** Did Jesus Suck Cock? **
Joseph Carney
>
> Mark Akers (ak...@pop.gate.net) wrote:
> : On 10 Dec 1995 22:36:59 GMT, Robert K Mertz <bibl...@westol.com>
> : wrote:
> :
> : >Geoff Bjorgan <geof...@sasknet.sk.ca> wrote:
> : >>> I'm wondering if the historical records indicate whether or not Jesus was
> : >>> into giving head?
> : >>>
> : >>> Any input is greatly appreciated.
> : >>>
> : >>> Thanks
> : >>Father forgive them, they know not what they do.
> : >We must learn to love them and to teach them. There are those who try to
> : >destroy our ministry but those who need to, one time, pick up the cross
> : >that Jesus carried.
> :
> : You'd better be thankful that God loved scum even like you... Jesus
> : died for you, but, personally, I think it was a bad choice. You'd also
> : better be thankful that I'm not God or you'd be dead for that remark
> : about the one who saved me. I'd like to have five minutes with you:
> : I'd teach you a little respect!
>
> Looks like their answer is yes, Jesus did give good head.
>
> Wonder if he ever took it up the ass.
>
> --
The answer is NO. Since according to Jewish Law to be a
homosexual is to be a sin, Jesus could not be a homosexual.
Joseph Carney
>
> Robert K Mertz (bibl...@westol.com) wrote:
> : Go get em.....Let's try to save some people from hell!!!
>
> If Heaven is populated with the likes of you, please, let me go to hell!
> I'd rather be "permitted" to love a person of my own gender, be
> "permitted" to have my own beliefs, be "permitted" to live without the
> CRAP your so-called god holds over all his little sheep, and burn in
> hell! Sounds like a lot less of a nasty place than your sick heaven.
>
> -- You have that choice to make. If moral values mean nothing to you,
if trying to be nice to others means nothing to you, then I hate to admit it,
you will end up there.
As for heaven being a sick place, if only seems that way because of
the way you must have been treated in the past. You sound so bitter. Yes, we
christians try to act ina moral decent way, but what's wrong with that?
Caraiva
thing about a man who has nothing but love in his heart for you and who
sacrificed his life for your salvation. Maybe you should meditate on
those thoughts.
God loves you no matter what!
coppertop
> Gandalf the White wrote:
> >
> > Mark Akers (ak...@pop.gate.net) wrote:
> > : On 10 Dec 1995 22:36:59 GMT, Robert K Mertz <bibl...@westol.com>
> > : wrote:
> > :
> > : >Geoff Bjorgan <geof...@sasknet.sk.ca> wrote:
> > : >>> I'm wondering if the historical records indicate whether or not Jesus was
> > : >>> into giving head?
> > : >>>
> > : >>> Any input is greatly appreciated.
> > : >>>
> > : >>> Thanks
> > : >>Father forgive them, they know not what they do.
> > : >We must learn to love them and to teach them. There are those who try to
> > : >destroy our ministry but those who need to, one time, pick up the cross
> > : >that Jesus carried.
> > :
> > : You'd better be thankful that God loved scum even like you... Jesus
> > : died for you, but, personally, I think it was a bad choice. You'd also
> > : better be thankful that I'm not God or you'd be dead for that remark
> > : about the one who saved me. I'd like to have five minutes with you:
> > : I'd teach you a little respect!
about what you would expect from a person whose faith is so shaky that it
can't stand a little fun poked at it.
Rod Swift
> It's difficult to understand how a person such as yourself can say such a
> thing about a man who has nothing but love in his heart for you and who
> sacrificed his life for your salvation. Maybe you should meditate on
> those thoughts.
He also sucked cock.
Rod
--
| ... ..... | Hey Fred (Cherry), I think ya |*******|
| + + + + + + + + |need a big dick up your ass soon,| ***** |
| * * * * * * * * |to clear out all that shit that's| *** |
|R o d S w i f t| backlogged into your brain!!! | * |
Benjamin Allen Folsom III
writes:
>
>>> > : >Geoff Bjorgan <geof...@sasknet.sk.ca> wrote:
>>> > : >>> I'm wondering if the historical records indicate whether or
not
>Jesus was
>>> > : >>> into giving head?
>>> > : >>>
>>> > : >>> Any input is greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Unless you confess your Sins and accept Jesus as your savior.
>He is going to "FLAME" you for this post.
>
God's Word states,"We are all like grasshoppers in His sight"
When asked to come & follow Jesus one asked to go bury his recently
departed parents, and the Lord replied to "let the dead burry the
dead".
Do you become upset over what a grasshopper does as you walk through
the field? Not likely. The only looser here is the grasshopper, and
that through ignorance.
Jesus is so big, so awesome that our minds cannot begin to understand
all of Him.
Ben...
Tag Russtic
ari...@ix.netcom.com(Benjamin Allen Folsom III ) wrote:
u walk through
>the field? Not likely. The only looser here is the grasshopper, and
>that through ignorance.
>
>Jesus is so big, so awesome that our minds cannot begin to understand
>all of Him.
>Ben...
Is he bigger than a Buick?
Tag Russtic
KB7ADL) wrote:
>>> > : >Geoff Bjorgan <geof...@sasknet.sk.ca> wrote:
>>> > : >>> I'm wondering if the historical records indicate whether or not
>Jesus was
>>> > : >>> into giving head?
>>> > : >>>
>>> > : >>> Any input is greatly appreciated.
>
>
>Geoff,
> Unless you confess your Sins and accept Jesus as your savior.
>He is going to "FLAME" you for this post.
I'm sure Geoff isn't the person who wrote the post. Aftre countless
editing of headers there comes a point in these threads where the original
author's lost by accident or design and someone like Geoff gets the blame
for something *I* originally asked.
BTW I'm sure hell is a frightfully scary place...if you believe in such
siily nonsense.
Richard Girard
pray for the man who is obviously lost. We must remember that any word
spoken against the son of man can be forgiven. Let's pray for him that
he will come to know Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Then he will
love and bless the one he now curses.
In <30E898...@cris.com> Joseph Carney <jca...@cris.com> writes:
>
>Gandalf the White wrote:
>>
>> Mark Akers (ak...@pop.gate.net) wrote:
>> : On 10 Dec 1995 22:36:59 GMT, Robert K Mertz <bibl...@westol.com>
>> :
>> : >Geoff Bjorgan <geof...@sasknet.sk.ca> wrote:
>> : >>> I'm wondering if the historical records indicate whether or
not Jesus was
>> : >>> into giving head?
>> : >>>
>> : >>> Any input is greatly appreciated.
>> : >>> Thanks
>> : >>Father forgive them, they know not what they do.
>> : >We must learn to love them and to teach them. There are those
who try to
>> : >destroy our ministry but those who need to, one time, pick up the
cross
>> : >that Jesus carried.
>> :
>> : You'd better be thankful that God loved scum even like you...
Jesus
>> : died for you, but, personally, I think it was a bad choice. You'd
also
>> : better be thankful that I'm not God or you'd be dead for that
remark
>> : about the one who saved me. I'd like to have five minutes with
you:
>> : I'd teach you a little respect!
>>
Richard Girard
>No
Cheryl Haun Morris
However, if anyone disagrees and defends traditional Christian morality,
they harrass him to death with threatening e mail and insulting
postings. Some of them are at least honest enogugh to recognize that you
cannot reconcile a homosexual or lesbian lifestyle with the teachigns of
Christ. Others, prevert the Gospel to accomidate their own preversion.
In any case, I have learned that rational discussion with these people
is impossible. The fact is that they have made a god of their immoral
sexuality. It is tragic that the acceptance of immorality is threatening
the moral fabric of our society, but it is true. Every society which has
accepted homosexuality as moral has died from inner rot.
Fr. John W. Morris +
ro...@solution.maths.unsw.edu.au
In article <30E89A...@cris.com>, Joseph Carney <jca...@cris.com> writes:
|> Gandalf the White wrote:
|> >
What's wrong with that is when you christians try to shove your "decent morals"
down everyone elses throat. I have my own personal set of morals and I
would never dream of imposing them on anyone else. Unfortunately there
aren't too many christians like that. Your version of moral decency was
thought up by a bunch of elderly men in a misogynist society years before
even iron was discovered. I've yet to find a reason why such moral values
should be applied to todays world.
Stephen Menicucci
On 8 Jan 1996 ro...@solution.maths.unsw.edu.au wrote:
> What's wrong with that is when you christians try to shove your "decent morals"
> down everyone elses throat. I have my own personal set of morals and I
> would never dream of imposing them on anyone else. Unfortunately there
> aren't too many christians like that. Your version of moral decency was
> thought up by a bunch of elderly men in a misogynist society years before
> even iron was discovered. I've yet to find a reason why such moral values
> should be applied to todays world.
This is interesting. If morals are "personal" -- that is to say, there
is no objective moral standard by which to judge actions, then how can it
be "wrong" for anyone to impose his own moral system. In other words, at
most it could be wrong for you, but perhaps for his "personal set of
morals" it could be perfectly legitimate. Either one of two things:
there IS an objective moral standard, or it is pointless for you to tell
someone he is wrong, because by claiming a person is wrong you yourself
are imposing _your_ moral standard. A dilemma.
rwhi...@ix.netcom.com
>I agree. The gays flood the Internet newsgroups with their propaganda.
>However, if anyone disagrees and defends traditional Christian morality,
>they harrass him to death with threatening e mail and insulting
>postings.
and Christians don't do the very same thing?? I've gotten several
bits of hate-mail from Christians -- not to discuss things
intelligently, but to simply quote scripture in all caps, without
signature but with unfortunate epithets... some of which have even
been posted in the newsgroups. In fairness, I have gotten civil
messages as well and engaged in intelligent discussions. No opinions
were changed as a result, unless it might be the opinion that not
everyone on every side is arbitrary, rude, and obnoxious.
>Some of them are at least honest enogugh to recognize that you
>cannot reconcile a homosexual or lesbian lifestyle with the teachigns of
>Christ.
This is merely your opinion of what the teachings might be. You have
your reasons for believing your position is the correct one, but so do
many others. If you expect to maintain the position that yours is
the right belief, you have to realize that others are equally sure in
theirs. You are not right, just opinionated. Just like everyone
else, including me.
>Others, prevert the Gospel to accomidate their own preversion.
That's the attitude I mean -- "if it doesn't agree with my belief, it
is a perversion." That attitude is the real perversion, in my
opinion.
>In any case, I have learned that rational discussion with these people
>is impossible.
Rational discussion IS possible. "These people"??? You are lumping
a whole lot of wonderful folk (Christian and otherwise) and judging
them all by their sexual orientation... judging a whole class is
called bigotry, no matter how you dress it up or justify it.
Beating them about the head and shoulders with your gilt-edged
leather-bound volume (figuratively or otherwise) is NOT rational. As
long as you insist upon being "right", you are the one being
irrational, since by your very insistence you are alienating others
and not rationally discussing -- just preaching from behind a brick
wall. In order to discuss, you have to listen at least part of the
time, and at least be willing to consider the possibility you "might"
be wrong.
>The fact is that they have made a god of their immoral
>sexuality.
Made a god of it? Being who we are openly and without unnecessary
guilt and shame from others is called "making a god" of it? Standing
up for ourselves to stop to violence caused by people listening to
preachers like you is called "making a god" of it? I call it
self-defense. I call it self-acceptance. I call it having enough
self-esteem to stand before any man or god and say, "This is who I am,
warts and all."
>It is tragic that the acceptance of immorality is threatening
>the moral fabric of our society, but it is true.
What is threatening the moral fabric of our society is not that people
are being who they were born to be, but that other people fail to
recognize and celebrate diversity, but instead label it immoral. What
is truly immoral is that children are being taught from earliest ages
in churches across the country to hate others unlike themselves.
(Even my own children were taught to fear so much as a hug in public
because I'm gay, and if I even touch them or pat them on the shoulder
it automatically means I'm ready to whisk them into to the dark
corners or loan them to my friends for pleasure. My ex-wife's church
taught them these things, without any knowledge of me, my life, my
principles, or my ministry. I know what your kind of teaching does
to children because I've experienced the results.) Parents looking
down their noses at other parts of society, teaching their children by
example (just as you are doing by voicing your unwarranted opinions
against gays) to use violence (in word or deed) against others for no
other reason than being different.
>Every society which has accepted homosexuality as moral has died from inner rot.
Did they die off BECAUSE of homosexuality, or are you using that as a
scapegoating tactic to avoid the fact that NO society will last
forever, including the one in which we now live? A hundred years ago
the argument was that every society that died off they accepted racial
equality or drinking or women wearing pants or some other silly thing.
Cultures come and cultures go and cultures change and cultures grow.
Don't blame it on any single fact of reality that happens to exist in
the culture.
>Fr. John W. Morris +
Ray
******************************************************************
* Rev. Ray Whiting // rwhi...@ix.netcom.com *
* New Thought Metaphysical minister/practitioner *
* Unity not Uniformity; Diversity not Division *
******************************************************************
Benjamin Allen Folsom III
>
>>>> > : >Geoff Bjorgan <geof...@sasknet.sk.ca> wrote:
>>>> > : >>> I'm wondering if the historical records indicate whether
or not
>>Jesus was
>>>> > : >>> into giving head?
>>>> > : >>>
>>>> > : >>> Any input is greatly appreciated.
>>
>>
>> Unless you confess your Sins and accept Jesus as your savior.
>>He is going to "FLAME" you for this post.
>
>I'm sure Geoff isn't the person who wrote the post. Aftre countless
>editing of headers there comes a point in these threads where the
original
>author's lost by accident or design and someone like Geoff gets the
blame
>for something *I* originally asked.
>
>BTW I'm sure hell is a frightfully scary place...if you believe in
such
>siily nonsense.
You will one day. Unless you come to your senses before then.
Ben...
Mark Dallara
>In <rruss-06019...@ppp013-sf1.sirius.com> rr...@sirius.com (Tag
>Russtic) writes:
>>
>>Is He bigger than a Buick?
>Foolish child, the mountains melt at His presence. When He speaks the
>ceders are splintered. Men fall in terror when they realize they are
>about to meet Him (as you will after you age some). He will one day not
>to far away hold the Earth in both hands and shake it, and all will
>come apart. The Earth is as a footstool to Him.
Hmmm, I think you're referring to Thor...
--
*** FIGHT CENSORSHIP *** BOYCOTT COMPUSERVE!!! ***
Mark Dallara | Grad Student | Biomedical Engineer | Florida Gator
Available for hire soon. Real soon. Any day now. No, really.
Resume, C.V., thesis abstract, and Gator stuff at:
http://www.mecca.org/BME/STUDENTS/mdallara.html
Fr. John W. Morris +
obscenities in my postings. Nor have I ever tried to violate the rights
of anyone, including those with whom I do not agree. I do not claim the
right to interfere in anyone's private life. However, I do have a right
to join a public discussion on a moral issue and to express my opinion
on that subject. But it seems, if I express my views I receive all sorts
of instulting E mail and am called all sorts of names in postings.
Tolerance does not mean that you have no personal beliefs. Tolerance
means that one respects the rights of others to disagree. I respect that
right, but expect others to respect my right to expres my belief that
homosexuality and lesbianism is immoral. I did not begin these
discussions. I have only exercised my right to respond to some the
things that have been said.
Jeff Givens
for all of the unsaved people. Telling them that YOU would show them a
little respect, hey buddy the only one to bring them to God and accept
Jesus as their savior is God. Please dont ruin an imaged that you
supposedly represent by saying stuff like that.
ro...@solution.maths.unsw.edu.au
Perhaps I was being a little unclear. I meant morals regarding sexuality
which is what this thread seems to be about. In many christian parts of
the world various aspects of human sexuality have been made illegal and
it is possible to go to jail for practicing them. I am talking about
victimless crimes here, not kiddie porn or equivalent. The classic
example is homosexuality which christians have deemed a crime, despite the
fact that there is no victim, no-one gets hurt etc. So why is it a crime?
The answer to that is christians ramming their own moral codes down everyone
elses throat.
-Rory
Dennis
>car...@aol.com (Caraiva) wrote:
>
>>It's difficult to understand how a person such as yourself can say such a
>>thing about a man who has nothing but love in his heart for you and who
>>sacrificed his life for your salvation. Maybe you should meditate on
>>those thoughts.
>
>
>"IMHO"....
>
>But not everyone believes it that way because it has not been proven.
>
>******************************************************************
>* Rev. Ray Whiting // rwhi...@ix.netcom.com *
>* New Thought Metaphysical minister/practitioner *
>* Unity not Uniformity; Diversity not Division *
>******************************************************************
>
The belief that any person or group of people has the wisdom to prove or
disprove any of God's ways is quite a demonstration of arrogance. And I
don't have to tell you what the bible says about what God thinks of
arrogance. BTW, I think it's interesting that you view the Word as
promoting uniformity and not unity. The deceiver has certainly done his
homework in your situation.
Be careful, my friend, such high self esteem may admirable to some, but
leaves little room for self-improvement.
Dennis
"The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advise"
Benjamin Allen Folsom III
ignorant grasshoppers. They know not the scripture or the power of God.
It isn't Jesus who does these things or any other man in his right
mind, it must be the homosexuals who do those things. They therfore
have their understanding darkened and so believe their actions are
normal, when in fact they are peverted.
Jesus said, "You are a slave to whom you submitt yourself to obey" and
it is clear from the subject matter posted that they are enslaved to
such action.
Now, does anyone know if a homosexual can be saved before stoping such
action?
Ben...
Benjamin Allen Folsom III
writes:
>
>> Perhaps I was being a little unclear. I meant morals regarding
sexuality
>> which is what this thread seems to be about. In many christian
parts of
>> the world various aspects of human sexuality have been made illegal
and
>> it is possible to go to jail for practicing them. I am talking
about
>> victimless crimes here, not kiddie porn or equivalent.
>
In
>many cultures it is perfectly acceptable to have sex with children.
Why
>are you trying to shove your moral code down someone elses throat.
>
>Smitty
There is only one moral code that is worth mentioning and that one
belongs to no man, it is God's! Most civilized people observe it,
however the ignorant peverse may not. There is really no such thing as
a victim less crime when it comes to morals.
As our civilization deteriorates the peverted become a greater portion
of society and they being a loud minority (1-2%) start to raise issues
such as this, ie Rome, Greece, Babylon, etc.
Ben...
Mike Hammond
Followup-To: alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.atheism,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet.bible-thumpers.convert.convert.convert,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.christnet.evangelical,alt.christnet.hypocrisy,alt.christnet.philosophy,alt.chr
istnet.prayer,christnet.bible,christnet.christianlife,christnet.christnews
References: <4aii98$b...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4aivt9$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4asquj$a...@hickory.westol.com> <4b9g4b$5...@netaxs.com> <30E89A...@cris.com>
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution:
Joseph Carney (jca...@cris.com) wrote:
: Gandalf the White wrote:
: >
: > If Heaven is populated with the likes of you, please, let me go to hell!
: > I'd rather be "permitted" to love a person of my own gender, be
: > "permitted" to have my own beliefs, be "permitted" to live without the
: > CRAP your so-called god holds over all his little sheep, and burn in
: > hell! Sounds like a lot less of a nasty place than your sick heaven.
: >
: > -- You have that choice to make. If moral values mean nothing to you,
: if trying to be nice to others means nothing to you, then I hate to admit it,
: you will end up there.
:
: As for heaven being a sick place, if only seems that way because of
: the way you must have been treated in the past. You sound so bitter. Yes, we
: christians try to act ina moral decent way, but what's wrong with that?
I think he is bitter that he is confused (as am I) by the anger and the hate
directed towards him because he chooses not to follow a particular set of
christianity-based morays?
Having been a christian for 25 years, I got the distinct impression that
it was supposed to be a loving religion, yet when exposed to life outside
my own church group, I could not understand the hate spewed out by
so-called christians (Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Pat Buchanan to name
but a few) against those who's beliefs or ways of living did not match
theirs. And christians even attack/spew vitriol at each other!
Getting back to the subject.....
What is so immoral about a man loving another man as a man would love a
woman? (I'm not talking about sex here).
Cardinal Fang
Cheryl Haun Morris, Ph.D.
of these offensive titles come up, is to change the title when you
answer. I agree. It sickens me everytime I see this. Some people have
to put Christ down to their level in the gutter.
Cheryl Haun Morris, Ph.D.
Gregory L. Meadors
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rwhi...@ix.netcom.com
> This subject has no place on christnet.
> For one thing, it is vulgar; this alone should not be tolerated.
Vulgarity is in the mind of the beholder; intolerance should not be
tolerated.
>secondarily, there is not even a hint in the Bible that
>Christ engaged in any kind of sexual behavior. The answer is
>clearly "No."
there is not even a hint in the Bible that Christ (you mean Jesus)
engaged in any kind of sexual behavior. the answer is clearly,
"there's nothing in the Bible indicating Jesus engaged in any kind of
sexual behavior." (An absolute "no" implies you have additional
information not given to everyone else.)
>More importantly, the question itself is offensive.
More importantly, the question itself is a question... the offense
lies in what you make of it, and all the internal implications you
derive from it.
Personally, I think the question is just plain silly... a "waste of
time", if you will, more than likely put forth deliberately to offend
those who go out of their way to be offended by other people's
silliness.
Wyatt Copple
alicia ferris <gaz...@flinet.com> wrote:
>I am new to this area, and when i saw the headline...which
isnt worth
>repeating, i was disgusted. When people post things like
this they
>should automatically be removed..
In this case, it should. One should expect that
christnet would be a religious family-oriented set of news
groups. I would expect christnet.bible to be a group
dedicated to discussions of bible. The original wording of
the subject is not appropriate to a family-oriented group,
and the original posting was far from a discussion of the
scripture. Free Speech does not really apply here. Unless
christnet is sponsored by the government (which would be a
violation of churchand state) ISPs have a right to delete
inappropriate articles. As far as the alt groups go , let it
stay in them, but the people who use this group do not appear
to welcome that kind of filth here; I, for one certainly do
not.
David A. Blaisdell Jr.
read the line that Cheryl Haun Morris reffered to. It reminded me
that this is an open forum for every idiot who wishes to pollute the
space God Fearing Christians would like to think of as sacared(so to
speak). It is my hope that the author of the original lewd message
would find the love and grace of God before he/she meets his/her
demise.
In His Holy Name
David Blaisdell
R Russ
>I am new to this area, and when i saw the headline...which isnt worth
>repeating, i was disgusted. When people post things like this they
>should automatically be removed..
>
>alicia
You mean censored don't you Alicia.
I fyou can't hang here in the electronic wasteland you need to get the fuck out.
Have a Day
Dan Smart
> This is the first time I have read this group, and I cringed when I
> read the line that Cheryl Haun Morris reffered to. It reminded me
> that this is an open forum for every idiot who wishes to pollute the
> space God Fearing Christians would like to think of as sacared(so to
> speak). It is my hope that the author of the original lewd message
> would find the love and grace of God before he/she meets his/her
> demise.
>
> In His Holy Name
>
> David Blaisdell
David,
Don't you realize that even the most liberal publishers in the country
have editorial powers over everything they print? And that the editors
routinely exercise that priviledge to "clean up" letters, articles and
books? I find nothing wrong with a moderator bleeping the offensive words
out of messages, it happens every day (and I wish it would happen here).
If someone wants to spout blasphemy for shock effect, there is a newsgroup
to do it in, alt.blasphemy. I am not the moderator, but I have been
dealing with message bases long enough to understand that you are a guest,
and should abide by the rules laid out, out of respect for everyone else.
Dan
Ken Smith
<gaz...@flinet.com>>>wrote:
>>
>>>I am new to this area, and when i saw the headline...which isnt
worth >>>repeating, i was disgusted. When people post things like this
they >>>should automatically be removed..
>>>
>>>alicia
If you're looking for fellow Christians, you're a lot better off in
the alt.athiesm newsgroup. It seems that they view the 'Net as a vast
mission field, and can't resist trying their hand at proselytization.
I would classify most of the "disgusting" flame threads as mere retal-
iation.
_______________________________________________________________________
Like slimy preachers? Visit the Bob Larson Fan Club Homepage!
URL: http://www.cris.com/~Ranger57/blm.htm
Chris Tatman
>In article <4dgcjs$k...@news.flinet.com>, alicia ferris <gaz...@flinet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I am new to this area, and when i saw the headline...which isnt worth
>>repeating, i was disgusted. When people post things like this they
>>should automatically be removed..
>>
>>alicia
>
>
>
>Have a Day
>
>
Don't worry Alicia, you are more welcome here than people like that.
There is no wasteland for a believer! Some people can reason and get
their point across without being obscene and abusive!
--
From Bakersfield California!
Yvon Decelles
Hammond) writes:
:>
:>What is so immoral about a man loving another man as a man would love a
Nothing. Didn't David talk about the love he had for Jonathan. Saying that it
was better than the love of a woman... When sex is involved though the bible
is rather clear about homosexuality
//--------------------------------------------------------------
#include standard disclaimer
The opinion above are my own and should not be associate with
any of my employers whomever they may be.
If you don't like my spelling simply pay me an english course, this
isn't my langage after all!
Lano and Tina Cruz
Russ) writes:
>
>In article <30F1BA...@cannet.cannet.com>, Cheryl Haun Morris
><jrj...@cannet.cannet.com> wrote:
>
>>I agree. The gays flood the Internet newsgroups with their
propaganda.
>>However, if anyone disagrees and defends traditional Christian
morality,
>>they harrass him to death with threatening e mail and insulting
>
>-----------<message edited for sanity's sake>-------------
>
>>I have learned that rational discussion with these people
>>is impossible.
>
"these"
>people-as if they were an entirely new species separate from the rest
of
>humanity-and you wonder why no one bothers to listen to what you have
to
>say. As long as you continue to villify and despise "those" in the
name of
>a loving god what he fuck do you expect-that they'll come beating on
your
>door to hear more of your Good News Gospel.
>
>S'cuse me while I go puke!
Excuse me, my friend. Let me give you a tissue to clean yourself up.
I am a Christian who loves the Lord with all my heart and soul.
I take what you say to heart and you are right, though I don't see why
you need to cuss.
Christians, at least some or most, do like to slander and bash what
they do not believe in. And what they believe that God would not
approve.
I believe that if we are to do the Lord's work on this fantastic, yet
abbusive media, we are to go like Him.
If Jesus was on the internet would he fight and argue. No! He would
love one another and then speak softly to them who He judges as wrong.
Remember all have sinned...but all have a soul that must be saved.
Don't hate the sinners, for we were and still are sinners ourselves,
but instead we must hate the sin.
We must teach those who hold sin so close to their hearts with love and
understanding.
If you corner an animal won't he attack and attack viciously.
But if you hold out some food won't he come out of his cave and eat at
the "fruit"?
Just something to think about,
Lano Cruz
+ In His Service +
VirgilHoff
so many felt they had to answer.
Also we should report this to the moderator and request that inquiries of
this nature not be allowed on this news net.
D.Hoff
Fr. John W. Morris +
>
> In article <4dgcjs$k...@news.flinet.com>,
> alicia ferris <gaz...@flinet.com> wrote:
> >I am new to this area, and when i saw the headline...which
> isnt worth
> >repeating, i was disgusted. When people post things like
> this they
> >should automatically be removed..
>
> christnet would be a religious family-oriented set of news
> groups. I would expect christnet.bible to be a group
> dedicated to discussions of bible. The original wording of
> the subject is not appropriate to a family-oriented group,
> and the original posting was far from a discussion of the
> scripture. Free Speech does not really apply here. Unless
> christnet is sponsored by the government (which would be a
> violation of churchand state) ISPs have a right to delete
> inappropriate articles. As far as the alt groups go , let it
> stay in them, but the people who use this group do not appear
> to welcome that kind of filth here; I, for one certainly do
Arthur R. Owen
John R Baggett
John Baggett jba...@scott.net
3704 Rockhill Road (Preferred E-Mail Address)
Birmingham AL 35223-1562
(205)967-4641 (voice) "What A Long Strange Trip It's Been"
John R Baggett
(me)
>Someone has said, "Profanity is the effort of a feeble mind trying to
>express itself forcably" To profane someone is to seek to make someone
>seem to be something other and less than they really are. With this
>question you have sought to do just that with Jesus. If he truly is the
>Son of God and is a holy and morally upright person, then you have sought
>to make him seem other than he really is and have tried to profane him.
>This shows that you truly do have a feeble mind and are trying to
>forcably express yourself for your own gratification. How pitiful.
Someone has said, "Followups are the effort of a feeble-minded Christian
trying to express himself wimpily". To profane Christ is to seek to make
him what he is -- less than holy. With this question, we have sought to
do just this with Jesus. Since he truly isn't the "Son of God" and isn't
a holy and morally upright person, I've sought to make him seem as such
and have succeeded in profaning him. This shows that I truly do have a
mind of my own and am trying to forcably express myself in the hope that
someone else will "see the light" and abandon this joke of a religion.
How admirable.
Dennis
to be funny. However there may be some real historical evidence to his
claims. Below is an excerpt in its entirety from "The Dead Sea
Scrolls And The Christian Myth" by John M Allegro.
Considering the nature of the claims I will also include the brief
biography about Mr. Allegro from his book's cover jacket.
JOHN M. ALLEGRO
has edited some of the most important of the Essene documents,
including the biblical commentaries. In 1961 King Hussein appointed
him honorary advisor to the Jordanian government on the Dead Sea
Scrolls found in their territory from 1947 onward. Until 1970 Mr.
Allegro was lecturer in Near Eastern and Old Testament studies at
the University of Manchester. He now devotes his time completely to
writing
in the fields of History, Anthropology, and religion.
APPENDIX 2
Recently, a "secret gospel" has come to light which bears
interestingly on the anointing Ritual discussed in Chapter 8. It
was discovered by Professor Morton Smith when reading some
old manuscripts in the ancient monastery of Mar Saba in the
Judaean Wilderness. In his book The Secret Gospel (1974), he
records how he recognized the transcript of a hitherto unknown
letter from the second-century Church Father Clement of
Alexandria. The purpose of the letter was to attack the teachings
of one of the most important gnostic groups, the Carpocratians,
who flourished at least as early as the second century. In the
course of his writing, Clement reveals the contents of what
appears to have been an original sequence concerning the young
rich man mentioned in Mark's Gospel, and which must have
been purged from the version that was allowed to circulate
among the faithful. Further references also make it seem that
Jesus was understood to have indulged in possibly HOMOSEXUAL
practices concerned with a particular form of baptism. These
missing elements in the usual form of Mark, although well
known apparently in the Church's inner circles, were part of
secret traditions not thought suitable for general reading- It
seems that Clement's unknown correspondent had been some-
what taken aback to be confronted by "heretics" who knew of a
version of Mark which appeared to be genuine, but of which he
knew nothing. Clement acknowledges its authenticity and says
that it was, indeed, part of an enlarged version of the Second
Gospel, written by Mark, who had "left it to the church in
Alexandria where it is even now most carefully guarded, being
read only to those who are being initiated into the great mys-
teries." It would seem that some official of the church there had
"leaked" its contents to Carpocrates. Nevertheless, Clement
warns his reader "one must never give way, nor . . . should one
concede that the secret gospel is by Mark, but should deny it on
oath. For," the bishop admits frankly, "not everything that is
true needs necessarily to be divulged to all men . . ."
Putting the pieces together, Professor Smith has shown that
the story of the raising of Lazarus, found only in the Fourth
Gospel, really related to the rich young man whom Jesus had
sent away disquieted (Mark 10:17-23). It was he whom the Master
raised from the dead:
"And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden
where the tomb was. And straightway, a great cry was heard
from the tomb. And going near, Jesus rolled away the stone from
the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the
youth was, he stretched forth his hand. But the youth, looking
upon him, loved him, and began to beseech him that he might
continue with him. And going out of the tomb, they came into
the youth's house, for he was rich. And after six days, Jesus told
him what to do. In the evening, the youth came to him, wearing
a linen robe over his naked body. And he remained with him
that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of
God....
Clement denies that the phrase "naked man to naked man"
was in the original secret gospel, as the Carpocratians had
apparently affirmed to the anxious inquirer.
Bearing in mind that only Mark has that curious story about
"a young man wearing a linen cloth over his naked body" in the
Garden of the Agony (14:5l-52), Smith connects the incident with
the earlier nocturnal initiation story of the secret gospel and
gives good reason to believe that at least one element of the
Church preserved a tradition that the Master "baptized" initiates
himself, always at night, and with some kind of erotic ritual.
That being so, we may connect the semen-anointing of the
gnostics' "Father-son/youth" ceremony with this Initiatory
"baptism," and suspect that the "water" used was, in fact, the
seminal fluid procured during the Elect's sexual activities. As far
as the Marcan story of the raising of the dead is concerned, it
was used merely to illustrate in mythical terms, possibly for
recitation during the ceremony, the life-giving nature of the
anointing, or "baptism," liking it to the raising of one spiritually
dead into everlasting life.
Libertarius
>
I'm sure the knuckle head who posted this originally was trying
>to be funny.
That sort of language isn't "funny". Does it make "knucklehead"
feel good to injure the sensitivities of believers? Free speech is a
right, but vulgarity is stupid (or is the case that stupidity is
vulgar?)
Libertarius.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But what is Freedom?
Rightly understood,
A universal license to be good.
Coleridge: "Liberty"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chip
JOE STACHELSKI
>
>Dennis wrote:
>> I see you have found an interesting piece of fiction- I say this
only
>after reading the rest of the New Testament and seeing what Paul wrote
>about in Romans 1:27. Also Jewish law itself in Deuteronomy prohibits
>homosexuality and thus as Jesus was a "law" abiding Jew, I find it
>rather dificult to think this theory is anything other than another
dead
>end.
Dennis: Your response is well meaning. However, the more we respond
to these individuals the stronger they become. Pray for him and pay no
attention to them. They will die off from boredom. it's the attention
they want.
Fr. John W. Morris +
>
> Usenet is an international public meeting place for open discussion.
> When you are not interested in this public discussion and do not pay
> attention to others, this is not the place for you.
> Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
There are standards of decency even in international public meetings. Nothing
can justify obscenities that are designed to offend anyone including
Christians. The First Amendment to the Constitution was never designed to
protect obscenities.
Edwin
> > Usenet is an international public meeting place for open discussion.
> > When you are not interested in this public discussion and do not pay
> > attention to others, this is not the place for you.
> Fr. John W. Morris responded:
> There are standards of decency even in international public meetings. Nothing
> can justify obscenities that are designed to offend anyone including
> Christians. The First Amendment to the Constitution was never designed to
> protect obscenities.
Dear Fr. John,
What has an amendment of a national constitution to do with this
discussion? Let me repeat: Usenet is an 'international' forum.
Please, define "obscenities" without making reference to national morals.
According to you, nothing can justify obscenities that are designed
to offend anyone. If so, why do many christians like you offend me
with the obscenity of very strict codes of sexual conduct.
In my religion, you only grow an active sex life is
My Goddess, the Kangjeng Ratu Kidul, tells me an active
Edwin.
Dodgy
<aro...@cris.com> wrote:
>Profanity is a crutch used only by conversational cripples.
Yep. Just like religion is the crutch of psychological cripples
Dodgy
Conrad Sabatier
"Fr. John W. Morris +" <jrj...@cannet.com> wrote:
>There are standards of decency even in international public meetings. Nothing
>can justify obscenities that are designed to offend anyone including
>Christians. The First Amendment to the Constitution was never designed to
>protect obscenities.
>Fr. John W. Morris +
Sorry, Father, but if you want to protect the right of, oh, let's say, Jerry
Falwell, to state that AIDS is God's divine punishment for sinners, then
you'll have to put up with the occasional "dirty" word as well.
Frankly, I believe one should seriously consider which is the more obscene.
--
Conrad Sabatier -- con...@neosoft.com
Ben
offer the food (kindness) without fear of harm to yourself. However what
we often have to deal with is a peverted man, who has far fewer morals
than an animal!
You or I may be the tool that God uses to reach them, but most have been
pushed so far down in the hole they crawled into only God can get them
out. If a real mature Christian was on the seen initially they might
stand a chance of reaching them, but usually it is not the Father who
greets the prodigal son; it is the brother!!
Ben...
Erlend Larsen
Well, stop complaining. Nobody wants you about, whining about everything.
This is the problem with religion. People try to control other people.
You have no right to decide who is right and who is wrong!
E. Larsen
Ken Smith
writes:
>Fr. John W. Morris + wrote:
>>
>> Wyatt Copple wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <4dgcjs$k...@news.flinet.com>,
>> > alicia ferris <gaz...@flinet.com> wrote:
>> > >I am new to this area, and when i saw the headline...which
>> > isnt worth>> > >repeating, i was disgusted. When people post
things like>> > this they>> > >should automatically be removed..
>> >
>> > In this case, it should. One should expect that
>> > christnet would be a religious family-oriented set of news
>> > groups. I would expect christnet.bible to be a group
>> > dedicated to discussions of bible. The original wording of
>> > the subject is not appropriate to a family-oriented group,
>> > and the original posting was far from a discussion of the
>> > scripture. Free Speech does not really apply here. Unless
>> > christnet is sponsored by the government (which would be a
>> > violation of churchand state) ISPs have a right to delete
>> > inappropriate articles. As far as the alt groups go , let it
>> > stay in them, but the people who use this group do not appear
>> > to welcome that kind of filth here; I, for one certainly do
>> > not.I agree completely. People who write such things are sick.
>> Fr. John W. Morris +
By the same token, You wouldn't expect to see proselytization efforts
in alt.atheism. But if you want to find a Christian, it seems that the
best place to start looking is the atheism board. Father Morris, if it
is "inappropriate" for atheists to be posting retaliatory flames on the
christnet boards, is it not equally appropriate for Christians to leave
the atheist boards alone?
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for that sums up
the Law and the Prophets." Seems I read that in a book somewhere....
Norma F. Sepulveda
everything.
>This is the problem with religion. People try to control other people.
>You have no right to decide who is right and who is wrong!
>
>E. Larsen
To: E. Larsen,
It's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong. It's a matter of
"respect". I (being a Christian), would not go into your house, or
gathering of friends, and start telling you that you had to let me say
anything that I wanted, even if it disrespected your Father and your
family. That is exactly what people are doing in the name of "free
speech" when they come to the christian news groups and start using
profanity and other disrespectful words. God is "our" Father, and we
christians are brothers and sisters. I would not disrespect your
family, please don't disrespect mine. Just because you see others
doing it (including some ignorant so-called christians on the atheism
news groups), don't lower yourself to that level. Intelligent people,
christian or not, don't need to use profanity to get their message
across. We do care about you and others that don't believe the same as
we do, but we can not allow anyone to profane the wonderful name of
someone that sacrificed so much for us, and for "you". Jesus.
I love you and so does Jesus
In Christ
Kelly
jesus h. christ
i love how christians speak of thier beloved savior as if they know
him like a neighbor or relative.no matter your belief, there is only
faith to substantiate that christ ever did,in fact, exist.it would be
nice to see you respond to the peice in the previous article, but
since that damages your tender sensibilities, i dont suppose that you
would........
and jesus spoke:whosoever eats of my flesh and drinks my blood
has eternal life...john 6:54....
jesus lives---vampires never die...
M.Grubor
These christians are one of the most dangerous religious cults in the
world, because they believe in killing and getting forgiven by some
"God" somewhere. USA is *not* a Christian Country and Christions must
be looked upon as a radical group that is bent of violence for the
spread of their religion. All Christions must be either sick or
stupid, but they are a dangerpous crowd and must be watched and
identified. GOD is the "Good Old Dollar," and that is the only
GOD There will ever be . . . welcome to reality.
In <4eb6si$c...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> se...@ix.netcom.com (Norma F.
M.Grubor
McDonald ) writes:
>
>In <rruss-25019...@ppp053-sf1.sirius.com> rr...@sirius.com
>religion if anything makes life HARDER. If I was looking for a crutch
>I'd have been dead years ago... but I'm not.
>
>BTW: Christnet...and others. Stop the dang cross posting!!! Post in
the
>groups it applies to... It's simple! The two parties here will NEVER
>agree on something like this... it's just NOT going to happen, so
>please... don't waste your time, or mine.
>
>
Michael McDonald
Dodgy
<erlend...@ban.aid.no> wrote:
>Fr. John W. Morris + wrote:
ainly do
>> > not.I agree completely. People who write such things are sick.
>> Fr. John W. Morris +
>
>Well, stop complaining. Nobody wants you about, whining about everything.
>This is the problem with religion. People try to control other people.
>You have no right to decide who is right and who is wrong!
>
>E. Larsen
True enough. The good Friar finds it acceptable to initiate the ignorant
into the Lying Cult of Jesus but screeches like a stuck pig when others
take pot shots at the stupidity that is chrast addicition. What a toad.
M.Grubor
>>>
>>> >
>>> > In article <4dgcjs$k...@news.flinet.com>,
>>> > alicia ferris <gaz...@flinet.com> wrote:
>>> > >I am new to this area, and when i saw the headline...which
>>> > isnt worth>> > >repeating, i was disgusted. When people post
>things like>> > this they>> > >should automatically be removed..
>>> >
>>> > In this case, it should. One should expect that
>>> > christnet would be a religious family-oriented set of news
>>> > groups. I would expect christnet.bible to be a group
>>> > dedicated to discussions of bible. The original wording of
>>> > the subject is not appropriate to a family-oriented group,
>>> > and the original posting was far from a discussion of the
>>> > scripture. Free Speech does not really apply here. Unless
>>> > christnet is sponsored by the government (which would be a
>>> > violation of churchand state) ISPs have a right to delete
>>> > inappropriate articles. As far as the alt groups go , let it
>>> > stay in them, but the people who use this group do not appear
>>> > not.I agree completely. People who write such things are sick.
>>> Fr. John W. Morris +
>
efforts
>in alt.atheism. But if you want to find a Christian, it seems that
the
>best place to start looking is the atheism board. Father Morris, if
it
>is "inappropriate" for atheists to be posting retaliatory flames on
the
>christnet boards, is it not equally appropriate for Christians to
leave
>the atheist boards alone?
> "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for that sums up
That ^ was first said by Confucius in 530 B.C.E.
>the Law and the Prophets." Seems I read that in a book somewhere....
>
Yes, the Christians plagarized it from Confucius and put it
into the Christian Bible. Jesus Christ studied Confucius in
his youth, before he went tripping on those morning glory seeds
for 14 years.
-zando
Ken Smith
writes:
The concept was hardly unknown to the Jew of that day -- Rabbi Hillel
is reputed to have expressed it, in response to a student who asked him
to explain the Torah while standing on one leg.
BTW, for future reference, which analect was that?
_______________________________________________________________________
Like slimy preachers? Visit the Bob Larson Fan Club Homepage!
URL: http://www.cris.com/~Ranger57/blm.htm
patrickc
>In <3105473d...@news.tiac.net> ama...@tiac.net (Dennis) writes:
>>
> That sort of language isn't "funny". Does it make "knucklehead"
>feel good to injure the sensitivities of believers? Free speech is a
>right, but vulgarity is stupid (or is the case that stupidity is
>vulgar?)
And since when have the "believers" ever considered the sensitivities
of the non-believer peoples.
> Libertarius.
PatrickC
PatrickC...Internet Address..patrickc@groupz.net
Deny knowledge, deny life. Eliminate censorship.
J. C...protect us all from your bigot followers.
#Ben
Sodomites who practice such acts will create documents to support their
rediculous claims.
Choose you this day who you will believe, whom you will follow.
If not Jesus work out your own salvation with feer & trembling.
Ben...
Stephen Rathkopf
Fricke" <fri...@wpi.edu> writes:
>
>
>
>
>> In article <4dgcjs$k...@news.flinet.com>, gaz...@flinet.com says...
>> >
>> >I am new to this area, and when i saw the headline...which isnt
worth
>> >repeating, i was disgusted. When people post things like this they
>> >should automatically be removed..
>> >
>> >alicia
>
>Why should it be automatically removed? Because it offends YOU?
Reread
>the First Amendment.
>
>I know it's offensive. Hell, I'm a little offended by it and I'm not
even
>Christian. People do have a right to post these things. It gets (or
>should get) people thinking about Jesus and spirituality. Maybe Jesus
>WAS gay (although I tend to doubt it, I have my reasons that I don't
>intend to state here.) I'll admit that the original author probably
>could've put it in a nicer way, but the shock value did get quite a
>response.
>
>Will the original author go to Hell? I doubt it. He tried to get a
>conversation started, even if he did go about it in a strange way. I
>honor him (or her) for questioning faith and trying to get others to
do
>so than the great multitudes who are fed faith and never bother to
>question it or even really understand it. If you question it and
truely
>believe, than that is the best thing that can happen. I am just
>disturbed by people (not only Christians, but they are the most
prevalent
>here in the US) who quote the Bible when they really don't know what
they
>are talking about.
>
>-Frick
***********************************************************************
Frick-
Sorry to hear you have not yet decided to follow Jesus.
Re: your post: Jesus is not interested in "If it works, it's good", He
is interested in "If it is not HOLY, it is to be avoided"
Please forgive our zealousness.
Steve
One for whom Jesus died
Mark/Julie Luoma
Fricke" <fri...@wpi.edu> writes:
>
>
>
>I know it's offensive. Hell, I'm a little offended by it and I'm not
even
>Christian.
I might regret asking this, but with so many other newsgroups out there
why do you hang out at this one if you're not a Christian?
David Ancell
fri...@wpi.edu says...
>
>
>
>
>> In article <4dgcjs$k...@news.flinet.com>, gaz...@flinet.com says...
>> >
>> >I am new to this area, and when i saw the headline...which isnt
worth
>> >repeating, i was disgusted. When people post things like this they
>> >should automatically be removed..
>> >
>> >alicia
>
>Why should it be automatically removed? Because it offends YOU?
Reread
>the First Amendment.
>
even
>should get) people thinking about Jesus and spirituality. Maybe Jesus
>WAS gay (although I tend to doubt it, I have my reasons that I don't
>intend to state here.) I'll admit that the original author probably
>could've put it in a nicer way, but the shock value did get quite a
>response.
>
>Will the original author go to Hell? I doubt it. He tried to get a
>conversation started, even if he did go about it in a strange way. I
>honor him (or her) for questioning faith and trying to get others to do
>so than the great multitudes who are fed faith and never bother to
>question it or even really understand it. If you question it and
truely
>believe, than that is the best thing that can happen. I am just
>disturbed by people (not only Christians, but they are the most
prevalent
>here in the US) who quote the Bible when they really don't know what
they
>are talking about.
>
>-Frick
Why do you assume that believers never question or doubt their
faith? As a Christian, I very often question things. I pray, think,
and ask questions all the time. That's how I grow in faith and
knowledge. When I am seeking God with a sincere heart, God helps me to
understand. Those who are afraid to question run the risk of losing
their faith in times of trial.
David Ancell
Eliyehowah
The number of days that this has gone thru prompts me to scoff at your lying claim that
this is a 1st Amendment right. The 1st amendment was for white men only; when it said
ALL MEN it meant that and not women; and it excluded blacks because they declared them
as primative not human.
Further, try these words this often in your next courtroom, or go to McDonald's and
when they call the police, stamp your feet, cry your rights, and see if they let go.
SEE IF YOU CAN SUE when someone knocks your teeth out for mere vulgarity.
It doesn't matter whether its JESUS or anyone else; you start asking this question
about anyone and you won't speak freely too long with a broken jaw!
Stephen Rathkopf
writes:
And whose follower are you, and the original poster, with all this
intentional and provocative rudeness?
Mahesh Ramachandra
back in those days ...
Joel Mann
hate to tell you but Jesus was not convicted of a crime but was crucified
for not being politically correct in His thinking! Pilot even stated "I
find no guile in this man" thus stating that Jesus had not committed a
crime. So much for your theory.'
Joel
Christ was crucified for me!
Joel Mann
that he does so because he has never studied Christianity. I challenge
you to study that thing you attack. As would any military leader prior
to making the attack. Christianity is about honesty and openness however
it is not about to lay down and be run over either. The acceptance of
criticism has been the bulwark of Christianity for centuries. However
the attacks that I have seen are not based in fact but are based in
fabrication and without documentation.
Joel Mann
>In article <4dugi2$7...@spectator.cris.com>, "Arthur R. Owen"
><aro...@cris.com> wrote:
>
>>Profanity is a crutch used only by conversational cripples.
>
>Yep. Just like religion is the crutch of psychological cripples
Wasn't that quote from some philosopher whose ideas were proven erroneous
- OH yes Karl Marx said that.
Vince Conaway
Whoa! Talk of legality and then bring up "justifiable" violence. Sorry, but
I personally believe that just because someone's self-image and faith are so
weak that they feel they must react with violence when their faith is
challenged/insulted is no reason to go around hitting people! Nice, Christian
attitude. Turn the other cheek, remember? I'd like to thank all of you
Christians out there who make it so EASY to point out the discrepancies
between your stated beliefs and your actions.
Love All and Blessed Be,
Vince
Vince Conaway
But without Jesus there is no need for the fear! That fear is the controlling
mechanism used by religious leaders. Fear is a standard cult device.
>Ben...
Love All,
Vince/Sienn
Fr. John or Cheryl Morris
>
>
> By the same token, You wouldn't expect to see proselytization efforts
> in alt.atheism. But if you want to find a Christian, it seems that the
> best place to start looking is the atheism board. Father Morris, if it
> is "inappropriate" for atheists to be posting retaliatory flames on the
> christnet boards, is it not equally appropriate for Christians to leave
> the atheist boards alone?
Fr. John W. Morris responds:
Actually I agree with you. I do not read athiest newsgroups. If something
that I wrote is posted on them, it is because I am responding to something
that has been written and posted on a Christian newsgroup in response to
something that I wrote on a Christian newsgroup. I never post independent
messages on newsgroups devoted to other religions.
Fr. John +
Brett E. Fricke
On 30 Jan 1996, Joel Mann wrote:
> Christianity is about honesty and openness however it is not about to
> lay down and be run over either. The acceptance of criticism has been
> the bulwark of Christianity for centuries.
BULL SHIT!!! Your "Always honest and open religion" has been persecuting
my people (the Jews) for two millenia. For 1500 years the clergy
completely controlled education so that no opposing thought could enter
their followers' minds, and no one would ever question Jesus' message.
And they've accepted criticism so well that anyone who spoke ill of the
church has been systematically excommunicated. Even today Christians
accept criticism so well that I'm going to be flooded with flames just
like I always am every time I question Jesus even a little on these
newsgroups.
Joel, I have no idea where you got your information from, but the above
quote is about the dumbest thing that I think I've ever heard. If you
truely believe that than you truely are a moron.
-Frick
#Ben
knowing the truth, and indeed it is here, but like a rose garden, it also
has some weeds in it.
Knowing the Bible or going to Church does not make one a christian, just
like knowing about cars does not make one a mechanic. Only knowingf the
author of the Bible is counted.
You think the person who posts obsenities here will not go to Hell,
unless someone has apointed you judge, know that anyone without Jesus
will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, posting obsenities or not!
Christians (the real ones) are hardly in a majority at 1 to 2% of the
population. Now religious people who believe there is a God may be.
Ben...
Doug & Rose Miller
+joes...@ix.netcom.com(JOE STACHELSKI ) wrote:
+
+>In <31058F...@trip.net> "Robert C. David" <bda...@trip.net> writes:
+
+>>
+>>Dennis wrote:
+>>> I see you have found an interesting piece of fiction- I say this
+>only
+>>after reading the rest of the New Testament and seeing what Paul wrote
+
+>>about in Romans 1:27. Also Jewish law itself in Deuteronomy prohibits
+>>homosexuality and thus as Jesus was a "law" abiding Jew, I find it
+>>rather dificult to think this theory is anything other than another
+>dead
+>>end.
+
+>Dennis: Your response is well meaning. However, the more we respond
+>to these individuals the stronger they become. Pray for him and pay no
+>attention to them. They will die off from boredom. it's the attention
+>they want.
+
+i love how christians speak of thier beloved savior as if they know
+him like a neighbor or relative.no matter your belief, there is only
+faith to substantiate that christ ever did,in fact, exist.it would be
+nice to see you respond to the peice in the previous article, but
+since that damages your tender sensibilities, i dont suppose that you
+would........
+and jesus spoke:whosoever eats of my flesh and drinks my blood
+has eternal life...john 6:54....
+ jesus lives---vampires never die...
+
I suppose you consider the Roman records of His trial and crucifixion to be "only faith" ??
Mindphaser
Ben,
I believe you have one fatal flaw in your post here. How do you know
that someone without Jesus will or will not go to hell? Isn't that
making you a judge (a position no mortal has a right to)?
Is that saying that a Muslim is lesser than a christian (which
christianity is a MINORITY religion in the world)?
Here's a concept: I'm a Buddhist, I do not believe in a devil, satan,
or hell. If I screw-up, I come back and do it all over again. Is my
belief lesser than yours (or more)?
I was taught that everyone's beliefs are BOTH the right and the wrong
way depending on an individual's perception. But the true belief is
the belief that one holds to THEMSELF. When one's belief is forced
upon others with defferent beliefs, it weakens the forcer.
Think about it, I await your reply...
Mindphaser
#Ben
Father but by Me".
I do not judge the matter of one's heart as I am commanded to not do, but
I do judge actions and words people speak or perform against the truth I
have been given in Christ "as Paul commanded we do"!
There is only one way to God, that is through Jesus Christ, because only
He was begotten of God and lived a perfect life. Only He rose from the
dead. Only He could be my propitiation! All the other gods are false and
dead.
I believe the road to Hell will be paved by those who profess to live a
good life, but rebel at the command of Jesus to come to Him!
The wisdom of the wise, is foolishness to God.
Ben...
Marc Swikull
writes:
I think you are forgetting History. Just because you don't THINK there isn't a
devil, and that there isn't a Hell doesn't make reality not count. Pluse, your
philosophy about perception is quite deceiving. Gravity works the same whether
you believe it is at work or is not at work. Therefore, if someone thinks
gravity is not a law, well... the man or woman is in the dark. It is
impossible for something absolute to be both wrong and right.
This is not merely about belief. It is the truth. Read the bible. There
you'll find the truth.
#Ben
Ben...
Stephen Rathkopf
Fricke" <fri...@wpi.edu> writes:
>
>
>
>On 30 Jan 1996, Joel Mann wrote:
>
>> Christianity is about honesty and openness however it is not about
to
been
>
>BULL SHIT!!! Your "Always honest and open religion" has been
persecuting
>my people (the Jews) for two millenia. For 1500 years the clergy
>completely controlled education so that no opposing thought could
enter
>their followers' minds, and no one would ever question Jesus' message.
>And they've accepted criticism so well that anyone who spoke ill of
the
>church has been systematically excommunicated. Even today Christians
>accept criticism so well that I'm going to be flooded with flames just
>like I always am every time I question Jesus even a little on these
>newsgroups.
>
>Joel, I have no idea where you got your information from, but the
above
>quote is about the dumbest thing that I think I've ever heard. If you
>truely believe that than you truely are a moron.
>
>-Frick
**********************************************************************
Brett,
As one born a jew in an Orthodox community in New York City, I
understand your anger. However vulgarity wins no one to your point of
view, it only alienates.
As one who *whole heartedly* accepts Jesus as the Messiah promised by
the Almighty, I must point out to you the duplicity and organized
deception of the Rabbinate.
As one little example, who ( I mean did God ) ever authorized the
change from blood sacrifice to the doing of good deeds to cleanse from
the effects and penalty of sin (chet - in Hebrew)?????
Before you go attacking another, please make sure your ducks are in
order, and your own house clean!
Steve
for whom Jesus died
Mindphaser
>Dear Mindphaser,
>I do not know if Ben will reply, but I must.
>No, you, nor a Muslim are not lesser than a christian. Bhuddism and
>Islam *are* less than Christianity, because they are not true ways to
>Salvation nd eternal life.
>That can only be obtained through the Lord Jesus Christ. That sounds
>arrogant and exclusivist to the unrepentant. We hope that arrogance
>provokes you to truly, and open-minbdedly investivate the claims of
>Jesus. The one He made, not the ones men say that He made.
>We love and care for you and hope you come to see and accept the Truth!
>Steve
>for whom Jesus died
we got a problem here bud...
Why are non-christian beliefs 'lesser' than christianity? Because
they are polytheistic? Like christianity?
Ever read the Koran? It is a interesting holy book.
Most of the christians are on a conversion-trip, mostly because they
are insecure about their own faiths, whereas a Musilim is secure in
their belief.
The Koran INCLUDES the complete workd of the bible, where Jesus was a
PROPHET, not a 'lord' or son-of god. In the Musilim faith, by saying
there is a 'holy trinity' (father, son, holy ghost) is making an
ultimate insult against Allah. Because Allah (God) is all powerful
and one entity. Since God can create from nothing, it is an insult to
say that he must come down to earth in a human guise.
Mohammed and Jesus were the 'mouthpiece' of God, not an embodiment of
God.
Buddha is not a deity, he was a mortal to became like God (to achieve
what only a perfect being). It is based on self-determination.
Answer this: Why must a christian do out and say 'follow Jesus or
die'? remember the Holy wars? Why must Christians go out and convert
and kill those who are not as them? Are christians that insecure
about their faith (or shall I say DEEPLY question their beliefs)? All
this to achieve to be only a perfect being?
Read the Dead Sea Scrolls, especially the second gospel of Philip
(which IS recognised as historical documents, VERY ACCUTATE to
history). You might learn something...
Eritis Sicut Deus, Scientes Bonnum Et Malum!!!
from the Latin (You are like God, knowing between Good and Evil)
Mindphaser
#Ben
Stephen Rathkopf
(Mindphaser) writes:
>
>
>>Dear Mindphaser,
>
>>I do not know if Ben will reply, but I must.
>
>>No, you, nor a Muslim are not lesser than a christian. Bhuddism and
>>Islam *are* less than Christianity, because they are not true ways to
>>Salvation nd eternal life.
>
>>That can only be obtained through the Lord Jesus Christ. That sounds
>>arrogant and exclusivist to the unrepentant. We hope that arrogance
>>provokes you to truly, and open-minbdedly investivate the claims of
>>Jesus. The one He made, not the ones men say that He made.
>
>>We love and care for you and hope you come to see and accept the
Truth!
>
>>Steve
>>for whom Jesus died
>
>we got a problem here bud...
Since you sent me email *and* posted to the newsgroup, I will make my
response known to the newsgroup at large....
>
>Why are non-christian beliefs 'lesser' than christianity?
Because Christianity is true and the others are not.
Because
>they are polytheistic?
Sometimes!
Like christianity?
No!
>
>Ever read the Koran? It is a interesting holy book....Yes, I have!
>
>Most of the christians are on a conversion-trip,
Yes, we are - we are commanded to be so occupied!
>mostly because they
>are insecure about their own faiths,
Wrong! Being commanded to preach salvation throught the Lord Jesus,
does not make me insecure. In fact, if I were insecure in my beliefs,
I would be acting idiotically trying to defend it against
unknowledgeable attacks!
whereas a Musilim is secure in
>their belief.
Security of belief and/or sincerity of belief do not make for Truth, in
any way at any time.
>
>The Koran INCLUDES the complete workd of the bible, where Jesus was a
>PROPHET, not a 'lord' or son-of god.
Then, obviously, as I found out by reading it, the Q'oran does not
comtain the complete Bible!
In the Musilim faith, by saying
>there is a 'holy trinity' (father, son, holy ghost) is making an
>ultimate insult against Allah. Because Allah (God) is all powerful
>and one entity. Since God can create from nothing, it is an insult to
>say that he must
Who said He must? Who can dictate to the Almighty? And, if He is
Almighty, why can He not choose to do so, if He wants to? Does He
answer to you?
>come down to earth in a human guise.
or any other guise He wants!
>
>Mohammed and Jesus were the 'mouthpiece' of God, not an embodiment of
>God.
Possibly true of Mohammed, definitely not true of Jesus - He was. and
IS, the embodiment of God!
>
>Buddha is not a deity,
Right!
>he was a mortal to became like God (to achieve
>what only a perfect being). It is based on self-determination.
Here again, you show your 'bent' for salvation by works. Do you not
see that any 'work' devised by man will be one that *someone*,
somewhere cannot perform. No salvation is not of works, of any kind!!
>
>Answer this: Why must a christian do out and say 'follow Jesus or
>die'?
Because we are so commanded by a God who loves you so much He does not
want you to perish!
member the Holy wars?
Yes!
y must Christians go out and convert
>and kill those who are not as them?
We are not commanded to go our and convert *and* kill! We are
forbidden to kill! Contrary to what you believe, the Crusaders were
not Christians.
>are Christians that insecure
>about their faith (or shall I say DEEPLY question their beliefs)? All
>this to achieve to be only a perfect being?
>
Are Muslims misled to engage in Jihad?
>Read the Dead Sea Scrolls, especially the second gospel of Philip
>(which IS recognised as historical documents, VERY ACCUTATE to
>history). You might learn something...
Will you read the entire Bible?, you might learn something, too!
>
>Eritis Sicut Deus, Scientes Bonnum Et Malum!!!
>from the Latin (You are like God, knowing between Good and Evil)
Do you not remember that was the result of doing Satan's bidding. We
were not created that way! Nor, do we have the prerogatives of
Divinity, although we have His ear.
>
>Mindphaser
Raymond C.
Ein...@ix.netcom.com (Mindphaser) writes:
Interesting, that you are a Buddhist. I hope you know about Buddha.
Buddha was Just a man. He never gatherd a group for hmself. He didn't
even call himself a prophet. He saw a light during his meditation and
he didn't tell anyone who that light was. He was only against the Hindu
practices that time. Brahmins (Hindu priesthood) used to sacrifice
animals in their temple and ate meat (They became vegetarians later - I
don't want to go into history of Hinduism now) Buddha was against
killing animals. I can go on with everything Buddha preached and they
are simply finding the mistakes in the practices of Brahmins. Because
he was a prince he was able to establish his belief in India. Now
Buddhism is dead in India because Brahmins adapted a few popular
beliefs from Buddhism and converted Buddhist ashrams into Hindu temples
or Hindu ashrams.
Now Buddhists don't have a God. Some call buddha a prophet but he
himself didn't say that. That's why you are talking, rather, comparing
biliefs. A belief system wouldn't add knowledge about God (neither
about satan nor hell). Only God can reveal these things. A religion is
just a belief system that came by tradition. But, Christianity is
knowing Jesus, like Ben put it "Only knowing the author of the Bible is
counted." So, it is erroneous to compare Christianity to religions (or
any belief system). In any religion, men are trying to reach out to God
but in Christianity God came down to save men. He came and revealed
himself and gives life to everyone that believes in Him. He didn't
leave his believers alone, he sent His Holy Spirit to dwell in them.
Because the Holy Spirit dwells in us we know the living God. Now, it is
no longer a belief system to argue with because every belief system not
endorsed by God is futile; leads to death. Religion never sets people
free, or heals the sick, or changes lives, or brings closer to God. But
where the Spirit of Lord is there is liberty.
Unfortunately, many Christian denominations has lost their relationship
with the living God and adapted customs from pagan religions and have
become one like them. I am not talking about them. I am talking about
Christians who are undefiled by the traditions of men and unadulterated
by pagan religions; but have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Hope this will help you taking your eyes off your belief and receive
Jesus Christ in your heart that you will know for sure that you are
heading for heaven and not to hell. It is a glorious experience to
receive Christ. He created you and chose to live in you. What a great
deal to have the creator himself living in you. He is too great that my
words will fail to explain.
Ray.
David Ancell
>
>I believe you have one fatal flaw in your post here. How do you know
>that someone without Jesus will or will not go to hell? Isn't that
>making you a judge (a position no mortal has a right to)?
>
>Is that saying that a Muslim is lesser than a christian (which
>christianity is a MINORITY religion in the world)?
>
>Here's a concept: I'm a Buddhist, I do not believe in a devil, satan,
>or hell. If I screw-up, I come back and do it all over again. Is my
>belief lesser than yours (or more)?
>
>I was taught that everyone's beliefs are BOTH the right and the wrong
>way depending on an individual's perception. But the true belief is
>the belief that one holds to THEMSELF. When one's belief is forced
>upon others with defferent beliefs, it weakens the forcer.
>
>Think about it, I await your reply...
>Mindphaser
Mindphaser,
You seem to have this idea that God is something inside of our
minds that we can create to suit our liking. After all, you did say
that "The true belief is the belief that one holds to THEMSELF,"
<emphasis yours>. However, that simply cannot be. God is who he is
regardless of what you and I may believe. There is a definite truth
about God. You and I cannot custom-make God to suit our own likings.
This God revealed himself through the prophets of old and
through Jesus Christ. Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead.
No one has been able to explain the ressurection away, although many
have tried. The resurection is the proof of authenticity.
Although Buddhism or any other religion may contain some truth,
the complete truth may only be found in Christianity. You may be
sincerly seeking God. I cannot judge you, but I will pray for you.
David Ancell
David Ancell
fri...@wpi.edu says...
>
>
>
>On 30 Jan 1996, Joel Mann wrote:
>
>> Christianity is about honesty and openness however it is not about to
>> lay down and be run over either. The acceptance of criticism has
been
>> the bulwark of Christianity for centuries.
>
>my people (the Jews) for two millenia. For 1500 years the clergy
>completely controlled education so that no opposing thought could enter
>their followers' minds, and no one would ever question Jesus' message.
>And they've accepted criticism so well that anyone who spoke ill of the
>church has been systematically excommunicated. Even today Christians
>accept criticism so well that I'm going to be flooded with flames just
>like I always am every time I question Jesus even a little on these
>newsgroups.
>
>Joel, I have no idea where you got your information from, but the above
>quote is about the dumbest thing that I think I've ever heard. If you
>-Frick
Frick,
Let's cut out the cussing and namecalling. It really is not
necessary. In fact, you'll probably noticed that I did a little
editing.
The church belongs to God. However, human beings belong to it.
Anywhere you have human beings involved you will always have those who
are good and holy and those who are liars, thieves, murderers, etc. I
am not saying that what has been done to Jews in the past was right, but
I am saying that you can't blame the Christians today for what happened
in the past. You also should not blame the good, solid Christians for
what is done by hypocrites.
Anyway, we Christians get quite a lot of criticism on our
newsgroups. Of course, we respond to them. Do you really think that we
are going to let criticisms of our Lord and Savior stand? No way, we
will answer.
I'm sorry for those people who have such tempers that there
messages appear hate-filled. That is inappropriate for a Christian.
However, it is necessary to defend our beliefs, just as you defend
yours.
David Ancell
David Ancell
>
>
>On 30 Jan 1996, Joel Mann wrote:
>
>> Christianity is about honesty and openness however it is not about to
>> lay down and be run over either. The acceptance of criticism has been
>> the bulwark of Christianity for centuries.
>
>completely controlled education so that no opposing thought could enter
>their followers' minds, and no one would ever question Jesus' message.
>And they've accepted criticism so well that anyone who spoke ill of the
>church has been systematically excommunicated. Even today Christians
>accept criticism so well that I'm going to be flooded with flames just
>like I always am every time I question Jesus even a little on these
>newsgroups.
>
>Joel, I have no idea where you got your information from, but the above
>quote is about the dumbest thing that I think I've ever heard. If you
>truely believe that
Rynne McCoy
thought part of christianity was believing in 'being saved' 'being born
again' and such, having a 'new heart' that did not partake of the former
stuff -- hypocrisy & all. How then does it come to pass that people in
the church argue against "condemning" christianity based on the
characters of people in the church? This seems inconsistent. I mean, if
I go to a store & all the fruit is rotten, I'm certainly not gonna shop
there. So which is it? Are they changed or are they the same. It can't
be both ways -- if it is, then your religion becomes nothing more than an
easy excuse to slough off your responsibility to other human beings for
the way you deal with them. I'm not advocating that everyone be 'fluff
bunnies' and pretend to like what they really loathe -- far be it from
Me! -- but I demand consistency. If one is going to say that one has
been changed by some religious or spiritual experience, there ought to be
a Reality there substantiating it, right? Otherwise it's all in their
futile & deceived imaginations. Since the sort of 'change' christians
claim to have is one along the lines of 1 Corinthians 13 style Love, then
there ought to be a consistency here. Or else if the religion is just
about changing their perception of hypocrisy & wrongs to being one of
"well, we're all sinners anyway; what did you expect?" then the believers
& adherents of it ought to maintain consistency and not claim things that
are not real in their experience. *CONSISTENCY* is the key word here --
not judgments about the merits or lack thereof in any particular
religion; please don't mistake this for an "against-christianity" flame.
--
BABALON 156 *** SHEDONA 435 | she...@intrepid.net
"I Am the Heart of All Things; but most of all,
I am Your Heart." -- My HGA
SDB
living like what we say is important to us. Would you allow for a
"learning curve" on the behavioral and attitude adjustments necessary to
be consistent with the "new life" of Jesus?
Your reference to "rotten fruit" is a legitimate biblical objection to
what might be counterfeit religiousity -- there was certainly plenty of
that in Jesus' day. Have you ever met an authentic Christian who seems
to know God and is, in your opinion, an example of "good fruit"?
Steve
Dan Hansen
I missed the start of this string, but in reference to the "bad fruit" analogy by
Rynne McCoy, I hope to try and answer your questions somewhat.
The reason many Christians may be asking against condemning Christianity
based on people in the church, may be that many people who go to a church are what
many call "Sunday Christians". They pertend to be Christian by simply showing up on
Sunday and paying lip service. This, obviously, as you hint to in your letter, is not
true Christianity. Still, they have every right to be there, and, hopefully, one day,
they will realize the hypocrisy of their position, and repent from it. But as you can
see, you cannot pick a person from a church at random, and say "This must be what a
Christian is, I'll base everything I think Christianity to be on this 'model'."
"Narrow is the road that leads to salvation" and there are many who will not find it.
You cannot judge a religion by those who do not truly follow it any more than you could
judge the academia of a school by those who never attend class and flunk out because
of it.
Dan Hansen
1Cor10:31/2Cor4:13
The Mountain
Quintana <dqui...@desdbx.com> wrote:
> The real question is -- Are the claims of Christ true or not? Is His truth,
> The Truth? If so, then the claims of all other relegions pale in
comparison.
> As a matter of fact, they conflict with His claims. Budhism, Islam, Hinuism
>do not reconcile with Christianity. .....
> So each person has to make a clear and reasoned decision. Are the claims of
> Christ true or not? Yes or no?...
True in what sense? In a 19th century scientific historical sense of
verifiable truth? Like you could go back and take a photo of Jesus? Is
that what you mean? Hard to come by that sort of truth, isnt it? Just
look at the arguments about whether or not the Nazi Holocaust happened or
not. Some people will believe any argument as "true" even in the face of
extraordinary "evidence" to the contrary (ie death camps, ovens, mountains
of clothing, etc) All religions who aspire to this sort of "truth" face
the same problem.
Or so you mean "true" in a faith sense? That your heart and soul speak
to the ultimacy of a set of beliefs. This isnt something you can write
notes to Usenet to confirm. This is an either or situation for you
personally but doesnt really have any impact on me or the claims of Islam
on its believers.
Perhaps you mean a ethical truth? That is you find that the ethical
teachings of Jesus prove "true" in the practice of your life? Certainly
all religions offer such truths. You dont have to accept them but that
doesn't necessarily put you in some superior position. In fact, I have to
wonder how insecure you are in your own "truths" if you feel a need to
rate yours relative to others. Who cares what Hindus believe if you aren't
one of them? They dont threaten you do they?
> The ultimate question is what is True? Jesus is a take or leave it kind of
> God. You either believe what He said is true or not.
In fact, the record shows that before his death Jesus was asked a
question: "What is truth?" and he didn't feel it important enough to
answer. I wonder if indeed this is *THE* ultimate question anyway.
> If you do, you must fall on your knees and call Him "Lord" and "Master."
Says who? You? No where have I found such a requirement. Maybe you need to
wander around bruising your knees. I don't.
Keep the faith and keep posting,
The Mountain
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=.. This message is one of the reasons Exon wants to censor Usenet..=
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morbid maniac
for the most part the prophets agree with each other, but with slightly
different details. it's kind of like they are all descibing the same
object, but are sitting in different places.
if you wonder where i'm getting that prophets agree.... compare a few
things.
jesus and moses said basically the same things, buddha agreed with
hinduism for the most part, also buddha's (eight or nine?) fold path to
nirvana is very alike the ten commandments. Muhammed (did i spell that
right?) was a jew, and his teachings are based from that. that's where i
come from.
of course, i may be way off.
****************************************
************The Morbid Maniac***********
****************************************
There is no time to walk around sulking,
i would rather laugh than cry.
-Bad Religeon "slumber"
****************************************
patrickc
>In <Pine.OSF.3.91.960201...@reno.WPI.EDU> "Brett E.
>As one who *whole heartedly* accepts Jesus as the Messiah promised by
>the Almighty, I must point out to you the duplicity and organized
>deception of the Rabbinate.
As a person born and trained in the christian religion I can tell you
with full comfort you are brainwashed. If you had studied your
scriptures as you should have you would know that all the signs have
never been fulfilled. The deception is with the way christians twist
and take out of context what will help their case and discard the
rest.
>As one little example, who ( I mean did God ) ever authorized the
>change from blood sacrifice to the doing of good deeds to cleanse from
>the effects and penalty of sin (chet - in Hebrew)?????
Have you ever considered normal evolution and maturing of a way of
life. Just as a sapling is flexable enough to change as the wind
blows and still maintains it's individual existance.
>Before you go attacking another, please make sure your ducks are in
>order, and your own house clean!
Physician heal thyself, I think is the proper saying for an answer.
>Steve
>for whom Jesus died
Sorry you feel that way. Too bad you could not earn it, whatever it
is you think you are going to get, on your own.
PatrickC
PatrickC...Internet Address..patrickc@groupz.net
Deny knowledge, deny life. Eliminate censorship.
J. C...protect us all from your bigot followers.
Jevex
emanate from the fact that while we, as Christians, place so
much emphasis on the "new life" that we get when we accept the
Lord Jesus as our savior, and also on the "new creation" that
we become when we have His Spirit to indwell us, that this face
of our beliefs is all that most outiders see.
What they often never give themselves a chance to see is
that, while we _do_ place a lot of stock in that verse that
says that "any man who is in Christ is a new creation..." there
is a slight translational error in the second portion of that
verse. "Behold, old things are passed away, and all things are
become new..." The problem is with the verb, "Become". Now,
although I don't remember all of the proper labels from the
Greek, the verb "become" in the passage is one of those tricky
Greek verbs that denotes a _process_ that, once begun at an
exact point in time, is a _continuing_, _ongoing_ process that
takes some unstated time-period to reach its fruition.
In the particular case of this passage, which should read,
"...all things _are becoming_ new...", the process of
perfection, that is begun the moment we accept Christ, is not
fully completed until we are re-united with Him again, face to
face.
True, the "old man" is done away with at the moment of our
salvation. However, (and we neglect to explain this
sufficiently to so many of those to whom we witness!) we still
have to deal with the old flesh's list of crude desires. The
one true advantage that we (post-salvation) have over our pre-
salvation selves is that NOW we have the _bondage_ of our old
flesh stricken from us. We no longer _have_ to obey those old
lusts and urgings. By the power of His spirit within us, we
now have the ability to walk away from them. It simply takes
a lot of us some little while to learn how to _use_ that
ability to any extent.
Barry
Mark Bastin
I guess I'm a *sucker* (haha)_but_
F.F. Bruce, M.A., D.D., F.B.A. (Formerly Rylands Professor of Biblical
Criticism and Exegesis in the University of Manchester, England) wrote in
his book "The New Testament Documents: Are they Reliable?" the following, that
might be of interest:-
The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than
the evidence for many writings of classical authors, the authenticity of which
no-one dreams of questioning. And if the New Testament were a collection of
secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all
doubt. It is a curious fact that historians have often been much readier to
trust the New Testament records than have many theologians.~1
(Cf. A.N. Sherwin-White, "Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament
(1963), p. 189, for the surprised reaction of a classical historian to
'basic assumptions of form-criticsm of the extremer sort'.)
Somehow or other, there are people who regard a 'sacred book' as ipso faco
under suspicion, and demand much more corroborative evidence for such a work
than they would for an ordinary secular or pagan writing. From the viewpoint
of the historian, the same standards must be applied to both. But we do not
quarrel with those who want more evidence for the New Testament than for other
writings; firstly, because the universal claims which the N.T. makes upon
mankind are so absolute, and the character and works of its chief Figure so
unparalleled, that we want to be as sure of its truth as we possibly can; and
secondly, because in point of fact there is much more evidence for the N.T. than
for other ancient writings of comparable date.
There are in existence over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the N.T. in whole or in
part. The best and most important of these go back to somewhere about AD 350,
the two most important being the Codex Vaticanus, the chief treasure of the
Vatican Library in Rome, and the well-known Codex Sinaiticus, which the British
Government purchased from the Soviet Government for &100,000 on Christmas Day,
1933, and which is now the chief treasur of the British Museum............
.....Perhaps we can appreciate how wealthy the N.T. is in manuscript attestation
if we compare the textual material for other ancient historical works.
For Cęsar's Gallic War (composed between 58 and 50 BC) there are several extant
mss, but only nine or ten are good, and the oldest is some 900 years later than
Cęsar's day. Of the 142 books of the Roman History of Livy (59 BC-AD 17) only
thirty-five survive; these are known to us from not more than twenty mss of any
consequence, only one of which, and that containing fragments of Books iii-vi,
is as old as the fourth century.
Of the fourteen books of the Histories of Tacitus (c. AD100) only four and a half
survive in full and two in part. The text of these extant portions of his two
great historical works depends entirely on two mss, one of the ninth century and
one of the eleventh. The extant mss of his minor works (Dialogus de Oratoribus,
Agricola, Germania) all descend from a codex of the tenth century. The History
of Thucydides (c. 460-400 BC) is known to us from eight mss, the earliest belonging
to c. AD 900, and a few papyrus scraps, belonging to about the beginging of the
Christian era. The same is true of the History of Herodotus (c 488-428 BC).
YET _no_ classial scholar would listen to an argument that the authenticty of
Herodotus or Thucydides si in doubt because the earliest mss of their works
which are of any use to us are over 1,300 years later than the originals.
But how different is the situation of the N.T. in this respect! In addition
to the two excellent mss of the fourth century mentioned above, which are the
earliest of some thousands known to us, considerable fragments remain of papyrus
copies of books of the N.T. dated from 100 to 200 years earlier still. .......
--O.K. long winded I know, but, we have much nore and substantially younger evidence
of the New Testament documents, all well and good, you say. Furthermore we don't
have to rely only on the N.T. for reports of Jesus, as a living being, who walked
on this planet, but there are other classical secular documents and mss dating from
the time (& later, of course) naming and identifing by way of anecdotal evidence, the
person of Jesus.
IHS
Mark Bastin
m...@icenet.blackice.com.au
--Comming at you from Perth W.A--
brad...@gmail.com
> Gandalf the White wrote:
> >
> > Mark Akers (ak...@pop.gate.net) wrote:
> > : On 10 Dec 1995 22:36:59 GMT, Robert K Mertz <bibl...@westol.com>
> > : wrote:
> > :
> > : >Geoff Bjorgan <geof...@sasknet.sk.ca> wrote:
> > : >>> I'm wondering if the historical records indicate whether or not Jesus was
> > : >>> into giving head?
> > : >>>
> > : >>> Any input is greatly appreciated.
> > : >>>
> > : >>> Thanks
> > : >>Father forgive them, they know not what they do.
> > : >We must learn to love them and to teach them. There are those who try to
> > : >destroy our ministry but those who need to, one time, pick up the cross
> > : >that Jesus carried.
> > :
> > : You'd better be thankful that God loved scum even like you... Jesus
> > : died for you, but, personally, I think it was a bad choice. You'd also
> > : better be thankful that I'm not God or you'd be dead for that remark
> > : about the one who saved me. I'd like to have five minutes with you:
> > : I'd teach you a little respect!
> >
> > Looks like their answer is yes, Jesus did give good head.
> >
> > Wonder if he ever took it up the ass.
> >
> > --
>
> The answer is NO. Since according to Jewish Law to be a
> homosexual is to be a sin, Jesus could not be a homosexual.
Jesus is the biggest cocksucker of them all.