Biting Kitten
Delmont Neroni
want to bite her all the time. He is about 8 weeks old, a stray, no
siblings, and the biting behavior is just play, but I don't think she knows
how to deal with it. We advised her not to let him bite her, but she says
if she stands up, he then tries to wrestle with and bite her feet. He seems
to ignore the usual kitten toys in favor of playing with and biting her.
Anybody have any helpful hints on how to deal with this behavior?
-----------------------------------------------------
Delmont P. Neroni
Alternative Systems
84 Fosdyke Street
Providence, RI 02906
Phone:(401) 454-0622
Fax: (401) 454-0075
d...@altsystem.com
www.altsystem.com
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>We are trying to help a friend deal with a cute male kitten who seems to
>want to bite her all the time. He is about 8 weeks old, a stray, no
>siblings, and the biting behavior is just play, but I don't think she knows
>how to deal with it. We advised her not to let him bite her, but she says
>if she stands up, he then tries to wrestle with and bite her feet. He seems
>to ignore the usual kitten toys in favor of playing with and biting her.
>
>Anybody have any helpful hints on how to deal with this behavior?
>
When it bites just freeze. after a few days it will get the idea that
you do not consider it a game.
--
Bob.
Looking forward to the start of the new millennium on January 1st
2001.
A Pair Of Duces
Watch a 'Wonder' graphic!
Lotta Stenfelt
I had this problem with my Felix. Tried the watergun, no help - he just got
annoyed. The only thing was to say NO and pic him up and put him in another
place and just walk away. Nothing more. She will have to do this many times.
So patience and love is the way. Felix is one of the nicest cats today. You
should just see him taking care of little Alexia. I get amazed everyday.
And the wrestling thing - well, she'll have to live with that. I had a cats
who would do that all the time, just for fun, they never bite hard. They
threw themself on my ancles and then just ran away - waiting for my reaction
(the expected me to run after and pet them)! :) But as long as the kitten is
biting too hard, she'll have to do like I wrote before.
This is my experience and I hope it will be of any help for your friend.
Lotta
Delmont Neroni skrev i meddelandet ...
>We are trying to help a friend deal with a cute male kitten who seems to
>want to bite her all the time. He is about 8 weeks old, a stray, no
>siblings, and the biting behavior is just play, but I don't think she knows
>how to deal with it. We advised her not to let him bite her, but she says
>if she stands up, he then tries to wrestle with and bite her feet. He
seems
>to ignore the usual kitten toys in favor of playing with and biting her.
>
>Anybody have any helpful hints on how to deal with this behavior?
>
tuhraycee
(in the rough, biting way) if he'll grow up to bite and scratch all
the time. It makes sense that he would, not knowing the difference and
all, I just need someone else's experiences just in case!
thanks,
tracy
On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:22:37 GMT, "Delmont Neroni" <alt...@home.com>
wrote:
>We are trying to help a friend deal with a cute male kitten who seems to
Gee
I have had to train 4 cats not to do it, and it took about a week each.2
years on and I have extremely well behaved cats who would NEVER dream of
biting me nor anyone else.
EVERY time he bites, your friend should scream in pain as if somebody was
cutting her throat. Seriously. Cats have VERY sensitive ears and hate
high-pitched sounds. If a cat bites- you scream- cat pulls back saddened by
the horrible noise, and after about a week of repeating the process it will
get the message:everytime it bites a human, the horrible noise will appear,
so better not bite.
Remember that she needs to be persistent and it she has to do it EVERY time
cat bites, no meter how painless it really is.When the kitten grows into a
cat, it will continue biting as a habit, and as it hasn't been thought the
rules, and really hurt someone.You don't want that.
Let us know how it goes.
Gee,Tiara,Shadow and Tigger
(with QT in our hearts)
Delmont Neroni <alt...@home.com> wrote in message
news:N6Na5.15623$7W2.1...@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com...
ibidem
> EVERY time he bites, your friend should scream in pain as if somebody was
> cutting her throat. Seriously. Cats have VERY sensitive ears and hate
> high-pitched sounds. If a cat bites- you scream- cat pulls back saddened by
> the horrible noise, and after about a week of repeating the process it will
> get the message:everytime it bites a human, the horrible noise will appear,
> so better not bite.
Lotta and Gee's ideas are the best; either or both together, followed
consistently, will work. The only thing that I might add is that
appropriate toys- the bird on a pole is excellent- will give the critter
an alternative for all that kitten aggression.
--
Paul
*the one formerly known as konengro*
Greg
her hands. The kitten will not like the taste/smell of that and might
hesitate before trying it again. I've read that is a good way to stop them
from chewing on wires. So it may work for hands too. =)
SRiddles
Whoa. Please don't do that, it's painful to the kitten. How would *you* like
to chew on a cayenne pepper??? The spray bottle works. Just like with children,
consistency is the key. We had an elderly couple adopt a kitten who was just
about to bring it back, because the lady's skin was so brittle and fragile, and
they couldn't get the kitten to stop biting. We advised this method, and
thankfully, the last we heard, no more biting.
Sherry
Gerry
"SRiddles" <srid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000713221334...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
I've never even had to go as far as spraying water. I just never play
directly with them using my hands. Toys only. I only rub and pet them by
hand, watching their obvious mood of course. If they turn around and
"bite", I take my hand away. End of loving attention time. Most kittens
I've had learn this in a week or two. Little kittens are exhibiting all the
wild nature of their heritage - learning to hunt. They have to be satisfied
in this regard. The best way is to have two kittens in my opinion. It's a
little sadistic perhaps, but then you get to watch them stalk and bite each
other.
Gerry
Shelley Driscoll
this is =normal kitten behavior=. This is how the kitten played with his
mother and littermates. He just needs to be taught that people don't like his
"Cat Games"! In addition to teaching him not to bite and attack, have her
teach him some "Good Games".
Shelley
In article <N6Na5.15623$7W2.1...@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com>, "Delmont Neroni"
Greg
http://www.petsmart.com/
Just quoting what I thought was a reliable source. =) I just beat my cat
with a dead fish.. But I think he's starting to enjoy that... :P
"SRiddles" <srid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000713221334...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> >Tell your friend to possibly try rubbing jalapeno juice or cyan pepper on
> >her hands. The kitten will not like the taste/smell of that and might
> >hesitate before trying it again. I've read that is a good way to stop
them
> >from chewing on wires. So it may work for hands too. =)
> >
> >"Delmont Neroni" <alt...@home.com> wrote in message
> >news:N6Na5.15623$7W2.1...@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com...
> >> We are trying to help a friend deal with a cute male kitten who seems
to
> >> want to bite her all the time. He is about 8 weeks old, a stray, no
> >> siblings, and the biting behavior is just play, but I don't think she
> >knows
> >> how to deal with it. We advised her not to let him bite her, but she
says
> >> if she stands up, he then tries to wrestle with and bite her feet. He
> >seems
> >> to ignore the usual kitten toys in favor of playing with and biting
her.
> >>
> >> Anybody have any helpful hints on how to deal with this behavior?
> >>
> >> -----------------------------------------------------
> >> Delmont P. Neroni
> >> Alternative Systems
> >> 84 Fosdyke Street
> >> Providence, RI 02906
> >> Phone:(401) 454-0622
> >> Fax: (401) 454-0075
> >> d...@altsystem.com
> >> www.altsystem.com
>
> Whoa. Please don't do that, it's painful to the kitten. How would *you*
like
> to chew on a cayenne pepper??? The spray bottle works. Just like with
children,
> consistency is the key. We had an elderly couple adopt a kitten who was
just
> about to bring it back, because the lady's skin was so brittle and
fragile, and
> they couldn't get the kitten to stop biting. We advised this method, and
> thankfully, the last we heard, no more biting.
> Sherry
Reader
> We are trying to help a friend deal with a cute male kitten
> who seems to want to bite her all the time.
I agree with other replies that consistency is the key. You want
a response that you can (and do) give *every single time*, and
which the kitten will *not* like, so that he associates the act
of biting with the unpleasant result and therefore stops.
Spraying works, screaming works (though it's hell on the
neighbors, so you may wish to avoid that). Blowing hard in
his face works, especially if you make a big-angry-cat-hiss,
and that doesn't require any equipment or wake the neighbors.
Me, I let kittens wrestle my hand, but when they bite my
fingertip (which is always the closest thing to their mouths)
it goes directly toward the back of their throats so that they
immediately spit it out. It only takes a few times before they
stop biting, because they associate it with the gag reflex.
Any paw that hits my skin with claws out is immediately held
in place by a fingertip (and, if the kitten's bigger, another
pair of fingers pinching his "wrist"), and again a big-cat-hiss
with staring close up into the kitten's face. The disapproval
is in cat-speak, and the object of disapproval is being held.
Every kitten I've ever had knew to apologetically sheathe claws,
and I swear they would have said "I'm sowwy" if they could talk.
Other things "work", but have side-effects that you don't want.
Putting unpleasant substances on your hand (like pepper sauce)
sure makes your hand undesirable, but after the kitten has
already *stopped* biting you, the pepper sauce is still biting
him. You want any unpleasant effect to stop when he stops, not
linger on. Likewise, any spray should contain only water.
Swatting on the nose "works" - but may alienate the kitten too:
you *don't* want him to associate pain with a human hand
reaching for him, or he'll be afraid when you try to pet him.
(Swatting the rump does not seem to have the same bad effect,
but generally I save that to break up catfights.)
Remember, for biting, breakage, floor-messing, or anything else,
that cats have VERY short memories. Punish the cat now for what
he's doing *now*. Wait five minutes, and he'll have no idea why
you're being so mean to him - the connection between bad deed &
unpleasant result will not be made, and he will not learn by it.
For the same reason, punishment should be *over* quickly.
Prolonging it beyond a second or two sends the wrong message:
he's already stopped and you're still being mean, so it must
NOT have been what he was doing that caused the meanness.
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Reader
>> Me, I let kittens wrestle my hand, but when they bite my
>> fingertip (which is always the closest thing to their mouths)
>> it goes directly toward the back of their throats so that
>> they immediately spit it out. It only takes a few times
>> before they stop biting, because they associate it with the
>> gag reflex.
>
No, certainly not. It's still in the mouth when the kitten
decides he really doesn't want it any more, and "spits it out"
(actually opens his jaw and pushes with the tongue, pulling
his head away). You've mistaken "toward the back of the throat"
(a direction of movement within the mouth) for "down the throat"
(much further on, and an impossibly small passage for an adult
human finger, at least mine).
> I think this is an extremely cruel method.
Not at all. I'm certainly not forcing my finger anywhere, just
making it unappetizing so that the kitten stops thinking it's
something worth biting. As I said, it may take a few times to
work - because the kitten immediately resumes wrestling, that's
how little it affects him. All it does is discourage biting.
Do you consider allowing a cat to grow up biting, until it bites
a child & is taken away by animal authorities, to be LESS cruel?
> Also, cats should *never* be physically hit.
Did you *read* the following?
"Other things 'work', but have side-effects that you don't want.
.. Swatting on the nose 'works' - but may alienate the kitten
too: you *don't* want him to associate pain with a human hand
reaching for him, or he'll be afraid when you try to pet him."
As for "swatting the rump": after your "down the throat" reading
of my other comment, I fear that you think "swatting" means
"hitting full force with a fist". It doesn't. That could kill or
seriously injure a cat. Cats bat *each other* with their paws,
and that's about as hard as "swatting" should be - because you
are "mama cat" to your cats, and this is cat-speak for "STOP
THAT RIGHT NOW!". Cats understand it, and you must be understood.
But all it takes is the fingertips on the palm-side of an open
hand. You might hit your piano keys harder during a crescendo.
The batting *motion* communicates more than the actual "swat",
and the cat's rump is in no danger of being injured by it.
As I said, I reserve this for breaking up cat-fights, when the
cats are far more likely to hurt each other than I am to hurt
any of them. It would be more "cruel" to NOT break it up.
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SRiddles
>fingertip (which is always the closest thing to their mouths)
>it goes directly toward the back of their throats so that they
>immediately spit it out. It only takes a few times before they
>stop biting, because they associate it with the gag reflex.
>Me, I let kittens wrestle my hand, but when they bite my
>fingertip (which is always the closest thing to their mouths)
>it goes directly toward the back of their throats so that they
>immediately spit it out. It only takes a few times before they
>stop biting, because they associate it with the gag reflex.
You stick your finger down your kitten's throat. I think this is an extremely
cruel method. Also, cats should *never* be physically hit.
Sherry
ibidem
> Me, I let kittens wrestle my hand, but when they bite my
> fingertip (which is always the closest thing to their mouths)
> it goes directly toward the back of their throats so that they
> immediately spit it out. It only takes a few times before they
> stop biting, because they associate it with the gag reflex.
You want to stick your finger down the throat of a playful kitten? You
actually *gag* a kitten with your finger, for punishment? What a mean,
nasty thing to do.
Aside from what it says about your character, simply stopping the play
is far more effective. Why would you recommend such an ugly thing? How
could you do such a repugnant thing to a critter who is, in fact, only
playing?
First of all, the principle of aversive conditioning involves the
*least* stimulus to achieve behavior change. Gagging a cat with your
finger is most certainly not a least-stimulus. Stopping the play and
leaving the critter is. It is sufficient. It works. It's not cruel.
Secondly, cats don't recognize authority, and they don't respond to
punishment as you'd expect. This isn't some "noble, independent beast
romanticism;" social reality for a cat is territory-based, and not
pack-based, as it is for dogs and humans. If you punish a dog, the dog
will seek to alter it behavior to please you. We understand that
intuitively, since we, too, are pack animals. If you punish a cat, the
cat *doesn't understand* what you are doing. At best, the cat knows that
you're mean. At worst, in this situation, the cat understands that you
like to play really, really rough and responds in kind, making the cat
as mean as you.
Lastly, cats do learn readily and elaborately. It takes nothing more
than understanding what makes them go. What makes them go, far more than
"punishment" or aversive conditioning, is positive reinforcement.
Providing a cat with a bird-dancer or similar toy is a whole world
different than sticking your finger down its throat to gag it.
Gagging a cat. It's a mean, stupid, ignorant thing to do. What on earth
are you thinking? Why are you so eager to abuse your cat?
Reader
> Reader wrote:
>> Me, I let kittens wrestle my hand, but when they bite my
>> fingertip (which is always the closest thing to their mouths)
>> it goes directly toward the back of their throats so that
>> they immediately spit it out. It only takes a few times
>> before they stop biting, because they associate it with the
>> gag reflex.
Notice that, an hour and twenty minutes *before* Paul/ibidem
replied, I had had to answer Sherry Riddles's distortion ("You
stick your finger down your kitten's throat") with a very clear
correction ("No, certainly not. It's still in the mouth when the
kitten decides he really doesn't want it any more, and 'spits it
out' (actually opens his jaw and pushes with the tongue, pulling
his head away). You've mistaken 'toward the back of the throat'
(a direction of movement within the mouth) for 'down the throat'
(much further on, and an impossibly small passage for an adult
human finger, at least mine)"). Neverthless, Paul repeats the
very same distortion that had just been clearly contradicted:
> You want to stick your finger down the throat of a playful
> kitten?
At this point, I lose patience. Criticize me for what I do and
what I say - that's fair. Make up things I never did or said,
and criticize me for *those* - that's malicious lying.
Others may wonder who's telling the truth - well, they can check
the preceding messages to see just exactly what *was* said.
> You actually *gag* a kitten with your finger, for punishment?
> What a mean, nasty thing to do.
To "gag" someone is to tie a cloth around their mouth or stuff
it inside their mouths, preventing them from making noise, and
possibly even impairing their breathing. It would certainly be
a "mean, nasty thing to do" - but since I did no such thing, it
has no bearing here. You are playing word games in order to
create false accusations.
> Aside from what it says about your character, simply stopping
> the play is far more effective.
Which is why we see questions about how to teach kittens and
older cats not to bite? Their humans tend to stop playing when
bitten, it's the normal human reaction, but the cat still has
not made the connection. You end up with angry humans shouting
and confused cats wondering what's wrong.
Despite your and Sherry's attempt to portray my suggestion as
mean, nasty, or harmful to kittens - none of these kittens were
hurt, harmed, or distressed. They continued playing as usual,
but finally stopped biting humanflesh because it's "disgusting".
> Why would you recommend such an ugly thing?
What I find ugly - besides your making malicious false
accusations against other catlovers - is the bad habit
of *not* teaching cats proper behavior early on, so that
they have angry humans shouting at them the rest of their
lives, or taking them to the pound after they bite a child.
I consider this a form of neglect, and it is inexcusable.
Cats may not be Einsteins, but in their own way they are NOT
stupid, they are perfectly capable of learning what is and is
not proper behavior - IF their humans simply understand how
cat psychology works, and don't try to treat them like small
human beings (primates instead of felines). It requires tying
behavior to consequences in the quickest and most direct way,
good to good and bad to bad, which does NOT mean inflicting pain
or injury - a spray of water or a finger in the mouth or blowing
in the face (and then hissing HAHHHHHH!) does NOT hurt or harm,
it's merely UNPLEASANT for a moment, which is all it takes.
To say that being unpleasant is harmful or injurious is simply
false. To continue this misrepresentation after it has been
clearly corrected constitutes deliberate distortion and lying.
> How could you do such a repugnant thing to a critter who is,
> in fact, only playing?
"How could you be so *cruel* as to take away little Johnny's
hammer, when he was *only* hitting little Susie over the head?"
says the sort of parent who will later be amazed that their
children grew up to be violent criminals.
Repugnant? The point is that the kitten will find *biting*
repugnant, and therefore not do it. Cats and kittens complain
when they're hurt, you can hear it and see it. None of these
kittens were hurt. They spat out the fingertip and went on
playing, but they just decided to stop biting flesh. They go on
to be happy healthy cats (my oldest turns 21 in August) who are
safe around children and infants, because they do *not* bite.
My youngest just turned two. When I went to get him from the
Humane Society, I saw so many cats waiting for homes that it
broke my heart that I could not take them all. Some were just
from homes that had too many already, some were strays,... but
some were there because of behavior - "he bites, and we have
small children" - which infuriates me, because the cats could
have been taught, and the humans simply NEVER BOTHERED TO DO IT.
It would have been "cruel", no doubt.
So instead they got put in a cage, no home, no love, no future.
How kind. How considerate. How gentle. Bloody bungling idiots.
> First of all, the principle of aversive conditioning involves
> the *least* stimulus to achieve behavior change.
And that it should be clearly associated with the behavior.
This is why I hold a paw in place if it claws, and release
it when the claws are sheathed - the cat knows that the paw
is the location of the problem. Likewise, a stimulus to show
that biting is the problem should be at the mouth - not a
spray or swat at the far end of the cat. Letting the kitten
spit it out because of a disgust-reaction associates biting
the finger with disgust. The kitten isn't *afraid* to bite it
(due to being "punished" for it), he doesn't *want* to bite
it (because "it must taste really bad" in his experience).
Disgust, *not* pain, is the association created here.
And really, it's less intrusive than "pilling" a cat - or do
you neglect your cats' medication, too, in order to be "nice"?
> Gagging a cat with your finger is most certainly not a least-
> stimulus. Stopping the play and leaving the critter is. It is
> sufficient. It works. It's not cruel.
And all those families who put their cats in the pound because
the cats kept biting - do you think they kept playing with those
cats while the cats had their teeth sunk into human flesh?
I see that you're as ignorant about humans as about cats.
> Secondly, cats don't recognize authority,
Not even the point. Kitten stops biting, not because he was
told to, but because his experience tells him that biting is
disgusting. The same way older cat stops jumping on tabletops,
not because someone shouted NO, but because tabletop is a wet
zone - and jumping on it results in getting wet, EVERY time.
These are decisions they made for themselves, because they
don't like eating disgusting things, and don't like getting wet.
> and they don't respond to punishment as you'd expect.
But in their minds, *this wasn't punishment*, wasn't something
DONE to them, it was directly associated with the action itself.
This is why I said that spraying cat at tabletop should seem NOT
to involve the human - who may be across the room, or even in
the next room through an open doorway. If the cat ever thought
that getting wet results from jumping on tabletops WHILE THE
HUMAN IS LOOKING, the obvious dodge would be to wait until the
human ISN'T looking, or isn't there. Because the human doesn't
seem to be looking, or even nearby, when the spray hits, the
only association the cat can make is to the tabletop itself.
By the same token, if the reaction to biting is that the human
seems to do (or not do) something, as you suggest, then you're
making the human reaction the negative stimulus. I'm not. The
thing being bitten turns out to be something the kitten doesn't
want in his mouth after all. The human (me) goes on playing with
the kitten, no change in behavior, clearly not angry or hurt.
The kitten has no reason to become afraid of human contact; he
just decides that biting isn't fun. The other stuff still is.
> This isn't some "noble, independent beast romanticism;"
Well, duh.
> social reality for a cat is territory-based, and not pack-
> based, as it is for dogs and humans. If you punish a dog,
> the dog will seek to alter it behavior to please you. We
> understand that intuitively, since we, too, are pack animals.
> If you punish a cat, the cat *doesn't understand* what you
> are doing. At best, the cat knows that you're mean.
Which is why, once again, I explain wearily, I say *not* to
swat on the nose, and not to even let the cat know you had
anything to do with the water that materializes at tabletops,
let alone shout at the cat, scream at the cat, or throw the cat
in another room - which other people have said they do, meeting
no objection from you for this behavior; how very strange.
The unpleasant outcome must be associated with the cat's own
behavior, and *not* with the human's emotional (re)actions.
Action A causes unpleasantness B, all by itself, every time.
Cat, being not stupid, decides action A is counterproductive.
Meanwhile, human is minding his or her own business, off over
there someplace, clearly not involved in anything over here.
Or: human keeps playing with kitten, no stopping, no shouting.
> At worst, in this situation, the cat understands that you
> like to play really, really rough and responds in kind, making
> the cat as mean as you.
Could be, if I behaved as you falsely accuse me of doing,
rather than as I actually do.
> Lastly, cats do learn readily and elaborately. It takes
> nothing more than understanding what makes them go. What
> makes them go, far more than "punishment" or aversive
> conditioning, is positive reinforcement. Providing a cat
> with a bird-dancer or similar toy
Which the kitten or cat can safely bite, and go on believing
that it's okay to bite anything he plays with. And when the
young child comes over to play with the kitty-cat, then...
The cat ends up in the pound.
And it wasn't the cat's fault. Nor the child's.
> is a whole world different than
And here we go again, after it was already corrected, the same
misrepresentation that Sherry committed, but with less excuse:
> sticking your finger down its throat to gag it.
And again:
> Gagging a cat. It's a mean, stupid, ignorant thing to do.
Malicious lying is a mean, stupid, ignorant thing to do.
> What on earth are you thinking?
Right now I'm thinking there should be a pound for humans,
to send *them* to when their cats bite children, while the
cats go on having a good loving home instead of a cage.
> Why are you so eager to abuse your cat?
Why are you so eager to beat your wife, you venomous malicious
misrepresenting deliberately-distorting lying false accuser?
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Kelly
Reader wrote:
> Paul/ibidem <ibi...@coldcuts.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > Reader wrote:
> >> Me, I let kittens wrestle my hand, but when they bite my
> >> fingertip (which is always the closest thing to their mouths)
> >> it goes directly toward the back of their throats so that
> >> they immediately spit it out. It only takes a few times
> >> before they stop biting, because they associate it with the
> >> gag reflex.
>
> Notice that, an hour and twenty minutes *before* Paul/ibidem
> replied, I had had to answer Sherry Riddles's distortion ("You
> stick your finger down your kitten's throat") with a very clear
> correction ("No, certainly not. It's still in the mouth when the
> kitten decides he really doesn't want it any more, and 'spits it
> out' (actually opens his jaw and pushes with the tongue, pulling
> his head away). You've mistaken 'toward the back of the throat'
> (a direction of movement within the mouth) for 'down the throat'
> (much further on, and an impossibly small passage for an adult
> human finger, at least mine)"). Neverthless, Paul repeats the
> very same distortion that had just been clearly contradicted:
For the sake of argument here, and from experience with dealing with
aggressive youngsters, I find that this sort or training technique is,
actually, effective. When I've been bitten by an aggressor (usually on
the hand), instead of pulling my hand away, I push it towards that cat.
This lessens any pain on my part, and makes the cat let go immediately.
It's not cruel at all. It's only another alternative to the "Hssss...
No!" technique... or the isolation method. It's effective because
there's no punishement invovled, and the cat finds that he just doesn't
want to do it anymore!
Kelly
ibidem
> For the sake of argument here, and from experience with dealing with
> aggressive youngsters, I find that this sort or training technique is,
> actually, effective. When I've been bitten by an aggressor (usually on
> the hand), instead of pulling my hand away, I push it towards that cat.
> This lessens any pain on my part, and makes the cat let go immediately.
> It's not cruel at all. It's only another alternative to the "Hssss...
> No!" technique... or the isolation method. It's effective because
> there's no punishement invovled, and the cat finds that he just doesn't
> want to do it anymore!
>
Kelly-
This is not a friendly affable training technique. It's mean and
stupid. I expect cattle prods would work too, but would you want to use
one?
Zydeco
Reader wrote:
>
> > You actually *gag* a kitten with your finger, for punishment?
> > What a mean, nasty thing to do.
>
> To "gag" someone is to tie a cloth around their mouth or stuff
> it inside their mouths, preventing them from making noise, and
> possibly even impairing their breathing. It would certainly be
> a "mean, nasty thing to do" - but since I did no such thing, it
> has no bearing here. You are playing word games in order to
> create false accusations.
>
With all due respect, *you* were the one who used the word "gag" in your
first post. Paul and Sherry didn't come up with the term, you did...
--
Best Regards,
Connie
Visit & Sign My Guestbook @
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=145752
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A true cat lover cradles a new kitten
and knows that nine lives will never
be nearly enough... " -Unknown
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rechelle Blair
finger down the throat but there are other, more effective ways to teach
them. You are truly an idiot and I hope (oh man how I hope) that you
are nothing more than a troll, since we haven't seen you here before.
Krazee4Katz
This teaches them that they are toys. Sure, cute when they are 8 weeks old,
not so when they are 2 years old.
Reader <s_a_jorda...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0edb3b2e...@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com...
> srid...@aol.com (SRiddles) wrote:
> >> Me, I let kittens wrestle my hand, but when they bite my
> >> fingertip (which is always the closest thing to their mouths)
> >> it goes directly toward the back of their throats so that
> >> they immediately spit it out. It only takes a few times
> >> before they stop biting, because they associate it with the
> >> gag reflex.
> >
> > You stick your finger down your kitten's throat.
>
> No, certainly not. It's still in the mouth when the kitten
> decides he really doesn't want it any more, and "spits it out"
> (actually opens his jaw and pushes with the tongue, pulling
> his head away). You've mistaken "toward the back of the throat"
> (a direction of movement within the mouth) for "down the throat"
> (much further on, and an impossibly small passage for an adult
> human finger, at least mine).
>
> > I think this is an extremely cruel method.
>
> Not at all. I'm certainly not forcing my finger anywhere, just
> making it unappetizing so that the kitten stops thinking it's
> something worth biting. As I said, it may take a few times to
> work - because the kitten immediately resumes wrestling, that's
> how little it affects him. All it does is discourage biting.
>
> Do you consider allowing a cat to grow up biting, until it bites
> a child & is taken away by animal authorities, to be LESS cruel?
>
> > Also, cats should *never* be physically hit.
>
> Did you *read* the following?
>
> "Other things 'work', but have side-effects that you don't want.
> .. Swatting on the nose 'works' - but may alienate the kitten
> too: you *don't* want him to associate pain with a human hand
> reaching for him, or he'll be afraid when you try to pet him."
>
> As for "swatting the rump": after your "down the throat" reading
> of my other comment, I fear that you think "swatting" means
> "hitting full force with a fist". It doesn't. That could kill or
> seriously injure a cat. Cats bat *each other* with their paws,
> and that's about as hard as "swatting" should be - because you
> are "mama cat" to your cats, and this is cat-speak for "STOP
> THAT RIGHT NOW!". Cats understand it, and you must be understood.
> But all it takes is the fingertips on the palm-side of an open
> hand. You might hit your piano keys harder during a crescendo.
> The batting *motion* communicates more than the actual "swat",
> and the cat's rump is in no danger of being injured by it.
>
> As I said, I reserve this for breaking up cat-fights, when the
> cats are far more likely to hurt each other than I am to hurt
> any of them. It would be more "cruel" to NOT break it up.
>
>
>
> (Ads below were instered by RemarQ.)
Kelly
ibidem wrote:
It's not mean and stupid!! It would be if your hand went down the cats
throat, OF COURSE! But the cat is expecting you to PULL AWAY... if you don't
and do the opposite, it loosens the grip of the cats biting significantly,
and the cat let's go. I wouldn't recommend this for first time owner's....
but I use it once in awhile to discourage biting in my cats. If you pull
your hand away quickly and say "oowwwww"... this can be effective... but you
will get cut up in the process by the cats teeth.
Kelly
Kelly
with your hands. The best method is to substitude your hand with an appropriate
toy.
Kelly
Rechelle Blair
This is great in theory. :-) Cindy & Ebby don't play with our hands because we've
taught them they aren't toys. Shadow, no matter what we do, insists that our hands,
arms, feet, legs & ankles are toys. He never bites to hurt us, but if we don't do
something he wants us to, he attacks (wraps his legs) around our arms & bites down.
Any suggestions? It's getting frustrating. We've tried removing him, telling him
firmly "NO", discouraging with another toy, even cayenne pepper on our arms. It
doesn't work!
Help please!!!
Cheers,
Rechelle
Kelly
theory" and whenever he would get wild, she would give him a 10 minute time out in a
room alone.
Does your Shadow get "wild" when he starts to do this? Or is it just a surprise ambush?
Kelly
Rechelle Blair
come back to Earth and attack. He's a sweet cat but can be hard to control. I've tried the
time outs, they haven't worked either.
Cheers,
Rechelle
SRiddles
To try to answer your question, I still do not believe that the human hand
should ever be associated with punishment, whether it be gagging or swatting.
Hands are for petting only. A water bottle set on "mist" ) is just as
unpleasant to that kitten. Time-out has worked for some. No, I certainly do not
believe a kitten should be allowed to bite. I just prefer other methods to
break the habit.
Sherry
S.B.Zampella
the corner of the cat's mouth at the jaw junction makes them spit it out
and decide it's not fun because they are no longer able to clamp down,
the mouth is being held open. this isn't gagging the cat, it isn't
sticking a finger down it's throat, it isn't cruel, it IS effective. It
isn't even punishment -- conditioning that these things are too big for
my mouth.
I used to enjoy this group but the unbased name calling is really
getting out of hand
Rechelle Blair
haven't tapped his nose at all because I'm afraid to hurt him, but I'm getting
frustrated. I'ld never get rid of him, so that's not anything to worry about
with him. I love him to death. But what on earth can I do????
Krazee4Katz wrote:
> Have you squirted him when he does this? I've never had one of mine do
> this.
>
> Rechelle Blair <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote in message
> news:3974A4EA...@swbell.net...
> > > > > srid...@aol.com (SRiddles) wrote:
> > > > > >> Me, I let kittens wrestle my hand, but when they bite my
> > > > > >> fingertip (which is always the closest thing to their mouths)
> > > > > >> it goes directly toward the back of their throats so that
> > > > > >> they immediately spit it out. It only takes a few times
> > > > > >> before they stop biting, because they associate it with the
> > > > > >> gag reflex.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You stick your finger down your kitten's throat.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, certainly not. It's still in the mouth when the kitten
> > > > > decides he really doesn't want it any more, and "spits it out"
> > > > > (actually opens his jaw and pushes with the tongue, pulling
> > > > > his head away). You've mistaken "toward the back of the throat"
> > > > > (a direction of movement within the mouth) for "down the throat"
> > > > > (much further on, and an impossibly small passage for an adult
> > > > > (Ads below were instered by RemarQ.)
Rechelle Blair
being at that part, but going into the throat does bother me. Truthfully,
he's lucky he hasn't been hurt worse by the cat *clamping* down on it. To
think that the cat *wouldn't* close their mouthes makes me think that he is a
troll and an idiot. I don't think that's name calling but a fact.
Cheers,
Rechelle
Rechelle Blair
one that I have no idea. Most Pixie bob's are supposed to be tame, but I wonder if it's closer to
the bobcat side if they'ld have more "wild" personalities? Something for me to research I guess.
Kelly wrote:
> Now that can be really tough, because there are no signs and it comes as a complete surprise.
> You have me stumped Rechelle!
>
> Kelly
e...@nickennui.net
be substituting something for hands, but
all of mine have learned on their own to be
gentle with hands.
And when hands are under the covers playing
with them, oh boy! they can be treated rougher.
One of my girls decided it was finally time
for _me to feed her kittens. She awoke me with
a SHARP chomp on the nose. Over time, she has
learned, the teeth and paw claws can be employed,
and should be, gently to accomplish her purposes.
She zoned in and learned what caused an ow in her
person.
They learn to play gently with hands.
Rechelle Blair
him, time outs, removing him, yelling OW!, cayenne pepper was a desperate measure and it didn't work
either. *sigh*
On top of everything else I got hacked just a little while ago. I'm missing programs in my hard drive
even.
Kelly wrote:
> What has your vet suggested? Does he ambush your other cats as well?
Reader
> Reader wrote:
>>> You actually *gag* a kitten with your finger, for
>>> punishment? What a mean, nasty thing to do.
>>
>> To "gag" someone is to tie a cloth around their mouth or
>> stuff it inside their mouths, preventing them from making
>> noise, and possibly even impairing their breathing. It would
>> certainly be a "mean, nasty thing to do" - but since I did
>> no such thing, it has no bearing here. You are playing word
>> games in order to create false accusations.
>
> "gag" in your first post. Paul and Sherry didn't come up
> with the term, you did...
Connie, I referred to "gag reflex", where "gag" is an
intransitive verb meaning what one does with one's OWN
mouth-area to keep something out of the throat. Paul's
word-game was to say that I "gag" a kitten - but this is
a *transitive* verb meaning what you do to someone ELSE
(to wrap or stuff the mouth so that one cannot make noise
or breathe through the mouth). Not the same thing at all.
That is as much of a misrepresentation as to accuse a
photographer (who has "shot" pictures of models) of firing
a gun at them, because that is another meaning of "shoot".
He has also, repeatedly, stated that I put a finger "down
the throat" of a kitten - which is impossible unless I have
fingers the width of spaghetti strands - despite my repeatedly
pointing out that this is neither what I did nor what I said.
Indeed, how could the kitten have pushed the tip out with his
tongue if it were that far back? To pill a cat, you need only
get the pill past the "hump" in the tongue, on the downslope
toward the throat, not even IN the throat, then the cat cannot
push it out. It's the *outer* side of that hump, only halfway
from front teeth to throat, nowhere near the throat yet, where
improperly placed pills get "spat out" (pushed out by tongue).
You don't want pills "spat out", but you DO want your fingertip
"spat out" - so you don't put it any farther than that. If Paul
had ever pilled a cat, he'd know this. If he has the faintest
idea of even his OWN anatomy, he can't possibly think that
something IN THE MOUTH, moving "TOWARD" the throat - and then
being "spat out", has somehow managed to get not only INTO the
throat but actually DOWN it. That would be like describing your
normal tooth-brushing as "scrubbing the larynx", a completely
different stretch of tract. So either he's the sort of idiot
who cannot tell the difference between mouth and throat, or he's
the sort of maliciously dishonest person who is determined to
level false accusations even after being corrected about them.
In either case, he is not someone I would ever trust for advice.
Reader
> Face it Reader, you're wrong.
You mean halfway into the mouth constitutes "down the throat"?
Touching the middle of the tongue (in front of the big hump)
constitutes going PAST that hump, PAST the uvula, take a
right-angle turn downwards, and straight on until morning?
What kind of anatomical ignorami write on this board?
> I know you didn't purposefully stick your finger down the
> throat
Correct. Nor accidentally, nor in any other way. An adult human
finger isn't going to *FIT* inside a kitten's throat, anyway.
Who, ever having *seen* a kitten, would believe that it could?
I keep pointing out that the entire object of the exercise is
to have the kitten "spit out" the fingertip by pushing it away
with his tongue. This can only happen if the fingertip is on
the *outer* side of the tongue's hump, no more than halfway into
the mouth, nowhere near the throat opening. The fingertip gets
"spat out" in exactly the same way that an improperly placed
pill does. A *properly* placed pill has to go past that hump,
so that a cat *cannot* push it back out - but since you WANT
YOUR FINGERTIP SPAT OUT, you never go that far back.
Despite repeated corrections, you and Sherry and Paul have kept
misrepresenting a DIRECTION IN THE MOUTH ("toward the back of
the throat") as a LOCATION ("in the throat", "down the throat"),
which is like saying that when you drive north TOWARD the Pole
Star, you actually leave the Earth, travel several hundred light
years, and plunge INTO the star Polaris. "Toward" isn't "Into".
> You are truly an idiot
Well, take a few steps TOWARD your nearest body of water, lake
or whatever. I say this, knowing that you will interpret it as
telling you to go jump INTO it.
Reader
> You should not be playing with kittens with your hands in the
> first place. This teaches them that they are toys. Sure, cute
> when they are 8 weeks old, not so when they are 2 years old.
As a matter of fact, just now my youngest *is* 2 years old,
feisty as an Irishman, and I still 'rassle him every day. He
doesn't need as much wrestling as when he was younger, but he
still wants some, and then he settles down. He still knows
not to bite or claw when playing, and this is important for me
to be sure of, for his sake and that of other human beings.
None of my cats have ever bitten or clawed an infant or child,
and I intend it to stay that way.
Seamus doesn't 'rassle when standing, sitting, or in Sphinx
position, by the way. He approaches your hand and lies on his
side or back facing it, so that all four paws come into play -
like a cat frozen in fierce mid-pounce and laid down sideways -
that's his 'rassle-me! signal, and the way to signal acceptance
is to put fingers toward belly like another kitten with paws
toward him. He'll take a tender grip - pull with the upper paws,
push with the lower. Make your move, a "tickle-ribs" motion, and
the 'rassling begins. It's as formal as a dojo match. He doesn't
"attack" an innocent bystander.
When he's had enough 'rassle, he starts washing your hand, and
you start fingertip-"washing" his face. Mutual grooming time.
What, in your view, is *wrong* with hand-playing, as long as
the cat *does* know not to bite or claw?
Reader
> Krazee & Kelly,
> This is great in theory. :-)
That's the problem with so many theories. That's all they are.
> Shadow, no matter what we do, insists that our hands, arms,
> feet, legs & ankles are toys. He never bites to hurt us, but
> if we don't do something he wants us to, he attacks (wraps his
> legs) around our arms & bites down. Any suggestions?
Yeah, but you don't think it's "nice", so good luck.
> It's getting frustrating.
How about that.
But be brave, be strong, be firm, never surrender a bright
shining theory merely because it doesn't work in practice.
And be sure to righteously denounce anyone whose methods WORK.
It won't improve your cat's behavior, but you'll feel ever so
much better with a spurious sense of moral superiority.
(Ads below were inserted by RemarQ.)
Reader
> OK, here I go. Flame me if you must, but putting the bitten
> finger into the corner of the cat's mouth at the jaw junction
> makes them spit it out and decide it's not fun because they
> are no longer able to clamp down, the mouth is being held
> open. this isn't gagging the cat, it isn't sticking a finger
> down it's throat, it isn't cruel, it IS effective. It isn't
> even punishment -- conditioning that these things are too big
> for my mouth.
Precisely.
> I used to enjoy this group but the unbased name calling is
> really getting out of hand
Thank you, sincerely. It was good to see your and Kelly's posts.
Reader
> the problem is Reader puts it down their *throats*!
No, the problem is that some (either dishonest or illiterate)
people keep SAYING that I put a finger down their *throats*,
when I have repeatedly made clear that I do no such thing -
and indeed it would be *impossible* to put an adult human finger
down a kitten's throat, nor would a kitten be able to push
something out with his tongue if it had gone that far back.
Even a pill only needs to go as far as the back of the mouth,
but then a pill has a MUCH smaller diameter than a finger.
> I have no problem with it being at that part,
The back area of the mouth, which makes them spit it out. Bingo!
> but going into the throat does bother me.
Then isn't it nice that I don't go there, despite your fervid
imaginations otherwise?
> Truthfully, he's lucky he hasn't been hurt worse by the cat
> *clamping* down on it. To think that the cat *wouldn't* close
> their mouthes
They close their mouths to bite on something at the FRONT of
the mouth. When it heads *toward* the BACK of the mouth, they
suddenly don't want it there any more, and spit it out. That
is the entire point. His tongue pushes the fingertip back
out, and his teeth release the finger to LET it go out, because
the cat has stopped WANTING the finger in his mouth - despite
having been determined to get it there before. A few repetitions
and the cat decides not to bite it again. Which was the point.
> makes me think that he is a troll and an idiot.
And what sort of writer is it that deliberately misrepresents
the middle of the mouth as being "down the throat"? After this
same error has been clearly corrected over and over again?
Troll? Or idiot? You tell me.
> I don't think that's name calling but a fact.
Showing that you don't know what a fact is, any more than you
know the difference between a mouth and a throat.
This is utterly disgraceful. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Reader
> Stop toying with words and stop this nasty treatment. Or if
> you can't do that, at very least stop advocating it here.
> Sticking your finger in a cat's throat is mean and stupid.
Since YOU and Sherry and Rechelle are the ones who keep talking
about "sticking a finger in [or down] a cat's throat", despite
having been told clearly and repeatedly that I do no such thing,
the meanness and stupidity are entirely in your own minds.
The tongue cannot *push* something out from inside the throat.
The tongue can't push a pill out if it is merely past the big
hump (on the downslope *toward* the throat). Only an improperly
placed pill, eg on the *outer* side of that hump, can be pushed
out. For the fingertip to be pushed out - which is what you
want - obviously it's never going to go past the hump. This
means it never goes "in" the throat, let alone "down" the
throat, and indeed an adult human finger is far too big to
ever go "down" a kitten's throat. It has gone *toward* the
throat - describing a direction within the mouth - but you
have already been told over and over that "toward" is not
"into", yet you persist in this malicious misrepresentation.
Perhaps it's just that you don't know the difference between
a mouth and a throat, so when you brush your teeth you must
think you're scrubbing your larynx.
By now it's clear that you have never pilled a cat, because
that involves putting something farther into a cat's mouth
than this fingertip placement you call "nasty". Pilling a
cat must be doubly "nasty" in your book, so any cat whose
health requires that you pill it will just suffer or die
for lack of medication. Better that than being "nasty", eh?
Well, now that you have documented for the world your lack
of understanding about cat care, behavior and basic anatomy,
do you have any more words of wisdom to share with our readers?
> Duh.
I think that sums it up perfectly.
Krazee4Katz
this.
Rechelle Blair <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3974A4EA...@swbell.net...
> Krazee & Kelly,
>
> This is great in theory. :-) Cindy & Ebby don't play with our hands
because we've
> taught them they aren't toys. Shadow, no matter what we do, insists that
our hands,
> arms, feet, legs & ankles are toys. He never bites to hurt us, but if we
don't do
> something he wants us to, he attacks (wraps his legs) around our arms &
bites down.
> Any suggestions? It's getting frustrating. We've tried removing him,
telling him
> firmly "NO", discouraging with another toy, even cayenne pepper on our
arms. It
> doesn't work!
>
> Help please!!!
>
> Cheers,
> Rechelle
>
>
> Kelly wrote:
>
> > I totally agree and think that's the bottom line here. Don't encourage
play
> > with your hands. The best method is to substitude your hand with an
appropriate
> > toy.
> >
> > Kelly
> >
> > Krazee4Katz wrote:
> >
> > > You should not be playing with kittens with your hands in the first
place.
> > > This teaches them that they are toys. Sure, cute when they are 8
weeks old,
> > > not so when they are 2 years old.
> > >
> > > > (Ads below were instered by RemarQ.)
Kelly
You have me stumped Rechelle!
Kelly
Kelly
ibidem
>
> Connie/Zydeco <Zyde...@Home.NOcomPOST> wrote:
> > Reader wrote:
> >>> You actually *gag* a kitten with your finger, for
> >>> punishment? What a mean, nasty thing to do.
> >>
> >> To "gag" someone is to tie a cloth around their mouth or
> >> stuff it inside their mouths, preventing them from making
> >> noise, and possibly even impairing their breathing. It would
> >> certainly be a "mean, nasty thing to do" - but since I did
> >> no such thing, it has no bearing here. You are playing word
> >> games in order to create false accusations.
> >
> > With all due respect, *you* were the one who used the word
> > "gag" in your first post. Paul and Sherry didn't come up
> > with the term, you did...
>
> Connie, I referred to "gag reflex", where "gag" is an
> intransitive verb meaning what one does with one's OWN
> mouth-area to keep something out of the throat. Paul's
> word-game was to say that I "gag" a kitten - but this is
> a *transitive* verb meaning what you do to someone ELSE
> (to wrap or stuff the mouth so that one cannot make noise
> or breathe through the mouth). Not the same thing at all.
"Gag- to cause to retch or choke;" that's the first definition in my
Webster's and it's precisely what you're doing, shoving your finger in a
cat's mouth. Getting coy with words is not going to redeem this mean
treatment.
Someone is certainly playing with words, but it's not me. Gagging a
kitten with your finger is what you're talking about, and it is indeed a
mean, stupid thing to do.
ibidem
>
> Rechelle Blair wrote:
> > Face it Reader, you're wrong.
>
The point is that this exercise is mean and unnecessary. Stop toying
with words and stop this nasty treatment. Or if you can't do that, at
very least stop advocating it here. Sticking your finger in a cat's
throat is mean and stupid. Duh.
ibidem
> OK, here I go. Flame me if you must, but putting the bitten finger into
> the corner of the cat's mouth at the jaw junction makes them spit it out
> and decide it's not fun because they are no longer able to clamp down,
> the mouth is being held open. this isn't gagging the cat, it isn't
> sticking a finger down it's throat, it isn't cruel, it IS effective. It
> isn't even punishment -- conditioning that these things are too big for
> my mouth.
I'd have a lot less trouble with this than will sticking a finger into.
Aversive conditioning can be effective, but cats respond readily to
gentler means. I think the most effective means of all to teach a kitten
not to bite is another kitten- both of them learn right now how sharp
those little teeth are, and it tempers their aggression.
I might mutter and grumble, but this strategy sounds workable if your
fingers are tough enough and you don't slip and gag the critter.
I like it too that you recognize it as conditioning and not punishment.
I shudder when people talk about punishing cats.
Reader
> "Gag- to cause to retch or choke;" that's the first definition
> in my Webster's and it's precisely what you're doing,
No, I've told you, the kitten "spits out" the finger by pushing
it out with his tongue and pulling his head away. No retching.
No choking. Since these terms in your definition are not met,
you have used a word which does not apply to the situation.
> shoving your finger in a cat's mouth.
At least you are no longer saying "in a cat's throat". I suppose
I should be grateful for this tiny progress after having had to
correct you so many times.
But I didn't "shove my finger in a cat's mouth", either. Did you
miss the part about the *cat* having bitten the finger, thereby
putting it in his *own* mouth? I merely push instead of pull,
and that push is gentle enough that the cat quickly overcomes it
by pushing the finger back out again with his tongue. Must I
explain to you how very little pressure a cat's tongue can push]
with, and therefore how very little pressure the fingertip was
pushing with? This *has* to be a very gentle procedure, or the
immediate objective (getting the cat to spit it out) would fail.
All of this should have been evident to you with just a little
bit of thought. Instead, you yammered on and on, ignoring all
correction, insistent upon your completely false version of
events. I am not impressed.
> Getting coy with words is not going to redeem this mean
> treatment.
The coyness is all yours. Even though you've changed your
accusation from "throat" to "mouth", you have never retracted
the original accusation, which you must know by now was false.
> Someone is certainly playing with words, but it's not me.
It is you-plural, you and Sherry and Rechelle. Your coyness
with words keeps you from using the right pronoun - "us" -
as in: "... but it's not [just] me, it was all three of us."
> Gagging a kitten with your finger is what you're talking
> about, and it is indeed a mean, stupid thing to do.
See above. No retching, no choking. Therefore, no "gagging".
This making a cat spit a fingertip out is less intrusive than
pilling a cat. Do you consider pilling a cat "mean and stupid",
or "nasty"? I sincerely hope your cats never need you to give
them their medications in pill form, then. For their sakes.
(Ads below were inserted by RemarQ.)
e...@nickennui.net
SRiddles
>>> Me, I let kittens wrestle my hand, but when they bite my
>>> fingertip (which is always the closest thing to their mouths)
>>> it goes directly toward the back of their throats so that
>>> they immediately spit it out. It only takes a few times
>>> before they stop biting, because they associate it with the
>>> gag reflex.
(snipped)
>
>To "gag" someone is to tie a cloth around their mouth or stuff
>it inside their mouths, preventing them from making noise, and
>possibly even impairing their breathing. It would certainly be
>a "mean, nasty thing to do" - but since I did no such thing, it
>has no bearing here. You are playing word games in order to
>create false accusations.
No one is playing word games. These are *your* words. And "gagging" is
something that triggers the gag reflex. But, for the benefit of others reading,
this is the gist. Try the time-out method, ignoring the kitten and ceasing play
first. For the more serious biter, try the water bottle. And again, I'll
repeat. Human hands are for stroking and petting, not punishment.
Sherry
Kelly
busy playing with other things so he doesn't have time to ambush you! Hehe. That sucks about your
computer.... it amazes me what people take the time to do, to make the lives of others difficult.
Kelly
Hopitus
younger ones are *not* kittens - haven't had kittens here in many years.
When human/cat play gets rough from cat's end, and biting occurs - sometimes
hard enough to hurt but never skin-breaking biting, all it takes to get them
to release (and usually run off) is fairly loud, "No! Hurt Mama(whomever)!"
I think during tummy-tickling/rubbing and playing "Who's under the sheet?"
while making beds, they just get carried away with the action.
--
You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave..........
Laissez le bon temps rouler!
.........
"Rechelle Blair" <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:397519A8...@swbell.net...
: Yep, he loves water, so it doesn't faze him. He's one tough cookie!!! I
: haven't tapped his nose at all because I'm afraid to hurt him, but I'm
getting
: frustrated. I'ld never get rid of him, so that's not anything to worry
about
: with him. I love him to death. But what on earth can I do????
:
:
:
:
: Krazee4Katz wrote:
:
: > Have you squirted him when he does this? I've never had one of mine do
: > this.
: >
: > Rechelle Blair <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote in message
: > news:3974A4EA...@swbell.net...
: > > Krazee & Kelly,
: > > > > >
: > >
:
Krazee4Katz
cats that your hands are toys. If they don't bite or scratch you when
"wrestling", what exactly do they do? That is what playing is all about!
Reader <s_a_jorda...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:1ee7561b...@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com...
> "Krazee4Katz" <kke...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > You should not be playing with kittens with your hands in the
> > first place. This teaches them that they are toys. Sure, cute
> > when they are 8 weeks old, not so when they are 2 years old.
>
> As a matter of fact, just now my youngest *is* 2 years old,
> feisty as an Irishman, and I still 'rassle him every day. He
> doesn't need as much wrestling as when he was younger, but he
> still wants some, and then he settles down. He still knows
> not to bite or claw when playing, and this is important for me
> to be sure of, for his sake and that of other human beings.
>
> None of my cats have ever bitten or clawed an infant or child,
> and I intend it to stay that way.
>
> Seamus doesn't 'rassle when standing, sitting, or in Sphinx
> position, by the way. He approaches your hand and lies on his
> side or back facing it, so that all four paws come into play -
> like a cat frozen in fierce mid-pounce and laid down sideways -
> that's his 'rassle-me! signal, and the way to signal acceptance
> is to put fingers toward belly like another kitten with paws
> toward him. He'll take a tender grip - pull with the upper paws,
> push with the lower. Make your move, a "tickle-ribs" motion, and
> the 'rassling begins. It's as formal as a dojo match. He doesn't
> "attack" an innocent bystander.
>
> When he's had enough 'rassle, he starts washing your hand, and
> you start fingertip-"washing" his face. Mutual grooming time.
>
> What, in your view, is *wrong* with hand-playing, as long as
> the cat *does* know not to bite or claw?
>
>
>
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>What is wrong with hand playing is exactly as I said below. It teaches the
>cats that your hands are toys. If they don't bite or scratch you when
>"wrestling", what exactly do they do? That is what playing is all about!
Playing with a kitten with your hands is what playing is all about.
Yes they bite sometimes, certainly you get scratched once in a while.
--
Bob.
What should you do when you see an endangered animal eating an
endangered plant?
Reader
> What is wrong with hand playing is exactly as I said below.
> It teaches the cats that your hands are toys.
Mmmmmm, more like "playmates". As if the hands were kittens too.
But again, what's wrong with that?
Since my hands obey cat courtesy rules - offer fingertip at
nose height for sniffing (as if it were another kitten's nose)
BEFORE petting (face first, as if a cat were lick-washing) -
they get courtesy back. Unless they play "mouse" instead....
> If they don't bite or scratch you when "wrestling", what
> exactly do they do? That is what playing is all about!
Ummm, no. Cats can wrestle *without* biting or scratching, and
in *this* house that is what is required. Their front paws curl
around the hand to grip - no claws - and their back paws push
and kick - no claws. Their "ferocious" "threatening" expression
involves baring the teeth, but the teeth do not touch flesh.
Cats are perfectly able to learn from *consistent* experience
of unpleasant (again, *not* painful!) consequences *directly*
and *immediately* tied to actions. Flesh-clawing paws get
caught, flesh-biting jaws get "YUCK-spit-it-OUT", and tabletops
are where you get wet. It's automatic enough to be perceived as
cause-and-effect, not any human's on-and-off response.
(Ads below were added by RemarQ.)
Reader
> "gagging" is something that triggers the gag reflex.
Such as pilling the cat. So you would *never* do that, right?
(Ads below were inserted by RemarQ.)
ibidem
>
> srid...@aol.com (SRiddles) wrote:
> > "gagging" is something that triggers the gag reflex.
>
> Such as pilling the cat. So you would *never* do that, right?
Medicating a cat is not trivial; choking it with a finger because its
playing is not only trivial, its mean and stupid. Hey. I've heard that
before.
ibidem
>
> Cats are perfectly able to learn from *consistent* experience
> of unpleasant (again, *not* painful!) consequences *directly*
> and *immediately* tied to actions. Flesh-clawing paws get
> caught, flesh-biting jaws get "YUCK-spit-it-OUT", and tabletops
> are where you get wet. It's automatic enough to be perceived as
> cause-and-effect, not any human's on-and-off response.
Cats learn far more readily from positive reinforcement. Gagging a cat
with a finger (oh excuse me provoking a "pain-free" "gag reflex" with a
finger down the throat) is mean and stupid. Why would you want to do
something like this? Don't you like cats?
SRiddles
kitten who *didn't* play-bite, and I also can say that I've never had a kitten
grow up to be a viscious, biting, attack-kitty because of it. The experience I
was writing from, is an elderly couple who adopted a kitten. The lady had a
condition which caused her skin to be quite brittle and easily broken. So
kitty-biting for *them* was a problem more so than for any of us. Personally, I
think the kitten would have eventually grown out of it past kittenhood. But
with their situation, they needed a solution fast. Only one of my geezer cats
liked to bite. It was his signal to say "you can stop petting me now."
Sherry
Bob Brenchley.
>Well, in many years of owning kittens/cats...I can't say that I've ever had a
>kitten who *didn't* play-bite, and I also can say that I've never had a kitten
>grow up to be a viscious, biting, attack-kitty because of it. The experience I
>was writing from, is an elderly couple who adopted a kitten. The lady had a
>condition which caused her skin to be quite brittle and easily broken. So
>kitty-biting for *them* was a problem more so than for any of us. Personally, I
>think the kitten would have eventually grown out of it past kittenhood. But
>with their situation, they needed a solution fast. Only one of my geezer cats
>liked to bite. It was his signal to say "you can stop petting me now."
>
>Sherry
100% agree.
--
Bob.
They say the grass is greener on the other side, but have you ever
flipped it over?
SRiddles
>
>> "gagging" is something that triggers the gag reflex.
>
>Such as pilling the cat. So you would *never* do that, right?
>
Sure I pill my cats. And you can bet, by about the third day, they're running
from me....Which tells me that it's a most unpleasant experience that they
would like to avoid at all costs. And what I really hate is, they don't
understand *why* I'm sticking a pill down their throats, they just know I'm
being mean to them. Extreme situations, like illness, calls for extreme
measures, like pilling. If I could get them well using another method, I
would.... Kitten-biting, on the other hand, doesn't call for extreme measures,
and there are other methods that work.... If time-out works, and you have the
patience to try it, why not try it first?
Sherry
SRiddles
>playing is not only trivial, its mean and stupid. Hey. I've heard that
>before.
>Paul
> *the one formerly known as konengro*
>
>
>
didn't say it as well.
Sherry
Krazee4Katz
your hands and let them have real play with toys meant for this type of
thing.
If you think hands substitute for a playmate, you are sorely mistaken.
Reader <s_a_jorda...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:27562553...@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com...
> "Krazee4Katz" <kke...@home.com> wrote:
> > What is wrong with hand playing is exactly as I said below.
> > It teaches the cats that your hands are toys.
>
> Mmmmmm, more like "playmates". As if the hands were kittens too.
>
> But again, what's wrong with that?
>
> Since my hands obey cat courtesy rules - offer fingertip at
> nose height for sniffing (as if it were another kitten's nose)
> BEFORE petting (face first, as if a cat were lick-washing) -
> they get courtesy back. Unless they play "mouse" instead....
>
> > If they don't bite or scratch you when "wrestling", what
> > exactly do they do? That is what playing is all about!
>
> Ummm, no. Cats can wrestle *without* biting or scratching, and
> in *this* house that is what is required. Their front paws curl
> around the hand to grip - no claws - and their back paws push
> and kick - no claws. Their "ferocious" "threatening" expression
> involves baring the teeth, but the teeth do not touch flesh.
>
> Cats are perfectly able to learn from *consistent* experience
> of unpleasant (again, *not* painful!) consequences *directly*
> and *immediately* tied to actions. Flesh-clawing paws get
> caught, flesh-biting jaws get "YUCK-spit-it-OUT", and tabletops
> are where you get wet. It's automatic enough to be perceived as
> cause-and-effect, not any human's on-and-off response.
>
>
> (Ads below were added by RemarQ.)
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>Instead of all these rules and training, it would be easier to just not use
>your hands and let them have real play with toys meant for this type of
>thing.
>
>If you think hands substitute for a playmate, you are sorely mistaken.
But HANDS are the most important toy you have to play with your kitty
with.
--
Bob.
I shall now ask my colleague to tell you how good I am at delegating.
Kelly
Bob Brenchley. wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:49:38 GMT, "Krazee4Katz" <kke...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Instead of all these rules and training, it would be easier to just not use
> >your hands and let them have real play with toys meant for this type of
> >thing.
> >
> >If you think hands substitute for a playmate, you are sorely mistaken.
>
> But HANDS are the most important toy you have to play with your kitty
> with.
Playing with your kitty with JUST your hands teaches bad manners and biting.
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>
>
>Bob Brenchley. wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:49:38 GMT, "Krazee4Katz" <kke...@home.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Instead of all these rules and training, it would be easier to just not use
>> >your hands and let them have real play with toys meant for this type of
>> >thing.
>> >
>> >If you think hands substitute for a playmate, you are sorely mistaken.
>>
>> But HANDS are the most important toy you have to play with your kitty
>> with.
>
>Playing with your kitty with JUST your hands teaches bad manners and biting.
>
What total, unadulterated, hogwash.
Your hands at the most important contact point between you and the
cat. Playing with them, even quite ruffly at time, with your hands is
something every cat lover does. Yes, once in a while I'll have the odd
scratch to show for it, but that is part of having a cat as a pet.
--
Bob.
Looking forward to the start of the new millennium on January 1st
2001.
Sally Jackson
>
>
>Bob Brenchley. wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:49:38 GMT, "Krazee4Katz" <kke...@home.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Instead of all these rules and training, it would be easier to just not use
>> >your hands and let them have real play with toys meant for this type of
>> >thing.
>> >
>> >If you think hands substitute for a playmate, you are sorely mistaken.
>>
>> But HANDS are the most important toy you have to play with your kitty
>> with.
>
>Playing with your kitty with JUST your hands teaches bad manners and biting.
>
How do you work that out Kelly?
SallyJ.
Reader
> Medicating a cat is not trivial;
Putting something *down its throat* - that's what you called
mean, stupid, nasty, and so forth. That it helps not harms
the cat's health and longevity is not a factor you've been
considering in other cases, so you're being inconsistent now.
> choking it with a finger because its playing is not only
> trivial, its mean and stupid. Hey. I've heard that before.
Take that up with someone who *chokes* a cat, then - or who
*strangles*, *garrottes*, or *hangs* a cat, none of which I do.
You keep making up accusations out of thin air.
.
.
Reader
> Gagging a cat ... with a finger down the throat is mean
> and stupid. Why would you want to do something like this?
To make up an accusation about putting a finger down the throat
was mean and stupid, since this was never done. To keep making
the same accusation AFTER being repeatedly corrected on it goes
beyond mean and stupid, to pathologically dishonest.
> Don't you like cats?
Yes, I do. Therefore no cat I raise is EVER going to be put in
a pound, a sick-ward cage, an euthanasia chamber, or an autopsy
lab for rabies/pathology test, because it bit or clawed someone.
That this EVER happens to cats is due chiefly to people like you.
ibidem
>
> Paul / ibidem <ibi...@coldcuts.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > Gagging a cat ... with a finger down the throat is mean
> > and stupid. Why would you want to do something like this?
>
> To make up an accusation about putting a finger down the throat
> was mean and stupid, since this was never done. To keep making
> the same accusation AFTER being repeatedly corrected on it goes
> beyond mean and stupid, to pathologically dishonest.
Niether made up, nor an accusation. You used the word gag; you're the
one putting a finger in a playful kitten's mouth deep enough to gag it.
The correct thing to do is to avoid this mean (and stupid) practice. No
amount of waffling and verbal dodging is going to dispel the fact that
this is a mean and unnecessary thing to do.
>Yes, I do. Therefore no cat I raise is EVER going to be put in
>a pound, a sick-ward cage, an euthanasia chamber, or an autopsy
>lab for rabies/pathology test, because it bit or clawed someone.
>That this EVER happens to cats is due chiefly to people like you.
I'm afraid this response is to rabid for any reasonable reply. Stop
gagging you cat with your fingers, will you? There are kinder and more
effective means to discourage play biting.
ibidem
>
> Putting something *down its throat* - that's what you called
> mean, stupid, nasty, and so forth. That it helps not harms
> the cat's health and longevity is not a factor you've been
> considering in other cases, so you're being inconsistent now.
Indeed I am not. Putting a finger down a cat's throat doesn't help a
cat's health and longevity. Medication does. Is there some way I can
explain this more clearly to you?
> > choking it with a finger because its playing is not only
> > trivial, its mean and stupid. Hey. I've heard that before.
>
> Take that up with someone who *chokes* a cat, then - or who
> *strangles*, *garrottes*, or *hangs* a cat, none of which I do.
> You keep making up accusations out of thin air.
You do, however, recommend gagging a cat with your finger for biting. I
haven't made this up; it's the reason I'm disagreeing with you and this
practice. It's mean and stupid to gag a cat with your finger. There are
gentler and more effective means to discourage play biting in a kitten.
Simply refusing to play with a kitten once it bites, and doing so
consistently, does the job nicely.
There's a distressing amount of violence in your language. Have you
ever considered this, or wondered why?
Bob Brenchley.
<s_a_jorda...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>Paul / ibidem <ibi...@coldcuts.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> Gagging a cat ... with a finger down the throat is mean
>> and stupid. Why would you want to do something like this?
>
>To make up an accusation about putting a finger down the throat
>was mean and stupid, since this was never done. To keep making
>the same accusation AFTER being repeatedly corrected on it goes
>beyond mean and stupid, to pathologically dishonest.
But that, I'm sorry to say, is Ibidem all over. He has shown, time and
again, that he is only here to pick fights with people.
>
>> Don't you like cats?
>
>Yes, I do. Therefore no cat I raise is EVER going to be put in
>a pound, a sick-ward cage, an euthanasia chamber, or an autopsy
>lab for rabies/pathology test, because it bit or clawed someone.
>
>That this EVER happens to cats is due chiefly to people like you.
--
Mirror Illusions
It's also probably a waste of time. I don't know about you but if someone
stuck a finger down my throat and gagged me I sure would make sure to bite THAT
much harder.
---
Jessica
SRiddles
There *are* kinder, gentler ways to stop a kitten from biting.
There are NO kinder, gentler ways to pill a cat.
That's just not a valid comparison.
Sherry.
>Reader wrote:
>>
>> Paul / ibidem <ibi...@coldcuts.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> > Gagging a cat ... with a finger down the throat is mean
>> > and stupid. Why would you want to do something like this?
>>
>> To make up an accusation about putting a finger down the throat
>> was mean and stupid, since this was never done. To keep making
>> the same accusation AFTER being repeatedly corrected on it goes
>> beyond mean and stupid, to pathologically dishonest.
>
> Niether made up, nor an accusation. You used the word gag; you're the
>one putting a finger in a playful kitten's mouth deep enough to gag it.
> The correct thing to do is to avoid this mean (and stupid) practice. No
>amount of waffling and verbal dodging is going to dispel the fact that
>this is a mean and unnecessary thing to do.
>
>
>>Yes, I do. Therefore no cat I raise is EVER going to be put in
>>a pound, a sick-ward cage, an euthanasia chamber, or an autopsy
>>lab for rabies/pathology test, because it bit or clawed someone.
>>That this EVER happens to cats is due chiefly to people like you.
>
> I'm afraid this response is to rabid for any reasonable reply. Stop
>gagging you cat with your fingers, will you? There are kinder and more
>effective means to discourage play biting.
Bob Brenchley.
Illusions) wrote:
I've kept out of this thread a lot to see how it developed. Once again
certain people on alt.cats have shown that they cannot read.
If a cat bites me in what I know to be play then I usually just ignore
it, keep still, and the cat gives up. If it persists I place the
nearest available finger under the jaw and gently grip.
when the cat no longer feels in control s/he soon wants to stop.
The other method is really defense by attack - moving the part of you
that is being bitten towards rather than away from the cat. This is
what is being talked about here - not shoving a finger down a cats
throat.
Now if I've been intelligent enough to follow Mr Reader's argument,
the question has to be asked - why can't everyone else?