Keeping Wi-Fi Always Within Range

[AL]

I immediately thought of SMS when I saw the headline. But alas it's
not all that it appears...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/technology/personaltech/keeping-wi-fi-always-within-range.html?ref=todayspaper

[Justin]

Now who's trolling?

This is exactly on point.

EVen in New York, wifi is not available enough to not need a personal
3G/4G hotspot.

[AL]

On Thu, 16 May 2013 13:58:25 +0000 (UTC), Justin
<nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>AL wrote on [Thu, 16 May 2013 00:00:45 -0700]:
>> I immediately thought of SMS when I saw the headline. But alas it's
>> not all that it appears...
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/technology/personaltech/keeping-wi-fi-always-within-range.html?ref=todayspaper
>
>Now who's trolling?

Trolling wasn't my intention since I agree with SMS that WiFi is
ubiquitous. It's just that I don't think I take the word quite as
literally. My *personal* feeling is that WiFis are ubiquitous like
McDonalds restaurants are ubiquitous. (As I documented earlier...)

And.... if whining here about whining is absurd as I've pointed out in
the past, is telling someone he's trolling, well, trolling? ... ;)

>This is exactly on point.

I agree. I have thought of just using my antiquated smartphone (with
the 3300 mah battery) as a teather and carrying around something more
modern like my N7 or an iPod Touch.

>EVen in New York, wifi is not available enough to not need a personal
>3G/4G hotspot.

Though I've never been in NY, I do live in a densely populated area
and in my pre-smartphone days I got along just fine on WiFi alone with
my old iPod Touch. On my planned trips to the CA coast my stops (Yuma,
El Centro) have WiFi. And on some trips the places I stayed (outside
Sedona and Greer AZ) had no cell service but did have WiFi.

As always, YMMV.
-------------

BTW I just got a new laptop (it's been 2 years since the last one) and
it sports a touch screen. I bring it up because though I griped about
the Google store, many of the Microsoft store apps (IMO) suck too. (I
know, it's the developers fault.) The Kindle app is so bad I had to
leave the store and download the old Windows 7 version.

[sms]

On 5/16/2013 10:26 AM, AL wrote:

> Trolling wasn't my intention since I agree with SMS that WiFi is
> ubiquitous. It's just that I don't think I take the word quite as
> literally. My *personal* feeling is that WiFis are ubiquitous like
> McDonalds restaurants are ubiquitous. (As I documented earlier...)

LOL, I guess it all depends on how you define ubiquitous. One definition
is "constantly encountered" which is accurate. Another definition is
"being everywhere" which is clearly not the case, yet.

> Though I've never been in NY, I do live in a densely populated area
> and in my pre-smartphone days I got along just fine on WiFi alone with
> my old iPod Touch. On my planned trips to the CA coast my stops (Yuma,
> El Centro) have WiFi. And on some trips the places I stayed (outside
> Sedona and Greer AZ) had no cell service but did have WiFi.

Yep, having Wi-Fi but no 3G or 4G data still occurs with surprising
frequency. But the good thing is that in major cities you'd be hard
pressed to find a place with no Wi-Fi. I recall going to Washington D.C.
and NYC a few years ago before I had a smart phone or tablet. My son had
his Nintendo DSi with him and we were able to use it in NYC and D.C.
just about everywhere to look stuff up (bus routes, museum hours, etc.).
I had a netbook but I wasn't going to lug that around everywhere.

The sign-up for one of those Clearwire services was pretty strange. They
ask you for your home address to determine if there's coverage. Why
would I care about coverage at home? I want coverage in places where
there's no Wi-Fi! That's the problem with the whole concept; in places
where Wi-Fi is available virtually everywhere, such as Silicon Valley,
New York City, Washington D.C., San Francisco, etc., you don't need one
of those Clearwire devices. In rural areas where finding Wi-Fi is more
difficult, there will be no Clearwire service (and likely no Sprint
service if you choose the model with both Clearwire and Sprint coverage).

[AL]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>The sign-up for one of those Clearwire services was pretty strange. They
>ask you for your home address to determine if there's coverage. Why
>would I care about coverage at home?

Perhaps it's a legal thing?

My Cox TV Connect app provides me with free live streaming of my
subscribed cable TV channels but only in my area. It's blocked
elsewhere.

My CNN app offers me free live CNN TV video (anywhere) but I have to
enter my *Cox* user ID and password to get it. Yet I can stream live
CNN channel audio all I want (TuneIn Radio) no credentials required.

All legal mumbo jumbo I imagine... ;)

>I want coverage in places where there's no Wi-Fi!

When I ran out of WiFi coverage in my pre-smartphone days I just
brought up my Peanut Reader and read a book.
(Those were my pre-Kindle days too... ;)

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Thu, 16 May 2013 10:26:59 -0700]:
> On Thu, 16 May 2013 13:58:25 +0000 (UTC), Justin
> <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>AL wrote on [Thu, 16 May 2013 00:00:45 -0700]:
>>> I immediately thought of SMS when I saw the headline. But alas it's
>>> not all that it appears...
>>>
>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/technology/personaltech/keeping-wi-fi-always-within-range.html?ref=todayspaper
>>
>>Now who's trolling?
>
> Trolling wasn't my intention since I agree with SMS that WiFi is
> ubiquitous. It's just that I don't think I take the word quite as
> literally. My *personal* feeling is that WiFis are ubiquitous like
> McDonalds restaurants are ubiquitous. (As I documented earlier...)

mm hmm

> And.... if whining here about whining is absurd as I've pointed out in
> the past, is telling someone he's trolling, well, trolling? ... ;)

Of course it is!

>>This is exactly on point.
>
> I agree. I have thought of just using my antiquated smartphone (with
> the 3300 mah battery) as a teather and carrying around something more
> modern like my N7 or an iPod Touch.

That's an idea... I do it occasionally but the tethering is sometimes
iffy. It can be hard to tell if it's the phone's network connectivity
or the tablet's connection to the phone.

One really nice thing about the latest version of Android's wifi ability
is that it can be told that partiuclar wifi networks are really mobile
data so conserve bandwidth

>>EVen in New York, wifi is not available enough to not need a personal
>>3G/4G hotspot.
>
> Though I've never been in NY, I do live in a densely populated area
> and in my pre-smartphone days I got along just fine on WiFi alone with
> my old iPod Touch. On my planned trips to the CA coast my stops (Yuma,
> El Centro) have WiFi. And on some trips the places I stayed (outside
> Sedona and Greer AZ) had no cell service but did have WiFi.

Indeed, wifi available at planned stops is one thing. Wifi when you need
it is another. I think that was the point of the article.

> BTW I just got a new laptop (it's been 2 years since the last one) and
> it sports a touch screen. I bring it up because though I griped about
> the Google store, many of the Microsoft store apps (IMO) suck too. (I
> know, it's the developers fault.) The Kindle app is so bad I had to
> leave the store and download the old Windows 7 version.

Windows 8 apps are lacking, yeah.

Not only that, it's a fricking laptop, I want more than one app on the screen
ata a time

[Justin]

sms wrote on [Thu, 16 May 2013 11:18:22 -0700]:
> On 5/16/2013 10:26 AM, AL wrote:
>
>> Trolling wasn't my intention since I agree with SMS that WiFi is
>> ubiquitous. It's just that I don't think I take the word quite as
>> literally. My *personal* feeling is that WiFis are ubiquitous like
>> McDonalds restaurants are ubiquitous. (As I documented earlier...)
>
> LOL, I guess it all depends on how you define ubiquitous. One definition
> is "constantly encountered" which is accurate. Another definition is
> "being everywhere" which is clearly not the case, yet.

Another is "being where you need it" which it clearly isn't

> Yep, having Wi-Fi but no 3G or 4G data still occurs with surprising
> frequency. But the good thing is that in major cities you'd be hard
> pressed to find a place with no Wi-Fi. I recall going to Washington D.C.

Apparently not. Did you read the article?

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Thu, 16 May 2013 15:28:03 -0700]:
> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>>The sign-up for one of those Clearwire services was pretty strange. They
>>ask you for your home address to determine if there's coverage. Why
>>would I care about coverage at home?
>
> Perhaps it's a legal thing?

I think it's a roaming thing. They want to make sure you are in a home
market. Many regional carriers do the same thing, US Cellular for example.

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>wifi available at planned stops is one thing.

I don't think anybody is saying that WiFi coverage is better than cell
coverage. Just that WiFi coverage is ubiquitous, and that seems to be
true in the areas that *I* travel. McDonalds and Walmarts also seem
ubiquitous in the areas that I travel but perhaps not in yours... ;)

>Wifi when you need it is another.

*Need* is the key word here. I got along just fine on free WiFi
hotspots before I got my smartphone. But then I am retired. A business
persons *needs* would likely be quite different...

>Windows 8 apps are lacking, yeah.

Microsoft always seems to be behind the curve. Maybe their store will
eventually catch up to the others.

>Not only that, it's a fricking laptop, I want more than one app on the screen
>ata a time

I never missed multiple windows on my tablets so I didn't notice any
difference on the new laptop when W8 is in the tablet mode (Start
screen). But Windows 8 is schizophrenic so you can switch to the
Desktop mode (laptop mode?) and have as many windows as before.

BTW Having a laptop with a touch screen that works like a tablet is a
new novelty for me. One drawback is that my screen keeps getting dirty
with fingerprints. Another is that I keep touching the screen of my
other laptop and wonder why nothing happens... :)

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per AL:

>I never missed multiple windows on my tablets so I didn't notice any
>difference on the new laptop when W8 is in the tablet mode (Start
>screen). But Windows 8 is schizophrenic so you can switch to the
>Desktop mode (laptop mode?) and have as many windows as before.

I was all in a snit over the even-more-proprietary-than-usual power/USB
connector on my Samsung 10.1" Note.

Still am...

But my moral indignation has been mitigated a good bit since it dawned
on me that the 10.1 does multiple sizable concurrent windows.

I don't think I'd want to go back to single-window on something the size
of this tablet. On my 5" Note, I don't see multi-windows as
practical... but on 10", I call it a killer feature.
--
Pete Cresswell

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Fri, 17 May 2013 10:08:36 -0700]:
> Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>wifi available at planned stops is one thing.
>
> I don't think anybody is saying that WiFi coverage is better than cell
> coverage.

No, the original claim was that it's available wherever you want it

> true in the areas that *I* travel. McDonalds and Walmarts also seem
> ubiquitous in the areas that I travel but perhaps not in yours... ;)

I'm miles from a Mcdonalds. We live near the wally world in town though

>>Wifi when you need it is another.
>
> *Need* is the key word here. I got along just fine on free WiFi
> hotspots before I got my smartphone. But then I am retired. A business
> persons *needs* would likely be quite different...

If it's not available where you want it, it's certainly not going to be
available where you need it

>>Windows 8 apps are lacking, yeah.
>
> Microsoft always seems to be behind the curve. Maybe their store will
> eventually catch up to the others.

Maybe... all the attention is on the flash in the pans that are weak sauce
tablets. Tablets may get there eventually, but they are underpowered

>>Not only that, it's a fricking laptop, I want more than one app on the screen
>>ata a time
>
> I never missed multiple windows on my tablets so I didn't notice any
> difference on the new laptop when W8 is in the tablet mode (Start
> screen). But Windows 8 is schizophrenic so you can switch to the
> Desktop mode (laptop mode?) and have as many windows as before.

That's true, but with Microsoft's focus on the W8 apps, it's like they
don't understand what their users do.

> BTW Having a laptop with a touch screen that works like a tablet is a
> new novelty for me. One drawback is that my screen keeps getting dirty
> with fingerprints. Another is that I keep touching the screen of my
> other laptop and wonder why nothing happens... :)

I hate the fingerprints on my non touch screen, let alone the devices I have
with a touch screen. And cleaning those touch screens can often make things
happen that you didn't want.

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>Tablets may get there eventually, but they are underpowered

I think it's a balancing act.

Want more processing power? Faster graphics? Higher resolution?

That all means more battery power is needed which for the same battery
longevity will require a bigger battery, which requires more weight
and a larger size case and adds more heat.

I recently looked at the MS Surface Pro, reportedly a higher powered
tablet. Guess what? Way too big and heavy for a tablet (IMO) and it
was running very warm just sitting there doing nothing.

But, as you say, they may get there eventually.

>with Microsoft's focus on the W8 apps, it's like they
>don't understand what their users do.

I suppose MS is trying to emulate the success of the Apple store.

>cleaning those touch screens can often make things
>happen that you didn't want.

You mean you clean the screen when the device is on? Well then, let me
suggest that you turn it off before you clean it. Besides not making
strange things happen, it's easier to see the fingerprints... ;)

[nob...@nada.com]

On Fri, 17 May 2013 13:34:57 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid>
wrote:

>Per AL:
>>I never missed multiple windows on my tablets so I didn't notice any
>>difference on the new laptop when W8 is in the tablet mode (Start
>>screen). But Windows 8 is schizophrenic so you can switch to the
>>Desktop mode (laptop mode?) and have as many windows as before.
>
>I was all in a snit over the even-more-proprietary-than-usual power/USB
>connector on my Samsung 10.1" Note.
>
>Still am...

Ditto for my ASUS Transformer. I'm never buying another tablet with a
proprietary charging port.

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Fri, 17 May 2013 15:10:19 -0700]:
>>cleaning those touch screens can often make things
>>happen that you didn't want.
>
> You mean you clean the screen when the device is on? Well then, let me
> suggest that you turn it off before you clean it. Besides not making
> strange things happen, it's easier to see the fingerprints... ;)

You mean you'd turn your laptop off, or your desktop off, to clean the screen?

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>AL wrote

>> You mean you clean the screen when the device is on?

>You mean you'd turn your laptop off,

Yes, I turn my laptop off (standby) to clean the screen. Like all my
other touchscreen devices the new laptop is instant-on.

>or your desktop off,

And my non-touchscreen devices don't quickly get covered in
fingerprints so (if I plan carefully) I can clean the screen before
the session starts.

Or maybe I should just stop eating potato chips while surfing... ;)

>to clean the screen?

Question: How do you know if a blond's been using your laptop?

Answer: From the white-out left on the screen...

...badoom tsss...


References: But if you need them the joke probably failed...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=joke%20drums

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wite-Out

[AL]

AL <AL5793...@AL2344255540589.com> wrote:

>Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>>Not only that, it's a fricking laptop, I want more than one app on the screen
>>ata a time

Apparently in W8 Tablet mode you can *kind of* get 2 apps on the
screen at the same time.

"12. Run two apps side by side

Windows 8 apps are what Microsoft calls "immersive" applications,
which basically means they run full-screen - but there is a way to
view two at once. Swipe from the left and the last app you were using
will turn into a thumbnail; drop this and one app displays in a
sidebar pane while your current app takes the rest of the screen. And
you can then swap these by swiping again."

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/software/operating-systems/50-windows-8-tips-tricks-and-secrets-1028220/2#articleContent


But as I mentioned before Windows 8 is schizophrenic so you can switch
to the Desktop mode and have as many windows as before.

Perhaps I'll know more about W8 when I get to step 50... ;)

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Sat, 18 May 2013 12:42:47 -0700]:
> AL <AL5793...@AL2344255540589.com> wrote:
>
>>Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>>Not only that, it's a fricking laptop, I want more than one app on the screen
>>>ata a time
>
> Apparently in W8 Tablet mode you can *kind of* get 2 apps on the
> screen at the same time.

yeah, kind of...

however, I usually have about 10 visible windows at a time

On a 24 inch monitor, the whole usage model of the modern UI is broken

> But as I mentioned before Windows 8 is schizophrenic so you can switch
> to the Desktop mode and have as many windows as before.

true, the undiscoverability of how to shut the system down is also a major
issue.

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

> I usually have about 10 visible windows at a time

W8 Desktop will hold your 10 visible windows just fine.

>On a 24 inch monitor, the whole usage model of the modern UI is broken

I can see where the W8 apps store system might not work well for geeks
such as yourself (meant as a compliment). But for the average user
(think iPad) it probably is an easier UI to use. Especially for
newbies.

>the undiscoverability of how to shut the system down is also a major
>issue.

I would call the W8 shut down procedure perhaps a poor UI software
design, but hardly a MAJOR ISSUE... 8-O

Virtually all consumer computers come with a physical off button.
Those who use their new computer to only live in the W8 (iPad like)
Start screen may go months or longer before even needing to find how
to shut down. By then they will have probably found it by accident...

But all is not lost, even for geeks. I found this just for you.
Enjoy... ;)

http://mywindows8.org/add-shutdown-button-in-windows-8/

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 11:54:15 -0700]:
> Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>> I usually have about 10 visible windows at a time
>
> W8 Desktop will hold your 10 visible windows just fine.

yes, with no indication of how to even open a single one of them.

>>On a 24 inch monitor, the whole usage model of the modern UI is broken
>
> I can see where the W8 apps store system might not work well for geeks
> such as yourself (meant as a compliment). But for the average user
> (think iPad) it probably is an easier UI to use. Especially for
> newbies.

You've fallen into the same trap as Microsoft, the average user also uses
applications at work on their work PC that often requires multiple windows
open and visible

>>the undiscoverability of how to shut the system down is also a major
>>issue.
>
> I would call the W8 shut down procedure perhaps a poor UI software
> design, but hardly a MAJOR ISSUE... 8-O

Sure, if you have to google how to turn your machine off, or even how to
launch an application... that's a major issue

The first time you get dropped into the desktop, you have NO IDEA how to
open an app

> Virtually all consumer computers come with a physical off button.

Which users have been educated against using except as a last ditch effort
for the last 18 years

> Those who use their new computer to only live in the W8 (iPad like)
> Start screen may go months or longer before even needing to find how
> to shut down. By then they will have probably found it by accident...

How many people leave their computer always on? sleep drains the battery too

> But all is not lost, even for geeks. I found this just for you.
> Enjoy... ;)
>
> http://mywindows8.org/add-shutdown-button-in-windows-8/

you mean you had to google how to shut it down? hmm

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 11:54:15 -0700]:

>> W8 Desktop will hold your 10 visible windows just fine.
>
>yes, with no indication of how to even open a single one of them.

If there are 10 visible windows already on the desktop, as indicated
above, then they would all be available by simply touching their icon
on the task bar.

But you said 'open' them so I ASSume that you mean the missing desktop
Start button in W8. Yes I agree that's a big pain. Maybe even a MAJOR
PAIN... ;) There are lots of third party work-arounds though. I'm
going to wait and see what 8.1 brings. There are rumors. For now I
just temporarily pinned a shortcut to the taskbar that points to the
desktop folder.

>You've fallen into the same trap as Microsoft,

I've fallen into the MS trap since DOS 5... :)

> the average user also uses
>applications at work on their work PC

I can't imagine any reputable business using the Microsoft Store for
any serious business software, can you?

> that often requires multiple windows
>open and visible

And most prior Windows business (desktop) software should work just
fine in W8, be it multiple windows, home or work, just as before...

>The first time you get dropped into the desktop, you have NO IDEA how to
>open an app

"NO IDEA"? Was it a big learning curve for you... ;) There was
lots of new stuff to learn for me, especially the new clicks and
swipes and hidden menus. (I especially like the one you get by
right-clicking the lower left corner.)

>> Virtually all consumer computers come with a physical off button.
>
>Which users have been educated against using except as a last ditch effort
>for the last 18 years

These days that's and old wives tale. I guess you've been wasting a
lot of time doing shutdowns/reboots over the years, huh. Gosh no
wonder you have your panties in a wad over the hard to find W8 shut
down thing... ;)

>How many people leave their computer always on?

I don't know. I couldn't find any surveys on Google. Lots of reasons
given though, both pro and con. I would say it's definitely a YMMV
thing.

>sleep drains the battery too

I like to use sleep on this new laptop because that makes it instant
on just like my N7. But it is a desktop replacement and seldom leaves
the house so there is no battery problem for me. YMMV.

And as you know the 'off' button is easy programmed (sleep, hibernate,
shut down, battery or plugged in) so everyone's YMMV is covered well.

>you mean you had to google how to shut it down? hmm

I find it faster to use Google than the W8 help file... ;)

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 15:51:39 -0700]:
> Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 11:54:15 -0700]:
>
> But you said 'open' them so I ASSume that you mean the missing desktop
> Start button in W8. Yes I agree that's a big pain. Maybe even a MAJOR
> PAIN... ;) There are lots of third party work-arounds though. I'm
> going to wait and see what 8.1 brings. There are rumors. For now I
> just temporarily pinned a shortcut to the taskbar that points to the
> desktop folder.

I use start 8 myself, but that was after I tried some other solutions

However, anyone used to Win95 through 7 would expect to be able to use
the start button to bring up a menu of apps.
That ain;t there

>> the average user also uses
>>applications at work on their work PC
>
> I can't imagine any reputable business using the Microsoft Store for
> any serious business software, can you?

Nope. However, there are modern UI versions of office coming.

>>The first time you get dropped into the desktop, you have NO IDEA how to
>>open an app
>
> "NO IDEA"? Was it a big learning curve for you... ;) There was

Right, no idea.

> lots of new stuff to learn for me, especially the new clicks and
> swipes and hidden menus. (I especially like the one you get by
> right-clicking the lower left corner.)

sure, you can stumble across things. However, with no visual cues to even
link to previous versions, just the support calls alone I will be fielding
from family who "upgrade" are going to be insane.

It's hard enough getting them to discern between the start button, the task
bar and the system tray. Add in right and left clicking and it's insane.

Swipes don't work unless you have a special piece of hardware, be it a touch
screen or pad designed for it

>>> Virtually all consumer computers come with a physical off button.
>>
>>Which users have been educated against using except as a last ditch effort
>>for the last 18 years
>
> These days that's and old wives tale. I guess you've been wasting a

No, it's not. You should always allow the system to shut itself down

> lot of time doing shutdowns/reboots over the years, huh. Gosh no

I shut down every day, sleep is tempermental and hibernate is a bitch.

Plus, you have to run updates

>>sleep drains the battery too
>
> I like to use sleep on this new laptop because that makes it instant
> on just like my N7. But it is a desktop replacement and seldom leaves
> the house so there is no battery problem for me. YMMV.
>
> And as you know the 'off' button is easy programmed (sleep, hibernate,
> shut down, battery or plugged in) so everyone's YMMV is covered well.

yep, except sleep has a habit of not restarting properly on certain hardware
it also has a habit of waking if the mouse moves a mm

>>you mean you had to google how to shut it down? hmm
>
> I find it faster to use Google than the W8 help file... ;)

It shouldn't be necessary to do either.

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 15:51:39 -0700]:

>However, anyone used to Win95 through 7 would expect to be able to use
>the start button to bring up a menu of apps.
>That ain;t there

I think just about everyone I've read (and me too) agrees that leaving
the Start button off the W8 desktop was a mistake.

>The first time you get dropped into the desktop, you have NO IDEA how to
>open an app

Have you never opened an app in W7 by double clicking its desktop
icon? I'm surprised that didn't occur to you with the W8 Desktop.

>sure, you can stumble across things. However, with no visual cues to even
>link to previous versions, just the support calls alone I will be fielding
>from family who "upgrade" are going to be insane.

You're a W8 support person??

>It's hard enough getting them to discern between the start button, the task
>bar and the system tray.

Just keep those clueless types on the W8 Microsoft Store side. Have
them unpin the Desktop icon from the Start screen. Problem solved. I
mean isn't that new UI designed for the iPad crowd?

> Add in right and left clicking and it's insane.

All recent Windows OSs have had right and left clicking up the wazoo.
Every thing you clicked had a different context menu. Not much change
in W8 there.

>Swipes don't work unless you have a special piece of hardware, be it a touch
>screen or pad designed for it

True. So instead of swiping left to get the Charms you just stick the
mouse in the upper right hand corner. Big whoop. Unless someone's a
complete idiot, they do it a few times and it's remembered.

>I shut down every day, sleep is tempermental and hibernate is a bitch.

Prior to this laptop I've used hibernation since it became available
in the OS with no problems that I could attribute to the practice.

However if I were to leave my computer on all the time during the day
as you apparently do I likely would shut it down at night also.

But If you popped into your playroom every now and then just to use
the laptop for a half hour or so you might do as I do... ;)

>Plus, you have to run updates

Update re-booting once a week isn't a big deal on this laptop. It
downloads updates in the background or while sleeping, then waits
until I'm through with the next session and re-boots when I hit the
off button and then goes back to sleep.

>sleep has a habit of not restarting properly on certain hardware

So I've read. Time will tell on this new laptop. I'll report back if
any problems occur.

>it also has a habit of waking if the mouse moves a mm

Well yes the mouse will wake it. But that would be a human problem
wouldn't it. One that's easily solved...

>> I find it faster to use Google than the W8 help file... ;)
>
>It shouldn't be necessary to do either.

Did you see all the new gadgetry on the recently released Samsung
Galaxy S4 smartphone? Do you think the S3 folks will know how to work
all that new stuff just by intuition?

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 19:32:19 -0700]:

> Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>The first time you get dropped into the desktop, you have NO IDEA how to
>>open an app
>
> Have you never opened an app in W7 by double clicking its desktop
> icon? I'm surprised that didn't occur to you with the W8 Desktop.

Yes, that works great for the two icons on the desktop on a fresh install.
IE and explorer.

Not every app has a desktop icon, so even on my upgrade install I could
only launch firefox, chrome and IE.

How do I launch Word? How do I launch any other install app?

>>sure, you can stumble across things. However, with no visual cues to even
>>link to previous versions, just the support calls alone I will be fielding
>>from family who "upgrade" are going to be insane.
>
> You're a W8 support person??

for friends and family, of course.

>>It's hard enough getting them to discern between the start button, the task
>>bar and the system tray.
>
> Just keep those clueless types on the W8 Microsoft Store side. Have
> them unpin the Desktop icon from the Start screen. Problem solved. I

Except they all want to use their existing apps that aren't modern
UI. So they have to use the desktop

>> Add in right and left clicking and it's insane.
>
> All recent Windows OSs have had right and left clicking up the wazoo.
> Every thing you clicked had a different context menu. Not much change
> in W8 there.

True, however in a support call, after the first time you mention they need
to right click instead if left click, assuming they listen to what you are
saying a do right click... every single click after that they will ask
"left or right"...

> True. So instead of swiping left to get the Charms you just stick the
> mouse in the upper right hand corner. Big whoop. Unless someone's a
> complete idiot, they do it a few times and it's remembered.

You give people too much credit...

>>I shut down every day, sleep is tempermental and hibernate is a bitch.
>
> Prior to this laptop I've used hibernation since it became available
> in the OS with no problems that I could attribute to the practice.
>
> However if I were to leave my computer on all the time during the day
> as you apparently do I likely would shut it down at night also.
>
> But If you popped into your playroom every now and then just to use
> the laptop for a half hour or so you might do as I do... ;)

I am using the computer most of the time, so...

>>it also has a habit of waking if the mouse moves a mm
>
> Well yes the mouse will wake it. But that would be a human problem
> wouldn't it. One that's easily solved...

not if the table gets a gust of wind or someone walks nearby it

>>> I find it faster to use Google than the W8 help file... ;)
>>
>>It shouldn't be necessary to do either.
>
> Did you see all the new gadgetry on the recently released Samsung
> Galaxy S4 smartphone? Do you think the S3 folks will know how to work
> all that new stuff just by intuition?

Is the fundamental interaction method completely changed?

[AL]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 02:39:04 +0000 (UTC), Justin
<nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 19:32:19 -0700]:

>Not every app has a desktop icon, so even on my upgrade install I could
>only launch firefox, chrome and IE.

You have a W8 upgrade? Ah. There's likely our differences.

My laptop came with W8 installed so I had to freshly install all my W7
software and most of the installations put icons on the desktop for
me.

However this10 year old Agent newsreader of mine doesn't install
anymore. So I just saved its folder from my W7 laptop and pasted it
into this W8 laptop. Then I made a shortcut of the Agent.exe file and
pinned it to the taskbar. Works great. Frankly I'm just glad its
working in yet another new version of the Windows OS... ;)

>How do I launch Word? How do I launch any other install app?

You really don't know? You're not just complaining?

Well on the chance that I can help here's how I did it with some of my
apps.

Go to the All Apps screen. Word should be listed there. Right click it
and you should see an icon at the screens bottom that says "open file
location". Click that and you will be taken to the Desktop in Windows
Explorer to a location that has the execution file that starts Word.
(Likely it is a shortcut but if not IMO it would be wise to make one.)
Then just Copy the shortcut and Paste it to the Desktop. (Or drag and
drop it.)

I've found that if an app in the All Apps screen won't run on the
Desktop then you probably won't see the "open file location" icon. But
many of them do and can be copied to the desktop.

I discovered this by messing around (intuition?) so there may be a
better way. Have you checked Google... ;)

>> You're a W8 support person??
>
>for friends and family, of course.

Ah. My mistake. Thought you were talking about your job.

>> Just keep those clueless types on the W8 Microsoft Store side. Have
>> them unpin the Desktop icon from the Start screen. Problem solved. I
>
>Except they all want to use their existing apps that aren't modern
>UI. So they have to use the desktop

Yes, all that silly stuff about erasing the desktop icon changes when
they know where you live... :)

>> Well yes the mouse will wake it. But that would be a human problem
>> wouldn't it. One that's easily solved...
>
>not if the table gets a gust of wind or someone walks nearby it

Unplug the mouse? Put it in a box? Store it behind the tower? Get a
trackball? Close the window? Fence off the work area? Etc.

>> Did you see all the new gadgetry on the recently released Samsung
>> Galaxy S4 smartphone? Do you think the S3 folks will know how to work
>> all that new stuff just by intuition?
>
>Is the fundamental interaction method completely changed?

I don't know. You're saying my analogy failed again... :(

[nob...@nada.com]

On Sun, 19 May 2013 19:32:19 -0700, AL
<AL5793...@AL2344255540589.com> wrote:

> Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 15:51:39 -0700]:
>
>>However, anyone used to Win95 through 7 would expect to be able to use
>>the start button to bring up a menu of apps.
>>That ain;t there
>
>I think just about everyone I've read (and me too) agrees that leaving
>the Start button off the W8 desktop was a mistake.

Easy enough to get it back with StartIsBack add on. You can also get
it to boot into desktop mode so it looks just like Win 7, but then why
bother to go to Win8. I tried Win 8 on my laptop and it kept losing
the CD/DVD drive, which apparently in unusual. I restored a backup of
my boot partition and it's back to Win 7. Maybe Win 9 will be a
winner.

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 21:04:35 -0700]:
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 02:39:04 +0000 (UTC), Justin
> <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 19:32:19 -0700]:
>
>>Not every app has a desktop icon, so even on my upgrade install I could
>>only launch firefox, chrome and IE.
>
> You have a W8 upgrade? Ah. There's likely our differences.

I have done both, though I didn't buy anything with it preinstalled

>>How do I launch Word? How do I launch any other install app?
>
> You really don't know? You're not just complaining?
>
> Well on the chance that I can help here's how I did it with some of my
> apps.
>
> Go to the All Apps screen. Word should be listed there. Right click it

I guess you have missed my point.

If you are on the desktop, how do you get to the All Apps screen?
There are zero visual clues

In fact, it took me, someone who has used windows since 3.11,
at least 15 minutes
to even figure out that the windows key did anything, since I have never
found a use for that key before.

> Yes, all that silly stuff about erasing the desktop icon changes when
> they know where you live... :)

And getting annoyed with them for doing what they think you told them,
instead of what you told them, is frowned upon

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 21:04:35 -0700]:

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>>>AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 19:32:19 -0700]:

>>>How do I launch Word? How do I launch any other install app?

>I guess you have missed my point.

Boy did I ever miss your point. You said "how do I launch Word" from
the desktop so I told you. I just gotta learn Justin-speak better.
Like the desktop you complain about, you leave no visual clues... ;)

>If you are on the desktop, how do you get to the All Apps screen?
>There are zero visual clues

But it's so easy to learn. And once learned its easily remembered. Why
clutter the screen with visual clues that are no longer needed after
the learning curve is completed?

>In fact, it took me, someone who has used windows since 3.11,
>at least 15 minutes
>to even figure out that the windows key did anything, since I have never
>found a use for that key before.

Probably because you're too proud to just read the instructions.

Here's a few more. Once you *learn* the ones you use often they're
real time savers:

Win : switch between the Start screen and the last-running Windows 8
app
Win + C : displays the Charms: the Settings, Devices, Share and
Search options
Win + D : launches the desktop
Win + E : launches Explorer
Win + F : opens the File Search pane
Win + H : opens the Share pane
Win + I : opens Settings
Win + K : opens the Devices pane
Win + L : locks your PC
Win + M : minimises the current Explorer or Internet Explorer
window (works in the full-screen IE, too)
Win + O : toggles device orientation lock on and off
Win + P : switch your display to a second display or projector
Win + Q : open the App Search pane
Win + R : opens the Run box
Win + U : open the Ease of Access Centre
Win + V : cycle through toasts (notifications)
Win + W : search your system settings (type POWER for links to all
power-related options, say)
Win + X : displays a text menu of useful Windows tools and applets
Win + Z : displays the right-click context menu when in a
full-screen app
Win + + : launch Magnifier and zoom in
Win + - : zoom out
Win + , : Aero peek at the desktop
Win + Enter : launch Narrator
Win + PgUp : move the current screen to the left-hand monitor
Win + PgDn : move the current screen to the right-hand monitor
Win + PrtSc : capture the current screen and save it to your
Pictures folder
Win + Tab : switch between running apps

[AL]

nob...@nada.com wrote

> AL<AL5793...@AL2344255540589.com> wrote:

>>I think just about everyone I've read (and me too) agrees that leaving
>>the Start button off the W8 desktop was a mistake.
>
>Easy enough to get it back with StartIsBack add on.

Yes there are a lot of those Start Buttons available for download. I
may try one eventually. For now I am learning the system as it came.
That way I won't have to futz around if I use a
strange W8 computer... ;)

>You can also get it to boot into desktop mode

If you use 'sleep' or 'hibernate it always comes up in the desktop (or
wherever you left it) so that's not a problem for me. But even if I
booted normally I don't find one tile click on the Start screen a big
effort to get to the desktop.

> so it looks just like Win 7, but then why bother to go to Win8.

Because W8 is all you can get when you buy a new laptop off the shelf.
(Though if I had a choice I would still have taken W8 just for
something new to play with.)

> I tried Win 8 on my laptop and it kept losing
>the CD/DVD drive, which apparently in unusual. I restored a backup of
>my boot partition and it's back to Win 7. Maybe Win 9 will be a
>winner.

One nice thing about buying W8 already installed is that all the stuff
works. Though it's not all roses...there's the crapware to deal
with... ;)

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Mon, 20 May 2013 10:22:13 -0700]:
> Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 21:04:35 -0700]:
>
> Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>>>AL wrote on [Sun, 19 May 2013 19:32:19 -0700]:
>
>>>>How do I launch Word? How do I launch any other install app?
>
>>I guess you have missed my point.
>
> Boy did I ever miss your point. You said "how do I launch Word" from
> the desktop so I told you. I just gotta learn Justin-speak better.
> Like the desktop you complain about, you leave no visual clues... ;)

I don't have a 100 million user install base

>>If you are on the desktop, how do you get to the All Apps screen?
>>There are zero visual clues
>
> But it's so easy to learn. And once learned its easily remembered. Why
> clutter the screen with visual clues that are no longer needed after
> the learning curve is completed?

I have a great reason... about 5% of the time on my current PC my keyboard
doesn't respond. So that vaunted window key doesn't do didly

> Probably because you're too proud to just read the instructions.

What instructions? There were none


I got no manual with my Win8 download. (yes, bought and paid for from MS)

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>AL wrote

>about 5% of the time on my current PC my keyboard
>doesn't respond. So that vaunted window key doesn't do didly

Time to buy a new keyboard, they're cheap.

>> Probably because you're too proud to just read the instructions.
>
>What instructions? There were none
>I got no manual with my Win8 download.

Join the crowd.

I got a single sheet quick start guide in the new laptop's box.

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Mon, 20 May 2013 15:25:10 -0700]:
> Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>AL wrote
>
>>about 5% of the time on my current PC my keyboard
>>doesn't respond. So that vaunted window key doesn't do didly
>
> Time to buy a new keyboard, they're cheap.

This is a new keyboard.

[tlvp]

On Mon, 20 May 2013 17:47:01 +0000 (UTC), Justin wrote:

> ... my keyboard
> doesn't respond. So that vaunted window key doesn't do didly ...

For those times when only the Windows Key doesn't respond, or those other
times when, like on older ThinkPads, there *is* no Windows Key, the combo
[Ctrl]-[Esc] will emulate a [Win] keystroke. Or did, on that ThinkPad :-) .

And, fwiw, I began by calling what you guys are calling the Windows Key the
Start key (same graphic, more or less, as the Win 95 Start-button icon).

Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>AL wrote on [Mon, 20 May 2013 15:25:10 -0700]:

>> Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>>>about 5% of the time on my current PC my keyboard
>>>doesn't respond. So that vaunted window key doesn't do didly
>>
>> Time to buy a new keyboard, they're cheap.
>
>This is a new keyboard.

Well, I was able to help you figure out how to get your Word and other
apps onto your W8 Desktop so tell me more and maybe I can help you fix
your keyboard problems too... ;)

[Justin]

For some reason windows doesn't recognise USB keyboards sometimes.
A reboot is required.

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>about 5% of the time on my current PC my keyboard
>doesn't respond. So that vaunted window key doesn't do didly

>This is a new keyboard.

>For some reason windows doesn't recognise USB keyboards sometimes.
>A reboot is required.

Did this problem start happening just since you upgraded to W8?

[nob...@nada.com]

That list is your idea of what's easy to learn and remember?

[nob...@nada.com]

I meant to say "is not usual". Losing the CD/DVD drive is a common
Win8 issue. And no, I'm not replacing a one year old laptop so I can
use Win8.

[Justin]

No, this happens in windows 7, too

[AL]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:21:05 -0700, nob...@nada.com wrote:

>On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:22:13 -0700, AL

I don't use them all. And I use the obvious intended mnemonics to
remember the ones I do use. It really is much easier and faster than
moving the mouse around. And I've found that it often saves effort
over using gestures on a touch screen too.

Give it a try, you may like it... ;)

They're not all that hard to remember:

Win + C harms
Win + D esktop
Win + Q uestion (for search)
Etc...

W8 developers seem to have forgotten a Windows key combination to go
to the All Apps screen. So I just use Win + Q (search) and then hit
the escape key. Where there's a will there's a way... ;)

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>about 5% of the time on my current [W8] PC my keyboard

>doesn't respond. So that vaunted window key doesn't do didly

>This is a new keyboard.

>windows doesn't recognise USB keyboards sometimes.
>A reboot is required.

> this happens in windows 7, too

Do you have a PS/2 connector?

[AL]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:24:47 -0700, nob...@nada.com wrote:

>On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:22:14 -0700, AL

> I tried Win 8 on my laptop and it kept losing
>the CD/DVD drive, which apparently in unusual. I restored a backup of
>my boot partition and it's back to Win 7. Maybe Win 9 will be a
>winner.

>>One nice thing about buying W8 already installed is that all the stuff
>>works. Though it's not all roses...there's the crapware to deal
>>with... ;)

>I meant to say "is not usual". Losing the CD/DVD drive is a common
>Win8 issue.

From what I read losing the drive is a common W8 *download* problem.
Not a problem in the factory installed version. And you apparently
already are a beneficiary of a factory installed W7 which you restored
from your recovery partition. And your factory installed W7 works
fine, right?

As I said, when you buy the OS installed, it usually just works... ;)

Actually I'm kind of surprised at how well the downloaded W8 versions
do work considering how many thousands of different machine variations
its expected to run in. That's why Apple stuff 'just works'. They
control the hardware as well as the software.

> And no, I'm not replacing a one year old laptop so I can use Win8.

Why did you even pay the hefty W8 upgrade price after only one year?

I replace my gadgets because I *want* them, not need them. Heck my 5
year old EeePC Linux powered Target bought impulse buy netbook will do
all I "need".

I told the salesman at Best Buy when I bought this latest new toy
(laptop) that I'd hate myself in the morning. But you know
what...turns out I really didn't... ;)

As always, YMMV.

[Justin]

no, nor does my computer have a PS/2 port

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Tue, 21 May 2013 09:58:45 -0700]:

> On Tue, 21 May 2013 03:24:47 -0700, nob...@nada.com wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 20 May 2013 10:22:14 -0700, AL
>
>> I tried Win 8 on my laptop and it kept losing
>>the CD/DVD drive, which apparently in unusual. I restored a backup of
>>my boot partition and it's back to Win 7. Maybe Win 9 will be a
>>winner.
>
>>>One nice thing about buying W8 already installed is that all the stuff
>>>works. Though it's not all roses...there's the crapware to deal
>>>with... ;)
>
>>I meant to say "is not usual". Losing the CD/DVD drive is a common
>>Win8 issue.
>
> From what I read losing the drive is a common W8 *download* problem.
> Not a problem in the factory installed version. And you apparently
> already are a beneficiary of a factory installed W7 which you restored
> from your recovery partition. And your factory installed W7 works
> fine, right?

I don't have anything that has a factory installed anything

> As I said, when you buy the OS installed, it usually just works... ;)

Until it doesn't

> Actually I'm kind of surprised at how well the downloaded W8 versions
> do work considering how many thousands of different machine variations
> its expected to run in. That's why Apple stuff 'just works'. They
> control the hardware as well as the software.

Yep, Apple's line of "hardware older than 2 years is unuspported" works
wonders

>> And no, I'm not replacing a one year old laptop so I can use Win8.
>
> Why did you even pay the hefty W8 upgrade price after only one year?

I imagine if his W7 box is only just a year old the W8 price would have
been 14.99

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>I don't have anything that has a factory installed anything

I don't have any keyboard problems. (Or drive problems.)

>I imagine if his W7 box is only just a year old the W8 price would have
>been 14.99

If so. it appears that he got his moneys worth....

[nob...@nada.com]

I had a nonprofit corp Win 7 ($12) which has software assurance that
gives free upgrades to new versions, so it cost me nothing to try it.

[nob...@nada.com]

Actually it was free with the MS software assurance program.

[nob...@nada.com]

I can't argue that I didn't get what I (didn't) pay for.

[AL]

nob...@nada.com wrote:

>Losing the CD/DVD drive is a common Win8 issue.

My point was simply that you don't usually run into that problem on a
factory install. The computer manufacturer has matched the MS OS to
his machine using the correct (often custom) drivers. And then tests
the OS-machine combination together before putting it on the market.

Whereas when MS tries to squeeze the OS into thousands of different
machines there's often incompatibilities as you had and Justin has.
Sometimes you can find the problem yourself (like finding a new driver
on the peripheral manufacturers website), and sometimes not.

I've had the same experience many times over with various free Linux
distros I've downloaded and installed on some of my old computers over
the years. Making the peripherals work was usually the number one
challenge for me. The WiFi was a close second.

>it [W8 upgrade] was free with the MS software assurance program.

I'm glad to hear that you're out no cash. Perhaps with a little more
effort you could make W8 work on that laptop. Depends on how much time
you want to use. I put hours into that Linux stuff but it was a hobby
so I was enjoying myself. And like you I had MS recovery disks when I
got a poor install and couldn't fix it... ;)

[nob...@nada.com]

On Tue, 21 May 2013 21:39:11 -0700, AL
<AL5793...@AL2344255540589.com> wrote:

>nob...@nada.com wrote:
>
>>Losing the CD/DVD drive is a common Win8 issue.
>
>My point was simply that you don't usually run into that problem on a
>factory install. The computer manufacturer has matched the MS OS to
>his machine using the correct (often custom) drivers. And then tests
>the OS-machine combination together before putting it on the market.

The problem occurs on upgrades and fresh installs of Win 8. It's
unrealistic of MS to think people will buy new hardware just to get
Win 8.

The problem is that Win 7 sees the drive. Then Win 8 sees it for a
while. Then it disappears. Some have reported that it is found until
they use Windows update and some "fix" loses it.

>
>Whereas when MS tries to squeeze the OS into thousands of different
>machines there's often incompatibilities as you had and Justin has.
>Sometimes you can find the problem yourself (like finding a new driver
>on the peripheral manufacturers website), and sometimes not.

Win 8 isn't that different under the hood than Win 7, so there is no
exuce for it not finding the same hardware. This is something MS
broke. Looking for new drivers doesn't help.

>
>I've had the same experience many times over with various free Linux
>distros I've downloaded and installed on some of my old computers over
>the years. Making the peripherals work was usually the number one
>challenge for me. The WiFi was a close second.
>
>>it [W8 upgrade] was free with the MS software assurance program.
>
>I'm glad to hear that you're out no cash. Perhaps with a little more
>effort you could make W8 work on that laptop. Depends on how much time
>you want to use. I put hours into that Linux stuff but it was a hobby
>so I was enjoying myself. And like you I had MS recovery disks when I
>got a poor install and couldn't fix it... ;)

It would be enough work to adapt to a new OS and interface. It's not
worth is to have to screw with the hardware/drivers to get something
to work that has no reason not to if MS did their end correctly. I'll
just stick with Win 7 until the next version comes along.

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Tue, 21 May 2013 21:39:11 -0700]:
> nob...@nada.com wrote:
>
>>Losing the CD/DVD drive is a common Win8 issue.
>
> My point was simply that you don't usually run into that problem on a
> factory install. The computer manufacturer has matched the MS OS to
> his machine using the correct (often custom) drivers. And then tests
> the OS-machine combination together before putting it on the market.

The problem with that is then you are stuck using old drivers, often.
Mobile GPUs have this problem, a lot. You'd be saddled with a driver
that was out of date when you got the machine and never see an update
to support a more recent game or whatever

[AL]

nob...@nada.com wrote:

>AL wrote:

>Losing the CD/DVD drive is a common Win8 issue.

>>My point was simply that you don't usually run into that problem on a
>>factory install.

>The problem occurs on upgrades and fresh installs of Win 8.

Yes. And not so much on factory installs. That is my point (above).

>It's unrealistic of MS to think people will buy new hardware just to get
>Win 8.

You are correct. And I never said that it was. From what I read people
are not only not buying new hardware to get W8, they're not even
buying W8 (much)... 8-O

>Win 8 isn't that different under the hood than Win 7,

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57478350-75/microsoft-explains-how-windows-8-smokes-windows-7/

>This is something MS broke.

Was it ever fixed in the first place? Here's 22 problems from the old
W7 upgrade days including, ahem, "DVD drive not found"... ;)

http://www.techradar.com/us/news/software/operating-systems/22-common-windows-7-problems-solved-655655

>It would be enough work to adapt to a new OS and interface. It's not
>worth is to have to screw with the hardware/drivers to get something
>to work that has no reason not to if MS did their end correctly. I'll
>just stick with Win 7 until the next version comes along.

What make's you think that W9 won't have the same install/upgrade
problems on a strange machine that W8 has? Why would it be any
different... :-/

But in another few years you likely will be ready for a new laptop
with a factory installed, problem free, W9 edition.
Problem solved... :)

[AL]

Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:

>AL wrote on [Tue, 21 May 2013 21:39:11 -0700]:

>> My point was simply that you don't usually run into that problem on a
>> factory install. The computer manufacturer has matched the MS OS to
>> his machine using the correct (often custom) drivers. And then tests
>> the OS-machine combination together before putting it on the market.
>
>The problem with that is then you are stuck using old drivers,

I've never been stuck with any drivers. They're quite easy to change,
though sometimes hard to find. But that hasn't been necessary for me
with my factory installed OS laptops in recent years.

> often. Mobile GPUs have this problem, a lot. You'd be saddled with a driver
>that was out of date when you got the machine and never see an update
>to support a more recent game or whatever

I'm not a gamer so that's not a problem for me. But I do know gamers
and no self-respecting gamer would ever buy any machine off the
shelf... ;)

[sms]

On 5/21/2013 9:39 PM, AL wrote:

> I've had the same experience many times over with various free Linux
> distros I've downloaded and installed on some of my old computers over
> the years. Making the peripherals work was usually the number one
> challenge for me. The WiFi was a close second.

Linux can drive you to drinking. Especially annoying is when you upgrade
to a new version of the same distro and things stop working. Wi-Fi can
be a nightmare since for some reason there are legal issues with certain
wireless chipsets as well as the removal of support for wireless cards
that were once supported.

[AL]

On Wed, 22 May 2013 12:58:03 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/21/2013 9:39 PM, AL wrote:
>
>> I've had the same experience many times over with various free Linux
>> distros I've downloaded and installed on some of my old computers over
>> the years. Making the peripherals work was usually the number one
>> challenge for me. The WiFi was a close second.
>
>Linux can drive you to drinking. Especially annoying is when you upgrade
>to a new version of the same distro and things stop working.

Things don't work when you upgrade?
Where have I heard that before? :)

>Wi-Fi can
>be a nightmare since for some reason there are legal issues with certain
>wireless chipsets as well as the removal of support for wireless cards
>that were once supported.

Yes. I ran into some Linux installs where I just could never make
everything work. Often most things would work, but not always
everything.

addendum:

My Eee PC 2G Surf netbook (bought in 2008) came with Xandros Linux
installed. It also came with a disk of drivers for XP. So of course I
put XP on it. But XP seemed to bog it down. So back to the original
snappy Linux. Pre-tablet that was my favorite traveling netbook.

http://www.asus.com/Eee_Family/Eee_PC_2G_Surf/

(The ad says 20GB SSD but that's a misprint. It has a 2GB SSD thus the
name 2G Surf.)

addendum 2:

I still have a live Ubuntu 9.10 disk that I saved for emergency file
recovery purposes. Just for fun I stuck it in this new laptop. The
Bios won't recognize the disk, says "no operating system found". I
thought maybe the disk went bad. But I tried it with my Eee PC 1015
netbook (bought 2011) and it fires right up. Even recognizes the
WiFi... 8-O So I'm not sure what the deal is with this new laptop.
I'll put it on the list of things to figure out later.

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Wed, 22 May 2013 18:51:09 -0700]:
>
> I still have a live Ubuntu 9.10 disk that I saved for emergency file
> recovery purposes. Just for fun I stuck it in this new laptop. The
> Bios won't recognize the disk, says "no operating system found". I
> thought maybe the disk went bad. But I tried it with my Eee PC 1015
> netbook (bought 2011) and it fires right up. Even recognizes the
> WiFi... 8-O So I'm not sure what the deal is with this new laptop.
> I'll put it on the list of things to figure out later.

My bet, your new laptop isn't running a BIOS, but EFI. 9.10 is probably
too old to work in EFI

[SMS]

On 5/22/2013 6:51 PM, AL wrote:

> I still have a live Ubuntu 9.10 disk that I saved for emergency file
> recovery purposes. Just for fun I stuck it in this new laptop. The
> Bios won't recognize the disk, says "no operating system found". I
> thought maybe the disk went bad. But I tried it with my Eee PC 1015
> netbook (bought 2011) and it fires right up. Even recognizes the
> WiFi... 8-O So I'm not sure what the deal is with this new laptop.
> I'll put it on the list of things to figure out later.

I suspect that it's something to do with UEFI.

<http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/linus-torvalds-on-windows-8-uefi-and-fedora/11187>

I was finally able to get one desktop system I have to boot both Windows
8 and Ubuntu, but it was very difficult and required a second hard disk.
I would have preferred Windows 7 on that system.

[AL]

SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>On 5/22/2013 6:51 PM, AL wrote:

>> I still have a live Ubuntu 9.10 disk that I saved for emergency file
>> recovery purposes. Just for fun I stuck it in this new laptop. The
>> Bios won't recognize the disk, says "no operating system found".

>I suspect that it's something to do with UEFI.

Bingo, that was it. I had never even heard of UEFI. This W8 stuff is
getting scarier and scarier... 8-O

I checked in the new Laptop's bios and there is a setting for UEFI or
Legacy Bios. So I set it to Legacy Bios and my old Ubuntu 9.10 disk
loaded right up and worked just fine. There's no WiFi support (I kind
of expected that) but Ethernet works (full internet access) and I have
complete file access as well, so the old Linux disk can continue to be
kept as an emergency repair and/or file retrieval tool.

Being as old as the disk is I was surprised at how well it worked on
this new laptop. It got the screen resolution (HD) correct and the
built in apps and browser look great.

I of course got "no operating system found" from W8 until I switched
back to UEFI. That phrase is kind of scary on a new laptop...

Thanks to both of you for those suggestions and info... :)

[SMS]

On 5/22/2013 10:58 PM, AL wrote:
> SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/22/2013 6:51 PM, AL wrote:
>
>>> I still have a live Ubuntu 9.10 disk that I saved for emergency file
>>> recovery purposes. Just for fun I stuck it in this new laptop. The
>>> Bios won't recognize the disk, says "no operating system found".
>
>> I suspect that it's something to do with UEFI.
>
> Bingo, that was it. I had never even heard of UEFI. This W8 stuff is
> getting scarier and scarier... 8-O

The issue was that Windows was too insecure. You could boot a Linux CD
and access files on a Windows hard disk, change passwords, etc.

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Wed, 22 May 2013 22:58:31 -0700]:
> SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 5/22/2013 6:51 PM, AL wrote:
>
>>> I still have a live Ubuntu 9.10 disk that I saved for emergency file
>>> recovery purposes. Just for fun I stuck it in this new laptop. The
>>> Bios won't recognize the disk, says "no operating system found".
>
>>I suspect that it's something to do with UEFI.
>
> Bingo, that was it. I had never even heard of UEFI. This W8 stuff is
> getting scarier and scarier... 8-O

nah, UEFI has little to do with WIndows 8, it's the replacement for BIOS,
Macs use it too

[AL]

Yes, I now read that EFI has been around since long before W8.

Perhaps I should have said that this new W8 hardware of mine is
getting scarier and scarier. And that is apparently new for W8:

"All Windows 8 licensed hardware will be shipping with secure boot
enabled by default in their replacement for the BIOS, Unfied
Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI)."

And the scary part:

"by default only Windows 8 will run on these systems, so no Linux, no
BSD, heck, no Windows XP for that matter."

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/linus-torvalds-on-windows-8-uefi-and-fedora/11187

Do all new computers ship with a 'Legacy Bios' choice or are lots of
people now SOL?

> it's the replacement for BIOS,

I keep seeing "replacement for BIOS" in the articles I read yesterday.
Yet my new laptop calls it "BIOS" everywhere I look (bios password,
bios settings, bios version #, etc). What's with that?

>Macs use it too

Of course. I would expect nothing less... ;)

[AL]

Apparently some of that security is defeated on my laptop with its
Legacy Boot? It's apparently like my phone. I can use a password but
anyone finding my phone only has to plug it into a PC and all my files
are there unsecured... 8-O

[SMS]

On my Lenovo desktop it has UEFI but somehow I screwed up something so
that I can't use Secure Boot, only legacy boot. It must have been during
the ten or so times I restored the system while trying to install
Ubuntu. What finally worked was installing Ubuntu on a second drive with
the Windows drive unplugged then manually editing GRUB to see the
Windows drive when I plugged it in.

[sms]

On 5/23/2013 9:15 AM, AL wrote:

Here's what I went through:

<http://us.generation-nt.com/answer/ubuntu-12-10-64-bit-installed-along-onto-pre-installed-windows-8-system-woes-efi-related-help-210505622.html?page=6>

One thing you can't do anymore is to install Wubi. on any system with
UEFI instead of a BIOS. However if you upgraded to windows 8 on an older
machine that still has a BIOS then you can install Wubi.

[Justin]

AL wrote on [Thu, 23 May 2013 09:15:29 -0700]:
> Justin <nos...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
>>AL wrote on [Wed, 22 May 2013 22:58:31 -0700]:
>
>>>I had never even heard of UEFI. This W8 stuff is
>>> getting scarier and scarier... 8-O
>>
>>nah, UEFI has little to do with WIndows 8,
>
> Yes, I now read that EFI has been around since long before W8.
>
> Perhaps I should have said that this new W8 hardware of mine is
> getting scarier and scarier. And that is apparently new for W8:
>
> "All Windows 8 licensed hardware will be shipping with secure boot
> enabled by default in their replacement for the BIOS, Unfied
> Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI)."
>
> And the scary part:
>
> "by default only Windows 8 will run on these systems, so no Linux, no
> BSD, heck, no Windows XP for that matter."

yep, that's bad.

> Do all new computers ship with a 'Legacy Bios' choice or are lots of
> people now SOL?

Lots do, however Macs don't

>> it's the replacement for BIOS,
>
> I keep seeing "replacement for BIOS" in the articles I read yesterday.
> Yet my new laptop calls it "BIOS" everywhere I look (bios password,
> bios settings, bios version #, etc). What's with that?

laziness?

[AL]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>Here's what I went through:
>
><http://us.generation-nt.com/answer/ubuntu-12-10-64-bit-installed-along-onto-pre-installed-windows-8-system-woes-efi-related-help-210505622.html?page=6>

That toggle switch kludge is an interesting solution. I like kludges.
But not having access to common files might be a deal breaker. And
then I suppose that extra drive might be a little difficult to do on a
laptop... ;)

But I'm not sure that the EFI BIOS would allow the second drive on a
system like mine to boot at all. The authors live CD was apparently
recognized right off, enough to start an installation anyway. Mine
just reports "no operating system found".

Not that I'd try something like that on my laptop, but just for
discussions sake.

>One thing you can't do anymore is to install Wubi. on any system with
>UEFI instead of a BIOS.

From a quick Google search I found no solutions for a dual boot of
Linux and a *pre-install* of W8.

>However if you upgraded to windows 8 on an older
>machine that still has a BIOS then you can install Wubi.

I still have two of my old W7 laptops and that might be fun to try if
I could get a W8 upgrade for nobody's price... ;)

[sms]

On 5/23/2013 6:08 PM, AL wrote:
> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Here's what I went through:
>>
>> <http://us.generation-nt.com/answer/ubuntu-12-10-64-bit-installed-along-onto-pre-installed-windows-8-system-woes-efi-related-help-210505622.html?page=6>
>
> That toggle switch kludge is an interesting solution. I like kludges.
> But not having access to common files might be a deal breaker. And
> then I suppose that extra drive might be a little difficult to do on a
> laptop... ;)

Maybe I referred you to the wrong post. The toggle switch is gone, that
was a temporary solution until I figured out how to manually edit GRUB
to get it to work.