New Trout/Hamilton Maps
Ben
and/or Hamilton Cave in WV? Are there any resources that come to mind? We
are planning a trip for spring so any and all info is appreciated. Thanks
much.
Ben Brannon
NSS #48364
Rick Toomey
Since I have been chastised in the past for not telling the
group when I answered a question by email, I am alerting
you that I made a suggestion via email. Because I suggested
contacting a third party (and provided contact info),
I did not feel it appropriate to post that person's contact
info publically.
Obviously, this should not stop people from answering,
if they have useful info for Mr. Brannon.
Rick Toomey
Illinois State Museum
too...@museum.state.il.us
Paul Montgomery
is a good idea, and thanks for it too.
Rick Toomey <too...@museum.state.il.us> wrote in message
news:38A85F69...@museum.state.il.us...
Tony Brocklebank
--
__________________________________
Email: to...@alpine.fsnet.co.uk
Web site: www.alpine.fsnet.co.uk
__________________________________
Paul Montgomery <Pa...@tcia.net> wrote in message
news:9BZp4.9873$Cn1.2...@news5.giganews.com...
Benjamin Madore
>and/or Hamilton Cave in WV? Are there any resources that come to mind?
I hate to say, but "Me Too."
I've been into Trout a number of times, (but nearly always just in the
"front", and I forget how to make the transition from the "front" to the
"back" of the cave, darn it!) but due to lack of a map or experienced
leaders have not ventured into Hamilton much. I don't quite feel like
playing in that hot, tight, short front section for a few hours in attempts
to locate the back, that place is MIGHTY confusing for me.
Well, I guess the point being, are there maps of the caves on the preserve?
And what do you think are the best parts of these caves, should I, say, want
to take some other guys in the grotto too.
Thanks in advance,
-Ben Madore
NSS#47184
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Nigel Robertson
"Benjamin Madore" <tuor_...@bedford.net> wrote in message
news:38aa...@pigeon.jmu.edu...
> >Which (if any) NSS or WVASS publications include maps of New Trout Cave
> >and/or Hamilton Cave in WV? Are there any resources that come to mind?
>
> I hate to say, but "Me Too."
>
> I've been into Trout a number of times, (but nearly always just in the
> "front", and I forget how to make the transition from the "front" to the
> "back" of the cave, darn it!) but due to lack of a map or experienced
> leaders have not ventured into Hamilton much. I don't quite feel like
> playing in that hot, tight, short front section for a few hours in
attempts
> to locate the back, that place is MIGHTY confusing for me.
>
(which after all is the nub of caving, isn't it?). Try and map it yourself.
A sketch is all that is needed if it is just for route finding. Set aside
some trips to just go and poke about in all the grotholes in the cave and
start to eliminate some until you choose the correct one. You never know,
you might suddenly find yourself standing in a new passage, hitherto unknown
or even just an easier way through to the 'back'. I was in a cave today
(White Scar) where 50 years after the first exploration, a team decided to
climb about in some boulder collapse instead of slavishly following the
known route. After 60 feet, they popped out into a massive, well decorated
chamber.
Good luck
Nigel
Paul Montgomery
His email is bbal...@daa.com . Please make sure that I don't get a nasty
call from him because of getting so many email requests. :]
Benjamin Madore <tuor_...@bedford.net> wrote in message
news:38aa...@pigeon.jmu.edu...
> >Which (if any) NSS or WVASS publications include maps of New Trout Cave
> >and/or Hamilton Cave in WV? Are there any resources that come to mind?
>
> I hate to say, but "Me Too."
>
> I've been into Trout a number of times, (but nearly always just in the
> "front", and I forget how to make the transition from the "front" to the
> "back" of the cave, darn it!) but due to lack of a map or experienced
> leaders have not ventured into Hamilton much. I don't quite feel like
> playing in that hot, tight, short front section for a few hours in
attempts
> to locate the back, that place is MIGHTY confusing for me.
>
Ben
facing a five hour drive just to get to these caves...I'm seeking maps only
because I want to get the most out of my time there. While venturing into
to "unknown territory" certainly has it's own unique, intriguing values, I
feel this situation would be better approached with as much knowledge and
pre-trip planning as possible. Furthermore, I am a "map junkie" anyway; as
a GIS/survey tech maps are the essence of much of what I do.
So again, everyone, please share your knowledge of the Guilday Preserve
caves with us.
Thanks for your input,
Ben Brannon
NSS #48364
Paul Montgomery
what you need. The suggestion got trampled in the middle of the cave secrecy
thing. It also got jumped on because of copyright issues.
I have digitized many maps and even digitally restored some old worn copies
I have. I think digital topos are great because I can zoom in and print a
blowup of just the area I'm planning to ridgewalk and take that print out in
the field, make note on it and come back and transfer those notes to the
master map.
I would ask that cavers think about the map server again but in terms of how
you could build a server that had enough security to get these maps and
other information into the hands of only those who should have them.
Ben's case in point, if he had a map of Hamilton, his trip would have less
impact to the cave. This is true for any caver. If we could have maps,
parking restrictions, entrance agreements, etc. accessible to cavers then
our impact in terms of landowner relations and cave conservation gets a
great boost. It might keep many caves open that would be closed due to
misunderstanding with the landowners. It might get closed caves open due to
those owners not being bothered so much by running us off when we come to
ask permission. Lots of good points to doing this but these need to be
weighed against the bad points. (Sound like a good lead in to a new
paragraph).
Bad Points
Easy access to information like this is going to cause an increase in
visitations.
Information is more freely give out and this will mean less control with the
possibility of vandals doing harm.
I would suggest that these bad points could be eliminated if a server was
setup that had the proper restrictions. First I want to define the people
that I want to keep this information from. I'm sure that others will have a
slightly different definition, but here is mine:
We should restrict anyone who does not believe and practice cave
conservation as defined by the NSS motto of " Take nothing but pictures,
leave nothing but footprints".
We should restrict access to anyone who does not have the experience or
training necessary to safely visit that cave.
Increased visitation can not be eliminated and is not a bad thing
necessarily. A cave that is getting the trash cleaned out is benefiting from
increased visitation. I think that a better defining statement would be that
we don't want a map/info server to advertise the cave or even give away it's
existence but still be able to give out information. I think that this is
possible.
Here is my stab at doing this. Build a server that has a front end (web
page) that has a search engine that can only be accessed by password. Since
all NSS members swear an oath to live by "Take Nothing but..." then let only
NSS members have access to it. Let the NSS host the site. Cavers from other
countries could have access through agreements with that countries organized
caving establishment or they can join the NSS. It really doesn't cost that
much and would give the NSS the money to run the server. (It will need to
have gigs of hard drive space.)
The server only gives information out when you know the name of the cave,
and approximate location like county or even quad. This way you don't get a
list of caves in an area and they are not advertised. How about restricting
the number of time a person can request info in a day. Make it low enough
that it would take someone years to pick out all the information even if he
did know the cave names and locations.
The way I see it, if you put these restrictions on access to a map/info
server, the only people that would have access already know where the cave
is and what it's name is, and those people are going to go in with or
without the info from the server. Giving this information to those people
WILL ONLY HELP CAVE CONSERVATION.
Some comments on the nuts and bolts of building a serve: Maps digitized as
bitmaps are large when done with enough resolution to see detail. There are
thousands of caves. If each map took up 1/2 meg times 1000 caves you have
500 megs of data just in the maps. You need a dedicated server with a big
hard drive to do this. The space plus the security needed dictates that some
organization have a server connected to the internet. The NSS comes to mind.
Filling this server with info is a big job, but not so big if we would allow
cavers everywhere to submit the info via a submittal page and uploading the
map as a bitmap. Issues of accuracy and copyright could be handled by an NSS
staff member. I really can't see to many copyright holder protesting. I
think most mapmaker would be happy to get their maps into the right hands. I
might be wrong in this. The server's request page could by festooned with
messages of cave conservation or other such propaganda. I bet that it would
draw lots of hits whether the hitter searches for a cave or not. It would
most likely give a big boost to NSS membership. You could have a page for
cavers to enter trip reports. That way a database would be available for
study and it would give up to date information to anyone planning a visit.
Nice to know that that rope ladder is missing now or a wet crawl is sumped.
I sure would be eager to share that kind of info with anyone who is planning
to visit a cave that I had been to.
Anyone care to comment?
Paul Montgomery
Ben <bra...@eurekanet.com> wrote in message
news:NjJq4.38900$vi4....@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
Ben
Trout map has disappeared. What? Huh? That seems a bit hard to grasp.
Also, apparently a map of Hamilton was published in the D.C. Speleograph,
the newsletter of the D.C. Grotto of the N.S.S.. Anyone have any ideas as
to which issue it was?
Thanks,
Ben Brannon
NSS #
Douglas Moore II
past publication with a map of those caves and two future publications.
The past one is the 1983 NSS Convention Guidebook "Caves of East-Central
West Virginia" It is completely out of print and is extremely hard to
obtain from used caving book dealers also. However in the future there
will be two publications with the "new" maps of the caves. The 2000 NSS
Convention Guidebook for Elkins. Easiest way to obtain one of those is to
attend the NSS Convention in Elkins in late June. The next publication
which is about 1-2 years out is the WVASS Bulletin on the caves of
Pendleton County, West Virginia. The WVASS books like the NSS Convention
guidebooks are only sold to NSS Members.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
NSS 33064RL Douglas L Moore II NASAR 102903
UTM Zone 17 Coordinates 562,160 East 4,363,370 North
Staff - Eastern Region - NCRC (http://svis.org/erncrc/erncrc.htm)
Owner - Karst Sports (Caving, Climbing, & Rescue equipment)
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Email: dougla...@dttwv01.org or cave...@yahoo.com
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