GOD exists
Naeem
mixture of good and eveil clay.
when angels asked GOD why did u created human beings as we can worship u well
than human beings and humans r expected to produce turmoil in the world.
then God reply this is what i know and u does'nt know.
this is analogus to a computer game in which each and every kind of
characters r out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that developer
of game has lost its control over the game.
GOD populated the world with human beings with mixed natur of good and evil
and asked to worship failing which will be subjected to penalty at doom's day
Nathan J. Jun
speaking of supernatural creatures...
troll (n) a supernatural creature of Scandinavian folklore, variously
portrayed as a friendly or mischievous dwarf or as a giant, that lives
in caves, in the hills, or under bridges.
<plonk>
- njj
--
_________________________________________________________
|"the one aim of those who practice philosophy in the |
| proper manner is to practice for dying and death." |
| - plato, phaedo |
|-------------------------------------------------------|
| nathan j. jun | department of philosophy |
| 3600 chestnut street | university of pennsylvania |
| box 855 | 433 logan hall |
| philadelphia, pa 19104 | philadelphia, pa 19104 |
| nj...@sas.upenn.edu | de...@phil.upenn.edu |
| www.sas.upenn.edu/~njun | phone: 215.898.8563 |
| 215.417.4645 | fax: 215.898.5576 |
|__________________________|____________________________|
Dr. Smartass
news:4a26c8a9.01112...@posting.google.com:
Subject: GOD exists
Nuh uh.
--
Dr. Smartass
aa# 11110010011
Denizen of Darkness #660
BAAWA Medicine Man and Coroner
White-Hat Hardware Hacker
"They say when you play that Microsoft CD backward you can hear satanic
messages....but that's nothing. If you play it forward it will install
Windows."
"Thou only renteth the mead of the mountain Coors, thy body eventually
rendering unchanged its amber hue." -- The Top 5 List www.topfive.com
(c)2001 by Chris White
William Wingstedt
>GOD Almighty created this universe.human beigns were created from stuff a
>mixture of good and eveil clay.
>
>when angels asked GOD why did u created human beings as we can worship u well
>than human beings and humans r expected to produce turmoil in the world.
>
>then God reply this is what i know and u does'nt know.
Interesting! God sounds just like George Bush.
>
>this is analogus to a computer game in which each and every kind of
>characters r out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that developer
>of game has lost its control over the game.
There is one aspect of control that the developer doesn't have, and
that is whether or not I play. I don't.
>
>GOD populated the world with human beings with mixed natur of good and evil
>and asked to worship failing which will be subjected to penalty at doom's day
I'm not big on worship. Is this when I can finally use my Driver's
Safety Citation ?
Heathen Bastard
na...@email.com (Naeem) wrote:
> GOD Almighty created this universe.human
"universe.human"?
> beigns
What? Beings? Begins? Beigniets?
> were created from stuff a
> mixture of good and eveil clay.
"eveil" - is this some sort of internet slealthing software?
> when angels asked GOD why did u
"U!"
> created human beings as we can worship u
"U!, U!"
> well
Y'know, if you turn it sideways, it's a _tunnel_.
> than human beings and humans r
"Rrrrrrr..."
> expected to produce turmoil in the world.
>
> then God reply this is what i know and u
"Oooh!"
> does'nt know.
>
> this is analogus
Who?
> to a computer game in which each and every kind of
> characters r
R you living inside a computer game?
> out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that
> developer
> of game has lost its control over the game.
Oh yeah, that's a sound analogy.
> GOD populated the world with human beings with mixed natur
What?
> of good and
> evil
> and asked to worship failing which will be subjected to penalty at doom's
> day
Such a nice boy this lil' god of yours.
--
// "If you're not part of the solution, then I'll \\
\\ just get a stronger solvent." --Me //
\\===\\ Heathen Bastard: BAAWA Knight, //===//
\\===\\ cussard extraordinaire, certified loon //===//
*nemo*
news:4a26c8a9.01112...@posting.google.com...
Very unoriginal mythology. Has nothing to do with the real world, though.
So... you picked up enough English to string this crap together, just to get
yourself laughed at? Hey, whatever trips your trigger, I guess...
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.att.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
**************************************************
A little hedonism never hurt anybody...
**************************************************
Kilmir
> mixture of good and eveil clay.
>
> when angels asked GOD why did u created human beings as we can worship u
well
> than human beings and humans r expected to produce turmoil in the world.
>
> then God reply this is what i know and u does'nt know.
>
> this is analogus to a computer game in which each and every kind of
> characters r out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that
developer
> of game has lost its control over the game.
And this is where your analogy bites itself..
> GOD populated the world with human beings with mixed natur of good and
evil
> and asked to worship failing which will be subjected to penalty at doom's
day
The game developer knows beforehand what the eventual result of the
characters will be, and moreover decided their intellect and can predict
their future actions beforehand.
No free will and to judge people by attributes it itself has given them.
Nasty, nasty god. Where's it's sense of fair judgement now?
Oh well, you being a troll you won't react to this, but I just like pointing
out flaws.
Kilmir
--
a.a. #1944
http://questioner.www2.50megs.com/
Rev Phylter
Show me proof
--
Phylter
After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my
hands.
Friedrich Nietzsche
http://www.rudraigh.com/afjc/home.html
Ian (big guy) Tilley
> mixture of good and eveil clay.
>
my ignorance. All these years I've been blind and now I can see. Well it's
no more rock worship for me, it's God all the way :-))
Oh hang on............er which GOD would this be then?
/me gets down on knees and closes eyes in preparation of talking to A god
--
What if the Hokey Pokey IS what its all about?
Ian the silverback
icq #29223056
Chris Nelson
news:4a26c8a9.01112...@posting.google.com...
> GOD Almighty created this universe.
Prove it.
> human beigns were created from stuff a
> mixture of good and eveil clay.
No.
> when angels asked GOD why did u created human beings as we can worship u
well
> than human beings and humans r expected to produce turmoil in the world.
>
> then God reply this is what i know and u does'nt know.
??? Try writing in English.
> this is analogus to a computer game in which each and every kind of
> characters r out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that
developer
> of game has lost its control over the game.
>
> GOD populated the world with human beings with mixed natur of good and
evil
> and asked to worship failing which will be subjected to penalty at doom's
day
Prove it.
--
Chris
AUDIO VIDEO DISCO - "I hear, I see, I learn"
Chris Nelson
news:heathen_bastard-D3...@news.newsguy.com...
> In article <4a26c8a9.01112...@posting.google.com>,
> na...@email.com (Naeem) wrote:
>
> > GOD Almighty created this universe.human
>
> "universe.human"?
He must be a programmer. He's talking about the "human" property of the
object "universe".
> > beigns
>
> What? Beings? Begins? Beigniets?
Benign? Beige? Bagels?
> > were created from stuff a
> > mixture of good and eveil clay.
>
> "eveil" - is this some sort of internet slealthing software?
ROTFL!
> > this is analogus
>
> Who?
I think he meant "analingus".
Radagast
> GOD Almighty created this universe.human beigns were created from stuff a
> mixture of good and eveil clay.
Dear Naeem,
Can you tell me where to get this "good" clay and "eveil" clay?
Is "eveil" a specific brand of evil clay?
I am a potter and I'm sure some of my customers would be interested in
pots made from these specific clays. Sort of target marketing. Good clay
pots to Christians and other theists, Evil clay pots to Satanists, devil
worshipers, and Republicans, you get the idea. Perhaps a few combination
pots sold to realists and lawfully neutral gnomes. I have checked at my
local pottery supply houses, but they all are adamant over only selling
earthenware, stoneware, and porcelain.
Assistance in this endeavor would be of great help.
Regards,
Glenn
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."
Louis Kuhelj
> "Naeem" <na...@email.com> wrote in message
> news:4a26c8a9.01112...@posting.google.com...
> > GOD Almighty created this universe.human beigns were created from stuff a
> > mixture of good and eveil clay.
> >
> > when angels asked GOD why did u created human beings as we can worship u
> well
> > than human beings and humans r expected to produce turmoil in the world.
> >
> > then God reply this is what i know and u does'nt know.
> >
> > this is analogus to a computer game in which each and every kind of
> > characters r out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that
> developer
> > of game has lost its control over the game.
> >
> > GOD populated the world with human beings with mixed natur of good and
> evil
> > and asked to worship failing which will be subjected to penalty at doom's
> day
>
> Show me proof
God requires faith. Proof would destroy it. This is why only evidence
exists and not proof.
Eric Pepke
> mixture of good and eveil clay.
Now I know why Christians act the way they do.
The aluminum salts that are the primary component of clay give them
Alzheimer's disease.
Abner Mintz
> God requires faith. Proof would destroy it.
"Not much of a god if proof would destroy it. Imagine,
come the Last Trump, proof of God finally exists ... and
so God ceases to exist. Poof! Vanishes in a puff of logic!
(Ref: Douglas Adams.)" :)
Andrew Lias
Naeem <na...@email.com> wrote:
>GOD Almighty created this universe.human beigns were created from stuff a
>mixture of good and eveil clay.
I am surprised that clay is capable of assuming moral positions. Are
there any other innanimate entities that are capable of doing so as well,
or is this a special property of clay?
>when angels asked GOD why did u created human beings as we can worship u well
>than human beings and humans r expected to produce turmoil in the world.
Pet peeve: "U" is not a pronoun, and "R" is not a word. "You" and "are"
are both three letters long, which hardly constitutes an offense to
brevity.
>then God reply this is what i know and u does'nt know.
God sounds a bit like a Hillbilly?
Be that as it may, this answer is rather a non-answer. I'm not saying
that it's inconsistent with scripture (witness the reply that God
supposedly gave to Job to "explain" why Job had to suffer, which can be
paraphrased as, "I'm bigger and more powerful than you, so you don't have
any right to question me.")
>this is analogus to a computer game in which each and every kind of
>characters r out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that developer
>of game has lost its control over the game.
This seems to be a bit of a non-sequiter. A game designer does not,
generally, create the people who play the game. If he did, then he would,
in fact, be responsible for whether or not a given character won or lost.
>GOD populated the world with human beings with mixed natur of good and evil
>and asked to worship failing which will be subjected to penalty at doom's day
So you are suggesting that God created deliberately flawed beings and then
chose to punish a great many of them for, essentially, being flawed.
There's a word for that sort of activity: sadism.
--
I'm giving the bird to spam; remove the middle finger to reply to me.
*-----------*------------------*-----------------------*------------*
Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely
powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is
deeply and personally concerned about my sex life.
*-----------*------------------*-----------------------*------------*
http://www.wco.com/~anrwlias
Al Klein
alt.atheism:
>GOD Almighty created this universe.
If you say so. A little objective evidence might be nice.
>human beigns were created from stuff a mixture of good and eveil clay.
Or not, but you're entitled to your belief, no matter how nuts it is.
>when angels asked GOD why did u created human beings as we can worship u well
>than human beings and humans r expected to produce turmoil in the world.
>then God reply this is what i know and u does'nt know.
You actually believe this nonsense, or are you having us on?
>this is analogus to a computer game in which each and every kind of
>characters r out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that developer
>of game has lost its control over the game.
So god is a programmer, and we're bytes of computer memory. Are you
sure you didn't just finish watching Matrix?
>GOD populated the world with human beings with mixed natur of good and evil
>and asked to worship failing which will be subjected to penalty at doom's day
When you grow up and stop believing in fairy tales why don't you get
back to us. Until then give the computer back to mommy or daddy and
go play with the other children.
--
Al - rukbat at optonline dot net
Olrik
Naeem wrote:
What an eveil god you have there! ;-)
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
Emi Melissa Briet
> this is analogus to a computer game in which each and every kind of
> characters r out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that developer
> of game has lost its control over the game.
So life is a first-person shooter? Or is it an RPG? ;)
--Emi-chan
Heathen Bastard
Nelson" <cris...@REMOVEhome.com> wrote:
*Ouch*
> Chris
> AUDIO VIDEO DISCO - "I hear, I see, I learn"
Hey - wouldn't that be, "I hear, I see, I boogie"?
Heathen Bastard
yar...@aol.com (Louis Kuhelj) wrote:
"'Oh, I hadn't thought of that', said God, as he went up in a puff of
logic."
> This is why only evidence
> exists and not proof.
And you're evading the issue by saying so. Let's see some of thei
"evidence" you so blithely speak of.
Oh yeah - before you show us your "evidence", go look the word up in the
O.E.D. Doing so will help you look a lot less foolish than you currently
do.
Rev Phylter
"Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4056b7bd.0111...@posting.google.com...
Show me evidence
Rev Phylter
"Emi Melissa Briet" <e...@emiofbrie.com> wrote in message
news:ad5bb718.01112...@posting.google.com...
Yep
joe khol
I'd say RPG in most cases though a few people play it like a
first-person shooter.
Some players are going to be very disapointed when they find out that
there isn't a secret 'heaven' level at the end of the game and you
don't get the option to play again with a different character :-)
Joe Khol
Fred Stone
Just try to get through without running out of Sanity points. ;-)
--
Fred Stone
aa # 1369
BAAWA Brewmaster
Dethstryk
>>> So life is a first-person shooter? Or is it an RPG? ;)
>>
>> I'd say RPG in most cases though a few people play it like a
>> first-person shooter.
>>
>> Some players are going to be very disapointed when they find out that
>> there isn't a secret 'heaven' level at the end of the game and you
>> don't get the option to play again with a different character :-)
>
> Just try to get through without running out of Sanity points. ;-)
I'd love to see an end-of-life stats screen, myself.
--
"A large train can keep going for miles after the brakes are applied.
This is why at railroad crossings, the train has the right-of-way instead
of your car." - Mamoud, SA Forums
x---------------------------------x
Dethstryk aa #1884
jema...@tcainternet.com
ICQ: 9929528
BAAWA Knit
"filthy mouth reprobate sinner"
Louis Kuhelj
> Louis Kuhelj <yar...@aol.com> wrote:
> > God requires faith. Proof would destroy it.
>
> "Not much of a god if proof would destroy it. Imagine,
Proof would destroy faith.
> come the Last Trump, proof of God finally exists ... and
> so God ceases to exist. Poof! Vanishes in a puff of logic!
> (Ref: Douglas Adams.)" :)
You meant to be funny. Sorry I misunderstood at first, but now I see. ;)
Louis Kuhelj
I'm getting tired of reposting it. It's somewhere in these newsgroups.
Louis Kuhelj
Already did and didn't get any response. Do a search.
Heathen Bastard
yar...@aol.com (Louis Kuhelj) wrote:
Translation:
"I don't have it, but I'm gonna make the claim anyway."
I suppose that you've never heard of "cut & paste"? Oh wait. You're
using AOL. Nevermind.
Abner Mintz
>>> God requires faith. Proof would destroy it.
Abner Mintz write:
>> "Not much of a god if proof would destroy it. Imagine,
Louis Kuhelj <yar...@aol.com> wrote:
> Proof would destroy faith.
"I thought that was what you meant, but the ambiguous
pronoun usage was too funny to pass up." :)
>> come the Last Trump, proof of God finally exists ... and
>> so God ceases to exist. Poof! Vanishes in a puff of logic!
>> (Ref: Douglas Adams.)" :)
> You meant to be funny. Sorry I misunderstood at first, but now I see. ;)
"'Meant to be funny' - ow, I guess I deserved that." :)
stoney
<4a26c8a9.01112...@posting.google.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
>GOD Almighty created this universe.human beigns were created from stuff a
>mixture of good and eveil clay.
(edging away from the madman) "Sure thing, whatever you say..NURSE! Bring that
strait jacket-STAT!" (and the butterfly net)
(snip bovine excrement)
--
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
stoney
<4056b7bd.0111...@posting.google.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
Unsupported assertions and furious handwaving is not evidence.
stoney
Message ID: <t5oN7.38374$li3.3...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in alt.atheism;
He needs a coherant definition for the g-o-d letter string and then address the
broken logic of the creator concept.
The requiring of faith is evidence against the assertion.
stoney
ID: <ad5bb718.01112...@posting.google.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
Ah, Half-Life.... :)
>--Emi-chan
stoney
ID: <pan.2001.11.29.07...@earthling.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
Naeem ran out before s/he crossed the starting line.
joe khol
Oh, I rolled a zero on that one when I created the character.
Joe Khol
Rev Phylter
Oooohhh, so, you're saying, look at the trees, look at the flowers, look at
the birds, look at the bees, there is God's work. Sorry pal, you'll have to
do better than that.
Jump off the Eiffel Tower and I'll catch you, you'll be OK if you believe in
me.
Is that the kind of belief you're talking about?
--
Rev Phylter
ULC Ordained Minister
Rev Phylter
And I'm getting tired of twats such as yourself wearing your religious
hearts on your sleeves. If you have a faith of any persuasion, that's fine
by me. I don't believe in a deity anyway. All I ask of you is that you keep
your faith to yourself. Or, to put it another way, would you care that I
like playing guitar, listening to Pink Floyd, enjoying spending time with my
family? No, it's my business, and I don't expect you to care. Inversely, I
don't care for you, pushing what *suits you* upon others.
IOW, don't push *your* religion. You'll piss a lot of people off. You've
already done it to me.
Louis Kuhelj
All you have to do is filter me out. If you were really as upset
about this conversation we're having as you claim, you would not
bother to reply to my posts. You have a choice...dump me in your twit
file. It's not like I'm holding a gun to your head and making you read
this in this group.
Louis Kuhelj
Actually, I have an AOL account...and I agree with your TIC comment
about the sofware...but I am using a Library computer to access this
group that does not allow cut and paste. You know how those system
administrators hava proclivity toward delusions of godhood. Anyways,
do a search in alt.atheism for "Evidence for the existance of God" and
you should be able to find your answers.
Louis Kuhelj
Actually, I have an AOL account...and I agree with your TIC comment
Louis Kuhelj
No...I have posted evidence. Please inform yourself as to what I am
talking about by doing a search in alt.atheism for "Evidence for the
existance of God."
Louis Kuhelj
> On 28 Nov 2001 13:55:55 -0800, yar...@aol.com (Louis Kuhelj), Message ID:
> <4056b7bd.0111...@posting.google.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
>
> >"Rev Phylter" <phylter@_mailandnews.com> wrote in message news:<T%4N7.37418$li3.3...@ozemail.com.au>...
> >> "Naeem" <na...@email.com> wrote in message
> >> news:4a26c8a9.01112...@posting.google.com...
> >> > GOD Almighty created this universe.human beigns were created from stuff a
> >> > mixture of good and eveil clay.
> >> >
> >> > when angels asked GOD why did u created human beings as we can worship u
> well
> >> > than human beings and humans r expected to produce turmoil in the world.
> >> >
> >> > then God reply this is what i know and u does'nt know.
> >> >
> >> > this is analogus to a computer game in which each and every kind of
> >> > characters r out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that
> developer
> >> > of game has lost its control over the game.
> >> >
> >> > GOD populated the world with human beings with mixed natur of good and
> evil
> >> > and asked to worship failing which will be subjected to penalty at doom's
> >> day
> >>
> >> Show me proof
> >
> > God requires faith. Proof would destroy it. This is why only evidence
> >exists and not proof.
>
> Unsupported assertions and furious handwaving is not evidence.
I have provided ample evidence that is discovered through the use of
logic and will post several segments that describe the evidence for
your own examination. Some is sitting in this group as I type.
Fred Stone
Save your time and don't bother with the rest until you address the
fallacies in the first three.
Tom
> talking about by doing a search in alt.atheism for "Evidence for the
> existance of God."
Tom: Bull shit. I haven't seen any evidence from you!
Abner Mintz
> No...I have posted evidence.
"I'm afraid I have to disagree: you have posted
arguments, not evidence, and the arguments were
not (IMO) based on good assumptions. If I
don't agree with the premises, I'm not going
to accept the conclusion."
"Feel free to present evidence if you can, but
please don't think that arguments are evidence."
stoney
<4056b7bd.01113...@posting.google.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
Haven't seen any sign of anything other than unsupported assertions. Keep in
mind you need a coherant definition for the key letter string which is g-o-d.
Don't forget to address the broken logic inheirant with the creator concept and
keep in mind handwaving and usnsupported assertions don't qualify as addressing
it.
Heathen Bastard
yar...@aol.com (Louis Kuhelj) wrote:
*Right*
Dude, that is posibly the lamesst excuse I have ever heard.
> You know how those system
> administrators hava proclivity toward delusions of godhood.
No actualy. I certainly don't, nor do any of the other sysadmins that I
know. We don't, however, have much use for Lusers.
> Anyways,
> do a search in alt.atheism for "Evidence for the existance of God" and
> you should be able to find your answers.
You made the claim, asshole, *you* post the evidence.
Paul Murray
news:4056b7bd.0111...@posting.google.com...
> > Show me proof
>
> God requires faith. Proof would destroy it. This is why only evidence
> exists and not proof.
How do you know tht God requires faith? Did you just make this up?
__________________________________________________
Spot the difference!
Jer 48:10 A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him
who keeps his sword from bloodshed!
Mk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.
Quran 2 And kill them wherever you find them, ... if they do fight you, then
slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pmurray .
Paul Murray
news:4056b7bd.0111...@posting.google.com...
> God requires faith. Proof would destroy it. This is why only evidence
> exists and not proof.
So you admit that there is no proof. Why then would you expect anyone to
belive it?
Paul Murray
> > > > > > GOD Almighty created this universe.human beigns were created
from
> > > stuff a
> > > > > > mixture of good and eveil clay.
Where did the eveil clay come from? Was it there already before God
started, or did God make it?
prab...@shamrocksgf.com
> "Rev Phylter" <phylter@_mailandnews.com> wrote in message news:<T%4N7.37418$li3.3...@ozemail.com.au>...
>> "Naeem" <na...@email.com> wrote in message
>> news:4a26c8a9.01112...@posting.google.com...
>> > mixture of good and eveil clay.
>> >
>> well
>> > than human beings and humans r expected to produce turmoil in the world.
>> >
>> > then God reply this is what i know and u does'nt know.
>> >
>> > this is analogus to a computer game in which each and every kind of
>> > characters r out there and anyone can win. but it does'nt mean that
>> developer
>> > of game has lost its control over the game.
>> >
>> > GOD populated the world with human beings with mixed natur of good and
>> evil
>> > and asked to worship failing which will be subjected to penalty at doom's
>> day
>>
>> Show me proof
> God requires faith. Proof would destroy it. This is why only evidence
> exists and not proof.
show us ANY evidence then...no-one's even done that, yet...
--
Mike
W hat atheism: a non-prophet organization...
W ould
J enna
D rink?
proof: god hates Baptists and likes gays... http://morons.org/articles/3/359
-------------------------------
the illustrated bible:
http://www.consumptionjunction.com/crazycrap/view.asp?ID=5403
-------------------------------
http://truthordare.dyndns.org/t-or-d
Now, here's a little game that a lot of us played before a certain
over-rated bleached-blonde singer ever got the idea.
It's simple. It's titillating. It's childish. It's perfect!
And now it's updated for the Net.
-------------------------------
let the spammers put these in their databases....
tos...@aol.com ab...@aol.com ab...@yahoo.com ab...@hotmail.com
ab...@msn.com ab...@sprint.com ab...@earthlink.com u...@ftc.gov
The Ghost In The Machine
<jema...@tcainternet.com>
wrote
on Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:48:44 -0000
<Xns91688208AA399je...@207.126.101.100>:
> [alt.atheism] Fred Stone (fsto...@earthling.com):
>
>>>> So life is a first-person shooter? Or is it an RPG? ;)
>>>
>>> first-person shooter.
>>>
>>> Some players are going to be very disapointed when they find out that
>>> there isn't a secret 'heaven' level at the end of the game and you
>>> don't get the option to play again with a different character :-)
>>
>> Just try to get through without running out of Sanity points. ;-)
>
>
Even better: another token to play again. :-)
--
ew...@aimnet.com -- insert random video game addict here
EAC code #191 1d:14h:52m actually running Linux.
It's a conspiracy of one.
Louis Kuhelj
> "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:4056b7bd.0111...@posting.google.com...
>
> > God requires faith. Proof would destroy it. This is why only evidence
> > exists and not proof.
>
> So you admit that there is no proof. Why then would you expect anyone to
> belive it?
Of course I admit there is no proof. I claim there is evidence, not
proof.
I expect God to reveal himself to each individual in his own good time
because "He is not willing that any should perish, but all should come
to repentance." God convinces people. Sometimes it's just a matter of
time.
Wolf333
Well, not only is there no proof, there is no evidence. Theist crap thrown
aside. Bring some concrete evidence or proof and we'll talk. Otherwise, fuck
off.
--
_____
"You have annoyed the wrong clerk, you skinny freak! Now, feel my Devil
Doom-Evil!!! I GIVE YOU SATANIC HEAD BITEY!!!"
- Jhonen Vasquez - JTHM
Michael Wolfe
AA# 1912
_____
Don Kresch
Kuhelj) let us all know that:
>"Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<LjvO7.124794$e5.3...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
>> "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:4056b7bd.0111...@posting.google.com...
>>
>> > God requires faith. Proof would destroy it. This is why only evidence
>> > exists and not proof.
>>
>> So you admit that there is no proof. Why then would you expect anyone to
>> belive it?
>
>
>Of course I admit there is no proof. I claim there is evidence, not
>proof.
There isn't even evidence.
>I expect God to reveal himself to each individual in his own good time
>because "He is not willing that any should perish, but all should come
>to repentance." God convinces people. Sometimes it's just a matter of
>time.
Mystical cop-out.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, EAC Decryption squad
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Tim Eberly
"Wolf333" <wol...@spamsuxexcite.com> wrote in message
news:DFuW7.192404$kf1.58...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
> "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
> > "Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:<LjvO7.124794$e5.3...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> > > "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > news:4056b7bd.0111...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> > > > God requires faith. Proof would destroy it. This is why only
evidence
> > > > exists and not proof.
> > >
> > > So you admit that there is no proof. Why then would you expect anyone
to
> > > belive it?
> >
> >
> > Of course I admit there is no proof. I claim there is evidence, not
> > proof.
> > I expect God to reveal himself to each individual in his own good time
> > because "He is not willing that any should perish, but all should come
> > to repentance." God convinces people. Sometimes it's just a matter of
> > time.
>
> Well, not only is there no proof, there is no evidence. Theist crap thrown
> aside. Bring some concrete evidence or proof and we'll talk. Otherwise,
fuck
> off.
You not only don't believe in God, but you hate God. You hate something you
don't believe exists.
Evidence that God exists <=> life.
-------
"This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you,
that God is light and in him is no darkness at all."
--1 John 1:5--
Tim
AC# 4123 :P
>
> --
> _____
> "You have annoyed the wrong clerk, you skinny freak! Now, feel my Devil
> Doom-Evil!!! I GIVE YOU SATANIC HEAD BITEY!!!"
> - Jhonen Vasquez - JTHM
> Michael Wolfe
> AA# 1912
> _____
>
>
Wolf333
news:3c2a8...@corp.newsgroups.com...
How can I hate something in which I do not believe? Wait, I was using logic
there, didn't mean to confuse you. And your assertions are neither evidence
nor proof. And they are far from concrete evidence.
_____
"You have annoyed the wrong clerk, you skinny freak! Now, feel my Devil
Doom-Evil!!! I GIVE YOU SATANIC HEAD BITEY!!!"
- Jhonen Vasquez - JTHM
Michael Wolfe
AA# 1912
_____
Servers! =-----
Muddy Boggs
"Tim Eberly" <chek...@elltel.net> wrote
>
> Evidence that God exists <=> life.
>
Nonsequitur.
Here is the actual state of affairs:
any instance of life => evidence that life exists
any instance of a god => evidence that a god exists
Tim Eberly
"Muddy Boggs" <muddy...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VixW7.406$NE5.4137@rwcrnsc53...
If life is not evidence for you, then what is? Can you give me an example of
the type of evidence you are looking for?
Tim Eberly
My point exactly.
> Wait, I was using logic
> there, didn't mean to confuse you.
You confuse logic with sarcasm.
> And your assertions are neither evidence
> nor proof. And they are far from concrete evidence.
>
If life is not evidence for you, then what is? Can you give me an example of
the type of evidence you are looking for?
Tink
can't communicate with something that does.
--
Insanity takes its toll, please have exact change...
The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
"Wolf333" <wol...@spamsuxexcite.com> wrote in message
news:DFuW7.192404$kf1.58...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
Bob Simmons
>
> "Muddy Boggs" <muddy...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:VixW7.406$NE5.4137@rwcrnsc53...
> >
> > "Tim Eberly" <chek...@elltel.net> wrote
> >
> > >
> > > Evidence that God exists <=> life.
> > >
> >
> > Nonsequitur.
> >
> > Here is the actual state of affairs:
> >
> > any instance of life => evidence that life exists
> >
> > any instance of a god => evidence that a god exists
> >
>
>
> If life is not evidence for you, then what is? Can you give me an example
of
> the type of evidence you are looking for?
>
existance of a god were true, and had the scientific evidence, I would give
thought to the possibility. I require the evidence, for I would not follow
top scientists blindly. That would be silly. Of the top scientists, only a
very small percentage (less than five percent) hold beliefs in gods or
afterlife. These top scientists are the same people curing diseases, etc.
thanks
Wolf333
God appearing to me, in front of others (for verification) and saying "Mike,
I'm god. Deal with it."
To put it bluntly, there is nothing that anyone who is not god can do or say
to convince me that there is a, any, the god.
>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups
--
_____
"You have annoyed the wrong clerk, you skinny freak! Now, feel my Devil
Doom-Evil!!! I GIVE YOU SATANIC HEAD BITEY!!!"
- Jhonen Vasquez - JTHM
Michael Wolfe
AA# 1912
_____
Tom
thrown
> > aside. Bring some concrete evidence or proof and we'll talk. Otherwise,
> fuck
> > off.
>Tim: You not only don't believe in God, but you hate God. You hate
something you
> don't believe exists.
>
> Evidence that God exists <=> life.
Tom: No he doesn't hate God, he just hates the followers of God, like you.
Don Kresch
<chek...@elltel.net> let us all know that:
Piss-poor pop-psych
You can't hate that which does not exist. You're simply
projecting your hatred of reality onto everyone else.
>Evidence that God exists <=> life.
Nope. That's called begging the question.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, EAC Decryption squad
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man
Don Kresch
>news:sbwW7.192818$kf1.58...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
[snip]
>> And your assertions are neither evidence
>> nor proof. And they are far from concrete evidence.
>>
>If life is not evidence for you, then what is? Can you give me an example of
>the type of evidence you are looking for?
A coherent definition of what this god is and how you know it.
Note: the bible is not a valid reference as its veracity is in
question.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, EAC Decryption squad
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man
Louis Kuhelj
That's not evidence...that's proof.
chri...@the.crossroads
>> > You not only don't believe in God, but you hate God. You hate something
>> you
>> > don't believe exists.
>> >
>> > Evidence that God exists <=> life.
You are going to have to explain that to me as well,
and, BTW, I am a christian.
>>
>> How can I hate something in which I do not believe?
>
>My point exactly.
Perhaps you would care to clarify; Exactly what point are
you making?
The only options that I see, are 1: you are stupid. 2: you
are dishonest.
Personally, I suspect both, but I am not unkind enough to say
that.
>
>> Wait, I was using logic
>> there, didn't mean to confuse you.
>
>You confuse logic with sarcasm.
Or more likely, you failed to notice the switch.
>
>> And your assertions are neither evidence
>> nor proof. And they are far from concrete evidence.
>>
>If life is not evidence for you,
Life is only evidence of life, it is not evidence of
a creator.
>then what is?
Nothing, there is none, Nor is there need for any, except
by those who are poor in faith.
The atheist does not believe in a creator, and so needs
no evidence of one,
The faithful have faith in a creator, and so need no
evidence.
Only the poor in faith must needs continually argue their
belief; as much to convince themselves as to convert
others.
Perhaps you would be happier as an atheist: I am sure that
God would forgive you for being honest with yourself, where
He may be less forgiving of your dishonesty in His name,
>Can you give me an example of
>the type of evidence you are looking for?
>
He wants you to show him an empiric link between a creator
and life, and not merely an asserted one.
SneakyPete
Life is evidence that life exists, nothing more. Our existence does
not require a creator.
Paul Murray
> Of course I admit there is no proof. I claim there is evidence, not
> proof.
> I expect God to reveal himself to each individual in his own good time
> because "He is not willing that any should perish, but all should come
> to repentance." God convinces people. Sometimes it's just a matter of
> time.
Well, I was a christain all my life and deconversted a few years ago. If
God's intent is that all should belive him, he's doing a lousy job of it.
(PS: this is also known as the "argument from non-belief", aka: ANB)
Paul Murray
news:3c2b1...@corp.newsgroups.com...
> > > Evidence that God exists <=> life.
> > Nonsequitur.
> If life is not evidence for you, then what is? Can you give me an example
of
> the type of evidence you are looking for?
Life is no more evidence for the existence of a god than is the steam
engine. Both are adequately explained in naturalistic terms.
Louis Kuhelj
> "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Of course I admit there is no proof. I claim there is evidence, not
> > proof.
> > I expect God to reveal himself to each individual in his own good time
> > because "He is not willing that any should perish, but all should come
> > to repentance." God convinces people. Sometimes it's just a matter of
> > time.
>
> Well, I was a christain all my life and deconversted a few years ago. If
> God's intent is that all should belive him, he's doing a lousy job of it.
>
> (PS: this is also known as the "argument from non-belief", aka: ANB)
Ok, I know this is a personal question, but there are so many
different folks out there with different definitions of what it means
to be a christian that I have to ask it. On what do you base your
assertion that you were a Christian? What is your definition of a
Chrsitian?
Mark K. Bilbo
> "Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:<MTfX7.32142$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
>> "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
>>
>> > Of course I admit there is no proof. I claim there is evidence, not
>> > proof.
>> > I expect God to reveal himself to each individual in his own good
>> > time because "He is not willing that any should perish, but all
>> > should come to repentance." God convinces people. Sometimes it's just
>> > a matter of time.
>>
>> Well, I was a christain all my life and deconversted a few years ago.
>> If God's intent is that all should belive him, he's doing a lousy job
>> of it.
>>
>> (PS: this is also known as the "argument from non-belief", aka: ANB)
>
>
> Ok, I know this is a personal question, but there are so many
> different folks out there with different definitions of what it means to
> be a christian that I have to ask it. On what do you base your assertion
> that you were a Christian? What is your definition of a Chrsitian?
I was a PB (open) fundamentalist. Part of one of the sects that FOUNDED
the modern fundamentalist movement.
I was a True Christian(tm). So much so, I used to think Falwell was a
liberal (theologically speaking, hey, he comes from a covenant theology
background and We All Know that's Not Biblical eh?).
So I don't listen when alleged christians tell me I never was christian
since they're not Real Christians!
<hah>
--
Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
_________________________________________________________________
"In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree
that it would be perverse to withold provisional assent."
I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the
possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.
[Stephen Jay Gould]
Paul Murray
news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
> > Well, I was a christain all my life and deconversted a few years ago. If
> > God's intent is that all should belive him, he's doing a lousy job of
it.
> >
> > (PS: this is also known as the "argument from non-belief", aka: ANB)
>
> Ok, I know this is a personal question, but there are so many
> different folks out there with different definitions of what it means
> to be a christian that I have to ask it. On what do you base your
> assertion that you were a Christian? What is your definition of a
> Chrsitian?
I belived on Jesus Christ for my salvation - I was saved at a church camp
when I was (say) 10 or so. I belived Jesus died for my sins, and trusted in
that sacrifice to redeem me. I was baptised in water and in the Holy Spirit,
and spoke with other toungues (which I can still do, BTW). I also attended
our church part-time bible college, and played in the church band for 10
years or so, but that's not the important thing.
Christian enough for ya?
Louis Kuhelj
> "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
>
>
> > > Well, I was a christain all my life and deconversted a few years ago. If
> > > God's intent is that all should belive him, he's doing a lousy job of
> it.
> > >
> > > (PS: this is also known as the "argument from non-belief", aka: ANB)
> >
> > Ok, I know this is a personal question, but there are so many
> > different folks out there with different definitions of what it means
> > to be a christian that I have to ask it. On what do you base your
> > assertion that you were a Christian? What is your definition of a
> > Chrsitian?
>
> I belived on Jesus Christ for my salvation - I was saved at a church camp
> when I was (say) 10 or so. I belived Jesus died for my sins, and trusted in
> that sacrifice to redeem me. I was baptised in water and in the Holy Spirit,
> and spoke with other toungues (which I can still do, BTW). I also attended
> our church part-time bible college, and played in the church band for 10
> years or so, but that's not the important thing.
>
> Christian enough for ya?
For the most part you answered my question. Some things about your
answer, in all honesty, bother me.
1) You said that you believed that you 'trusted in the sacrifice to
redeem' you. You didn't say that you believed that that sacrafice
already redeemed you.
You listed things that you did within an organization as the reasons
why I should accept that you were a christian. Although I may be wrong
about this, but it leans just a couple degrees toward salvation
through something one does.
2) The speaking in tongues bothers me personally. The debate has been
going for qute sime time among the charismatic and evengelical circles
regarding this issue. The mere fact that this 'gift' is often the
focal point of a 'Christian' life is in itself problematic as it
focuses a greater importance on the gift and often ignoring the
giver(God). Such an attitude, along with the scriptural assertion that
this gift is infrior to love and that it will cease as in contrast
love will last forever, causes many of us evengelicals to suspect the
source of this gift(?). At best, it is a sign of an immature church
that often fails to meet the spiritual needs of its memeber. Since the
instructions of having an interpretor or praying that the person be
also granted the gift of interpretation along with the fact that in
the first century church Jews were present during such utterances, as
it was primarily aimed at them as evidence of the prophetic("I foreign
tongues I will speak to these people and they will not listen") target
that they were, are often if not exclusively ignored and disobeyed, I
have a real problem with the gift of tongues. Furthermore, an accurate
translation is rendered to mean "known foreign tongues" spoken by
folks with no training in them. For example to be able to speak French
instanly without having learned the language through scholastic
efforts. There was an additional purpose for the gift of tongues in
the first century church, that of spreading the Good News to the four
corners of the earth[metaphorically speaking]. As translations of the
bible are in virtually every tongue in the globe these days at best
the need for the gift of tongues has been rendered diminished, at
worst it has been rendered worthless and without purpose. Such being
the case, God does not give gifts without a pupose or good reason.
While the jury may still be out regarding the gift of tongues, many in
the evengelical movement tend to lean toward a demonic source of the
tongues, rather than a devine one.(Just FYI)
Now then since these 'gifts' lead to disobedience, self
centerdness(rather than God-centerdness), is often for self
gratification rather then the edification(buidling up) of the church
and excludes loving your God with all of your mind (intellect), due to
often willfull ignorance of why this gift was given in the first
century church, I tend to lean toward the view of the majority of the
evengelicals who rightly dismiss the gift of tongues as evidence of
christianity.
3)The order in which you described what happened also bothers me. You
said that you were baptised in water and Holy Spirit. If you listed
those two chronologically, you have it backwards. I'm not saying that
this applies to you, but there are those folks who insist that they
had to wait to be baptised in order to preserve the order in the new
testament times. The holy spirit was not yet made available by Jesus
Christ while the apostles awaited. As Jesus said, he had to go away
before the conforter(Holy Spirit) was sent. These days, Jesus ascended
into heaven some two thousand years ago and also sent the Holy Spirit
to earth at that time, therefore the order of occurance has changed.
One is baptised by the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion, there is
no waiting and the water baptism is a public acknowledgment of
identifying with Christ's death and ressurection along with being an
act of obedience, because it was commanded.
My problem, you see, is that I find a lot of discrepencies in your
answers that just don't line up with the "Christian DNA."
In answer to your question "Christian enough for ya?". You leave more
questions than you answer with your answer.
Clyde
> "Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:<XiuX7.32541$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> > "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > different folks out there with different definitions of what it
means
> > > to be a christian that I have to ask it. On what do you base your
> > > assertion that you were a Christian? What is your definition of a
> > > Chrsitian?
> >
> >I belived on Jesus Christ for my salvation - I was saved at a church
>>camp when I was (say) 10 or so. I belived Jesus died for my sins, and
>>trusted in that sacrifice to redeem me. I was baptised in water and in
the >>Holy Spirit, and spoke with other toungues (which I can still do,
BTW). I >>also attended our church part-time bible college, and played
in the >>church band for 10 years or so, but that's not the important
thing.
> >
> > Christian enough for ya?
>
> For the most part you answered my question. Some things about your
> answer, in all honesty, bother me.
>
> 1) You said that you believed that you 'trusted in the sacrifice to
> redeem' you.
<Snip>
> 2) The speaking in tongues bothers me personally.
<Snip>
> 3)The order in which you described what happened also bothers me.
<Snip>
> My problem, you see, is that I find a lot of discrepencies in your
> answers that just don't line up with the "Christian DNA."
> In answer to your question "Christian enough for ya?". You leave more
> questions than you answer with your answer.
It should not have taken so many words to say he was never a Good
Christian (GC).
You are full of yourself. Would anyone, besides yourself, qualify for a
GC pin?
Paul Murray
> "Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:<XiuX7.32541$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> > "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
> > I belived on Jesus Christ for my salvation - I was saved at a church
camp
> > when I was (say) 10 or so. I belived Jesus died for my sins, and trusted
in
> > that sacrifice to redeem me. I was baptised in water and in the Holy
Spirit,
> > and spoke with other toungues (which I can still do, BTW). I also
attended
> > our church part-time bible college, and played in the church band for 10
> > years or so, but that's not the important thing.
> >
> > Christian enough for ya?
>
> For the most part you answered my question. Some things about your
> answer, in all honesty, bother me.
>
> 1) You said that you believed that you 'trusted in the sacrifice to
> redeem' you. You didn't say that you believed that that sacrafice
> already redeemed you.
That is just being picky about my chioce of words - you are looking for
excuses to belive I was never a christain.
> You listed things that you did within an organization as the reasons
> why I should accept that you were a christian. Although I may be wrong
> about this, but it leans just a couple degrees toward salvation
> through something one does.
No, I never belived salvation-by-works. I just listed my church involvment
to demonstrate that I had nbeen an active christian for some time, and
accepted as such by a church group.
> 2) The speaking in tongues bothers me personally. The debate has been
> going for qute sime time among the charismatic and evengelical circles
> regarding this issue.
Etc etc. Yes, I am aware of the debate, of course.
> Now then since these 'gifts' lead to disobedience, self
> centerdness(rather than God-centerdness), is often for self
> gratification rather then the edification(buidling up) of the church
And so on. Again, you are looking for excuses. Are you willing to state that
my pentecostalism means that I was not "saved" according to your definition?
If not, then this is a mere smokescreen.
> 3)The order in which you described what happened also bothers me. You
> said that you were baptised in water and Holy Spirit. If you listed
> those two chronologically, you have it backwards.
That's arguable. In any case - are you going to say that gettinjg these in
the wrong order means that I was not "saved"?
> One is baptised by the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion
That is a matter of opinion - it's a debatable point. There are plenty of
christians who disagree with you, or are you willing to state that these are
"not real christians"?
> My problem, you see, is that I find a lot of discrepencies in your
> answers that just don't line up with the "Christian DNA."
No, you mean your idea of christian DNA. I'll repeat it again - I belived on
Jesus and trusted in him for my salvation.
PMD
to type in alt.christnet.atheism:
Yeah, but you're a nut, so we would expect you to think something as
stupid as this.
--
>> PMD aa#167
--
He that cannot reason is a fool; he that will not is a bigot;
He that dare not is a slave. - Sir William Drummond c.1770-1828
:Jeremiah 4:6-7; Proverbs 15:1; Romans 3:10 : Matthew 5:44; Luke 19:27
:"ALL OF A SUDDEN and BY CHANCE, a great being that
always was suddenly decided it was dark" - Genesis
(inspired by the humour of Ankhor 26/8/01)
:God is a solipsist.
PMD
>> > You not only don't believe in God, but you hate God. You hate something
>> you don't believe exists.
>> >
>> > Evidence that God exists <=> life.
>>
>> How can I hate something in which I do not believe?
>
>My point exactly.
What point?
>> Wait, I was using logic
>> there, didn't mean to confuse you.
>
>You confuse logic with sarcasm.
Whereas you're just confused.
>> And your assertions are neither evidence
>> nor proof. And they are far from concrete evidence.
>>
>If life is not evidence for you, then what is? Can you give me an example of
>the type of evidence you are looking for?
That's your job. Not ours. If what you bring does not convince then
you should be looking for something that will.
PMD
was seen to type in alt.christnet.atheism:
>> Well, not only is there no proof, there is no evidence. Theist crap thrown
>> aside. Bring some concrete evidence or proof and we'll talk. Otherwise,
>fuck
>> off.
>
>You not only don't believe in God, but you hate God. You hate something you
>don't believe exists.
???? How can you hate something which does not exist????
>Evidence that God exists <=> life.
Looks like evidence of evolution to me. Where does a god fit into it?
PMD
to type in alt.christnet.atheism:
>On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 04:36:26 -0800, "Tim Eberly" <chek...@elltel.net>
You know. I'm really beginning to like you Christian. It is high time
that other Christians frequented these newsgroups who are capable of
being as honest as you show yourself to be above.
Sure, that may be small plaudits coming from someone who,
self-admittedly, is far less than perfect, but thank you for saying it
nonetheless.
Happy New Year.
Louis Kuhelj
> On 26 Dec 2001 16:26:24 -0800, yar...@aol.com (Louis Kuhelj) was seen
> to type in alt.christnet.atheism:
>
> >"Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<LjvO7.124794$e5.3...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> >> "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >> news:4056b7bd.0111...@posting.google.com...
> >>
> >> > God requires faith. Proof would destroy it. This is why only evidence
> >> > exists and not proof.
> >>
> >> So you admit that there is no proof. Why then would you expect anyone to
> >> belive it?
> >
> >
> >Of course I admit there is no proof. I claim there is evidence, not
> >proof.
> >I expect God to reveal himself to each individual in his own good time
> >because "He is not willing that any should perish, but all should come
> >to repentance." God convinces people. Sometimes it's just a matter of
> >time.
>
> Yeah, but you're a nut, so we would expect you to think something as
> stupid as this.
Thank you.
Louis Kuhelj
Without any explenation for how it came to be or why. You are a
propnent of a meaningless existance.
Louis Kuhelj
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 09:09:14 -0800, Louis Kuhelj wrote:
>
> > "Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote in message
> > news:<MTfX7.32142$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> >> "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >> news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
> >>
> >> > Of course I admit there is no proof. I claim there is evidence, not
> >> > proof.
> >> > I expect God to reveal himself to each individual in his own good
> >> > time because "He is not willing that any should perish, but all
> >> > should come to repentance." God convinces people. Sometimes it's just
> >> > a matter of time.
> >>
> >> Well, I was a christain all my life and deconversted a few years ago.
> >> If God's intent is that all should belive him, he's doing a lousy job
> >> of it.
> >>
> >> (PS: this is also known as the "argument from non-belief", aka: ANB)
> >
> >
> > Ok, I know this is a personal question, but there are so many
> > different folks out there with different definitions of what it means to
> > be a christian that I have to ask it. On what do you base your assertion
> > that you were a Christian? What is your definition of a Chrsitian?
>
> I was a PB (open) fundamentalist. Part of one of the sects that FOUNDED
> the modern fundamentalist movement.
I never heard of this modern fundametalism you're talking about until
now. I also don't know what a PB is. How one could call Christianity
"modern" is a bit of a mystery to me. It is two thousand years
old...no?
Since you used the word "modern" it opens up a slew of questions in my
mind. Evengelicals tend to think of modernism as being anti-God.
>
> I was a True Christian(tm). So much so, I used to think Falwell was a
> liberal (theologically speaking, hey, he comes from a covenant theology
> background and We All Know that's Not Biblical eh?).
What is covenant theology?
>
> So I don't listen when alleged christians tell me I never was christian
> since they're not Real Christians!
>
> <hah>
For all I know, you may still be one or not. I have no way of knowing
unless you answer my previous questions in a maner consistant with
someone who ever was a christian.
Louis Kuhelj
I pale in comparison with many Christians I have known.
Louis Kuhelj
> "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:4056b7bd.01123...@posting.google.com...
> > "Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:<XiuX7.32541$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> > > "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
>
> > > I belived on Jesus Christ for my salvation - I was saved at a church
> camp
> > > when I was (say) 10 or so. I belived Jesus died for my sins, and trusted
> in
> > > that sacrifice to redeem me. I was baptised in water and in the Holy
> Spirit,
> > > and spoke with other toungues (which I can still do, BTW). I also
> attended
> > > our church part-time bible college, and played in the church band for 10
> > > years or so, but that's not the important thing.
> > >
> > > Christian enough for ya?
> >
> > For the most part you answered my question. Some things about your
> > answer, in all honesty, bother me.
> >
> > 1) You said that you believed that you 'trusted in the sacrifice to
> > redeem' you. You didn't say that you believed that that sacrafice
> > already redeemed you.
>
> That is just being picky about my chioce of words - you are looking for
> excuses to belive I was never a christain.
Perhaps I am being picky. It is possible.
>
> > You listed things that you did within an organization as the reasons
> > why I should accept that you were a christian. Although I may be wrong
> > about this, but it leans just a couple degrees toward salvation
> > through something one does.
>
> No, I never belived salvation-by-works. I just listed my church involvment
> to demonstrate that I had nbeen an active christian for some time, and
> accepted as such by a church group.
Ok. Would you say you didn't believe in salvation by works prior to age 10?
>
> > 2) The speaking in tongues bothers me personally. The debate has been
> > going for qute sime time among the charismatic and evengelical circles
> > regarding this issue.
>
> Etc etc. Yes, I am aware of the debate, of course.
>
> > Now then since these 'gifts' lead to disobedience, self
> > centerdness(rather than God-centerdness), is often for self
> > gratification rather then the edification(buidling up) of the church
>
> And so on. Again, you are looking for excuses. Are you willing to state that
> my pentecostalism means that I was not "saved" according to your definition?
> If not, then this is a mere smokescreen.
Frankly, I'm not sure.
>
> > 3)The order in which you described what happened also bothers me. You
> > said that you were baptised in water and Holy Spirit. If you listed
> > those two chronologically, you have it backwards.
>
> That's arguable. In any case - are you going to say that gettinjg these in
> the wrong order means that I was not "saved"?
I don't know.
>
> > One is baptised by the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion
>
> That is a matter of opinion - it's a debatable point. There are plenty of
> christians who disagree with you, or are you willing to state that these are
> "not real christians"?
I don't know.
>
> > My problem, you see, is that I find a lot of discrepencies in your
> > answers that just don't line up with the "Christian DNA."
>
> No, you mean your idea of christian DNA. I'll repeat it again - I belived on
> Jesus and trusted in him for my salvation.
I just don't know. I will leave it to God to judge that.
Don Kresch
Kuhelj) let us all know that:
[snip]
>> Life is evidence that life exists, nothing more. Our existence does
>> not require a creator.
>
> Without any explenation for how it came to be or why. You are a
>propnent of a meaningless existance.
Non sequitur and begging the question. Simply because he doesn't
propose why the universe is does not mean that he proposes that life
is meaningless. And you beg the question that the universe requires a
why.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, EAC Decryption squad
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man
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Louis Kuhelj
> "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
>
>
> > > Well, I was a christain all my life and deconversted a few years ago. If
> > > God's intent is that all should belive him, he's doing a lousy job of
> it.
> > >
> > > (PS: this is also known as the "argument from non-belief", aka: ANB)
> >
> > Ok, I know this is a personal question, but there are so many
> > different folks out there with different definitions of what it means
> > to be a christian that I have to ask it. On what do you base your
> > assertion that you were a Christian? What is your definition of a
> > Chrsitian?
>
> I belived on Jesus Christ for my salvation - I was saved at a church camp
> when I was (say) 10 or so. I belived Jesus died for my sins, and trusted in
> that sacrifice to redeem me. I was baptised in water and in the Holy Spirit,
> and spoke with other toungues (which I can still do, BTW). I also attended
> our church part-time bible college, and played in the church band for 10
> years or so, but that's not the important thing.
>
> Christian enough for ya?
For the most part you answered my question. Some things about your
answer, in all honesty, bother me.
1) You said that you believed that you 'trusted in the sacrifice to
redeem' you. You didn't say that you believed that that sacrafice
already redeemed you.
You listed things that you did within an organization as the reasons
why I should accept that you were a christian. Although I may be wrong
about this, but it leans just a couple degrees toward salvation
through something one does.
2) The speaking in tongues bothers me personally. The debate has been
going for qute sime time among the charismatic and evengelical circles
Now then since these 'gifts' lead to disobedience, self
centerdness(rather than God-centerdness), is often for self
gratification rather then the edification(buidling up) of the church
and excludes loving your God with all of your mind (intellect), due to
often willfull ignorance of why this gift was given in the first
century church, I tend to lean toward the view of the majority of the
evengelicals who rightly dismiss the gift of tongues as evidence of
christianity.
3)The order in which you described what happened also bothers me. You
said that you were baptised in water and Holy Spirit. If you listed
those two chronologically, you have it backwards. I'm not saying that
this applies to you, but there are those folks who insist that they
had to wait to be baptised in order to preserve the order in the new
testament times. The holy spirit was not yet made available by Jesus
Christ while the apostles awaited. As Jesus said, he had to go away
before the conforter(Holy Spirit) was sent. These days, Jesus ascended
into heaven some two thousand years ago and also sent the Holy Spirit
to earth at that time, therefore the order of occurance has changed.
One is baptised by the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion, there is
no waiting and the water baptism is a public acknowledgment of
identifying with Christ's death and ressurection along with being an
act of obedience, because it was commanded.
My problem, you see, is that I find a lot of discrepencies in your
answers that just don't line up with the "Christian DNA."
In answer to your question "Christian enough for ya?". You leave more
questions than you answer with your answer.
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From: yar...@aol.com (Louis Kuhelj)
Newsgroups: tamu.test,alt.atheism
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Paul Murray
> "Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:<XiuX7.32541$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> > "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
> > I belived on Jesus Christ for my salvation - I was saved at a church
camp
> > when I was (say) 10 or so. I belived Jesus died for my sins, and trusted
in
> > that sacrifice to redeem me. I was baptised in water and in the Holy
Spirit,
> > and spoke with other toungues (which I can still do, BTW). I also
attended
> > our church part-time bible college, and played in the church band for 10
> > years or so, but that's not the important thing.
> >
> > Christian enough for ya?
>
> For the most part you answered my question. Some things about your
> answer, in all honesty, bother me.
>
> 1) You said that you believed that you 'trusted in the sacrifice to
> redeem' you. You didn't say that you believed that that sacrafice
> already redeemed you.
That is just being picky about my chioce of words - you are looking for
excuses to belive I was never a christain.
> You listed things that you did within an organization as the reasons
> why I should accept that you were a christian. Although I may be wrong
> about this, but it leans just a couple degrees toward salvation
> through something one does.
No, I never belived salvation-by-works. I just listed my church involvment
to demonstrate that I had nbeen an active christian for some time, and
accepted as such by a church group.
> 2) The speaking in tongues bothers me personally. The debate has been
> going for qute sime time among the charismatic and evengelical circles
> regarding this issue.
Etc etc. Yes, I am aware of the debate, of course.
> Now then since these 'gifts' lead to disobedience, self
> centerdness(rather than God-centerdness), is often for self
> gratification rather then the edification(buidling up) of the church
And so on. Again, you are looking for excuses. Are you willing to state that
my pentecostalism means that I was not "saved" according to your definition?
If not, then this is a mere smokescreen.
> 3)The order in which you described what happened also bothers me. You
> said that you were baptised in water and Holy Spirit. If you listed
> those two chronologically, you have it backwards.
That's arguable. In any case - are you going to say that gettinjg these in
the wrong order means that I was not "saved"?
> One is baptised by the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion
That is a matter of opinion - it's a debatable point. There are plenty of
christians who disagree with you, or are you willing to state that these are
"not real christians"?
> My problem, you see, is that I find a lot of discrepencies in your
> answers that just don't line up with the "Christian DNA."
No, you mean your idea of christian DNA. I'll repeat it again - I belived on
Jesus and trusted in him for my salvation.
__________________________________________________
Spot the difference!
Jer 48:10 A curse on him who is lax in doing the Lord's work! A curse on him
who keeps his sword from bloodshed!
Mk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.
Quran 2 And kill them wherever you find them, ... if they do fight you, then
slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pmurray .
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From: "Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com>
Newsgroups: wa.test,alt.atheism
Subject: cmsg cancel <BeOX7.37404$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>
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Paul Murray
> > Life is evidence that life exists, nothing more. Our existence does
> > not require a creator.
>
> Without any explenation for how it came to be or why. You are a
> propnent of a meaningless existance.
And you are proponent of wishful thinking: "Gee, it would be awful if life
was meaningless! So that must mean that there is a God."
Paul Murray
news:4056b7bd.01123...@posting.google.com...
> > No, I never belived salvation-by-works. I just listed my church
involvment
> > to demonstrate that I had nbeen an active christian for some time, and
> > accepted as such by a church group.
>
> Ok. Would you say you didn't believe in salvation by works prior to age
10?
LOL! You want to know what theological positions I held at age *10* ?!? Why
not discuss the opinions I had at 20 or 30? A far more realistic goal.
> > Are you willing to state that
> > my pentecostalism means that I was not "saved" according to your
definition?
>
> Frankly, I'm not sure.
> > are you going to say that gettinjg these in
> > the wrong order means that I was not "saved"?
>
> I don't know.
> > are you willing to state that these are
> > "not real christians"?
>
> I don't know.
> > I belived on
> > Jesus and trusted in him for my salvation.
>
> I just don't know. I will leave it to God to judge that.
Hmm, ok. I based my criteria on Rom 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be saved", which is pretty inclusive. If you have
other criteria than what the bible says, obviously I don't know what they
are.
How do you know that *you* are saved, redeemed, a real christian?
BTW: here is the quote that started the whole issue, which I'll include so
that if this salvation thing gets resoved we can return to:
>> Of course I admit there is no proof. I claim there is evidence, not
>> proof.
>> I expect God to reveal himself to each individual in his own good time
>> because "He is not willing that any should perish, but all should come
>> to repentance." God convinces people. Sometimes it's just a matter of
>> time.
>
>Well, I was a christain all my life and deconversted a few years ago. If
>God's intent is that all should belive him, he's doing a lousy job of it.
>
>(PS: this is also known as the "argument from non-belief", aka: ANB)
The point remains that plenty of people are not christains, and that God is
doing a very poor job of arranging for their conversions. Its a simple
matter of fact that your "God convinces people", if you mean *all* people,
is flat out wrong.
PMD
to type in alt.christnet.atheism:
>> >> > God requires faith. Proof would destroy it. This is why only evidence
>> >> > exists and not proof.
>> >>
>> >> So you admit that there is no proof. Why then would you expect anyone to
>> >> belive it?
>> >
>> >
>> >Of course I admit there is no proof. I claim there is evidence, not
>> >proof.
>> >I expect God to reveal himself to each individual in his own good time
>> >because "He is not willing that any should perish, but all should come
>> >to repentance." God convinces people. Sometimes it's just a matter of
>> >time.
>>
>> Yeah, but you're a nut, so we would expect you to think something as
>> stupid as this.
>
> Thank you.
That's OK. The pleasure is all mine.
Clyde
> "Paul Murray" <pmu...@nospam.bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:<XiuX7.32541$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
> > "Louis Kuhelj" <yar...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:4056b7bd.01122...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > different folks out there with different definitions of what it
means
> > > to be a christian that I have to ask it. On what do you base your
> > > assertion that you were a Christian? What is your definition of a
> > > Chrsitian?
> >
> >I belived on Jesus Christ for my salvation - I was saved at a church
>>camp when I was (say) 10 or so. I belived Jesus died for my sins, and
>>trusted in that sacrifice to redeem me. I was baptised in water and in
the >>Holy Spirit, and spoke with other toungues (which I can still do,
BTW). I >>also attended our church part-time bible college, and played
in the >>church band for 10 years or so, but that's not the important
thing.
> >
> > Christian enough for ya?
>
> For the most part you answered my question. Some things about your
> answer, in all honesty, bother me.
>
> 1) You said that you believed that you 'trusted in the sacrifice to
> redeem' you.
<Snip>
> 2) The speaking in tongues bothers me personally.
<Snip>
> 3)The order in which you described what happened also bothers me.
<Snip>
> My problem, you see, is that I find a lot of discrepencies in your
> answers that just don't line up with the "Christian DNA."
> In answer to your question "Christian enough for ya?". You leave more
> questions than you answer with your answer.
It should not have taken so many words to say he was never a Good
Christian (GC).
You are full of yourself. Would anyone, besides yourself, qualify for a
GC pin?
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From: fr...@format.err
Newsgroups: tnn.test,alt.atheism
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PMD
to type in alt.christnet.atheism:
>> Life is evidence that life exists, nothing more. Our existence does
>> not require a creator.
>
> Without any explenation for how it came to be or why. You are a
>propnent of a meaningless existance.
And you have a problem with this because _________?
And is your life really meaningless if there is no god? Why? Is your
self-esteem really that low?
Oh, I guess I answered the first question with my second.
PMD
to type in alt.christnet.atheism:
>> > My problem, you see, is that I find a lot of discrepencies in your
>> > answers that just don't line up with the "Christian DNA."
>> > In answer to your question "Christian enough for ya?". You leave more
>> > questions than you answer with your answer.
>>
>> It should not have taken so many words to say he was never a Good
>> Christian (GC).
>>
>> You are full of yourself. Would anyone, besides yourself, qualify for a
>> GC pin?
>
> I pale in comparison with many Christians I have known.
You look awfully wan to a lot of us non-christians too.
Clot...@ieee.org
>On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 04:36:26 -0800, "Tim Eberly" <chek...@elltel.net>
>wrote:
>
>>> > You not only don't believe in God, but you hate God. You hate something
>>> you
>>> > don't believe exists.
>>> >
>>> > Evidence that God exists <=> life.
>
> You are going to have to explain that to me as well,
> and, BTW, I am a christian.
>
>>>
>>> How can I hate something in which I do not believe?
>>
>>My point exactly.
>
> Perhaps you would care to clarify; Exactly what point are
> you making?
>
> The only options that I see, are 1: you are stupid. 2: you
> are dishonest.
> Personally, I suspect both, but I am not unkind enough to say
> that.
>
>>
>>> Wait, I was using logic
>>> there, didn't mean to confuse you.
>>
>>You confuse logic with sarcasm.
>
>
> Or more likely, you failed to notice the switch.
>
>
>>
>>> And your assertions are neither evidence
>>> nor proof. And they are far from concrete evidence.
>>>
>>If life is not evidence for you,
>
> Life is only evidence of life, it is not evidence of
> a creator.
>
>
>>then what is?
>
> Nothing, there is none, Nor is there need for any, except
> by those who are poor in faith.
>
> The atheist does not believe in a creator, and so needs
> no evidence of one,
> The faithful have faith in a creator, and so need no
> evidence.
> Only the poor in faith must needs continually argue their
> belief; as much to convince themselves as to convert
> others.
>
> Perhaps you would be happier as an atheist: I am sure that
> God would forgive you for being honest with yourself, where
> He may be less forgiving of your dishonesty in His name,
>
>
>>Can you give me an example of
>>the type of evidence you are looking for?
>>
> He wants you to show him an empiric link between a creator
> and life, and not merely an asserted one.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>
Hey, we have a Stillsunny replacement here.
Clothaire #1392
Some toasts for the New Year...
"Happiness being a dessert so sweet
May life give you more than you can ever eat."
"May the best day of your past be the worst day of your future."
"May your home always be too small to hold all your friends."
"May you have the hindsight to know where you've been
the foresight to know where you're going and
the insight to know when you're going too far."
"May your strength be in your journey."
...wishing you all a very Happy and Properous New Year!
Clot...@ieee.org
>On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 04:36:26 -0800, "Tim Eberly" <chek...@elltel.net>
>was seen to type in alt.christnet.atheism:
>
>>> > You not only don't believe in God, but you hate God. You hate something
>>> you don't believe exists.
>>> >
>>> > Evidence that God exists <=> life.
>>>
>>> How can I hate something in which I do not believe?
>>
>>My point exactly.
>
>What point?
>
>>> Wait, I was using logic
>>> there, didn't mean to confuse you.
>>
>>You confuse logic with sarcasm.
>
>Whereas you're just confused.
>
>>> And your assertions are neither evidence
>>> nor proof. And they are far from concrete evidence.
>>>
>>If life is not evidence for you, then what is? Can you give me an example of
>>the type of evidence you are looking for?
Reverse BOPping again. Reverse BOP is the refuge of the dishonest fundy.
>
>That's your job. Not ours. If what you bring does not convince then
>you should be looking for something that will.
>
>
>
>--
>>> PMD aa#167
>--
>He that cannot reason is a fool; he that will not is a bigot;
>He that dare not is a slave. - Sir William Drummond c.1770-1828
>:Jeremiah 4:6-7; Proverbs 15:1; Romans 3:10 : Matthew 5:44; Luke 19:27
>:"ALL OF A SUDDEN and BY CHANCE, a great being that
>always was suddenly decided it was dark" - Genesis
>(inspired by the humour of Ankhor 26/8/01)
>:God is a solipsist.
Clothaire #1392
"A fool is born again every minute."
Clot...@ieee.org
Especially with Paul Murray.
Clothaire #1392
"Gods have done a lot in the past, will do a lot in the future, but are
always strangely absent from the present." --Anon