Caves in Arizona?
Andy Foster
A colleague and I are due out to Pheonix on a business trip in November, and
as we are both keen cavers we would like know if there are any caves in
Arizona or nearby states that it might be possible to visit.
We wouldn't have any vertical equipment with us, so they would have to be
fairly simple, straightforward trips.
We are both conservation minded and respect the cave environment, so don't
be concerned about us doing any damage.
Can anyone provide any information, either by privately by e-mail or via
the group?
Thanks in advance
--
Andy Foster
Keyhole Caving Club
Hoyt McKagen
>
> Hi All,
>
> A colleague and I are due out to Pheonix on a business trip in November, and
> as we are both keen cavers we would like know if there are any caves in
> Arizona or nearby states that it might be possible to visit.
>
> We wouldn't have any vertical equipment with us, so they would have to be
> fairly simple, straightforward trips.
>
> We are both conservation minded and respect the cave environment, so don't
> be concerned about us doing any damage.
>
> Can anyone provide any information, either by privately by e-mail or via
> the group?
You bet!! See below: [The University of Arizona Library, Tucson]
CAVES OF ARIZONA: AN INDEX TO THE TOPOGRAPHIC MAPS ON WHICH THEY ARE
LOCATED
by
Jack D. Mount
INTRODUCTION
Patrons of the Map Collection frequently seek cartographic information
relevant to their studies of Arizona's caves. This series of short
articles
listing maps and references for Arizona's caves is provided to greater
facilitate retrieval of the information.
The following index lists the U. S. Geological Survey 7 1/2 minute
topographic map quadrangles on which Arizona's caves are located. The
information was extracted from the U. S. Geological Survey's (U.S.G.S.)
computerized Geographic Names Information System (GNIS) which lists all
place names shown on the USGS topographic maps. A few more caves and
their
locations were gleaned from caving periodicals located in other
departments
of the University Library. The Arizona portion of the GNIS is found in
the
Map Collection as two different paper products: "The National Gazetteer
of
the United States of America--Arizona 1986", U. S. G. S. Professional
Paper, no. 1200-AZ [QE75 P9 no.1200-AZ]; and "Volume 5, Southwestern
States", Omni Gazetteer of the United States of America [E154 O45 1991
v.5]. The Map Collection also has the entire GNIS database on CD-ROM as
the
Omni Gazetteer of the United States of America by SilverPlatter and
searchable through the computer located by the Map Collection's reference
desk.
The caves are listed alphabetically in the index. Each cave's entry is
followed by the county name and the 7 1/2 minute quadrangle name. The Map
Collection has a complete set of these topographic maps [G4331s C2 1882
U6]. Also, the longitude/latitude coordinates are given for the caves
that
are shown on the maps.
INDEX
NAME COUNTY TOPOGRAPHIC COORDINATES
QUADRANGLE
Agua Caliente Caves Santa Cruz Mt. Hopkins 314115N
1105731W
Allen Springs Cave Yavapai Cottonwood
Apache Cave - variant, see Browns Cave
Arsenic Cave Graham Point of Pines West 331848N
1094920W
Barnes Tunnel Gila Inspiration 332909N
1105816W
Basalt Cave Coconino Kendrick Peak
Bat Cave Greenlee Copperplate Gulch 330125N
1092443W
Bat Cave Mohave Bat Cave 360254N
1134806W
Bed Blanket Cave Mohave Heaton Knolls 363258N
1125606W
Bellemont Cave - variant, see Lava River Cave
Bells, Cave of the - see Cave of the Bells
Betatakin Cave Navajo Betatakin Ruin 364102N
1103206W
Black Cave Yavapai Governors Peak 335853N
1122027W
Black Jack Cave Greenlee Big Lue Mts. 330229N
1090624W
Black Gold Cave - variant, see Bat Cave (Mohave)
Branaman Cave Graham Branaman Spring 331953N
1101254W
Broken Flute Cave Apache Boiling Over Well
Browns Cave Maricopa Horse Mesa Dam 333637N
1111907W
Buffalo Crack Coconino Roden Crater
Carpenters Cave Graham Jackson Mtn. 325722N
1101131W
Carr Peak Cave Cochise Miller Peak
Cathedral Caves Yavapai Cathedral Caves 350736N
1123454W
Cave of the Bells Santa Cruz Mt. Wrightson 314342N
1104604W
Cave of the Domes Coconino Cape Royal
Cave, unnamed Coconino North Canyon Point 3634--N
11148--W
Cave, unnamed Gila Diamond Point 3418--N
11112--W
Cave, unnamed Gila Parallel Canyon
Cave, unnamed Mohave Columbine Falls 3606--N
11356--W
Cave A Coconino North Canyon Point
Cave B Coconino North Canyon Point
Cave 1 Apache Boiling Over Well
Cave 2 Apache Boiling Over Well
Cave 3 Apache Kinusta Mesa
Cave 4 Apache Kinusta Mesa
Cave 6 Apache Kinusta Mesa
Cave 7 Apache Boiling Over Well
Cave 8 Apache Boiling Over Well
Cave 9 Apache Boiling Over Well
Caves, unnamed Gila Windy Hill 3338--N
11107--W
Caves, unnamed Yavapai Camp Verde 3432--N
11148--W
Cheyava Falls Cave Coconino Walhalla Plateau
Coconino Caverns - variant, see Grand Canyon Caverns
Colossal Cave Pima Vail 320345N
1103755W
Columbine Cave Gila Parallel Canyon
Coronado Cave Cochise Montezuma Pass
Cosper Cave Greenlee Bear Mountain
Crystal Cave Pinal Dudleyville 325342N
1104117W
Crystal Cave Cochise Portal 315306N
1091307W
Crystal Cave Greenlee Coronado Mtn. 331023N
1092249W
Dangling Flake Fissure Coconino Wupatki NE
Deadman Cave Pima Campo Bonito
Dinosaur Caverns - variant, see Grand Canyon Caverns
Dog-Leg Cave Gila Parallel Canyon
Earth Crack Coconino Wupatke NE
Earth Crack No. 2 Coconino Wupatke NE
Earth Crack No. 3 Coconino Wupatke NE
El Capitan Cave - variant, see Grantham Cave
Falls Cave Coconino North Canyon Point
Fir Tree Alcove Apache Mummy Cave Ruins 361235N
1092146W
41-Club Cave Gila Parallel Canyon
Four Mile Cave Cochise Apache Peak
Geronimo Cave Navajo Corn Creek Plateau 334935N
1095211W
Government Cave - variant, see Lava River Cave
Grand Canyon Caverns Coconino Grand Canyon Caverns 353107N
1131305W
Grandad Cave Coconino Munds Park
Grantham Cave Pinal Cutter
Harris Cave Apache County Whiting Knoll 341046N
1093724W
Horseshoe Mesa Caves Coconino Cape Royal 360152N
1115854W
House of Hands Navajo Mystery Valley 365401N
1100952W
House of Many Hands - variant, see House of Hands
Ibex Mountain - variant, see Ice Cave
Ice Cave Coconino Sunset Crater West 352148N
1113049W
Indian Cave Yavapai Cathedral Caves 350736N
1123454W
Jackass Cave Pinal Hot Tamale Peak 3308--N
11053--W
Jail Cave Greenlee Clifton 330318N
1091757W
James Mine Cave Cochise Miller Peak
Kana-a Cave Coconino Sunset Crater East
Kartchner Caverns Cochise McGrew Spring
Lava River Cave Coconino Wing Mountain 352032N
1115007W
Malmquist Fissure Coconino Wupatki NE
Massacre Cave Apache Mummy Cave Ruins 361418N
1092132W
Millers Cave Apache Lupton 352211N
1090247W
Montezuma Cave Pima Chiuli Shaik 314720N
1113750W
Montezuma Well Cave Yavapai Lake Montezuma
Muav Caves Mohave Columbine Falls 360537N
1135459W
Mummy Cave Apache Mummy Cave Ruins 361350N
1092120W
Mummy House - variant, see Mummy Cave
Natural Cave #2 Cochise Cinder Hill
Natural Cave #3 Cochise Cinder Hill
Natural Cave Cochise Cinder Hill
Nugget Cave - variant, see Peppersauce Cave
Obelisk Cave Apache Kinusta Mesa
Onyx Cave Santa Cruz Mt. Wrightson 314303N
1104611W
Papago Springs Cave Santa Cruz Mt. Hughes
Peppersauce Cave Pinal Campo Bonito 323133N
1104223W
Pine Flat Cave Graham Point of Pines East
Pocket Cave Apache Boiling Over Well
Pyeatt Cave Cochise Pyeatt Ranch 313307N
1102646W
Ram's Horn Cave Apache Boiling Over Well
Rampart Cave Mohave Columbine Falls 360556N
1135557W
Rattlesnake Cave - variant, see Silverbell Cave
Redman Cave Gila Parallel Canyon 341114N
1104659W
Redwall Cavern Coconino Tatahatso Point 3629--N
11150--W
Roaring Springs Cave Coconino Bright Angel Point 361142N
1120206W
San Xavier Mine Cave Pima Twin Buttes
Scout Cave Gila Payson North
Scroll Cave Pinal Campo Bonito
Shadow Cave Coconino Square Butte 363112N
1105747W
Silver Cave Santa Cruz Mt. Wrightson 313730N
1104733W
Silverbell Cave Pima Waterman Peak
Skeleton Cave - variant, see Browns Cave
Skull Cave - variant, see Browns Cave
Skull Cave Maricopa Mormon Flat Dam 333507N
1112238W
Slate Lakes Cave Coconino Kendrick Peak 352731N
1114858W
Stanton's Cave Coconino North Canyon Point 3630--N
11152--W
Superior High
School Cave Pinal Superior
Swallet Cave Yavapai Lake Montezuma
Tapeats Cave Coconino Tapeats Amphitheater 362427N
1122545W
Thunder Cave Coconino Tapeats Amphitheater 362348N
1122728W
Tom Ketchum Cave Cochise Pedregosa Mountains
West
Toppys Cave Graham Bonita Spring 330209N
1093112W
Tule Tubs Cave Graham Point of Pines West
Umbrella Cave Pinal Superior
Ventana Cave Pima Ventana 322313N
1121403W
Villa Senor Cave Pima Sabino Canyon
Wildcat Cave Coconino Dog Point 3623--N
11201--W
Winona Ice Cave Coconino Winona
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
INDEX TO MAPS OF CAVES OF ARIZONA
INTRODUCTION
Patrons frequently ask for maps of individual caves, maps that show the
subsurface configuration of caves. Actually, very few such maps are
published as sheet maps and made available to libraries. Most published
cave maps are found in caving, scientific and archaeological periodicals.
This index lists the Arizona cave maps that are published in titles
available in the University Library.
INDEX
Broken Flute Cave: Elizabeth A. Morris. "Basketmaker Caves in the Prayer
Rock district, Northeastern Arizona". Anthropological Papers Univ. AZ,
no.35, 1980, fig.5. [GN2 A7 Main & Spec. Coll.].
Cathedral Cave: Bob Buecher. "Cathedral and Indian Caves, Arizona".
Arizona
Caver, vol.5, no.4, 1969, p.68. [FS9791 A71C3 Spec. Coll. & GB601 A7
Sci.].
Cave 1: Elizabeth A. Morris. "Basketmaker Caves in the Prayer Rock
District, Northeastern Arizona". Anthropological Papers Univ. AZ, no.35,
1980, fig.7. [GN2 A7 Main & Spec. Coll.].
Cave 2: Elizabeth A. Morris. "Basketmaker Caves in the Prayer Rock
District, Northeastern Arizona". Anthropological Papers Univ. AZ, no.35,
1980, fig. 7. [GN2 A7 Main & Spec. Coll.].
Colossal Cave: Langford G. Brod. Geology and Speleogenesis of Colossal
Cave, Pima County, Arizona. Tucson: Univ. Arizona, MS thesis, 1987, pls.
2-3. [E9791 1987 528 Map Coll.].
Colossal Cave: Spectacular Colossal Cave, Tucson, Arizona. Vail: Colossal
Cave, [no date], inside page. [G4332 C7 196- S7 Map Coll.].
Compass Cave: Jerry Hassemer. "Compass Cave, Coconino County, Arizona."
Cave Crawler's Gazette, vol.12, no.5, 1971, p.91. [FS9791 C378 Spec.
Coll.].
Cosper Cave: Paul S. Martin, and others. "Caves of the Reserve Area".
Fieldiana: Anthropology, vol.42, 1954, fig.9. [GN2 F4 Main].
Deadman Cave: Ron R. Bridgeman. "Deadman Cave". Arizona Caver, vol.1,
no.1,
1964, p.8. [FS9791 A71C3 Spec. Coll. & GB601 A7 Sci.].
Diamond Cave: Jerry Hassemer. "Diamond Cave, Coconino County, Arizona".
Cave Crawler's Gazette, vol.9, no.4, 1968, following p.36. [FS9791 C378
Spec. Coll.].
Dog-Leg Cave: Alan Williams. "Description of Dog-Leg Cave". Cave
Crawler's
Gazette, vol.9, no.5, 1968, p.54. [FS9791 C378 Spec. Coll.].
Dum Ditty Cave: Don Lancaster. "Dum Ditty Cave--." Cave Crawler's
Gazette,
vol.12, no.4, 1971, p.67. [FS9791 C378 spec. Coll.].
Dum Ditty Cave: Bill Peachey. "Dum Ditty Cave, Gila County, Arizona". The
Desert Caver, vol.1, no.4, 1971, p.74. [FS9791 D451 Spec. Coll. & GB601
D4
Sci.].
Earth Crack No. 3: Jess Tyler. "Earth Crack No. 3". Arizona Caver, vol.2,
no.2, 1965, p.24. [FS9791 A71C3 Spec. Coll. & GB601 A7 Sci.].
Falls Cave: Alan Williams. "Hydrological Observations in Falls Cave".
Cave
Crawler's Gazette, vol.10, no.1, 1969, p.5. [FS9791 C378 Spec. Coll.].
Grantham Cave: Don Lancaster & Bee Lancaster. "A Possible San Pedro
Cochise
Site". Cave Crawler's Gazette, vol.10, no.2, 1969, p.24. [FS9791 C378
Spec.
Coll.].
Grantham Cave: Alan Williams. "Grantham Cave, Gila Co., Ariz." Cave
Crawler's Gazette, vol.10, no.3, 1969, p.43. [FS9791 C378 Spec. Coll.].
Indian Cave: Bob Buecher. "Cathedral and Indian Caves, Arizona". Arizona
Caver, vol.5, no.4, 1969, p.68. [FS9791 A71C3 Spec. Coll. & GB601 A7
Sci.].
Ivory Cave: Jerry Hassemer. "Ivory Cave". Cave Crawler's Gazette, vol.8,
no.3, 1967, p.30. [FS9791 C378 Spec. Coll.].
Kana-a Cave: Gerald G. Forney. "Lava Tubes of the San Franciscan Volcanic
Field, Arizona." Plateau, vol.44, no.1, 1971, p.7. [F806 P58 Main].
Kartchner Caverns: Charles G. Graf. "Kartchner Caverns State Park: A
Geologic Showpiece". Arizona Geology, vol.20, no.1, Spring 1990, p.2.
[TN24
A6F5 Sci.].
Lava River Cave: Charles F. Park. "Government Cave." Museum Notes of the
Museum of Northern Arizona, vol.2, no.6, 1929, p.3. [F806 P58 Main].
Montezuma Well Cave: Arthur Lange. "Studies on the Origin of Montezuma
Well
and Cave, Arizona". Cave Studies, no.9, 1957, pl.1. [GB601 A1C3 Sci.].
Montezuma Well Cave: Ron R. Bridgeman. "Archaeological Cave Sites in
Arizona". Arizona Caver, vol.3, no.1, 1966, p.5. [FS9791 A71C3 Spec.
Coll.
& GB601 A7 Sci.].
Obelisk Cave: Elizabeth A. Morris. "Basketmaker Caves in the Prayer Rock
District, Northeastern Arizona". Anthropological Papers Univ. AZ, no.35,
1980, fig.9. [GN2 A7 Main & Spec. Coll.].
Outlaw Cave: Tom Strong. "Outlaw Cave, Arizona". Arizona Caver, vol.4,
nos.5-6, 1967, p.41. [FS9791 A71C3 Spec. Coll. & GB601 A1C3 Sci.].
Papago Springs Cave: Morris K. Skinner. "The Fauna of Papago Springs
Cave,
Arizona". Bull. American Mus. Nat. Hist., vol.80, no.6, 1942, fig.1. [QH1
A4 Sci.].
Peppersauce Cave: Edgar B. Heylmun. Guide to the Santa Catalina Mountains
of Arizona. Tucson: Treasure Chest Publications, 1979, p.17. [C9791
S194H617g Spec. Coll.].
Peppersauce Cave: John Priser, "Operation Underground". Desert Magazine,
vol.11, no.4, February 1948, p.7. [F786 D47 Main].
Pine Flat Cave: James C. Gifford. "Archaeological Explorations in Caves
of
the Point of Pines Region". Anthropological Papers Univ. AZ, no.36,
figs.100-102, 106-107 & 138. [GN2 A7 Main & Spec. Coll.].
Pocket Cave: Elizabeth A. Morris. "Basketmaker Caves in the Prayer Rock
district, Northeastern Arizona". Anthropological Papers Univ. AZ, no.35,
1980, fig.7. [GN2 A7 Main & Spec. Coll.].
Slate Lakes Cave: Gerald G. Forney. "Lava Tubes of the San Franciscan
Volcanic Field, Arizona." Plateau, vol.44, no.1, 1971, p.7. [F806 P58
Main].
Stanton's Cave: Robert C. Euler, editor. The Archaeology, Geology, and
Paleobiology of Stanton's Cave, Grand Canyon National Park, Arizona.
Grand
Canyon: Grand Canyon Nat. Hist. Assoc., 1984, fig.2-2. [F788 A73 1984
Main
& Spec. Coll.].
Tom Ketchum Cave: Jeffery F. Burton. "Hunters and the Hunted: The
Prehistoric Art of Tom Letchum Cave". The Kiva, vol.53, no.4, Summer
1988,
fig.2. [F786 K58 Main].
Tule Tubs Cave: James C. Gifford. "Archaeological Explorations in Caves
of
the Point of Pines Region". Anthropological Papers Univ. AZ, no.36, 1980,
figs.82-83. [GN2 A7 Main & Spec. Coll.].
Wildcat Cave: Jerry Hassemer. "Wildcat Cave." Cave Crawler's Gazette,
vol.10, no.5, 1969, p.55. [FS9791 C378 Spec. Coll.].
Woman Cave: Ron R. Bridgeman. "Scout Cave Area". Arizona Caver, vol.2,
no.6, 1965, p.129. [FS9791 A71C3 Spec. Coll. & GB601 A7 Sci.].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
BOOKS AND MAPS ABOUT CAVES AVAILABLE IN THE MAP COLLECTION
INTRODUCTION
The Map Collection has in its holdings only a few titles pertaining
directly to caves--the following list shows the titles available. The
University Library's Main Catalog should be consulted for titles
available
in other areas of the UofA Library.
BOOKS AND ATLASES
Paul Courbon, and others. Atlas of the Great Caves of the World. St.
Louis:
Cave Books, 1989, 369 p., maps. [GB601 A8813 1989].
John Middleton & Tony Waltham. The Underground Atlas. London: Robert Hale
Ltd., 1986, 239 p., maps, ill. [GB601 M5 1986].
W. E. Davies & I. M. Morgan. Geology of Caves. Reston, VA: U. S.
Geological
Survey, 1980, 20 p., map, ill. [in Reference Manual].
SHEET MAPS
Langford G. Brod. Geology and Speleogensis of Colossal Cave, Pima County,
Arizona. Tucson: Univ. Arizona, MS thesis, 1987, 3 sheets. Scales vary.
[E9791 1987 528].
Spectacular Colossal Cave, Tucson, Arizona. Vail: Colossal Cave, [no
date].
[scale not given]. [G4332 C7 196- S7 Map Coll.].
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
KARTCHNER CAVERNS: A BIBLIOGRAPHY
INTRODUCTION
Kartchner Caverns, located on the east slope of the Whetstone Mountains
10
miles southwest of Benson in Cochise County, Arizona, is Arizona's
largest
known cave and when opened will be one of its most spectacular
attractions.
The cave was discovered in 1974 by cave explorers Gary Tenen and Randy
Tufts. To protect its exceptionally pristine condition they kept the find
secret for the next 14 years. The State of Arizona purchased the land
around the cave entrance from the J. A. Kartchner family and on April 27,
1988, created Kartchner Caverns State Park. Arizona State Parks
anticipates
opening the cave to the public sometime in 1996.
BIBLIOGRAPHY
1988. Melissa Rigg. "State to Develop Secret Cavern as Tourist
Attraction".
Arizona Daily Star, April 28, p. A1-A2, ill.
1988. "A Secret of Stewardship" Arizona Daily Star, May 1, p. C2.
1988. Lawrence W. Cheek. "The Secret of Kartchner Caverns". American
West,
vol. 25, no. 5, Oct., p. 38-41, ill. [ F591 A56 Main].
1988. Tom Turner. "Kartchner Cave Recognition Could be an Economic Find".
Arizona Daily Star, Nov. 13, p. B1 & B4, ill, map.
1988. Tom Turner. "Spelunkers Followed Breeze from Below to Find Series
of
Caves, Discoverer Recalls". Arizona Daily Star, Nov. 13, p. B4, ill.
1989. Randy Tufts. "Kartchner Caverns: Arizona's Newest State Park".
Arizona Highways, vol. 65, no. 3, March, p. 4-9, color ill. [F806 A71
Main].
1989. Susan R. Carson. "Final Caverns Transfer Completed". Arizona Daily
Star, May 10, p. B1, map.
1989. Ernie Heltsley & Walt Nett. "Caverns Spur Rush of Land Deals".
Arizona Daily Star, May 29, p. F9, map.
1989. Charles G. Graf. "A Preliminary Report on Hydrological Studies at
Kartchner Caverns State Park". Arizona Hydrological Soc. 2nd Annual
Symposium, Casa Grande, unpublished report.
1990. Anne McCord. "For Now, Only Bats Are Allowed In: Kartchner Caverns
Undergoing Environment Study". Tucson Citizen, Jan. 2.
1990. Charles G. Graf. "Kartchner Caverns State Park: A Geologic
Showpiece". Arizona Geology, vol. 20, no. 1, Spring, p. 2-5, maps, ill.
[TN24 A6F5 Sci.].
1990. "Arizona's Cave Developers Learning From Others". Phoenix Gazette,
May 23.
1992. Leo W. Banks. "Finding Buried Treasure". Sports Illustrated, vol.
76,
no.21, June 1, p. 74-79, ill. [GV561 S733 Main].
[Reprinted from: Pimeria, vol. 23, nos. 4&5, September-December 1992,
pages
1-8]
[The University of Arizona Library,
Tucson]
Regards,
Hoyt McKagen
Belfab CNC - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
Animals have fleas and ticks but I have minions
Michael Ströck
publishes cave-locations and nobody's here to flame him ?
Did the American Way of Caving change overnight ?
Michael Ströck
P.S.: Well done, Hoyt :-)
Hoyt McKagen schrieb in Nachricht <39CF74...@i-plus.net>...
Jon Barry
off of I40. None require vertical equipment, though the entry to Big
Skylight is fairly steep and travel on the Big Skylight cave floor is
described in the park literature as "challenging". The others are less
cluttered with breakdown.
Depends on where you'll be in Arizona whether those are convenient or not.
Jon
"Hoyt McKagen" <batw...@i-plus.net> wrote in message
news:39CF74...@i-plus.net...
> Andy Foster wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > A colleague and I are due out to Pheonix on a business trip in November,
and
> > as we are both keen cavers we would like know if there are any caves in
> > Arizona or nearby states that it might be possible to visit.
> >
> > We wouldn't have any vertical equipment with us, so they would have to
be
> > fairly simple, straightforward trips.
> >
> > We are both conservation minded and respect the cave environment, so
don't
> > be concerned about us doing any damage.
> >
> > Can anyone provide any information, either by privately by e-mail or
via
> > the group?
>
>
minions
Spencer Christian
from GNIS were gated long ago. Also about 90% of the caves on the list
he has for Utah are merely shelters that the geographic names database
people decided to call caves for lack of a better name.
Spencer
In article <ezMz5.50752$cN5.4...@news.chello.at>,
--
*************************************************
If you are planning on being in the utah area
let me know and we can hook up for a trip.
visit WWW.UTAHCAVERESCUE.ORG
*************************************************
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ted samsel
>
> Dont worry any of the pristine caves on Hoyt's very incomplete list
> from GNIS were gated long ago. Also about 90% of the caves on the list
> he has for Utah are merely shelters that the geographic names database
> people decided to call caves for lack of a better name.
And the routine out there in God's Country is:
"Find 'em, map 'em and blast 'em shut!"
Hoyt don't realize that all these damn trees get in the way of the
view.
--
TBSa...@infi.net
http://home.infi.net/~tbsamsel/
'Do the boogie woogie in the South American way'
Hank Snow (1914-1999)
THE RHUMBA BOOGIE
Hoyt McKagen
>
> What's up with this newsgroup ? An american caver
> publishes cave-locations and nobody's here to flame him ?
>
Michael:
We've been thru this already. The secrecy freaks have learned that I have
a firm policy of posting MORE location for every flame. I usually also
pick for flame-reply-posting the caves in their home states as far as I
can determine. So far it all has led to a remarkable calm on the topic,
and I have even seen some rational discussions of the secrecy policy
since.
If you do pass thru Virginia, please stop by. I'll be glad to take you to
any and all of MY secret digs and finds and some smashing long-known
holes too. Last week for ex, with help of a friend in another county, we
led four Canadian visitors thru a cave that has only been visited by
maybe a dozen other folks in all.
Philip Balister
he is calling
himself this year is a crazy/dangerous fellow. He's accused a friend of mine of
raping his ex-girlfriend
and regular accuses the local club of various mis-deeds. Sometimes I get the
urge to respond to
his posts, but have learned just to ignore him.
Philip
Tony Brocklebank
business?
--
Website: www.laptopbits.co.uk
Email: to...@alpine.fsnet.co.uk
Telephone: +44 1704 228012
Philip Balister <bali...@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:39D0CF68...@vt.edu...
Rickard Toomey
"Michael Ströck" wrote:
>
> What's up with this newsgroup ? An american caver
> publishes cave-locations and nobody's here to flame him ?
>
> Did the American Way of Caving change overnight ?
>
> Michael Ströck
>
> P.S.: Well done, Hoyt :-)
>
Why should anyone really worry about Hoyt's posting of
the information? He simply copied information that
is easily available online anyway. His posting
was simply the text of the following webpage:
http://dizzy.library.arizona.edu/users/mount/jack42.html
Anyone who did a search on any of the major web search
engines using the terms "cave" and "arizona" would
find it. The only question on that one is why
Hoyt did not provide more explicit reference to
the site he posted.
A second reason not to worry about Hoyt's post
is that it is really more light than heat
(although perhaps for cavers the saying should
be more heat than light). The information
he provided is really very poor for
allowing someone to visit the caves. Perhaps
information on types of caves, types of
entrances, whether caves are gated, entrance
restrictions, etc. combined with location
information, such as was provided, would
be of real interest. At least (for the
person seeking information) this information
was higher quality than the usual results
that Hoyt posts (often from GNIS). Unlike
the usual set, this appears to actually
contain only caves, not shelters, springs,
or just features with cave in the name.
Rick Toomey
Hoyt McKagen
>
> Unfortunatly not. Pretty much everyone in this group knows Ollie/Hoyt/whatever
> he is calling
> himself this year is a crazy/dangerous fellow.
Hi Philip, I might have thought you'd never write again, esp since
you've gotten yourself into a serious pot/kettle sitch ... surely you
haven't forgotten those trips to Clovar Hollow when you went out to
re-rig the rope on the guys incave, directly under the waterfall? Now
that wouldn't be uncomfortable for you nor dangerous for you, no? But it
did prove considerable nuisance for the guys climbing it. IOW, when
you remark on me and dangerous, you're not only a hypocrit, you're a
God-damned hypocrit.
As for crazy, I seem to recall you being a real public glaed-eyed pain in
ass at meetings too. You seemed to love taking the floor at them, but I
don't recall you ever caving much.
>He's accused a friend of mine of
> raping his ex-girlfriend
Scott (Hoss) Leiffer is in fact a serial sexual assaulter and I know of
two incidents when he definitively perpetrated such. One of those was on
flat trip, in front of probably 50 witnesses and one was at Ceciles at
the Halloween party, during which BTW VPIG also conspired to re-sell
alcohol (the Liquer Raffle) in direct violation of VA law. I also saw him
follow a girl off into the darkness at Jim Washington's home one evening,
as she staggered off saying she felt dizzy. Id bet a few minutes later
she felt much worse.
Hoss was once a friend of mine too, but unlike you I don't still claim
him.
> and regular accuses the local club of various mis-deeds. Sometimes I get the
Ya see, I'm not the only guy who accused VPIG of misdeeds. In fact I meet
people in the area all the time who have had some things similar to say.
You guys still have a lot of living down to do. Fact is I take your
presence here as nothing more than the beginnings of another haunting ...
ignore, har. You're ignorant alright but if you'd had any trend to really
leaving me alone you wouldn't have bothered to write this time. But as
for that, imagine how you'd have felt if you'd been maneuvered onto the
shore to find one of your good lady friends, having been just finished up
with by Leiffer, then carefully splayed out in the dirt for you to see
and have to scrape up and take home. If that isn't a misdeed, can you
name one?
Philip Balister
original
poster via private email. I screwed up and it ended up here. I then cancelled it.
Of course
cancels don't work very well. Since I screwed up, I'm going to take a little time
to
voice what I know regarding Ollie/Hoyt/whatever 's ongoing campaign. If anyone is
offended by this, I'm sorry. I changed the subject so this thread can easily be
ignored
by people that don't care.
Hoyt McKagen wrote:
.
> Hi Philip, I might have thought you'd never write again, esp since
> you've gotten yourself into a serious pot/kettle sitch ... surely you
> haven't forgotten those trips to Clovar Hollow when you went out to
> re-rig the rope on the guys incave, directly under the waterfall? Now
> that wouldn't be uncomfortable for you nor dangerous for you, no? But it
> did prove considerable nuisance for the guys climbing it. IOW, when
> you remark on me and dangerous, you're not only a hypocrit, you're a
> God-damned hypocrit.
>
Regarding the great Clover Hollow waterfall incident. First let me say that none
of the people in the cave that day have held a grudge against me regarding this. In
fact very few of them remember it and thoise that do can't come up with a
consistent
memory.
What I think happened was this: Several largish groups led by experienced people
entered Clover Hollow. I knew most of them. I ride my bicycle up to the cave and
move a couple rocks such that water entering the pit hits a small ledge a few feet
below the lip. This sometimes happens naturally and is very easy to correct. I
left,
my work done. Apparently everyone climbed out in the spray. The weather was good,
and I don't remember the amount of water involved as particularly threatening. To
this
day I am amazed no one figured out what happened while they were there. One person
was hauled up the entrance, although I'm not clear exactly why this happened.
During the aftermath I went in in Clover Hollow. Upon our return to the entrance
pit, we
found a piece of gold line instead of my PMI. I climbed the PMI. Recently (after
one
of McKagens rehashes of this incident), the fellow that replaced the rope and
I discussed
this. I believe that I had tied of the PMI at the bottom of the pit in order to
prevent
rope theft. So I ended up with the goldline and my rope. He claimed to have taken
the PMI
and I was forced to seek him out. I claim that he left both and he had to seek me
out.
Lessons learned: 1) People are never as smart you think they are. 2) Even what
appears
the simplest prank can go badly wrong when the victims do not go along with the
plan.
3) Keep telling people about the ledge so if it haapens to them they can fix it.
Oh yeah, I do not remember when this happened. I'll estimate 1988 give or take a
few years.
>
> As for crazy, I seem to recall you being a real public glaed-eyed pain in
> ass at meetings too. You seemed to love taking the floor at them, but I
> don't recall you ever caving much.
>
I still am a dues paying VPI Cave Club member. You were asked to leave and never
return. Once again, I can't put a date on when you were asked to leave, but I'll
estimate
1990. I wasn't directly involved with this, but as I recollect the Grotto President
had
to consult with a University lawyer on how to ask you to leave.
>
> >He's accused a friend of mine of
> > raping his ex-girlfriend
>
> Scott (Hoss) Leiffer is in fact a serial sexual assaulter and I know of
> two incidents when he definitively perpetrated such. One of those was on
> flat trip, in front of probably 50 witnesses and one was at Ceciles at
> the Halloween party, during which BTW VPIG also conspired to re-sell
> alcohol (the Liquer Raffle) in direct violation of VA law. I also saw him
> follow a girl off into the darkness at Jim Washington's home one evening,
> as she staggered off saying she felt dizzy. Id bet a few minutes later
> she felt much worse.
>
> Hoss was once a friend of mine too, but unlike you I don't still claim
> him.
>
Once again Ollie, you are the only person carrying the torch here. Once again
these events did not happened yesterday but a decade ago.
>
> > and regular accuses the local club of various mis-deeds. Sometimes I get the
>
> Ya see, I'm not the only guy who accused VPIG of misdeeds. In fact I meet
> people in the area all the time who have had some things similar to say.
> You guys still have a lot of living down to do. Fact is I take your
> presence here as nothing more than the beginnings of another haunting ...
> ignore, har. You're ignorant alright but if you'd had any trend to really
> leaving me alone you wouldn't have bothered to write this time. But as
> for that, imagine how you'd have felt if you'd been maneuvered onto the
> shore to find one of your good lady friends, having been just finished up
> with by Leiffer, then carefully splayed out in the dirt for you to see
> and have to scrape up and take home. If that isn't a misdeed, can you
> name one?
Please list our current mis-deeds, we are tired of the old ones. Once again
I know of the events you constantly re-hash and the only person I stay
away from is you. If you'd like I can repost some of your posts the blacksburg
regarding your dislike for the local county sticker office staff, local gas
station operators, re-posts of articles on men's issues into unrelated
threads, etc. At one point I felt sorry for you because you seemed to have
so many problems getting along with what I know to be good groups of
people, over the years I have found that this happens with pretty much
any group you become involved with.
Enough.
Philip
Spencer Christian
I am just wondering. Didnt the doctor prescribe any pills for that
attention deficite (sorry im illeterate and cant spell) disorder of
yours?? And why the hell you arent taking them. It would make your
life a lot simpler you know. The are better ways to get your highs
other than negative attnetion you know.
What really kills me is that I go caving hard for several months and
when things slow donw and I come back to do some "armchair caving" you
guys are having the same old arguments. Its seems the only constant is
Hoyt. Get a life bud, and refill that prescription of yours.
Oh now whatever you do dont post that list of shelters for utah. Isnt
that what you do when someone flames you?
Spencer
In article <39D21BD0...@vt.edu>,
--
Hoyt McKagen
> voice what I know regarding Ollie/Hoyt/whatever 's ongoing campaign.
Let's see ... I post something about caves in Arizona, you pop up with a
load of really old crap .. to which I reply with part of the truth about
the actual events, and you accuse me of having a campaign??
> Regarding the great Clover Hollow waterfall incident. First let me say that none
> of the people in the cave that day have held a grudge against me regarding this.
I don't care if they do or don't, the fact is it was stupid and
dangerous to do. Your people have surely been harsher on me for much less
reason, so I think the term hypocrite still applies.
For ex, I was criticised for weeks on end for taking a landowner to his
own cave .. the comments were to effect that by writing about this I
had inspired the curiousity of everyone and they would all set out to
find it ... when VPI people had a photo series of this same cave in the
convention manual.
> During the aftermath I went in in Clover Hollow. Upon our return to the entrance
> pit, we
> found a piece of gold line instead of my PMI. I climbed the PMI. Recently (after
> one
> of McKagens rehashes of this incident), the fellow that replaced the rope and
> I discussed
> this.
I have no idea what you're talking about and if this is some arcane
attempt to tie me to whoever switched your rope or whatever your general
rant is, I have heard of something like that but am not and never was
involved. Though the fact it seems to have happened to you doesn't
displease me a bit.
have taken
> the PMI
> and I was forced to seek him out. I claim that he left both and he had to seek me
> out.
You didn't seek me out and I didn't seek you out, because I was in no way
involved. I don't know what your game is Philip but you're just looking
more like a fool than ever.
> I still am a dues paying VPI Cave Club member. You were asked to leave and never
> return.
As I've said before, your president wrote a letter to that effect and it
was declared illegal and of no effect by the administration. I chose not
to come back to your meetings because your people had a ranting set up
just like the one you all put Bill Bussey thru over something that was
none of your biz to begin with. Since I saw Bill looking scared at the
impending violence as everyone took turns shouting at him, and since I
had already been pushed around by Fortney (your drunken enforcer), and
since female friends of mine had been assualted by Leiffer, I decided to
not be involved in anything like VPIG. Events since then have proven me
right: I quite often meet people who have had so many bad experiences
with VPIG that they also don't go back.
> Once again Ollie, you are the only person carrying the torch here. Once again
> these events did not happened yesterday but a decade ago.
So far nobody has apologized to me for any of the furor that surrounded
that, when I spoke up at the election. In fact it looked to me then from
the attitudes expressed that you would have preferred a rapist for VP
than to have been made aware of his status.
> Please list our current mis-deeds, we are tired of the old ones.
If you don't want the old ones re-hashed, don't bring them back up. You
opened up the whole topic again, so live with the consequences. I do not
accept any blame for replying to your fresh stirrings of old shit.
> regarding your dislike for the local county sticker office staff, local gas
> station operators, re-posts of articles on men's issues into unrelated
> threads, etc.
If you think these are topical, you go for it, though I'm sure folks
will merely wonder about your motives. If you don't like my take on local
events, don't read them.
> so many problems getting along with what I know to be good groups of
> people, over the years I have found that this happens with pretty much
> any group you become involved with.
Rash generalization. In fact I have a good many caving friends and we go
regularly. The problem for your perception of that is that having the
sort of friends you do blinds you to good people.
Hoyt McKagen
>
> Hoyt,
>
> I am just wondering. Didnt the doctor prescribe any pills for that
> attention deficite (sorry im illeterate and cant spell) disorder of
> yours?? And why the hell you arent taking them. It would make your
> life a lot simpler you know.
Hey Spencer, don't go projecting your own mental deficiencies onto me.
Philip Balister
>
> Philip Balister wrote:
> > voice what I know regarding Ollie/Hoyt/whatever 's ongoing campaign.
>
> load of really old crap .. to which I reply with part of the truth about
> the actual events, and you accuse me of having a campaign??
As noted the post here was accidental. Sorry. For obvious reasons I try
to avoid posting to this newsgroup. Well reasons obvious to me at least
:)
[deleted "material", read over quote to end]
> > During the aftermath I went in in Clover Hollow. Upon our return to the entrance
> > pit, we
> > found a piece of gold line instead of my PMI. I climbed the PMI. Recently (after
> > one
> > of McKagens rehashes of this incident), the fellow that replaced the rope and
> > I discussed
> > this.
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about and if this is some arcane
> attempt to tie me to whoever switched your rope or whatever your general
> rant is, I have heard of something like that but am not and never was
> involved. Though the fact it seems to have happened to you doesn't
> displease me a bit.
>
> have taken
> > the PMI
> > and I was forced to seek him out. I claim that he left both and he had to seek me
> > out.
>
> You didn't seek me out and I didn't seek you out, because I was in no way
> involved. I don't know what your game is Philip but you're just looking
> more like a fool than ever.
OK. Let me make this perfectly clear. Ollie/batwings/obycraky/Hoyt
McKagen
played no active role in, what a friend of mine calls, "The Great Clover
Hollow Massacre", or the rope replacement activity, which I will now
refer
to as "The Great Clover Hollow Massacre, Part Deux".
Is this clear to everyone? I am sorry I did not make this clearer
originally, I figured this would save the "perp" from periodic
appearances in this newsgroup. My intent was *not* to implicate Mr
McKagen in some way. Only
to shed some light on this ancient legend.
Interesting that you advocate exchanging ropes without permission.
Remember
, other than the fact that I knew I had painted a "kick me" sign on my
backside, we had no idea who placed the rope there, nor the condition
of the rope. Not even the quality of the rigging. Before you climb a
rope in this situation the group has a serious conversation about what
to do. One of the options is do not climb and wait for rescue. In this
situation, I climbed the rope and re-rigged the original rope.
(Apparently
some people think that climbing on goldline is challenging :).
[ more deleted "material" ]
Philip
rs...@vt.edu
wrote:
>>
>> Philip Balister wrote:
>... which I will now refer to as "The Great Clover Hollow Massacre, Part Deux".
In four part harmony. With color glossy pictures with circles and
arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaning what each one
was.
Ray
Beej Jørgensen
SEE: sensational vertical finger pointing
WITNESS: incredible stalagmitic power struggles
EXPLORE: fabulous subterrianian bureaucracies
Enter the world of organized caving today! If you don't, we'll kill you!
-Beej
Tony Brocklebank
If you haven't the bottle to take Hoyt on in public perhaps you should
refrain from sending "private" emails in response to his posts.
From this side of the Atlantic Hoyt's posts seem to be honest, even if at
times I don't agree with his sentiments. Your pathetic attempt to slag him
and then pretend it was a mistake, something you meant to send privately,
seems about as low as low gets.
Maybe this typifies US secrecy.
Tony
--
Website: www.laptopbits.co.uk
Email: to...@alpine.fsnet.co.uk
Telephone: +44 1704 228012
Philip Balister <k4...@arrl.net> wrote in message
news:39D4B069...@arrl.net...
> Hoyt McKagen wrote:
> >
> > Philip Balister wrote:
> > > voice what I know regarding Ollie/Hoyt/whatever 's ongoing campaign.
> >
> > Let's see ... I post something about caves in Arizona, you pop up with a
> > load of really old crap .. to which I reply with part of the truth about
> > the actual events, and you accuse me of having a campaign??
>
> As noted the post here was accidental. Sorry. For obvious reasons I try
> to avoid posting to this newsgroup. Well reasons obvious to me at least
> :)
>
> [deleted "material", read over quote to end]
>
> > > During the aftermath I went in in Clover Hollow. Upon our return to
the entrance
> > > pit, we
> > > found a piece of gold line instead of my PMI. I climbed the PMI.
Recently (after
> > > one
> > > of McKagens rehashes of this incident), the fellow that replaced the
rope and
> > > I discussed
> > > this.
> >
> > I have no idea what you're talking about and if this is some arcane
> > attempt to tie me to whoever switched your rope or whatever your general
> > rant is, I have heard of something like that but am not and never was
> > involved. Though the fact it seems to have happened to you doesn't
> > displease me a bit.
> >
> > have taken
> > > the PMI
> > > and I was forced to seek him out. I claim that he left both and he had
to seek me
> > > out.
> >
> > You didn't seek me out and I didn't seek you out, because I was in no
way
> > involved. I don't know what your game is Philip but you're just looking
> > more like a fool than ever.
>
> OK. Let me make this perfectly clear. Ollie/batwings/obycraky/Hoyt
> McKagen
> played no active role in, what a friend of mine calls, "The Great Clover
> Hollow Massacre", or the rope replacement activity, which I will now
> refer
> to as "The Great Clover Hollow Massacre, Part Deux".
>
Hoyt McKagen
> As noted the post here was accidental. Sorry. For obvious reasons I try
> to avoid posting to this newsgroup.
No matter whether it weas accidental or not, you still derided me for
opening a topic that in fact you opened.
> played no active role in, what a friend of mine calls, "The Great Clover
> Hollow Massacre", or the rope replacement activity, which I will now
> refer
> to as "The Great Clover Hollow Massacre, Part Deux".
Thank you.
> Interesting that you advocate exchanging ropes without permission.
If you can quote me on that it's worth $100 to you. I belive I said it
didn't displease me that it happened to you, but that's not the same
thing by a long shot.
> of the rope. Not even the quality of the rigging. Before you climb a
> rope in this situation the group has a serious conversation about what
> to do.
Did anyone suggest at the time that if you hadn't been such a dickhead
as to play rope/waterfall tricks on your pals you might not have been so
treated? IOW, your first choice for a perp was almost certainly someone
at VPIG.
Hoyt McKagen
>
> If you haven't the bottle to take Hoyt on in public perhaps you should
> refrain from sending "private" emails in response to his posts.
Hear hear!!
>
> From this side of the Atlantic Hoyt's posts seem to be honest, even if at
> times I don't agree with his sentiments.
Ah shit Tony you're just miffed because you didn't qualify for the free
ticket }>
> Your pathetic attempt to slag him
> and then pretend it was a mistake, something you meant to send privately,
> seems about as low as low gets.
Typical of Balister. Ya know he married my girlfriend behind my back too.
This is a guy so simple he actually doesn't know how to tighten his wheel
lug nuts ... I had to point this out to him one day, that judging from
the black powder being slung off all around they were decently loose. I
wouldn't be surprised if I got accused later of loosening them up, as
false accusations are part and parcel of VPIG activities. Witness Bill
Bussey's public flaming. And I'm still exposed to shitheads now and then
who fell for that lie about me breaking out someone's truck windows.
Again, the perp is certainly a VPIG member.
>
> Maybe this typifies US secrecy.
It typifies VPIG.
Tony Brocklebank
Like I say I'm not interested in people who want to take a snipe at others
behind their backs. If you've anything to say in reference to Hoyt's
postings here say it in public or leave me out of it. For the benefit of
anyone interested here's the text of the message you sent me direct this
afternoon, with a few comments added:
>Tony,
>
>Ollie/Hoyt (He used to post under Ollie then for some reason changed to
Hoyt
>a couple of years ago) lives in the same town I do. The best description
>I've heard of him was from a friends wife's sister, "Ollie? He's always
>having little wars with people". Her experience with him predated mine by
about 10
>years when she rode motorcycles.
>
He can call himself Mary for all I care. I'm happy to call him Hoyt, as is
everyone else, so why not drop the Ollie bit and save us all a bit of time.
Hoyt seems to think he was going out with your wife at some stage, this must
be the "experience" you mention.
>If you want to see how other people react to him try searching dejanews
>on his email address. He's a regular in several newsgroups.
>
I subscribe to a dozen or so newsgroups. I've never noticed Hoyt do much
other than express his opinion, that's what newsgroups are for. Like I say
there is often plenty of sense in what he says, that's good enough for me.
I'm not particularly interested in what other people think of him.
>Oddly enough, I'm not one of the secrecy freaks. Unfortunatly Ollie
>poisons the thread any time it somes up in this newsgroup.
>
No, Hoyt is on the side of openness, not secrecy. The thread usually
reaches a brick wall, because everyone seems to have very fixed opinions on
the subject. It's still worth airing now and again.
>I was born in England, in Bushey Heath just north of London. My parents
>went to Bristol and caved with the UBSS.
>
Poor sod, I'm not surprised you left. Every time I go to Bristol something
bad happens, last time the car got broken into and all my stuff nicked. Not
my favourite place either.
>Philip
Tony Brocklebank
> ticket }>
>
I did win the ticket, you're just too mean to send it :-)
I know there's a slight difficulty over the fact that I haven't actually
done the trips yet, but I did promise to correct this as soon as you send
the ticket.
Maybe I should start mailing people about you behind your back - I'm sure I
just saw you offer Mr Ballsiter $100 for something pretty straightforward.
One thing I hate it's rich Americans who don't send me cheques.
Hope your keeping a large wad of cash under the mattress for when everyone
arrives all at once!
Hoyt McKagen
> >I've heard of him was from a friends wife's sister, "Ollie? He's always
> >having little wars with people". Her experience with him predated mine by
> about 10
> >years when she rode motorcycles.
Another friend of friend thing; Phullup (That's 'Phullup-with-old-shite)
is fond of this sort of thing. The only woman I remember regularly riding
MC was in fact a lady I dated for years. Maybe if Phullup can name a
name I might remember her, but chances are she's no more reliable than he
is.
> Hoyt seems to think he was going out with your wife at some stage, this must
> be the "experience" you mention.
I didn't go out with her but we caved together regularly. She was too
fine for him by a long shot. I asked her once why she was dating him and
she said she liked the way he used his head. I think you can see reason
to wonder about that pronouncement, go figure.
Paul Montgomery
> Tony Brocklebank wrote:
> > >I've heard of him was from a friends wife's sister, "Ollie? He's always
> > >having little wars with people". Her experience with him predated mine
by
> > about 10
> > >years when she rode motorcycles.
>
> Another friend of friend thing; Phullup (That's 'Phullup-with-old-shite)
> is fond of this sort of thing. The only woman I remember regularly riding
> MC was in fact a lady I dated for years. Maybe if Phullup can name a
> name I might remember her, but chances are she's no more reliable than he
> is.
>
> > Hoyt seems to think he was going out with your wife at some stage, this
must
> > be the "experience" you mention.
>
> I didn't go out with her but we caved together regularly. She was too
> fine for him by a long shot. I asked her once why she was dating him and
> she said she liked the way he used his head. I think you can see reason
> to wonder about that pronouncement, go figure.
>
PStillman
Earth to name but one good thing.
Tony Brocklebank <to...@alpine.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8r5bcf$c9b$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Philip,
>
> Like I say I'm not interested in people who want to take a snipe at others
> behind their backs. If you've anything to say in reference to Hoyt's
> postings here say it in public or leave me out of it. For the benefit of
> anyone interested here's the text of the message you sent me direct this
> afternoon, with a few comments added:
>
> >Tony,
> >
> >Ollie/Hoyt (He used to post under Ollie then for some reason changed to
> Hoyt
> >a couple of years ago) lives in the same town I do. The best description
> >having little wars with people". Her experience with him predated mine by
> about 10
> >years when she rode motorcycles.
> >
>
is
> everyone else, so why not drop the Ollie bit and save us all a bit of
time.
must
> be the "experience" you mention.
>
> >on his email address. He's a regular in several newsgroups.
> >
>
> I subscribe to a dozen or so newsgroups. I've never noticed Hoyt do much
> other than express his opinion, that's what newsgroups are for. Like I
say
> there is often plenty of sense in what he says, that's good enough for me.
> I'm not particularly interested in what other people think of him.
>
> >Oddly enough, I'm not one of the secrecy freaks. Unfortunatly Ollie
> >poisons the thread any time it somes up in this newsgroup.
> >
>
> No, Hoyt is on the side of openness, not secrecy. The thread usually
> reaches a brick wall, because everyone seems to have very fixed opinions
on
> the subject. It's still worth airing now and again.
>
> >I was born in England, in Bushey Heath just north of London. My parents
> >went to Bristol and caved with the UBSS.
> >
>
> Poor sod, I'm not surprised you left. Every time I go to Bristol
something
> bad happens, last time the car got broken into and all my stuff nicked.
Not
> my favourite place either.
>
> >Philip
>
>
Tony Brocklebank
it cost me a wing mirror, a windscreen, a damaged wing and to be honest I
was surprised to be alive after been hit by something very big on the
motorway. The second time some bastard broke the back windows of the car
and nicked lots of stuff (although they missed a laptop!).
The police pointed out that they were members of a specialist car crime
unit, and they added proudly they were needed because Bristol had one of the
worst car crime records in the UK. They said I had no chance of getting my
stuff back. A month or two later they did recover it but that was the last
I heard of it - even Bristol police kept my gear!
I also have attended several of the recent Hidden Earth conferences,
including Leeds and Southport. Reading the current NCA/BCRA "how to create
an extra tier of boorocracy by adding a British Caving Partnership level
above the ones we already have" it seems that only about one in fifteen or
twenty cavers here bother with the conference. I've had my neck on the
block before on this newsgroup for daring to suggest that the conference
could do with a major overhaul, but the fact that it isn't very interesting
could have something to do with the poor turnout.
So if you think I going to risk life, limb and vehicle in Bristol to attend
yet another exactly the same BCRA conference with even less people than last
year (only this time it'll be the fuel crisis not the organisers fault)
think again.
Glad you enjoyed it though - how many have you been to now?
Cheers,
Tony
--
Website: www.laptopbits.co.uk
Email: to...@alpine.fsnet.co.uk
Telephone: +44 1704 228012
PStillman <psbr...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
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PStillman
years, but i enjoyed it very much and intend going next year.
Public transport is very good here (Bristol).
Cheers
Paul.
Tony Brocklebank
Public transport? Southern concept, we don't really have any.
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PStillman <psbr...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
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