Utah caves
Steve Taylor
locations, could someone please direct me to the appropriate people?
Thanks!
--
Steve Taylor
29460
sjta...@mail.inhs.uiuc.edu
Steve Taylor
>
> I need to get in contact with people who know Utah caves and their
> locations, could someone please direct me to the appropriate people?
> Thanks!
convention, more a research issue.
Hoyt McKagen
>
> Steve Taylor wrote:
> Did I say Utah? I meant Idaho! This is not related to upcoming
> convention, more a research issue.
try these:
ID, Ampitheater Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: The Watchman, Sh
#43113-D4,
Coords: 432237N 1132554W
ID, Bear Trap Cave, Blaine Cnty (16013), Map: Bear Trap Cave, Sh
#42113-H3,
Coords: 425902N 1132107W
ID, Beauty Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: Inferno Cone, Sh #43113-D5,
Coords:
432642N 1133125W
ID, Boy Scout Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: Inferno Cone, Sh #43113-D5,
Coords: 432642N 1133132W
ID, Cave Draw, valley, Owyhee Cnty (16073), Map: Cave Draw, Sh #42115-D6,
Coords: 422546N 1153730W, SCoords: 422250N 1153937W
ID, Creons Cave, Power Cnty (16077), Map: Pillar Butte, Sh #42113-H2,
Coords:
425740N 1131307W
ID, Crystal Ice Cave, Power Cnty (16077), Map: Pillar Butte, Sh
#42113-H2,
Coords: 425705N 1131253W
ID, Dead Horse Cave, Gooding Cnty (16047), Map: McKinney Butte, Sh
#43114-A7,
Coords: 430043N 1145006W
ID, Dewdrop Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: Inferno Cone, Sh #43113-D5,
Coords:
432639N 1133140W
ID, Eureka Cave, Elmore Cnty (16039), Map: Reverse, Sh #43115-A5, Coords:
430723N 1153423W
ID, Fissure Cave, Blaine Cnty (16013), Map: Bear Park East, Sh #43113-B3,
Coords: 431317N 1131603W
ID, Formation Cave, Caribou Cnty (16029), Map: Soda Springs, Sh
#42111-F5,
Coords: 424138N 1113312W
ID, Higby Cave, Ada Cnty (16001), Map: Christmas Mountain, Sh #43116-C2,
Coords: 431744N 1160754W
ID, Horseshoe Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: The Watchman, Sh #43113-D4,
Coords: 432647N 1132952W
ID, Indian Cave, Twin Falls Cnty (16083), Map: Browns Bench North, Sh
#42114-
B7, Coords: 420942N 1144546W
ID, Kimama Butte Cave, Lincoln Cnty (16063), Map: Kimama Butte, Sh
#42113-G8,
Coords: 424613N 1135231W
ID, Kuna Cave, Ada Cnty (16001), Map: Kuna, Sh #43116-D4, Coords: 432444N
1162656W
ID, Lariat Cave, Power Cnty (16077), Map: Pillar Butte, Sh #42113-H2,
Coords:
425505N 1131128W
ID, Last Chance Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: The Watchman, Sh
#43113-D4,
Coords: 432649N 1132942W
ID, Lava River Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: The Watchman, Sh #43113-D4,
Coords: 432655N 1132939W
ID, Middle Butte Cave, Bingham Cnty (16011), Map: Middle Butte, Sh
#43112-D6,
Coords: 433024N 1124248W
ID, Moonshiners Cave, Bingham Cnty (16011), Map: Middle Butte, Sh
#43112-D6,
Coords: 433009N 1123845W
ID, Moss Cave, Power Cnty (16077), Map: Pillar Butte, Sh #42113-H2,
Coords:
425243N 1131229W
ID, Moss Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: The Watchman, Sh #43113-D4,
Coords:
432236N 1132600W
ID, Needles Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: Inferno Cone, Sh #43113-D5,
Coords:
432649N 1133003W
ID, Seventeenmile Cave, Bonneville Cnty (16019), Map: Butterfly Butte, Sh
#43112-E3, Coords: 433233N 1122113W
ID, Snowshoe Cave, Owyhee Cnty (16073), Map: Bedstead Ridge, Sh
#42116-D8,
Coords: 422734N 1165327W
ID, Sullivans Cave, Power Cnty (16077), Map: Mosby Butte, Sh #43113-A2,
Coords:
430019N 1131112W
ID, Surprise Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: Inferno Cone, Sh #43113-D5,
Coords:
432648N 1133136W
ID, Wilson Butte Cave, Jerome Cnty (16053), Map: Star Lake, Sh #42114-G2,
Coords: 424713N 1141312W
ID, Cave Canyon, valley, Bonneville, Teton Cnty (16019 16081), Map:
Stouts
Mountain, Sh #43111-E3, Coords: 433621N 1111522W, SCoords: 433729N
1111624W,
Targhee NF, AKA: Crag Canyon (US-M104/Targhee NF:Teton Basin RD/1984)
ID, Cave Canyon, valley, Cassia Cnty (16031), Map: Buckhorn Canyon, Rams
Horn
Ridge, Sh #42114-C1 42114-C2, Coords: 421621N 1140401W, SCoords: 421531N
1140746W, Sawtooth NF
ID, Cave Creek, stream, Lemhi Cnty (16059), Map: Aparejo Point, Sh
#44114-H6,
Coords: 445328N 1144008W, SCoords: 445527N 1143939W, Salmon NF
ID, Cave Creek, stream, Washington Cnty (16087), Map: Brownlee Dam (OR),
Neil
Gulch, Sh #44116-G8 44116-F8, Coords: 444620N 1165820W, SCoords: 444325N
1165714W, Payette NF
ID, Cave Creek, stream, Valley, Idaho Cnty (16085 16049), Map: Vinegar
Hill,
Papoose Peak, Sh #45114-B8 45114-B7, Coords: 450757N 1145716W, SCoords:
451426N
1145043W, Payette NF
ID, Cave Creek, stream, Clearwater Cnty (16035), Map: Clarke Mountain,
Pot
Mountain, Sh #46115-F5 46115-F4, Coords: 464131N 1153254W, SCoords:
464112N
1152937W, Clearwater NF
ID, Cave Gulch, valley, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: Methodist Creek, Sh
#43113-H4,
Coords: 435747N 1132645W, SCoords: 435816N 1132457W, Challis NF, Stat:
BGN 1972
ID, Cave Gulch, valley, Nez Perce Cnty (16069), Map: Jim Creek Butte
(OR),
Wapshilla Creek, Frye Point, Sh #45116-H8 45116-H7 46116-A7, Coords:
455905N
1165403W, 455955N 1165228W, SCoords: 460125N 1165025W, Wallowa-Whitman NF
ID, Cave Gulch, valley, Cassia Cnty (16031), Map: Blue Hill, Oakley, Ibex
Peak,
Sh #42113-A8 42113-B8 42114-A1, Coords: 420728N 1135618W, 420730N
1135620W,
SCoords: 420441N 1140213W, Sawtooth NF, AKA: Coal Banks Creek, Owens
Corral
Creek, Stat: BGN 1971
ID, Cave Lake, lake, Kootenai Cnty (16055), Map: Medimont, Sh #47116-D5,
Coords: 472756N 1163627W, Coeur d'Alene NF
ID, Cave Point, summit, Clearwater Cnty (16035), Map: Clarke Mountain, Sh
#46115-F5, Coords: 464236N 1153200W, Ele: 4588, Clearwater NF
ID, Cave Rock, pillar, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: Blizzard Mountain North,
Sh
#43113-E6, Coords: 433405N 1133858W, Challis NF
ID, Cave Bay, bay, Kootenai Cnty (16055), Map: Harrison, Worley, Sh
#47116-D7
47116-D8, Coords: 472803N 1165229W, 472802N 1165239W, Coeur d'Alene NF,
AKA:
Hazelgale Bay (US-M120), Stat: BGN 1982, DList: 8201, Ref: US-T121
ID, Hidden Mouth Cave, Butte Cnty (16023), Map: Methodist Creek, Sh
#43113-H4,
Coords: 435722N 1132620W, Challis NF
ID, Minnetonka Cave, Franklin Cnty (16041), Map: Egan Basin, Sh
#42111-A5,
Coords: 420515N 1113105W, Cache NF
ID, Paris Ice Cave, Bear Lake Cnty (16007), Map: Paris Peak, Sh
#42111-B5,
Coords: 421354N 1113337W, Ele: 7815, Cache NF
ID, West Fork Cave Creek, stream, Valley, Idaho Cnty (16085 16049), Map:
Vinegar Hill, Sh #45114-B8, Coords: 450757N 1145714W, SCoords: 451213N
1145852W, Payette NF
ID, Cave Campsite, locale, Lemhi Cnty (16059), Map: Ramey Hill, Sh
#44114-G7,
Coords: 445005N 1144731W, Ele: 4080, Boise NF, EDate: 9210, Ref:
US-M125/1979
ID, Roberson Cave, Owyhee Cnty (16073), Map: Hot Springs, Sh #42115-G6,
Coords:
424817N 1154332W
Best wishes,
Hoyt
Belfab CNC: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
Last words => "Hey guys, watch this!" <= of a redneck
Steve Taylor
>>
>> I need to get in contact with people who know Utah caves and
>> their locations, could someone please direct me to the
>> appropriate people?
>> Thanks!
> convention, more a research issue.
Hoyt said:
>
>try these:
>
>ID,
Thanks, but I don't need cave locations, I need a person who knows about
caves in a particular place in Idaho.
Khcaver
Great, now there are tons of people with cave locations. And for absolutely no
reason... Nice job Dude!
Steve Taylor
>
> Great, now there are tons of people with cave locations. And for absolutely no
> reason... Nice job Dude!
I never asked for locations, I was seeking a knowledgable contact
person. Just so you are clear on that.
I don't know why Hoyt dumps locations at the slighest 'provocation'. In
the case of my request, you could interpret his posting as a misguided
(but NOT innocent) attempt to help, which is a nice change from his
usual use of data as a threat. The end result is the same - as you have
noted, a whole bunch of people have cave locations.
Fortunately, Hoyt's data is not particularly interesting - many
loclities are just names of valleys, streams, or other geographic
features. Those that are actual caves are typically marked on topos or
in the Gazetteers (they are MUCH worse offendors than Hoyt). The
overwhelming consensus of those in the United States that use
'alt.caving' is that cave locations should not be posted here, and there
is no doubt that our experience would be more pleasant, and even more
productive, if they weren't posted. This would in no way preclude the
exchange of information between individuals via private email.
Hoyt McKagen
>
> Great, now there are tons of people with cave locations. And for absolutely no
> reason... Nice job Dude!
I know it is of no interest to you or those who think like you, but there
is a reason for that and it's good enough for me: someone asked for them.
You may be new here, so I'll explain my policy: until someone proves
secrecy preserves caves, I will feel free to offer locations. And when
someone flames or pisses or moans about that, I put up more of them. This
seems to me to have had a beneficial effect on the NG in that there is a
lot less bitching about locations since I began this policy.
As for proof of bad effects of publishing locations, I devised and
offered a questionaire to the caving community, with the idea of doing
multi-variate analysis on the data. That I think should have settled it.
Instead, a good many members of the caving community advocated ignoring
the questionaire, hence I had very poor response rate. That means these
folks would rather stick to prejudice than actually find out a valid
answer. FWIW, the two biggest factors in cave destruction are
probably convenience of access and length of time the cave is known of,
not whether the location is known or published. BTW, I have published
nothing yet about locations whch have not been published by any number of
other sources. Oh yes, I do include in the data locations of my own
projects and any new caves which my buddies and I find; so far no-one has
been out there as a result ravishing them. Enjoy,
Hoyt
--
Belfab CNC: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving- http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
News Flash: Bill Clinton burnt by cigar
dlk
due to indiscriminate posting of locations and deal with the
other problem of posting locations:
You just might get somebody killed or injured!
The "system" as it stands now, requires a novice caver to
approach other cavers for cave locations. In doing so,
if Mr/Ms Novice has picked a cave that is beyond their
abilities at least we have a sporting chance of dissuading
them from trying it on their own.
Do I have to spell the rest out, or can you figure it for
yourself?
dlk
35562
Dave Hopf
> You may be new here, so I'll explain my policy: until someone proves
> secrecy preserves caves, I will feel free to offer locations. And when
> someone flames or pisses or moans about that, I put up more of them.
Your cave locations are lame. They aren't much good to anyone without a
GPS and the ones that I verified off by an average of half a mile. Your
distribution of cave locations might even be a benefit to cave
conservation because they are so inaccurate. Anybody who uses your
information to find caves will quickly find another interest!
> This
> seems to me to have had a beneficial effect on the NG in that there is a
> lot less bitching about locations since I began this policy.
Either that or the NG has become weary of conversing with bridge trolls.
> As for proof of bad effects of publishing locations, I devised and
> offered a questionaire to the caving community, with the idea of doing
> multi-variate analysis on the data. That I think should have settled it.
You are correct, your posting of cave locations has little negative
effect on the caves, but not for the reasons you imagine. Your survey
failed to address the fact that the cave locations you have published
are not accurate enough for someone to use to find the caves.
So, keep posting those cave locations, Hoyt! Pretty soon you won't need
to do any more location=cave damage surveys because they will all be
gated up and the point will be moot.
Dave
Hoyt McKagen
> Your cave locations are lame. They aren't much good to anyone without a
> GPS and the ones that I verified off by an average of half a mile.
I can find trhem using plots of the point on any USGS map and I expect
that's what most people will do.
> effect on the caves, but not for the reasons you imagine. Your survey
> failed to address the fact that the cave locations you have published
> are not accurate enough for someone to use to find the caves.
I found every cave I've looked for using them, and usually it's within
the 50m accuracy of GPS. I do better, however finding them from terrain
features using the topos.
I suspect your opinion is merely prophylactic, in that you seem to be
(like Cindy - radioactive caves, indeed) trying to discourage others from
using them.
>
> So, keep posting those cave locations, Hoyt! Pretty soon you won't need
> to do any more location=cave damage surveys because they will all be
> gated up and the point will be moot.
Seriously, everytime people find out that I have locations, I get several
requests, most often from scientific types doing bacteria surveys or
geologists working on academic projects. These guys seem to be very
disappointed with cavers, so they regard me highly. Since I am also
disappointed with cavers, the relationships are of mutual benefit. I am
now in fact working with a guy who is into cancer research. My mom had
cancer. Need I say more?
Best wishes
Hoyt McKagen
> You just might get somebody killed or injured!
HAHA, I accept that blame to the same degree that anyone does who tells
someone where a recreational sporting site is. IOW, you're on your own.
Please, don't try to save me from myself; like most adults I am able to
take care of the details. if I am willing to accept the 'dangers' I am
also willing to assume others are.
>
> The "system" as it stands now, requires a novice caver to
> approach other cavers for cave locations.
Not so. In libraries all over the country are books with locations of
myriad caves, though most likley a good number of those have been
defaced or stolen by dipshit secretist cavers.
> Do I have to spell the rest out, or can you figure it for
> yourself?
Have heard all the arguments, big guy, so until some novice comes forward
and blames me for his being injured, I will continue to ignore you. And
BTW, if that ever does happen, like all organized cavers, I will most
likely be able to find a much more proximate cause for the problem. (Or
maybe as in the case of Alexis (who died because no-one belayed her
rappell) Hampton's friends, I will simply stone-wall. Maybe I'll even
turn your argument around and remark that if the wanna-be caver were
disappointed, he might instead drown or die skydiving ... so how do you
know I'm not saving lives? Yes, it's a ridiculous arguement, exactly on
par with yours.
dlk
"lost it" as they say. This is addressed to those who think as
you do but still possess _some_ amount of sense...
Allow me to introduce Fred WannabeCaver.
Fred has very little experience with caves, he's been to just
a few and they were easy...
Fred has a computer with 'net access. Looks for and finds alt.caving.
Fred spots one of your posts with locations. Fred prints out said
posting, sticks it in his pack, and off he goes into the hills.
Fred arrives at one of the caves on your post.
Fred trips over a rock and kills himself.
Authorities at the scene examine everything meticulously, finding
your post.
Guess who's gonna get hit with the wrongful death lawsuit filed by
Fred's survivors and heirs? It ain't gonna be Fred's ISP nor yours,
or the phone company, they're covered. Can't sue USENET.
Tag - you're it.
Sure, the suit may be without merit, and possibly will be dismissed.
In the interim, you've got a lawyer to feed many, many Kilo-dollars to.
It could take years.
Then there's this "little" problem: How are you going to sleep at
night? You contributed, in no small way, to the death of another.
You *know* this. So do others.
Got the picture? End of just one plausible scenario.
And now back to you, H.M.:
I'm not gonna waste bandwidth on a point by point debate with you as
any first year philosophy student can handle the demolition of your
arguments. But I do thank you for providing an excellent response
against compassion, decency, and common sense. The world
needs people like you - most times a positive image is used to
educate people; every now and again one finds a superb example
of what not to emulate. Thank you so much for being so superb....
you are a wonderful teaching aid.
Reply as I know you will - you obviously have this deep-seated need
to get the last word in - I won't waste yours or my time/bandwidth with
mine. You've served _my_ purpose well.
dlk
35562
Doc Morgan
> dlk wrote:
> > You just might get somebody killed or injured!
>
> HAHA, I accept that blame to the same degree that anyone does who tells
> someone where a recreational sporting site is. IOW, you're on your own.
> Please, don't try to save me from myself; like most adults I am able to
> take care of the details. if I am willing to accept the 'dangers' I am
> also willing to assume others are.
Hoyt,
I admire your persistence mate. But do yourself a favour. Come live in Europe
put all that stuff behind you. Here anyone can go out and buy the guidebook
and if they die as a result, then that's just Darwin in action or real
unlucky.
Jim
The comment below is just about the most insensitive piece of total bullshit I have ever heard from you and that's saying a lot. You weren't there for the incident, the rescue or the investigation. You should keep your comments confined to something you know something about.
Jim Wilbanks
Hoyt McKagen wrote in message <360A61...@iname.com>...
Hoyt McKagen
Thanks, we all needed that.
I did cave in England once, Yorkshire to be precise. Wife (then fiancee)
and I were shown Lower Long Churn by a nice chap named Paul Norman. I
liked it rather more than she did, but of course the best part was the
helpful folks at Bernies and other sports shops, who seemed willing
enough to just drop everything and show us caves. It's a bit more
surprising that, despite that there are few not known and hence
user-traffic should be a greater concern, no-one ever mentioned secrecy.
best wishes,
Hoyt McKagen
>
> Ollie;
> The comment below is just about the most insensitive piece of total bullshit I have ever heard from you and that's saying a lot. You weren't
there for the incident
It may be insensitive, but it is damn true. It was distinctly stated by
those who were that she had no-one belaying, and that is a serious
omission. I also heard she was fond of fast descents and I suspected she
short-rigged the rack in light of weight of the long rope. That would be
two things worthy of changing, yes?
As for boorishness, however, nothing beats the treatment I got online
from cavers of a local group, the VPIG, who tag-flamed me for everything
I put on list or NG, for *years*, despite a perfect safety record and
excellent regard for education and scietific caving. One example: I had
reams of shit come out over taking a landowner and grandson to their own
frigging cave. One comment was that by writing about it, I had inspired
interest from cavers all over the world. (And, no I have never
revealed it's location.) That may be so, but the particular critic in
that case had been the one who had photos published in the 95 convention
manual. (And BTW, since no-one had been there from the flamer-grotto, by
the argument above, they had no right to comment either.) Can anyone
spell 'hypocrit', or are we to suppose the photo spread gathered no
interest?
BTW, their real motives for all that seem to be related to my reporting
along with consistant alcohol violations (re-selling liquer to minors in
guise of an illegal raffle), a serial rapist in their ranks.
There would be many examples, to many for me to list and to my mind
equally stupid ... but the point of course, is that if they have a right
to present that sort of flaming for reporting simple, reasonable and safe
ordinary caving, then I certainly have the right to criticize for a death
which could have been prevented. The worst part of that, BTW, is Reid
Hampton's note to me which indicated he felt no lack of care and wouldn't
have done anything differently. For that, I have already awarded him my
'Why not quit caving?' Award. That doesn't indicate any lack of sympathy
(I lost a son once to disease and wouldn't want to see anyone PUT in that
sort of place, even if he put himself there) but is simply calling the
facts as I see them.
Best wishes
Jim
Hoyt McKagen wrote in message <360E52...@iname.com>...
>Jim wrote:
>>
>> Ollie;
>> The comment below is just about the most insensitive piece of total bullshit I have ever heard from you and that's saying a lot. You weren't
>there for the incident
>
>It may be insensitive, but it is damn true. It was distinctly stated by
>those who were that she had no-one belaying, and that is a serious
>omission. I also heard she was fond of fast descents and I suspected she
>short-rigged the rack in light of weight of the long rope. That would be
>two things worthy of changing, yes?
Dave Hopf
> It may be insensitive, but it is damn true. It was distinctly stated by
> those who were that she had no-one belaying, and that is a serious
> omission. I also heard she was fond of fast descents and I suspected she
> short-rigged the rack in light of weight of the long rope. That would be
> two things worthy of changing, yes?
1) likes to stir things up.
> As for boorishness, however, nothing beats the treatment I got online
> from cavers of a local group, the VPIG, who tag-flamed me for everything
> I put on list or NG, for *years*, despite a perfect safety record and
> excellent regard for education and scietific caving.
2) likes to complain about how he is treated.
> One comment was that by writing about it, I had inspired
> interest from cavers all over the world.
3) likes to pat himself on the back.
If your deductions regarding Alexis' accident are correct, it is just as
obvious that you lack self esteem and possess an incredibly small willy.
Dave
Hoyt McKagen
> Ollie, if you took the time to research your facts, you would realize that bottom belay's don't work in pits over 150ft.
Not true; long rope-weights alone can stop people, or they wouldn't have
to lift rope to get going at places like say Golindrinas. I got broken in
to the notion of bottom belays, BTW, on a 170' pit. You talking about
rope stretch adding slack? <=Just get a new grip.
>Alexis had come to a complete stop fifety-eighty feet ...
First I heard of it. Doesn't matter, because she did lose control for
whatever reason and even by your standards, the belay would have worked
at that hgt.
> The only thing that makes sense is that she was hit by debris from the
>rigging point which is a constant problem there.
A belay wouldn't have worked because she was hit by debris?
>It's easy to point the finger and be judgemental when you don't know the
>facts. I repeat, you weren't there, you weren't on the rescue. You have
>no right to make Reid's suffering prolonged.
Reid may be suffering, but since he rejected any and all of my thinking
in a personal note to me, I haven't added to any of it. The sad part here
isn't only that someone died, but that no-one is learning from it; Reid
also said he wouldn't change his practice and no-one else seems to be
looking at the facts either.
As for my information, I'm privy to as much hashing around as you are,
and it's easy to have spotted, in that light, the glaring safety
omission. Seriously, is there anyone who believes, all other things being
equal, that she would still have died if she had been bottom belayed?
Hoyt
Scott Linn
: I did cave in England once, Yorkshire to be precise. Wife (then fiancee)
: and I were shown Lower Long Churn by a nice chap named Paul Norman. I
: liked it rather more than she did, but of course the best part was the
: helpful folks at Bernies and other sports shops, who seemed willing
: enough to just drop everything and show us caves. It's a bit more
: surprising that, despite that there are few not known and hence
: user-traffic should be a greater concern, no-one ever mentioned secrecy.
It seems to me that I've been hearing about more and more UK caves being
gated recently, to protect them. In addition, I recently talked to a visiting
Brit who mentioned going back to a cave he last visited many years ago
(decades?), and he was very depressed at the damage done by the large amount
of visitation.
Apparently, at least some people are questioning the status quo in the UK.
Glawackus
>From: Hoyt McKagen <hap...@iname.com>
>
>Jim wrote:
>> Ollie, if you took the time to research your facts, you would realize that
>bottom belay's don't work in pits over 150ft.
>
>
An 1,150' pit is only 150' deep once you're down the first 1000', no? Hoyt is
right that a bottom belay may be effective, so long as the rapeller is not
already out of control and going too fast to deal with slack resulting from
rope stretch.
>> The only thing that makes sense is that she was hit by debris from the
>>rigging point which is a constant problem there.
>
>A belay wouldn't have worked because she was hit by debris?
IMHO injuries while on rope are the only rational reason for bottom belays.
Poor technique should be dealt with on short rappels on the surface. I
appreciate people being nervous, but maybe that means they need more practice.
Since the bottom belay puts the belayer at risk, is the chance of an injury
while on rope high enough to justify the risk to the belayer? How manypeople
are injured on rope, but are actually saved by bottom belays, and how many
belayers are injured?
My observations have been that many people using a rack don't use their hand to
spread the bars. The "braking hand" should really just be along for the ride;
the work gets done by controlling bar spacing. This also provides some margin
of safety in the event that an injury causes the rapeller to let go, as the
bars will closeup which will help slow the rappel. Those people using figure
8's areSOL, which may be a good reason not to use them.
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. Or it might just be to
generate discussion.
Christopher
Cindy Kay Heazlit wrote in message <6usd05$q...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>...
>
>Bottom belays are a fallacy on long drops. They've been abandoned by
>most of the caving community because the danger of being hit by rock
>fall is higher than the danger of losing control. There are other ways
>to safety a rappel.
>
>Cindy Heazlit
The main thing I think is needed for a safe rappel is plain old common sense
and allot of training time on rope. Me and a couple of my caving buddies
have been vertical caving for years now and we are all properly trained on
vertical techniques, but our motto is if you can safely stay out of the fall
zone then why not give a belay? I know of some people that would cuss you up
and down if you even tried to be prepared to give a belay. Plum stupidity I
think. Whoever caves with me or my friends and a pit is involved and you can
stay out of the fall zone, you are going to get a bottom belay and I would
expect the same from them. Its not about being "scared" of rappelling, its
has something to do with respect, I feel.
I myself have not done a pit over 250 ft and I really have no desire to do
anything deeper unless it is necessary (something like surveying).
Christopher Allen
Steve L.
<in response to what someone else wrote:>
: >An 1,150' pit is only 150' deep once you're down the first
: >1000', no? Hoyt is right that a bottom belay may be effective,
: >so long as the rapeller is not already out of control and going
: >too fast to deal with slack resulting from rope stretch.
: The above statement is incorrect.
The above statement is partly correct...the wieght of the
rappeler has already taken out a great deal of stretch
in the rope, so even on a long drop as you near the bottom,
it seems a bottom belay might be of some use.
: the danger of being hit by rock
: fall is higher than the danger of losing control.
Well, at a drop where the above statement is true, a bottom
belay is not the best option. In any other pit, why _not_
bottom belay? As many here are fond of saying, the best
safety measure is to use common sense.
--
Steve LePera /\v/\ Reacting Flow Lab
Graduate Student /\v/\ Randolph Hall
Mechanical Engineering (540) 231-5882 Virginia Tech
Remove spaces and spam to reply to: leperas @ spam . vt . edu
Triumph Daytona 1971, Yamaha Seca 750, 1981 VPI #351 NSS#40805
Frederick A Weihe
Cindy Kay Heazlit <chea...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>The problem with a bottom belay on a long drop (any drop) is that you
>have to pull the slack out of the _entire_ rope for it to be effective.
> This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for rope stretch. Many
>static ropes have a rope stretch of 2%. You have to get rid of that
>stretch for the bottom belay to be effective. So for a 100 foot drop,
>you have to pull in 2 feet of rope - easy. For a 1000 foot drop, you
>have to pull in 20 feet of rope stretch. Whoops! Who can do that fast
>enough to save a friend in free fall?
Hmmm....I don't think I understand. Why would I leave all that slack in
the rope if I'm giving a bottom belay? Why wouldn't I take in as much
slack as possible, while still allowing the rappeller to feed rope? After
all, the claim is that the bottom belay fails (i.e. rope can continue to
feed) even if <20' of slack is taken up....so why not take up that amount
of slack to begin with? (This is not a rhetorical question; there might
be a very good reason why not!)
For the record, though, I'm not a big fan of bottom belays. ALmost
everyone I climb/cave with backs up their rappel with a prussick or
auto-block. Those that don't are making that choice themselves. I agree
strongly with those here that have said that a 150' pit is not the place
to learn to feel secure on rappel. Except for objective dangers like
rockfall or hypothermia in a waterfall rappel (in which case not only
would you want to stop the rappel, but also without much delay lower the
victim), it's hard to see what the bottom belay would be needed for, with
experienced rappellers. Maybe I'm not thinking of all the possible
scenarios, though. Maybe someone rappelling with a patient or a heavy
pack? An injured or sick rappeller?
Fritz
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Frederick A. Weihe Graduate Student Emeritus;
we...@umich.edu Center for Ultrafast Optical Science
H:3134811289 W:3137634875 F:3137634876
so subtly is the fume of life designed
to clarify the pulse and cloud the mind -millay
Hoyt McKagen
>Glawakus said:
> >An 1,150' pit is only 150' deep once you're down the first
> >1000', no? Hoyt is right that a bottom belay may be effective,
> >so long as the rapeller is not already out of control and going
> >too fast to deal with slack resulting from rope stretch.
>
> The above statement is incorrect.
> pulling it so tight that the pressure against the descender increases.
BS. The belayer must be able to control a descent with much less than a
body weight, as the descender can control his own descent w/ one hand.
Hence one need not remove all stretch from below, but only a small
portion of it. In fact, as I belay, by standing to one side and taking in
the extra rope as the descending person comes down, I notice the
increasing angle of the rope alone will often stop the descent and I
actually have to feed rope back.
> This increases friction, which in turn stops the rappel.
True.
> The problem with a bottom belay on a long drop (any drop) is that you
> have to pull the slack out of the _entire_ rope for it to be effective.
> This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for rope stretch.
Not quite. You have to remove enough slack below to apply extra tension
to the descender. This is quite different from removing all the stretch
in the rope, because the descending individual does that for you above
himself. It is also different than the stretch from the full weight of
the descending person, because it doesn't take a whole body weight to
control the descent; if it did no-one could control his descent with one
hand. <=Carried to the logical conclusion, if the opposite were true, one
wouldn't even use a descender.
> static ropes have a rope stretch of 2%. You have to get rid of that
> stretch for the bottom belay to be effective. So for a 100 foot drop,
> you have to pull in 2 feet of rope - easy. For a 1000 foot drop, you
> have to pull in 20 feet of rope stretch. Whoops! Who can do that fast
> enough to save a friend in free fall?
While the person is high, you have plenty of time and when the person is
low you have little extra slack. I see no problem taking up 2% of the
rope stretch anyway as it simply piles up; the only extra effort involved
would come from standing to one side, requiring you to pull it over.
However, if the person descends at a safe rate of say 10 ft/sec you have
.2 ft/sec of extra rope. Even is he descends at 100 ft/sec (75 MPH), that
is only 2 ft/sec of extra rope. I can toss a baseball probably at about
60 MPH, IE can move my limbs at 40 times that rate of slacking-up, so
where's the problem in making the motions? Cindy may be too slow if her
thinking is evidence, but that won't be hard for most of us.
> Bottom belays are a fallacy on long drops. They've been abandoned by
> most of the caving community because the danger of being hit by rock
> fall is higher than the danger of losing control.
You stand in rock-fall zone to belay? That is simply stupid. Also, I
don't see any caving communities out here abandoning them. I always ask
and most often belay anyway.
> There are other ways
> to safety a rappel.
What are they? <=Serious question. Is there anyone who really believes
Alexis would be dead if she'd been belayed OR saftied by any other
means??
Cindy, I have wondered about your philosophy before and now your
expertise and motives. Are you really suggesting that we should abandon a
proven, safe practice for nearly every if not all occasions, because it
is not in your superficial opinion effective? Or, since you by evidence
haven't thought this out completely, is it merely knee-jerk reflex to
something *I* said? ... Whichever it is, you're quite a bit stranger in
your thinking than it's probably possible for you to realize from inside
that.
Hoyt
--
Walt Pirie
wrote:
>In <19980929234632...@ng-cr1.aol.com> glaw...@aol.com
>(Glawackus) writes:
>>
>>
>>>From: Hoyt McKagen <hap...@iname.com>
>>
>>>
>>>Jim wrote:
>>>> Ollie, if you took the time to research your facts, you
>>>> would realize that bottom belay's don't work in pits over
>>>> 150ft.
>>>
>
>>An 1,150' pit is only 150' deep once you're down the first
>>1000', no? Hoyt is right that a bottom belay may be effective,
>>so long as the rapeller is not already out of control and going
>>too fast to deal with slack resulting from rope stretch.
>>
>
>The above statement is incorrect.
>
>A bottom belay works by taking out all the stretch in a rope and
>pulling it so tight that the pressure against the descender increases.
>This increases friction, which in turn stops the rappel.
>
>The problem with a bottom belay on a long drop (any drop) is that you
>have to pull the slack out of the _entire_ rope for it to be effective.
> This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for rope stretch. Many
>static ropes have a rope stretch of 2%. You have to get rid of that
>stretch for the bottom belay to be effective. So for a 100 foot drop,
>you have to pull in 2 feet of rope - easy. For a 1000 foot drop, you
>have to pull in 20 feet of rope stretch. Whoops! Who can do that fast
>enough to save a friend in free fall?
>
>Bottom belays are a fallacy on long drops. They've been abandoned by
>most of the caving community because the danger of being hit by rock
>fall is higher than the danger of losing control. There are other ways
>to safety a rappel.
>
>Cindy Heazlit
Whew. What a lot of nonsense is being spouted on this thread. Cindy:
since when do you speak for "most of the caving community"? And
whoever said bottom belays are no good over 150 ft is way off base. We
teach and use bottom belays at all depths, and have plenty of
practical experience to know they are effective. Hoyt is absolutely
correct in his analysis that the rappeller takes out the stretch on
the way and that you don't need to take all or even most of the
remaining stretch out of the rope to begin to have some effect. One of
the best examples I know of happened at one of the early Bridge Days
in WV. A couple of years before her death, Sarah Corey decided to
rappell the bridge (800+ ft.) Unfortunately she was really no longer
in shape of handling a drop of that magnitude. For that reason and
others, she lost control pretty early into the drop. While it took
considerable effort, a bottom belay successfully stopped her and saved
her life.
While it may be a bit presumptuous on Hoyt's part to state Alexia
would have been saved by a bottom belay (but when did that ever stop
Hoyt?), nevertheless, I have always tended to think that myself,
although I've never said so before.
During the initial discussions on that unfortunate accident, I recall
that issue being raised, and rejected outright with the off-hand claim
that TAG people scorn bottom belays. I thought then and still think
they are wrong. Depending on the circumstances, which I don't recall
in detail, there's a good chance it could have made the difference,
even if only partially successful.
There's a hell of a lot of arrogance arises whenever this topic comes
up, by people who claim the rappeller should be experienced enough to
control all situations alone. I don't care how experienced you are.
Ever hear of a heart attack? or a severe cramp? or a rock fall numbing
your arm? or any number of unforseen circumstances that may render the
most experienced vertical caver temporarily unable to control the
rappell.
Walt
Caver Dave
Walt Pirie <nospam....@vt.edu> wrote in
> There's a hell of a lot of arrogance arises whenever this topic comes
> up, by people who claim the rappeller should be experienced enough to
> control all situations alone. I don't care how experienced you are.
> Ever hear of a heart attack? or a severe cramp? or a rock fall numbing
> your arm? or any number of unforseen circumstances that may render the
> most experienced vertical caver temporarily unable to control the
> rappell.
Ditto Walt! your absolutely right. And WHY has there been not one mention
in any of these discussions on_BACKING UP_ your descender with a Prussick ?
or any one of the many devices on the market to arrest motion?. Seems like
this was a major point in "ropework 101".You sure as heck wouldn't jump
from a plane with only one chute, why rap with only one device and no
safety? it only makes sense to be as redundant as is necessary to reduce
the risk of accidents.
maybe there's a new twist on why you shouldn't use a safety. I'd be happy
to here any thoughts on this subject.
peace
Caver Dave
"...sometimes the lights are shinin' on me...other times I can barely
see.." grateful dead
Wookey
wrote:
> "abandoned by most of the caving community"? What "caving community"
> is that?
Maybe 'most of the world outside the US'? I don't think I've ever seen anyone
use a bottom belay for rapelling anywhere in europe (except on a training
wall). We sometimes use them for ascending to keep the rope running nicely (a
politeness thing rather than for safety), but that's all.
The real answer to this of course if to put some rebelays in - then you
can't hit to floor from so far up :-). More seriously, rebelays make bottom
belays academic for some portion of the pitch which may be one reason for
their rare use in Europe. Of course stops are also a factor, although they are
not popular in all european countries (germans in particular seem to favour
bobbins).
Wookey
--
Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel (00 44) 1223 811679
work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/
Stu
>>have to pull the slack out of the _entire_ rope for it to be effective.
>> This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for rope stretch. Many
>>static ropes have a rope stretch of 2%. You have to get rid of that
>>stretch for the bottom belay to be effective. So for a 100 foot drop,
>>you have to pull in 2 feet of rope - easy. For a 1000 foot drop, you
>>have to pull in 20 feet of rope stretch. Whoops! Who can do that fast
>>enough to save a friend in free fall?
A quick statement. If an abseiler loses control with 1000' of rope
under them then they deserve all that comes. This is not an accident
but total stupidity.
1000' = about 300 metres me thinks. How does one go close to losing
it, further down yes, but not at 1000'.
Also the more rope you pull in the slower the person goes, so time
does stretch.
Bottom belay/brake yea yea!
wlt
Walt Pirie wrote:
> On 30 Sep 1998 04:44:53 GMT, chea...@ix.netcom.com(Cindy Kay Heazlit)
> wrote:
>
> >In <19980929234632...@ng-cr1.aol.com> glaw...@aol.com
> >(Glawackus) writes:
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: Hoyt McKagen <hap...@iname.com>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Jim wrote:
> >>>> Ollie, if you took the time to research your facts, you
> >>>> would realize that bottom belay's don't work in pits over
> >>>> 150ft.
> >>>
> >
> >>An 1,150' pit is only 150' deep once you're down the first
> >>1000', no? Hoyt is right that a bottom belay may be effective,
> >>so long as the rapeller is not already out of control and going
> >>too fast to deal with slack resulting from rope stretch.
> >>
> >
> >The above statement is incorrect.
> >
> >A bottom belay works by taking out all the stretch in a rope and
> >pulling it so tight that the pressure against the descender increases.
> >This increases friction, which in turn stops the rappel.
> >
> >The problem with a bottom belay on a long drop (any drop) is that you
> >have to pull the slack out of the _entire_ rope for it to be effective.
> > This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for rope stretch. Many
> >static ropes have a rope stretch of 2%. You have to get rid of that
> >stretch for the bottom belay to be effective. So for a 100 foot drop,
> >you have to pull in 2 feet of rope - easy. For a 1000 foot drop, you
> >have to pull in 20 feet of rope stretch. Whoops! Who can do that fast
> >enough to save a friend in free fall?
> >
> There's a hell of a lot of arrogance arises whenever this topic comes
> up, by people who claim the rappeller should be experienced enough to
> control all situations alone. I don't care how experienced you are.
> Ever hear of a heart attack? or a severe cramp? or a rock fall numbing
> your arm? or any number of unforseen circumstances that may render the
> most experienced vertical caver temporarily unable to control the
> rappell.
>
> Walt
Gideon Chilton
<bl...@mafeking.scouts.org.au> writes
>A quick statement. If an abseiler loses control with 1000' of rope
>under them then they deserve all that comes. This is not an accident
>but total stupidity.
>1000' = about 300 metres me thinks. How does one go close to losing
>it, further down yes, but not at 1000'.
>
>Also the more rope you pull in the slower the person goes, so time
>does stretch.
>
>Bottom belay/brake yea yea!
>
have any knowledge of the experience of the writer, but the sentiments
do bring to mind a one of my favourite sayings "confidence is what you
feel just before you know better."
If more cavers took the attitude that something could go wrong and took
the time to think what that something could be there would be a hell of
a lot less of us being hauled out in body bags.
>
>
--
Gideon Chilton
Cindy Kay Heazlit
are BETTER ways to safety a rappel than a bottom belay.
Bottom belays put the belayer in the danger zone. It can not be
avoided. The probability of the belayer being hit on the head by a
flying rock is higher than the rappeler losing control. Cost outweighs
benefits.
If you're so paranoid about losing control, consider the following:
1) a Petzl stop
2) A prusik safety (finely tuned, and BELOW the device)
3) a spelean shunt (finely tuned, and rigged correctly)
4) Do a "U" line, where the belay actually goes back up slope, and the
rope never really touches the bottom of the pit.
5) Stay home. The simple fact is, NONE of the methods work 100%.
And yes, bottom belays are being abandoned as standard practice - sorry
Walt! Many of us only use them for training anymore, on a clean slope
that doesn't have any detrius at the top.
I'm surprized by some of the comments in this group. It is obvious
that many opinions come from theory, as opposed to having really done
long drops.
CKH
Jo Schaper
In article <70eg2v$p...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, chea...@ix.netcom.com(Cindy
Kay Heazlit) writes:
>
>And yes, bottom belays are being abandoned as standard practice - sorry
>Walt! Many of us only use them for training anymore, on a clean slope
>that doesn't have any detrius at the top.
>
>
On a related note, how about bottom belaying a free climber? on a safety? That
seems to work.
Not vertical,
Jo Schaper
Hoyt McKagen
> Bottom belays put the belayer in the danger zone. It can not be
> avoided. The probability of the belayer being hit on the head by a
> flying rock is higher than the rappeler losing control. Cost outweighs
> benefits.
BS, pure, simple and stinky. I was really surprised to see Walt agreeing
with me; that could in fact be a first ... but he will also agree most
likely that if you DO give bottom belays you CAN stand far enough out of
the way to avoid being slagged by debris. Cindy, not to tax your critical
facilities, how many caves have you ever seen a pit in, which also had
ledges to stand under or passages to retreat slightly into? Let me
answer for oyu so you won't strain something: that would be almost all of
them. Fact is, the belay is more effective also if held considerable to
one side, because the hypoteneuse formed by the rope is shorter than the
other two sides, hence as the rapper descends, the rope automagically
tightens. When I do this, most times I even have to feed some back.
> 1) a Petzl stop
Thus the 'squeeze ro go' problem?
> 2) A prusik safety (finely tuned, and BELOW the device)
Heck I use one and still like a belay. Can you spell 'redundancy'?
> 3) a spelean shunt (finely tuned, and rigged correctly)
That is an impossibility IMHO, and I have tried it.
> 4) Do a "U" line, where the belay actually goes back up slope, and the
> rope never really touches the bottom of the pit.
Twice the rope, yes. How about things like Fantastic Pit or Golindrinas?
> And yes, bottom belays are being abandoned as standard practice - sorry
> Walt! Many of us only use them for training anymore, on a clean slope
> that doesn't have any detrius at the top.
More fools potentially in bags, yes?
>
> I'm surprized by some of the comments in this group. It is obvious
> that many opinions come from theory, as opposed to having really done
> long drops.
As someone pointed out, the last few feet are all the same and so are the
first few, so it doesn't matter how long the drop is. This does call your
reasoning ability farther into question, though.
Best regards,
Hoyt
--
_,( \ / ),_
_||\\. |\ /| .//||_
_.| |||\\|.. |o.o| ..|//||| |._
_| || ||||\'''''' =(_)=''''''/|||| || |_
_| ||| ||||||||||||| ^ ||||||||||||| ||| |_
_| |||| ||||||||||||| ||||||||||||| |||| |_
_|/'\./ '\.|/ ''\||'' ''||/'' \|./' \./'\|_
V V V \!|\ /|!/ V V V
' ' ' }} \ / {{ ' ' '
V
`Resistance is futile, babay' <= the Borg
Bert Ashbrook
I admit, I wouldn't count on one stopping you if you went out of control.
Instinct is to grab the rope or the shunt, not to lean away from it.
BUT, my shunt has served me well in several applications:
Traverses
Self belay while attaching the friction device
Stopping and starting again mid-drop to clean debris, or to get a survey
shots, photography, etc.
Who else has used a spelean shunt?
Bert Ashbrook
Cindy Kay Heazlit
Dave Hollick wrote:
>
>While waiting for Clinton to resign, chea...@ix.netcom.com(Cindy Kay
>Heazlit) found amusement by writing this:
>
>>
>>I'm surprized by some of the comments in this group. It is obvious
>>that many opinions come from theory, as opposed to having really done
>>long drops.
>>
>
>
>Cindy, would the 876' drop I did the day before yesterday (repeatedly)
>at New River Gorge, WV, qualify me to have an opinion?
Some. Although the physics of a relatively free drop off a bridge are
different than a true big drop, where many times the main line is
running over the edge and along the pit at some point.
>
>Bruce Smith, author of the "vertical bible" On Rope, was safety
>coordinator of the event. A bottom belay was *required* for all
>rappels. Perhaps you should call him up and tell him that he is
>wrong. I'm sure he'd like to hear that he is requiring a safety
>measure that the all-knowing vertical goddess has declared "dead".
Well, only some folks call Bruce's book "the vertical bible". I don't,
though I like his book, and will recommend it. And yes, I've told
Bruce he was wrong or old fashioned on more than one occasion. Why
don't you call him and verify it? Bruce and I have had some really
great discussions, debating the merits of various systems, as opposed
to name calling. What a concept! I think it is fair to say that Bruce
and I both respect each other, though we disagree sometimes. Bruce is
not the be-all and end-all of vertical knowledge. And he'd be the
first to admit it. I admit, though, he's GOOD, and I'm willing to hear
what he has to say, anytime.
>
>By the way, just for S & G we pulled on the bottom belay while a
>rapeller was on rope about 300 feet up (on the 800'+ drop) and guess
>what? HE STOPPED and could not move.
The key word here is WE. That is plural. Think a single person could
do it, as is the standard in caving?
>The bottom belay worked in
>spite of your declaration that it would not.
I didn't say it wouldn't work. I said it was HARD to work, and hard
and harder to work, the longer the drop was. For a truly long drop, it
becomes hard enough to work as to be impractical.
What a shock! It was
>accomplished by having the belayer attached to the rope with a Petzl
>and running downslope fast until he was airborne. Each rappeller
>stopped himself at about 25 feet to allow the belayer to detach.
Ah, try doing that in a 10 foot wide pit. Reality check.
>
>In the real world of caves, there is usually a way to be out of the
>rockfall zone while doing a bottom belay. Yes, my helmet has been
>"pinged" several times, but I have caught enough falls to make the
>loud noise worthwhile.
I'd say that a lot of your caving experience is limited to the eastern
US. Do you know what the WHOLE "real world of caves" truly is? There
are many many types of cave shapes other than the big free pits of the
eastern US. And you've caught enough falls? Now that scares me. Who
in the world are you caving with that is losing control so often?
Hoyt McKagen
>
> Why does the Spelean Shunt get so much bad publicity?
The ones I tried all locked on when loaded and took both hands to undo.
If there were any instructions for use, they weren't provided, and not
one of three could figure it out.
> > > 3) a spelean shunt (finely tuned, and rigged correctly)
It's not hard to rig 'correctly' but it does seem impossible to
'fine-tune', as there are no adjustments.
jeffh...@my-dejanews.com
Hoyt McKagen <batw...@i-plus.net> wrote:
> Bert Ashbrook wrote:
> >
> > Why does the Spelean Shunt get so much bad publicity?
>
> The ones I tried all locked on when loaded and took both hands to undo.
> If there were any instructions for use, they weren't provided, and not
> one of three could figure it out.
>
> > > > 3) a spelean shunt (finely tuned, and rigged correctly)
>
> It's not hard to rig 'correctly' but it does seem impossible to
> 'fine-tune', as there are no adjustments.
>
> Hoyt
> --
what are you talking about Ollie? a spelean shunt is a "jimmy rigged" gibbs
ascender. "the ones I tried all locked" what? ones? are there more than one
jimmy rigged gibbs? no instructions? why would there be instructions on a
piece of gear that is being used for a purpose that it wasn't
intended?.........are you talking about a petzl shunt? your post would make a
little more sense if you were getting a petzl and spelean shunt confused.
are you?
Jeff harrod
also ,if a bottom belay is so necessary for your group? Who's the unlucky
fellow who goes down first?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Bert Ashbrook
> > Why does the Spelean Shunt get so much bad publicity?
Hoyt McKagen <batw...@i-plus.net> wrote:>
> The ones I tried all locked on when loaded and took both hands to undo.
> If there were any instructions for use, they weren't provided, and not
> one of three could figure it out.
>
> It's not hard to rig 'correctly' but it does seem impossible to
> 'fine-tune', as there are no adjustments.
Instructions? Did you try a manufactured product? Mine is home-made, just
a free-running Gibbs, a (non-locking) carabiner, and some webbing. The
only adjustment I ever made was to try a couple different brands of
carabiners, till I found one that let the thing run (relatively) free. It
still tends to lock up easily, but I can unlock it with one hand (while the
other remainins on the friction device).
If you can't unlock with one hand, I can see where it would be a problem.
Perhaps a bigger or differently-shaped carabiner would give more unlocking
leverage, or a webbing loop through the back of the carabiner would allow
you to step on it to unlock the shunt.
Thunder
>
> If you need a belay while doing a pit, you should NOT be doing the pit in the
> first place.
>
> Bob Biddix
So accidents only happen to incompetent cavers?
--
-Thor-
mailto:bp...@2geton.net
Hoyt McKagen
> intended?.........are you talking about a petzl shunt? your post would make a
> little more sense if you were getting a petzl and spelean shunt confused.
I was and it does. The spelean shunt is the Gibbs with a biner around it,
right? This the one which chops rope if you fall a few feet and it then
locks?
> also ,if a bottom belay is so necessary for your group? Who's the unlucky
> fellow who goes down first?
I am, if I happen to be the best experienced, though I will defer to
anyone who is fond of that and equally careful. I agree someone has to
take a chance, but that doesn't mean everyone does.
Best wishes,
Hoyt McKagen
>
> If you need a belay while doing a pit, you should NOT be doing the pit in the
> first place.
This is perhaps the finest example of 'non sequiter' this year.
Best wishes
BrkdwnBob
first place.
Bob Biddix
Mike Dowden
turn...@atc-enviro.com wrote:
> does having an NSS number in the 20's mean you're an old fart???
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Yes
Mike Dowden
21993
Cindy Kay Heazlit
>
>Does the phrase MEOW ! have any any meaning to y'all??
>
When it comes to egos - Yes. Safety - NO. Never.
Jo Schaper
In article <70me9d$g...@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>, chea...@ix.netcom.com(Cindy
Kay Heazlit) writes:
Okay, I give up. What sort of catty remark is MEOW? *|;-) Haven't encountered
that one before.
Jo Schaper
Stu
>>A quick statement. If an abseiler loses control with 1000' of rope
>>under them then they deserve all that comes. This is not an accident
>>but total stupidity.
>>Also the more rope you pull in the slower the person goes, so time
>>does stretch.
>>This is the kind of statement that I find quite horrifying. I don't
>have any knowledge of the experience of the writer, but the sentiments
>do bring to mind a one of my favourite sayings "confidence is what you
>feel just before you know better."
No ppl argued with the fact that to loose control at 1000' is stupid.
So to be fair, I must ask at what hight do you base your asserations
on?
With a bottom brake I can ( with proper conconrtration ) stop any out
of control situation. YES I have had a few, not as many as others,
however, because of my pre abseil breifing system.
Other points to this thread, Stops are good, but prusik safeties are
yet to be proven. Has anyone heard of rebelays for the bottom brake,
it takes them out of the fall zone. HELLO you can tell by the feel
that someone in out of control, one doesn't need to see.
Scott Linn
: The bottom belay worked in
: spite of your declaration that it would not. What a shock! It was
: accomplished by having the belayer attached to the rope with a Petzl
: and running downslope fast until he was airborne. Each rappeller
: stopped himself at about 25 feet to allow the belayer to detach.
This sounds like a VERY good way to damage the rope. Petzl ascenders have very
agressive teeth, and you are shock-loading the rope while engaged.
: In the real world of caves, there is usually a way to be out of the
: rockfall zone while doing a bottom belay.
Not in a lot of alpine caves. I'll have to side with Cindy on this one.
Scott
Scott Linn
: I was and it does. The spelean shunt is the Gibbs with a biner around it,
: right? This the one which chops rope if you fall a few feet and it then
: locks?
I don't believe that it chops the rope after falling a few feet with just a
caver for a load. As you are SO fond of insisting of others, references
please.
The only testing I'm aware of was done with rescue loads while using a gibbs
on the belay rope. A very highly loaded system shock-loaded with a locked
gibbs.
In addition, the shunt could possibly be used BELOW the rappel device (like a
Petzl shunt or knot).
Scott