battery life
Hoyt Mckagen
>
> I don't understand why, but a friend of mine claims that for "high load"
> applications (like the high-beam on his Petzl Duo) lithium only gives
> marginally (10%?) better lifetime. For "low current" (such as LED arrays
> perhaps?) lithium will give as much as 10 times as much life service as
> alkaline. Dunno for sure. What do you think?
I think you're really interested in the operating life of your
battery-powered dildo. Certainly that would be the only action a loser
like you would get, outside of your relatives. Personally, I wouldn't
screw you with your father's dick though he probably did.
Regards,
Hoyt McKagen
Belfab CNC - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
I am among the sources of the Nile
kareful kaver
> AmMurphree wrote:
> >
> > I don't understand why, but a friend of mine claims that for "high load"
> > applications (like the high-beam on his Petzl Duo) lithium only gives
> > marginally (10%?) better lifetime. For "low current" (such as LED arrays
> > perhaps?) lithium will give as much as 10 times as much life service as
> > alkaline. Dunno for sure. What do you think?
>
> I think you're really interested in the operating life of your
> battery-powered dildo. Certainly that would be the only action a loser
> like you would get, outside of your relatives. Personally, I wouldn't
> screw you with your father's dick though he probably did.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Hoyt McKagen
>
Hello everyone,I have been lurking for sometime(over a year)and had to
sign up
today after reading this post.I have been visiting site to read about
caving worldwide also to US caving,and usefull info.During this time I
could not help
but notice the constant crap that flows from Hoyt!I feel that from
what I have read that I have joined the majority.I waited for a while
before forming an opinion and Hoyt's last post kinda put me over the
edge!Let me say now Hoyt that your comments here are completly
uncalled for.As a US caver I am embarassed
by you and your comments.Also as a professional in the motorcycle
industry
I am also embarassed that you claim to be a "mechanic"as well.Although
we live
in a free country and 1st ammendment rights protects you freedom of
speech ,
but life experiences tell you sometimes it is best to say
nothing,which is what
you should have done here.Maybe you dont have a life experiences,in
which case
it is obvious to me and maybe others,you should use your manners!OOPS,
forgot
there is a possibility you may not been taught any,which if we ever
meet I personally be glad to teach you some.I havent found one
redeemable quality
in your posts to date!I urge others to Help Hoyt with his manners
also, he is not unlike "The Taliban" and we need to stand up and not
take his sort of "Terrorism",written,verbal abuse he emits. Hoyt is
living proof why "Abortion"
should always be legal and to know that all that was needed was one
condom
at the proper moment I would not be typing these words,but atlast
because of his
parents poor judgement and laziness we suffer today with Hoyt.Although
a good oldfashioned ass-woopin probably wouldnt permently change
Hoyt,except disfigurement,I know it would make me feel better and make
the world a better place to cave!
>
> Kareful Kaver
>
AmMurphree
Go kill yourself.
-A.M.
InflatableDog
-Woof!
InflatableDog
Um.... Touche!
-Woof!
Hoyt Mckagen
>
> You are such a fucked-up slimeball.
> Go kill yourself.
Here's a second opinion on that, just in today:
>Hi Hoyt-
> A few years ago you posted a list of coordinates for NV caves on alt.cave.
>Though I have only been to a few I would like to thank you for your effort.
>I have had some very enjoyable outings because of you. Thanks amigo!
>Do you have some info for CA?
It's below, enjoy!
CA, Balcony Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Schonchin Butte, Sh
#41121-F5,
Coords: 414442N 1213244W
CA, Berthas Cupboard Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Schonchin Butte,
Sh
#41121-F5, Coords: 414122N 1213146W
CA, Boulevard Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Schonchin Butte, Sh
#41121-F5,
Coords: 414449N 1213243W
CA, Boyden Cave, Fresno Cnty (06019), Map: Wren Peak, Sh #36118-G7,
Coords:
364854N 1184902W
CA, Cave Campground, locale, Shasta Cnty (06089), Map: Old Station, Sh
#40121-
F4, Coords: 404106N 1212513W
CA, Cave Gulch, valley, Amador Cnty (06005), Map: Jackson, Sh #38120-C7,
Coords: 381655N 1204914W, SCoords: 381719N 1204935W
CA, Cave Gulch, valley, Santa Cruz Cnty (06087), Map: Santa Cruz, Felton,
Sh
#36122-H1 37122-A1, Coords: 365907N 1220413W, SCoords: 370045N 1220417W
CA, Cave Mountain, summit, Lassen Cnty (06035), Map: Spalding Tract, Sh
#40120-
F7, Coords: 404204N 1205134W, Ele: 6578
CA, Cave Point, summit, Contra Costa Cnty (06013), Map: Diablo, Sh
#37121-G8,
Coords: 375028N 1215251W
CA, Cave School, school, Solano Cnty (06095), Map: Benicia, Sh #38122-A2,
Coords: 380627N 1221317W
CA, Craig Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Caldwell Butte, Sh #41121-F4,
Coords: 414311N 1212719W
CA, Damons Cave, Modoc Cnty (06049), Map: Spaulding Butte, Sh #41121-E2,
Coords: 413108N 1211042W
CA, Fern Cave, Modoc Cnty (06049), Map: The Panhandle, Sh #41121-G4,
Coords:
414842N 1212716W
CA, Fossil Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: The Panhandle, Sh #41121-G4,
Coords: 414802N 1212839W
CA, Frozen River Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Caldwell Butte, Sh
#41121-
F4, Coords: 414432N 1212946W
CA, Hall City Cave, Trinity Cnty (06105), Map: Wildwood, Sh #40123-D1,
Coords:
402424N 1230026W, AKA: Hall City Caves (US-M120), Stat: BGN 1983, DList:
8301,
Ref: US-T121
CA, Heppe Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Schonchin Butte, Sh
#41121-F5,
Coords: 414153N 1213241W
CA, Ice Cave Ridge, ridge, Lassen Cnty (06035), Map: Spalding Tract, Sh
#40120-
F7, Coords: 404057N 1204958W
CA, Mammoth Cave, Modoc Cnty (06049), Map: Perez, Sh #41121-F3, Coords:
414022N
1212003W
CA, Tickner Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Schonchin Butte, Sh
#41121-F5,
Coords: 414115N 1213152W
CA, Upper Ice Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Schonchin Butte, Sh
#41121-F5,
Coords: 414153N 1213421W, AKA: Highland Reservoir
CA, Valentine Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Caldwell Butte, Sh
#41121-F4,
Coords: 414235N 1212837W
CA, Bat Cave, San Bernardino Cnty (06071), Map: Topock (AZ), Sh
#34114-F4,
Coords: 344243N 1142940W
CA, Bat Cave Wash, stream, San Bernardino Cnty (06071), Map: Topock (AZ),
Whale
Mountain, Sh #34114-F4 34114-F5, Coords: 344329N 1142931W, SCoords:
343928N
1143255W
CA, Bee Cave Canyon, valley, Monterey Cnty (06053), Map: Williams Hill,
Sh
#35121-H1, Coords: 355734N 1210142W, SCoords: 355711N 1210050W
CA, Cave Mountain, summit, San Bernardino Cnty (06071), Map: Cave
Mountain, Sh
#35116-A3, Coords: 350416N 1161924W, Ele: 3585
CA, Cave Spring, spring, San Bernardino Cnty (06071), Map: Avawatz Pass,
Sh
#35116-E4, Coords: 353224N 1162551W
CA, Deep Creek Cave, Tulare Cnty (06107), Map: Tobias Peak, Sh #35118-G5,
Coords: 354840N 1183342W
CA, Painted Cave, Santa Barbara Cnty (06083), Map: Santa Cruz Island A,
Sh
#33119-H7, Coords: 340413N 1195128W
CA, Smugglers Cave, Imperial Cnty (06025), Map: In-Ko-Pah Gorge, Sh
#32116-F1,
Coords: 323806N 1160529W
CA, Winding Stair Cave, San Bernardino Cnty (06071), Map: Fountain Peak,
Sh
#34115-H5, Coords: 345756N 1153109W
CA, Merrill Ice Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Schonchin Butte, Sh
#41121-
F5, Coords: 414345N 1213250W, AKA: Bearpaw Cave (US-M104/Shasta NF/1932),
Bearpaw Ice Cave (US-M109/Lava Beds NM/1934), Desc: Cave with permanent
ice,
1.5 mi SW of Schonchin Butte; Lava Beds National Monument, Desc: Named
for
Charles Henry Merrill, who homesteaded the land on which the cave is
located,
Stat: BGN 1949, EDate: 9008, Ref: US-T121
CA, Indian Cave, Mariposa Cnty (06043), Map: Half Dome, Sh #37119-F5,
Coords:
374440N 1193330W, Desc: About .5 mi S of Mirror Lake, in Yosemite NP,
Stat: BGN
1932, EDate: 9008, Ref: US-T121
CA, Cave City, ppl, Calaveras Cnty (06009), Map: Calaveritas, Sh
#38120-B5,
Coords: 381209N 1203027W, Ele: 1614
CA, Captain Jacks Ice Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Caldwell Butte,
Sh
#41121-F4, Coords: 374602N 1192500W, Stat: BGN 1970
CA, Big Cave, Shasta Cnty (06089), Map: Coble Mountain, Sh #40121-H3,
Coords:
405700N 1212208W, Lassen NF
CA, Bower Cave, Mariposa Cnty (06043), Map: Buckhorn Peak, Sh #37120-F1,
Coords: 374452N 1200209W, Stanislaus NF
CA, Cave Country, area, Tuolumne Cnty (06109), Map: Columbia, Sh
#38120-A4,
Coords: 380431N 1202352W, Stanislaus NF
CA, Cave Creek, stream, Tulare Cnty (06107), Map: Giant Forest, Sh
#36118-E7,
Coords: 363505N 1184956W, SCoords: 363630N 1185104W, Sequoia NF, Stat:
BGN 1928
CA, Cave Creek, stream, Trinity Cnty (06105), Map: Naufus Creek, Sh
#40123-D3,
Coords: 402251N 1232005W, SCoords: 402504N 1232007W, Trinity NF
CA, Cave Creek, stream, Mendocino Cnty (06045), Map: Foster Mountain,
Redwood
Valley, Sh #39123-D2 39123-C2, Coords: 392520N 1231412W, SCoords: 392211N
1231244W, Mendocino NF
CA, Cave Creek, stream, Butte Cnty (06007), Map: Richardson Springs,
Campbell
Mound, Sh #39121-G7 39121-H7, Coords: 395023N 1214638W, SCoords: 395259N
1214511W, Lassen NF, AKA: Mud Creek
CA, Cave Lake, lake, Modoc Cnty (06049), Map: Mount Bidwell, Sh
#41120-H2,
Coords: 415849N 1201229W, Modoc NF, Fremont NF
CA, Cave Spring, spring, Tehama Cnty (06103), Map: Panther Spring, Sh
#40121-
B7, Coords: 400802N 1214643W, Lassen NF
CA, Crystal Cave, Tulare Cnty (06107), Map: Giant Forest, Sh #36118-E7,
Coords:
363522N 1184934W, Sequoia NF, Stat: BGN 1928
CA, Del Loma Cave, Trinity Cnty (06105), Map: Del Loma, Sh #40123-G3,
Coords:
404638N 1231939W, Ele: 1175, Trinity NF
CA, Ice Cave Mountain, summit, Tehama Cnty (06103), Map: Childs Meadows,
Sh
#40121-C4, Coords: 402019N 1212337W, Lassen NF
CA, Kingsley Cave, Tehama Cnty (06103), Map: Panther Spring, Sh
#40121-B7,
Coords: 401008N 1215006W, Lassen NF
CA, Little Cave Creek, stream, Mendocino Cnty (06045), Map: Foster
Mountain,
Willits, Sh #39123-D2 39123-D3, Coords: 392335N 1231353W, SCoords:
392314N
1231551W, Mendocino NF
CA, Mayfield Ice Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Indian Spring
Mountain, Sh
#41121-C5, Coords: 411929N 1213236W, Shasta NF, Lassen NF
CA, Mercer Cave, Calaveras Cnty (06009), Map: Murphys, Sh #38120-B4,
Coords:
380905N 1202838W, Stanislaus NF
CA, Pluto Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Juniper Flat, Sh #41122-E3,
Coords:
413402N 1221657W, Klamath NF, Shasta NF, AKA: The Caves
CA, Popcorn Cave, Shasta Cnty (06089), Map: Coble Mountain, Sh #40121-H3,
Coords: 405710N 1212222W, Lassen NF
CA, Pythian Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Gazelle, Sh #41122-E5,
Coords:
413531N 1223503W, Klamath NF
CA, Subway Cave, Shasta Cnty (06089), Map: Old Station, Sh #40121-F4,
Coords:
404111N 1212457W, Lassen NF
CA, Yellowjacket Ice Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Medicine Lake, Sh
#41121-
E5, Coords: 413046N 1213243W, Klamath NF, Modoc NF
CA, Cave Rocks, summit, Riverside Cnty (06065), Map: Anza, Sh #33116-E6,
Coords: 333325N 1164202W, San Bernardino NF
CA, Cave Spring, spring, Riverside Cnty (06065), Map: Lake Fulmor, Sh
#33116-
G7, Coords: 334622N 1164920W, San Bernardino NF, AKA: Sycamore Spring
CA, Clough Cave, Tulare Cnty (06107), Map: Dennison Peak, Sh #36118-C7,
Coords:
362101N 1184541W, Sequoia NF, Stat: BGN 1928
CA, Erskine Creek Cave, Kern Cnty (06029), Map: Lake Isabella South, Sh
#35118-
E4, Coords: 353539N 1182709W, Sequoia NF
CA, Greenhorn Cave, Kern Cnty (06029), Map: Miracle Hot Springs, Sh
#35118-E5,
Coords: 353415N 1183524W, Sequoia NF
CA, Packsaddle Cave, Tulare Cnty (06107), Map: Fairview, Sh #35118-H4,
Coords:
355618N 1182745W, Sequoia NF
CA, Palmer Cave, Tulare Cnty (06107), Map: Case Mountain, Sh #36118-D7,
Coords:
362234N 1184537W, Sequoia NF, Stat: BGN 1928
CA, Paradise Cave, Tulare Cnty (06107), Map: Case Mountain, Sh #36118-D7,
Coords: 362843N 1184540W, Sequoia NF, Stat: BGN 1928
CA, Cave Lake Campground, locale, Modoc Cnty (06049), Map: Mount Bidwell,
Sh
#41120-H2, Coords: 415842N 1201217W, Ele: 6750, Modoc NF, AKA: Cave Lake
Recreation Site (US-M104/Modoc NF/1986), EDate: 9209, Ref: US-M125/1984
CA, Jot Dean Ice Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Porcupine Butte, Sh
#41121-
D5, Coords: 412927N 1213659W, Ele: 5420, Shasta NF, AKA: Jot Dean Caves
(US-
M104/Modoc NF/1986), EDate: 9210, Ref: US-M101/1990
CA, Samwell Cave, basin, Shasta Cnty (06089), Map: Bollibokka Mountain,
Sh
#40122-H2, Coords: 405513N 1221416W, Ele: 1280, Shasta NF, EDate: 9210,
Ref: US-
M104/Shasta NF/1987
Hoyt Mckagen
>
> Man, THAT looks uncalled for!
I just don't take too well to the asshole contingent. Many many cavers as
Mike Taylor said exemplify the bad side of people. You probably missed
the routine mass flamings I had to endure when I first started posting
online. AM-bitch-san is evidently just one of the newbies at it. But the
stink is the same. If you don't like the stink, try correcting the
stinkers. I don't take BS from AM or anyone w/o replying in kind.
InflatableDog
appreciative message and strikes back at caves, property owners and cavers by
posting cave location?
Is this guy a 12yr old punk or what??
-Woof! Off TOPIC! Woof! Woof! Woof!
>Subject: Re: battery life
>From: Hoyt Mckagen Nobat...@i-plSPAMus.net
>Date: 12/16/01 10:24 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C1CCA...@i-plSPAMus.net>
InflatableDog
>From: Hoyt Mckagen Nobat...@i-plSPAMus.net
>Message-id: <3C1CCB...@i-plSPAMus.net>
>
Who is Mike Taylor anyway? An anti-caver?
-Woof!
Anonymous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On 12/15/2001, 10:51:44 PM, inflat...@aol.com (InflatableDog) wrote
regarding Re: battery life:
> Man, THAT looks uncalled for! What's this Hoyt guy's problem?
That's a really, really, long list you've asked for. Hoyt's
problems are many and varied, but it's primary facet is
extreme narcissism.
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
Hoyt Mckagen
> So what's this? Someone levels a jab at Hoyt, so he fabricates some self
> appreciative message
You were never more wrong.
and strikes back at caves, property owners and cavers by
> posting cave location?
It's perfectly legal. Shortly I'm going to post on a site the Geocities
sources and the GNIS, and I'll dedicate that to you.
> >It's below, enjoy!
> >
> >CA, Balcony Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Schonchin Butte, Sh
> >#41121-F5,
> >Coords: 414442N 1213244W
> >
> >CA, Berthas Cupboard Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Schonchin Butte,
> >Sh
> >#41121-F5, Coords: 414122N 1213146W
> >
> >CA, Boulevard Cave, Siskiyou Cnty (06093), Map: Schonchin Butte, Sh
> >#41121-F5,
> >Coords: 414449N 1213243W
--
Dr.Chomplin
> InflatableDog wrote:
> >
> > Man, THAT looks uncalled for!
>
> I just don't take too well to the asshole contingent. Many many cavers as
> Mike Taylor said exemplify the bad side of people. You probably missed
> the routine mass flamings I had to endure when I first started posting
> online. AM-bitch-san is evidently just one of the newbies at it. But the
> stink is the same. If you don't like the stink, try correcting the
> stinkers. I don't take BS from AM or anyone w/o replying in kind.
IDog
Look back through the archives to find that the flames are almost
exclusively directed at McKagen.
He has a thing about blowing his own trumpet in a "fuck you" style and then
revelling in kindergarten name calling and whining about how nobody likes
him even though he's convinced he's right.
Most of us get used to it. He's an unhappy kid who always has to have the
last word.
Over to you Hoyt m'lad.
John
AmMurphree
(Add EdMcMahan Laugh Here)
AmMurphree
>
>regarding Re: battery life:
>
That may well be true, anonymous!
But be carefull what you say, I sense an outburst of cave-location postings
coming up....
-A.M.
InflatableDog
Mckagen -
(maybe that's 'Daddy' and he's the one that pays the phone bill...)
But if you happen to want to go trespass or harrass HIS domicile you might
want to try:
3676 Old Creek Rd
BLACKSBURG VA 24060
540-552-0722
P.S. If he wants to continue posting cave locations, perhaps I could publish
his court records. Its perfectly legal! :)
-Woof! Woof!
>Subject: coords
>From: Hoyt Mckagen Nobat...@i-plSPAMus.net
>Date: 12/17/01 10:44 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C1E20...@i-plSPAMus.net>
Hoyt Mckagen
stuf flike this. So I sent it to them.
--
Philip Balister
AOL has a zero tolerance policy regarding someone posting information they
obtain from your
web page that you plaster all over the internet? Please explain.
Philip
"Hoyt Mckagen" <Nobat...@i-plSPAMus.net> wrote in message
news:3C1F73...@i-plSPAMus.net...
AmMurphree
his place.
Way to go, Mr. Dog!
-A.M.
P.S. Court Records, just like CAVE LOCATIONS - ARE public domain.
>
>I guess you didn't know AOL has a zero tolerance policy on
>stuf flike this. So I sent it to them.
>
>
>InflatableDog wrote:
>>
>> Okay, I might work up the coords later for where to find "Hoyt", Or Oliver
>>
Nigel Robertson
"InflatableDog" <inflat...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011218024955...@mb-mm.aol.com...
> Okay, I might work up the coords later for where to find "Hoyt", Or Oliver
> Mckagen -
> (maybe that's 'Daddy' and he's the one that pays the phone bill...)
>
I must admit that from where I'm sitting, it's you that appears to be the
little child. Perhaps you should sit down and read past threads on Dejanews
to get an idea of who Hoyt is and where he's coming from.
> But if you happen to want to go trespass or harrass HIS domicile you
might
> want to try:
Don't recall Hoyt suggesting that anyone should trespass or harass
landowners in his post containing (shhh) cave locations.
>
> P.S. If he wants to continue posting cave locations, perhaps I could
publish
> his court records. Its perfectly legal! :)
And ... ?
Nigel
InflatableDog
- that I have allowed myself to gravitate toward Hoyt's level.
However, I'm not out to "pick on poor little Hoyt". Its not my intention that
anyone actually do harm to him or retaliate for the abuse he dishes out on this
newsgroup.
I know from other cavers who have participated in this newsgroup in the past,
that McKagen's viewpoints are not to be reasoned with and that if crossed, will
resort to the thing that most cavers hate the most: posting cave locations.
Perhaps in the UK, cave locations are a different issue than here in the
states. There are several thousands ungated, pristine caves on both government
and privately owned lands.
Many of these caves are physically and environmentally vulnerable to visitation
of untrained or insensitive "spelunkers". Not only are speleothems at risk,
but endangered bat species whose rousing during hibrenation could result in the
death of an entire colony.
As well, many of these caves are a very real potential hazard to an untrained
visitor. Because of screwy liability laws in this country - a landowner could
stand to loose all of his property if some stupid reads one of these cave
coordinates, finds it with his daddy's GPS and gets himself killed.
As a caver, (and nearly all other cavers I know) I am dedicated to the
protection of caves, what lives in them and caver/landowner relations. If my
regard for these things exceeds my regard for some narcissist who consistantly
shows contempt for all of the above, who can blame me?
-WOOF!
>
> P.S. If he wants to continue posting cave locations, perhaps I could
publish
> his court records. Its perfectly legal! :)
And ... ?
Nigel
This was a retort to Hoyt's claim that publishing cave coordinates is
"perfectly legal". (perhaps you missed that posting??)
Subject: Re: coords
From: "Nigel Robertson"
ni...@dont-spam-me-im-vegetarian.easegill.worldonline.co.uk
Date: 12/18/01 2:27 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <9vo92j$f1r0p$1...@ID-30451.news.dfncis.de>
AmMurphree
rapport with a landowner, then 'caver-wannabe', armed with the coordinates
decides to investigate. The landowner catches 'wannabe' tresspassing - only
knows the visitor showed up unannounced and uninvited - then decides to make it
off-limits to EVERYONE.
Also, I hate the idea of some 'adventure-seeker' getting themself killed
because they thought they knew what they were doing and didnt. (I actually
know of a case where three 'experienced climbers' were rescued by a caver
because they descended into a 80' vertical cave thinking, (having ascenders),
that they COULD ascend the rope - but couldn't - not even knowing how to put
together a "frog" system.)
-Ann
Subject: Re: coords
From: inflat...@aol.com (InflatableDog)
Date: 12/18/01 9:36 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <20011218223606...@mb-ck.aol.com>
InflatableDog
Nigel Robertson wrote: (That *I* wrote)
> But if you happen to want to go trespass or harrass HIS domicile you
might
> want to try:
Don't recall Hoyt suggesting that anyone should trespass or harass
landowners in his post containing (shhh) cave locations.
Posting Cave Coordinates/Locations opens the door to trespassing and if
tresspassing isn't harassment, what is?
-bow wow
Tony Brocklebank
> I know from other cavers who have participated in this newsgroup in the
past,
> that McKagen's viewpoints are not to be reasoned with
It can be fun to try though :-)
>and that if crossed, will
> resort to the thing that most cavers hate the most: posting cave
locations.
Scary thought. As often as I disagree with Hoyt the idea that he can cause
such concern by posting (to cavers - you'd have to be pretty weird to follow
this ng for any other reason) something as sensitive as the location of a
cave never fails to make me giggle. Grow up - cavers who don't know where
caves are are of little use to anyone.
> Perhaps in the UK, cave locations are a different issue than here in the
> states. There are several thousands ungated, pristine caves on both
government
> and privately owned lands.
There are thousands here too, although pristine is not how you would
describe them. Are you saying no one has visited them? What sort of cavers
are you - armchair ones?
> Many of these caves are physically and environmentally vulnerable to
visitation
> of untrained or insensitive "spelunkers".
All caves, without exception, are damaged by every caver - trained or
otherwise. When you grow wings you'll become the exception to this rule.
Being a caver implies acceptance of some destruction - whether you like it
or not. What gives me the right to wander through a cave and damage it
whilst others don't have the same right? Nothing, to my mind.
>Not only are speleothems at risk,
> but endangered bat species whose rousing during hibrenation could result
in the
> death of an entire colony.
> As well, many of these caves are a very real potential hazard to an
untrained
> visitor. Because of screwy liability laws in this country - a landowner
could
> stand to loose all of his property if some stupid reads one of these cave
> coordinates, finds it with his daddy's GPS and gets himself killed.
I know most of you would sue the midwife that slapped them at birth, but has
this ever happened (the suing I mean - people have always died in caves,
that's why they think they're dangerous)?
> As a caver, (and nearly all other cavers I know) I am dedicated to the
> protection of caves, what lives in them and caver/landowner relations. If
my
> regard for these things exceeds my regard for some narcissist who
consistantly
> shows contempt for all of the above, who can blame me?
>
I suggest you buy that armchair.
You feel you need to be a little careful how many suicidal inexperienced
"spelunking" part time climbers who fancy a bit of caving get such sensitive
info. Easy answer - fill in all the entrances. But that would stop you
visiting such places in an approved (by you), sensitive (by your standards),
bat hugging (bats prefer privacy), non litigious (until you get hurt)
manner - so instead you refuse to tell anyone where they are. Hoyt, for all
his faults, sees the stupidity of this. Landowner/caver relations in UK
terms usually means relations between cavers in general and the landowner, I
think in your case you see this as a relationship between a small group of
cavers and a landowner. A caver is anyone who enjoys visiting "wild"
caves - a spelunker is a caver (no one on alt.caving has ever come close to
arguing differently and the distinction doesn't exist anywhere else).
Some US cavers seem to live by a set of rules that exempt themselves -
thanks for reminding me.
Tony
Tony Brocklebank
trespass than putting a no entry sign on a field or a name plate on a house.
Do you accuse whoever produces maps of your area showing your street of
being responsible for break ins?
If you want to attract interest in something then try and hide it - humans
love mystery. On which note do you have a name or are we to assume you are
inflatable love toy?
InflatableDog <inflat...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011218231320...@mb-ck.aol.com...
Tony Brocklebank
AmMurphree <ammur...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011218225919...@mb-ck.aol.com...
> Yeah - Take the instance of where cavers might have already established a
good
> rapport with a landowner, then 'caver-wannabe', armed with the coordinates
> decides to investigate. The landowner catches 'wannabe' tresspassing -
only
> knows the visitor showed up unannounced and uninvited - then decides to
make it
> off-limits to EVERYONE.
>
So make sure the 'wannabe' knows where the cave is and what he needs to do
to visit it.
> Also, I hate the idea of some 'adventure-seeker' getting themself killed
> because they thought they knew what they were doing and didnt. (I
actually
> know of a case where three 'experienced climbers' were rescued by a caver
> because they descended into a 80' vertical cave thinking, (having
ascenders),
> that they COULD ascend the rope - but couldn't - not even knowing how to
put
> together a "frog" system.)
>
But what if they'd had more detail, rather than less?
I've helped drag out a couple who dropped far deeper with no ascenders.
They hadn't read the guidebook (which makes clear the only way out is up),
and had only word of mouth to suggest they could get out the bottom. Lack
of information can equal deep s**t as well.
Tony
Dan Twilley, D.C.
locations anywhere that is available to the untrained caving public,
and, for some reason considers the right to do this important...let me
ask a simple question....who has access to the internet?.......OH MY
GAWD....EVER BODY DOES!!!.............second question.....if sum idiot
gits a cave location from a public posting and does somethin to
f+++-up that published cave, or hisself, then who is responsible for
this situation?.......................cavers need to be trained to be
"good" cavers...........just because any fool CAN legally publish cave
locations don't mean its right to do that!!............it is
irresponsible, in my opinion, to subject the public to the risks
involved in caving by making that venue available (via public location
publication) simply because it is "legally" right!.....CaVing is
dangerous...ropework is dangerous...BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE NOT
TRAINED!!!!.......accidents involving people who are properly trained
are more rare than accidents involving the improperly
trained....AND..FLASH
CAVELOCATIONPUBLISHERDEVIL'SADVOCATESIDIOTS....how did those injured
rookies find out about the cave?.......wuz sumofem from printed
materials?........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......just my humble
opinion......
Glawackus
>Because of screwy liability laws in this country - a landowner
>could
>> stand to loose all of his property if some stupid reads one of these cave
>> coordinates, finds it with his daddy's GPS and gets himself killed.
>I know most of you would sue the midwife that slapped them at birth, but has
>this ever happened (the suing I mean - people have always died in caves,
>that's why they think they're dangerous)?
Over and over. Here's what I can relate off the top of my head, plus one I
found on the internet.
Many years ago an NSS grotto erected a fence around a pit. Some idiot managed
to fall in after climbing over the fence. Not only was the property owner sued,
they sued the grotto as well, because the fence apparently wasn't adequate to
protect morons. The NSS was sued also, because it was one of their grottos that
built the obvioulsy inadequate fence.
A couple of years ago, a teenager and some friends, with no caving experience,
naturally, entered Spring Hill Cave in Tennessee, and managed to fall off a
ledge to his death. Plenty of people would figure it was Darwin working his
magic to improve the species, but the family and their attorney figured it was
the fault of the property owner and filed a suit.
A few years before that a 70 year old woman on a cave-for-pay trip dropped
behind the group and tried to downclimb in the wrong spot, falling about 15
feet and breaking her ankles. Besides the guide, who having been paid for a
presumably safe trip deserved some blame, she sued the landowner who didn't
know the trip ever happened until getting the subpoena.
Before the NSS acquired their first cave, they were offered, and turned down,
Knox Cave, in the late 70's. The owner wanted to rid himself of the liability,
having been sued after ice fell from the rim of the sinkhole, killing one
person and seriuosly injuring another. His insurance company, Allstate (who
claim you're in good hands if you're insured by them) claimed his coverage did
not apply to the case because they didn't know about his dangerous cave.
Allstate later paid a sizable settlement when it was proven that they (or their
agent) did in fact know about the cave.
In the US you don't even have to go caving to sue over injuries caused by a
cave. In Florida, large numbers of people move in, develop an area, pump huge
amounts of water out of the ground, and then sue the water company because of
subsidence that is attributed to pumping the water.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/072201/Hernando/Sinkhole_survivors_re.shtml
Steve
The above can be construed as personal opinion in the absence of a reasonable
belief that it was intended as a statement of fact. Or it might just be to
generate discussion.
Andrew Brooks
> accidents involving people who are properly trained are
> more rare than accidents involving the improperly trained....
It's interesting to note that 90% of the accident victims rescued
from mountains are "experienced mountaineers". OK, so I made up
the actual figure but you get my point.
arb
Tony Brocklebank
hobby or profession that works this way, other than the Magic Circle. I
don't remember many "amatuer abseiled off end of rope" incidents, but there
have been plenty involving experienced cavers. Next thing they'll be
suggesting it's wrong to teach someone rope work in case they hurt
themselves.
Andrew Brooks <a...@sat.dundee.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3C2210...@sat.dundee.ac.uk...
Tony Brocklebank
won? That said I know from personal experience that being sued unfairly can
be very distressing and that winning or losing can become irrelevant.
It's not strictly the point but none of these seem to have anything to do
with publishing locations? I think the Gaping Gill case here recently
suggests the landowners are OK, at the other end of the scale if you're
going to charge people to cave then it makes sense not to break them,
although I can't see how she could win - unless you can also sue your ski
instructor when you break a leg over there?
Tony
Glawackus <glaw...@aol.comedy> wrote in message
news:20011220012321...@mb-fc.aol.com...
Jo Schaper
agree with either Yank extreme-- either the secrecy advocates or the publish the
coords on the walls of the loo.
If people want to cave, they will find the means to do so, including
finding where the caves are. On the other hand, there isn't much point to
handing lit matches to people with the responsibility or ethics of me-first
small children who think that their "liberty" includes treading on the rights of
others (like landowners).
I did get a kick out of whomever said caves were considered dangerous
because people die in them. I suspect more people have died in buildings (homes
and hospitals) than have EVER died in caves. Yet, does this mean you don't go to
your friend's home, or to visit people in the hospital because people die in
buildings?
What a hoot.
Hope Fr. Christmas treats you right, Tony.
from an American whose brain is not on cruise control,
regards,
Jo
Tony Brocklebank
dangerous
> because people die in them. I suspect more people have died in buildings
(homes
> and hospitals) than have EVER died in caves. Yet, does this mean you don't
go to
> your friend's home, or to visit people in the hospital because people die
in
> buildings?
May have been me - crossing the road is just a dangerous.
> What a hoot.
> Hope Fr. Christmas treats you right, Tony.
> from an American whose brain is not on cruise control,
> regards,
> Jo
>
He already has - I made sure of it :-) Have a good one!
Hoyt Mckagen
> Perhaps in the UK, cave locations are a different issue than here in the
> states. There are several thousands ungated, pristine caves on both government
> and privately owned lands.
> Many of these caves are physically and environmentally vulnerable to visitation
> of untrained or insensitive "spelunkers".
The simple fact is that there has never been a showing between cave
locations being posted and caves being trashed. The most likely causes of
cave trashing are 1) long known to locals, 2) easy physical access.
I sent out a questionaire to cavers a few years ago to make some sense
out of this. Cavers as a whole talked it down, preferring, I would
suspect, not to know the truth.
> stand to loose all of his property if some stupid reads one of these cave
> coordinates, finds it with his daddy's GPS and gets himself killed.
BS, laws in nearly every state protect landowners from all caving
incidents.
> As a caver, (and nearly all other cavers I know) I am dedicated to the
> protection of caves, what lives in them and caver/landowner relations.
Then you shouldn't go caving at all.
Hoyt Mckagen
> Posting Cave Coordinates/Locations opens the door to trespassing and if
> tresspassing isn't harassment, what is?
You sure have a fine-toothed grasp of cause and effect. To break your
fragile chain, tresspassing isn't defined in law as 'following public
posting of cave locations'. It's defined as entering lands of others w/o
permission. Suppose, just suppose anyone wanting to go to a cave that has
a public location, decided to ASK PERMISSION from LO? So goes to the
winds your objection ....
Hoyt Mckagen
> edge!Let me say now Hoyt that your comments here are completly
> uncalled for.As a US caver I am embarassed
> by you and your comments.
You should also be embarrassed by Ann's opening fire. Not nearly so
patient as you, she didn't give it a chance at all, just started up
spouting. I certainly have a right to show my disdain for someone
like that.
>Also as a professional in the motorcycle
> industry
> I am also embarassed that you claim to be a "mechanic"as well.
I'm way ahead of any 'mechanic', dude. And your opinion isn't nearly so
important as those of my increasing customer and repeat customer load.
Done any caving lately? Why not report on that instead of justt ranting.
I'll post a good example of that shortly, for you to try to follow.
> living proof why "Abortion"
> should always be legal and to know that all that was needed was one
> condom
It wasn't legal when I was born and you can put that condom on your
tongue.
Hoyt Mckagen
> My gawd humans are stupid........let me ask anyone who publishes cave
> locations anywhere that is available to the untrained caving public,
> and, for some reason considers the right to do this important...let me
> ask a simple question....who has access to the internet?.......OH MY
> GAWD....EVER BODY DOES!!!
Big deal. Road maps show superhighways where fools can travel at high
speeds no matter how skilled they are, and last year 40,000 died from it.
Get the point?
> gits a cave location from a public posting and does somethin to
> f+++-up that published cave, or hisself, then who is responsible for
> this situation?
The idiot is. You think I'd be foolish enough to sue Jim Washington and
Dave Colotosti for finding the entrance to Stay-Hi Cave ten years ago, if
I fell and bummped my ass on the cross-over drop?
> "good" cavers...........just because any fool CAN legally publish cave
> locations don't mean its right to do that!!
What the fug do you think 'Legal' means?
> irresponsible, in my opinion, to subject the public to the risks
> involved in caving by making that venue available (via public location
> publication)
Yeah well, it's MHO that it's right and there's nothing you can do about
it.
> dangerous...ropework is dangerous...BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE NOT
> TRAINED!!!!
Crap. Skilled cavers get hurt too, every day. Read NSS Accident Report
sometime.
Dan Twilley, D.C.
caving!.......mountaineering is a bit more difficult for the untrained
to get to far along and into...donchathink?.......wakeup.....
Dan Twilley, D.C.
Tony......pleeze read the reports put out by the NSS each year
concerning caving accidents.....you will clearly see that the majority
involve rank amateurs or people who don't have that much experience
caving.....and Tony, one other thing.....the person you train is not
the one likely to get hurt....no, it is the person he drags to the
cave to impress after he feels you have him "adequately trained"......
kareful kaver
Hoyt,During the time I have followed this group it is obvious to me
and others
you have a problem and personally I find you an embarassment to the
caving
community and some of your statements and actions as of late are some
examples
why you are disliked and shunned.Posting cave locations,other comments
you have made,personal attacks and sexual comments aimmed to hurt and
anger someone
is not winning you any friends.Infact,people are noticing your
behavior.You appearantly find safety in slamming and slandering
someone on here,and I dont see why you do.You have make a deliberate
effort to inflame anyone with different views and any comments you
make to defend yourself looks weak and feeble.
I do call on cavers to do what they can to rise up and set you on the
proper path,givin the chance I know I will.
As far as reporting a caving trip or experiences,I will when I feel I
have something constructive say or a question that I would like
answered.
You are the International caver,Hoyt,although I may have missed it or
them
butI havent seen your caving posts,an actual caving trip to anywhere
with anybody,just references to trips.Also no names of your caving
friends or even
posts from them.Surely they should have posted their experiences with
you underground,and for one,I would like to hear from them.You claim
that you
have friends,US and abroad,where are they,who are they?Infact,if
anyone has been on a Hoyt trip please share your experiences good and
bad,we would like to hear from you!Infact you dont have to be a friend
of Hoyts,please post a experience.
Infact,where and who are your friends? How come we never hear from
them?
My friends stand beside me as well as I would them.If called upon they
would not be silent and without hesitation defend me,Also,a true
friend would let me know
if I was wrong and I am big enough to admit when I am wrong and I do
not hesitate to apologize when I am wrong and try to make things
right.
See,Hoyt,thats where I see things different than you.I look for the
good in people and I start there.You are probably not a really bad
person,but it is
obvious you are not really a good one,either.
As far as being "way ahead of any mechanic,dude",as I see it ,dont be
confused,just because you think you are ahead,you may be way behind!
Kareful Kaver
Tony Brocklebank
> > dangerous...ropework is dangerous...BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE NOT
> > TRAINED!!!!
>
> Crap. Skilled cavers get hurt too, every day. Read NSS Accident Report
> sometime.
>
As Hoyt says there are many trained and experienced cavers who will confirm
that ropework can be dangerous, having found out the hard way. I hate it
when I have to agree with you Hoyt!
Tony
Tony Brocklebank
most of the caving incidents and virtually all the serious ones happen to
experienced cavers, or groups accompanied by experienced cavers.
So far as the knock on accident is concerned - someone with enough
experience to cave with you but not without, if you like - is going to have
access to cave locations anyway, so I can't see how this is relevant.
Jo Schaper
"Dan Twilley, D.C." wrote:
> > > Dan Twilley, D.C. wrote:
> > > > accidents involving people who are properly trained are
> > > > more rare than accidents involving the improperly trained....
> > >
>
> Tony......pleeze read the reports put out by the NSS each year
> concerning caving accidents.....you will clearly see that the majority
> involve rank amateurs or people who don't have that much experience
> caving.....and Tony, one other thing.....the person you train is not
> the one likely to get hurt....no, it is the person he drags to the
> cave to impress after he feels you have him "adequately trained"......
Dan:
1) Tony is from the UK, and NSS standards don't apply to him.
2) Define "adequately trained." Cavers in the US scream bloody murder every time someone suggests a
uniform training regimen for organized cavers, as a group they are positively allergic to any concept of
training certification. And, for the most part, such training would not be a "bozo filter" as literally
any person with a flashlight and a notion can go into some local cave, assuming they also are ignoring
trespass law.
Also, in case you haven't noticed, membership in the NSS is open to everyone, regardless of
qualification. These set caving off from other adventure sports, such as SCUBA or skydiving, both which
have a training system, and a "portal" which you need the training card to get through (filling tanks, or
getting on an airplane). Granted, if a person is technically and financially able, they can bypass these
filters, but the majority of enthusiasts go in by the "wide door."
While the NSS definitely has some good info, and provides a good social base, it is not a "portal" to, or
any assurance of the ability to cave.
best regards,
Jo
Tony Brocklebank
The standards (if they are any good) should probably apply to all cavers,
but fortunately as things stand we are exempt :-)
Dr.Chomplin
Eh? How do you reckon that?
Maybe you're thinking of mountaineering involving serious technical rock climbing. I'm fairly
certain there are plenty of "mountains" which don't require it. It depends to a certain extent
upon your definition of mountain :)
John
Glawackus
>I remember a few of those, but can't recall the outcome. How many of them
>won? That said I know from personal experience that being sued unfairly can
>be very distressing and that winning or losing can become irrelevant.
There was a settlement in the Knox cave suit. In the cave-for-pay trip the jury
decided the woman was (at least?) 50% responsible, and under west Virginia
state law the plaintiff can't collect if they are at least 50% responsible for
their injuries. The landowner was dismissed from the suit well before it
reached trial. In the Spring Hill Cave suit a judge ruled that the landowner
had no obligation to protect the deceased from his own actions, under Tennessee
law. The plaintiffs could appeal, but it appears they don't have much chance of
prevailing. In the case about the fenced pit, the NSS was dropped after
demonstrating that grottos are relatively unfettered, so the NSS had no control
over the fence. I don't recall what happened with the case against the grotto
or the landowner.
In the case of the sinkhole swallowing somebody's property there was a
settlement.
As you note, the cost of successfully defending a lawsuit can be substantial,
but there can be potential costs even if you aren't sued. Your insurance
company is free to exclude certain perils, such as liability to people who get
hurt in your cave, or decline to even offer a policy. There are many caves in
the US that are closed because their owners are concerned about liability even
though they've never had a problem. A rescue in New York several years ago
resulted in people asking legislators to close privately owned caves.
>It's not strictly the point but none of these seem to have anything to do
>with publishing locations? I think the Gaping Gill case here recently
>suggests the landowners are OK
In many states the law specifically says that if somebody is injured through
their own actions on unimproved land the landowner isn't responsible, but
lawyers are quite happy to try and convince a jury that there are special
circumstances that make the landowner responsible anyway. There seems to be an
ever-increasing belief in the US that if something bad happens to somebody that
someone else must be responsible and the injured party deserves to be
compensated, and juries are willing to do that. In many cases the insurance
companies settle without a trial, figuring it's cheaper to definitely pay a
moderate sum than to spend money on a defense and possibly pay anyway. That's
certainly a part of why many people in the US would rather see those
interested in caving do so through some kind of an organized process. Not
revealing cave locations is simply an effort to steer people toward that end.
Dan Twilley, D.C.
Hoyt my man.....we are not talkking about superhighways...so I don't
git yer point...................we are talking about cave locations
being published so that any damn johnque can access it by folks who
somehow think its thare right to do that just because they can do
that......can ya follow that?.....can you stick to that subject
pleeze?......Yer second answer also avoid the point of
discussion........yeah..I agree the idiot who goes into the cave
location he found on the innernet and gits hurt is responsible....but
my question is more complex than that...I question the "assoicated"
guilt of the man who made it possible for the individual who got hurt
to find the damn cave in the first place.......do you or do you not
think that if a person tells someone where they can go git hurt iz
responsible for that person goin there and gittin hurt or
not?..........Hoyt...answer my questions fella........avoidin the
points of my discussions only fools those incapable of detecting
that....it won't work with me...................Yer third question
about "what the fug do you think legal means?"......I was simply
pointing out that just because its legally acceptable for an
individual to indulge himself in behavior that others consider
unacceptable does that make it right?...(this point you don't address
by the way)...by usin the term legal...I wuz just sayin that it wasn't
illegal for the fella to do whatever he was doin.......specifically
fer our "situation"?..I guess I was just sayin that since the
VASSSSSST majority of cavers would say it was not a good idea to
publish cave locations or directions to them that does it make it
right fer some damn devils advocate type who wanted to do it (PUBLISH
CAVE LOCATIONS) jusbecause hecould..was it right fer him to go ahead
and do it inspite of the objectionns of the others......orrrrrrrrrrrr
was it a "better man" thaing for him to do to NOT PUBLISH the
locations?...the next point you make is kinda the whole point of my
letter in the first place!!........yer last point concerning the fact
that skilled cavers git hurt.....gee....I'm real surprised by
that.....yessir....realsurprised.......Hoyt....we are talking about
novices.....or semirookies.........and there finding out about cave
locations via irrresponsible publishing of them by irresponsible
folks........I AM TALKING ABOUT THOSE ROOKIES......NOT THE SKILLED
CAVERS WHO SCREW UP........THAT DEAR HOYT IS ANOTHER
SUBJECT.........PLEEZ stick to the points of discussion......
Dan Twilley, D.C.
often that bad-judgment-injuries occur to rookies and chance-injuries
occur to the experienced...................training for caving?.....it
takes veeeerrrrry little......and it shouldn't take awhole lot of
it...........no.......the people I am interested in NOT MEETING (via
their having an accident)..are those rank amatuers who have never
associated with cavers with a moderate amount of experience....I am
not discussing whether or not we need "national standards"......I am
discussing the safty of whether or not an individual should publish
for public consumption the locations of caves simply because as hoyt
said tonite "and you caint stop me".........
oh......one other thingy......I can read.....I saw where Tony was a uk
email address.........yeah........pleez reread my questions and go a
little deeper than that.....................
Dan Twilley, D.C.
> > 1) Tony is from the UK, and NSS standards don't apply to him.
>
> The standards (if they are any good) should probably apply to all cavers,
> but fortunately as things stand we are exempt :-)
on the edges of the alps is a little different from a Florida
grotto........sorry ya gater fanz........heheheheh.......yessir...it
should be a local thang..........the cavers who cave in the area in
question...should establish what sumbody cavin in their area should be
able to do to safly go thru thair caves..........
there is soooo much difference between locations and countries that
uniform standards either would exist only in a general sense or in the
senses of beauracratttttssssraaattttssssrrrrrraaattttttsssss........yeeeeeeeeehawwwwwww
Dan Twilley, D.C.
Hoyt.....why do you attack the inflatable doggy with such
profanity...........granted not caving at all is more conservative for
caves than allowin people to go into those caves...but, lets git to
your "points"...in the first point you raise about whether the locals
finding out about a cave actually results in the cave being trashed or
not....Hoyt....thats a laughable thaing.....if the locals find out the
cave gits traished boy..........yer second point about landowners
being protect by laws incase some rookie gits killed or
not........Hoyt.....sum of us are concerned about the rookie who got
killed.....sum of us are concerned that inexperienced people git hurt
in caves by going into those caves just because they know where they
are and just beecause they want to.....ya git the point yet
Hoyt?............jeeezzzzussssss...........yer third point....tellin
the boy to never go cavin
again.........howboutyewgivinupcavinHoyt?....lemme ask you anotherway
the question.....who would result in more caves being not f+++++ up by
thair not caving any longer....the guy who sees absolutely nothing
wrong with publishing cave locations fer public consumption or the
fella who is choosey about who he shows a cave to?.....whichone would
caves be better of without Hoyt? .....ifyacain't under stand
that.......welllllll.......
Hoyt Mckagen
> I wouldn't say that. I tried to be his friend, and he pretty well shit
> of me the first opportunity he could.
Ooops here come Sick Paul with some more rants. One should be warned
about this guy, he's manic depressive and it gets the best of him more
than occasionally. Spread any more vicious rumors, Paul? All you need is
a bit of lead in, right, won't be able to resist, wilya?
> been on some cave trips with him.
Like the time Sick Paul got into some bad air, responded slowly to my
calls to him to warn him, then later really confused about the scene
tried to make me seem callous and unconcerned because I didn't go down
into bad air also, to hold his hand and rescue him. Unfortunately when
we put that to a vote online here, the vote was no use in sending a good
caver down into bad air to die too, if that was what was in store.
Hoyt Mckagen
> certainly a part of why many people in the US would rather see those
> interested in caving do so through some kind of an organized process.
>Not
> revealing cave locations is simply an effort to steer people toward that end.
Seriously, not revealing cave locations is a power trip. By holding info
like that secret, NSS and grottos force people to become part of
organized caving, if they wish to cave at all. There certainly is no
justification under law: states have as was noted laws limiting
liability. IOW, a cave is never going to be an attractive nuisance like
a swimming pool. There is no justification under cave damage; most caves
that have suffered have been known to locals for decades or centuries and
have easy access. Caves which have tight or messy entrances and/or are
technical, preserve their pristine nature for a long long time. A perfect
example here is Stay-Hi, which was discovered 30' from a road about 12
years ago. It has an entrance that is tight and scary, and it has been
little twitted. OTOH, New River Cave has been known for two hundred or
more years and with walk-in entrance is worn smooth.
An example of the power trip is found in this note, which I rec'd from
the person who asked for my coords:
"I contacted the local grotto (got their name via the NSS web page) and
was told I had to join NSS to attend a meeting and from there would be
"screened" for my suitability to cave local caves. They may be great
people but I came away with the distinct impression they were a bunch of
clique pricks. It gave me a bad taste in my mouth but I spent $36.00 for
the priviledge of joining NSS. The local grotto doesn't meet again until
March."
So it appears that the attitude of local gtottoes is not unique. And for
a side note, the deliberate twisting of the GNIS database by western
cavers, he says:
"Many of the California and Nevada GNIS coordinates are WAY off base.
I've tried numerous projections and none are consistantly accurate. It
seems that a lot of the coordinates were entered by someone with a hard
on or were translated from another form and corrupted. One cave I am
familiar with is about thirty miles from the alleged coordinate.. . in
the middle of a lake!"
He and I are working to correct this, of course. Anyone else who wishes
to help with the GNIS proj will be given a copy of it beforehand and kept
up to date on corrections.
Hoyt Mckagen
> Hoyt my man.....we are not talkking about superhighways...so I don't
> git yer point.
So if a burgler finds your house from a directory, the publishers of the
directory are at fault? I think you didn't get the point because you
chose not to. How is it that you as a grotto caver have special
privileges regarding getting cave info over me, who is not, or Joe
Hapifut who isn't even NSS?
> being published so that any damn johnque can access it by folks who
> somehow think its thare right to do that just because they can do
> that......can ya follow that?..
Can you follow this: there has never been a correlation shown between
publishing locations and trashing. The items that are probably most
relevant are how long the cave has been known of and how easy it is to
enter. Anyway, why are you more privileged than JohnQ?
I recently began as you know caving with a group of Russians etc who were
rejected by their count by 50 contacts before they found me. They're a
bit different from US cavers, but they rate high on skills. It is
staggering injustice to make people like them go thru a system (the
grotto judgements thing) designed to prevent them caving, when all of
them are skilled climbers and mountaineers and their usual leader managed
expeditions professionally in Europe. So far these guys are so caving
starved and it has been such a hit with them, that they travel up to 800
miles to visit us here. So far they've been limited strictly to caves I
recomend, which are all long-known caves. I'm happy with their base
skills and am working to improve their entire outlook. But I would have
no hesitation in giving them the entire GNIS on simple statement of their
need. That is because they like many many others on the outside, will be
a credit to caving. A second reson is their democratic nature; they want
people to enjoy the sport.
...can you stick to that subject
> pleeze?..
Not if you just continue to brush off good thinking with a repeat of the
same old myths: the idea that if I publish a cave location, that it will
instantly be degraded by hordes of toursits and their rescuers, is stupid
old shit. I've personally proved it false. I've asked several times
if anyone sees a sudden increase in cave trafic due to my giving out
info, that I be notified, and you can bet cavers would shout if so. But
they haven't. When you claim the moon is made of green cheese, it's up to
you to make the showing of evidence, and similarly with the idea of
damage to caves following location publishing.
> discussion........yeah..I agree the idiot who goes into the cave
> location he found on the innernet and gits hurt is responsible....but
> my question is more complex than that
Not under law. LAW, sucker.
>I question the "assoicated"
> guilt of the man who made it possible for the individual who got hurt
> to find the damn cave in the first place.
I've taken a good many cavers to a good many caves and have helped others
by giving them data. So far nobody has been hurt as result. So I don't
see a need to feel guilty, you?
> think that if a person tells someone where they can go git hurt iz
> responsible for that person goin there and gittin hurt or
> not?
No, it's a free country. If I gave bad info or none to a guy who later
hurt himself thru his ignorance, then I'd feel bad.
> about "what the fug do you think legal means?"......I was simply
> pointing out that just because its legally acceptable for an
> individual to indulge himself in behavior that others consider
> unacceptable does that make it right?.
Yes it does. Laws follow public opinion, which right now to take one
example is why feminists have managed to skewer the US Constituion with
biased shit like VAWA.
> VASSSSSST majority of cavers would say it was not a good idea to
> publish cave locations or directions to them that does it make it
> right fer some damn devils advocate type who wanted to do it (PUBLISH
> CAVE LOCATIONS) jusbecause hecould.
It's right or wrong depending only on the validity of the reasoning. If
cavers want to make that decision based on fact, I would support that.
IOW if someone proves caves are trashed more after the location is put on
internet, I would stand against that. However, that has never been shown
and for that matter I'm the only one who ever tried to get that info.
> novices.....or semirookies.........and there finding out about cave
> locations via irrresponsible publishing of them by irresponsible
> folks........I AM TALKING ABOUT THOSE ROOKIES......NOT THE SKILLED
> CAVERS WHO SCREW UP.
You're merely repeating yourself. Can you show me that novices and
rookies are more often hurt and do more damage to caves? I thought not.
Hoyt Mckagen
> should be a local thang..........the cavers who cave in the area in
> question...should establish what sumbody cavin in their area should be
> able to do to safly go thru thair caves.
Crap, it's a contract between individual cavers and LOs, nothing more or
less.
beauracratttttssssraaattttssssrrrrrraaattttttsssss........yeeeeeeeeehawwwwwww
Yo need to get your meds adjusted. I personally wouldn't cave with you
because you appear irrational.
Hoyt Mckagen
> your "points"...in the first point you raise about whether the locals
> finding out about a cave actually results in the cave being trashed or
> not....Hoyt....thats a laughable thaing.....if the locals find out the
> cave gits traished boy
It looks as if you didn't understand that I agree. But
locals don't find out about caves thru location info, they
hear about it on the local gossip line. Recently a group of
builders was working on a house across road from cave. They
routinely went in on their breaks, tried to remove a big stal. They
didn't need me to tell them where the cave was, they could see the
entrance.
> not........Hoyt.....sum of us are concerned about the rookie who got
> killed..
Then you should put your efforts into things like highway safety, were
the result is so much more unequivocol. IOW, first prove that having
locations increases idiot casualtiers, not just assume it dopes.
> the boy to never go cavin
> again.........howboutyewgivinupcavinHoyt?.
Nope, I'm content with the small amount of damage I do just
walking thru. If he's not content with that, he needs to give it up.
> the question.....who would result in more caves being not f+++++ up by
> thair not caving any longer....the guy who sees absolutely nothing
> wrong with publishing cave locations fer public consumption or the
> fella who is choosey about who he shows a cave to?
Not caving by either individual is going absolutely prevent damage of any
sort. Any caving by any individual is going to result in some. But the
idea that caves will instantly become highways solely because locations
are known, is silly shit.
Dan: suppose I publish some locations in your area and you monitor the
caves. Tell us all what you found, OK?
Jo Schaper
"Dan Twilley, D.C." wrote:
> Jo Schaper <josc...@socket.net> wrote in message news:<3C2343B3...@socket.net>...
> > "Dan Twilley, D.C." wrote:
> >
> > > > > Dan Twilley, D.C. wrote:
> > > > > > accidents involving people who are properly trained are
> > > > > > more rare than accidents involving the improperly trained....
> > > > >
> > >
>
>
> > Dan:
> >
> > 1) Tony is from the UK, and NSS standards don't apply to him.
> > 2) Define "adequately trained." Cavers in the US scream bloody murder every time someone suggests a
> > uniform training regimen for organized cavers, as a group they are positively allergic to any concept of
> > training certification. And, for the most part, such training would not be a "bozo filter" as literally
> > any person with a flashlight and a notion can go into some local cave, assuming they also are ignoring
> > trespass law.
> > Also, in case you haven't noticed, membership in the NSS is open to everyone, regardless of
> > qualification. These set caving off from other adventure sports, such as SCUBA or skydiving, both which
> > have a training system, and a "portal" which you need the training card to get through (filling tanks, or
> > getting on an airplane). Granted, if a person is technically and financially able, they can bypass these
> > filters, but the majority of enthusiasts go in by the "wide door."
> >
> > While the NSS definitely has some good info, and provides a good social base, it is not a "portal" to, or
> > any assurance of the ability to cave.
> > best regards,
> > Jo
> Jo.......caving is a very siimple and safe sport........it is most
> often that bad-judgment-injuries occur to rookies and chance-injuries
> occur to the experienced...................training for caving?.....it
> takes veeeerrrrry little......and it shouldn't take awhole lot of
> it........
Sorry, I disagree with you in your blanket statement. How much training/experience depends on what sort of
caving, as well as person's athletic capability/common sense. Period. I have safely taken a 3 year old under
her own power into a wild cave where she had no more than a hard hat and a flashlight. There are also many
caves where I would never venture myself-- knowing my own limits and capabilities, and as we all know, there
are cave where only the professional-level athlete with much experience and specialized equipment dare to go.
> ...no.......the people I am interested in NOT MEETING (via
> their having an accident)..are those rank amatuers who have never
> associated with cavers with a moderate amount of experience....
In defense of the non-affiliated cavers of the world, I think this is an unfair statement. With a very few
exceptions, all cavers are amateurs. About the only difference I can see between "organized" cavers and
"disorganized" ones is that at least some organized cavers learn from the mistakes of others, and don't have to
make them all themselves before they learn.Even that is only partially true-- the safety info that org. cavers
get out there is generally pretty good. Since most people in the US can read these days, the basics are already
out there for anyone interested. Other than that, one "learns by doing". With the exception of teenage boys, I
find independent cavers no worse, and some better, than affiliated ones. And some of the boys do eventually
regain their sense, usually by age 25.
> I am
> not discussing whether or not we need "national standards"......I am
> discussing the safty of whether or not an individual should publish
> for public consumption the locations of caves simply because as hoyt
> said tonite "and you caint stop me".........
There is this concept that cavers do/should/can control cave locations. Impossible. If people want to go
caving, and they live in a cave rich area, they can get locations the same way cavers do in the first place--
talking to locals, ridgewalking, looking in old books and so forth. Safety isn't really an issue, here. Just
because you know where the caves are doesn't give you the right to visit them in the US, which is a correlation
utterly lost on many city/suburban cavers. Somebody OWNS all the land. Permission must be obtained. Otherwise
you are trespassing, except perhaps in the case of open-access caves on government land. But you never know
which caves are open-access if you don't ask, and in asking, permission is given.
I am all for trespassers getting a seatful of birdshot, or a citation from land managers. I wish more
did, because then, those who do play by the rules would gain more respect as "good guys". And if a landowner
doesn't want people on his/her land--well, those are the breaks.
>
>
> oh......one other thingy......I can read.....
But you obviously have such a poor command of English punctuation it is rather a trial to read your posts. ee
cummings
youre not.
Regards,
Jo
Tony Brocklebank
<oztot...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3c252c78$0$35620$4c5e...@news.erinet.com...
> Tony, question on an impression I've gotten, and hopefully you can
> clear up for me.
>
> Sounds like many if not most of U.K. caves have vertical entrances,
> where access is by rope, ladder, or winch. And if so, I would think
> that someone has to be fairly motivated to come up with the equipment
> to gain access, no matter how easily the entrance location can be
> found. Is this true?
>
> In the Kentucky area I cave in, probably the majority of caves have
> horizontal access, or mild vertical that can be easily done by
> freeclimbing.
>
> --
> Oz
>
> "Not all who wander are lost..."
I suppose we might give that impression, but it's not really true. It
depends which area you are in, a fair number of Yorkshire caves have
vertical entrances, including a lot of the "classic" systems and caves.
Some involve pitches, (the winches are really only for the general public
and a couple of clubs at Gaping Gill) which are usually laddered or roped.
That said most caves in the UK have horizontal entrances, although many of
these have vertical sections in them.
The Yorkshire Dales contains more caves than any other area, but there are
caves in other areas - Derbyshire, the Mendips, the Forest of Dean, Scotland
and South Wales (not an exclusive list). A lot of Dales caves have one or
more pitches, and so many British club cavers have fairly extensive vertical
experience. You could cave for years here without going up or down a pitch,
but you'd probably be missing out.
Most caves here are within fairly easy reach of cities, and large towns. A
lot of entrances are pretty easy to find if you have a little basic
knowlege. I suppose we work on the basis that to get that basic knowlege
you need to learn a little, and that if you're bright enough to do that you
are unlikely to commit suicide. Maybe not foolproof, but the statistics
seem to bear out the theory.
Tony
AmMurphree
>From: Hoyt Mckagen Nobat...@i-plSPAMus.net
>Date: 12/20/01 9:59 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C22B3...@i-plSPAMus.net>
>
>kareful kaver wrote:
>> edge!Let me say now Hoyt that your comments here are completly
>> uncalled for.As a US caver I am embarassed
>> by you and your comments.
Yes, Hoyt's an embarrasment - but fortunately not representative of the caving
community as a whole and NOT actually a part of it.
>
>You should also be embarrassed by Ann's opening fire. Not nearly so
>patient as you, she didn't give it a chance at all, just started up
>spouting. I certainly have a right to show my disdain for someone
>like that.
>
NOT Really. Hoyt's reputation precedes him. Every caver I've ever talked to
that's ever checked out alt.caving has said, "Yeah, its cool - but that Hoyt
dude SUCKS"...
>>Also as a professional in the motorcycle
>> industry
>> I am also embarassed that you claim to be a "mechanic"as well.
>
Geez, I've checked out "Best M/C repair" and it seems like a total 'off
target'. If McKagen is so smart, why is his specialty Honda's?? The real
money is in Harleys - but I figure he's too much a chickenshit to deal with
bikers. (Who'd probably take about an ounce of his bad attitude and give it
BACK to him big time!)
-A.M.
AmMurphree
>From: mott...@hotmail.com (kareful kaver)
>Date: 12/21/01 4:55 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id:
Well, what he occasionally does is use aliases or other internet services to
represent himself as someone else who claims to be a caver friend or someone
that he's made one of his trips with.
Why this jerk keeps this crap up is a mystery to me. He was shunned by a
grotto some time ago for making some formal kind of rape accusation - because
some enebriated female he was after at a party had rejected him - (yet she had
the hots for someone else and "stayed-over").
Perhaps this is his sick way of trying to get back at cavers. It defies
reason.
But arent you glad that most cavers are NOT like this person? I am. Cavers
might not be the "cream of the crop" by many societal standards - but they
certainly are the very best kind of people to depend on underground! They are
as a group, the most intellegent, free-thinking, independant and trustworthy
people I know of.
-A.M.
Nigel Robertson
"Dan Twilley, D.C." <twi...@vol.com> wrote in message
news:2bde9920.01122...@posting.google.com...
And so it seems to be with rescue statistics because as Tony says, there are
very few rescue call-outs in the UK to people who could be termed "without
experience" or who are not part of a group of people that could be termed
"experienced" and are, de facto, mentoring the inexperienced underground.
Yet there is a similar dichotomy between the US and the UK in the
availability of cave locations. I could go and take three guide books off
my shelf and list here the locations of about 99% of the known caves in my
local region (the Yorkshire Dales). Similarly for just about every other
caving region in the UK. These are interesting conundrums but they have
been extensively discussed here in the past to no real conclusion apart from
a tacit agreement to differ (i.e. after hundreds of posts, everyone
eventually got sick of the subject and gave up arguing!)
Nigel
Nigel Robertson
Rubbish!
Anyway, as Tony has pointed out, in UK caving the rescue stats contradict
your earlier statements so mountains are irrelevant.
Nigel
Nigel Robertson
>
> Hoyt my man.....we are not talkking about superhighways...so I don't
> git yer point...................we are talking about cave locations
> being published so that any damn johnque can access it by folks who
> somehow think its thare right to do that just because they can do
> that......can ya follow that?.....
No. I'm getting lost and I think it's still the first paragraph.
can you stick to that subject
> pleeze?......Yer second answer also avoid the point of
> discussion........yeah..I agree the idiot who goes into the cave
> location he found on the innernet and gits hurt is responsible....but
> my question is more complex than that...I question the "assoicated"
> guilt of the man who made it possible for the individual who got hurt
> to find the damn cave in the first place.......do you or do you not
> think that if a person tells someone where they can go git hurt iz
> responsible for that person goin there and gittin hurt or
What about the people who first engendered a sense of adventure and
exploration into the postulated accident waiting to happen. Is this, in
fact, not one of the cultural mainstays of your country? Are they guilty
too? What about the mother who let her son or daughter learn to ride a bike
with the associated falls, bruises and scrapes? What if she taught her
offspring to pick themselves up again, dust themselves off and try again -
is she guilty too? Your rhetoric supports the control of knowledge and thus
the power that flows from that. I disagree with your sentiments.
> not?..........Hoyt...answer my questions fella........avoidin the
> points of my discussions only fools those incapable of detecting
> that....it won't work with me...................Yer third question
> about "what the fug do you think legal means?"......I was simply
> pointing out that just because its legally acceptable for an
> individual to indulge himself in behavior that others consider
> unacceptable does that make it right?...(this point you don't address
> by the way)...by usin the term legal...I wuz just sayin that it wasn't
> illegal for the fella to do whatever he was doin.......specifically
> fer our "situation"?..I guess I was just sayin that since the
> VASSSSSST majority of cavers would say it was not a good idea to
And the evidence to support that quantitative statement?
> publish cave locations or directions to them that does it make it
> right fer some damn devils advocate type who wanted to do it (PUBLISH
> CAVE LOCATIONS) jusbecause hecould..was it right fer him to go ahead
> and do it inspite of the objectionns of the others......orrrrrrrrrrrr
So if it's that bad and so many people get hurt as a result of it, why
hasn't some politician decided to garner a few extra votes from the caving
community by making it illegal?
> was it a "better man" thaing for him to do to NOT PUBLISH the
> locations?...the next point you make is kinda the whole point of my
> letter in the first place!!........yer last point concerning the fact
> that skilled cavers git hurt.....gee....I'm real surprised by
> that.....yessir....realsurprised.......Hoyt....we are talking about
> novices.....or semirookies.........and there finding out about cave
> locations via irrresponsible publishing of them by irresponsible
> folks........I AM TALKING ABOUT THOSE ROOKIES......NOT THE SKILLED
> CAVERS WHO SCREW UP........THAT DEAR HOYT IS ANOTHER
> SUBJECT.........PLEEZ stick to the points of discussion......
But you compare your rookies to experienced cavers when you discuss the
proportion of accidents happening to each group, so he has hardly introduced
a new subject.
Nigel
Tony Brocklebank
edition - and they certainly didn't get reprinted every year).
For those who have never seen one this is a guide to Dales caves that any
owner of the current guides would easily recognise as the forerunner to the
guides we have today. We have around fifty years of track record publishing
guides that list the locations, descriptions, gear requirements, and access
requirements for UK caves. Warnings are given in the guides, an idea of the
difficulty of caves, indication in some cases of where rescue wouldn't be
possible and of flood risk. Basic rules, such as don't litter etc are
printed.
The end result is that information is readily available - the last series
were on the shelf of a lot of larger book stores.
You can argue that this is coincidence, but then in most fields you would
argue that knowlege prevents rather than creates problems. Overall if you
want to prevent damage to caves and accidents to the inexperienced then give
people the information they need.
Nigel's right, we have been round the houses on this before, but as long as
the discussion remains civilised there seems no reason not to carry it on.
Who knows, we may convince a few of you.
Dan, you may not realise that many, many British cavers have caved in Spain,
the skills are pretty similar and the caves are excellent. The Alps,
though, are in France. I think you'll find a good caver here gets on just
fine in Florida, and I'm sure the same applies in reverse.
Tony
Nigel Robertson
<ni...@dont-spam-me-im-vegetarian.easegill.worldonline.co.uk> wrote in
message news:a05pij$j5502$1...@ID-30451.news.dfncis.de...
WavyKaver
>From: "Tony Brocklebank" to...@laptopbits.co.uk
>Date: 12/21/01 7:51 AM Central Standard Time
Crap. I hate to agree with him too, but not many beginner skydivers get killed
either although the lesser skilled are more vulnerable. I'm pretty sure that
25% of the fatalaties are within the first to tenth jump, another 25% of the
fatalities are within the first 100 to 200 jumps. Then - the next 50% is
spread out up to very big numbers, like the guy that gets killed with 3 or 4
thousand jumps.
In the last 3 years, off the top of my head, I can think of 6 cavers who have
died - I knew them well or remotely but I knew them.
The first, named Christy died on-rope due to a freak accident. A big rock
seperated from a dome without warning. It hit her in the head and broke her
neck.
The second, named Alex fell off a cliff in Mexico. No one saw it happen and no
one knows why. The last people that saw him were at a bar in Rio Catorce.
The third, named Joe was a real hot-shot caver. I bought most of my vertical
gear from him (incidently - the rest of my gear I had bought from #2, above).
Over complacency is what most cavers who knew him attribute his demise. He was
bolt-climbing a promising dome. Some extra safety in his rigging probably
could have saved his life.
The fourth, named Pat was an older woman who died in a traffic accident on the
way to her home in Brownwood in-route from caving activity near San Antonio.
She left her lane and into the path of an oncoming 18-wheeler. She probably
fell asleep at the wheel or had something like a stroke or heart attack
although nothing indicated these kind of health problems.
The fifth, name Orren was in his fifties. He died of essentially natural
causes.
The sixth, who's name doesnt come to me right now, was killed in front of his
home while checking out an apparent car burglary in Fort Worth.
So - how many "newbies" died? None that I know of. Two out of six - in a
cave. That doesnt sound like caving is the safest thing that one can do, does
it?
Thing is - I dont like coordinate posting. Its just not necessary. Cavers
know the risks - the un-initiated do not. The blood-pressure of the
anti-coordinate posting-union (which I'm a part of) probably suffers more than
the health of caves or humans as a result.
So to put my rambling to a halt - I'd just like to say: People that post cave
locations to piss other people off are obviously jerks and I think everyone
familiar with this newsgroup knows exactly what I'm talking about. -AND- It
probably actually doesnt make much, (if any) difference if it happens or not!
-WaVy
>> McKagen Said:
>> Crap. Skilled cavers get hurt too, every day. Read NSS Accident Report
>> sometime.
>>
kareful kaver
Hi AM,Yes I am glad most cavers are not like Hoyt,infact I know they
are not.
Hoyt is a caving accident that has gone unreported.An exception to
Darwin's rule
of natural selection that nature will correct one day,sooner than
later, I hope.
May all his rope be too short!
I have entertained myself with a google search on Hoyt Mckagen an have
been ammused with results(recommended for those that want to know the
enemy).Although
not normally what I do with spare time,but sometimes nessesary to know
the foe!
Seems that no american woman would have him,poor gene pool source
suspected, he has lured a Russian woman from Siberia to be his
wife,Tonya I believe,probably a nice person but reflects to the
desperate person he may be,pathedic,I feel for his family.Try the
search,I recommend it,have a laugh,even found some pictures
so I will know who to give a fat lip to when I see him in a
crowd.Really those
those comments he made to you were uncalled for.Poor upbringing,no
mannors,some blame needs to fall on his parents,but he is almost or is
60,what a loser.
Grottos should shun someone like Hoyt,and applaud them for doing so.It
is obvious to me that a severe personality disorder is present,and no
one can fault
their judgement in trying to make a comfortable place for members.I
can only imagine being in a meeting where his presence maybe a
distraction,at best!
AM,Did you get an answer to you Battery question?Do a search for
Candlepower Forums they have done some reviews and test there,if not I
will share my experience on batts,as small as it maybe,some info
instead of slander would be
welcome.
Let me close by wishing all"good"cavers a Merry Christmas !
HOHOHOHOHO from Kareful Kaver
kareful kaver
childish!
They should be sent to bed without their supper!Russian stewwed
potatoes in Hoyts case.Sorry I couldnt help myself,poor attempt at
some hummor.
Merry HOHO,,,Kareful Kaver
Tony Brocklebank
here. Our guides list a lot of other detail as well, as I mentioned above.
I don't think Hoyt's posting of simply names and locations is particularly
useful, but if you added access details, basic descriptions, an idea of
difficulties and hazards and so on I think you'd find you the net effect
would be beneficial.
The anti posting lobby, for want of a better term, seem to base their
argument on two very simplistic statements. First that posting would lead
to hordes of inexperienced would be cavers hurting/maiming/killing
themselves, and second that these same inexperienced vandals will trash the
caves. I simply don't believe that there is any evidence to back this up,
and that by making information hard to come by you are if anything probably
increasing the number of knowlege free individuals who you worry so much
about. We have plenty of idiots in this country, just as you do, it's much
easier for them to find a cave here, but they generally prefer daubing
slogans on railway bridges to stealing stalactites.
In my experience people, cavers or not, who are sufficiently interested to
make the effort to go underground will soak up and use the knowlege you can
give them like sponges, they'll read the book, watch the video, etc, etc.
You obviously agree with that because you encourage people to join grottoes
and gain experience, but you are only happy for them to get that experience
under your influence. This suggests that the policy is more about control
and influence (politics by another name) than practicality. In an area the
size of the States there must be thousands of people interested in caves who
are too far from a grotto, don't want to join a grotto, prefer their own
company etc. There are many here, and geographically few in this country
are more than a few miles from a club. These seem to be the people who you
need to worry about (you even seem to have a seperate name for them) and the
ones you need to get more info to.
Tony
WavyKaver <wavy...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011224011318...@mb-mg.aol.com...
Tony Brocklebank
far lower life form than Hoyt. Why not cut out the personal insults and
concentrate on the issues.
Tony
kareful kaver <mott...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5377c68c.01122...@posting.google.com...
Hoyt Mckagen
> Yes, Hoyt's an embarrasment - but fortunately not representative of the caving
> community as a whole and NOT actually a part of it.
Interesting how you make your judgements based on what others seem to
think. Ever make up your own mind based on actual observations? But then,
once a cunt, always a cunt.
> NOT Really. Hoyt's reputation precedes him. Every caver I've ever talked to
> that's ever checked out alt.caving has said, "Yeah, its cool - but that Hoyt
> dude SUCKS".
Most cavers thought alt.caving was a bad idea and few participate. My
reputation didn't prevent me from having a fine time with four cavers
yesterday, at least one of whom is a regular reader of this NG. BTW,
they're coming down for a short stay and we will be caving again
tomorrow.
> Geez, I've checked out "Best M/C repair" and it seems like a total 'off
> target'. If McKagen is so smart, why is his specialty Honda's??
It isn't. my specialty is special repairs and machining. However, the
Honda big bore kits sure do make the money; I sold over $1000 of them
last month.
> money is in Harleys -
The real idiots are on Harleys too. Ever hear of volume sales?
> BACK to him big time!)
Suck me. No, that's OK, I'll just pretend it's you next time somebody
does suck me.
Hoyt Mckagen
> Well, what he occasionally does is use aliases or other internet services to
> represent himself as someone else who claims to be a caver friend or someone
> that he's made one of his trips with.
Yer a lying bitch! You're a pimple on the ass of the caver community. I
have never falsified a post and you're just digging a hole for yourself.
> He was shunned by a
> grotto some time ago for making some formal kind of rape accusation - because
> some enebriated female he was after at a party had rejected him - (yet she had
> the hots for someone else and "stayed-over").
This is a 100% lie. Let me name the serial rapist again: Scott Hoss
Liefer. He was investigated by the admin at VPI, and one result of that
was the changing of the location of the 95 convention welcome party, from
a private wooded area to a well-lighted place under stadium. Of course I
caught hell for this at the time from cavers, but it's something that
cannot be sneezed off.
As for party, you sure do have some fucked up sources. The inebriated
lady was sleeping it off in a side room, while conveniently everybody
else went downstairs, except by chance myself. Shortly I saw Leiffer run
out of the room where she was, and shortly she came out with is name on
her lips. That was merely one of hoss' sexual assaults.
As for shunning, I suppose you could say that. However, I've shunned them
too and for better reasons: rapes, supplying underagers with alcohol,
reselling alcohol, dirty tricks played on fellow cavers, elitism (ask any
caver in Va about VPIG for example), and so forth.
> Perhaps this is his sick way of trying to get back at cavers.
What's your excuse, cunt?
Hoyt Mckagen
> Hi AM,Yes I am glad most cavers are not like Hoyt,infact I know they
> are not.
Good for me!
> Seems that no american woman would have him,poor gene pool source
> suspected,
Actually, I got tired of the losers you find in my age group in USA. The
good ones are all happily married and have three kids. The bad ones have
a divorce and an attitude.
> he has lured a Russian woman from Siberia to be his
> wife,Tonya I believe,
Moscow, and you spelled her name wrong. She's far, far better than most
US women.
> desperate person he may be,pathedic,I feel for his family.
Why don't you ask them?
> so I will know who to give a fat lip to when I see him in a
> crowd.
You must like the idea of a broken arm, asshole.
Hoyt Mckagen
> Rejected, or simply told "I'm too busy", "I'm not a tour guide", "I've
> got other commitments"?
No excuses, please; they were in their own words rejected by ~50
contacts. You're arguing that there were reasons for that let alone
justification is like grasping at straws. I had time, I guided, and I
shuffled my committments. Surely one of the many people behind the 50
contacts could have done the same, in interest of caving? You just don't
know what happent, do you? That rejection was a mistake: these guys are
skilled, organized, enthusiastic, strong cavers and good pleasant
companions. And by now they're properly convinced that they've found a
true friend whose advice can be trusted and who bears them good will in
return. And that is proven fact. I'd go anywhere with Boss D, he's one of
the finest people I ever met and none of you in here good-willed or bad
could hold a candle high enough to illuminate his toenails. Organized
caving has lost a fine group that would be credit to any grotto. And I
have them for my own. They will as consequence of the above attitude
NEVER cave with a grotto or be members of NSS. That was solely because of
grotto reactions, really typical reactions at that. I didn't even have to
play spoiler on all that; they just naturally were repelled by it. Laugh
it off if you can.
> Has the continental drift sped up? Only 800 miles from Russia to
> Blacksburg, VA?
I don't suppose it ever ocurred to you that they all live in USA? It
would certainly be more convenient to cave with local grottoes for some
of them. This time some will even come from L Coast USA. If any grotto
wants to prove me wrong about the above attitude, let them drop me a note
and I'll give them a second chance to get back to some of them in their
respective regions. Then later I will of course ask for their
respective opinions of self vs grottos. Kareful Kaver and A. Cunt
Murphee needn't apply.
Hoyt Mckagen
> guides we have today. We have around fifty years of track record publishing
> guides that list the locations, descriptions, gear requirements, and access
> requirements for UK caves.
Actually, so do we. It wasn't until late 80s early 90s that convention
manuals stopped giving coords. WVSS still publsihes locations in all
their bulletins. I don't suppose the people who are against that practice
have given much thought to the fact that WV cavers are among the world's
finest and have made among the most contributions, hence their opinions
should be respected.
Warnings are given in the guides, an idea of the
> difficulty of caves, indication in some cases of where rescue wouldn't be
> possible and of flood risk.
Right. Yesterday I caved with people who had access to considerable
info on WV. The books listed the requirements for the caves very
nicely. The moral is that if you want to cave with perfect confidence one
should go to WV and use their resources. Or,of course one may visit Tom's
Creek Camp and get much the same treatemnt.
Hoyt Mckagen
> locations to piss other people off are obviously jerks and I think everyone
> familiar with this newsgroup knows exactly what I'm talking about.
What about people who post to help others?
> probably actually doesnt make much, (if any) difference if it happens or not!
Quite true
Hoyt Mckagen
> I don't think Hoyt's posting of simply names and locations is particularly
> useful, but if you added access details, basic descriptions, an idea of
> difficulties and hazards and so on I think you'd find you the net effect
> would be beneficial.
I just give them what I have. If Kareful and A Cunt want to, they or
other cavers can add all the detail they want. And I agree that would be
helpful not only to the person asking for info but to me, who will add it
to the source files.
BTW, I rec'd a copy of a book from the guy who asked for locations of
me; grateful I guess. It's about trout fishing in Sierra Nevada, and he's
a member of Sierra Club. Has conservationist roots in the area that go
back to his grand-dad, probably among his family were Sierra Club
founders. I didn't give it any thought beforehand because like I said
info is power, but anyone who objects to this guy having this kind of
info truly has shit for brains. One only needs to look at the very first
few pages of his book to see how truly nature-minded he is. I'm not a
fisher, haven't dunked a worm since I was ten. But the book is
fascinating and illuninating. You couldn't pick one person out of
thousands who less deserves the grotto runaround, which he correctly
defined as being product of clique-prick outlook.
> defacing railroad bridges
Yeehah! Or as in the case of the viaduct in Ingleton, defacing formations
on railway bridges. Can you believe that in only 100 years that piece of
stonework grew stals 3-5' feet long?
> You obviously agree with that because you encourage people to join grottoes
> and gain experience, but you are only happy for them to get that experience
> under your influence.
>This suggests that the policy is more about control
> and influence (politics by another name) than practicality.
Most advocacy for joining grottoes is to prevent caving, not improve its
quality. I caved with VPIG for two-three years and nobody showed the
slightest interest in having help with surveys or digs. It was always the
same old training caves. I must admit some of that came because I do have
a superior attitude. I will add in defense of that, having raced
motorcycles in the woods and on tracks for 24 years, there is NOTHING in
caving by comparison that is EITHER tough OR dangerous. I routinely
out-perform kids in caves to this day that are half my age, based on
conditioning I achieved then. What may have seemed cocky or lacking in
judgement about my caving prowess in the early days was simply based on
sterner standards than caving will ever have. But at that I never tried
stuff early on that wasn't demo'd by more experienced if not more skilled
cavers. To give just one example of that, rope work is nothing more than
taking care of technique; it is essentially static in that you have all
the time you want to decide the what/how of it. It's not nearly the same
when threading the needle between trees with three inches of handlebar
clearance, at 35-50 MPH. I personally would like to hear of A Cunt doing
just ONE thing as exciting let alone demanding.
InflatableDog
>From: Hoyt Mckagen Nobat...@i-plSPAMus.net
>Date: 12/24/01 9:27 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C2749...@i-plSPAMus.net>
>
>AmMurphree wrote:
>> Yes, Hoyt's an embarrasment - but fortunately not representative of the
>caving
>> community as a whole and NOT actually a part of it.
>
>Interesting how you make your judgements based on what others seem to
>think. Ever make up your own mind based on actual observations? But then,
>once a cunt, always a cunt.
>
>> NOT Really. Hoyt's reputation precedes him. Every caver I've ever talked
>to
>> that's ever checked out alt.caving has said, "Yeah, its cool - but that
>Hoyt
>> dude SUCKS".
>
>Most cavers thought alt.caving was a bad idea and few participate. My
>reputation didn't prevent me from having a fine time with four cavers
>yesterday, at least one of whom is a regular reader of this NG. BTW,
>they're coming down for a short stay and we will be caving again
>tomorrow.
>
>>
>> Geez, I've checked out "Best M/C repair" and it seems like a total 'off
>> target'. If McKagen is so smart, why is his specialty Honda's??
>
>It isn't. my specialty is special repairs and machining. However, the
>Honda big bore kits sure do make the money; I sold over $1000 of them
>last month.
>
>>
>> money is in Harleys -
>
>The real idiots are on Harleys too. Ever hear of volume sales?
>
Hey - Hoytee,
Is this instance just a fluke, or do you REALLY have a problem with women?
(I'll side with the jury on this one.)
Hey Tanya - they arent all abusive pricks like the one your with!
And hey, what part of volume sales do YOU not understand? What motorcycle
company, (here in the U.S. - btw) sells more units than its foriegn
competitors? Jeez, you ARE just a dumbass blowhard and it would be VERY fun to
introduce you to some M/C 1%ers.
_WOOF_
kareful kaver
> kareful kaver wrote:
> > Hi AM,Yes I am glad most cavers are not like Hoyt,infact I know they
> > are not.
>
> Good for me!
> > Seems that no american woman would have him,poor gene pool source
> > suspected,
>
> Actually, I got tired of the losers you find in my age group in USA. The
> good ones are all happily married and have three kids. The bad ones have
> a divorce and an attitude.
>
saying?
> > he has lured a Russian woman from Siberia to be his
> > wife,Tonya I believe,
>
> Moscow, and you spelled her name wrong. She's far, far better than most
> US women.
>
My apologies on wrong location,and misspelling her name,it was hard to
translate
and I am not up on Soviet geography,it was purely accident,forgive me
please,
it should be the thought that counts,eh?
> > desperate person he may be,pathedic,I feel for his family.
>
> Why don't you ask them?
>
Well,no doubt she should feel at home with you as it should have
simularites as
to the USSR
1-lives with out of control dictator
2-probably has severly slanted info
3-probably has threats made towards her for conficting ideas that may
differ with dictator's,like,you must like the idea of a broken
arm,honey
4-probably has severly limited feedom and comunication outside of home
5-probably has no freedom to speek freely witout fear of reprisals
ie:having her coords pubicly displayed on internet for the world to
see
6-probably does have it better here as long as she obeys her
husband/comrade/dictator
7-you know there has to be some propaganda,its obvious from what weve
read!
Have you told her that they have torn down the wall in Berlin?Might be
a dumb question,but you never know,surely she knows,and I will quit
callin her surely
(couldnt help that,haha)
> > so I will know who to give a fat lip to when I see him in a
> > crowd.
> You deserve it dude,you would be gettin out easy,but dont lose any sleep over it dude,its not like I am going to hunt you down,kinda like a handshake, probably be best friends afterwards..........NOT!
> You must like the idea of a broken arm, asshole. Is this a threat?
>
My lawyer is better than your lawyer,so you need to know I will
sue,ooops,that
is your response,sorry didnt mean to get ahead of you.
And if you havent noticed I have avoided the potty mouth name
calling,I am more of a smartass,I for one if not others would feel
asshole is more becoming for you as you more personify the word,tailor
made and fits you well,kinda like it was made for ya,dude!In the
future please go deeper in your 4 lettered vocabulary and make a
selection,it is starting to sound limited in your mastery of the
English spoken language,dude.Remember your image is more important
than anybody elses.
I do want to apologize if Hoyt now starts postin more coords,it wasnt
my intent,
sometimes he is more predictable than others.
HOHO Kareful Kaver
Nigel Robertson
<Infantile drivel snipped>
> AM,Did you get an answer to you Battery question?Do a search for
> Candlepower Forums they have done some reviews and test there,if not I
> will share my experience on batts,as small as it maybe,some info
> instead of slander would be
> welcome.
Why didn't you just share your battery experiences then instead of all the
puffed up threatening twaddle?
Nigel
InflatableDog
"fair" lawyer. Considering the law of averages, go figgure - mottoman
-WooF!
P.S. I dont think you REALLY have much to worry about.
kareful kaver
Well Nigel,Call it chivalry I guess.I did take offense to some
uncalled for
comments of the sexual nature towards AM.I am interested in exchange
of info in a friendly manor.In the event of conflict disputs settled
in a friendly exchange
in discussion,without the name calling,agreed.
In reflection of my previous posts,which with my own
acknowledgment,may have been a bit strong,but so were the comments
that envoked my response.
Please accept my apologizes if someone is offended by what I felt was
honorable
and good will intended.
cheers from across the pond,,,,,,Kareful Kaver
kareful kaver
> I'm not surprised you hide your identity, your starting to come across as a
> far lower life form than Hoyt. Why not cut out the personal insults and
> concentrate on the issues.
> Tony
> Hello Tony,Did not realize hiding my identity would be an issue,I know who I am.I am no one special,just a caver,just that plain,just that simple.Serves no purpose.I do regret stooping to the insults,I will search for restraint.Your observations have been noted.Now if other parties concerned would be so kind.
Kareful Kaver
AmMurphree
>Message-id: <5377c68c.01122...@posting.google.com>
>
>"Nigel Robertson"
><ni...@dont-spam-me-im-vegetarian.easegill.worldonline.co.uk> wrote in
>message news:<a080bq$jg5qo$1...@ID-30451.news.dfncis.de>...
>> "kareful kaver" <mott...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:5377c68c.01122...@posting.google.com...
>>
>>
>> <Infantile drivel snipped>
>>
>> > AM,Did you get an answer to you Battery question?Do a search for
>> > Candlepower Forums they have done some reviews and test there,if not I
>> > will share my experience on batts,as small as it maybe,some info
>> > instead of slander would be
>> > welcome.
>>
>> Why didn't you just share your battery experiences then instead of all the
>> puffed up threatening twaddle?
>>
>> Nigel
>
I'm sorry, Nigel - perhaps I have a real short temper for jerks that unload on
people for no apparent reason. Threatening? Not really. Perhaps I was
expressing what I'd find very satisfying were I to encounter such a person
in-person.
I really have not done so much investigation on battery types and their
applications other than the info. I've gleaned from other cavers. Hey, I'm not
an underground lighting engineer and I've probably spent way too much time
keeping-up with this newsgroup (and related abusive posts) already.
Maybe I've been painted as a flamer due to my hostile feelings toward people
who treat women (or any other threat) as they do.
Consider perhaps how you might respond to my responce to a thread whichYOU had
unreasonably verbally assaulted a person just to make yourself look or feel
superior. (I doubt that any emotionally or mentally healthy person would.)
Ok - maybe its a reach, but would you find it unreasonable to respond, Nigel?
So I should just blame myself for Hoyt's unfathomable hostility and vulgar
verbal attacks?
Healthy Boxing Day - A. M.
Hoyt Mckagen
> >they're coming down for a short stay and we will be caving again
> >tomorrow.
> >
> HEH HEH HEH HEH HEH - YEAH RIGHT!
What do you know? They're laying out all over the house right now. Today
is Clover Hollow and maybe Pig Hole. We won't miss you!!
> You'd make more money putting in stroker kits. (If you knew how.)
If you really really looked at my site you'd see a page for cranks. But
the real money is in bore jobs because the customer gets mor epoke per
$$. But what would you know?
> Is this instance just a fluke, or do you REALLY have a problem with women?
Just cunts like Ann.
> And hey, what part of volume sales do YOU not understand? What motorcycle
> company, (here in the U.S. - btw) sells more units than its foriegn
> competitors?
None. Honda sold more CB 125s in the forty years they've been in
production than most all the Harleys ever made.
Hoyt Mckagen
> My apologies on wrong location,and misspelling her name,it was hard to
> translate
> and I am not up on Soviet geography,it was purely accident,forgive me
> please,
> it should be the thought that counts,eh?
Exactly, and that proves you a senseles twit.
> 1-lives with out of control dictator
Hmmm, Yeltsin?
> 2-probably has severly slanted info
It did take her a while to lose the socialist idea that if it's not
forbidden it's compulsory. Always wanted me to choose for her. I got past
that by giiving her a few obvious choices, stating that there may be more
choices I didn't think of, and encouraging her to make her own decisions.
I thought that was pretty democratic. You?
> 3-probably has threats made towards her for conficting ideas that may
> differ with dictator's,like,you must like the idea of a broken
> arm,honey
Naw if anyone would get a broken arm, it would be you.
> 4-probably has severly limited feedom and comunication outside of home
Has her own car, friends, jobs, and comes and goes as she pleases. You
seem to think Russians are 'submissive' like some cultures are supposed
to be, and that that's why I married her. Not at all. She was solidly
independant from the beginning and unlike most plastic-tittied American
gals was extremely reality based.
> 5-probably has no freedom to speek freely witout fear of reprisals
> ie:having her coords pubicly displayed on internet for the world to
> see
As in somebody did a google search and found her?
> 6-probably does have it better here as long as she obeys her
> husband/comrade/dictator
Aw, now you're just trying to make me feel bad. We have a really nice
arrangement: she does and goes as she pleases and so do I.
> Have you told her that they have torn down the wall in Berlin?Might be
> a dumb question,but you never know,surely she knows,and I will quit
> callin her surely
That was before we were married, asshole. You tell the worls old news if
it matters so much.
Hoyt Mckagen
> Maybe I've been painted as a flamer due to my hostile feelings toward people
> who treat women (or any other threat) as they do.
Ah shit I thought women wanted equality these days. NO? The only point
I'll follow with is that A. Cunt started it. And I love nothing better
than replying in kind.
> unreasonably verbally assaulted a person just to make yourself look or feel
> superior.
So why aren't you jumping her shit?
Dan Twilley, D.C.
> "Dan Twilley, D.C." <twi...@vol.com> wrote in message
> news:2bde9920.01122...@posting.google.com...
>
> >
> > Hoyt my man.....we are not talkking about superhighways...so I don't
> > git yer point...................we are talking about cave locations
> > being published so that any damn johnque can access it by folks who
> > somehow think its thare right to do that just because they can do
> > that......can ya follow that?.....
>
> No. I'm getting lost and I think it's still the first paragraph.
legally ok for you to do something that others (involved with you)
think is wrong....is it then ok for you to do it just cause you can
while you ignore those others involved with you?.....
> can you stick to that subject
> > pleeze?......Yer second answer also avoid the point of
> > discussion........yeah..I agree the idiot who goes into the cave
> > location he found on the innernet and gits hurt is responsible....but
> > my question is more complex than that...I question the "assoicated"
> > guilt of the man who made it possible for the individual who got hurt
> > to find the damn cave in the first place.......do you or do you not
> > think that if a person tells someone where they can go git hurt iz
> > responsible for that person goin there and gittin hurt or
>
> What about the people who first engendered a sense of adventure and
> exploration into the postulated accident waiting to happen. Is this, in
> fact, not one of the cultural mainstays of your country? Are they guilty
> too? What about the mother who let her son or daughter learn to ride a bike
> with the associated falls, bruises and scrapes? What if she taught her
> offspring to pick themselves up again, dust themselves off and try again -
> is she guilty too? Your rhetoric supports the control of knowledge and thus
> the power that flows from that. I disagree with your sentiments.
> > points of my discussions only fools those incapable of detecting
> > that....it won't work with me...................Yer third question
> > about "what the fug do you think legal means?"......I was simply
> > pointing out that just because its legally acceptable for an
> > individual to indulge himself in behavior that others consider
> > unacceptable does that make it right?...(this point you don't address
> > by the way)...by usin the term legal...I wuz just sayin that it wasn't
> > illegal for the fella to do whatever he was doin.......specifically
> > fer our "situation"?..I guess I was just sayin that since the
> > VASSSSSST majority of cavers would say it was not a good idea to
>
> And the evidence to support that quantitative statement?
> > publish cave locations or directions to them that does it make it
> > right fer some damn devils advocate type who wanted to do it (PUBLISH
> > CAVE LOCATIONS) jusbecause hecould..was it right fer him to go ahead
> > and do it inspite of the objectionns of the others......orrrrrrrrrrrr
>
> So if it's that bad and so many people get hurt as a result of it, why
> hasn't some politician decided to garner a few extra votes from the caving
> community by making it illegal?
> > was it a "better man" thaing for him to do to NOT PUBLISH the
> > locations?...the next point you make is kinda the whole point of my
> > letter in the first place!!........yer last point concerning the fact
> > that skilled cavers git hurt.....gee....I'm real surprised by
> > that.....yessir....realsurprised.......Hoyt....we are talking about
> > novices.....or semirookies.........and there finding out about cave
> > locations via irrresponsible publishing of them by irresponsible
> > folks........I AM TALKING ABOUT THOSE ROOKIES......NOT THE SKILLED
> > CAVERS WHO SCREW UP........THAT DEAR HOYT IS ANOTHER
> > SUBJECT.........PLEEZ stick to the points of discussion......
>
> But you compare your rookies to experienced cavers when you discuss the
> proportion of accidents happening to each group, so he has hardly introduced
> a new subject.
> Nigel
Dan Twilley, D.C.
> Dan Twilley, D.C. wrote:
> > your "points"...in the first point you raise about whether the locals
> > finding out about a cave actually results in the cave being trashed or
> > not....Hoyt....thats a laughable thaing.....if the locals find out the
> > cave gits traished boy
>
> It looks as if you didn't understand that I agree. But
> locals don't find out about caves thru location info, they
> hear about it on the local gossip line. Recently a group of
> builders was working on a house across road from cave. They
> routinely went in on their breaks, tried to remove a big stal. They
> didn't need me to tell them where the cave was, they could see the
> entrance.
> Hoyt......the reason they don't find out via the published word most
often is because it:..number one is not generally available for them
because a lot of currently active cavers are opposed to posting
publically the locations of caves.....and number two....thats how most
rookies start...hey..I just thoughtasumthing...if they (the rookies)
survived the first trip.......if they made it thru the first
one.....is thare a chance that they might try to find out about more
cave locations than the first one they found?......hmmmmmmmmm
> > not........Hoyt.....sum of us are concerned about the rookie who got
> > killed..
>
> Then you should put your efforts into things like highway safety, were
> the result is so much more unequivocol. IOW, first prove that having
> locations increases idiot casualtiers, not just assume it dopes.
> lemmesee now....I didn't major in math but lets say .5% of rookie
cavers (defined as less than 15 trips) has an accident.....lets now
increase the numbers of rookie cavers.....by say something like
noncavers encountering the posted locations of caves....lets say we
increase the number of trips..hmmmmmm.......seems to me like it would
simply have to cause more injuries.....just seems that way by having
the logical mind I do....dunnothatineed statistics....
>
> > the boy to never go cavin
> > again.........howboutyewgivinupcavinHoyt?.
>
> Nope, I'm content with the small amount of damage I do just
> walking thru. If he's not content with that, he needs to give it up.
>I wuz thinking a different kind of cave conservation by yer not being
involved with the community.....I wuz thinkin of the damage done by
rookies you have introducted to caving without even being aware that
you did....heheheheh.....and by yer not bein around to do
that......heheheheheh
> > the question.....who would result in more caves being not f+++++ up by
> > thair not caving any longer....the guy who sees absolutely nothing
> > wrong with publishing cave locations fer public consumption or the
> > fella who is choosey about who he shows a cave to?
>
> Not caving by either individual is going absolutely prevent damage of any
> sort. Any caving by any individual is going to result in some. But the
> idea that caves will instantly become highways solely because locations
> are known, is silly shit.
> not superhighways Hoyt.....just increased traffic.....increased traffic.........increased traffic...
> Dan: suppose I publish some locations in your area and you monitor the
> caves. Tell us all what you found, OK?
> Hoyt....you go right ahead and do whatever it is you want to do........before you do would you do me a favor......let the folks on TAGnet know what it is you intend to do......wuudyadothatferme?............
Dan Twilley, D.C.
> Dan Twilley, D.C. wrote:
> > should be a local thang..........the cavers who cave in the area in
> > question...should establish what sumbody cavin in their area should be
> > able to do to safly go thru thair caves.
>
> less.
>
> beauracratttttssssraaattttssssrrrrrraaattttttsssss........yeeeeeeeeehawwwwwww
>
> Yo need to get your meds adjusted. I personally wouldn't cave with you
> because you appear irrational.
>
> Regards,
>
> Hoyt McKagen
Hoyt.......you still avoid the issues..........as far as my
meds..well Hoyt....as a Chiropractor I don't believe in using meds
except in emergencies or if there is no alternative treatment
available.....as for my being irrational....well.....I certainly will
not defend myself there.....to you I am irrational.....or rather I
appear irrational to the truely confused.....
Tony Brocklebank
Your posts are getting hard to decipher, but anyway....
Dan Twilley, D.C. <twi...@vol.com> wrote in message
news:2bde9920.01122...@posting.google.com...
> > > fer our "situation"?..I guess I was just sayin that since the
> > > VASSSSSST majority of cavers would say it was not a good idea to
> >
> > And the evidence to support that quantitative statement?
> > ASK ANY TEN CAVERS YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THEY THINK IT IS SAFE FOR CAVE
LOCATIONS TO BE PUBLICALLY POSTED......go ahead Nigel..make my day.......
> > > publish cave locations or directions to them that does it make it
> > > right fer some damn devils advocate type who wanted to do it (PUBLISH
> > > CAVE LOCATIONS) jusbecause hecould..was it right fer him to go ahead
> > > and do it inspite of the objectionns of the others......orrrrrrrrrrrr
The point of this discussion is that it is very easy to find ten cavers, or
more, that don't agree with you. Many of us both sides of the Atlantic
think that your approach increases the risk to rookies, and by your own
admission your accident statistics reflect this, you say more rookies get
hurt in the States.
> > Nigel.....you like Hoyt seem to be incapable of addressing the real
issue....Hoyt doesn't seem to think that giving inexperienced cavers the
locations of caves would lead to accidents happening that perhaps would be
prevented by forcing people wanting to get into caving to find groups of
experienced cavers within their area in order for them to find out about
caving.......what do you think?
I agree with Hoyt, as I think does Nigel (that doesn't mean I like him or
his idiotic personal attacks on people with which he does his own causes no
good at all). Ignorance is the cause of the very accidents you are trying
to avoid. You want to force people who want to start caving to join up with
experienced cavers before going underground. This is OK in principle, you
could even dress it up as common sense - but it isn't practical. Not every
would be caver is going to bow to your wishes and you need to cater for the
many that don't, and who want to set out on their own. I think that in the
UK we do a better job of this, and as a result we do not get lots of
accidents to novices.
Publishing cave locations is only part of that, but it gives an opportunity
to get across a lot more detail at the same time.
Tony
Nigel Robertson
> > No. I'm getting lost and I think it's still the first paragraph.
> >ok.....lets see if I can make it clearer for you.......because it is
> legally ok for you to do something that others (involved with you)
> think is wrong....is it then ok for you to do it just cause you can
> while you ignore those others involved with you?.....
That probably depends on your values, who else is 'involved' and the
circumstances of the situation among others.
> > can you stick to that subject
> > > pleeze?......Yer second answer also avoid the point of
> > > discussion........yeah..I agree the idiot who goes into the cave
> > > location he found on the innernet and gits hurt is responsible....but
> > > my question is more complex than that...I question the "assoicated"
> > > guilt of the man who made it possible for the individual who got hurt
> > > to find the damn cave in the first place.......do you or do you not
> > > think that if a person tells someone where they can go git hurt iz
> > > responsible for that person goin there and gittin hurt or
> >
> > What about the people who first engendered a sense of adventure and
> > exploration into the postulated accident waiting to happen. Is this, in
> > fact, not one of the cultural mainstays of your country? Are they
guilty
> > too? What about the mother who let her son or daughter learn to ride a
bike
> > with the associated falls, bruises and scrapes? What if she taught her
> > offspring to pick themselves up again, dust themselves off and try
again -
> > is she guilty too? Your rhetoric supports the control of knowledge and
thus
> > the power that flows from that. I disagree with your sentiments.
> .....once again......we are talking about caving, not mothers and
others........
But I'm using your principles to argue against you. As you said, it is a
complex question and therefore not one in which you can blandly dismiss
other points in the argument.
>I am advocating the control of a tiny tiny piece of knowledge....yes that
is true.....methinks it a bit paranoid of you to >consider this as
applicable to all knowledge..........
But this secrecy over locations extends further than just that one piece of
information.
> methinks you ignore the issue of safty and conservation......>
Not in the slightest. For instance, "There's a hole in the ground, lets
explore it. It hasn't rained for 3 days and it's bright and sunny now so we
should be safe." The guidebook, however, contains a warning that as the
cave is mainly fed by percolation water, it can flood rapidly and completely
3-5 days after the last rainfall. Is it less or more safe to have such
information available?
> > > not?..........Hoyt...answer my questions fella........avoidin the
> > > points of my discussions only fools those incapable of detecting
> > > that....it won't work with me...................Yer third question
> > > about "what the fug do you think legal means?"......I was simply
> > > pointing out that just because its legally acceptable for an
> > > individual to indulge himself in behavior that others consider
> > > unacceptable does that make it right?...(this point you don't address
> > > by the way)...by usin the term legal...I wuz just sayin that it wasn't
> > > illegal for the fella to do whatever he was doin.......specifically
> > > fer our "situation"?..I guess I was just sayin that since the
> > > VASSSSSST majority of cavers would say it was not a good idea to
> >
> > And the evidence to support that quantitative statement?
> > ASK ANY TEN CAVERS YOU DO NOT KNOW IF THEY THINK IT IS SAFE FOR CAVE
LOCATIONS TO BE PUBLICALLY POSTED......go ahead Nigel..make my day.......
Actually I was asking for your evidence, Dan, as it was you who made the
original statement!
Asking the question in the UK, it is clear that most people would just look
puzzled, as they sit there poring over their guidebooks to decide which trip
to do today. I know that I would get a different answer in the States but I
think not with as much unanimity as you expect.
I tend to agree with Hoyt.
You can't say that more accidents happen to rookies if you aren't comparing
them to some other group i.e. experienced cavers.
Also, as I noted higher in this post, the secrecy issue in the States
extends to more than just cave locations.
Nigel
Tony Brocklebank
I think we've been through this before, but anyway. Most of your caves
haven't only just been discovered, and not all those being found are going
to be worthy of the kind of preservation you talk about. I think we both
accept there can be exceptions to the rule, and I don't think we're far
apart (from memory) on what the rule should be - i.e. readily available info
on known caves including locations, descriptions, access, etc.
Again, inevitably, some people will ignore access arrangements. From the
starting point you guys have I suspect this is probably the norm.
So far as the differences between Britain and the US are concerned, perhaps
you should be comparing the US and Europe, which is a bit closer in size.
Many new caves, including some in the UK, are found each year, and info on
the majority is in the public domain. Where there is good reason details
are kept quiet.
Tony
Hopper <Pa...@tcia.net> wrote in message
news:07rm2uoh932pe2nng...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 12:01:26 -0000, "Tony Brocklebank"
> <to...@laptopbits.co.uk> informed me of this:
>
> :I agree with Hoyt, as I think does Nigel (that doesn't mean I like
> him or
> :his idiotic personal attacks on people with which he does his own
> causes no
> :good at all). Ignorance is the cause of the very accidents you are
> trying
> :to avoid. You want to force people who want to start caving to join
> up with
> :experienced cavers before going underground. This is OK in
> principle, you
> :could even dress it up as common sense - but it isn't practical. Not
> every
> :would be caver is going to bow to your wishes and you need to cater
> for the
> :many that don't, and who want to set out on their own. I think that
> in the
> :UK we do a better job of this, and as a result we do not get lots of
> :accidents to novices.
> :
> :Publishing cave locations is only part of that, but it gives an
> opportunity
> :to get across a lot more detail at the same time.
> :
> :Tony
> :
> Hi Tony
> I agree that there is a way to handle publishing cave locations so
> that there are caves available to all cavers to go enjoy. The problems
> I have encountered with giving out cave locations, even to other local
> cavers is that they do not bother to contact the landowner themselves
> or if the landowner gives them permission, they then think that they
> have the right to give permission to other cavers when in fact the
> landowner only gave the first caver permission. I've had this happen
> again and again. Until cavers in every location are willing to set up
> an organization that makes agreements with landowners for access and
> then publishes the access agreements, you will end up having the cave
> closed by the landowners. I would love to see this happen, but it will
> not.
>
> The second stipulation I would have to make is that there are caves
> that should have very limited access. We have new caves found around
> here every month or so. Many of these caves are pristine and contain a
> record of paleontology that is destroyed when very many cavers move
> through the cave. When a cave is found, many times the existence and
> location is kept secret to preserve the things that can be learned
> from it. You have caves like this over there, or at least in France.
> If we did open up many of the caves around here for access, it would
> take the pressure off of the newer finds that we are trying to keep in
> as good a shape as possible. Right now, in my state, laws have been
> passed that forbid scientists from doing digs in caves to find
> archeological or paleological information. The logic of this is that
> we will have better techniques and equipment in the future, and should
> leave the remaining sites alone so that these future scientists will
> be able to get the most out of them. Whether that is right or wrong,
> is immaterial. It is a law, and we are very unlikely to get it
> changed.
>
> I also think that the situation is different over there. How many new
> caves have been discovered in the past five years there? We have had
> hundreds and there are hundreds more. I don't know how many caves are
> available to you there as compared to here. It would be interesting to
> find out what the caver to cave ratio is in each place. No matter, we
> do indeed have cave damage here, mostly deliberate and by local
> juveniles. We also have caves with endangered bat populations in them.
> Disturbing a bat population in the winter can wipe it out completely.
> Many of these caves have been gated. Even with the gates, people find
> a way around them. I know of one cave that has a gate in place, but
> someone has dug underneath a large rock allowing it to fall out of
> place which gave enough opening for people to enter. This cave is in
> view of thousands of people that go by it on a main road each day, yet
> the people were willing arrest to get by the gate. To the heathens
> around here, a gate means treasure must be locked behind. I doesn't
> take but a few of these to cause real damage, but these are not cavers
> in the sense of being educated on caves and what is in them. They are
> independent cavers that just want an adventure. If we could provide
> them with that in caves that do not have endangered bats or serious
> drops, it would be better. Some people call this the sacrificial cave
> notion and not many NSS cavers are willing to sacrifice any cave.
>
> I suspect that all of your caves are already sacrificial caves.
> Perhaps the major damage is already done over there. I don't know this
> to be true. Maybe I will come find out.
>
> Paul M
>
>
Dr.Chomplin
> ... and I've come to think that under the current
> circumstances, these may be the best ways for now. Someday maybe some
> things will have to change. Maybe.
Things _will_ change. The uneasiness that I have over the whole issue is
that it's a short step from secret coordinates, excessive gating and
restricted trustee caving to an effective exclusion of all but the PhD
Karst scientist to caves in general on the basis that the rest of us
will only " irreparably damage this resource for future generations".
I think I'm right in saying that you made a comment earlier about a
no-excavating law in your area designed to preserve the cave conditions
for future "better equipped" scientists? This would seem to be a good
example of the above policy in action i.e. a blanket ruling which
doesn't just stop disturbance of "important" sites but also serves to
restrict caver expansion of existing systems in non-sensitive areas.
It's all very well talking about restricting access (or knowledge of
coords) in order to protect unsuspecting idiots from themselves but in
truth it really just acts as a smokescreen for those people who would
rather we never existed in the first place i.e. the respective
scientists, the Park service, the Rescue services etc etc.
I have a feeling that we are going to be trying so hard to show our
willingness to preserve these caves that, whilst we're looking the other
way (at reckless beginners), _our_ right to access will be stripped away
using our own rhetoric.
There seem to be an awful lot of people acting as though the present
state of play is a holding position and that things will only get better
with time. Well indeed they will but not, I'm afraid, for your average
caver.
John
Jo Schaper
Hopper wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:44:07 -0800, "Dr.Chomplin" <camp...@uci.edu>
> informed me of this:
>
> :I think I'm right in saying that you made a comment earlier about a
> :no-excavating law in your area designed to preserve the cave
> conditions
> :for future "better equipped" scientists? This would seem to be a good
> :example of the above policy in action i.e. a blanket ruling which
> :doesn't just stop disturbance of "important" sites but also serves to
> :restrict caver expansion of existing systems in non-sensitive areas.
>
> And I have never seen a cave closed because of science.
Consider yourself lucky, Paul. I know of several, and a couple of which
are not for very good reasons, IMO. Restricting access to only paid
employees is as good as closed, and it happens all the time.
I do find a bias in that cave closures for living things take
precedence over cave closures for geological/hydrological reasons. Hey,
rocks have rights, too, and broken is as good as extirpated.
Jo
Tony Brocklebank
> The "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints" policy
> is really an idea that the science oriented NSS members started. The
I think a few people have claimed the original rights on that one, but I'm
not sure the NSS rank among them :-)
For the rest a new thread seems a good idea.
Nathan Beckroge
some crap about a dildo? I read another post about you, talking about how
you had problems. I'm starting to think it's true. You need help dude. I
have nothing else to say to a person like you.
"Hoyt Mckagen" <Nobat...@i-plSPAMus.net> wrote in message
> AmMurphree wrote:
> >
> > I don't understand why, but a friend of mine claims that for "high load"
> > applications (like the high-beam on his Petzl Duo) lithium only gives
> > marginally (10%?) better lifetime. For "low current" (such as LED
arrays
> > perhaps?) lithium will give as much as 10 times as much life service as
> > alkaline. Dunno for sure. What do you think?
>
> I think you're really interested in the operating life of your
> battery-powered dildo. Certainly that would be the only action a loser
> like you would get, outside of your relatives. Personally, I wouldn't
> screw you with your father's dick though he probably did.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Hoyt McKagen
kareful kaver
> AmMurphee was talking about battery/light combinations, and you respond with
> some crap about a dildo? I read another post about you, talking about how
> you had problems. I'm starting to think it's true. You need help dude. I
> have nothing else to say to a person like you.
Hi Nathan,like you I have a problem with this post by Hoyt and
responded so.
Then it was pointed out to me by a few that he has something to add to
the caving group here.I since feel that some of my comments were
fueled by anger
but justified by my own standards,I would advise caution on comments
as the
alt.caving police who monitor any attempt to address these comments of
Hoyts
with disgust and shame him into an apology for atleast this type of
comments
will be met with a call for understanding by you.Forget the the right
and wrong of it and be ready to lower your standards to converse with
some members of this group.Not all but some condone and justify
comments like this by Hoyt using freedom of speech and the sometime
usefull info givin as reasons to tolerate
this type of comments.I find the argument feeble,but my opinion to
date hasnt
found speed.Shame on the ones that find fault with setting an
acceptable level of dialog.Cave around these fools,Nathan,dont follow
them as their passage is very muddy and leads nowhere!
Kareful Kaver
Hoyt Mckagen
> AmMurphee was talking about battery/light combinations, and you respond with
> some crap about a dildo? I read another post about you, talking about how
> you had problems. I'm starting to think it's true. You need help dude.
You seem to have missed the opening shot AM fired at me. I didn't
start that firefight, but always reply in kind. I personally thank you
for your intention to not talk to me again; if true it will make my day.
Regards,
Hoyt McKagen
Belfab CNC - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html
Best MC Repair - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html
Camping/Caving - http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
A fish rots from the head down
Nigel Robertson
1 As Hoyt has already pointed out, he was initially subjected to a
vitriolic attack by AmMurphree and he has responded to them in kind. Fair
dos in my book.
2 Don't mislead casual readers of this group that there is any sort of
group of respondents to this group that act or even believe themselves to be
'policing' the group. It pains me when <any> participant of this group
allows conversations to degenerate to the level of abuse or nonsense. I am,
however, quite able to make a choice over what I read, as I am sure most
readers out there are able to. This means that we can all act as
independent policewo/men by making our own choices and don't have to rely on
what somebody else might decide is suitable for us to read.
Nigel
"kareful kaver" <mott...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5377c68c.02010...@posting.google.com...
Nathan Beckroge
flames for his own personal satisfaction. And furthermore, he's hiding
behind a computer. Were someone to make the remarks to me as did Hoyt to
AmMurphee, he would have unknowingly instigated a fight; one that I would
have been glad to finish for him. Hoyt is knowledgeable about caving, and in
between flames, actually has some good to report. Best I can tell he's just
an anal retentive asshole. People like him are best left alone to sulk in
their own misery. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have
friends...and they actually like me! I don't see how anyone could be friends
with such an ass..