. And here you go again, believing you know my heart and my
mind...
> >> Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of
> >> the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house.
> >> They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you
> >> tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with
> >> them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind
> >> him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
> >> (Genesis 19:4-7)
>
> >Yeah...and? If you think Genesis 10:4-7 is talking about
> >homosexuality and not the rape of angels and inhospitality to
> >visitors, you've never done a study of these verses based on the
> >original Hebrew it was written in.
>
> Lot did not know they were going to try and force the men to
> have sex with them when he said it was "wicked". All he knew
> at that time, is that they were asking for it. If your lies
> were true, Lot should have gone back into the house, told them
> about the proposal, and asked them if they were willing.
Oh...so now you know exactly what was going through Lot's mind and why
he did what he did and the logistics of it? Give me a break.
> You
> have just exposed yourself, again, as a conscience seared
> liar, deliberately ignoring the plainest of Bible teachings.
Whatever you say, Randy. I know I've touched a nerve with you - and
when that happens you go a nuts with your accusations and your temper
flares and you get out of control. This post is the perfect example
of your temper out of control.
> >> "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
> >> detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)
>
> >> If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
> >> of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be
> >> put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
> >> (Leviticus 20:13)
>
> >Levitical Holiness Code specifically for the Levitical Priesthood.
> That was not the code just for Levitical priests. It was for
> all of God's people, whether alien, or native born.
Really? Prove it. What's more, is it the holiness code for those who
are no longer under the Law?
> The
> Levitical priests had more strict requirements, including such
> things as that the high priest could only marry a virgin, not
> a widow.
Wow - you know a smattering of something about the Levitical Holiness
Code...
I'm not impressed.
> >> While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of
> >> the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they
> >> shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man
> >> who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner
> >> of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends,
> >> don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this
> >> disgraceful thing. (Judges 19:22-23)
>
> >Ibid (re: Genesis).
>
> ibid. (Re: re: Genesis)
Still clueless, I see.
> >> They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped
> >> and served created things rather than the Creator—who is
> >> forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to
> >> shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual
> >> relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also
> >> abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with
> >> lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other
> >> men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their
> >> error. (Romans 1:25-27)
>
> >We've already been through this. I see you still think Romans 1 is
> >speaking of homosexuality and not temple prostitution and idolatry.
>
> It says women exchanging natural sexual relations for
> unnatural ones, and in "the same way" men were "inflamed with
> lust for one another". That says nothing about temple
> prostitution. It is plainly talking about both the burning
> for and engaging in sex with someone of the same gender.
Temple prostitution and idolatry is exactly what is being addressed in
Romans 1. Don't believe me - look into some scholarly commentary on
Romans 1. Surely, you're not going to argue with reputable Biblical
scholars, are you? (yeah...I think you probably will)
> That you look right at that and try to contend it means
> something it doesn't even say, only shows what a deliberate,
> conscience seared liar you are, who deliberately misrepresents
> both what the Bible and others say.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...blah, blah, blah. Nothing new here from you - just
more of the same self-aggrandizing and gratification.
> >> (1 Corinthians 6:9) Do you not know that the wicked will not
> >> inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the
> >> sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
> >> prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
>
> >"homosexual offenders"? That was added in English waaay after Paul
> >died and is not a term from the original Greek.
>
> The context is the "sexually immoral", and the word means:
>
> G733
> arsenokoítes;
> gen. arsenokoítou, masc. noun, from ársen (G730), a male, and
> koíte (G2845), a bed. A man who lies in bed with another male,
> a homosexual (1Co_6:9; 1Ti_1:10 [cf. Lev_18:22; Rom_1:27]).
> (WordStudy)
>
> G733
> ??????????????
> arsenokoite?s
> ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
> From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile)
> self with mankind.
> (Strongs)
>
> G733
> arsenokoite?s
> Thayer Definition:
> 1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite,
> homosexual
> (Thayer)
>
> I could not find one language source that didn't agree the
> original Greek was talking about homosexuality, just as it is
> translated in the NIV, and other versions.
That's because you only cherry-picked the stuff that agrees with you.
There is a plethora of material, commentary and lexiconical aid that
doesn't say that at all. Of course, since none of it agrees with your
biases, you aren't going to acknolwedge it even exists.
Well...maybe you can understand this: there was no word during Paul's
time that meant specifically "male homosexual". The Greek word used
here means much more than what you are dishonestly providing above -
and you know it.
> >> We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but
> >> for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy
> >> and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers,
> >> for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing
> >> homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And
> >> it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that
> >> conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed
> >> God, which he entrusted to me. (1 Timothy 1:9-11)
>
> >Nuh-uh. The Greek "arsenokoites" refers to shrine prostitution, not
> >natural homosexuality.
>
> That is not what the word means. Not one time is arsenokoites
> used to refer to shrine prostitution. In fact, it is listed
> separately from "whoremongers", which means prostitutes. It
> comes from the roots "male", and "bed", and means to lie with
> a man. If it were simply talking about a woman lying with a
> male prostitute, or just prostitutes in general, that would
> already have been covered by "whoremongers".
Wrong again. Look deeper (this time beyond your current
understanding).
> >Do the translators
>
> Thanks for admitting that that is how virtually everyone
> understands and translates the meaning of the word.
>
> >here think that Paul didn't
> >know what he was talking about? Do you?
>
> You're the one who should answer that question, because you're
> the one hoping people will be too stupid to notice what Paul
> was talking about. In fact, that's the only hope you have,
> since it's obvious you're promoting a glaring, false
> interpretation to the most obvious of Bible statements.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...blah, blah, blah. More of the same from Randy-one-
note.
> >> In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns
> >> gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They
> >> serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of
> >> eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
>
> >Still nothing about homosexuality. <yawn>
>
> Liar. See Re: re: Genesis above. What they did in seeking to
> lie with people of the same sex, is called "sexual immorality
> and perversion".
"Sexual immorality and perversion" is a very broad spectrum. The
writer here is not implying homosexuality - the writer here is talking
about *all* sexual immorality and perversion (including those who
force their wives to have sex when they don't want to and when they
shouldn't be put at risk of pregnancy, Randy).
> >More same-ol-same-ol from Randy - this time without cursing, though...
>
> You have just proved you are a liar, right in the face of the
> evidence.
Not. Wanna start cursing again...? *That's* a *very* effective
witness for Jesus Christ, dontcha think?
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article
<<k�ll�>> <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>On Jul 2, 9:11�am, Randy � <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >> This is the kind of thing that exposes you as a glaring,
>> >> deliberate liar:
>
>> >I didn't write the above. �Wanna try again?
>
>> This kind of thing, right here, constitutes irrefutable,
>> documented proof you are a deliberate liar. �That is an
>> excerpt of my reply to someone else's post, not yours. �But
>> you had to manually exclude the persons' name to whom I was
>> responding, to make it appear as if I was talking to you.
>> Then, you try to portray that as me accusing you of something
>> you didn't write, as if I'm the one who is a liar.
>
>Calm down, dude. I thought you believed that was my comment - I was
>not deliberately lying, accidentally lying or even partially lying.
>What's more, I didn't try to make it appear as if you were a liar at
>all - I merely said...
>
>"I didn't write that. Wanna try again?"
>
>Sheesh - you're quick to anger and point fingers...
>
>> You've done that time and again, editing the posts, to make
>> them appear to say something they do not.
>
>Wrong. And here you go again, believing you know my heart and my
>mind...
Yes you have done it again and again.
>> >> Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of
>> >> the city of Sodom�both young and old�surrounded the house.
>> >> They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you
>> >> tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with
>> >> them." Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind
>> >> him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
>> >> (Genesis 19:4-7)
>>
>> >Yeah...and? �If you think Genesis 10:4-7 is talking about
>> >homosexuality and not the rape of angels and inhospitality to
>> >visitors, you've never done a study of these verses based on the
>> >original Hebrew it was written in.
>>
>> Lot did not know they were going to try and force the men to
>> have sex with them when he said it was "wicked". �All he knew
>> at that time, is that they were asking for it. �If your lies
>> were true, Lot should have gone back into the house, told them
>> about the proposal, and asked them if they were willing. �
>
>Oh...so now you know exactly what was going through Lot's mind and why
>he did what he did and the logistics of it? Give me a break.
That isn't what I thought was going through Lot's mind, that's
what the chapter says. Read it. They came, they asked, and
Lot said they were wicked at that time, before they made any
threats or use of force.
If your view were correct, there should have been no reason
why Lot wouldn't have just relayed their proposal to the men
inside. Your denial that is a rebuke against homosexuality is
a glaring lie.
>> You
>> have just exposed yourself, again, as a conscience seared
>> liar, deliberately ignoring the plainest of Bible teachings.
>
>Whatever you say, Randy. I know I've touched a nerve with you - and
>when that happens you go a nuts with your accusations and your temper
>flares and you get out of control. This post is the perfect example
>of your temper out of control.
Changing the subject with a distracting lie won't change the
fact that you are deliberately misrepresenting what the Bible
says to try and justify homosexuality.
>> >> "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
>> >> detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)
>>
>> >> If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
>> >> of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be
>> >> put to death; their blood shall be upon them. �
>> >> (Leviticus 20:13)
>>
>> >Levitical Holiness Code specifically for the Levitical Priesthood.
>
>> That was not the code just for Levitical priests. �It was for
>> all of God's people, whether alien, or native born. �
>
>Really? Prove it. What's more, is it the holiness code for those who
>are no longer under the Law?
It's right there in Leviticus. Read it for yourself. When
it's talking about codes that only apply for the priests, it
specifies the priests.
As for not applying today, the same code states such
principles as that you don't lay with your aunt, sister,
mother, etc. Those weren't temporary codes for just the OT,
but apply continually, just as we're still not supposed to
kill.
Once again you show that no matter how plainly the Bible
rebukes homosexuality, you try to justify it and work your way
around the direct statements of Scripture.
>> The
>> Levitical priests had more strict requirements, including such
>> things as that the high priest could only marry a virgin, not
>> a widow.
>
>Wow - you know a smattering of something about the Levitical Holiness
>Code...
>
>I'm not impressed.
Then you're not disputing the fact the instruction clearly
rebukes homosexuality.
>> >> While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of
>> >> the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they
>> >> shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man
>> >> who came to your house so we can have sex with him." The owner
>> >> of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends,
>> >> don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this
>> >> disgraceful thing. �(Judges 19:22-23)
>>
>> >Ibid (re: Genesis).
>>
>> ibid. (Re: re: Genesis)
>
>Still clueless, I see.
It would be impossible for you to accidentally contradict
every Bible rebuke against homosexuality, just by coincidence.
You would have to understand what the Bible says and what you
are doing to contradict it so perfectly at every point.
>> >> They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped
>> >> and served created things rather than the Creator�who is
>> >> forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to
>> >> shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual
>> >> relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also
>> >> abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with
>> >> lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other
>> >> men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their
>> >> error. �(Romans 1:25-27)
>>
>> >We've already been through this. �I see you still think Romans 1 is
>> >speaking of homosexuality and not temple prostitution and idolatry.
>>
>> It says women exchanging natural sexual relations for
>> unnatural ones, and in "the same way" men were "inflamed with
>> lust for one another". �That says nothing about temple
>> prostitution. �It is plainly talking about both the burning
>> for and engaging in sex with someone of the same gender. �
>
>Temple prostitution and idolatry is exactly what is being addressed in
>Romans 1.
It neither says or mentions temple prostitution in that
passage. And you have to completely ignore what it says to
come to that conclusion, as you have here. It directly states
it's talking about men and women burning for and having sexual
relations with the same sex.
>Don't believe me - look into some scholarly commentary on
>Romans
As if you consulted some commentaries and that's what they
said. I Did. Not one source even suggested it was talking
about temple prostitution instead of homosexuality.
>1. Surely, you're not going to argue with reputable Biblical
>scholars, are you? (yeah...I think you probably will)
I can't believe you were dumb enough to float a lie like that:
1:26 For this same reason God gave people up to erotic
activity with members of their own sex. Women became lesbians,
practicing unnatural sex and knowing no shame.
1:27 Men became sodomites, in total perversion of their
natural functions. Turning away from the marriage relationship
ordained by God, they burned with lust for other men and
practiced homosexuality. But their sin took its toll in their
bodies and souls. Disease, guilt, and personality deformities
struck at them like the sting of a scorpion. This disproves
the notion that anyone can commit this sin and get away with
it.
Homosexuality is being passed off today by some as a sickness
and by others as a legitimate alternative lifestyle.
Christians must be careful not to accept the world's moral
judgments but to be guided by God's word. In the OT, this sin
was punishable by death (Lev_18:29; Lev_20:13), and here in
the NT those who practice it are said to be worthy of death
(Rom_1:32). The Bible speaks of homosexuality as a very
serious sin, as evidenced by God's obliteration of Sodom and
Gomorrah, where militant �gays� ran riot (Gen_19:4-25).
The gospel offers pardon and forgiveness to homosexuals, as it
does to all sinners who repent and believe in the Lord Jesus
Christ. Christians who have fallen into this heinous sin can
find forgiveness and restoration through confessing and
forsaking the sin. There is complete deliverance from
homosexuality to all who are willing to obey God's word.
Ongoing counseling assistance is very important in most cases.
It is true that some people seem to have a natural tendency
toward homosexuality. This should not be surprising, since
fallen human nature is capable of just about any form of
iniquity and perversion. The gross sin does not consist in the
inclination toward it but in yielding to and practicing it.
The Holy Spirit gives the power to resist the temptation and
to have lasting victory (1Co_10:13). Some of the Christians in
Corinth were living proofs that homosexuals need not be
irrevocably bound to that lifestyle (1Co_6:9-11).
(Believer's Bible Commentary)
Rom 1:26-27
b. Abandoned to sexual perversion (Rom_1:26-27)
Also God gave them over to shameful lusts (lit., �passions of
disgrace�). This involved, as the text states, both sexes
engaging in homosexual instead of heterosexual relationships.
Women deliberately exchanged natural relations (with men in
marriage) for unnatural ones (with other women). This is the
second �exchange� the unregenerate made (cf. Rom_1:25). Men�
were inflamed with lust (orexei, �sexual lust,� used only here
in the NT and differing from the more common word for lust in
Rom_1:26).
The words translated women and men in these verses are the
sexual words �females� and �males.� Contemporary homosexuals
insist that these verses mean that it is perverse for a
heterosexual male or female to engage in homosexual relations
but it is not perverse for a homosexual male or female to do
so since homosexuality is such a person�s natural preference.
This is strained exegesis unsupported by the Bible. The only
natural sexual relationship the Bible recognizes is a
heterosexual one (Gen_2:21-24; Mat_19:4-6) within marriage.
All homosexual relations constitute sexual perversion and are
subject to God�s judgment. Such lustful and indecent acts have
within them the seeds of punishment (due penalty).
(Bible Knowledge Commentary)
Homosexuality (to turn against or abandon natural relations of
sex) was as widespread in Paul's day as it is in ours. God is
willing to receive anyone who comes to him in faith, and
Christians should love and accept others no matter what their
background. Yet, homosexuality is strictly forbidden in
Scripture (Lev_18:22). Homosexuality is considered an
acceptable practice by many in our world today�even by some
churches. But society does not set the standard for God's law.
Homosexuals believe that their desires are normal and that
they have a right to express them. But God does not encourage
us to fulfill all our desires (even normal ones). Those
desires that violate his laws must be controlled.
If you have these desires, you can and must resist acting upon
them. Consciously avoid places or activities you know will
kindle temptations. Don't underestimate the power of Satan to
tempt you, or the potential for serious harm if you continue
to yield to these temptations. Remember, God can and will
forgive sexual sins just as he forgives other sins. Surrender
yourself to God, asking him to show you the way out of sin and
into the light of his freedom and his love. Prayer, Bible
study, and loving support of Christians in a Bible-believing
church can help you to gain strength to resist these powerful
temptations. If you are already deeply involved in homosexual
behavior, seek help from a trustworthy, professional,
Christian counselor.
(Life Application Study Bible)
>> That you look right at that and try to contend it means
>> something it doesn't even say, only shows what a deliberate,
>> conscience seared liar you are, who deliberately misrepresents
>> both what the Bible and others say.
>
>Yeah, yeah, yeah...blah, blah, blah. Nothing new here from you - just
>more of the same self-aggrandizing and gratification.
You do not dispute that is the case. You simply try to malign
someone who notices.
>> >> (1 Corinthians 6:9) �Do you not know that the wicked will not
>> >> inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the
>> >> sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male
>> >> prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
>>
>> >"homosexual offenders"? �That was added in English waaay after Paul
>> >died and is not a term from the original Greek.
>>
>> The context is the "sexually immoral", and the word means:
>>
>> G733
>> arsenoko�tes;
>> �gen. arsenoko�tou, masc. noun, from �rsen (G730), a male, and
>> ko�te (G2845), a bed. A man who lies in bed with another male,
>> a homosexual (1Co_6:9; 1Ti_1:10 [cf. Lev_18:22; Rom_1:27]).
>> (WordStudy)
>>
>> G733
>> ??????????????
>> arsenokoite?s
>> ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
>> From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile)
>> self with mankind.
>> (Strongs)
>>
>> G733
>> arsenokoite?s
>> Thayer Definition:
>> 1) one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite,
>> homosexual
>> (Thayer)
>>
>> I could not find one language source that didn't agree the
>> original Greek was talking about homosexuality, just as it is
>> translated in the NIV, and other versions.
>
>That's because you only cherry-picked
No I didn't. Every source I have agreed on the same thing. If
you found something that doesn't agree, it's probably because
_you_ cherry picked something you found that contradicts the
truth.
>the stuff that agrees with you.
>There is a plethora of material, commentary and lexiconical aid that
>doesn't say that at all. Of course, since none of it agrees with your
>biases, you aren't going to acknolwedge it even exists.
ibid.
>Well...maybe you can understand this: there was no word during Paul's
>time that meant specifically "male homosexual". The Greek word used
>here means much more than what you are dishonestly providing above -
>and you know it.
You are a liar. I quoted, in full, every source I have
available, and they all agree, and you could not dispute it.
Yet you floated the idea that if one were to consult the
language sources, they would readily find it means "temple
prostitution", instead of homosexuality. Well, I checked
every source, and couldn't find anyone who didn't agree it
means homosexuality.
You're the one who has to go cherry picking, to find someone
who doesn't agree the word means homosexuals.
>> >> We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but
>> >> for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy
>> >> and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers,
>> >> for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing
>> >> homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers. And
>> >> it is for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that
>> >> conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed
>> >> God, which he entrusted to me. �(1 Timothy 1:9-11)
>>
>> >Nuh-uh. �The Greek "arsenokoites" refers to shrine prostitution, not
>> >natural homosexuality. �
>>
>> That is not what the word means. �Not one time is arsenokoites
>> used to refer to shrine prostitution. �In fact, it is listed
>> separately from "whoremongers", which means prostitutes. �It
>> comes from the roots "male", and "bed", and means to lie with
>> a man. �If it were simply talking about a woman lying with a
>> male prostitute, or just prostitutes in general, that would
>> already have been covered by "whoremongers".
>
>Wrong again. Look deeper (this time beyond your current
>understanding).
I'm not the one who needs to look deeper. You keep
challenging me, as if you've consulted deep language sources,
commentaries, etc. Yet when I simply consult every language
source and commentary I have available, they all agree it
means homosexuality. Not that it wasn't readily evident from
the English translation of the text itself, but you shouldn't
float lies that you know will not back you up.
Did you think that if you just bluffed, I wouldn't bother
consulting the sources?
Once again, you are simply trying to dodge and work your way
around the clear fact that homosexuality is an abomination,
and the Bible makes that clear in no uncertain terms.
>> >Do the translators
>>
>> Thanks for admitting that that is how virtually everyone
>> understands and translates the meaning of the word.
Which you don't even attempt to dispute.
>> >here think that Paul didn't
>> >know what he was talking about? �Do you?
>>
>> You're the one who should answer that question, because you're
>> the one hoping people will be too stupid to notice what Paul
>> was talking about. �In fact, that's the only hope you have,
>> since it's obvious you're promoting a glaring, false
>> interpretation to the most obvious of Bible statements.
>
>Yeah, yeah, yeah...blah, blah, blah. More of the same from Randy-one-
>note.
Which you cannot dispute or refute. All you try to do is
label me with a derogatory term for noticing.
>> >> In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns
>> >> gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They
>> >> serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of
>> >> eternal fire. �(Jude 1:7)
>>
>> >Still nothing about homosexuality. �<yawn>
>>
>> Liar. �See Re: re: Genesis above. �What they did in seeking to
>> lie with people of the same sex, is called "sexual immorality
>> and perversion". �
>
>"Sexual immorality and perversion" is a very broad spectrum. The
>writer here is not implying homosexuality - the writer here is talking
>about *all* sexual immorality and perversion
We already know from the text of Genesis that they sought to
lie with the men in the house, and that Lot called it wicked
before they even tried to use threats or force. If the Bible
meant what you
>(including those who
>force their wives to have sex when they don't want to and when they
>shouldn't be put at risk of pregnancy, Randy).
Do you think lying about someone else somehow justifies your
homosexuality?
>> >More same-ol-same-ol from Randy - this time without cursing, though...
>>
>> You have just proved you are a liar, right in the face of the
>> evidence.
>
>Not. Wanna start cursing again...? *That's* a *very* effective
>witness for Jesus Christ, dontcha think?
Again, you do not dispute it, or refute the evidence. All you
do is try to change the subject to distract from the fact
you're a glaring liar whose attempts to justify homosexuality
from the Bible, prove you are a lair who looks right at
Scripture, then deliberately misrepresents and contradicts
what it plainly states.
Sensi
> On Jul 1, 8:12 pm, Sensi <sensi4si...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Sensi:
>>>> So you don't think the Holy spirit dwells in everyone?
>
>>> No. That's impossible because of mankind's innate sinfulness. We're
>>> all born with it and without being born of water and of the Spirit,
>>> the Holy Spirit cannot reside within.
>
Sensi:
So when a baby arrives on the planet it's without God until
it grows into an adult and then ask God to come into its
heart?
What if you had two hearts? A good heart and a miserable
heart would God resides in one and not the other?
Maybe you switch back and forth..
>> Sensi:
>> God is always with you? No?
>
> God is always with me. I am one of His own since I asked Him into my
> heart and my life more than 34 years ago.
>
Sensi:
SO if he's constantly living in your heart that would be the
good heart are you always goodhearted, kind and
compassionate? Do you switch over sometimes and become
angry, resentful or ever get out of line with your purpose
whatever that may be?
>> With others? Yes?
>
> Of course with others.
Sensi:
Good
>
>> Being born of water and spirit means what to you?
>> Water from a basin, a river, a sprinkling from a priest, a
>> a preacher baptizing you in the name of Jesus?
>
> What Jesus was referring to (when He was explaining what he meant by
> "born again" to Nicodemus) was physical birth (born of water) and
> spiritual rebirth (born of the Spirit).
>
Sensi:
ok, so if you're born again then somehow a seed was planted
that you become a child of God? If this seed is Christ seed
(Son of God) then do you consider yourself a Son of God as
Jesus did?
>> Does that make you born again?
>
> Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and His atonement are what makes
> one born again.
Sensi:
Do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ encourages us to be
born again in the same spirit he was born in?
>
>> This Holy Spirit is contained only in people who are not
>> sinful? Are you sinful?
>
> I didn't say that. But, in answer to your (snarky-sounding)
> question...
>
Sensi:
No, it wasn't snarky. You're implying that although you sin
you're not responsible for your sins any longer. You're
pretending that it''s about God and not about you but when
someone says it's about you then you switch to it's about
God not me... Vera does that constantly too.
> The Holy Spirit is within everyone who has been born-again. People
> who have been born-again are still human, therefore, they still sin.
> The consequences of the sin, however, is different than before being
> born-again.
Sensi:
Yep, refer to above post. How different is it?
Do you still pay for what you do or are you no longer
accountable for your actions?
>
>>>> Nor does Salvation by grace come about if you practice being
>>>> Christ-like?
>
>>> No. Salvation is a gift from God and cannot be worked for.
>
>> Sensi:
>> Salvation is a gift that requires that you become
>> responsible for how you handle this gift.
>
> And you know this how...?
Sensi:
This gift (to me) is knowledge but within this knowledge is
a responsibility of sharing. The knowledge is there about
forgiveness.. Have you learned about the gift of forgiveness
within the gift of knowledge? What do you do with this
knowledge of forgiveness? Do you practice it by sharing it?
As Jesus did. Do you honor it? (as Jesus did) Also the
knowledge of the gift of peace. Do you share this peace with
others ( s Jesus did) etc.............
>
>> When you ask for the gift what do you do with it?
>
> You don't ask for it, it is just given. Here's how it works - Jesus
> stands at the door and knocks, but you didn't necessarily ask Him to
> come to the door. If you open the door and allow Him entrance, then
> He's there and He's never leaving. You don't do anything with Him,
> it's what *He* does with you. He's inside and wants to clean house -
> you don't help Him, you just let Him.
>
Sensi:
You had to have switched from one type of heart to another.
Which doesn't mean it wasn't always there, maybe you started
to recognize it but being human we tend to switch back and
forth from good heartedness to ugliness and then back & forth.
This cleaning house... So are you saying the mind and heart
is your house? So if Jesus comes in and cleans your house
wouldn't he take away the sorrow, misery, resentments,
arrogance and perhaps burn it in a trash pile so you can
have a new life again?
I would think that if Jesus came to clean my house I'd want
to keep it clean to show my appreciation. I know he's
considered a carpenter so perhaps he helps build this kind
of house with you telling him what you want your house to
look like. They always say, "Home is where the heart is."
> It's not about *you* - it's about *Him*. Get it?
Sensi:
Ohhhhhhhh... well....now you're copping out but awhile ago
you were saying it was about you and your sins, other people
and their sins, but now it's not about you but about HIM.
Since he's building you this house perhaps even a mansion
I would think you'd at least learn about what he wants from
you instead of what you want from him?
>
>>>>> A "spiritual journey" isn't necessarily a Christ-led journey.
>
>> Sensi:
>> Why not? Christ is a way of life and all can enter in.
>
> No. Judas "entered in", but he didn't get it, either.
Sensi:
Judas didn't carry though with the plan... He chickened out.
The other disciples were at least trying to follow Christ
even though they had little faith in themselves Jesus always
encouraged to walk in the light.
>
>>>> Sensi:
>>>> Christ is a way of life.
>
>>> No, Jesus Christ is *the* Way and *the* Truth, and *the* Life, and no
>>> one comes to the Father (God) but through Him (see John 14:6).
>
>> Sensi:
>> Through him.......Through means going through a process.
>
> No, it doesn't mean "through a process". It means that Jesus Christ
> is an advocate for you with the Father. Without Him as your advocate,
> you're lost. You can't approach God on your own without Jesus going
> first for you - that's why Christians, when they pray, say, "In Jesus'
> Name".
>
Sensi:
So when you enter into this closet inside your house that
Jesus cleaned *for you* what do you pray for? Peace of mind,
instruction to keep building your new clean house or do you
just shrug your shoulders and say In Jesus name I pray for
something.
What do you pray for?
>> You don't become an overnight success and your through.. Do you
>> see yourself as
>> through.. Through with learning, growing, gathering
>> understandings, through practicing, or are you through with
>> having to do those things? When you're through you're done.
>> Are you through?
>
> Nope. And I never said, nor implied, I thought I was. As I stated
> earlier, we start learning when we're born and if we're wise don't
> stop learning until we physically die.
>
Sensi:
Learning is very valuable and perhaps golden.
>>>> Living out Christ is far better
>>>> than preaching that the way of Christ was only in Jesus.
>
>>> Is that found in the Bible?
>
>> Christ be with you, Christ in us... You can check for yourself.
>
> But that isn't what you said above. You said, "Living out Christ is
> far better
> than preaching that the way of Christ was only in Jesus." - that's not
> even close to what you tried to turn it into with, "Christ be with
> you, Christ in us". And, BTW...it's customary for the one making the
> claim to take on the onus of providing proof for what they have
> claimed (saying, "you can check for yourself" doesn't cut it)
Sensi:
I'm still saying Living out Christ is far better than
preaching about Christ.
Perhaps I should clear it up with this.
In this new clean house of yours that Jesus cleaned and give
you a fresh new start. Where do you start? What do you do
with this fresh new start?
>
> So...I'm asking you again - is your claim of "Living out Christ is far
> better
> than preaching that the way of Christ was only in Jesus", as far as
> you know, found in the Bible?
>
>>>> Aye on the plural. I was thinking of Gal 5:22 where the
>>>> fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
>>>> gentleness, goodness, faith.
>
>>> Same here - and Galatians 5:22 says "fruit of the Spirit", not
>>> "fruits" of the spirit.
>
>> Sensi:
>> Ok, not a problem if you don't like plural I'll keep it
>> singular for you.
>
> It's not a matter of what I "like", it's a matter of that's not what
> the Bible says.
Sensi:
Not a problem.
>
>>>>>> Those things don't happen over night, it takes time and
>>>>>> practice...
>
>>>>> No, it doesn't. The Fruit of the Spirit isn't obtained through works
>>>>> *lest any man should boast).
>
>>>> It takes practice and work to get there.
>
>>> No, it doesn't
>
>> Sensi:
>> Ok... be that way...But I would like to ask you this.
>>
>> If you don't have to practice such things why are you always
>> on Vera's case for practicing what she does?
>
> That question doesn't even come close to resembling what you said
> earlier. You said, "It takes practice and work to get there."
>
> Practicing what one does (whether good or bad) is human endeavor and
> has absolutely nothing to do with that which comes from the Spirit of
> God.
Sensi:
Why wouldn't it? If God created all things under the sun
and gave you everything of your choice...
For instance....
Lets say peace is in the air, but so is resentment,
forgiveness flows like a river and then over there you can
find a grudge to pick up ... anger comes along and you strap
it on like there's no tomorrow... So you take up with anger
and resentment and drag these back into your house and you
move them in like they came in Jesus name would you call
that human to want to live with these in your fresh clean
house?
Otoh,,,suppose you chose to be a peaceful person and your
greatest desire was to practice being peaceful wouldn't you
then have to clean out resentment and anger for that to take
place in your home? (Home is where the heart is) Would that
be godly of you?
>
>> She says she's saved so that gives her the authority to
>> "work" her whip and sword as if she can do no wrong works.
>> Randy doesn't honor your salvation, he sees you as an
>> unrepentant sinner who does wrong works with your body.
>
> Yeah...and?
>
>> You don't honor his salvation,
>
> Wrong. I have never, *ever* said that Randy isn't a born-again
> believer in Jesus Christ.
>
>> Vera shoots Diana with some horrible accusations and she's
>> saved too... So there are no works, no practice? no going
>> through Christ to do good works?
>
> One does good works *because* of being prompted by the Spirit to do
> them - not because you want to make God happy. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
> says, "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is
> laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation
> with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work
> will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be
> revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each
> man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he
> will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer
> loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
Sensi:
Now you're saying it's not about making God happy... All God
wants is for YOU to be happy? I think this would be true.
A happy heart makes for a happy house. You do have to work
at it though. Choices are always there. Golden
opportunities are always available.
>
> Our righteousness compared to the righteousness of the Lord is as
> nothing. The Apostle Paul said, "As it is written, there is none
> righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10) and he said that "All have
> sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). We become
> truly righteous not through our own righteousness or works, but
> through the power of Christ's righteousness. Therefore, to become more
> like Christ we must partake of the divine nature of Christ (2 Peter
> 1:4) and His righteousness. There is a righteousness of men and a
> righteousness of God. In Isaiah 64:6, Isaiah was referring to the
> righteousness of men when he wrote, "We are all as an unclean thing,
> and all our righteousness are as filthy rags."
Sensi:
In this clean house of yours have you looked in the closet
to see what you're wearing for the day?
That divine nature of Christ is what I've been talking
about all along... Can you become Christ-like through Jesus
telling you to wear this or that as your garment and give
up the filthy rags? Do you go out in that trash pile and
bring those rags back into your new clean house? Doesn't he
clothe you in better garments now?
>
>> Everybody behave like a heathen cause after all they're all
>> born of the Holy Spirit and can only do Holy Works just like
>> Jesus did.. ??????/
>
> Your sarcasm is noted and not welcome. If you're seriously looking
> for answers to your questions, let me know. Otherwise, I feel like
> I've just wasted a whole bunch of time.
>
Sensi:
It was a bit sarcastic... I have to agree.
>> Salvation has become a poison and it was never intended to
>> be used as a weapon but as a way of living that ones soul
>> would find comfort and peace.
>
> That's not God's fault. His Word still remains and remains true.
> What you are assigning to salvation through Christ is neither Biblical
> nor true.
Sensi:
I'm just saying every word that comes out of our mouth is
not always for the good of salvation. Salvation has been
tampered with in the religious circle that it's lost some of
it's glory.When it's discussed people tend to become very
defensive and fearful that someone won't accept their
salvation as real and they're always backbiting each other
to prove it isn't true... It gets rather crazy...
========================================================
Ending here...
>
>>>> Perhaps discipline sounds better to you than works
>
>>> "Discipline" has nothing to do with "works".
>
>> Sensi:
>> Whatever.... I'm not going to argue with your works or
>> your discipline factor. You can work that out yourself.
>
> Gee...thanks (???) As if you ever had a right to argue with anything
> in my life that is mine...
>
>>>> if you
>>>> only think works is associated with working for something.
>
>>> That's exactly what "works" means in the Biblical sense. The grace we
>>> receive from God as a result of our acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice and
>>> atonement for our sin through faith is a gift and cannot be obtained
>>> through works (see Ephesians 2:8-9).
>
>> Sensi:
>> That doesn't mean you don't have to do good works but since
>> you're saved just behave anyway you desire cause afterall
>> you'll be rewarded for bad behavior.
>
> I never said that.
>
>>>>> No - it's 70x7 and that is a model for mankind, not an example of
>>>>> God's forgiveness.
>
>>>> God's forgiveness is far greater. The point of Jesus
>>>> teaching us to forgive 70X7 is a form of salvation.
>
>>> No it's not.
>
>> Sensi:
>> Don't practice forgiveness then. if it's too much work then
>> don't do it.
>
> You like strawmen, dontcha?
>
>>>> You *save* yourself a lot of misery.
>
>>> If you're trying for a play on words to get a point across...the point
>>> was lost.
>
>> Sensi:
>> Many things get lost in the shuffle so I'm not surprised.
>
> I'm happy for ya.
<<kêllÿ>>
> >> You don't honor his salvation,
> > Wrong. I have never, *ever* said that Randy isn't a born-again
> > believer in Jesus Christ.
It's revealing that you passed this on by without comment and/or
apology.
> > Your sarcasm is noted and not welcome. If you're seriously looking
> > for answers to your questions, let me know. Otherwise, I feel like
> > I've just wasted a whole bunch of time.
> Sensi:
> It was a bit sarcastic... I have to agree.
If any of these questions are serious, let me know. When you can stop
being a sarcastic jerk, let me know. Until then, your post will
remain unanswered by me. I have better things to do than waste my
time on someone who asks questions dripping with disingenuousness and
sarcasm and only uses the answers I gave in good faith as more talking
points for more sarcasm.
Sensi
Sensi:
That's fine I didn't have time at the time. I have 2 boys 10
yrs old here who decided to build a fire out of cedar scraps
with two rocks...and they actually did it. So..I had to take
care of that. I didn't think they could but they did...
I don't need an answer so that's ok but if you need an
apology the offer is here.
I apologize to you for saying that you did not honor Randy's
salvation..
Thanks,
Sensi
dolf
Rod
> posted with permission
>
>
>
> http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
>
>
> Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
>
> Answer: Before this question is answered, the term �Christian� must be
> defined. A �Christian� is not a person who has said a prayer, or
> walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each
> of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are
> not what �makes� a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by
> faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior
> (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
>
> So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation?
> Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to
> examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what
> losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:
>
> A Christian is a new creation. �Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he
> is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!� (2 Corinthians
> 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature
> as a result of being �in Christ.� For a Christian to lose salvation,
> the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.
>
> A Christian is redeemed. �For you know that it was not with perishable
> things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty
> way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
> precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect� (1 Peter
> 1:18-19). The word �redeemed� refers to a purchase being made, a price
> being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have
> to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of
> Christ.
>
> A Christian is justified. Therefore, since we have been justified
> through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ�
> (Romans 5:1). To �justify� means to declare righteous. All those who
> receive Jesus as Savior are declared righteous� by God. For a
> Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and
> �un-declare� what He had previously declared.
>
> A Christian is promised eternal life. For God so loved the world that
> he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall
> not perish but have eternal life� (John 3:16). Eternal life is a
> promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises,
> �Believe and you will have eternal life. For a Christian to lose
> salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is
> promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by
> taking away eternal life?
>
> A Christian is guaranteed glorification. And those he predestined, he
> also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
> he also glorified (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1,
> justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans
> 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies.
> Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection
> body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is
> in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those
> whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
>
> Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared.
> Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose
> salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when
> we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation
> could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be
> un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be
> lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose
> salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His
> mind�two things that Scripture tells us God never does.
>
> The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot
> lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and
> continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are
> Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem
> with these two objections is the phrase �who are Christians. The Bible
> declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral
> lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the
> faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John
> 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not
> continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and
> deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.
>
> No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a
> Christian from God�s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a
> Christian from God�s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and
> able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude
> 24-25, To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you
> before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the
> only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
> Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
I'd say that Christs words trump everyone else, wouldn't you ?
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who
is in heaven.
>
>
> While looking for answers on another question found this article.
>
> God Bless
>
> Matt
--
Sensi
> Matt wrote:
>
>> posted with permission
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
>>
>>
>> Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
>>
>> defined. A �Christian� is not a person who has said a prayer, or
>> walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each
>> of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are
>> faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior
>> (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
>>
>> So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation?
>> Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to
>> examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what
>> losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:
>>
>> is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!� (2 Corinthians
>> 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature
>> the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.
>>
>> things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty
>> way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
>> 1:18-19). The word �redeemed� refers to a purchase being made, a price
>> being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have
>> to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of
>> Christ.
>>
>> A Christian is justified. Therefore, since we have been justified
>> (Romans 5:1). To �justify� means to declare righteous. All those who
>> receive Jesus as Savior are declared righteous� by God. For a
>> Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and
>>
>> A Christian is promised eternal life. For God so loved the world that
>> he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall
>> promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises,
>> salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is
>> promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by
>> taking away eternal life?
>>
>> A Christian is guaranteed glorification. And those he predestined, he
>> also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
>> he also glorified (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1,
>> justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans
>> 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies.
>> Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection
>> body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is
>> in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those
>> whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
>>
>> Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared.
>> Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose
>> salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when
>> we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation
>> could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be
>> un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be
>> lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose
>> salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His
>>
>> The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot
>> lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and
>> continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are
>> Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem
>> declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral
>> lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the
>> faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John
>> 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not
>> continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and
>> deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.
>>
>> No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a
>> Christian from God�s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and
>> able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude
>> 24-25, To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you
>> before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the
>> only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
>> Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
>
>
>
> I'd say that Christs words trump everyone else, wouldn't you ?
>
>
>
> Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
> into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who
> is in heaven.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Sensi:
That's an interesting scripture.. I've been told on numerous
occasions that good works won't get you anywhere.
This verse looks like it says... DO.
Matt
Sensi
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>
>
>
> "Sensi" <sensi...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:4IidnV4s1YP-u9DX...@accessus.net...
>
> James 2:14-26
>
>
Sensi:
WOW! Proof positive...
Thanks, I'll carry on with that in mind.
Interesting that some Christians have said works don't get
you anywhere nor is it possible to work out your salvation.
*Addition*
Jesus gave instructions, offered guidance, spoke about do as
I have done...
And yet his teachings go by the wayside in favor of just
give me my salvation so I don't have to anything for myself.
Interesting that there are 2 completely different sets of
rules to follow.
Thanks!
practice.
<<kêllÿ>>
> Rod wrote:
> > Matt wrote:
>
> >> posted with permission
>
> >>http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
>
> >> Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
>
> >> defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or
> >> walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each
> >> of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are
> >> faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior
> >> (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
>
> >> So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation?
> >> Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to
> >> examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what
> >> losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:
>
> >> is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians
> >> 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature
> >> the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.
>
> >> things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty
> >> way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
> >> 1:18-19). The word “redeemed” refers to a purchase being made, a price
> >> being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have
> >> to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of
> >> Christ.
>
> >> A Christian is justified. Therefore, since we have been justified
> >> receive Jesus as Savior are declared righteous” by God. For a
> >> Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and
>
> >> A Christian is promised eternal life. For God so loved the world that
> >> he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall
> >> promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises,
> >> salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is
> >> promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by
> >> taking away eternal life?
>
> >> A Christian is guaranteed glorification. And those he predestined, he
> >> also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
> >> he also glorified (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1,
> >> justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans
> >> 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies.
> >> Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection
> >> body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is
> >> in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those
> >> whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
>
> >> Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared.
> >> Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose
> >> salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when
> >> we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation
> >> could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be
> >> un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be
> >> lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose
> >> salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His
>
> >> The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot
> >> lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and
> >> continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are
> >> Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem
> >> declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral
> >> lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the
> >> faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John
> >> 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not
> >> continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and
> >> deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.
>
> >> No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a
> >> Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and
> >> able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude
> >> 24-25, To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you
> >> before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the
> >> only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
> >> Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
>
> > I'd say that Christs words trump everyone else, wouldn't you ?
>
> > Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
> > into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who
> > is in heaven.
> Sensi:
> That's an interesting scripture.. I've been told on numerous
> occasions that good works won't get you anywhere.
> This verse looks like it says... DO.
<sigh> Who was Jesus speaking to? He was speaking largely to the
Jewish people of Israel. The "will of [His] Father" Jesus is
referring to is accepting that He was the long-awaited Messiah and
accepting His impending sacrifical atonement. Jesus is not speaking
of works equating salvation. If He was, He wouldn't have said in
verse 22, "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not
prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your
name perform many miracles?"
That's part of the trouble with cherry-picking Scripture (especially
if it's been picked by someone who hasn't a clue to begin with).
<<kêllÿ>>
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> "Sensi" <sensi4si...@home.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4IidnV4s1YP-u9DX...@accessus.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Rod wrote:
> >> Matt wrote:
>
> >>> posted with permission
>
> >>>http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
>
> >>> Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
>
> >>> defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or
> >>> walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each
> >>> of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are
> >>> faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior
> >>> (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
>
> >>> So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation?
> >>> Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to
> >>> examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what
> >>> losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:
>
> >>> is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians
> >>> 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature
> >>> the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.
>
> >>> things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty
> >>> way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
> >>> 1:18-19). The word “redeemed” refers to a purchase being made, a price
> >>> being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have
> >>> to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of
> >>> Christ.
>
> >>> A Christian is justified. Therefore, since we have been justified
> >>> receive Jesus as Savior are declared righteous” by God. For a
> >>> Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and
>
> >>> A Christian is promised eternal life. For God so loved the world that
> >>> he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall
> >>> promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises,
> >>> salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is
> >>> promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by
> >>> taking away eternal life?
>
> >>> A Christian is guaranteed glorification. And those he predestined, he
> >>> also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
> >>> he also glorified (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1,
> >>> justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans
> >>> 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies.
> >>> Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection
> >>> body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is
> >>> in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those
> >>> whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
>
> >>> Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared.
> >>> Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose
> >>> salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when
> >>> we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation
> >>> could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be
> >>> un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be
> >>> lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose
> >>> salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His
>
> >>> The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot
> >>> lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and
> >>> continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are
> >>> Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem
> >>> declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral
> >>> lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the
> >>> faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John
> >>> 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not
> >>> continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and
> >>> deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.
>
> >>> No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a
> >>> Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and
> >>> able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude
> >>> 24-25, To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you
> >>> before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the
> >>> only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
> >>> Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
>
> >> I'd say that Christs words trump everyone else, wouldn't you ?
>
> >> Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
> >> into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who
> >> is in heaven.
>
> > Sensi:
> > That's an interesting scripture.. I've been told on numerous occasions
> > that good works won't get you anywhere.
> > This verse looks like it says... DO.
>
>
> James 2:14-26
That person's faith can be dead through the lack of works that glorify
God, but that doesn't mean they are no longer a Child of God and cast
into hell because of it.
How many ways can it be said? You don't lose your salvation if you
don't do stuff - salvation isn't bought, it's a free gift from God.
And Scripture clearly backs this up (if you look for it correctly).
Sensi
> On Jul 2, 2:28 pm, Sensi <sensi4si...@home.com> wrote:
>> Rod wrote:
>>> Matt wrote:
>>>> posted with permission
>>>> http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
>>>> Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
>>>> walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each
>>>> of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are
>>>> faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior
>>>> (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
>>>> So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation?
>>>> Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to
>>>> examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what
>>>> losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:
>>>> is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!� (2 Corinthians
>>>> 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature
>>>> the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.
>>>> things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty
>>>> way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
>>>> 1:18-19). The word �redeemed� refers to a purchase being made, a price
>>>> being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have
>>>> to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of
>>>> Christ.
>>>> A Christian is justified. Therefore, since we have been justified
>>>> receive Jesus as Savior are declared righteous� by God. For a
>>>> Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and
>>>> A Christian is promised eternal life. For God so loved the world that
>>>> he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall
>>>> promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises,
>>>> salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is
>>>> promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by
>>>> taking away eternal life?
>>>> A Christian is guaranteed glorification. And those he predestined, he
>>>> also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
>>>> he also glorified (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1,
>>>> justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans
>>>> 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies.
>>>> Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection
>>>> body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is
>>>> in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those
>>>> whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
>>>> Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared.
>>>> Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose
>>>> salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when
>>>> we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation
>>>> could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be
>>>> un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be
>>>> lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose
>>>> salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His
>>>> The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot
>>>> lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and
>>>> continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are
>>>> Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem
>>>> declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral
>>>> lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the
>>>> faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John
>>>> 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not
>>>> continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and
>>>> deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.
>>>> No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a
>>>> Christian from God�s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and
>>>> able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude
>>>> 24-25, To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you
>>>> before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the
>>>> only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
>>>> Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
>>> I'd say that Christs words trump everyone else, wouldn't you ?
>>> Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
>>> into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who
>>> is in heaven.
>
>> Sensi:
>> That's an interesting scripture.. I've been told on numerous
>> occasions that good works won't get you anywhere.
>> This verse looks like it says... DO.
>
> <sigh> Who was Jesus speaking to? He was speaking largely to the
> Jewish people of Israel. The "will of [His] Father" Jesus is
> referring to is accepting that He was the long-awaited Messiah and
> accepting His impending sacrifical atonement.
Sensi:
The Will of Jesus's Father calls for *all* of us to be
sacrificial. All of us could be Messiahs (saviors) and help
heal the sick, but we'd rather play sick and whine.. We
could all be
Saviors by telling people they're forgiven but we always
have to find something they can't be forgiven for or a
reason they're not.. We can all pick up our cross and follow
but who has that kind of courage?
Very few!
Jesus is not speaking
> of works equating salvation. If He was, He wouldn't have said in
> verse 22, "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not
> prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your
> name perform many miracles?"
Sensi:
There is a foundation it's called forgiveness and it's so
concrete that you cannot change it...It's not just for you
or for those of a certain religion. It's for all!
This is where you begin to build your works from,
(you know that house) your works must all be centered on the
foundation of forgiveness..
Forgive those who trespass against you... *that's a work*
Do unto others as you would have do unto you... *that's a
work.* The Beattiudes...those are works you must perform.
Pick up your cross... That's a work...
Perform miracles...That's a work.
Can you help the blind to see in spirit, help the deaf to
hear in spirit
help the lame to walk in the spirit. That requires work
but also the knowledge of how and why..
These things are all done in Jesus name.
Why would we be asked to do such things if we weren't
expected to?
Why not work out your own salvation?
Why hang around the planet and preach & holler if we're
not going to have to practice *doing?*
(This is the way I see it, it may not be the way you see it)
You do as you see it, I'll do as I see it...
Sensi
> On Jul 2, 2:42 pm, "Diana" <shechin...@reborn.com> wrote:
>> X-No-Archive: Yes
>>
>> "Sensi" <sensi4si...@home.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:4IidnV4s1YP-u9DX...@accessus.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Rod wrote:
>>>> Matt wrote:
>>>>> posted with permission
>>>>> http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-lose-salvation.html
>>>>> Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
>>>>> walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each
>>>>> of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are
>>>>> faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior
>>>>> (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).
>>>>> So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation?
>>>>> Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to
>>>>> examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what
>>>>> losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:
>>>>> is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!� (2 Corinthians
>>>>> 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature
>>>>> the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.
>>>>> things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty
>>>>> way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the
>>>>> 1:18-19). The word �redeemed� refers to a purchase being made, a price
>>>>> being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have
>>>>> to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of
>>>>> Christ.
>>>>> A Christian is justified. Therefore, since we have been justified
>>>>> receive Jesus as Savior are declared righteous� by God. For a
>>>>> Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and
>>>>> A Christian is promised eternal life. For God so loved the world that
>>>>> he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall
>>>>> promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises,
>>>>> salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is
>>>>> promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by
>>>>> taking away eternal life?
>>>>> A Christian is guaranteed glorification. And those he predestined, he
>>>>> also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified,
>>>>> he also glorified (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1,
>>>>> justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans
>>>>> 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies.
>>>>> Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection
>>>>> body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is
>>>>> in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those
>>>>> whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.
>>>>> Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared.
>>>>> Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose
>>>>> salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when
>>>>> we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation
>>>>> could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be
>>>>> un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be
>>>>> lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose
>>>>> salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His
>>>>> The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot
>>>>> lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and
>>>>> continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are
>>>>> Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem
>>>>> declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral
>>>>> lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the
>>>>> faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John
>>>>> 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not
>>>>> continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and
>>>>> deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.
>>>>> No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a
>>>>> Christian from God�s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and
>>>>> able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude
>>>>> 24-25, To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you
>>>>> before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the
>>>>> only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
>>>>> Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
>>>> I'd say that Christs words trump everyone else, wouldn't you ?
>>>> Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter
>>>> into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who
>>>> is in heaven.
>>> Sensi:
>>> That's an interesting scripture.. I've been told on numerous occasions
>>> that good works won't get you anywhere.
>>> This verse looks like it says... DO.
>> Here is another one.
>>
>> James 2:14-26
>
> That person's faith can be dead through the lack of works that glorify
> God, but that doesn't mean they are no longer a Child of God and cast
> into hell because of it.
>
> How many ways can it be said? You don't lose your salvation if you
> don't do stuff - salvation isn't bought, it's a free gift from God.
> And Scripture clearly backs this up (if you look for it correctly).
Sensi:
How about you can't lose forgiveness but you still have to
live and be a decent person which is a way of saying you are
working out your salvation...
THere has to be principles to live by and godly rules to
follow or people go nuts and lose their purpose for living
and then act like heathens and end up in hell on earth.
Christians too!
<Kelly>
> Sensi:
> The Will of Jesus's Father calls for *all* of us to be
> sacrificial.
Uhh...what? Where do you find that in the Bible?
> All of us could be Messiahs (saviors)
Uhh...what? Where do you find that in the Bible?
> and help
> heal the sick, but we'd rather play sick and whine..
Uhh...sure, okay - whatever you say...(???)
> We
> could all be
> Saviors by telling people they're forgiven but we always
> have to find something they can't be forgiven for or a
> reason they're not.. We can all pick up our cross and follow
> but who has that kind of courage?
You are waaayyy out in left field on this.
> Jesus is not speaking
>
> > of works equating salvation. If He was, He wouldn't have said in
> > verse 22, "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not
> > prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your
> > name perform many miracles?"
>
> Sensi:
> There is a foundation it's called forgiveness and it's so
> concrete that you cannot change it...It's not just for you
> or for those of a certain religion. It's for all!
Whaaaat in the world are you talking about...???
<snipped remaining unprovoked, irrational tangent that makes little to
no sense>
Here...I have a great idea...
<<< P L O N K !!! >>>
Back into the whackadoodle bin you go...bye!
Sensi
Sensi:
Lol,
She just killed that scripture all to pieces.
Threw it out like a hot potato.
Just give me *MY* salvation but please don't make me
grow up and do anything for myself.
<<kêllÿ>>
> Lol,
> She just killed that scripture all to pieces.
> Threw it out like a hot potato.
> Just give me *MY* salvation but please don't make me
> grow up and do anything for myself.
Excuse me, but...what? I never said any such thing - I've never said
"don't do works because you don't have to in order to be saved".
Funny...you accuse Randy of putting words in people's mouths but
that's exactly what you just did to me.
I'm done with you - you're poisonous.
Michael Christ
Michael Christ
"Randy �" <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:v5ap455na8d6sjqfv...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:15:44 GMT,
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article <Qx13m.2208$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> "Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Correction...
>>
>>Jargon...Randy.
>>
>>Just jargon.
>>
>>It doesn't give you full assurance, and never will.
>
>
> On the contrary. The only way you can have full assurance of
> God's love, is if He predestines you to glory (Romans
> 8:30ff.). That's how we know nothing will be able to separate
> us from the love of God.
>
> And the only way we can have divine love for God, and the
> power to yield to Him in our daily walk, is by first having an
> established position in Christ. All the epistles begin by
> showing our established position in Christ, then exhort us to
> walk according to that, not vise versa.
>
> Read Romans 6.
>
>
>>Only a total love can do that...total.
>
>
> ibid. See Romans 8.
Michael Christ
> On Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:10:00 GMT,
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article <ss13m.2207$ze1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> "Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>"Randy �" <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> On Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:48:27 GMT,
>>> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
>>> Article <%f03m.2197$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
>>> "Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>What a load theological man-made scripturally fleshly suitability.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the preface to your comments below.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I know why you people never talk about being crucified, losing your
>>>>life,
>>>>offering up your body as a living sacrifice. You prefer to be
>>>>positionally
>>>>comfortable in your sin.
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a complete lie and misrepresentation. Not only does it
>>> not follow that if God gives you a secure, saved, and
>>> sanctified position in Christ, that you will remain in your
>>> sin, and fail to walk in obedience and sacrifice, but our
>>> practical sanctification, and the personal experience of
>>> sacrificing, taking up you cross, and following Christ,
>>> _depends_ _entirely_ on our positional standing in Christ, and
>>> God's sovereign purpose to bring us to glory.
>>>
>>> Read Romans 6, for example. It is only _because_ of our
>>> position in Christ, having been baptized into His death to sin
>>> and resurrection to newness of life by the Holy Spirit, that
>>> we obtain the power to yield to Him in our daily walk.
>>>
>>> It is only because our position is secure in Christ, and
>>> because God has predestined to bring us to glory, that we will
>>> be saved not only from the penalty of our sin, but also from
>>> the power and presence of it, or that anyone can be assured
>>> they will also walk in faith, obedience, and personal
>>> sacrifice during their life, instead of being separated from
>>> the love of God.
>>>
>>> It would be impossible to live a life yielded to God, and in
>>> sacrifice for Him, without first having a secure, positional
>>> standing and enablement in Christ.
>>
>>Theological jardon.
>
>
> Do you accept Romans 6 as the word of God, or not? If so, it
> plainly shows that you have to be baptized into Christ's death
> and resurrection, by the Holy Spirit, before you can then
> yield your members as instruments of righteousness to God. If
> not, then what do you consider to be the inspired,
> authoritative word of God?
>
>
>>You don't love Him with all your heart.
>
>
> It does not follow that if you have to have an established
> position in Christ, before you can have God's power to yield
> to Him and make personal sacrifices for him, that you are
> therefore one who cannot or does not love God.
>
> On the contrary, you cannot love God with a divine love, or
> yield to Him with divine enablement or motives, unless you
> already have Christ living in you, through an established
> position in Him. All the epistles show that it is on the
> basis of our established position in Christ, that we then walk
> in Him.
You're head is too full of theology Randy.
You have to love God with all your heart.
He is able to transform a heart that cannot love to a heart that does.
With Him, all things are possible.
Put your bible down for a time, and talk with Him; ask, seek, knock until
you convince Him you truly seek Him and not just want to accumulate head
knowledge.
Take this advice because if you don't you are not going to make it.
There ain't no 'positionally righteous' anything, it is bucket with a hole
in it. In fact it is a piece of plastic on the ground that the religious
world calls a bucket. You are either righteous through and through or you
are not.
Love is the answer, not scripture theory.
Michael Christ
Sensi
> On Jul 2, 4:03 pm, Sensi <sensi4si...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> Lol,
>> She just killed that scripture all to pieces.
>> Threw it out like a hot potato.
>> Just give me *MY* salvation but please don't make me
>> grow up and do anything for myself.
>
> Excuse me, but...what? I never said any such thing - I've never said
> "don't do works because you don't have to in order to be saved".
Sensi:
Maybe we got our wires crossed but you have said all along
that you don't have to work out your salvation.
> Funny...you accuse Randy of putting words in people's mouths but
> that's exactly what you just did to me.
Sensi:
I don't recall doing that so if you wouldn't mind could you
refresh my action on that with a copy.
>
> I'm done with you - you're poisonous.
>
Sensi:
That's fine. The only thing I harp about is people saying
they're saved and then acting like it doesn't matter what
they say and do. Sorry if you got in the crossfire of that.
I kind of know how Jesus felt when the people
(pharisees)read to him their scriptures and accused him of
all sorts of things when he told them to follow him in
thought, deed and action. They killed him cause they didn't
want to be responsible for their actions but He forgave them
anyway.
Rod
And again, this time understand what is being said, please...
Mat 7:21 �Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT he that DOETH the WILL of
my FATHER who is in heaven.
Heb 10:23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver
not; for he is faithful that promised:
Heb 10:24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and
good works;
Heb 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of
some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the
day drawing nigh.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the
knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a
fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without
compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged
worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted
the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing,
and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
--
I
> Anyone who takes the Bible seriously, knows damn well that
> homosexuality is an abomination
Anyone who knows anyhthing about biological sciences knows that your
fundamentalist homophobic hatred is totally incorrect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
God's promises are intended for every human being This includes gay men and
lesbians. How tragic it is that the Christian Church has excluded and
persecuted people who are homosexual! We are all created with powerful needs
for personal relationships. Our quality of life depends upon the love we
share with others whether family or friends, partners or peers. Yet,
lesbians and gay men facing hostile attitudes in society often are denied
access to healthy relationships. Jesus Christ calls us to find ultimate
meaning in life through a personal relationship with our Creator. This
important spiritual union can bring healing and strength to all of our human
relationships.
Not a Sin, Not a Sickness
For many centuries, the Christian Church's attitude toward human sexuality
was very negative: sex was for procreation, not for pleasure; women and
slaves were considered property to be owned by males; and many expressions
of heterosexuality, like homosexuality, were considered sinful. Such
tradition often continues to influence churches today. Many teach that women
should be subordinate to men, continue to permit forms of discrimination
against peoples of color, and condemn homosexuals. They say that all
homosexual acts are sinful, often referring to their interpretation of
scripture. Other churches today are influenced by a century of
psychoanalytic thought promoted through a powerful minority in the field of
medicine. They see homosexuality as some kind of sickness Although this view
has now been soundly discredited by the medical profession, some churches
and clergy continue to be influenced by the idea. They say that homosexuals
are "imperfect" and in need of "healing."
The good news is that, since 1968, when Metropolitan Community Church was
founded, the emergence of a strong lesbian and gay community, and the
conclusions of new scientific studies on homosexuality have forced the
Christian Church to reexamine these issues. A growing number of biblical and
theological scholars now recognize that Scripture does not condemn loving,
responsible homosexual relationships. Therefore, gay men and lesbians should
he accepted just as they are in Christian churches, and homosexual
relationships should be celebrated and affirmed!
About the Bible
The Bible is a collection of writings which span more than a thousand years
recounting the history of God's relationship with the Hebrew and Christian
people. It was written in several languages, embraces many literary forms,
and reflects cultures very different from our own. These are important
considerations for properly understanding the Bible in its context. There
are vast differences in doctrines between various Christian denominations,
all of which use the same bible. Such differences have led some Christians
to claim that other Christians are not really Christians at all! Biblical
interpretation and theology differ from church to church.
Biblical interpretation and theology also change from time to time.
approximately 150 years ago in the United States, some Christian teaching
held that there was a true-fold moral order: black and white. Whites were
thought to be superior to blacks, therefore blacks were to be subservient
and slavery was an institution ordained by God. Clergy who supported such an
abhorrent idea claimed the authority of the Bible. The conflict over slavery
led to divisions which gave birth to some major Christian denominations.
These same denominations, of course, do not support slavery today. Did the
Bible change? No, their interpretation of the Bible did!
New Information Refutes Old ideas
What influences lead us to new ways of understanding Scripture! New
scientific information, serial changes, and personal experience are perhaps
the greatest forcesfor change in the way we interpret the Bible and develop
our beliefs. Scientific awareness of homosexual orientation did not exist
until the nineteenth century. Most Christian churches, including
Metropolitan Community Church, believe the Bible was inspired by God and
provides a key source of authority for the Christian faith. Therefore, what
the Bible teaches on any subject, including sexuality is of great
significance The problem, however, is that sometimes the Bible says very
little about some subjects; and popular attitudes about those matters are
determined much more by other sources, which are then read into the biblical
statements. This has been particularly true of homosexuality. But
fortunately, recent scholarship refutes many previous assumptions and
conclusions.
GENESIS 19:1-25
What was the sin of Sodom? Some "televangelists" carelessly proclaim that
God destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah because of
"homosexuality." Although some theologians have equated the sin of Sodom
with homosexuality, a careful look at Scripture corrects such ignorance.
Announcing judgment on these cities in Genesis 18, God sends two angels to
Sodom, where Abraham's nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home.
Genesis 19 records that "all the people from every quarter" surround Lot's
house demanding the release of his visitors so "we might know them." The
Hebrew word for "know" in this case, yanha, usually means "have thorough
knowledge of." It could also express intent to examine the visitors'
credentials, or on rare occasions the term implies sexual intercourse. If
the latter was the author's intended meaning, it would have been a clear
case of attempted gang rape.
Horrified at this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules, Lot attempts
to protect the visitors by offering his two daughters to the angry crowd, a
morally outrageous act by today's standards. The people of Sodom refuse, so
the angels render them blind. Lot and his family are then rescued by the
angels as the cities are destroyed.
Several observations are important. First, the judgment on these cities for
their wickedness had been announced prior to the alleged homosexual
incident. Second, all of Sodom's people participated in the assault on Lot's
house; in no culture has more than a small minority of the population been
homosexual. Third, Lot's offer to release his daughters suggests he knew his
neighbors to have heterosexual interests. Fourth, if the issue was sexual,
why did God spare Lot, who immediately commits incest with his daughters!
Most importantly, why do all the other passages of Scripture referring to
this account fail to raise the issue of homosexuality?
What was the Sin of Sodom?
Ezekiel 16:48-50 states it clearly: people of Sodom, like many people today,
had abundance of material goods. But they failed to meet the needs of the
poor, and they worshipped idols. The sins of injustice and idolatry plague
every generation. We stand under the same judgment if we create false gods
or treat others with injustice.
LEVITICUS 18:22 & 20:13
Christians today do not follow the rules and rituals described in Leviticus.
But some ignore its defini- tions of their own "uncleanness" while quoting
Leviticus to condemn "homosexuals." Such abuse of Scripture distorts the Old
Testament meaning and denies a New Testament message. "You shall not lie
with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." These words
occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a ritual manual for Israel's
priests. Their meaning can only be fully appreciated in the historical and
cultural context of the ancient Hebrew people. Israel, in a unique place as
the chosen people of one God, was to avoid the practices of other peoples
and gods. Hebrew religion, characterized by the revelation of one God, stood
in continuous tension with the religion of the surrounding Canaanites who
worshipped the multiple gods of fertility cults. Canaanite idol worship,
which featured female and male cult prostitution as noted in Deuteronomy
23:17, repeatedly compromised Israel's loyalty to God. The Hebrew word for a
male cult prostitute, qadesh, is mistranslated "sodomite" in some versions
of the Bible.
What is an "Abomination"?
An abomination is that which God found detestable because it was unclean,
disloyal, or unjust. Several Hebrew words were so translated, and the one
found in Leviticus, toevah, is usually associated with idolatry, as in
Ezekiel, where it occurs numerous times. Given the strong association of
toevah with idolatry and the Canaanite religious practice of cult
prostitution, the use of toevah regarding male same-sex acts in Leviticus
calls into question any conclusion that such condemnation also applies to
loving, responsible homosexual relationships. Rituals and rules found in the
Old Testament were given to preserve the distinctive characteristics of the
religion and culture of Israel. But, as stated in Galatians 3:22-25,
Christians are no longer bound by these Jewish laws. By faith we live in
Jesus Christ, not in Leviticus. To be sure, ethical concerns apply to all
cultures and peoples in every age. Such concerns were ultimately reflected
by Jesus Christ, who said nothing about homosexuality, but a great deal
about love, justice, mercy and faith.
ROMANS 1:24-27
Most New Testament books, including the four Gospels, are silent on same-sex
acts, and Paul is the only author who makes any reference to the subject.
The most negative statement by Paul regarding same-sex acts occurs in Romans
1:24-27 where, in the context of a larger argument on the need of all people
for the gospel of Jesus Christ, certain homosexual behavior is given as an
example of the "uncleanness" of idolatrous Gentiles. Does this passage refer
to all homosexual acts, or to certain homosexual behavior known to Paul's
readers? Romans was written to Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome, who
would have been familiar with the infamous sexual excesses of their
contemporaries, especially Roman emperors. They would also have been aware
of tensions in the early Church regarding Gentiles and observance of the
Jewish laws, as noted in Acts 15 and Paul's letter to the Galatians. Jewish
laws in Leviticus mentioned male same-sex acts in the context of idolatry.
What is "Natural"?
Significant to Paul's discussion is the fact that these "unclean" Gentiles
exchanged that which was "natural" for them -physin, in the Greek text- for
something "unnatural," para physin. In Romans 11:24, God acts in an
"unnatural" way, para physin, to accept the Gentiles. "Unnatural" in these
passages does not refer to violation of so-called laws of nature, but rather
implies action contradicting one's own nature. In view of this, we should
observe that it is "unnatural," para physin, for a person today with a
lesbian or gay sexual orientation to attempt living a heterosexual
lifestyle.
Romans 1.26 is the only statement in the Bible with a possible reference to
lesbian behavior, although the specific intent of this verse is unclear.
Some authors have seen in this passage a reference to women adopting a
dominant role in heterosexual relationships. Given the repressive cultural
expectations placed on women in Paul's time, such a meaning may be possible.
The homosexual practices cited in Romans 1:24-27 were believed to result
from idolatry and are associated with some very serious offenses as noted in
Romans 1. Taken in this larger context, it should be obvious that such acts
are significantly different from loving, responsible lesbian and gay
relationships seen today.
I CORINTHIANS 6:9 & I TIMOTHY 1:10
Any consideration of New Testament statements on same-sex acts must
carefully view the social context of the Greco-Roman culture in which Paul
ministered. Prostitution and pederasty (sexual relationships of adult men
with boys) were the most commonly known male same-sex acts.
In I Corinthians 6:9, Paul condemns those who are "effeminate" and "abusers
of themselves with man- kind," as translated in the King James version.
Unfortunately, some newer translations are worse, rendering these words
"homosexuals." Recent scholarship unmasks the homophobia behind such
mistranslations. The first word - malakos, in the Greek text-which has been
translated "effeminate" or "soft," most likely refers to someone who lacks
discipline or moral control. The word is used elsewhere in the New Testament
but never with reference to sexuality. The second word, arsenokoitai, occurs
once each in I Corinthians and I Timothy, but nowhere else in other
literature of the period. It is derived from two Greek words, one meaning
"males" and the other "beds," a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Other
Greek words were commonly used to describe homosexual behavior but do not
appear here. The larger context of I Corinthians 6 shows Paul extremely
concerned with prostitution, so it is very possible he was referring to male
prostitutes. But many experts now attempting to translate these words have
reached a simple conclusion: their precise meaning is uncertain.
No Law Against Love
The rarity with which Paul discusses any form of same-sex behavior and the
ambiguity in references attributed to him make it extremely unsound to
conclude any sure position in the New Testament on homosexuality, especially
in the context of loving, responsible relationships. Since any arguments
must be made from silence, it is much more reliable to turn to great
principles of the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. Love God
with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Do not judge
others, lest you be judged. The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love ... against
such there is no law.
One thing is abundantly clear, as Paul stated in Galatians 5:14: "the whole
Law is fulfilled in one statement, 'You shall love your neighbor as
yourself."'
----------------------------------------------
OTHER INSIGHTS
"The homosexuality the New Testament opposes is the pederasty of the
Greco-Roman culture; the attitudes toward pederasty and, in part, the
language used to oppose it are informed by the Jewish background."
Robin Scroggs Professor of Biblical Theology Union Theological Seminary, New
York City
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- --
"One cannot be absolutely certain that the two key words in I Corinthians
6:9 are meant as references to male homosexual behavior."
Victor Paul Furnish, Professor of New Testament Perkins School of Theology,
Dallas
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- --
"The strongest New Testament argument against homosexual activity as
intrinsically immoral has been derived traditionally from Romans 1:26, where
this activity is indicated as para physin. The normal English translation
for this has been 'against nature.' Two interpretations can be justified
concerning what Paul meant by the phrase. It could refer to the individual
pagan, who goes beyond his own sexual appetites in order to indulge in new
sexual pleasures. The second possibility is that physis refers to the
'nature' of the chosen people who were forbidden by Levitical law to have
homosexual relations."
John J. McNeill, Adjunct Professor of Psychology Union Theological Seminary,
New York City
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- --
"A close reading of Paul's discussion of homosexual acts in Romans 1 does
not support the common modern interpretation of the passage. Paul did not
deny the existence of a distinction between clean and unclean and even
assumed that Jewish Christians would continue to observe the purity code. He
refrained, however, from identifying physical impurity with sin or demanding
that Gentiles adhere to that code."
L. William Countryman, Professor of New Testament Church Divinity School of
the Pacific, Berkeley
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- --
"The Hebrew word 'toevah,' here translated 'abomination,' does not usually
signify something intrinsically evil, like rape or theft (discussed
elsewhere in Leviticus), but something which is ritually unclean for Jews,
like eating pork or engaging in intercourse during menstruation, both of
which are prohibited in these same chapters."
John Boswell, Professor of History Yale University, New Haven
----------------------------------------------
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://www.geocities.com/ninure - Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan
Community Churches http://www.ufmcc.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I
<snippth>
This is the kind of thing that exposes you as a glaring, deliberate liar:
I
> Who, me?
How's your Asperger syndrome, Robert Lloyd Haugh?
--
The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
(a) a very stong emphasis on the inerrancy of the Bible, the absence from it
of any sort of error;
(b) a strong hostility to modern theology and to the methods, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible;
(c) an assurance that those who do not share their religious viewpoint are
not really 'true Christians' at all.
- James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977) p.1
I
> Lot did not know they were going to try and force the men to
> have sex with them when he said it was "wicked". All he knew
> at that time, is that they were asking for it.
SO ... Lot offers his virgin daughters to the supposed "homosexual"
potentail angel rapers.
Didn't Lot know that homosexual men are not sexually interested in females
????????????
>>> (Leviticus 20:13)
>>Levitical Holiness Code specifically for the Levitical Priesthood.
>
> That was not the code just for Levitical priests.
Yes it was! Do some serious bible study!!!!!!
You have just proved you are a liar, right in the face of the evidence.
I
> Interesting that some Christians have said works don't get you anywhere
> nor is it possible to work out your salvation.
>
> *Addition*
>
> Jesus gave instructions, offered guidance, spoke about do as I have
> done...
>
> And yet his teachings go by the wayside in favor of just give me my
> salvation so I don't have to anything for myself.
>
> Interesting that there are 2 completely different sets of rules to follow.
WHAT must you do to be saved??????
Which is the ONE and ONLY correct way?????
29 DIFFERENT POSSIBILITIES FROM THE BIBLE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1.. Say the right things.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified. -- Matthew 12:37
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2. Do the right things.
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of
life. -- John 5:29
For you render to each one according to his works. -- Psalm 62:12
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to
the fruit of his doings. -- Jeremiah 17:10
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that
which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul. -- Ezekiel 18:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels,
and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16.27
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of
my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave
me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I
was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. --
Matthew 25:34-36
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the
hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law
will be justified. -- Romans 2:6, 13
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one
may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done,
whether good or bad. -- 2 Corinthians 5:10
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform
themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to
their works. -- 2 Corinthians 11:15
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's
work. -- 1 Peter 1:17
I will give unto every one of you according to your works. -- Revelation
2:23
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books
were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the
dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
judged every man according to their works. -- Revelation 20:12-13
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3.. Believe the right things.
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. -- Romans 3:28
Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord Jesus Christ. -- Romans 5:1
A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of
Jesus Christ. -- Galatians 2:16
For by grace are ye saved through faith. -- Ephesians 2:8
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4.. Do and believe the right things.
Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- James 2:17
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
5.. Do the will of God.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven. -- Matthew 7:21
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
6.. Believe in Jesus.
Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
life. -- John 3:16
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life -- John 3:36
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. -- Acts 16:31
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
7.. Be born again.
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. -- John
3:3
8.. Hear the words of Jesus and believe in whoever sent him.
He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath
everlasting life. -- John 5:24
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
9.. Be born of water and the spirit.
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into
the kingdom of God. -- John 3:5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
10.. Be washed by the Holy Ghost.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his
mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy
Ghost. -- Titus 3:5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
11.. Be converted and become like a little child.
Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not
enter into the kingdom of heaven. -- Matthew 18:3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
12.. Believe and be baptized.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. -- Mark 16:16
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
13.. Call upon the name of the Lord.
Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. -- Acts
2:21
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
14.. Confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead.
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be
saved. -- Romans 10:9
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
15.. Follow the commandments (at least some of them).
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto
him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit
adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour
thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. --
Matthew 19:17-19
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to
the tree of life. -- Revelation 22:14
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
16.. Keep the commandments (at least some of them), give all your money to
the poor, and follow Jesus.
And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to
inherit eternal life? ... Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit
adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy
father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
...thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the
poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.-- Luke
18:18-22
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
17.. Keep the commandments and the faith of Jesus.
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the
commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. -- Revelation 14:12
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
18.. Endure to the end.
He that endureth to the end shall be saved. -- Matthew 10:22, 24:13,
Mark 13:13
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
19.. Wait until you die and then get baptized.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead
rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? -- 1 Corinthians
15:29
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
20.. Don't judge other people.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. -- Matthew 7:1, Lk.6:37
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
21.. Have lots of babies.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the
transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing. -- 1
Timothy 2:14-15
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
22.. Don't defile yourself with women. (Be a virgin male.)
...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the
earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are
virgins. -- Revelation 14:3-4
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
23.. Be given by the Father and come to the Son.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to
me I will in no wise cast out. -- John 6:37
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
24.. Be chosen (predestinated) by God.
For many are called, but few are chosen. -- Matthew 22:14
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate ... Moreover whom he
did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also
justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.-- Romans 8:29-30
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or
evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of
works, but of him that calleth. -- Romans 9:11
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we
should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having predestinated us
... according to the good pleasure of his will. -- Ephesians 1:4-5
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
25.. Be poor, not rich.
Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the
kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom
of God. -- Matthew 19:23-24
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your
consolation. -- Luke 6:24
Ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon
you. -- James 5:1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
26. Be more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees.
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes
and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. --
Matthew 5:20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
27.. Eat Jesus' body and blood.
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have
no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal
life; and I will raise him up at the last day. -- John 6:53-54
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
28.. Just ask.
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it
shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that
seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.-- Matthew
7:7-8
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
29.. All you need is love.
Love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God. -- 1 John 4:7
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he
answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy
neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this
do, and thou shalt live. -- Luke 10:26
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
dolf
guy, Bruno with a horse and Olive Cohen at the Farmer's Market holding a
rabbit?
Should I expect to go to a Shaver's shop to get a plough for my face?
<<k�ll�>> <rosie...@rocketmail.com> posting-host=71.112.62.234; wrote:
> On Jul 2, 4:03 pm, Sensi <sensi4si...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> Lol,
>> She just killed that scripture all to pieces.
>> Threw it out like a hot potato.
>> Just give me *MY* salvation but please don't make me
>> grow up and do anything for myself.
>
> Excuse me, but...what? I never said any such thing - I've never said
> "don't do works because you don't have to in order to be saved".
> Funny...you accuse Randy of putting words in people's mouths but
> that's exactly what you just did to me.
>
> I'm done with you - you're poisonous.
>
Sensi
Sensi:
What about
Vera 6: Thou shalt go through me to receive slavation.
What I didn't find was a Baptist church with steeples and
offering plates, altars and a preacher to pay..
Where do they fit in the picture of salvation?
I
>> WHAT must you do to be saved??????
>> Which is the ONE and ONLY correct way?????
>> 29 DIFFERENT POSSIBILITIES FROM THE BIBLE
...
> What I didn't find was a Baptist church with steeples and offering plates,
> altars and a preacher to pay..
> Where do they fit in the picture of salvation?
Oh, that's an optional sales add on.
FUNDY PROMO & SALES ADD ONS
The Promo is "Accept Jesus into your heart and get the free gift of
salvation. The End."
When you accept the Promo you get lumbered with the "Sales Add Ons"
- Join the church
- Join Bible Study
- Join Prayer meetings
- Join your "club" ... Men's Meeting or Women's meeting depending on your
gender (homosexuals and transgendered Christians not welcome)
- attend all regularly
- listen to the sermoan and obey ... or else
- pray regularly
- read your bible regularly
- pay your tithes
- pay your offerings
- pay your love gifts
- volunteer for unpaid work at the church
- evangelise others
- don't attend other churches, they aren't spiritual like we are
- don't associate with your former friends and family if they are not Trew
Kristyuns
- don't participate in art works that are not sanctioned by this church ...
bans may be applicable on certain books, films, music, dance ... check with
the pastor
- never disagree with your pastor, elders, deacons, or any member of a
ministry team ... they are infallible
- vote for conservative Right-wing politicians because the Left is satanic,
of the devil, demonic, nonChristian, antiChristian, secular humanist,
evilooshunist
- etc etc etc etc
Yawn .......
Rod
> <<k�ll�>> wrote:
> >On Jul 2, 4:03 pm, Sensi <sensi4si...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Lol,
> > > She just killed that scripture all to pieces.
> > > Threw it out like a hot potato.
> > > Just give me MY salvation but please don't make me
> > > grow up and do anything for myself.
> >
> > Excuse me, but...what? I never said any such thing - I've never
> > said "don't do works because you don't have to in order to be
> > saved".
>
>
>
> Sensi:
> Maybe we got our wires crossed but you have said all along that you
> don't have to work out your salvation.
>
> > Funny...you accuse Randy of putting words in people's mouths but
> > that's exactly what you just did to me.
>
>
> Sensi:
> I don't recall doing that so if you wouldn't mind could you refresh
> my action on that with a copy.
> >
> > I'm done with you - you're poisonous.
> >
>
> Sensi:
> That's fine. The only thing I harp about is people saying they're
> saved and then acting like it doesn't matter what they say and do.
> Sorry if you got in the crossfire of that. I kind of know how Jesus
> felt when the people (pharisees)read to him their scriptures and
> accused him of all sorts of things when he told them to follow him in
> thought, deed and action. They killed him cause they didn't want to
> be responsible for their actions but He forgave them anyway.
Congratulations, me thinks you've just passed a very important test.
--
Rod
Better to be safe than sorry !
> >
> >
> > Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
> > enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my
> > Father who is in heaven.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> While looking for answers on another question found this article.
> >>
> >> God Bless
> >>
> >> Matt
--
Jani
"I" <Iam@home0000362> wrote in message news:4a4d4d6f$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Maybee" <may...@home.com> wroteth:
>
>> Who, me?
>
>
> How's your Asperger syndrome, Robert Lloyd Haugh?
I don't think this is Bob. Maybee posts to the baptist ng under another
nym - I forget what - but it's not the same person as Bob.
Jani
Sensi
Sensi:
Thank you, I hope so.
Maybee
"Diana" <shech...@reborn.com> wrote in message
news:7b4cmrF...@mid.individual.net...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>
>
> "Maybee" <may...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:h2i970$qvi$1...@news.eternal-september.org...>> news:se4p45pdnuk76mskg...@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 23:41:23 -0700,
>>> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
>>> Article <h2hafj$6q9$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> "Maybee" <may...@home.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"<<k�ll�>>" <rosie...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:be6b75fe-1059-404f...@t13g2000yqt.googlegroups.com...
>>>>On Jul 1, 6:49 pm, Randy � <pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You're the one who doesn't get it. Homosexuality is sin,
>>>>
>>>> So far, all you have been able to provide are
>>>>Scriptures that refer to heterosexuals behaving homosexually when they
>>>>are not homosexual, temple prosititution, and idolatry.
>>>>----------------
>>>>Sorry, scripture doesn't refer to such a thing............ this is a
>>>>stretch
>>>>of your imagination!
>>>
>>>
>>> This is the kind of thing that exposes you as a glaring,
>>> deliberate liar:
>>
>>
>
> Bob/Blobert/Cactus Bob/Tom/Maybee
>
> I don't think he was talking to you but the person before you since you
> are part of the Vera fan club.
>
Well, in the meantime he explained himself.
FYI, I am not Bob/Blobert/Cactus Bob - whoever that is - and I am certainly
not part of any *club*.
As a matter of fact, I wish the *ACC people* wouldn't crosspost their
quarrels about Vera to the baptist group!
Chuck
"Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote in message
news:Sdb3m.2275$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
You can't "convince" God; only people. And anyone who advises putting one's
Bible down to better seek God cannot possibly believe the Bible is God's
inspired word.
Chuck
Chuck
"Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote in message
>
> You have to lose your life...end of story.
You first.
Chuck
Chuck
> On Wed, 1 Jul 2009 23:23:24 -0700,
> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
> Article <TnY2m.1583$%02....@newsfe15.iad>,>>news:ooum45hlsbn17hn5g...@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:57:00 -0800,
>>> In newsgroup "alt.bible",
>>> Article <mptm45d5ve7lolfqp...@4ax.com>,
>>> Matt <trdell1234@ns%gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And we know that in all things God works for the good of those
>>> who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
>>> For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to
>>> the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among
>>> many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those
>>> he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also
>>> God is for us, who can be against us? (Romans 8:28-31 NIV)
>>>
>>> God has already glorified everyone He justifies. You can't
>>> have someone get justified without also getting glorified. If
>>> someone ends up as an unbeliever, then they were never a
>>> believer to begin with.
>>>
>>> The only way you can lose salvation, is if salvation depends,
>>> even in the slightest, on your merits and work, instead of
>>> God' sovereign grace, through faith in Christ's death and
>>> resurrection. So to propose you can get saved, then lose it,
>>> is to propose that salvation is not by grace, through faith,
>>> apart from works, through faith in Christ's work alone, but
>>> also by human merit. Otherwise, "grace is no more grace, and
>>> works are no more works".
>>>
>>> The doctrine that salvation is by grace, through faith, not by
>>> man's works or merits, is clearly established in a large body
>>> of Scripture (Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, etc.). Contrary
>>> interpretations of random verse snippets here and there (e.g.
>>> Heb. 6; James, etc.) is not a sound method of interpretation.
>>> If a doctrine is clearly established in a large body of
>>> Scripture, you don't then override that with a contrary
>>> interpretation of a less clear body of Scripture, or try to
>>> force the large, clear body of doctrine to conform to the
>>> proposed, contrary interpretation from the smaller, less clear
>>> body of doctrine. Rather, you interpret the smaller, less
>>> clear, in light of the truth clearly revealed in the larger
>>> body.
>>
>>Romans 13:11 (NKJV)
>>11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of
>>sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
>
>
> Romans shows God saves us from the penalty (1 - 5), power (6 -
> 7), and presence (8) of our sin, through faith in Christ's
> death and resurrection. In our standing with God in Christ,
> all occur instantly and permanently, upon faith in Christ. 1
> John 5:13, for example, says eternal life is in the Son, and
> that those who believe on His name, "have" eternal life, right
> here, right now, in the present tense.
>
> In our daily walk however, we do not experience complete
> freedom from our sin nature, for example, until Christ's
> return (e.g. 1 Cor. 15; 1 Thess. 4:13-18). Romans 13 is
> probably referring to that experience of being saved from the
> very presence of our sin nature, the corruptions of creation,
> false teachers, etc, when we die, or Christ returns.
>
>
>>Matthew 10:22 (KJV)
>>22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that
>>endureth
>>to the end shall be saved.
>
>
> persecutions, and the coming judgment of God in Revelation
> 19ff. Matthew 24:13 uses the same language to refer to the
> remnant of Jews who will survive the Tribulation.
Okay, we may as well do this here:
How does it matter to the fact that here Jesus speaks of salvation as a
future experience of his elect (certainly the twelve he was sending out were
of the elect, except for Judas, right?) what he was talking specifically
about what they would have to endure? It's his statement they will have to
endure to the end, coupled with his reference to a future salvation that
tells us salvation is a future event.
>
> 2) It shows who will be saved (they will be the ones who will
> be seen enduring to the end, and remaining faithful till
> death), rather than how they got saved. Enduring to the end
> is the Hallmark of true believers, because God works in them
> to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13), an has
> predestined that those He justified will also be glorified
> (Rom. 8:30).
Exactly. Little is said about what they will have to endure, or how that
will occur, only THAT they will, and when they have THEN they "shall be"
saved.
I'm not suggesting anything otherwise here. All I'm insisting upon, and I
am insisting upon it, is that we follow the many, many scriptures all of
which state or imply salvation is a future event in the life of the
believer. I'm also not suggesting that all believers are the elect, because
I don't find any biblical authority for saying that. I find biblical
authority for saying there are believers whose faith will be choked out, or
burned away by the cares of this world and the "firey" trials God sends to
test our faith, whether it be the faith of the elect or not, so we can SEE
with certainty what our hearts are like. How else would we know we need to
repent when God's word is explicit that we can't know with certainty the
state of our hearts?
Jeremiah 17:9-10 (KJV)
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can
know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man
according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
God's word tells us he searches us and tests us AFTER we first believe, not
just before, and it is how we do in those tests, whether our faith is
increased or destroyed that judges us for having truly repented or still
laboring under the deceptivness of sin. We see in the parable of the Sower
and the good ground that the stony ground "immediately receives it with joy"
(just like the elect would), but because the seed can't find a place to put
down roots in this ground, it withers away when God allows it to be tested
by "tribulations and persecution", and the believer represented by the stony
ground stumbles and falls. Likewise the thorny ground's seed grows up, but
is choked off before bearing any real friut by the "cares of the world". All
of them receive. All of them rejoice for a while and believe, but the elect
are shown to be the elect because they endure where the others do not.
Again, without saying a word about the dynamics of this preservation until
the end, the obvious point is the elect are not saved when they first
believe anymore than the reprobates are, except in a single sense:
Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
seen.
If faith is the substance of the elect's salvation, then it couldn't be
clearer that salvation's substance is not actual, but exists abstractly in
the foreknowledge of God's omniscience, tesitified to by the faith of the
elect, which is really to say by the faith of all those who have endured in
faith to the end of their lives.
.
>
> 4) This is a perfect example of how taking a verse by itself,
> can seem to promote an idea contrary to what we find clearly
> established in whole books of Scripture directly addressing
> the subject of the believers' spiritual salvation.
I'm taking this verse to be telling us that no one is now saved; that no
one, not even the elect who are alive on earth NOW are experiencing their
salvation from sin, because that salvation is clearly said to occur in the
future when Christ returns. So...
Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized SHALL BE saved
John 10:9 (KJV)
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he SHALL BE saved, and shall go
in and out, and find pasture.
Acts 2:21 (NKJV)
21 'And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
SHALL BE saved.'
Acts 15:6-11 (KJV)
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them,
Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among
us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and
believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy
Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by
faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the
disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we SHALL
BE saved, even as they.
Romans 5:1-2 (KJV)
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and
REJOICE IN HOPE of the glory of God.
Romans 5:8-11 (KJV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from
wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of
his Son, much more, being reconciled, we SHALL BE saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by
whom we have now received the atonement.
(note that when Paul says "we have now received the atonement", all of us
who deny the doctrine of limited atonement understand it is not just the
elect who have received this atonement, but the whole world: John 3:16-17, 1
John 2:2...even though only the elect will benefit from this atonement after
death)
Romans 10:11-13 (NKJV)
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to
shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over
all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD SHALL BE be saved."
In the following verses Paul compares Israel and the Church:
Romans 11:26-29 (KJV)
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out
of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as
touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
If all Israel WILL BE saved, how is it the Church is saved now? How does
the wild olive branch have what the natural olive tree doesn't when both are
promised the same thing; the common salvation?
1 Corinthians 3:15 (KJV)
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself
SHALL BE saved; yet so as by fire.
Luke 18:28-30 (NKJV)
28 Then Peter said, "See, we have left all and followed You."
29 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has
left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the
kingdom of God,
30 "who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the
age to come eternal life."
Now I am willing to listen carefully to any exposition from Scripture that
we are "saved" when we first believe, except the one which says or implies
the denial we are proceeds from a misunderstanding of a single verse. I
have provided here a full dozen passages, and, I am confident, have only
scratched the surface of what there is; all of which speak of the salvation
of the elect in the future tense. Not only do they make it clear that
"salvation" is future for the believer, but some of them, as does Luke
18:28-30 above, speak of "eternal life" as a future possession as well, thus
equating the possession of salvation with the possession of eternal life,
and speaking of BOTH in the future tense!
>
>
>>1 Peter 1:13-16 (NKJV)
>>13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope
>>fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of
>>Jesus
>>Christ;
>
>
> Which, as we see from Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 15, and 1
> Thessalonians 4:13-18, is deliverance from the presence of our
> sin nature, the corruption of our flesh, false teachers, etc.,
> at the translation of our bodies, or glorification when Christ
> returns.
And is not this deliverance yet to come an integral part of our salvation?
Do we own a car if it doesn't have an engine or transmission?
>
>
>>14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as
>>in your ignorance;
>>15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
>>16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."
>>
>>
>>
>>All these testify to the fact salvation is the *hope* of the believer; a
>>future event awaiting those who endure to the end, not the present
>>possession of the believer when they first believe.
>
>
> In our standing with God, in Christ, we receive justification,
> sanctification, and glorification, immediately and
> permanently, upon faith in Him (Romans 1 - 5; Romans 8:30),
> and already "have" eternal life (1 John 5:13), which is Christ
> living in us, the hope of glory (Rom. 5:2; Col. 1:27). Old
> things _are_ passed away, all things _are_ become new (2 Cor.
> 5:17), we _have_ been translated from the kingdom of darkness
> to the kingdom of light (Col. 1:13), etc.
What you are doing here is demonstrating that there needs to be a
reconciliation between Scripture speaking in both the present and the
future tense concerning certain things, among them "salvation" and
"eternal life". We can't expect to arrive at a reasonable reconciliation of
this inspired speech by taking one side and ignoring or minimizing the
other.
There is a big difference between the present and future tense in a
proposition,
and it is logically impossible for a present event yet to occur.
>
> As far as what we actually experience in our walk, however, we
> do not actually _experience_ salvation from things like the
> very presence of our sin nature, the corruptions of our flesh,
> false teachers, tests and trials, etc., until we die or Christ
> returns and translates our bodies, even though it's already a
> done deal in our positional standing with God. This is often
> referred to as the difference between "positional" and
> "practical" sanctification/salvation.
Apparently not by people who understand temporal becoming. Randy, if we are
talking about a temporal event, then we are locked into the realities of
tense, and it makes absolutely no sense to talk about a postional or a
practical salvation that hasn't temporally occurred. Our "positional"
relationship to an event that hasn't occurred is exactly the same as our
"practical' relationship to it, which is to say, we don't HAVE any
relationship to a temporal event that hasn't yet occurred. God does, for
all such possible temporal events that haven't actually occurred are known
to him as clearly and distinctly as are all the temporal events that have
actually occured, and by his knowledge of them he is free to speak with
authority about them...and often does. But God's foreknowledge, which he
reveals to us in general terms and "principled" truths gives us no ground
for saying we are experiencing a temporal event that has yet to occur. His
word says our only avenue for experiencing these things is by faith, and
what one has faith will happen, obviously hasn't happened yet.
>
>
>>Shouldn't we then make a distinction between "believers" and the "elect
>>according to the foreknowledge of God"; those whom God has "predestined
>>according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the
>>counsel of his will (1 Peter 1:2, Eph. 1:11)? Certainly the elect cannot
>>possibly lose their salvation, and only the elect will be saved, but who
>>knows who the elect are except God?
>
>
> Yes, I believe that some of these passages are describing
> things from the outward perspective, from the standpoint of
> what people will see and experience, rather than the
> individuals' positional standing with God.
You'll have to elaborate more on what is meant by this term in this context,
at least if it's to make any sense to me. As I understand the term
"position", it refers to a condition identifiable by location or situation,
and I don't see how we can understand the believer, even the elect believer
to be in a condition identifiable by the location or situation they are in
NOW, not to mention when they first believed an called upon the name of the
Lord, with the salvation to eternal life they will eventually attain; at
least in the case of the elect believer. Again, there seems to be this slop
over, so to speak, between what God knows of the future and the relationship
the elect have with that future, or with God's knowledge of it. No one
knows the mind of God, and certainly no one knows her own future except God
show it to her. If someone has been shown by God to be one of the elect,
then I suppose that person, and that person only, could be said to have a
"positional" relationship with their own salvation, for then they could
identify that "position". But as for the rest of us, it appears to me God's
word is telling us we're "hoping" in "faith".
>
>
>>Chuck
Randy �
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <1eb3m.2276$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
"Michael Christ" <Jesus...@Father.com> wrote:
>Take your head out of the sand.
Do you accept the epistles as the word of God or not?